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WinespringBrother
04-12-2010, 09:12 AM
Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Egwene almost dropped the ring. A ter'angreal? I am to keep a ter'angreal? Verin seemed not to notice her shock. "According to her, it eases the passage to Tel'aran'rhiod. She claimed it would work for those without Talent as well as for Aes Sedai, so long as you are touching it when you sleep. There are dangers, of course. Tel'aran'rhiod is not like other dreams. What happens there is real; you are actually there instead of just glimpsing it." She pushed back the sleeve of her dress, revealing a faded scar the length of her forearm. "I tried it myself, once, some years ago. Anaiya's Healing did not work as well as it should have. Remember that." The Aes Sedai let her sleeve cover the scar again.

Is the bolded part a shady Aes Sedai way of saying that Anaiya wanted to teach Verin a lesson? It is suspicious especially given what we know now about Verin. It seems that only Anaiya and Verin had any knowledge of TAR, with Verin having Corianin's notes and Anaiya being in charge of testing potential dreamers, and being so hesitant to acknowledge Egwene's Talent throughout the whole series when it should have been obvious by Crossroads.

So, was Anaiya a darkfriend? She wasn't mentioned being in Verin's list by Egwene (though she was dead by that point, I don't recall if Egwene mentioned anyone who was already known dead by her at the time, which is the biggest point in her favor, but if she was working with Verini in some capacity, that could explain the omission. She was also a close acquaintance with 2 other sisters who were killed by the Shadow, and perhaps was killed to set an example for Sheriam.

Thoughts?

Terez
04-12-2010, 09:23 AM
Well, I think that the reasons why Anaiya was killed are pretty obvious; Aran'gar didn't want her cover blown. If Anaiya was dangerous, then why kill her last?

As an aside, the first time I did a re-read, I was under the impression that Anaiya was Black. I think it took me a couple of re-reads to be sure I was mistaken.

That being said, I don't suppose there is any real proof against it, other than the fact that she wasn't on Verin's list, and you'd think Verin would know. And Verin had no way of knowing she'd been killed, unless it was somehow reported to her through the Black (which seems unlikely).

reTaardad
04-12-2010, 09:37 AM
Even if Anaiya was Black, it would have no plot relevance, so I'm led to believe that she wasn't Black.

GonzoTheGreat
04-12-2010, 11:06 AM
As far as I know, it is not possible to make Healing work partially. Either it works, it does not work, or it works and kills the patient.
On at least one occasion, Moiraine tells Rand that if it were possible, she would leave some remnants, to give him a bit of a reminder.

Terez
04-12-2010, 11:31 AM
Well, the whole purpose of Verin telling Egwene that was to demonstrate that injuries obtained in Tel'aran'rhiod can't be properly Healed. It doesn't seem to hold up in other cases, though, so perhaps Verin was taking advantage of her ability to lie in order to encourage Egwene to be extra cautious.

GonzoTheGreat
04-12-2010, 12:03 PM
Well, it does hold up in Rand's case. Whose wound may or may not have a TAR link, depending on how you interpret the Falme mess.

Terez
04-12-2010, 12:15 PM
Well, Nynaeve was able to Heal him of his injuries from Rahvin, and the Aes Sedai were all Healed of the walking nightmare mess, for example.

One Armed Gimp
04-12-2010, 12:20 PM
As far as I know, it is not possible to make Healing work partially. Either it works, it does not work, or it works and kills the patient.
On at least one occasion, Moiraine tells Rand that if it were possible, she would leave some remnants, to give him a bit of a reminder.

I think maybe you are thinking backwards:

Rand nodded again and the effort buckled his knees. Suddenly Lan was there, pulling Rand's arm over his shoulder to hold him up. Moiraine took his face in her hands. A chill rippled through him, not the blasting of cold full Healing, but a chill that pushed weariness out as it passed. Most of the weariness. A seed remained, as if he had worked a day hoeing taba. He moved away from the support he no longer needed. Lan watched him warily, to see if he could really stand alone, or perhaps because the Warder was not certain how dangerous he was, how sane.
"I left some apurpose," Moiraine told him.

So healing can be partial.

Davian93
04-12-2010, 12:24 PM
Perhaps it was partly true. Perhaps it depends on what happened in TAR. For all we know, she might have nearly lost her arm in TAR only to wake up with it not quite as bad. As there was a scar, its very possible she was injured.

Its also completely possible that she was lying through her teeth. Its not as if Egwene was ever gonna ask Anaiya about it and it was a good way to give an eager young girl some caution in a dangerous dream world.

Kimon
04-12-2010, 12:33 PM
Perhaps it was partly true. Perhaps it depends on what happened in TAR. For all we know, she might have nearly lost her arm in TAR only to wake up with it not quite as bad. As there was a scar, its very possible she was injured.

Its also completely possible that she was lying through her teeth. Its not as if Egwene was ever gonna ask Anaiya about it and it was a good way to give an eager young girl some caution in a dangerous dream world.


I suppose this might also be dependent, or at least partially dependent, on where the healing takes place. Nynaeve healed Rand's TAR wounds in TAR. She seemed to have healed those wounds fully, but I don't think we ever learn if the nightmare wounds that the sisters received were fully healed or not.

You'd think though that healing should be unnecessary for TAR-wounds. Since perception carries so much weight there, should one not, hypothetically, simply be capable of setting a vision of yourself as healed of these wounds and be healed. I'd imagine that TAR received wounds are purely psychosomatic, albeit, fully capable of maiming or killing you do to the mind's difficulty in separating gradations of reality. That might not have been applicable though for Rand and Rahvin- they were after all there "in the flesh"...

Ieyasu
04-12-2010, 01:09 PM
I think maybe you are thinking backwards:



So healing can be partial.

That was not a healing, she merely wiped his fatigue... the same way she did the horses in TEOTW...

Brita
04-12-2010, 01:43 PM
Its also completely possible that she was lying through her teeth. Its not as if Egwene was ever gonna ask Anaiya about it and it was a good way to give an eager young girl some caution in a dangerous dream world.

She doesn't even need to be lying (although clearly we now know she was capable)- she didn't say she got that scar in TAR, she implied it, but she didn't say it. Aes Sedai and their tricksy ways :)

Spasmodean
04-12-2010, 02:01 PM
Wasn't Aniya killed to cover Halima's cover story about being Cabriana Meccandes' travelling companion as she Anaiya and a 3rd who escapes memory, Kairen?) were known as "the three" due to their close friendship.

As an aside - Do we think Cyndane is using Cabriana's body?

Davian93
04-12-2010, 02:15 PM
Wasn't Aniya killed to cover Halima's cover story about being Cabriana Meccandes' travelling companion as she Anaiya and a 3rd who escapes memory, Kairen?) were known as "the three" due to their close friendship.

As an aside - Do we think Cyndane is using Cabriana's body?

Some do, some dont. The physical descriptions are similar (pale hair vs. silver hair, etc) but there is nothing definitive. The timing is also right.

She doesn't even need to be lying (although clearly we now know she was capable)- she didn't say she got that scar in TAR, she implied it, but she didn't say it. Aes Sedai and their tricksy ways

Good point...those tricksy Aes Sedai...

One Armed Gimp
04-12-2010, 03:19 PM
That was not a healing, she merely wiped his fatigue... the same way she did the horses in TEOTW...

I had always, possibly erroneously, assumed the wiping of fatigue to be a form of Healing. Is there any firm proof that it is not?

Belazamon
04-12-2010, 04:25 PM
"They don't look to me like they need any rest," Perrin said as he attempted to slip a feedbag over his mount's muzzle. The horse tossed its head before allowing him to put the straps in place. Rand was having difficulties with Cloud, too, taking three tries before he could get the canvas bag over the gray's nose.
"They do," Lan told them. He straightened from hobbling his stallion. "Oh, they can still run. They will run at their fastest, if we let them, right up to the second they drop dead from exhaustion they never even felt."
Wiping fatigue doesn't actually Heal anything, it just masks the effects of exhaustion.

Sodas
04-12-2010, 05:18 PM
Is the bolded part a shady Aes Sedai way of saying that Anaiya wanted to teach Verin a lesson?

I don't see it. I definately get a strong feeling that it was Verin's way of saying what happens in TAR has a real and potentially lasting effect - so tread lightly.

Interesting take though, WSB.

nameless
04-12-2010, 06:32 PM
Nynaeve's wounds from the Acceptatron also scarred more than they should have when they were Healed. I think Anaiya was on the up-and-up and alternate realities don't always react to the Power in the same way as the prime reality.

Ozymandias
04-13-2010, 01:13 AM
I thought the obvious comparison would be Rand's wounds, both of which prove that there ARE injuries which not only do not Heal completely, but leave a scar. Obviously those do not heal completely for very unique reasons, but we have no evidence that Verin didn't come about hers in similar ways. Consider that its eminently possible she was Dreaming and encountered Ishy or another Chosen (well, really only Ishy is likely) who hurt her. Or rather, Ishy found her. Just because Rand has been injured by two unique forces doesn't mean others don't exist in the world.

And I don't think its conclusive that Healing never leaves a mark. I know that if the Healer wishes it, it doesn't have to, but that doesn't mean there isn't a way of manipulating the Healing process to leave a scar. And given Verin's personality, I could very well see her requesting that the scar be left as a visual reminder.

And most likely, its a lie or a typo.

nameless
04-13-2010, 04:29 PM
When what's-her-name from Cadsuane's party Heals Dobraine her POV claims that it is possible to modulate the weave in a fashion that leaves the same scars as natural healing but that very few women have the aptitude to do so.

FelixPax
04-14-2010, 01:55 AM
Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 21 - A World of Dreams
Egwene almost dropped the ring. A ter'angreal? I am to keep a ter'angreal? Verin seemed not to notice her shock. "According to her, it eases the passage to Tel'aran'rhiod. She claimed it would work for those without Talent as well as for Aes Sedai, so long as you are touching it when you sleep. There are dangers, of course. Tel'aran'rhiod is not like other dreams. What happens there is real; you are actually there instead of just glimpsing it." She pushed back the sleeve of her dress, revealing a faded scar the length of her forearm. "I tried it myself, once, some years ago. Anaiya's Healing did not work as well as it should have. Remember that." The Aes Sedai let her sleeve cover the scar again.

Who is to say Verin was telling the full truth here to Egwene? Yes, Verin told the truth about dangers being real in the TAR, but did she lie about the origin of that wound on her forearm?

For all we know, Ishamael gave it to her in a Dream, during the vileness period? Remember how Ishamael killed the top Black Ajah leader back then? Hard not seeing Ishamael, pushing and torturing the B.A.'s including Verin. Why? To get the answers he wanted to learn of, and an agreement to avoid killing the Dragon Reborn.

Verin, I suspect only told Egwene enough about the TAR to help her out.

WinespringBrother
04-16-2010, 08:48 AM
There is another example of an incompletely cured injury, Thom's, but that was because he got healing well after the fact. That doesn't seem to be likely in Verin's case though.

Another possible strike against Anaiya is that she was the last Aes Sedai to talk to Mat before he left the White Tower, and IIRC the only one mentioned by name to see him departing for good, and taking note of his leavetaking. That night, he was hunted by darkfriends in the streets of Tar Valon, and even on his escaping vessel.

Terez
04-16-2010, 08:52 AM
Yes, but the Darkfriend who allowed him to leave was punished, while it appears Anaiya was not (and she had a much better chance of keeping him there than the non-channeling Darkfriend).

WinespringBrother
04-16-2010, 12:06 PM
Yes, but the Darkfriend who allowed him to leave was punished, while it appears Anaiya was not (and she had a much better chance of keeping him there than the non-channeling Darkfriend).

Just because she wasn't punished on-screen ala Sheriam doesn't mean she wasn't punished. Or perhaps she didn't have enough blame considering she may have had to send for orders via the slow poke heart message system first, and perhaps Alviarin or Ishamael assigned the task of killing Mat elsewhere. Remember, she was following Siuan's public orders in public, i.e. letting Mat out of the Tower, she couldn't just go off and not let Mat leave without drawing suspicion to herself, since laying low is the Black Ajah MO.

nameless
04-16-2010, 02:57 PM
Does anyone really suspect Anaiya? She was murdered to keep Delanna's and Aran'gar's cover a secret, after all. If she were Black they could have just ordered her to keep quiet.

Lefts
04-16-2010, 10:00 PM
Nynaeve's wounds from the Acceptatron also scarred more than they should have when they were Healed. I think Anaiya was on the up-and-up and alternate realities don't always react to the Power in the same way as the prime reality.

I was about to drop in here to say this exact thing. I believe someone did say the exact words "There shouldn't be any scarring."

And again, as the arches had a resonance with the very ring, something mentioned to only happen with ter'angreal that are similar in some manner, so I'd say that there's nothing particularly shady going on here.

I don't see how it is plot relevant though. As far as I can remember, all Anaiya did was suspect Egwene was a dreamer, and die.

WinespringBrother
04-19-2010, 10:07 AM
I was about to drop in here to say this exact thing. I believe someone did say the exact words "There shouldn't be any scarring."

And again, as the arches had a resonance with the very ring, something mentioned to only happen with ter'angreal that are similar in some manner, so I'd say that there's nothing particularly shady going on here.

I don't see how it is plot relevant though. As far as I can remember, all Anaiya did was suspect Egwene was a dreamer, and die.

LOL This is theoryland. We will discuss anything, regardless of plot relevance. Though in this case, it would probably be more of tying up loose ends relevance. But each re-read brings new light on old plots and story lines, and I thought the associations between Verin and anyone deserve to be re-examined.

FelixPax
04-23-2010, 07:54 AM
Does anyone really suspect Anaiya?

Not me! :D


But then I think Noal is darkfriend, and that Valan Luca is a re-born Hero. ;) :)


So who is left as an untouched unconfirmed Black Ajah in the series still, who has not been identified by Egwene's list from Verin?

Annoura Larisen for one, she is with Perrin's Group.

She been involved in fuzzy dealings at twice, once in Cairhien & once with Masema. So, Annoura is a suspected darkfriend.