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greatwolf
03-21-2010, 07:13 PM
Is something I'm not going to do alone. I hope others can do justice to this thread and do so without revealing too much. There may be some die hard RJ fans out there who intend to read all three books as one and we shouldn't kill all the joy for them...

Despite my misgivings, TGS had its moments off and on the battlefield. Maybe there wasn't enough. Enough battles, intrigue and action as we expected but I think the shocks more than made up for any lack in those areas.

There were several battles in TGS. Moving across Altara, Arad Doman and Saldea and the climaxing with the Battle royal between the Seanchan and the AS at Tar Valon. At least three major confrontations (though KoD had five or more) so the intensity could be considered a little less.

The plot also left enough gaps that we are left wondering what was happening in some many regions at the time of these battles. So many hints. One of the best is the fact that both Ishamael and Demandred are involved in efforts at building and directing a (the) shadow army(S) for TLB. Even the DO must be aware how the two men feel about each other. Why increase the likelyhood of them striking sparks? And what do they intend to do with those armies under their commands?

Tuon orders the long awaited strike against the AS. Making things a hundred times more difficult for the forces of light at TLB! And of course one of her major reasons for this attack is the situation on the seanchan homeland. How bad are the reports that TUon is receiving? Given the title of the next book, I expect we'll find out a lot more about this.


And Rand. A very precarious situation. He has lost the only hope he ever had of holding off the DO. And he himself is more of a tool for the shadow than anything else.


In comparism to RJ's last book (KoD) I think TGS left us flat in some areas. Rand's use of new weaves in halting the trolloc attack was a nice touch I think many of us loved. We may have missed that kind of action. And then we had Mat's fight with multiple swordsmen and his romance with the DoNM. They were rather nice. Tylee'swordplay wasn't enough to redress the balance IMO.

Perhaps BS lost an opportunity to make Egwene a much better character. While she fought well against the Seanchan, her use of the OP left much to be desired, at least IMO. She doesn't seem like the kind of character that could face one of the forsaken. She has always had her weaknesses but not since she went to the waste have they been so blatant.

It really makes me wonder if the FoL have any chance at TLB at all. Of course it may just be BS's style that makes her look so much more incompetent. Or I could be misreading the author's intent entirely but I think If all Egwene could do with the Tower's most powerful female sa'angreal is lightning and firebolts, then TG has been lost already. Or maybe BS doesn't know how to channel :p

But ToM will redress all these...;)

Spasmodean
03-21-2010, 08:04 PM
One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?

I don't know if she knows balefire, but the last thing she would want to be doing is using forbidden weaves while at the same time trying to cement herself as Amyrlin.

She was fighting flying animals and humans, neither of which have any sort of resistance to fire and lightning, the only other tool I supposed she coould have used was ice, to freeze their wings but I got the feeling that because she was having a massively cathartic episode in killing sul'dam and Seanchan in general that the tools she was using were much more visceral than what a trained Aes Sedai would use, however in other fights with AS they do generally do the hurling of fireballs and lightning strikes.

Remember that she comes from an order of women who take an Oath not to use the power as a weapon, and I imagine that inventive ways to kill people with the power is not on the novice curriculum.

greatwolf
03-21-2010, 08:49 PM
Remember that she comes from an order of women who take an Oath not to use the power as a weapon, and I imagine that inventive ways to kill people with the power is not on the novice curriculum.

Huh?

Egwene has hardly had any training by AS. That was part of what Elaida used against her. To recap, Egwene's training started with Moiraine, then the WT , and then damane training. Later she was trained by the WOs and discovered a lot of weaves while she held Moggy prisoner. As of KoD most AS considered her very capable with the OP.

So Egwene is not bound by AS customs even in nher thinking, and she has not held the oath rod. Even if she had, all AS were free to use the OP as a weapon in that attack.

The real problem is the lack of inventiveness.

If Rand had used the the weave he used in TSR to destroy those shadowspawn in KoD, it probably would have worked but KoD would have been a duller book for it. Ditto if he'd just fetcched Callandor or the CK. Very boring response. Deathgates and Blossoms of fire added something to the value of the book itself.



One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?

Hammers, clubs and cudgels :D (couldn't resist)


I got the feeling that because she was having a massively cathartic episode in killing sul'dam and Seanchan in general that the tools she was using were much more visceral than what a trained Aes Sedai would use,

I would imagine moggy had a lot of weaves that would give her visceral. Or even the seanchan themselves. Besides any AS (or even novice) could have hurled fireball and lightning if they had a sa'angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
03-22-2010, 05:21 AM
One wonders exactly what tools you think Egwene should have been using?Air.

A web woven of razor sharp strings of Air somewhere in front of a flying animal would cut it to shreds. She could tie it off and make another one, and another, and another, and they would have to keep dodging in order to survive. Yes, their damane might have been able to cut some, but Egwene knew how to invert the webs to make them invisible, and that would have reduced damane effectiveness considerably.

By using things that they could see coming Egwene made sure that the Seanchan actually had a chance to dodge or fight back.
By using fireballs she highlighted her own position each time she struck. She should have watched Monty Python's How Not To Be Seen sketch a couple of times before she got into this fight.

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 12:36 PM
apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!

Ishara
03-22-2010, 01:06 PM
apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!

Um, you do know she couldn't channel, right? She was using her circle of novies to draw the power through the sa'angreal through them.

Davian93
03-22-2010, 02:28 PM
Any weave she used could have easily been copied by the Seanchan...do you think she really wanted them getting Balefire?

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 03:23 PM
Any weave she used could have easily been copied by the Seanchan...do you think she really wanted them getting Balefire?


Even the seanchan can't see inverted weaves. And we all know Egwene can invert her weaves. But balefire isn't a new weave dav.


@Ishara

A circle of novices would give her enough of the OP to throw all the fireballs and lightnings her heart desires. Even a link with one or two women would be enough. And any saangreal would give enough to do same much less the tower's most powerful angreal. So she needed a circle or the saangreal. why both?

Ishara
03-22-2010, 03:43 PM
She needed the circle to use the sa'angreal - she couldn't have used it without them.

Once she had the circle of novices, why not ussa'angreal to augment that strength. That's like using a squirtgun when you have a supersoaler at hand. Especially in a fight to the death.

Also, inverting every weave in the heat of battle? 1. Way more work than what is necessary, thus expending more energy than is necssary, and 2. Way too complaex for common sense. Get in and get out - get the job done. Don't get fancy.

Terez
03-22-2010, 03:51 PM
Also, she does not have past life memories so I don't see why anyone would expect her to come off with something comparable to Rews al'Thorin vs. Shadowspawn.

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 04:31 PM
She needed the circle to use the sa'angreal - she couldn't have used it without them.

Once she had the circle of novices, why not ussa'angreal to augment that strength. That's like using a squirtgun when you have a supersoaler at hand. Especially in a fight to the death.

Also, inverting every weave in the heat of battle? 1. Way more work than what is necessary, thus expending more energy than is necssary, and 2. Way too complaex for common sense. Get in and get out - get the job done. Don't get fancy.


In linking, the amount of OP available is greater than what either party can hold normally. So anyone Egwene links with will provide her with more of the OP than that novice normally can hold. Imagine how much Egwene would have if links with Nicola (who is at par with her potential wise) And she keeps adding more novices to the circle. Maybe the full thirteen. That's going to make quite a bit of power available even without a saangreal thrown in. So why use the saangreal?


Dragging thirteen novices through the corridors of the WT during a battle presents clear dangers. When a shot is taken at Egwene (I assume she's always in the lead whenever the group turns a corridor) she can duck only at the expense of those behind. And they can't defend themselves. Its far too likely that someone would get hurt.

Besides, thirteen women with bthe glow of the power make a better target for the damane than one or two.

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 04:32 PM
Also, she does not have past life memories so I don't see why anyone would expect her to come off with something comparable to Rews al'Thorin vs. Shadowspawn.

Rews al'Thorin? Are you posting in your sleep again Terez?

Kimon
03-22-2010, 05:18 PM
Rews al'Thorin? Are you posting in your sleep again Terez?

duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin

Matoyak
03-22-2010, 05:32 PM
duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews TherinJust cause it makes sense doesn't mean she wasn't sleep-posting. This IS Theoryland, after all. :p

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 05:33 PM
duh...

Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin

ah, so its now merger theory?

And who says Egghead doesn't have past life memories? she sprouted the ol' tongue in EotW, and rediscovered Travelling because she'd been using it in the aol already.

She still could have made a new weave.

Terez
03-22-2010, 06:02 PM
Rews al'Thorin = Rand al'Thor + Lews Therin
Fixed.

And I was posting in class.

greatwolf
03-22-2010, 06:06 PM
spoilsport

Davian93
03-22-2010, 09:49 PM
Even the seanchan can't see inverted weaves. And we all know Egwene can invert her weaves. But balefire isn't a new weave dav.



You do realize that that it would be new to the Seanchan, don't you?

On the inverting...perhaps she didn't want to give that to every single Novice in the Tower.

nameless
03-22-2010, 10:58 PM
apparently she didn't bother to invert her weaves. Or mask her ability. Egwene had already said she thought of her capture as a penance for not doing this when she turned the harbor chain. Why is she repeating the error?

When you're marching down a corridor full of the OP, masking the ability is a damned good idea if you want the advantage of surprise. If she did that, all she would need would be the saangreal, no need for her escort of novices. And I'm mnot still sure why she needed the novices. Granted Suian used a full circle with the rod to heal Mat, but she probably needed the precision rather than brute force.

With what Egwene had, she could have made dozens or thousand (maybe millions) of ball of air which if inverted, could have knocked quite a few of the attacker from their aerial mounts. Even knocking some unconscious directly. With a massive shot like that she could clear the air with one sweep. It would be difficult for the fliers to anticipate such tactics since they are unused to the power of sa'angreal.

All in nall I think she could have done better. At least one new weave!

What would be the point of 1,000 fireballs? She couldn't see all the raken at once to target them, and as it was she shot down every one she saw and easily repelled every counterattack. The Seanchan weapon weaves she learned as a damane focus on her strength with Earth, which doesn't do much good for flying targets. By glowing like the sun instead of masking the glow she drew their fire, which was exactly what she wanted to do since she knew she could take it and the rest of the Aes Sedai who didn't have a full circle and a sa'angreal probably couldn't. Throwing random traps around in the hopes that someone might fly into one would fatigue her needlessly and since she was practically collapsing at the end of the battle even without wasting her strength it's probably a good thing she didn't.

greatwolf
03-23-2010, 12:57 AM
how come my icons are not working?? :(

greatwolf
03-23-2010, 01:13 AM
What would be the point of 1,000 fireballs? She couldn't see all the raken at once to target them, and as it was she shot down every one she saw and easily repelled every counterattack. The Seanchan weapon weaves she learned as a damane focus on her strength with Earth, which doesn't do much good for flying targets. By glowing like the sun instead of masking the glow she drew their fire, which was exactly what she wanted to do since she knew she could take it and the rest of the Aes Sedai who didn't have a full circle and a sa'angreal probably couldn't. Throwing random traps around in the hopes that someone might fly into one would fatigue her needlessly and since she was practically collapsing at the end of the battle even without wasting her strength it's probably a good thing she didn't.


Not fireballs, balls of air. We know its possible to make them very hard. And they don't attract as much notice as fireballs until they knock you on the head. For the casual observer, it seems you got hit by nothing!

Throwing a lot of them at once is like throwing some sand in the face of your opponent in a street fight: its effective no matter the size of the opponent. It also give any prisoners the SC may have captured a chance. At least more than a fireball does.


I have no idea why you think one weave takes more strength than the other. We're discussing the simplest of weaves here, not the most complex.

nameless
03-23-2010, 01:33 AM
It's the thousands at once that would take more strength than just one fireball at a time, though now that you mention it Air-based weaves would probably have been a better choice since most women don't have much natural talent for Fire, although Egwene may be an exception.

Belazamon
03-23-2010, 02:10 AM
Not fireballs, balls of air. We know its possible to make them very hard. And they don't attract as much notice as fireballs until they knock you on the head. For the casual observer, it seems you got hit by nothing!
If you hit someone with a ball of Air, it will hurt for a minute.

If you set them on fire, it will hurt for the rest of their life.

GonzoTheGreat
03-23-2010, 05:41 AM
If you hit someone with a ball of Air, it will hurt for a minute.

If you set them on fire, it will hurt for the rest of their life.But if the ball of Air knocks them off their raken, then that minute is the whole rest of their life, so the difference would be rather moot.

It is basically a variation on the cheapest way of fighting war in space:
Explode a big load of ball bearings in lower Earth orbit, so that they fly at high speeds in all directions. Any satellite in or near that orbit will be destroyed by an impact, adding shrapnel (and hence more destruction) to the mix. A disadvantage may be that you now can't put anything into orbit yourself either, because that too would be destroyed. But that is not a problem for Egwene, since she doesn't have any flying units would could be threatened by her own defense system.

Ishara
03-23-2010, 08:13 AM
ah, so its now merger theory?

And who says Egghead doesn't have past life memories? she sprouted the ol' tongue in EotW, and rediscovered Travelling because she'd been using it in the aol already.

She still could have made a new weave.

I cannot believe I am engaging you...:rolleyes:

She did NOT have a cirlce with the full 13. It CLEARLY says that. She favoured the approach of smaller circles to allow for better mobility, and yes, safety, of the novices. Her goal was not only to protect the Tower, but also prevent the novices from being captured.

And I am failing to see how you cannot understand that a supersoaker would be better than a squirtgun. Honestly. Do you need pictures?

Furthermore you have less than no proof that Egwene had been using Traveling in the Age of legends. Feeling that one can almost recognize the Old Tongue is not a guarantee of a reincarnated life. Sometimes it just resonates. Give me ONE example in 13 books that she used Traveling in the AoL.

Davian93
03-23-2010, 08:39 AM
She almost recognizes the Old Tongue because the Old Blood runs strongly in the Two Rivers...that is all.

She also NEVER spouted the Old Tongue in tEotW. She asked Mat what he had said as she "almost understood" it.

Neilbert
03-23-2010, 09:42 AM
If you hit someone with a ball of Air, it will hurt for a minute.

If you set them on fire, it will hurt for the rest of their life.

If the air is small enough, and fast enough, and hard enough, it's a bullet.

Or like... a bunch of razor blades. Fire is just so... uncreative.

I cannot believe I am engaging you...

We've all been there.

Terez
03-23-2010, 12:48 PM
We've all been there.
ignore list FTW.

nameless
03-23-2010, 02:14 PM
For a night engagement Fire has the added advantage of creating illumination around the target so you can see any other raken flying close to it and take them out too. It's not creative but it may be the best choice for the situation, although, as I said earlier, if Egwene's better at weaving Air she might have managed to stay on her feet after the fight was over if she'd used it instead of exhausting herself by playing away from her strengths.

She probably should have created some Flares while she was at it, and if she really wanted to use Air to knock out flying opponents a hurricane would be the most efficient way to go. Pity she never bothered to get Elayne to teach her weather manipulation.

Enigma
03-23-2010, 02:16 PM
On the point that Egwene could have come up with better ways to kill a few things occurr to me.

Firstly I don't think Egwene even has basic Aes Sedai combat training. I could be wrong here but the impression I had was that novice training is more aimed at teaching them to hold the source and simple weaves added with history, Aes Sedai customs etc. Its when they become Accepted that they get into the how to blow stuff up. Egwene missed Accepted training.

Second daname training makes good weaposn but again I could be wrong but I was under the impression that the early part of damane training was to break them to the will of their sul'dam and make them a 'good damane'. If that is the case they probably only graduate to how to kill in the quickest way once they are properly obedient. Egwene had some practice at setting trees on fire etc but I don't think she ever got past the breaking in part of the training when she was with the Seanchan.

The Aiel Wise Ones did not use the OP much for battle as they did not take part in battle so the weaves they would have taught her would be basic as well.

The one time she might have picked up some cool AoL weaves was from Moggy but there were two problems there. Moddy was not Asmodean who knew he had no choice but to support Rand, she gave info under duress. Secondly who could Egwene practice battle weaves in the middle of an Aes Sedai camp.

Egwene is meant to be intelligent, reasonably strong in the One Power if not forsaken level and very good in the world of dreams but more a politician that a OP warrior. In the middle of a battle its hardly the place to start to try out new weaves. I'm not a solider but I can't see any soldier wanting to go into battle and in the middle of it switching over to some new weapons he/she has never handled before and is not too sure if they will work or if they do how they will work.

Rand is a different case because he gets info dumps from LTT who knows exactly how the weaves work and what they can do.

Lastly say she did somehow have a whole lot of cool killing weaves I was under the impression that she wanted to save the Tower as a structure. Going the OP vertion of nuclear would not leave much of the WT standing.

All in all, and I can't believe I'm saying this Egwene got a passing grade on the OP battle front. She certainly did a damn sight better that a leading Green Ajah sister who herself acknowleded the that 'battle Ajah' had been badly outmatched.

nameless
03-23-2010, 02:19 PM
Agreed. Her weaves might have been crude but they got the job done.

greatwolf
03-23-2010, 05:15 PM
Furthermore you have less than no proof that Egwene had been using Traveling in the Age of legends. Feeling that one can almost recognize the Old Tongue is not a guarantee of a reincarnated life. Sometimes it just resonates. Give me ONE example in 13 books that she used Traveling in the AoL.


What happened to the sarcasm meter? The point was that Egwene was being dense and singularly unimaginative in dealing with the SC attack (why are you making me hold brief for Gonzo? :( )

You expect that if Egwene wants to draw so much of the power that she uses both a circle and a saangreal, its because she had something in mind she wanted to do with it. With greater strength in the OP that it provides will come greater precision weaving and more of the OP to draw on.

But Egwene does not need precision to make lightning and fireballs. And taking the raken one at a time doesn't need much of the OP either. So why line up the biggest artillery when all you want to do is fire a couple of bullets? Its not visceral, its more of a childish fantasy.


Many AS are unimaginative. But one tends to expect the supergirls to provide some relief. And at this point, I'd have thought that the idea was to show how much closer to being forsaken strength (more precisely forsaken skill ) that Egwene has attained. Rather it shows that Egwene is too dumb to face one of the bad guys.

If she defeats Mesaana now, Mesaana'll look really really stupid. And the rest of the forsaken go down a peg as well.


Lastly say she did somehow have a whole lot of cool killing weaves I was under the impression that she wanted to save the Tower as a structure. Going the OP vertion of nuclear would not leave much of the WT standing.


The raken where outside the tower. If Egwene doesn't mind killing AS to get to the SC, then she won't have qualms taking out everything flying outside with a weave. In fact, its the best way to satisfy the visceral thingy. Wipe out the enemy outside all at once. It de3finitely must have occurred to her to try whatever she could to stop as many as possible.


As for Egwene's training as damane, please reread TDR. Suian definitely wanted her to unlearn the things she used against the whitecloaks (and against the SC themselves in TGH).

GonzoTheGreat
03-23-2010, 05:43 PM
Egwene could have made extremely bright flashes of light, destroying the night vision of the Seanchan and their semi-birds. That would have made landing rather dangerous.

Egwene could have created huge updrafts and whirlwinds, thus making the air space very dangerous. Trying to counter that while flying would have messed things up even more, so this would be quite effective too.

Egwene could even, in theory, have started thinking about how to counter a possible Seanchan attack before it happened. She did try to warn the AS it was coming, so that they would prepare. But as far as I know, she didn't have any plans of her own ready, even though she actually believed her story.

In short, this was the Egwene we've come to know in the previous books.

Davian93
03-23-2010, 05:47 PM
This just in: Egwene is a moron...and is the most Aes Sedai of Aes Sedai in every way possible.

nameless
03-23-2010, 06:50 PM
You expect that if Egwene wants to draw so much of the power that she uses both a circle and a saangreal, its because she had something in mind she wanted to do with it. With greater strength in the OP that it provides will come greater precision weaving and more of the OP to draw on.

But Egwene does not need precision to make lightning and fireballs. And taking the raken one at a time doesn't need much of the OP either. So why line up the biggest artillery when all you want to do is fire a couple of bullets? Its not visceral, its more of a childish fantasy.

...

As for Egwene's training as damane, please reread TDR. Suian definitely wanted her to unlearn the things she used against the whitecloaks (and against the SC themselves in TGH).

Egwene needed the extra strength from the circle and sa'angreal because A) it made her unshieldable, and shielding is the first resort the Seanchan use against marath'damane and B) she was too full of forkroot to channel without it. Damane might be able to defend against ordinary fireballs but would have no chance to parry a fireball driven by a circle and a sa'angreal. As I posted before, the damane-trained weapon weaves Egwene used against the Whitecloaks are based on erupting the Earth out from under their feet and totally useless against flying targets. She could have used them against Seanchan already in the Tower but it would have damaged the Tower in the process. She didn't counter the enemy flyers with updrafts because no one ever taught her to make hurricane-force winds. Elayne, established as roughly her equal, was useless at weather before the Sea Folk tutored her, and Moghedien also claimed not to know much about the subject so she couldn't have learned it from her.

It's understandable to argue that the battle would have been more exciting if she broke out a bunch of impressive new weaves, but don't let your dissappointment that she didn't cloud your judgement. Using the sa'angreal was a good idea, even if she just used it to make fireballs. Likewise with using the circle. You can complain about her pedestrian tactics all you want but the success of those tactics speaks for itself. Egwene was the only Aes Sedai to hold her own against the attackers and single-handedly brought down dozens of raken, all the while diverting Seanchan fire away from the rest of the Tower. Three or four of her novices died IIRC, meaning that her kill ratio was in excess of 20:1.

greatwolf
03-23-2010, 07:24 PM
Using the sa'angreal was a good idea, even if she just used it to make fireballs. Likewise with using the circle. You can complain about her pedestrian tactics all you want but the success of those tactics speaks for itself. Egwene was the only Aes Sedai to hold her own against the attackers and single-handedly brought down dozens of raken, all the while diverting Seanchan fire away from the rest of the Tower. Three or four of her novices died IIRC, meaning that her kill ratio was in excess of 20:1.


Never mind the fact she could have done much much better or that if she'd succeeded in destroying the raken outside the tower, fewer initiates would have been taken away and the AS might have captured a few of the attackers instead. Lets just be thankful she did what any novice could have done with a saangreal. Right?

I've defended Egwene before, but I have to admit she was a serious let down in this area. I expected more, a lot more.

To nipick a little, how much stronger would Egwene have been with saangreal and circle? Elayne had an angreal that made her twice nyn's strength. And it wasn't the strongest or a sa'angreal. And it wasn't in a circle. Consider the multiplier factor.

shielding is a poor arguement for using the saangreal. she was already holding the OP and in a circle besides. The damane would need to be strong enough and they can't link. So a circle was enough.

nameless
03-24-2010, 01:26 AM
A circle of 7 or 8 Aes Sedai would definitely protect her from shielding by even the strongest damane even with the forkroot, but except for Nicola most of the novices were still very weak and their Power alone might not have been sufficient. Remember that Egwene's own strength is not a factor because by her estimate the forkroot left her too weak to blow out a candle, let alone hold off a shield.

Ishara
03-24-2010, 08:05 AM
Egwene is meant to be intelligent, reasonably strong in the One Power if not forsaken level and very good in the world of dreams but more a politician that a OP warrior. In the middle of a battle its hardly the place to start to try out new weaves. I'm not a solider but I can't see any soldier wanting to go into battle and in the middle of it switching over to some new weapons he/she has never handled before and is not too sure if they will work or if they do how they will work.
This. Exactly this.
What happened to the sarcasm meter? The point was that Egwene was being dense and singularly unimaginative in dealing with the SC attack (why are you making me hold brief for Gonzo? :( ))
I take everything you say seriously because you make it sound like gospel. I'm too busy having my brain ooze from my ears to consider that you're joking - which I still don't think.

You expect that if Egwene wants to draw so much of the power that she uses both a circle and a saangreal, its because she had something in mind she wanted to do with it. With greater strength in the OP that it provides will come greater precision weaving and more of the OP to draw on.

But Egwene does not need precision to make lightning and fireballs. And taking the raken one at a time doesn't need much of the OP either. So why line up the biggest artillery when all you want to do is fire a couple of bullets? Its not visceral, its more of a childish fantasy.
You know what else comes with great power? Great responsibility. To those around around her, primarily the novices. Also, great strength. No need for precision in the heat of that kind of battle. Just knock 'em down and keep doing it until they stop coming.

As for Egwene's training as damane, please reread TDR. Suian definitely wanted her to unlearn the things she used against the whitecloaks (and against the SC themselves in TGH). Le sigh. What did she do to the Whitecloaks? She exploded dirt in front of them. WOW. Totally would have been a useful skill in the battle for the White Tower, now that you mention it!:rolleyes:

GonzoTheGreat
03-24-2010, 08:56 AM
She could have stilled some sul'dam. That might have been effective, and it would be interesting to see what it did to the damane as well.

Enigma
03-24-2010, 10:17 AM
I suspect that some people were expecting Egwene to pull some super weave a bit like Rand did in TGS when he killed all the Shadowspawn in the Stone of Tear.

That would have been cool to see but very unrealistic. Firstly Egwene does not have the menories of one of the most skilled channelers in the Aol seeping in the back of her head. Secondly I would imagine its a lot easier to target Shadowspawn through the DO's taint than ordinary humans.

I'm not saying its impossible but I can't see how any weave Egwene did come up with to deal with the Seanchan all at once would be able to pick out the Seanchan from the rest of the people in the White Tower. The Seanchan are all human after all. I suppose she could have targetet the raken/to'raken but I don't think she has the time to start experementing on what would target them.

If she can't just wipe them out with the OP version of smart missiles then what's left is the OP version of a dumb bomb or destroy them unit by unit.

The OP version of a dumb bomb would take out the tower or if they were far enough away from the tower the city could be damaged. This is assuming she is going to kill them all not target individual flying units.

The last option Egwene has if she does not want to destroy a large part of the city and kill a lot of innocent people is to go after them one at a time.

The trouble with this is that Egwene does not have the Tower warded. She could not have warded it before the attack because ... well she was a prisoner, confined drugged etc. No wars = she can only target what she can see or knows where it is.

The OP is really cool in open battle. Witness what Rand did at the end of TEotW or the Seanchan did to the Whitecloaks at the end of TGH. We also have what Rand did to the Trollocks in the manor house in Tear and who can forget what the Asha'man did to the Shaido Aiel.

The trouble is that they had nice clear vantages with the enemy comming from one direction and the defender had a clear line of sight on the attacker. When the trollocks attacked Rand & Logain in Tear Rand notes that he cannot see all over the manor house so there are places he can't attack and has to leave it up to the Asha'man/Aes Sedai near the blind spots.

Egwene is not on the top of the roof. That means she can only see out the window or through holes in the wall and has a restricted field of fire. I am assumng that the Seanchan did not all line up in a single columen to fly in and out but were in fact circling the tower.

Once any Seanchan forces got into the Tower her field of fire is further reduced by walls, halls rooms etc. Added to that she has to protect the novices who are not battle hardened warriors. That means she can't just put herself on the top of the roof as Sa'angreal or no Sa'angreal I doubt if she could fend off all the attacks that would come to such an obvious spot.

Just in case anyone asks why defend the novices when she is willing to kill captive AS? Well Egwene was drugged. No novices = no channeling.

I say it suggested that Egwene should have stilled the sul'dam. I would suggest that its not about what looks cool but what is quicker and a lightning bolt will probably take out the damane & sul'dam a lot faster that severing someone. Maybe they are both as fast but what is the difference? As long as the damane are neutralised who cares what weave is used.

It may not have been pretty but unless the city/Tower was warded in advance by Egwene I can't see what she could have done differently.

On a slight aside and I am not looking to critise Brandon but I would love to know if the Tower battle scenes were written by him or RJ as I found some of the battles in the earlier books a lot easier to follow even Dumai Wells which was pretty chaoitic but thats just a personal observation.

Ishara
03-24-2010, 11:16 AM
Enigma and nameless are all over it. Good job men. ;)

Daekyras
03-24-2010, 11:31 AM
Egwene could have made extremely bright flashes of light, destroying the night vision of the Seanchan and their semi-birds. That would have made landing rather dangerous.

Egwene could have created huge updrafts and whirlwinds, thus making the air space very dangerous. Trying to counter that while flying would have messed things up even more, so this would be quite effective too.


All of these would have been cool. However, you have had several months to think of them since you read those passages. Egwene was there at the time. It's a totally different ball game. I think she did very well.

Yes, she could have done better but what she did was good enough.


Egwene could even, in theory, have started thinking about how to counter a possible Seanchan attack before it happened. She did try to warn the AS it was coming, so that they would prepare. But as far as I know, she didn't have any plans of her own ready, even though she actually believed her story.

In short, this was the Egwene we've come to know in the previous books.

Agreed. She knew it was coming, do something!

Heinz
03-24-2010, 11:58 AM
IIRC, during one of Siuan's POV's, she was thinking that even Egwene assumed a land battle/invasion would accompany said attack, and the SC were nowhere near TV so it was still months off at least.

Though I never figured out how that reconciled with the potential factor of Traveling. It was a matter of time before the SC got it, by observation of a Gateway or capture of an AS who knew it.

Even so, Egwene has been otherwise occupied in recent times, so dreaming up ways to stop the SC weren't on the top of the priority list. And even if she had, coming up with a theoretical concept of a new weapon or way to set traps is one thing, enacting said plan takes time and effort. Egwene did not have chances for any of these prior to the attack. She was struggling to be accepted as full Aes Sedai and the true Amyerlin with 'loyalist' Aes Sedai/Sitters, and then was put into a jail cell in which she could not fully stand and stretch for some length of time or rest easily, though 'rest' time was taken up by Dreamwalking anyway. She was released from said cell, brought to her rooms, dosed with extra forkroot so the Reds could go off and tend their Ajah, engaged in conversation with Verin and then with the Black book of revelations (also a higher priority item at that exact moment), and finally exhausted herself took a little nap. The attack interrupted said nap, so she's not even operating on a good night's rest after exhaustive activities the day(s) prior.

Damn her for not being more creative and inventive, or better prepared with traps and wards.

I understand that she's supposed to be a new and dynamic force, on the cutting edge and pushing the edge further. But the arguments that balls of fire and bolts of lightning... (Braveheart?) are mere 'simple' and she'll never stand up to a Forsaken that way are also proven false. How did Rand lose his hand? Semirhage, supposedly one of the most cruel and imaginative of the Forsaken when it came to inflicting pain, flicked a fireball at him. When Rand was attacking the Shaido surrounding Cairhein (sp?) and his attention was focused on the battle, what struck at the the wooden tower? A lightning bolt. So the Forsaken can be just as 'unimaginative' at times too.

GonzoTheGreat
03-24-2010, 11:58 AM
All of these would have been cool. However, you have had several months to think of them since you read those passages. Egwene was there at the time. It's a totally different ball game. I think she did very well.

Yes, she could have done better but what she did was good enough.

Agreed. She knew it was coming, do something!I've had a while to think about it, she had had a similar time span to think about it in advance. Plus, she had the added incentive of not wanting to be leashed again. So I would say that she could, in theory at least, have made some sort of an effort.

On a slight aside and I am not looking to critise Brandon but I would love to know if the Tower battle scenes were written by him or RJ as I found some of the battles in the earlier books a lot easier to follow even Dumai Wells which was pretty chaoitic but thats just a personal observation.Dumai's Wells was a two dimensional battle, the Tower mess was a three dimensional fight. A better comparison would probably be the attack on Rand by the renegade Asha'man, where everyone was stalking through the palace and no one knew who was where, and usually no one had any idea what was going on.
I say it suggested that Egwene should have stilled the sul'dam. I would suggest that its not about what looks cool but what is quicker and a lightning bolt will probably take out the damane & sul'dam a lot faster that severing someone. Maybe they are both as fast but what is the difference? As long as the damane are neutralised who cares what weave is used.But another important issue in such a fight is creating panic in the enemy ranks. And having lots of sul'dam who inexplicably start screaming and become totally ineffective at what they are supposed to do would be more terrifying to the Seanchan than the known and expected risks of fireballs and thunderbolts.

greatwolf
03-24-2010, 12:59 PM
A circle of 7 or 8 Aes Sedai would definitely protect her from shielding by even the strongest damane even with the forkroot, but except for Nicola most of the novices were still very weak and their Power alone might not have been sufficient. Remember that Egwene's own strength is not a factor because by her estimate the forkroot left her too weak to blow out a candle, let alone hold off a shield.


Why not go for something simpler? Command the AS that handed her the fluted rod to embrace the rod while she links with her. She'll have more than enough power, excellent mobility with the novices free to protect themselves if need be. And no need to worry about exposing novices to any weaves or sights they needn't see.


The trouble is that they had nice clear vantages with the enemy comming from one direction and the defender had a clear line of sight on the attacker.


Some of the most vulnerable people are fliers. IIRC, RJ made a note of this in tPoD. And Egwene's line of sight was no problem in using lightning and fireballs. BTW, the seafolk do the lightning ting better.

Le sigh. What did she do to the Whitecloaks? She exploded dirt in front of them. WOW. Totally would have been a useful skill in the battle for the White Tower, now that you mention it!


Someone was arguing that Egwene never learnt any SC weaves because she had just started trianing with them and I only gave those examples to show that she had. I wasn't totally certain if the post was part tease and I don't have the books to offer a direct rebuttal. An unfortunate weakness of mine nowadays.


I think we can make a good arguement for Egwene. Her time back in the WT has made her just as dumb as any other AS.


How did Rand lose his hand? Semirhage, supposedly one of the most cruel and imaginative of the Forsaken when it came to inflicting pain, flicked a fireball at him. When Rand was attacking the Shaido surrounding Cairhein (sp?) and his attention was focused on the battle, what struck at the the wooden tower? A lightning bolt. So the Forsaken can be just as 'unimaginative' at times too


True enough. Anyone can be unimaginative. But how would you feel if you were a Grandmaster and got beaten by a rookie? As I said before, it would be better if the forsaken are taken out by someone who deserved to beat or at least was a little closer to their skill/strength levels than merely relying on dumb luck. That kind of thing makes you feel like "Thank God its only two books to go"

In comparism to Rand, look closely at his fights with the forsaken. He needed the EotW to take them in book one. The horn (supposedly) in TGH. Callandor in TDR. An angreal and TAR in FoH. But by aCoS, he essentially went one on one with sammael. It at least reflects a pattern of growth. and development. I beleive the only reason he really stood upto them earlier is that LTT can deal with issues directly in TAR without having to go through Rand. But don't let Terez hear that or she'll hijack this thread.

I'd begun to think Egwene was growing too and after the accolades by the AS in KoD and even in tGS, I expected more in that battle. That apparently, is my fault though, Gonzo's always had it right.

Enigma
03-24-2010, 06:35 PM
On the idea that Egwene would plan how to counter the attack as Heinz pointed out she was a bit busy before hand but even if she wasn't did Egwene's dream tell her how the tower would be attacked? My memory was of a long line of AS leashed and calling lightning tipped with raken flashing by and nearly knocking over a lamp stand.
May be I'm dense but thats hardly a clear picture of what will happen.

I'm sure that someone will point out that Egwene spent time serving with the Seanchan war machine and should be familiar with all their tactics etc. Firstly I don't think sul'dam sit down with new damane and go through the Seanchan order of battle I think its more along the line of "I point you kill or else".

Secondly I was under the impression that the plan was radical not something that would be standard practice.

I know a lot of people don't like Egwene, I certainly would not want her for a friend but in this case given the handicaps she was working with she got the job done. Looking back at it were there things she might have done better? Probably but that can be said of any battle.

Personally I think she did a very good job. Up till that point her training had been in political leadership not acting as a captain in a battle. Yes she fought with the OP before but it was one on one or raining fire down at the Shaido. In the Tower she had to direct operations as best she could with limited resources that she had to husband very carefully. I am sure she would have picked up some lessons from Byrne when he was planning the siege of Tar Valon but for a novice battlefield commander she did ok.

Ishara
03-25-2010, 08:34 AM
No AS handed her the fluted rod. Where on earth are you GETTING that from?

She Traveled to the store room with novices, found the rod and left. End of story.

Davian93
03-25-2010, 10:18 AM
No AS handed her the fluted rod. Where on earth are you GETTING that from?

She Traveled to the store room with novices, found the rod and left. End of story.

Exactly...the only thing she did was ask the Green Sitter if she could recognize angrael in the storeroom.

halo6819
03-25-2010, 03:55 PM
couple quick quotes to clear some stuff up.

engwene NEEDED to link:
"Let them come!" Egwene roared, opening herself to the Source. Blessedly, enough time had passed to dull the forkroot slightly, and she was able to grab a faint trickle of the Power. It was tiny, perhaps the least amount of the Power she'd ever channeled. She wouldn't be able to weave a tongue of Air to shift a piece of paper. But it would be enough. It had to be. "We will fight!"

Nicola just sniffed, looking up at her. "You can barely channel, Mother!" she wailed. "I can see it. We can't fight them!"


even with the circle, she NEEDED the sa'angreal:
What mattered was that Egwene now had the Power. A fair measure of it, almost as much as she was accustomed to without forkroot. She smiled in anticipation, then began a weave, the complexity of it awing several of the novices.

and that is with nicola, one of the strongest novices around (excepting maybe sharina)

and there was no one guarding the sa'angreal:
Those shelves, along with two short rows of shelves out on the floor, were filled with items of curious design. Crystal globes, small exotic statues, here a glass pendant which reflected blue in the light, there a large set of metal gauntlets lined at the cuffs with firedrops. Egwene strode into the room, leaving the three novices to stare in wonder. They could likely sense what Egwene knew—these were objects of the One Power. Ter'angreal, angreal, sa'angreal. Relics of the Age of Legends.

Egwene scanned the shelves. Items of the Power were infamously dangerous to use if you didn't know exactly what they did. Any one of these items could kill her. If only. ...

She smiled broadly, stepping up to a shelf and sliding a fluted white wand as long as her forearm off the top shelf. She'd found it! She held it reverently for a moment, then reached and pulled the One Power through it. An awesome, almost overpowering, torrent of power flooded through her.

Yeteri gasped audibly at sensing it. Few women had ever held such power. It surged into Egwene, like a deep breath drawn in. It made her long to roar. She looked at the three novices, smiling broadly. "Now we're ready," she announced.

Let the sul'dam try and shield her while she was wielding one of the most powerful sa'angreal that the Aes Sedai possessed. The White Tower would not fall while she was Amyrlin! Not without a fight to rival the Last Battle itself.

so given her limitations, egwene rocked it pretty hard.

greatwolf
03-25-2010, 06:02 PM
Good job, I'd actually forgotten a couple of things there.

We're agreed she needed to link, although putting the wand in Nicola's hands would have made more power available. The problem is the way she used the power. Nothing new, just the usual lightning and fire.


I really didn't see anything to prove Egwene is ready to face the forsaken. Maybe I missed something.


Some beasts had flown away into the night, bearing captives. Egwene had felled the ones she could, but there had been so many to'raken in this raid. Some would escape. Sisters would be captured.
She formed a ball of fire in each hand, blasting another beast from the sky as it swooped too close.


And she didn't prevent the SC from gaining their objectives. Perhaps if she'd tried harder she could have found something to the down the fliers. Or at least a lot more of them.

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2010, 06:06 PM
I really didn't see anything to prove Egwene is ready to face the forsaken. Maybe I missed something.You may have missed the fact that the average Forsaken isn't really any brighter than Egwene is.
Of course, the average Forsaken is rather dead by now, so this is possibly not as important as it might have been earlier in the series.

greatwolf
03-25-2010, 06:18 PM
Captives, Bryne realized with a chill. They're taking captive Aes Sedai to the roof, tying ropes to them, then the raken are snatching those ropes and towing the women into the air. Light! He caught a glimpse of one of the captives being pulled away. It looked as if she had a sack tied over her head.
"We have to get into the Tower," Gawyn said. "This fight is just a distraction."


The SC used the fight against Egwene to cover their escape with captured AS. The only good thing about that was that it drew some of the SC into a position to get killed.

nameless
03-25-2010, 06:36 PM
When Bryne says "this fight" he is referring to the fight on the ground that he has just taken part in, not the fight with Egwene, which is far away from him and would have been referred to as "that fight."

Davian93
03-25-2010, 06:37 PM
Egwene is the most annoying character in the books...more so than Elayne because Egwene thinks she knows better than everyone. She's basically Elaida when it comes to dealing with Rand...which is far more annoying because at least Elaida had the excuses of being a Red Ajah AND having Fain's taint.

Come to think of it...Egwene hung out with Fain ALL the time in TGH...maybe she was tainted too. That would explain the brutal continuing stupidity she displays.

greatwolf
03-25-2010, 06:39 PM
I wasn't talking about Bryne's fight.

nameless
03-25-2010, 07:50 PM
The quote you posted was.

halo6819
03-25-2010, 08:51 PM
although putting the wand in Nicola's hands would have made more power available.

good point, i think this is an error with the transition from rj to bs...

during the bowl of the winds, nyneave and taalan got the angreal because they were the most powerful, they used the angreal, and then that strength got added to the link, so if egwene used the wand, it actually would not have done very much. easy mistake to be made, but a mistake none the less..

Kimon
03-25-2010, 09:41 PM
good point, i think this is an error with the transition from rj to bs...

during the bowl of the winds, nyneave and taalan got the angreal because they were the most powerful, they used the angreal, and then that strength got added to the link, so if egwene used the wand, it actually would not have done very much. easy mistake to be made, but a mistake none the less..

I don't think it would matter. Take note of what Nynaeve says to Talaan:

When it's time to bring you into the circle, just put yourself on the brink. That way, when I embrace through you, I'll embrace through the angreal as well.

So in a way, it doesn't really matter that Talaan has the angreal, as Nynaeve is directing the flows, and, even though Talaan has it, it is really Nynaeve that is using it. Nynaeve passed control of the circle to Elayne, and Elayne passed it to Caire. So in a way, Caire, not Talaan is using the angreal.

The same is true in the scene of the Choedan Kal, and here RJ seems to make the same point during Elza's POV:

Dashiva raised his hand toward the hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on Callandor in Jahar's hands.

Callandor is attuned to men, but here RJ implies that how strong the flow through Callandor would be was dependent not on Jahar, but on Elza. The same presumably should be true of the fluted wand. Unless you think that Egwene should have given both the wand and control of the circle to Nicola, the fact that Nicola was, at the time, stronger than Egwene shouldn't have mattered. Certainly Egwene was better suited to leading the circle, so everything else was mute. Plus, would you have trusted Nicola enough to hand over such a strong sa'angreal to her of all people?

The reason as to why the angreal were distributed the way they were during the using of the bowl of the winds doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the strength of the users per say. Nynaeve got one because she was claiming it permanently. Likewise for Aviendha. Talaan was making one time use of the one that would be Elayne's for a specific reason- the Sea Folk demanded it as a matter of protocol.

nameless
03-25-2010, 11:27 PM
When Elza's in charge of the link she can control how much saidin Narishma draws as if she were the one drawing it.

The question at stake is one that, to the best of my knowledge, has never been answered: do angreal and sa'angreal add a fixed amount to someone's strength or add an amount based on a factor of their original strength? Take Moiraine's angreal, for example. It made her strong enough to fight with Aginor but not strong enough to win, so let's say it raised her from a 12 to an 18 or so. What we don't know is if the angreal grants +6 strength or x150% strength.

Toss the dice
03-26-2010, 01:46 AM
Egwene is the most annoying character in the books...more so than Elayne because Egwene thinks she knows better than everyone. She's basically Elaida when it comes to dealing with Rand...which is far more annoying because at least Elaida had the excuses of being a Red Ajah AND having Fain's taint.

Come to think of it...Egwene hung out with Fain ALL the time in TGH...maybe she was tainted too. That would explain the brutal continuing stupidity she displays.

One of the most annoying things about Egwene to me is pretty much the same attitude that makes her perfect for the leader of Aes Sedai (the Amyrlin). Throughout much of the series, you hear her go on about the White Tower. How the WT is her family, over and over. How the WT is home, and she would be devastated if anything happened to it. How the WT HAS to be whole, at any cost. Here's a question. How long exactly did Egwene stay in the WT anyway? Under 6 months would be a good guess. Her character is overly possessive of the WT, Aes Sedai-ness, and anything to do with either of the two. And as far as I'm concerned, she really has no right to think any of the stuff she does. At least some of the other sisters that rant about the Tower being whole have actually been there over a year, for most of them decades.

Oops I ranted a little, back to my original point. I think Egwene is the perfect Amyrlin because she embodies all of the crappy qualities of Aes Sedai to a tee. First, all of her caring about the WT over anything else, including the world. Second, she thinks she knows everything, where in reality she knows very little. The one area where she HAS had access to the loop itself (Rand and company, saving the world), IMO either she is horrible at actually doing what she can to help that cause, constantly makes things more difficult than they have to be for our heroes, or completely disregards things she knows or doesn't say anything about them.

Lastly, she is a stupid bitch that apparently thinks cooperating with Rand is the devil. Heaven forbid you actually try to negotiate with the man. But no, he's too dangerous, too unstable. Can't be telling him anything that might help him or might have the slightest chance of leading Aes Sedai to lose even a miniscule shred of their dignity. Because that's way more important than saving the world right? Not like the Dark One breaking free and Trollocs marching all across the face of the earth is a big deal.

On a semi-related note, while Aes Sedai are clearly the cream of the crop for pompous stupidity, one of the minor themes of WoT seems to be nearly every group sharing this attitude. Nearly every group, from the Sea Folk to Seanchan, from Aes Sedai to any random noble anywhere...everyone seems to go in a fury if someone doesn't give them respect, as if they are the absolute ruler of the world. The 3 people in the entire world that actually MATTER, ironically happen to NOT want to be where they are status-wise. Perrin would much rather be a commoner blacksmith or farmer, Mat hates being called a Lord as much as Perrin does, and he would rather be in a tavern somewhere dicing as well. Rand seems to tolerate the whole Lord Dragon stuff and his position, but at the same time it is complicated with him and I think most of it stems from him doing what he has to do.

greatwolf
03-26-2010, 05:35 PM
. Talaan was making one time use of the one that would be Elayne's for a specific reason- the Sea Folk demanded it as a matter of protocol.


I don't recall the SF demanding for an angreal. Could you back that with evidence?


So in a way, it doesn't really matter that Talaan has the angreal, as Nynaeve is directing the flows, and, even though Talaan has it, it is really Nynaeve that is using it


Nynaeve isn't embracing the angreal directly, but embraces through Talaan and then draws on the angreal.


Dashiva raised his hand toward the hill where she stood, and she drew as hard as she could on Callandor in Jahar's hands


Note that Callandor had to be in Jahar's hands.


The question at stake is one that, to the best of my knowledge, has never been answered: do angreal and sa'angreal add a fixed amount to someone's strength or add an amount based on a factor of their original strength? Take Moiraine's angreal, for example. It made her strong enough to fight with Aginor but not strong enough to win, so let's say it raised her from a 12 to an 18 or so. What we don't know is if the angreal grants +6 strength or x150% strength.


Callandor is said to be flawed specifically in that it doesn't have the protection that limits how much you can draw but allows you to draw whatever you want - no buffer. That strongly implies that angreal and saangreal multiply rather than adding a fixed quantity else they'd be more like reusable wells. However using Callandor in a link puts in a natural limit since a link buffers against overdraw.

Sodas
03-27-2010, 01:52 PM
I know this thread has gone another route, but I wanted to just mention since this thread is about the military in TGS, the Seachan.

I think we will start seeing a change, finally, because of Tylee. I found her character very interesting in KOD. I'm not sure if it's been discussed, but back in KOD Ch.4, she recognizes Berelain as being of the blood of Arthur Hawkwing, so long as she doesn't attempt any imperial claims. Now, in TGS, she encounters Shadowspawn and seemingly is the first one to report them to Tuon in Ch.35. So she seems legit.

I feel if Rand re approaches Tuon, there can be peace before the Last Battle. But I feel it hinges on Mat and Tylee's influences on Tuon, as well as Rand's new attitude.

greatwolf
03-27-2010, 02:55 PM
I think we will start seeing a change, finally, because of Tylee. I found her character very interesting in KOD.


I think Rand's attitude is far more important. Tuon might be willing to work side by side with Rand. It isn't necesary for you to absorb the other guy into your command structure if you're under a truce.

Yet Tuon might not want to ally herself with someone as dark as Rand. Yes, dark! Despite the way tGS ended, I doubt we've seen the last of Rand's journey to the Dark side. I think the DO actually may have a hold on his soul.

greatwolf
03-27-2010, 05:47 PM
How much changed in tGS? Rand has new forces in the BLs. And a lot of mental problems. At least he'll now have another great captain for TLB. But what good are the G.C.s if they don't know warfare that involves channeling?


There are so many ways that channeling can affect the outcome of battles. Rand could send troops via gateways to a location and then find out he can't resupply those troops because the forsaken know how to block gates.

Then there are weaves like blossoms of fire. How many more weaves like that will we see? I wouldn't be surprised if the forsaken have weaves that would enable them to clear the air of raken and toraken in one move.


There are others. webs to communicate, wards that protect better than armour and the ability to manipulate TAR.

The shadows channelers and armies are likely to be better led, trained and coordinated than Rand's. Only the SC coordinate their armies with channelers and I think the shadow already has plans to deal with SC damane and armies.

The only person who knows of fighting with the OP is LTT. And he remains a disembodied voice in Rand's head. Even Mat's memories do not cover battles with armies channeling, at least not that we have seen.

So Rand will need LTT very badly. And maybe the SC commanders too. But he has put himself in very bad odour with the SC.

The DO has Demandred who is distinguished in leading forces in the field. He might also have Sammael and Moridin and maybe Taim. They've been planning, probably training and preparing while Rand flounders around blindly not knowing what he needs to do at TLB or how to do it.

His plans sound very much like he thinks he'll just go to SG with ashaman and soldiers and take the place, then reseal the DO and its over. A very good recipe for disaster.

greatwolf
03-27-2010, 06:11 PM
Egwene (the AS) are probably in a better position than pre tGS, with the tower reunited and the BA eliminated. I'm still trying to sort through the math, but Egwene probably lost more sisters to the BA than to the SC. And she got a few damane.


Yet she has to deal with the SC. A battle against Tuon could eliminate the WT completely. I estimate Tuon has thousands of damane in RL and may now have access to more if she has gained Travelling. And Elaida's foretelling probably indicates that Egwene will attack the BT at some point in future (though it could easily be the sisters with Rand, with help of loyal ashaman against Taim's croonies) OTOH, the foretelling may very well mean something else.


In any attack on the BT, the bonded ashaman will invariably be a factor. To what extent remains to be seen. They were left out of the battle for the WT appropriately. Though they should have been a factor in the negotiations, the SC attack made those pretty moot.


They may agree to take part in a battle against fellow ashaman. Or not. More likely the best Egwene can hope for is that they provide enough information that will make a raid successful. Maybe Bryne will give her some good ideas.


The WT can't afford to lose that many more, either in conflict with the BT or the EVA. So Egwene will have to weigh options carefully or the WT won't be a force at TLB.

Kimon
03-27-2010, 06:13 PM
I don't recall the SF demanding for an angreal. Could you back that with evidence?


These are Nynaeve's exacts words on the matter:

"You gave one to Aviendha, did you?" she said briskly. "Well, I suppose she's all right. A pity we have to let the Sea Folk use one. I'll wager they try to hang on to it!"

Concerning your other points, why you're even bothering to draw attention to the fact that Jahar is holding Callandor seems pointless, since that is both obvious, and unimportant. What is important is that RJ seems to be indicating that the strength of the flow through Callandor is controlled by Elza, who is leading the circle. Vis-à-vis Nynaeve and Talaan, think of it this way, which is how Nynaeve describes the process to Caire and Talaan:

"Now I will reach out to her..." Nynaeve paused, looking at Talaan. Elayne had not had a chance to tell her anything, really. "It's much the same as with an angreal," Nynaeve said, addressing the slender apprentice. Caire growled, and Talaan tried to watch Nynaeve with her head down. "You open yourself to the source through an angreal, just as I will through Elayne. As though you mean to embrace the angreal and the Source at the same time. It isn't very difficult, really. Watch, and you'll see. When it's time to bring you into the circle, just put yourself on the brink. That way, when I embrace through you, I'll embrace through the angreal as well."

Talaan and "her" angreal are thus both like angreal (angreals?) for Nynaeve, as she is the one controlling the flow through each, including how strong that flow will be. The same logic would hold for Nicola, Egwene, and the fluted rod sa'angreal.

GonzoTheGreat
03-28-2010, 04:04 AM
I think Rand's attitude is far more important. Tuon might be willing to work side by side with Rand. It isn't necesary for you to absorb the other guy into your command structure if you're under a truce.But Tuon sincerely believes that in order for the forces of Light to have even a chance of victory, Rand has to submit to her.
And Rand sincerely believes that in order for the forces of Light to have even a chance of victory, Tuon has to submit to him.

So while in general you may be correct, in this specific case that is totally irrelevant. One or the other has to give in, and until that happens there is no chance.

Spasmodean
03-28-2010, 08:43 AM
I think in ToM once Mat reaches Caemlyn we will get a bit more info on Aludra's dragons.

Now while he may not have direct knowledge of channeling in warfare (though Rodel seemed to get a few ideas right off the bat), the Shadow will be forced to adapt to his using cannons.

Davian93
03-28-2010, 09:10 AM
I think in ToM once Mat reaches Caemlyn we will get a bit more info on Aludra's dragons.

Now while he may not have direct knowledge of channeling in warfare (though Rodel seemed to get a few ideas right off the bat), the Shadow will be forced to adapt to his using cannons.

Cannon warfare not much different than shocklances, etc. Remember, the Shadow's top leaders are likely far more familiar with advanced weaponry than the Light.

Enigma
03-28-2010, 10:18 AM
Cannon warfare not much different than shocklances, etc. Remember, the Shadow's top leaders are likely far more familiar with advanced weaponry than the Light.

They may be familiary with the idea but their problem is that they don't have any of their own. In the AoL during the war both sides lost their tech base so advance weapons becare more and more rare. As far as weapons available to each side the weapons available were roughly equal.

Going back to the fact that the Seanchan might attack the Tower again and Egwene can't lose any more AS if she knows that the Seanchan have traveling AS as damane she knows it will take the Seanchan a few days at least to start to break the AS. That should be more than enough time for her to arrange to have the whole of the island warded to reach violently to any gateway opening outside of permitted areas that can be heavily guarded.

greatwolf
03-28-2010, 03:34 PM
But Tuon sincerely believes that in order for the forces of Light to have even a chance of victory, Rand has to submit to her.
And Rand sincerely believes that in order for the forces of Light to have even a chance of victory, Tuon has to submit to him.


It isn't necesary for you to absorb the other guy into your command structure if you're under a truce.

What I meant. They both want to be in charge. Sometimes you can do it like the UN. But most times in WWII, British, American and Russian troops were working indepently to defeat the same enemy. But it might not work if they do it like the UN - plenty of confusion, no goals.


(though Rodel seemed to get a few ideas right off the bat), the Shadow will be forced to adapt to his using cannons.

I dont think Rand wants to end up hiding in a stedding. Having a few ideas is a lot different from being an experienced tactician.



she knows it will take the Seanchan a few days at least to start to break the AS


???


her to arrange to have the whole of the island warded to reach violently to any gateway opening outside of permitted areas that can be heavily guarded


You're assuming Egwene isn't stupid. I've said in this thread I no longer support that view. Do you want me to start a faction for it?

Spasmodean
03-28-2010, 07:39 PM
I dont think Rand wants to end up hiding in a stedding. Having a few ideas is a lot different from being an experienced tactician.

That's not exactly what I was saying (though it's a good example of how one of the GC's dealt with channelers!)

Rand says something along the lines of: What can you do with 100 male channelers and Rodel after a bit of thought decides he could do some nice interesting things.

greatwolf
03-29-2010, 04:07 AM
That's not exactly what I was saying (though it's a good example of how one of the GC's dealt with channelers!)

Rand says something along the lines of: What can you do with 100 male channelers and Rodel after a bit of thought decides he could do some nice interesting things.


That exemplifies the problem. Its like asking a new recruit if he can use a sword and then sending him off to face a blademaster. Demandred or Sammael should make mincemeat of Rodel in any military duel involving channeling.


Whatever Rodel knows, he won't know enough. He isn't a channeler. Most of the SC commanders will have the same limitation except (the now dead) Tuon herself. How will he plan for wards? Or know how men channeling will react at their first taste of OP battle?

Yes, we know Rand is ready to send the mice after the cat. Even if he hopes the others remain dead, he has never thought of dealing with demandred that we know of. Yet he knows Demandred was an accomplished military leader. Can he leave the likes of Rodel and Bashere to deal with him? Or even Ishamael?

Ishara
03-29-2010, 09:09 AM
The only person who knows of fighting with the OP is LTT. And he remains a disembodied voice in Rand's head. Even Mat's memories do not cover battles with armies channeling, at least not that we have seen.

So Rand will need LTT very badly. And maybe the SC commanders too. But he has put himself in very bad odour with the SC.

Did you read Veins of Gold? LTT is GONE. No more voice. No more advice. Done.

greatwolf
03-29-2010, 11:38 AM
Did you read Veins of Gold? LTT is GONE. No more voice. No more advice. Done.

I guess you mean this :

And Rand opened his eyes for the first time in a very long while. He knew—somehow—that he would never again hear Lews Therin's voice in his head. For they were not two men, and never had been.

If so, have you thought that its merely Rand's opinion and that some people consider Rand to be "stupid". Myself, I'll wait for ToM before I assume that to be the case.

Toss the dice
03-30-2010, 04:56 AM
I guess you mean this :

If so, have you thought that its merely Rand's opinion and that some people consider Rand to be "stupid". Myself, I'll wait for ToM before I assume that to be the case.

Wow, I actually agree with something you said. Rather, for once you're not blatantly wrong.

Will be interesting to see what changes with Rand's POVs after this.

Ozymandias
03-30-2010, 10:35 AM
Yet Tuon might not want to ally herself with someone as dark as Rand. Yes, dark!

False. She almost did, and that was when Rand was just about at his darkest. Its got nothing to do with what she thinks Rand's mental attitude is. It has to do with her own ideas about ruling and the status of damane. The issue at the first meeting was not Rand's insanity, but the political issues of whether Rand needed to bow to Tuon, the leashing of Aes Sedai, and so on. Tuon doesn't want to be second fiddle to Rand in a land she regards as her birthright. Anything else is secondary.

I think Rand's attitude is far more important. Tuon might be willing to work side by side with Rand. It isn't necesary for you to absorb the other guy into your command structure if you're under a truce.

Yes, it is. No battle is won with two generals commanding at once. This is explicitly referenced in New Spring, where the generals rotate a command structure rather than have multiple contingents.

My guess is Mat is given overall command of both armies. He is the most capable general alive, which both Rand and the Seanchan are aware of. He is an acceptable commander for both; the Aiel respect him, the great generals will accept his talents, and the other nobles will bow to Rand's will, and the Seanchan will accept Tuon's decision.

greatwolf
03-30-2010, 02:31 PM
Yes, it is. No battle is won with two generals commanding at once. This is explicitly referenced in New Spring, where the generals rotate a command structure rather than have multiple contingents.


The allies did well in WWII having separate commands. As long as you know how to interact (communications, etc) , it works. As close as the US and British commands were, they still had very separate forces.

Rand has suceeded in bringing together forces of several nations but he himself seems to be a major obstacle in his blindness. The prophecy of the finns makes him beleive he has to subjugate everyone to win the last battle rather than uniting them.


Despite having aiel and wetlanders in his team, the walls between the aiel and the others are practically intact. Ditto all the others, especially the walls between male and female channelers.

IIRC, the KP prophecy only requires Rand to "bind" the DoNM to him. Not lord it over her. (incidentally Tuon is no longer DoNM so this may have already been fulfilled.) That means he only has to have a binding arangement with Tuon. Usually kingdoms were bound to each other in medevial times through blood linkage i.e marrying off sons and daughters.


The issue at the first meeting was not Rand's insanity, but the political issues of whether Rand needed to bow to Tuon, the leashing of Aes Sedai, and so on. Tuon doesn't want to be second fiddle to Rand in a land she regards as her birthright. Anything else is secondary.



As I said, Tuon and Rand can easily get around this particular problem by having separate lines of command thaty do not require Tuon to submit to Rand and vice versa. The fact that Tuon was willing to meet with a marath damane at all shows the degree of flexibility that she can exercise. And Rand knows how much he needs unity.


Getting the walls between different culture to come down is a much more ardous and important task for the DR. Even if he takes his forces to SG and miraculously wins, everything will fall apart once TLB is over and men will go back to fughting and bickering that will probably be far worse than the war of hundred years.


The chaos that will ensue will bring about the victory of the DO in the end as men turn to violence, strife and hatred. Especially if the bore remains as it is.



My guess is Mat is given overall command of both armies. He is the most capable general alive, which both Rand and the Seanchan are aware of. He is an acceptable commander for both; the Aiel respect him, the great generals will accept his talents, and the other nobles will bow to Rand's will, and the Seanchan will accept Tuon's decision.


We agree on this. Matt for one, has had much better integration of his forces than either Rand or Perrin. I think substituting the role of noble with that of ranks of general and such was the last bit of reorganization he needed to make the band a unit.

Ozymandias
03-30-2010, 04:20 PM
The allies did well in WWII having separate commands. As long as you know how to interact (communications, etc) , it works. As close as the US and British commands were, they still had very separate forces.

But they never fought the same battles. Except D-Day and those, which were under American control. Eisenhower was the CIC for the French invasion. Its similar to saying that Mat fighting in Altara is working alongside Ituralde fighting in Arad Doman. Its just not the same fight. In the Last Battle, its going to be all the forces of Light arrayed against all the forces of the Shadow (more or less). In a continent-wide war, you can have a bunch of independant forces with individual leaders operating under the same general strategy. In a localized, micro setting, you need one man with his hands on the reins, otherwise the uncoordinated forces will be exposed and blundering about the whole time.

Rand has suceeded in bringing together forces of several nations but he himself seems to be a major obstacle in his blindness. The prophecy of the finns makes him beleive he has to subjugate everyone to win the last battle rather than uniting them.

Not really. For example, he has given up the rule of Andor, Tear, and Cairhien. He's perfectly willing to allow his subordinates leeway, and indeed, perfect autonomy. I won't deny he's being a little pigheaded about it, but he's right in that every nation needs to submit to his nominal authority BEFORE TG or else its too late. They can't have a situation like in the Blood Snow; if the Trollocs make it far into Randland uncontested, it won't matter that everyone suddenly wakes up and helps.

His idiocy comes in assuming that he need give nothing. But his meeting with the Borderlanders, for instance; yeah, he may have demanded too much, but they can't assume that he's going to give up his greatest protection, his channeling, just to haggle with them.

Despite having aiel and wetlanders in his team, the walls between the aiel and the others are practically intact. Ditto all the others, especially the walls between male and female channelers.

Yes, but not in any important way. In the Roman Empire, you might have Numidian cavalry and Spanish archers and Roman legionnaires in the same force who couldn't speak the same language, or had different customs, and different fighting styles. But as long as the man in charge knew what he was doing, and as long as each disparate element obeyed, it didn't matter. Same thing here. As long as every force obeys Rand (or Mat), it won't matter that they might even despise each other.

As I said, Tuon and Rand can easily get around this particular problem by having separate lines of command thaty do not require Tuon to submit to Rand and vice versa. The fact that Tuon was willing to meet with a marath damane at all shows the degree of flexibility that she can exercise. And Rand knows how much he needs unity.

No, you cannot have separate lines of command. You need someone in charge. If Mat is in charge of both forces, thats one line of command. You can't have Galgan and Mat commanding different halves of the armies. What if they give conflicting orders? You can have your own command structure in place, if you want, but you cannot have two men with equal decision-making responsibility at the head of a force; one must subordinate to the other.

We agree on this. Matt for one, has had much better integration of his forces than either Rand or Perrin. I think substituting the role of noble with that of ranks of general and such was the last bit of reorganization he needed to make the band a unit


I don't see how this is revolutionary? Firstly, most of the generals and officers ARE nobles. Secondly, most professional military forces are based on merit. The problem with a feudal military system is that the vast majority of troops are noble levies. Which means, if you want the troops, you need the noble. Can't have one without the other. In most of the professional forces we see, the high ranking officers are talented commoners. I believe Tihera of the Defenders is a commoner (or was), as with whoever runs the Companions (I forgot his name).

And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the strong impression that Byrne was a commoner who was given noble status as a reward for his duties, or as a part of his post.

halo6819
03-30-2010, 07:56 PM
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the strong impression that Byrne was a commoner who was given noble status as a reward for his duties, or as a part of his post.

dont have the quote now, but byrne mentions in TSR that kore springs had been in his family for ages, and that the banner was ancient as well...

Davian93
03-30-2010, 08:17 PM
dont have the quote now, but byrne mentions in TSR that kore springs had been in his family for ages, and that the banner was ancient as well...

A minor house only famous because of him.



TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 1 - Fanning the Sparks
The manor house was really little more than a tremendously overgrown farmhouse, two rambling stories of brick and stone under a slate roof, added to again and again by generations of Brynes. House Bryne had owned this land-or it had owned them-since Andor was wrought from the wreckage of Artur Hawkwing's empire a thousand years before, and for all that time it had sent its sons off to fight Andor's wars. He would fight no more wars, but it was too late for House Bryne. There had been too many wars, too many battles. He was the last of the blood. No wife, no son, no daughter. The line ended with him. All things had to end; the Wheel of Time turned.

And



TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 12 - An Old Pipe
Hooking a knee around the high cantle of his saddle, he took out his pipe and pouch and filled his pipe with tabac. The bowl was carved with a wild bull collared with the Rose Crown of Andor. For a thousand years that had been the sign of House Bryne; strength and courage in service of the queen. He needed a new pipe; this one was old.

And

Seeing Barim give a start, he added, "Not you. Another old fool." None of this was his affair any longer. Except to decide which way House Bryne went, when the time came. Not that anyone would care, except to know whether or not to attack him. Bryne had never been a powerful House, or large.

greatwolf
03-31-2010, 06:39 AM
But they never fought the same battles. Except D-Day


There were others e.g. //en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Shingle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Shingle)


In a continent-wide war, you can have a bunch of independant forces with individual leaders operating under the same general strategy. In a localized, micro setting, you need one man with his hands on the reins, otherwise the uncoordinated forces will be exposed and blundering about the whole time.


Two things. First, TLB is a continent wide, in fact global conflict. Second, its not really a battle despite its name but a war and there will likely be several flash points and conflicts as part of it. In fact you could even consider the "purge" as a part of it. Or the various actions of the forsaken since their release.

Since it is wide in scope, you can have several fronts and multiple commanders handling things at various levels. All working towards the same overall objective: get to berlin first , sorry Shayol Ghul.


The EVA have many generals. So does Rand and his allies. No one is saying they should all try commanding the same unit, but there'll be enough for everyone to do without getting in each other's way.


Yes, but not in any important way. In the Roman Empire, you might have Numidian cavalry and Spanish archers and Roman legionnaires in the same force who couldn't speak the same language, or had different customs, and different fighting styles. But as long as the man in charge knew what he was doing, and as long as each disparate element obeyed, it didn't matter. Same thing here.

and

What if they give conflicting orders? You can have your own command structure in place, if you want, but you cannot have two men with equal decision-making responsibility at the head of a force; one must subordinate to the other.


Tuon and Rand are not squabbling about who leads the armies or its command structure, but rather over which of the two should bow first! Its like wondering if Churchill Or Roosevelt is in charge. I'm contending that neither is necessary.

What is needed is to have agreement to work together. And decide what needs be done. The final work of resealing the bore is more or less Rand's. But everyone has a role.


he's right in that every nation needs to submit to his nominal authority BEFORE TG or else its too late. They can't have a situation like in the Blood Snow;


Problem I see here is the word "submit". Uniting people is a lot different from conquering them. And Rand is seeing conquest and submission as practically the same. He's even bothered when the aiel do not treat him as a fuedal king!


If Rand becomes Supreme overlord or Emperor and then dies at the last battle, the victory could be as short lived as the initial sealing that was followed by the time of madness. Imagine what happens when everyone tries to take over : The seanchan, the aes sedai, the ashaman even the wise ones, renegade seanchan, etc.

There will be enough chaos and destruction to rival the breaking if not surpass it. The war of hundred years is a suitable template for this, with the difference that the armies have channelrs this time, with travelling, angreal, balefire and all what not.

That will probably destroy the land as badly as what the trollocs could and result in the DO's victory one way or another. In fact, in the midst of chaos and anarchy, with channeling in the mix, it would be easy to undo whatever Rand does to reseal the DO.


The DR has to win both the war and the peace. He needs to unify his forces before TLB or he still loses whatever the outcome at SG.


I don't see how this is revolutionary? Firstly, most of the generals and officers ARE nobles. Secondly, most professional military forces are based on merit. The problem with a feudal military system is that the vast majority of troops are noble levies.


Because those levies no longer belong to those nobles. Mat can remove them and the men would follow whoever he put in charge rather than their Lord. They are one unit, the band, notTairens, Murandians, Altarans, Cairheninin,...

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2010, 06:56 AM
Tuon and Rand are not squabbling about who leads the armies or its command structure, but rather over which of the two should bow first! Its like wondering if Churchill Or Roosevelt is in charge. I'm contending that neither is necessary.On what grounds do you make that claim?

Both Rand and Tuon have prophecy to support their belief that one of them has to be in charge. The only way in which you can defend your faith here is by dismissing both prophecies. But why should we believe you?

Ozymandias
03-31-2010, 10:32 AM
Two things. First, TLB is a continent wide, in fact global conflict. Second, its not really a battle despite its name but a war and there will likely be several flash points and conflicts as part of it. In fact you could even consider the "purge" as a part of it. Or the various actions of the forsaken since their release.

There has been a very strong implication that there will be one climactic battle on the slopes of Shayol Ghul. Yes, there will be fights everywhere else, but on the last day, everyone is gonna get together in the Blasted Lands and duke it out. Which means all those little generals doing their own thing all over Randland, need to submit to someone's overarching authority.

Since it is wide in scope, you can have several fronts and multiple commanders handling things at various levels. All working towards the same overall objective: get to berlin first , sorry Shayol Ghul.

And as I just said, once they get there, someone needs to lead the parade.

The EVA have many generals. So does Rand and his allies. No one is saying they should all try commanding the same unit, but there'll be enough for everyone to do without getting in each other's way.

EVA?

Tuon and Rand are not squabbling about who leads the armies or its command structure, but rather over which of the two should bow first! Its like wondering if Churchill Or Roosevelt is in charge. I'm contending that neither is necessary.

wolf, this is the same exact issue. Whoever bows gets to appoint a commander and tell the other what to do. Thats in the very nature of submission. Churchill and Roosevelt were bound by common cause, but the truth is, in the end, Churchill jumped when Roosevelt said frog, because he need American men, money, and materiel.

As Gonzo pointed out, there cannot be any kind of equal partnership for the Last Battle. Both Rand and Tuon believe fervently that the fate of the world depends on the other bowing to them. They think this with their entire heart and soul. They're not going to risk watching the world burn for the other's beliefs.

Problem I see here is the word "submit". Uniting people is a lot different from conquering them. And Rand is seeing conquest and submission as practically the same. He's even bothered when the aiel do not treat him as a fuedal king!

Your ignoring a ton of evidence to reject your theory. Case in point: Andor. Never conquered it, not really. Ousted Gabriel, then left. Real big conquest. And while it took some counsel, he also accepted the submission of the Tairen rebels without fighting them. Never conquered the Aiel, now did he? They submitted. And while yes, he wants a degree of submission they're unwilling to give, much of that stems from cultural differences in how rulers are perceived.

There will be enough chaos and destruction to rival the breaking if not surpass it. The war of hundred years is a suitable template for this, with the difference that the armies have channelrs this time, with travelling, angreal, balefire and all what not.

Once again, you forget your history. The strong implication of the BWB is that Ishamael pulled the strings that orchestrated the Hundred Years War by killing off Hawkwing's children, poisoning him against Aes Sedai, and killing off other likely successors to the throne.

Because those levies no longer belong to those nobles. Mat can remove them and the men would follow whoever he put in charge rather than their Lord. They are one unit, the band, notTairens, Murandians, Altarans, Cairheninin,...

But Mat can't do it immediately. He can't travel to every estate in every land; even with the Power it would takes years. The levies absolutely belong to the nobles, and your assumption that Mat can raise and outfit and million+ army on his own without help is ridiculous. No one wants to fight... levies fight because its part of their feudal duty. Mat can only get volunteers.

AND I'll point out the irony that not only is Mat a noble, the assumption among the Band was that Rand would grant him many estates, thus allowing Mat to support his troops... which in effect makes the noble levies; i.e. troops called up by a particular Lord.

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2010, 10:35 AM
EVA?East Vietnamese Armada. Alternatively: ever victorious army.

greatwolf
03-31-2010, 03:37 PM
On what grounds do you make that claim?

Both Rand and Tuon have prophecy to support their belief that one of them has to be in charge. The only way in which you can defend your faith here is by dismissing both prophecies. But why should we believe you?

Which prophecies? I think that's where you're seeing this wrong. Anyway I'll answer fully as soon as I finish nursing the baby. :)

GonzoTheGreat
03-31-2010, 04:01 PM
As for Rand, there's this:
"Neither the first nor the last," Moiraine said. "Callandor will be but one fulfillment of The Karaethon Cycle, as his birth on the slopes of Dragonmount was the first. He has yet to break the nations, or shatter the world. Even scholars who have studied the Prophecies for their entire lives do not know how to interpret them all. What does it mean that he 'shall slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf'? What does it meant that he 'shall bind the nine moons to serve him'? Yet these are given equal weight with Callandor in the Cycle. There are others. What 'wounds of madness and cutting of hope' has he healed? What chains has he broken, and who put into chains? And some are so obscure that he may already have fulfilled them, although I am not aware of it. But, no. Callandor is far from the end of it."As heir to the throne, Tuon was Daughter of the Nine Moons. So the Nine Moons themselves represent the Empress, who has to serve the DR.

As for Tuon, there's this:
Tuon nodded. She herself was not sure at all. That sort of sureness could lead to the Tower of the Ravens even for her. Perhaps especially for her. "I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost." The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly.The usual interpretation of this is that the Seanchan version has been corrupted by Ishamael. But until Tuon is convinced of that, it will be impossible to achieve a resolution of this conflict, and without that the Shadow wins.

greatwolf
03-31-2010, 05:27 PM
wolf, this is the same exact issue. Whoever bows gets to appoint a commander and tell the other what to do. Thats in the very nature of submission. Churchill and Roosevelt were bound by common cause, but the truth is, in the end, Churchill jumped when Roosevelt said frog, because he need American men, money, and materiel...

...As Gonzo pointed out, there cannot be any kind of equal partnership for the Last Battle.


Equal? When did I say that? I'm saying that the squabble between Rand and TUon is irrelevant from a military view because it need not affect command structure. To win at TLB, they need to appoint the best commanders for the best situations.


EVA generals have more experience fighting OP battles and they'll probably supply the most channelers. But resealing the bore and defeating the DO is Rand's job. With maybe AS help. The damane might not contribute more than "brute force".

Using clear and distinct goals allows the parties to keep the individual command structures and differences. Case in point is Perrin at Malden.

Perrin could have argued himself hoarse on why he needs to be in charge and Tylee would never have budged. Because doing so implies that the EVA is inferior to Perrin!


But faced with a well thought out plan, she fell in and filled her place without qualm even though it'd been written out for her. She saw the merit of his plan.


Merit is what should determine precedence in a democratic setting and that's where equality comes in. You choose the most skilled person for the job. Not whims. Rand came with a demand for Tuon to follow him to TLB. She refused.


She expects him to bow to her despite the fact that she doesn't have a crystal throne to sit on!
And SC culture demands property to prostrate before the crystal throne not bow!


My proposal, for avoidance of doubt, is not based on what Rand and Tuon are doing but what they ought to be doing.


Your ignoring a ton of evidence to reject your theory. Case in point: Andor. Never conquered it, not really. Ousted Gabriel, then left.


Left? Elayne tossed him out! First thing. You trying to put a good face on it?


Once again, you forget your history. The strong implication of the BWB is that Ishamael pulled the strings that orchestrated the Hundred Years War by killing off Hawkwing's children, poisoning him against Aes Sedai, and killing off other likely successors to the throne.


Exactly. He made sure that devastation would come out of Hawkwing's reign. Now the shadow has been sowing division all over in an effort to ensure that the DR cannot win no matter what he does. The moment he dies, the coalition he put together will fall apart and probably tear the world (or whatever remains of it) apart.

greatwolf
04-01-2010, 12:01 PM
Egwene's handling of the BA purge may have been just another example of how unimaginative she gets. First look at what Egwene had:

1) Verin had just handed her a list of 200 BA members. No need to sweat, just tuck in and the meal's yours.

2) Egwene holds the position of amyrlin among the rebels with her war powers still in place.

3) She has just met with the BA hunters and knows there are at least fifteen women within the tower who are not BA. Five of them sitters! Plus ten rebels that she could have commanded. And they even had a few BA already though I don't recall if Egwene knew of these.

4) She knows at least one of the leaders of the BA - Sheriam. I don't know what Verin said of Alviarhin's status, but she herself had already said that the BA may have had a hand in getting Elaida to power.

5) Plus she also knew of Alvirhin's letter to Rand, and she was very suspicious of it. Finding she's BA now (no matter how high) should have had her asking questions.

6) She also knew of the original 13 BA that left the WT with Liandrian and the two plots they hatched including the one to free Taim. I am very surprised none of the three supergirls have said anything about Taim considering what they know. Not even in their POVs and we know Elayne at least has wondered about Taim often.

7)Since sheriam was BA, what of her council?

8) Was Elaida's name among the black? Or nothing said about her? That could have helped formulate a plan of action.

9) Nynaeve and Elayne were also definitely not BA and could have helped.

10) And she had Travelling, mirror of mists, masking and more to help her.


And I ask could she have done better by any reasonable means?

She got 50 out of 200 eventually. A success rate of 25% despite the fact that she choose when, where and how. 75% suceesfully escaped. And no knew prisoners! Not even one warded so she can be found later ore traced.

Pathetic.

Typical of the "all brawn, no brain" approach

Ozymandias
04-01-2010, 01:50 PM
Equal? When did I say that? I'm saying that the squabble between Rand and TUon is irrelevant from a military view because it need not affect command structure. To win at TLB, they need to appoint the best commanders for the best situations.[QUOTE]

But who gets to appoint the overall commander in chief? You and I assume it will be Mat, and I think this is a safe justification. Neither Fortuona (to be formal) nor Rand are aware the other knows of Mat's prodigious tactical abilities. They'll fight over the prerogative of who gets to appoint the general in charge, because its important both from a strategic position, and from a position of who is ultimately holding the hair more advantage in the struggle for dominance. Appointments like that are the counters in soft diplomacy.


[QUOTE]EVA generals have more experience fighting OP battles and they'll probably supply the most channelers. But resealing the bore and defeating the DO is Rand's job. With maybe AS help. The damane might not contribute more than "brute force".

They're also completely unskilled in fighting Shadowspawn. Which, when it comes down to it, might be the more important factor. And they most certainly will not supply the most channelers. There is no evidence showing that the Seanchan have 2000+ channelers, which is what Rand, or the non-Seanchan force, would ostensibly supply (based off the rough numbers we have of Black/White Tower occupancy rates).

Using clear and distinct goals allows the parties to keep the individual command structures and differences. Case in point is Perrin at Malden.

I'm not saying the command structure won't remain stable. I'm saying that at the very top, where you have ONE person sending out orders, you need to figure out whether its a Seanchan or a Randlander. And this is where the struggle vis a vis Tuon and Rand comes in. Whichever submits to the other gives up the ability to appoint that commander, which is a big deal.

Perrin could have argued himself hoarse on why he needs to be in charge and Tylee would never have budged. Because doing so implies that the EVA is inferior to Perrin!

And what if the Ever Victorious Army IS inferior? Bashere w/ Asha'man and 5000 men is clearly superior to 40,000 Seanchan with damane (yes, they had them at the end). This is the problem. Tuon won't, CAN'T admit that her force is inferior, especially as she needs their undivided loyalty if she wants to retake Seanchan. And if she won't admit that maybe Rand has the better generals, which he clearly does, by the way, then the very best case scenario is that the forces of Light are commanded by a guy who is good but not brilliant.

But faced with a well thought out plan, she fell in and filled her place without qualm even though it'd been written out for her. She saw the merit of his plan.

But Tylee WAS in charge. Sure, she and Perrin cooperated in planning and executing the attack, but when push came to shove, it was a Seanchan officer giving the commands.

Merit is what should determine precedence in a democratic setting and that's where equality comes in. You choose the most skilled person for the job. Not whims. Rand came with a demand for Tuon to follow him to TLB. She refused.

And you don't think Tuon has a demand for Rand to kneel? In her POVs she's said it numerous times! She never got around to voicing it, but thats her only objective in meeting with Rand!

Merit CANNOT determine the situation here, because a.) neither side is perfectly aware of how good the officers on the other side are, and b.) making the appointment is a highly charged political event. Putting General Galgan in charge, despite his being a bit less qualified than, say, Bashere, is worth it to Tuon because it symbolizes that she's Roosevelt and not Churchill, and nominally in charge and can push her wishes and whims through.

She expects him to bow to her despite the fact that she doesn't have a crystal throne to sit on!
And SC culture demands property to prostrate before the crystal throne not bow!

They can always sail back.

My proposal, for avoidance of doubt, is not based on what Rand and Tuon are doing but what they ought to be doing.

And I'm saying what they ought to be doing, which is so easy to see its not worth saying, is impossible under the present conditions.

Left? Elayne tossed him out! First thing. You trying to put a good face on it?

Have you read the books? Honestly, have you? Rand's first comment is to the effect of "I want Elayne to have the throne of Andor and Cairhien." The second Elayne returns, the Aiel LEAVE. They're not kicked out, they voluntarily depart to a camp outside the city, where they sit before going off somewhere else (Tear, right?). Elayne even comments that crime has gone up because the Aiel were able to maintain order where her own soldiers were spread too thin.

In fact, Dyelin says to Elayne when she comes back, "do you mean to accept the throne from the Dragon Reborn?" She says something patriotic and strong sounding and Dyelin is happy, but the implication is as clear as a slap in the face; Rand voluntarily left so that Elayne could have the throne.

Exactly. He made sure that devastation would come out of Hawkwing's reign. Now the shadow has been sowing division all over in an effort to ensure that the DR cannot win no matter what he does. The moment he dies, the coalition he put together will fall apart and probably tear the world (or whatever remains of it) apart.

That would be your assumption. Firstly, the administrative structure of Hawkwing's empire, as little as we know of it, was far far far different from Rand's. Rand leads a federated coalition of states, so to speak. He is king of only Illian. Tear, Andor, Cairhien, Arad Doman, Amadicia... he either puts an sovereign on the throne or promises to. Hawkwing shattered all bonds of kingship and soldered one empire from the rubble. When he died, people tried to take the kingdom wholesale because there were no longer the same independant kingdoms. That won't happen in the same way, after TG, because there will still be a number of royal lines in place.

And besides, the strong implication of the BWB is that Hawkwing's empire would have survived intact if not for the machinations of Ishy. There were a number of nobles on the cusp of taking the throne who were suddenly, suspiciously, killed... it was only once these frontrunners died that things descended into true anarchy. That can't happen again, because the Shadow won't be free to interfere.

Ozymandias
04-01-2010, 01:53 PM
She got 50 out of 200 eventually. A success rate of 25% despite the fact that she choose when, where and how. 75% suceesfully escaped. And no knew prisoners! Not even one warded so she can be found later ore traced.


Firstly, she nailed 50/70 (is it even 50?) in her own camp, a rather more impressive success rate. And the escape of even one Black Sister to the Tower ends the whole thing... then everyone knows and runs. She had to handle it delicately, because she couldn't go and grab everyone in broad daylight. How do you suggest she should have done it? She had no authority in the Tower, and thus couldn't have even tried for them until she was Amyrlin, by which time it was too late.

And besides, losing 1/8 (assuming an equal number of DF among Asha'man) of the channelers the Shadow could have brought ot bear without any losses for the Light is a huge, huge victory.

Heinz
04-01-2010, 03:37 PM
2) Egwene holds the position of amyrlin among the rebels with her war powers still in place.


War powers were specific to war against Elaida do Avriny a'Roihan. It isn't clear if this would enable her to nab 200 Sisters without clear explanation, by the end of which warning would already be out (hence her little scene in the Rebel Hall). Also, only 70 were in the Rebel camp, which is as far as her War Powers Act would carry authority.


3) She has just met with the BA hunters and knows there are at least fifteen women within the tower who are not BA. Five of them sitters! Plus ten rebels that she could have commanded. And they even had a few BA already though I don't recall if Egwene knew of these.


And she sent word to them to apprehend Alviarin. They failed, however.


5) Plus she also knew of Alvirhin's letter to Rand, and she was very suspicious of it. Finding she's BA now (no matter how high) should have had her asking questions.


Agreed there. Though she hasn't had the opportunity to act on it anyway, I'm surprised she had no thought connection of 'Hey, maybe Rand should know.' And then going further, 'Hey, maybe I should give Rand the names of the Blacks Verin listed who are with Rand now, or show Rand the proof via the Oath Rod and apprehend them myself (with help/support, she is Amyrlin now after all)'.


6) She also knew of the original 13 BA that left the WT with Liandrian and the two plots they hatched including the one to free Taim. I am very surprised none of the three supergirls have said anything about Taim considering what they know. Not even in their POVs and we know Elayne at least has wondered about Taim often.


Both agree and not sure she can base any actions off this knowledge. As I recall, the '3 Supergirls' obtained two different stories from 2 different BA Sisters. They acted on one by basing their next journey on it. This other story, about Taim, is something that Elayne also knows. If anyone, its Elayne that should be piping up about this situation, before Egwene. To a point, a potential Black M'Hael would be a concern for any of the Aes Sedai and one the Amyrlin needs to heed, though your point of why hasn't any of the 3 girls put this together themselves makes me think Elayne should have ages ago; as an Aes Sedai, as Queen of Andor where the Black Tower resides, and as lover of the Dragon Reborn whom the M'Hael supposedly serves in the Light. But that all gets off topic, I think.


8) Was Elaida's name among the black? Or nothing said about her? That could have helped formulate a plan of action.


Verin included special notes that she looked hard at Elaida, but could find no evidence that she herself was Black, only that advisors highly placed and close to Elaida must be Black, such as Alviarin. The impression I got reading was that Verin concluded that Elaida was most likely not Black, but influenced by them without Elaida's knowledge. Egwene read this, it was one of the first things she was looking for.


9) Nynaeve and Elayne were also definitely not BA and could have helped.


Nynaeve was busy with a dark Rand. (maybe still dark? I vote no, but I've seen others consider the possibility. Will be an interesting read in the next book, either way. Off-topic again.)

Elayne wasn't used in this book. Perhaps in the next we'll find why she was not able to help.


10) And she had Travelling, mirror of mists, masking and more to help her.


As she acted, these would not have helped her. In the course of her actions with the Rebel Hall, her presence was necessary and required all her attention. By the time the day's work of weeding them out and beheading them was done, word would have reached the Black Sisters in the tower by way of the 20 or so 'Rebel' Black Sisters that escaped. That's how the Tower Black Sisters must have found out in the first place anyway.

By the time Egwene was in control of the Tower itself, the Black Sisters had fled. It was one of the first things Egwene saw to; confirming that the Tower Hall was legit/not Black, and then reswearing all Tower Sisters at the same time. (I forget, did they do all Initiates, period, to include Novices and Accepted? I know Verin had little information on potential future Black Sisters here, so I wonder if that detail was covered by the swearing via swearing the one Oath of lies, like with Nicola, then unswearing once they are satisfied with the answer.)


Now, could she have acted differently? I think so. In my couple of read-throughs of the book now, I'm still not convinced she HAD to act at that moment with the Rebel Hall to remove the Black Sisters. At least from her point of view. Aside from Verin's book, nothing had changed from one day to the next. And since the Black would not necessarily know anything about Verin's secret journal that Egwene now posesses, there wouldn't be anything to say life would not go on as they'd planned. Why not wait until she had control of all Aes Sedai, THEN act? 50 out of 70 would then become about 140 out of 200.

However, as I type this, it occurs to me that I (and maybe you as well) are viewing this from Egwene's perspective only. With the information she had at hand, why did she NEED to act on the Purge when she did? I'm still not convinced of an answer to that, excepting only that she wasn't sure what the Black and/or Forsaken and/or Dark One did or could know. Perhaps reason enough.

But I am now thinking of how events may have played out very differently during that day. Remember, the Tower Hall decided that day to consider Elaida lost and raise Egwene. The fact that it took all day, from the time the council of the 5 Ajah heads decided that course of action the morning after the Seanchan raid to the moment before Egwene and Bryne were to launch an attack while just enough light of day held for the new battle, implies that it wasn't a quick slam-dunk debate in the Tower Hall. Perhaps faster in that it took only a day, not days, but still not 5 Ajah heads telling their Ajah Sitters 'Vote Egwene', and so they did. Throw in the influence of Blacks, and the presence of the Red Ajah in first the deliberations and then in Egwene's actual raising, and would Egwene still have been raised Amyrlin?

So the Purge was necessary at the time it occurred, and at that time I don't see as there were better options available to Egwene and the tools/political powers she had available at the time.

Ozymandias
04-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Agreed there. Though she hasn't had the opportunity to act on it anyway, I'm surprised she had no thought connection of 'Hey, maybe Rand should know.' And then going further, 'Hey, maybe I should give Rand the names of the Blacks Verin listed who are with Rand now, or show Rand the proof via the Oath Rod and apprehend them myself (with help/support, she is Amyrlin now after all)'.


Why would she? Not one female character except Min has shown any desire to help Rand. They all want to control him, because they know whats best for him.

Like every stupid little noble, Egwene is just as concerned with maintaining the power of the Tower after Tarmon Gai'don as she is in winning the damn thing.

Spasmodean
04-01-2010, 03:43 PM
And correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the strong impression that Byrne was a commoner who was given noble status as a reward for his duties, or as a part of his post.

I think you've just got mixed up between Byrne and Ituralde.

Heinz
04-01-2010, 03:55 PM
Why would she? Not one female character except Min has shown any desire to help Rand. They all want to control him, because they know whats best for him.

Like every stupid little noble, Egwene is just as concerned with maintaining the power of the Tower after Tarmon Gai'don as she is in winning the damn thing.


Very true on her desire to control, which is ironic because she thinks of herself as one of the best placed because she can work with Rand. Yet she tells Rand and his companions (see also: Mat, just before sending him to find the Bowl of the Winds with Elayne and Nynaeve) very little. Giving up a little information that would not harm them would make huge differences in the end result. Though Rand hasn't been any better himself. Sure, one could argue he's returning the favor, but the end result is the same.

Spasmodean
04-01-2010, 08:41 PM
Now, could she have acted differently? I think so.

I think we're separating the characters from their setting somewhat in discussing this.

Remember that folks in Randland BELIEVE in the Light vs Shadow in their hearts, they don't have churches or organised religion at all. They don't have to take it as an act of faith that the devil exists and the closest thing they probably have to an organised religion (since Masema bit the bullet) are the sisters in the White Tower.

So you ask why Egwene needed to get the Blacks when she did? I say it's because she was so sickened to her core that someone could be a Darkfriend Aes Sedai that her conviction and belief in the Light left no other option, they could simply not be suffered to exist a moment longer than necessary.

Heinz
04-01-2010, 11:25 PM
So you ask why Egwene needed to get the Blacks when she did? I say it's because she was so sickened to her core that someone could be a Darkfriend Aes Sedai that her conviction and belief in the Light left no other option, they could simply not be suffered to exist a moment longer than necessary.

I'm still not certain that means she should throw out the chance at a good, thought out plan to probably get more than just the 'Rebel' Black Sisters. However, as I said and as I think on this more, to quote Gen. Patton Jr., 'A good plan now is better than a perfect plan 10 minutes from now.' Its hard to say what waiting might have cost (discussing it like it was an actual past event, but that's the fun of it I suppose). So I am not as certain as I was that her action was precipitant.

Ozymandias
04-02-2010, 12:06 AM
I'm still not certain that means she should throw out the chance at a good, thought out plan to probably get more than just the 'Rebel' Black Sisters. However, as I said and as I think on this more, to quote Gen. Patton Jr., 'A good plan now is better than a perfect plan 10 minutes from now.' Its hard to say what waiting might have cost (discussing it like it was an actual past event, but that's the fun of it I suppose). So I am not as certain as I was that her action was precipitant.

She threw out nothing. Listen; she did the best she could. If even 2 black sisters escaped, then the odds are the passed on word of the persecution. We know 20 escaped. I think (need to verify that number). That means, because we know the Black Ajah operates in cells of three, that a the majority of the Tower sisters would be informed within a very short amount of time that they'd been discovered. She moved as quickly and effectively as she could. She couldn't have arrested anyone without the consent of the Hall, and she couldn't get that consent without exposing Sheriam and Moria. The point being, there are a lot of possible leaks, and the fact that she got as many as she did, given the cirumstances, are about as well as anyone can be expected to do. I've thought about it, and given her position, can't think of a more effective way to go about it

Toss the dice
04-02-2010, 04:21 AM
As much as I despise Egwene and her attitude towards Rand, I agree that she had a good plan in capturing the black sisters and also carried it out well.

Although, I was a little surprised more was not done with the Warders of the black sisters. Personally, I would find it difficult to be able to sift the darkfriend Warders from the ones that were innocent. It would seem extremely difficult to tell the difference no matter what you did. Examples might be asking the black sisters if their Warders were darkfriends, you have no real way of knowing if they're lying or not, and you don't know if the Warders themselves are lying either.

But at the very least, I think they should have asked all of the black sisters facing execution to let their Warders out of their bonds, one would figure at least some of them would comply...giving a chance to at least some of the Warders if they truly are innocent. But then again, why would one expect Aes Sedai to do this, as Warders are completely trivial and aren't important as human beings right? (sarcasm) Indeed, capturing the black sisters themselves was the most important thing, but it seems the Aes Sedai focused solely on the execution after they were caught, and completely throwing the insignificant, possibly innocent Warders to the wind.

I too thought about sending someone to Rand by way of Traveling ASAP as soon as it was learned 2 or so Aes Sedai sworn to him were Black Ajah. That is a fairly BIG deal. Potentially world-dooming in fact. The Elza and Semirhage incident proved that well enough. Little consolation that the Elza incident happened before the black sisters were known. However, TGS ended fairly quickly after the black sisters were caught, so maybe someone will be sent very shortly as of the next book or someone already was sent off-screen.

At this stage, if I was Rand I wouldn't give 2 craps about the White Tower AS, Salidar AS, or (now), the newly united AS. He has Ashaman and quite a few bonded AS to work with, as well as the AS sworn to him and Cadsuane's lot. If I was Rand I would basically let the united WT Aes Sedai know that there is no way in hell they will ever be able to guide him or control him in any way. It would be their choice to willingly come to him, to HELP him at his direction and HELP save the world, if that is what they have finally decided they want to do. Until then, they can watch from afar and pull their now-pointless strings as much as they want, as they've been doing up until this point anyway. Essentially, they can go screw themselves for all he cares, but he will take their help if they decide to stop being ignorant little girls.

GonzoTheGreat
04-02-2010, 05:02 AM
Perhaps all those BA Sisters who ran away from the Tower have gone to "help" Rand?
That would be a nice surprise for anyone eventually send to inform Rand of the problem, wouldn't it?

greatwolf
04-02-2010, 06:37 PM
They're also completely unskilled in fighting Shadowspawn. Which, when it comes down to it, might be the more important factor. And they most certainly will not supply the most channelers. There is no evidence showing that the Seanchan have 2000+ channelers, which is what Rand, or the non-Seanchan force, would ostensibly supply (based off the rough numbers we have of Black/White Tower occupancy rates).



The damane are better OP fighters. The attack on the WT made that clear. It might actually be better for the FoL if the SC damane faced off against the DF channelers rather than Rand's AS or ashaman. Alivia represented them well at the cleansing!


And what if the Ever Victorious Army IS inferior? Bashere w/ Asha'man and 5000 men is clearly superior to 40,000 Seanchan with damane (yes, they had them at the end).

Not quite true. The SC now have Travelling. At least that should be a safe assumption.



But Tylee WAS in charge.


:confused:


Sure, she and Perrin cooperated in planning and executing the attack, but when push came to shove, it was a Seanchan officer giving the commands.



Perrin had complete command of his forces. I don't remember seeing any SC giving orders to 2Rivers men. Even among Perrin's group, all the different parties work together while maintaining their individual separate command structures: ashaman separate from AS separate from WOs. Ghealdanin/Mayeners/aiel and 2Rivers archers all separate.



Merit CANNOT determine the situation here,


Not choosing the best chap for the job could and often is the easiest way to lose. Especially something as critical as TG. No I think they'll easily put merit over political all selfish considerations especially once they realize they've run out of time. "Death comes"


because a.) neither side is perfectly aware of how good the officers on the other side are,


Its not so difficult to find out. You can tell a rookie on a chess board in a few moves, maybe even the first move.



They can always sail back.



lol.



Have you read the books? Honestly, have you? Rand's first comment is to the effect of "I want Elayne to have the throne of Andor and Cairhien." The second Elayne returns, the Aiel LEAVE. They're not kicked out, they voluntarily depart to a camp outside the city, where they sit before going off somewhere else (Tear, right?). Elayne even comments that crime has gone up because the Aiel were able to maintain order where her own soldiers were spread too thin.



Taim rubbed his chin thoughtfully. "I understand you've taken down the Dragon
banners all over Caemlyn, Mistress
Elayne." There was amusement in his deep voice, if none in his eyes! Dyelin hissed
in fury at the slight to Elayne, but he ignored her. "The Saldaeans have withdrawn
to the Legion of the Dragon's camp, I hear, and soon the last of the Aiel will be in
camps outside the city, as well. What will he say when he learns?" There was no
doubt who he meant. "And after he's sent you a gift, too. From the south. I'll have
it delivered later."
"I will ally Andor with the Dragon Reborn in due course," she told him coldly, "but
Andor is not a conquered province, nor for him or anyone else." She made her hands
stay relaxed on the arms of the chair. Light, talking the Aiel and Saldaeans into
leaving had been her biggest achievement yet, and even with the flareup in crime...


Hawkwing's empire would have survived intact if not for the machinations of Ishy.


Same tricks that he's playing now, only magnified a thousand times. The forsaken have helped to build the walls between AS, between ajahs, and between Rand and AS, Rand and SC. Isn't it obvious what they want?

greatwolf
04-02-2010, 07:32 PM
And she sent word to them to apprehend Alviarin. They failed, however.


Yes but could she have achieved better coordiantion with the non blacks in the WT? Could Egwene have gotten better results? I freely admit that I like your assesment of Egwene's situation and the difficult decision she faced.

But however tough your exams were, 25% can hardly be called good grades, sorry. You're excusing Egwene on the basis of she did the best she could in the situation she found herself. Maybe even a little panic at not getting any of them.


But consider the repercussions: If she goes for even one of the BA, it could tip off the rest and Verin's life work would be wasted. Worse, the BA would be able to go into deeper hiding, and those that Verin did not get could escape detection totally.

Did Verin give a list of those she wasn't sure of? Those she was sure were not black? One could be as important as the other. And it was up to Egwene not to waste the information.

The loss of the entire 200 would have been a very serious blow for the shadow and a morale booster for the light. By itself, it is enough to secure for Egwene the amyrlin seat!


Egwene had a choice of waiting till after reunification of the WT or going for the BA before that. And she also had the option of involving Elaida or not.


Was it worth bringing Elaida on board? If verin was certain Elaida wasn't BA, why didn't she give her a list? Or the list?


Since the SC attack had already taken place, I think it would have been best for Egwene to use Travelling to nab as many of the BA in the WT as possible.


She made no provisions in her plans for errors. That she might not get all the BA in the rebel hall, because if she missed even one, then the plan's obviously finished. She would have needed something far more cautious and subtle.


With masking mirror of mist and Travelling, she could have turned the BA hunters into a potent force against the 200 BA women. How long would it take them to locate and capture the 200 working in twos or threes?

After that, you can root out those Verin missed by using the oath rod to reswear those remaining. And reswear carefully.


As Verin noted, some have been DFs before coming to the WT. Those aren't even BA. Nor are the forsaken. They could swear on the oath rod that they are not and have nevr been BA!

nameless
04-03-2010, 01:55 AM
[QUOTE=greatwolf;92788]

There is no evidence showing that the Seanchan have 2000+ channelers, which is what Rand, or the non-Seanchan force, would ostensibly supply (based off the rough numbers we have of Black/White Tower occupancy rates).


Everyone always forgets the Wise Ones. Roughly 500 per clan by 11 clans means more than 5,000 Aiel women who can channel, plus a few hundred Kinswomen and the Sea Folk's Windfinder contingent, all of whom can channel and none of whom have sworn off creating weapons or killing with the Power.

greatwolf
04-03-2010, 01:06 PM
Everyone always forgets the Wise Ones. Roughly 500 per clan by 11 clans means more than 5,000 Aiel women who can channel, plus a few hundred Kinswomen and the Sea Folk's Windfinder contingent, all of whom can channel and none of whom have sworn off creating weapons or killing with the Power.


I didn't forget them, but since Rand and Tuon do not know of these people, I couldn't very well make arguements based on those figures. If Rand and Tuon were having disarmament talks however, they may feature because Tuon would bring up WOs channeling as part of Rand's forces. But for now, I don't see reminding him he may be a superior position already.


BTW, be careful not to delete part or all of the "QUOTE" tags when editing your post. You made it seem like that was my post when it was in fact Ozy's. You have toh! :p



Elayne wasn't used in this book. Perhaps in the next we'll find why she was not able to help


You don't know? She was busy in her bath at the time. You didn't miss all those hints about drought and the dry weather did you?




Now, could she have acted differently? I think so. In my couple of read-throughs of the book now, I'm still not convinced she HAD to act at that moment with the Rebel Hall to remove the Black Sisters. At least from her point of view. Aside from Verin's book, nothing had changed from one day to the next. And since the Black would not necessarily know anything about Verin's secret journal that Egwene now posesses, there wouldn't be anything to say life would not go on as they'd planned. Why not wait until she had control of all Aes Sedai, THEN act? 50 out of 70 would then become about 140 out of 200


Essentially agreed. The way I read it, it seems Egwene panicked:


She glanced at the bed again.
"Yes," Egwene answered, covering the sound by scooting her stool back. So her allies didn't know that Verin was dead. That was good; the secret was still safe, for the moment

She may have been wondering how long she could keep it secret. Verin only managed it for 70years!


"Be careful where you tread. Be careful how you strike. I will leave it to you to decide if you want to try to get all of them at once, or if you want to take the most important ones separately in secret. Perhaps you will decide to watch and see if you can counter their plots. A good interrogation might yield light upon some of the questions I was not able to answer. So many decisions you must make, for one so young."


The options Verin considered did not include taking out the rebel BA only. It would have been much better and easier to make sheriam and alvi disappear first and then get the rest of the BA after. As leaders, the objective would be simply to get more information before striking at the rest.


And the strike needed to be simultaneous. With Travelling, that would have been very possible. It would enable them strike at the BA from all sides at once. While Egwene was revealing to the SAS hall, the Ba hunters in the WT should have been taking out whoever they could, starting with the Sitters that are BA.


And the time interval after the revelations in the hall was far too long. The elaborate cover Egwene devised gave the BA time. Suppose Arangar had been listening on the Hall with saidin? Or anyone else?


And why test for BA only knowing one of the forsaken (who isn't BA ) was walking the halls? Why did she not make sure there would be no loopholes in the wording? Even if she had little experience with twisting words, Suian was there to help her. Oh I forgot, she decided to stop talking to Suian. Shame!

When you put a child in charge, you get purity. But you also get errors all the time as they learn the ropes. Egwene, IMO, has only demonstrated she's a baby.


The Blacks seemed more likely to choose someone they could manipulate to be Amyrlin, then install a Black Keeper to keep her in line

So Egwene was raised by the BA! with a keeper and other influential AS close to her to keep her in line. Wait, has she actually realized that?

Ozymandias
04-04-2010, 07:38 PM
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The damane are better OP fighters. The attack on the WT made that clear. It might actually be better for the FoL if the SC damane faced off against the DF channelers rather than Rand's AS or ashaman. Alivia represented them well at the cleansing!


False. The best OP fighters we have are Asha'man, who have beaten just about every elite military there is; the Aiel at Dumai's Wells, and a large army with damane in Altara.

Not quite true. The SC now have Travelling. At least that should be a safe assumption.

True. But the Asha'man have two or three advantages over damane. Firstly, they are independent operators, and don't need the sul'dam to point them (a problem if you sul'dam gets fried, no?). Secondly, they're stronger, as we know men are on average stronger than women.

The disadvantage, of course, is that a goodly number of them are DFs... though we have to assume a number of damane/sul'dam are as well.

Perrin had complete command of his forces. I don't remember seeing any SC giving orders to 2Rivers men. Even among Perrin's group, all the different parties work together while maintaining their individual separate command structures: ashaman separate from AS separate from WOs. Ghealdanin/Mayeners/aiel and 2Rivers archers all separate.

Perrin was in the middle of the battle, running around looking for Faile. He wasn't giving any orders at all. What if 10.000 more Aiel had appeared? Its Tylee giving the orders. Just because you don't understand the concept that in battle, decisions are handed down from one person, who may or may not have advisors, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Not choosing the best chap for the job could and often is the easiest way to lose. Especially something as critical as TG. No I think they'll easily put merit over political all selfish considerations especially once they realize they've run out of time. "Death comes"

So your theory here is that the people of Randland, great and small, will decide to give over their own ambitions for the altruistic advancement of all? Despite the fact that none of them have done so, even knowing TG is imminent? Don't be naive. A huge portion of the tension in this series is the idiocy and greed of those in power.

Look at the Tower. They didn't choose the best leader. They chose the most controllable leader. Same with the rebels, though they lucked into a good Amyrlin. Don't confuse your ideals of what people will do with that they've been doing for 8000 pages or so.

Its not so difficult to find out. You can tell a rookie on a chess board in a few moves, maybe even the first move.


But given current political considerations, they'll never meet. Yes, the general Ituralde killed in the Prologue knows he was beaten by his better, but he's dead. Rand and Tuon can't agree on a policy of detente, much less alliance. Tuon is actively hurting Rand's forces, yet again proving the ridiculousness of your idealism. If they can't agree, it doesn't matter whos best, because they'll fight each other and not with each other. If they don't fight, how can they know?

Same tricks that he's playing now, only magnified a thousand times. The forsaken have helped to build the walls between AS, between ajahs, and between Rand and AS, Rand and SC. Isn't it obvious what they wan

Yes... disunity. But in the aftermath of TG, there won't be any Chosen to interfere. Is that difficult to comprehend? If the Light loses, its a moot point. If they win, people are hardly gonna let Moridin & Co run around influencing things. They'll be dead or in hiding. Ishamael only managed to influence things in the other cases through a disguise, and by sending Trollocs. He can't be in disguise after and there will be no Trollocs. So how does he break up the Empire? With what machinations? You need to picture the situation after TG, not just move the present conditions forward a year or so.

Your discussing an ideal situation which has not, will not, and effectively cannot happen. Rand and Tuon CAN'T ally right now, because Mat isn't in the picture and they each think the future of humanity depends on the one submitting to the other.

The nobles and leaders of the various factions WON'T all of a sudden realizing what pricks they're being. They haven't yet and won't, ever.

Charlz Guybon
06-13-2010, 10:45 AM
False. The best OP fighters we have are Asha'man, who have beaten just about every elite military there is; the Aiel at Dumai's Wells, and a large army with damane in Altara.



True. But the Asha'man have two or three advantages over damane. Firstly, they are independent operators, and don't need the sul'dam to point them (a problem if you sul'dam gets fried, no?). Secondly, they're stronger, as we know men are on average stronger than women.

The disadvantage, of course, is that a goodly number of them are DFs... though we have to assume a number of damane/sul'dam are as well.

Suroth said the few sul'dam were darkfriends.

The damane were handicapped in that fight because the sul'dam were unnerved by the one power weirdness caused by the Bowl. The asha'man seemed less bothered by it.

knightofround
06-13-2010, 11:16 AM
Personally, I think the reason why Egwene went for taking out all the BA immediately was because she got burned by delaying Moghienden's trial.

In retrospect I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea, with traveling rediscovered it would make it incredibly easy for any BA to escape once they knew she was on to them. In fact it was only like an hour between the culling in the rebel camp and the culling in the white tower.

So it was either one big swoop, which was guarenteed to catch about half of them, or pluck out the cells, which might have captured a majority of them, but it also might have given the majority time to flee. At least this way Egwene & the AS will have the comfort of knowing that every sister remaining *is not* BA.

Another thing to think about is that the BA still is not public knowledge. Getting rid of a bunch of sisters during the overthrow will make the covering up easier.

I think she made the right decision. Could she have captured more if she delayed? Possibly, but it wasn't worth the risk imo.

greatwolf
06-13-2010, 06:25 PM
Personally, I think the reason why Egwene went for taking out all the BA immediately was because she got burned by delaying Moghienden's trial.

In retrospect I don't think it was necessarily a bad idea, with traveling rediscovered it would make it incredibly easy for any BA to escape once they knew she was on to them. In fact it was only like an hour between the culling in the rebel camp and the culling in the white tower.


Actually it took about half a day or so. But I'm not certain I remember correctly. She didn't make much use of people who were certainly non BA.


The damane were handicapped in that fight because the sul'dam were unnerved by the one power weirdness caused by the Bowl. The asha'man seemed less bothered by it

Thank you.


I've been rereading that fight and the odds were staggering. Fifty suldam/damane pairs against about three hundred AS right inside their home base! Shouldn't this raid go down in the record books somewhere? :)


E : found one of the quotes I wanted


Each of the Black Ajah members on Verin's list had been seen healthy and alive following the Seanchan attack. But most had escaped before Egwene arrived at the Tower to take her seat...

...What had tipped them off? Unfortunately, it had probably something to do with Egwene seizing the Black Ajah in the rebel camp. She had worried about overplaying her hand. But what else should she have done? Her only hope had been to seize every Black in the camp and hope that word didn't spread to the White Tower

How was she so sure she could get them all? With Travelling, even one woman escaping would put the fox in there.