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halo6819
03-23-2010, 05:06 PM
i would have gone and videoed the thing again but my mom came home from Israel this weekend...

Isabel
03-23-2010, 11:34 PM
Look at RAFO or DM.

WinespringBrother
03-24-2010, 02:34 PM
there is a thread on readandfindout.com but not really a lot of new information... mostly rafo's and that it turns out that Sulin was not supposed to be with Rand's group after all LOL

GonzoTheGreat
03-25-2010, 04:57 AM
Well, that last overturns quite a lot of speculation, so it is worth knowning.

halo6819
03-25-2010, 02:54 PM
i dont know who did the reporting but man does it not make any sense. im not sure if we can actually rely on whoever it was that they heard brandon right. i mean, i know ogier accents and everything could be an interesting side thread, but two "shadow sworn" ogier steadings.... guy sounds like felix...

Tree Brother
03-25-2010, 07:22 PM
guy sounds like felix...

I believe it is. FelixPax = Dida. At least I believe that is the case, if you follow the posts at the 13th Depository forum.

Terez
03-25-2010, 08:01 PM
Yup, it's Felix. I didn't add anything from his last signing report do the database, and I probably won't add this one either.

Do you post at 13thD, Tree Brother?

halo6819
03-25-2010, 08:43 PM
damn, i was hopeing to meet him IRL... guess it will be next signing.

btw, i posted on brandons facebook about sulin... so hopefully he will reply

Tree Brother
03-25-2010, 09:08 PM
Do you post at 13thD, Tree Brother?

Rarely, but I read it. I actually responded to Dida's thread about Elayne's dreams. For some reason Dida/Felix seems to believe that everyone is a dreamer. And the Luca theory is like nails on a chalkboard. I sure hope that doesn't come to pass. (Besides, if he cannot make money off it, there is no way he is going into the ToG).

Luckers
03-27-2010, 08:30 AM
Mmm. I've been in contact with Bob at Encylopaedia WoT about this. Given it opposes three distinct signings and it's from Dida--not reliable.

That being said, I emailed Brandon as well. I'll let you know if he replies.

It's a problematic piece of information on another level. I was using Sulin's presence with Rand to answer another question--specifically, if Cadsuane and the Wise One's needed to find Perrin, why did they go through Nynaeve? Why not simply have the Wise One's find Edarra or one of the others dreams and ask her directly? Amys, Bair and Melaine all have met Edarra in person, and knew her [LoC:19], which is all you need to find someone's dreams, though it can take time if over a distance (time they had).

Additionally how did Cadsuane know where Perrin had been at the beginning of tGS? She states that she'd assumed Perrin would go eastward into lands Rand held--but what gave her the basis of where she'd thought he'd begun? Of course it could be that the Wise One's knew he'd been sent after Masema, but that still doesn't answer the question of how she knew he'd be on the move anywhere.

My answers, in my head, had been that Sulin, the Wise One's (and perhaps the entire Aiel contingent) had left Perrin some time since (thereby explaining all the talk on gateways). By the time Cadsuane knew she needed Perrin he'd moved far from where Edarra had last seen him--ergo the need for Nynaeve.

FelixPax
04-03-2010, 01:18 AM
Rarely, but I read it. I actually responded to Dida's thread about Elayne's dreams. For some reason Dida/Felix seems to believe that everyone is a dreamer.

I never claimed everyone was a "Dreamer", in both ways, whether the Talent of entering the TAR or the Talent of entering other individuals Dreams.

All I said was that Aviendha had some amount of Talent to enter the TAR, and that the Wise Ones were trying to train her in entering other individuals Dreams. Aviendha had not been able to enter one of the Wise One's Dreams in tFoH book, for example.

I agreed with Brandon Sanderson in Woodlands Hills event, that none of the six Wise Ones with Perrin's Group in CoT or KoD books is a Dreamwalker. Meaning those six cannot find other people's Dreams, nor enter the TAR on their own. Nor do they have a ter'angreal item to aid entry into the TAR.


And the Luca theory is like nails on a chalkboard. I sure hope that doesn't come to pass. (Besides, if he cannot make money off it, there is no way he is going into the ToG).

Doubter.

Mmm. I've been in contact with Bob at Encylopaedia WoT about this. Given it opposes three distinct signings and it's from Dida--not reliable.

Get over it, the rest of the audience and the organizer of the event heard the same thing twice at the Barnes & Noble in Woodland Hills, CA: that "Sulin was an Error" in tGS Book.

Brandon said one thing in Pasadena, CA in November 2009 and another in Woodland Hills, CA in March 2010 about Sulin.

I am accurate about this fact. Very accurate. Have any money to gamble, Luckers?

Cause your going to lose it all...if your did. :D

Luckers
04-04-2010, 01:12 AM
Kathana spoke to Brandon and confirmed it anyway.

Terez
04-04-2010, 01:24 AM
Confirmed what? (Just to be clear.)

Luckers
04-04-2010, 01:29 AM
Here is her quote.

Alright, I asked Brandon about Sulin this evening. He said that he had originally place Sulin like that very intentionally, intending to do "something" with her. However, after a conversation with Maria, he became convinced that his original plans regarding this character were not workable, so Sulin will be edited out of future editions of TGS.

So not a misstep as so many have thought, but rather a rethinking of her role. These things happen. They've even happened in this series before, the most notable example being Robert Jordan's shifting of the Three Oaths to allow balefiring the ever loving frack out of Darkfriends, along with Shadowspawn.

Terez
04-04-2010, 01:31 AM
Yeah, I actually went over there and found it right after I posted (figured there would be something there). Anything else from Minicon?

Luckers
04-04-2010, 01:44 AM
Not yet. I'm going to pop up a thread for it. I'll let you know if I get anything extra. What about you? Got anything yet?

Terez
04-04-2010, 01:45 AM
Nope, everything I get goes here immediately. Even though it's not the TGS book tour any more, this will probably be my drop place for any interview-related stuff until JordanCon.

halo6819
04-04-2010, 03:53 PM
i wonder if we are going to find out what his "something intresting" was

Luckers
04-05-2010, 07:11 AM
Incidentally Terez, in the database you've listed Sulin as an error--that doesn't seem to be what Brandon has stated--an error implies Brandon put Sulin there without thinking. He put her in intentionally, and later changed his mind.

GonzoTheGreat
04-05-2010, 07:39 AM
Incidentally Terez, in the database you've listed Sulin as an error--that doesn't seem to be what Brandon has stated--an error implies Brandon put Sulin there without thinking. He put her in intentionally, and later changed his mind.But leaving her in was an error, wasn't it?

Luckers
04-05-2010, 07:52 AM
Not unless he and Maria had their discussion prior to the release, which given the tGS signing answers on the issue I rather suspect they did not.

Terez
04-05-2010, 08:13 AM
It's an error either way. The quote makes it clear enough what the details are. ;)

Luckers
04-05-2010, 10:04 AM
No, it's not. An error is something done wrong unintentionally. Brandon completely intended this and changed his mind upon consultation with Maria.

This is entirely acceptable--Brandon came in at the end of a 14 book series, of course he might miss subtle progressions of plot as laid out in the notes. I think it wrong that your stating this as an error. It presents the wrong idea. Brandon is doing the best he can, and he doesn't need our judgemental bulldiddy.

I genuinely think you should fix this Terez--as a thanks for what Brandon is doing, if not simple decency.

Terez
04-05-2010, 10:12 AM
No, it's not. An error is something done wrong unintentionally. Brandon completely intended this and changed his mind upon consultation with Maria.
Because Maria pointed out that he was in error (it seems likely it was a continuity and/or timeline issue that he was not made fully aware of until after the tour). No one is being judgmental but you. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
04-05-2010, 10:22 AM
It was an error, but definitely not a bad one. It gave us a couple of months of quite heated debates over why Sulin was where she was, why others didn't use the obvious benefits of her presence, and why this all meant that she'd killed Asmodean.
It would have been bad if BS had tried to cover it up, but he didn't. It would have been bad if he had changed the plot to incorporate this change, but he didn't. He had apparently considered using her presence there in some way, and then decided it would not work. If he had carried through anyway, then that would have been blameworthy.

As it is?
Now it is basically a fairly elaborate typo. An error to remedy in the next print (as will happen, we've heard from you), but definitely not something that can be entirely prevented at all, and certainly not without adding another year or so to the editing process.

Terez
04-05-2010, 10:24 AM
Right, but it's silly to pretend like it wasn't an error. If it wasn't, then they wouldn't be fixing it in the next printing.

GonzoTheGreat
04-05-2010, 10:46 AM
What is the meaning of "is"?
Ehr ... I mean ... what is the meaning of "error"?

I think that's the issue: that we use another definition of error than Luckers does. Since both definitions are unstated, it isn't all that easy to spot the difference. Maybe I shouldn't have cleared up the confusion. This thread only has a few pages, so far.

Luckers
04-05-2010, 10:52 AM
Because Maria pointed out that he was in error (it seems likely it was a continuity and/or timeline issue that he was not made fully aware of until after the tour). No one is being judgmental but you.

She didn't. She pointed out that his original intention wouldn't work out, but that does not make it an error, it makes it a change in plan.

I just think your repeated insistance of error is wrong. We have a lot to be thankful for from Brandon, and that he is willing to change what he's put down (at embarressment to himself) in order to sustain the notes by RJ is a good thing.

Brandon's working on writing a book not his own. That means a distinction is formed--missteps might normally be errors, but in this case it allows for him to be doing the best he can, and coming accross contradictory information, and then bringing the series back in line with that information.

I don't think that's erroneous. A redirection, yes. But your comments of error imply a judgement that I think is distasteful given what he's trying to achieve for us. You may think that semantics, but I think we owe him better.

GonzoTheGreat
04-05-2010, 11:22 AM
Putting Sulin where she was was not an error, I agree. Deciding to abandon that idea and use another scenario, because that would better fit RJ's overall vision, was not an error either.
But leaving Sulin in the place where she would have ended up in the first scheme when she shouldn't have been there according to the actual plot was an error.

It is not his judgment which is at stake here. I don't know how well (or badly) the initial idea would have been, and since he has discarded that it is irrelevant too. I do think that you've shown that my assessment was correct, though:
But your comments of error imply a judgement that I think is distasteful given what he's trying to achieve for us.What we think went wrong here is not BS's judgment, but his memory.
He changed his mind on whether or not to use a particular approach, and that's what he has to do while working on the project. He forgot to properly clean up all remnants of his earlier approach, and that's what created this error. Not faulty judgment, just faulty memory, combined with no one (apart from a couple of thousand rabid fans, after publication) noticing it.

Terez
04-05-2010, 07:13 PM
I think you're just being a drama queen, Luckers. I am very supportive of Brandon, but I didn't gloss over RJ's mistakes (they are quite fully footnoted in the database), and I'm not about to gloss over his either. I really doubt he would expect me to.

Luckers
04-08-2010, 12:23 PM
This isn't about you glossing over his mistakes. No, my problem here is that your misrepresenting the reality. By simplifying the entry to "Brandon made an error!" you are limiting the understanding of those fans who look to your database as a resource.

Your paraphrasement loses a considerable amount of what led to this problem, and misrepresents the problems Brandon faced that led to this. And I think that's wrong. Wrong to Brandon, which I originally focussed on--and still maintain, despite your comments--but also wrong for the fans.

Terez
04-08-2010, 03:15 PM
This isn't about you glossing over his mistakes. No, my problem here is that your misrepresenting the reality. By simplifying the entry to "Brandon made an error!" you are limiting the understanding of those fans who look to your database as a resource.
No, you are being a drama queen. The whole quote is in the database - I didn't paraphrase it at all! - and like I said, that makes everything clear enough. It was an error, no matter how you try to weasel around it.

Luckers
04-09-2010, 10:40 AM
The whole quote is not in the database, in point of fact. You removed Kathana's comments expressing the ideals against it being an error, as opposed to a change of mind. Curious, given you are very free with adding your own judgements. Which leads me very neatly to the fact that you did paraphrase. Here.

[Actually, this turned out to be an error.]


[It was an error.]

Sulin appearing with Rand's group was NOT an error [actually, it was]

If you're taking upon yourself the role of informing the fans what Brandon or RJ has said, it is your responsibility to make clear the exact subtleties of their positions--whatever your personal position may be. Feel free to scream to the skies that you think its an error, but don't insert that into your database. Or, hey, if you want to do that, fine... but at least put a declaimer stating your personal bias on the comment.

Neilbert
04-09-2010, 11:30 AM
But it was an error. How is that not clear to you?

GonzoTheGreat
04-09-2010, 11:54 AM
Luckers, could you tell me what the sequence of events was, precisely?
To make clear why I ask, I'll give two examples.

First, the one that I had assumed:
-BS had gotten some idea for using Sulin with Rand's group.
-BS wrote her into some scenes, to prepare that scenario.
-BS changed his mind.
-BS wrote the rest of the book, without Sulin in Rand's party.
-The book was published.
-Fans discovered Sulin in an unexpected place.
-BS decided to have her removed from new editions.

Now, the one that you seem to be defending.
-BS had gotten some idea for using Sulin with Rand's group.
-BS wrote her into some scenes, to prepare that scenario.
-The book was published.
-Fans discovered Sulin in an unexpected place.
-BS changed his mind.
-BS decided to have her removed from new editions.

In the first scenario, leaving her in was an error made during the removal process. In the second scenario, it was an error in thinking through the plot of this book. Either way, something went wrong.

Can you please give me some sort of scenario in which mentioning Sulin in Rand's company was not an error?

Luckers
04-09-2010, 12:07 PM
You mistake the issue here--I'm not suggesting Brandon did not make a mistake--I said flat out that Terez can feel free to scream to the skies about it being an error--thats not the problem.

The problem is that there is more involved than Brandon just making an error (the shawl/stole thing, for instance). Brandon had a plan for Sulin, and later changed his mind due to subtle issues pointed out by Maria.

Simply stating it as an error is a problem for someone claiming to be an authority on BS/RJ quotes. It does not represent the subtleties of the issues in play which a) misinforms the fans using her resource, and b) misrepresents the author for whom she is claiming to record.

Both of which I find problematic.

GonzoTheGreat
04-09-2010, 12:21 PM
All right, I'm a non-native speaker of english. Could you explain to me why it being a mistake but not being in any way at all an error makes sense?
As far as I knew until now, the words are synonyms.

halo6819
04-09-2010, 02:14 PM
er·ror   [er-er] Show IPA
–noun
1.
a deviation from accuracy or correctness; a mistake, as in action or speech: His speech contained several factual errors.
2.
belief in something untrue; the holding of mistaken opinions.

mis·take   [mi-steyk] Show IPA noun, verb,-took, -tak·en, -tak·ing.
–noun
1.
an error in action, calculation, opinion, or judgment caused by poor reasoning, carelessness, insufficient knowledge, etc.


however some words have more meaning to some people then just the dictionary definition. I.E. perhaps error implies fault while mistake does not assign blame.

but that is a matter of personal interpretation....

Terez
04-09-2010, 03:37 PM
Luckers, there is a difference between paraphrasing and removing something. Also, IIRC the only bit I removed was Kathana's personal opinion on the subject which apparently had nothing to do with what Brandon actually said.

Sodas
04-09-2010, 05:20 PM
You mistake the issue here--I'm not suggesting Brandon did not make a mistake--I said flat out that Terez can feel free to scream to the skies about it being an error--thats not the problem.

The problem is that there is more involved than Brandon just making an error (the shawl/stole thing, for instance). Brandon had a plan for Sulin, and later changed his mind due to subtle issues pointed out by Maria.

Simply stating it as an error is a problem for someone claiming to be an authority on BS/RJ quotes. It does not represent the subtleties of the issues in play which a) misinforms the fans using her resource, and b) misrepresents the author for whom she is claiming to record.

Both of which I find problematic.

I agree, that calling it an error is giving a false impression of the authors intent. +1

Terez
04-09-2010, 07:23 PM
Oh, and just so you know...Sodas is my self-proclaimed arch-enemy, so I'm quite sure he's only agreeing with you because you disagree with me. He typically goes out of his way (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3235) to find things to paint Brandon in a negative light. I do not.

Sodas
04-09-2010, 08:01 PM
The only thing Terez is good at is slandering others. When did I ever proclaim Terez my arch-enemy? Yeah right. I'd never consider Terez my "arch-enemy," because I'd require someone actually intelligent and challenging. Obviously, Terez considers me her "arch-enemy", always obsessing about my purpose. Afterall, Terez did have to have me quoted everywhere in her signature to harass me, and when her posts got edited on Theoryland, she went to talk more crap in the Dragonmount thread on Asmodean. In fact, she is probably rolling at joy that I'm even replying to her in a way, like a kid that pulls crap to gain attention. As it stands, I'd suggest that you ignore her and keep your own collection of quotes/books on hand, so you don't have to listen to her misrepresent quotes, slander people, and eventually slander you, just because you disagree with her. So no, I'm not out to paint Brandon in a poor light. I disagree with some of his decisions and don't particularly like his writing style. But an error is not the same thing as an edit or change of mind.

Terez
04-09-2010, 08:43 PM
LOL.

That is all.

Luckers
04-10-2010, 10:42 AM
Look Terez, i don't much care--I just think you have claimed upon yourself a responsibility to which you are not living up to, but you don't much seem to mind. It's clear that you like being the one to declaim what's what, so good for you, that's fine. Just understand that I'll be directing people to take your addendums with a grain of salt. Don't feel bad, it's no less than I did with Thus Spake the Creator.

Neilbert
04-10-2010, 10:54 AM
All right, I'm a non-native speaker of english. Could you explain to me why it being a mistake but not being in any way at all an error makes sense?
As far as I knew until now, the words are synonyms.

Clearly the language evolved while I wasn't looking.

Terez
04-10-2010, 03:59 PM
Look Terez, i don't much care--I just think you have claimed upon yourself a responsibility to which you are not living up to, but you don't much seem to mind. It's clear that you like being the one to declaim what's what, so good for you, that's fine. Just understand that I'll be directing people to take your addendums with a grain of salt. Don't feel bad, it's no less than I did with Thus Spake the Creator.
So now it's just an excuse to denigrate the interview database. That's hardly surprising, but childish, really (just like it was childish of you to refuse to add it to your list of resources on Dragonmount in the first place....for well over a year, actually). I mean, your motives here are really clear, Luckers. All the outside observers can see that you are twisting Brandon's words around....to what purpose? To be an ass-kissing fanboy? To try to make me look bad? And I'm quite sure that most of the users of the database can use their own brains to figure out what is going on. The whole point of linking to the original source is so that they don't have to take my word for it. ;)

Luckers
04-12-2010, 09:43 AM
Just a point, but I did not refuse to add the database to the list of resources on the general forum--I, a) did not know of the database when that list was set up, b) did not manage that thread. It was Maj's baby, and c) recieved no requests to put it up there.

I'll put it up now, since you've asked so nicely.

Terez
04-12-2010, 09:59 AM
Pssh, I asked nicely in the thread in question. Twice. ;)

FelixPax
04-14-2010, 12:44 AM
Luckers, there is a difference between paraphrasing and removing something. Also, IIRC the only bit I removed was Kathana's personal opinion on the subject which apparently had nothing to do with what Brandon actually said.

Quite interesting, that you would add Katherina's paraphrasing of Brandon words. Meanwhile totally ignore my direct quote of Brandon's words "Sulin is an Error", from the Woodland Hills event.

Likewise, the database ignores other direct quotes Brandon gave in the B&N Woodland Hills event. For example, about the Ogier language:

Question: "Do Ogiers have accents, dialects among the steddings?"

Answer: "Its a three part response, its partially RAFO, partially MAFO, and partially I can't say because if I did it would break my N.D.A. with Tor Inc."

Terez
04-14-2010, 01:14 AM
Felix, this all stems back to your misrepresentation of the pre-TGS signing, which we have discussed before. I will try to clear up the question about Sulin at JordanCon. I have a tendency to trust you on this one, despite your history, but I'd rather be sure. The question about Ogier doesn't really reveal anything, so I'm not too concerned about omitting it.

Luckers
04-15-2010, 09:25 AM
Indeed Dida, I did not ignore your quote, I discussed it in quite a lot of detail--I even conferred with Bob Kluttz who agreed with you, and sent requests to Brandon to substantiate it--but based on the fact that it was in opposition of three seperate quotes on the issue, combined with the way you presented it--mixed in with all your own preconceptions--I reguarded as an unreliable citation. Without seperate substantiation I held it as suspect. But I did not ignore it.

In point of fact this is not a different situation at all. I'm very stringent on the issue of citations of what the author has said. This attitude lead to my unwillingness to trust your citation just as it did to my dissaproval of Terez's.

halo6819
04-15-2010, 10:33 AM
thats why i take video :)

Tamyrlin
04-15-2010, 10:38 AM
Hilter (otherwise known as Hitler) and the Nazis.

Doesn't that end the discussion?

Terez
04-15-2010, 10:42 AM
No, it just means we get to point and laugh at you for Godwin'ing the thread. :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-15-2010, 11:18 AM
Or perhaps he's Gwodinning it. I'm not entirely sure whether or not he intended to make a spelling mistake.

Terez
04-15-2010, 11:32 AM
Does calling someone a Grammar Nazi count as Godwin'ing?

Luckers
04-16-2010, 02:39 AM
Go on facebook Tam.

Casabamelon
04-16-2010, 01:03 PM
Or perhaps he's Gwodinning it. I'm not entirely sure whether or not he intended to make a spelling mistake.

I suspect it was rather deliberate (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sVxM5IBLeU4).
________
Medical marijuana card (http://mmjp.org)

GonzoTheGreat
04-17-2010, 10:20 AM
I'd forgotten about that one, I have to admit.

Terez
08-02-2010, 12:24 AM
Ahh, this is cleared up at last:

Rob Trotter on Twitter (http://twitter.com/robtrotter/status/20065827901)
Any chance you could clear up Sulin in The Gathering Storm? Was her appearance a typo or deliberate (Varied answers exist on the web?)
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/20110994126)
Sure, you guys deserve an answer on this one.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/20111025204)
Sulin began life as a simple typo. When I saw it, I shrugged, and had a good reason. Maria thought that reason would not work.
Brandon (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/20111053284)
So we decided to retcon it out. Mistake was mine all along. Really nothing special to report there, I'm afraid.

Or at least, it should be. LOL. Wouldn't be surprised if some still insisted on arguing that it was not an error.

GonzoTheGreat
08-02-2010, 04:56 AM
Sulin first appeared in book 5. So this was probably the "small detail from somewhere in book four to six" which we've been arguing so much about.