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DrZoidberg
04-15-2010, 01:58 AM
On page 449 of KoD: “Stiffening himself against what he knew would come, watchful of any attempt by Lews Therin, Rand seized the male half of the True Source, and Saidin flooded into him.”

I think this line is more important then you first think. It implies that the True Source is a combination of Saidin and Saidar or where they come from.

In TGS Lews Therin tells Rand that they women Aes Sedais did not want to help him to seal the Dark Ones prison and because you make stronger weaves combining Saidin with Saidar. It did not seal the Dark Ones prison completely as Ishamael could still influence to world to a degree.

I always thought it was strange that the male half was tainted but not the female one. I guess it could be explained that he the Dark One wanted to revenge on Lews Therin, a man. But I think it’s not the complete explanation.

Despite this 12 books we have not gotten to know were much about the Dark One. Is he a man like Lord Ruler or an element with a consciousness like Ruin. Is he simply the True Source.

So my theory is that The Dark One is just a social construct, a name from which Saidin and Saidar comes from it. And the true power is when a man or a woman can channel both Saidin and Saidar together, which is very uncommon and only a few can do it perhaps under very large stress like Rand when he was about to kill Min.

Why was this True Source then something that became as hated as the dark one?
I think that was made because if the Dark One would break free it would be some kind of Armageddon that most people imagine it will be, but what will happen is that all humans will be able to access the True Power. And this will be almost as bad, like what do you think would happen in the world if everyone had his own nuke.
Or it will be that every man will have access to Saidin and every woman could channel Saidar. That would also be bad, if everyone would have a gun with them every time… It’s better to just have the police have guns on the street, because they are limited and are under heavy restrictions how to use it. Like the Aes Sedais are with the three oats. The most important one that they cannot harm another human with the force.

The Aes Sedai understands this and that’s why they have made up the story about the Dark One and the Dragon so that people will rally behind them to stop any attempt to free the true Source so that everyone can access Saidin and Saidar. This is made for two reasons both because they believe it’s good for the world, but also because they want to keep their power. If everyone could channel the Aes Sedais wouldn’t have much power.

Lews Therin on the other hand being one of the most powerful has seen all the destruction caused by channelling thinks the world will be a better place without any ability to channel what so ever and want to seal the Dark Ones prison for good using both Saidar and Saidin.

This then leads to the question, why did the Aes Sedai don’t want to help Lews Therin to seal the Dark One's prison?
I think it was because they did not want to lose the ability to channel having heard so much about sisters who had gotten stilled and lost their will to live. Also with the one power you live much longer than without it and to live longer is everyone’s dream.

This also explains the sickness the male channelers felt after the Dark One was imprisoned. We have been led to believe it was an act of the Dark One to get revenge. But I think it was just the natural thing to happen. Once Saidin had been cut of from the True Source in Shayol Ghul by the seals that are why it became tainted. It didn’t become like they had been cut of from the power, because the sealing were not complete.
It also explains why the forsaken like Ishamael were not tainted. It was because they were inside Shayol Ghul inside of the sealing. And Ishamael only influenced the world through the dreamworld hence being protected.

So once Lews Therin made clear that he wanted to seal the access for the True Power the forsaken abandoned him and became darkfriends. Not only because they had been jealous that he was the leader and not they. But mainly because of their common goal that he must not succeed so seal of the power for good. Then they would lose both their power and also their longer life.

I think it’s this what Rand figured out at the end of TGS, when he wandered among the Tuantan those who would rather be killed than pick up a sword and fight. That that is how the world should be and that was what they were singing about that everyone should understand this. That was also why he destroyed his most powerful Sa’angeral, that it was better to not have it and not use it and decided that he must seal the dark lords prison instead of taking the power for himself and become the king of the world.

He has made his choice but how many of the Aes Sedai and Ashamans would go with this decision and rather not fight to keep the ability to channel? I think that is what will trigger Tarmon Gaidon, that this truth will be made public and maybe half of the Aes Sedai and Ashamans will fight for that the True Source must not be sealed.

Verin for example. Maybe she joined the dark side of free will to get a chance to get ethernal life and inside the darkfriends circles she understood what it was about, that the Dark Lord was the True Source and if he would be sealed all channelling would cease to insist. That was when she decided that’s a good thing and although she still was a darkfriend wanted to the light side to win so that the Dragon would win and people would not be able to channel anymore.

Or take Cadsuane, maybe she knows this all along, and even if she isn’t a dark friend she knows that if Rand wins she cannot channel anymore and will die soon and don’t want that. So maybe she will only help him to defeat the forsaken and the trollocs. But when that is done she will cut her knife in his back before he can seal the prison.

So it will become a matter if you belive whether the world should still have the one power or not and not if you are a darkfriend or not.

I think that is how the story will end and Rand will manage to seal the prison and no one will be able to channel anymore.

Cor Shan
04-15-2010, 03:03 AM
Not to burst your bubble, (okay, I haven't done a reread in probably 4-5 years, so I'm hoping I'm right) but the True Source is divided into two parts, Saidin and Saidar, which we all know, its in the glossary.

The True Power is what Rand/Moridin/Ishmeal channels. The taint is something, (I think someone said it was a peice of the True Power) that the Dark One added to Saidin. He could do so because the Seal is made of Saidin. More to the point, we have LTT's viewpoint, insane as it is. He has never indicated any desire to cut off the worlds ability to channel, beyond his recommendation of killing (all? most? just Taim?) male channelers.

halo6819
04-15-2010, 03:20 AM
we know that channeling has to leave randland at some point, because channeling does not exist in our world (second age)

The two halves of the power come from the same place, because the two of them turn the wheel of time itself.

DO tainted Saidin because thats what touched him.

i think the TP will have to be used to seal up the DO this time, either that or when they use both saidin and saidar then they will both be tainted and then no one will channel... but i think its a bit soon for channeling to leave.

personal looney theory is canneling will leave in the seventh age, when manking uses the one power to literaly destroy the universe and there is a BIG BANG, and then the first age has arrived. first age being the creation of the cosmos and the evolution of man. we are living in the second age. discovery of channeling brings on the third age. the DO and the breaking brings the fourth and the re-sealing brings the fifth. the creator only knows what happens during the fifth sixth and seventh ages

Cor Shan
04-15-2010, 03:23 AM
we know that channeling has to leave randland at some point, because channeling does not exist in our world (second age)
I forgot to mention this
DO tainted Saidin because thats what touched him.

i think the TP will have to be used to seal up the DO this time, either that or when they use both saidin and saidar then they will both be tainted and then no one will channel... but i think its a bit soon for channeling to leave.

Yes. I also support the "Rand using the TP to seal the DO" hypothesis.

DrZoidberg
04-15-2010, 06:02 AM
Thanks for the replies.

I don't see anything really of what you have written that clearly, falsifies the theory. But of course it might has to be adjusted in some way or another as we know quite little about these subjects yet.

I think it fits quite well with three quotes made by the authors.
Jordan said that he had planned all the story in the beggining. And the first thing he would think about was how the magicsystems were connected, as that is a vital part of the story.

Jordan also said that the shadow is winning the war and that the battle isn't fought as Rand think it is. How can that be when the forsaken dies one after another and no protagonist has yet died (which use to be one of the critiques of the series that it's unbelievable because all the heroes are "immortal"). However if the theory above is correct it could explain the quote. That what is important for the shadow is to have as many people as possible channeling, so that they do not want to seal the power.

Brandon Sanderson said about that ending that he was really surprised and didn't see that coming at all. If he said something like that after have read all the twists in Mistborn, I think it must really have to do with the magicsystems and the dark one that surprised him something fundamental. And not just "oh, was he a darkfriend, I didn't see that coming".

I and many I have spoken to believes that book 8-11 are clearly weaker than the others in the serie. I'd like to think that it is because we do not really understand everything that has happened in them. For me at least many books has gotten better as new books comes and you understand thats why they did this and this was foreshadowing that. And perhaps once we know the ending and read books 8-11 we will say, this was really clever, these books are much better now.

Neilbert
04-15-2010, 08:30 AM
I've just skimmed the thread, so I only have a few quick thoughts.

The True Source is both Saidin and Saidar, what this means as far as the Creator is concerned is a bit of a mystery.

Saidar was not tainted because it was not used. It turns out the situation is more complicated than LTT was right and those stupid women screwed him over. If Saidar had been used in LTT's plan it would have been tainted too. If the statues had been used (and they weren't ever really even an option) who knows what would have happened. It could have been better, or much worse.

The current age book time is usually called the third. Making the AoL the second, and ours (presuming it's directly before the AoL) the first.

Weird Harold
04-15-2010, 11:09 AM
So my theory is that The Dark One is just a social construct, a name from which Saidin and Saidar comes from it. And the true power is when a man or a woman can channel both Saidin and Saidar together, which is very uncommon and only a few can do it perhaps under very large stress like Rand when he was about to kill Min.

You're confusing the "True Power" with the "True Source;" they are NOT the same thing.

The books are very clear that the Bore was drilled into the DO's prison in search of a new power source that wasn't limited by the gender division of the True Source into Saidar and Saidin.

One can easily conclude that the OP scientists at the peak of the Age Of Legends would know how to recognise undifrentiated One Power from the True Source as opposed to a completely new source of Power.

RJ was also fairly forthcoming about the nature of the DO in interviews and signing reports -- see Terez's signature link for a comprehensive collection of interview and Q&A references. He was very clear that the DO is an entity on a par with the Creator who is Outside of the Wheel of Time/Creation.

The DO is indeed the source of the True Power--with some evidence that he IS the True Power in some way -- but he is completely and totally distinct from the One Power/True Source that powers the Wheel of Time/Creation.

Terez
04-15-2010, 11:42 AM
I guess I should make a post so that my sig link is easily accessible, huh? :D I was going to make the same point about RJ having confirmed the difference between the True Power and the True Source. Sometimes it's an indirect confirmation, but there's plenty of evidence along those lines.

However....welcome to Theoryland! We have a couple of Swedes here; you'll fit right in I'm sure. :)

DrZoidberg
04-15-2010, 01:13 PM
I see. That is a valid point. That there is a clear difference between True Power and True Source.

I guess one way to modify the theory is altough they are different. True Power comes from the Dark One and True Source from the Creator (I guess). Harold describes it as the One Power/True Source that powers the Wheel of Time/Creation.

Fantasy authors like to have counterparts to everything to balance things out, so maybe you can say that the True Power is a counterpart to the True Source. And if that is so, there might be some kind of interaction between the two. Like aslong as the Dark Ones prison isn't completely sealed and a very small amount of True Power can enter the world that is enough for the True Source to access the world. But when all True Power is gone the True Source cannot enter either. Don't ask me why.

Excuse me if it sounds abit silly to discuss these methapsysical things about an imaginary world. As I know it's mainly character developement that makes fantasy books interresting. But I think it would be Jordan's style to have a neat theory how it worked together.
How it will be possible to get all together in only two books considering the pace of the books is to me actually the greatest mystery :)

Of course there is also the more intinutive way that the Creator that influence the world via choosing taverens and help them make decisions.
And the Dark Lord, that ressurects his allies and gives the ability to channel the True Power.
That leaves alot of unanswered questions too of course.

Thanks for the welcoming Terez. Nice to meet you :)

Neilbert
04-15-2010, 01:20 PM
]And if that is so, there might be some kind of interaction between the two. Like aslong as the Dark Ones prison isn't completely sealed and a very small amount of True Power can enter the world that is enough for the True Source to access the world.

You could be on to something. There are interactions between the True Power and the True Source, but these interactions are mostly labeled unpredictable. There's also inherent protections that people possess, and swearing to the dark one in thought or word is enough for a person to lose those natural protections. Shaidar Haran's ability to shield darkfriends (he has only been seen to use it on darkfriends anyways) could well be an example of one of these protections that is lost.

One Armed Gimp
04-15-2010, 02:32 PM
Excuse me if it sounds abit silly to discuss these methapsysical things about an imaginary world. As I know it's mainly character developement that makes fantasy books interresting.

What, metaphysical discussions of an imaginary world being silly? Don't worry, I think you are in the right place.

Regardless of your theory, Jordan definitely has something going on with the magic system in the series and I believe there is more to come from it.

Sodas
04-15-2010, 04:19 PM
On page 449 of KoD: “Stiffening himself against what he knew would come, watchful of any attempt by Lews Therin, Rand seized the male half of the True Source, and Saidin flooded into him.”

I think this line is more important then you first think. It implies that the True Source is a combination of Saidin and Saidar or where they come from.

In TGS Lews Therin tells Rand that they women Aes Sedais did not want to help him to seal the Dark Ones prison and because you make stronger weaves combining Saidin with Saidar. It did not seal the Dark Ones prison completely as Ishamael could still influence to world to a degree.

Well, the real problem was that the Seals failed, because the Dark One can effect even Cuendillar over time. What is really needed is to undo the bore, which means a resealing of the Pattern back to the state that will be rediscovered in the next turning of the Wheel.

I always thought it was strange that the male half was tainted but not the female one. I guess it could be explained that he the Dark One wanted to revenge on Lews Therin, a man. But I think it’s not the complete explanation.

No.... it was because LTT used Saidin to place the Seals upon the Bore, allowing the Dark One his "counter-stroke" by tainting Saidin itself. The Taint itself was a form of the Dark One's essense, given metaphysical form as a oily overcoating of Saidin. See Jordan's explanation for the Cleansing :

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.
RJ: You don't think it's obvious?
Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and [attraction] of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same. That will both attract one another and negate one another.
Do you understand better now?
Emma: Yes, thank you.
RJ: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...

Despite this 12 books we have not gotten to know were much about the Dark One. Is he a man like Lord Ruler or an element with a consciousness like Ruin. Is he simply the True Source.

He might be both a man (Shaidar Haran) and an element or more. You are right, we don't really know. But he's not the True Source.

So my theory is that The Dark One is just a social construct, a name from which Saidin and Saidar comes from it.

Then you are wrong. Sorry.

And the true power is when a man or a woman can channel both Saidin and Saidar together, which is very uncommon and only a few can do it perhaps under very large stress like Rand when he was about to kill Min.

Nope.

Why was this True Source then something that became as hated as the dark one?

It's not. Saidin users are the only one's really hated as if they are the Dark One. This really comes from some in the Red Ajah. The reasoning behind it is if any man who can channel goes insane and becomes a danger to the common people, then only men willing to hurt others would attempt to Channel Saidin. And therefore, they must be Darkfriends.

I think that was made because if the Dark One would break free it would be some kind of Armageddon that most people imagine it will be, but what will happen is that all humans will be able to access the True Power. And this will be almost as bad, like what do you think would happen in the world if everyone had his own nuke.
Or it will be that every man will have access to Saidin and every woman could channel Saidar. That would also be bad, if everyone would have a gun with them every time… It’s better to just have the police have guns on the street, because they are limited and are under heavy restrictions how to use it. Like the Aes Sedais are with the three oats. The most important one that they cannot harm another human with the force.

No. If the Dark One breaks free he's not going to give everyone the ability to channel. He's going to destroy the Pattern. Everything else is a lie.

The Aes Sedai understands this and that’s why they have made up the story about the Dark One and the Dragon so that people will rally behind them to stop any attempt to free the true Source so that everyone can access Saidin and Saidar. This is made for two reasons both because they believe it’s good for the world, but also because they want to keep their power. If everyone could channel the Aes Sedais wouldn’t have much power.

No. The Aes Sedai want to stop the Dark One from being freed because he'd destroy the Pattern, end time. They certaintly didn't make up "the story about the Dark One and the Dragon," considering Lews Therin the Dragon was the head of the Aes Sedai in the Age of Legends. The Tamrylin. His story is the story of the Pattern trying to protect itself.

Lews Therin on the other hand being one of the most powerful has seen all the destruction caused by channelling thinks the world will be a better place without any ability to channel what so ever and want to seal the Dark Ones prison for good using both Saidar and Saidin.

I doubt it highly as Rand/LTT's thoughts are more about questioning what needs to touch the Dark One so that he can't retaint Saidin or Saidar.

This then leads to the question, why did the Aes Sedai don’t want to help Lews Therin to seal the Dark One's prison?

First off, he was Aes Sedai.

Second off, the female Aes Sedai, thought his plan was too risky. Which, it was, women are always right. The female Aes Sedai also had their own plans, wanting to use the CKs, but the keys were lost.

I think it was because they did not want to lose the ability to channel having heard so much about sisters who had gotten stilled and lost their will to live. Also with the one power you live much longer than without it and to live longer is everyone’s dream.

Just, no. There is more wrong with your theory, but I think I've explained enough for you to get the point.

Terez
04-15-2010, 04:29 PM
Hi Sodas

Jokeslayer
04-15-2010, 05:27 PM
Hey Zoid, don't mind Sodas; he's our local ignoramus.

Most of what Sodas wrote is right, though. Or at least it looks it to me.

Zoidberg, if the Dark One isn't real, how do we explain his voice in the prologue and epilogue to Lord of Chaos? (I guess actually this is unnecessary given interview quotes that confirm the DO is real)


Excuse me if it sounds abit silly to discuss these methapsysical things about an imaginary world.


Don't worry, this is pretty much what we do.

Welcome to TL!

Terez
04-15-2010, 05:31 PM
Most of what Sodas wrote is right, though. Or at least it looks it to me.
I didn't bother reading most of it. Just read enough to see that he was rude.

Jokeslayer
04-15-2010, 05:36 PM
I didn't bother reading most of it. Just read enough to see that he was rude.

But calling him an ignoramus doesn't really express that. Fight fire when in Rome or something, I guess.

Terez
04-15-2010, 05:39 PM
Hi Sodas

Jokeslayer
04-15-2010, 05:43 PM
Hi Sodas

Do you really expect me to believe that you think Sodas is right twice a day?

Jokeslayer
04-15-2010, 05:44 PM
Also maybe we should derail this thread a little less hard.

nameless
04-15-2010, 09:22 PM
The story takes place in the 3rd Age. The Age of Legends was the 2nd Age. The Moon Landing and the Cold War take place in the age before that according to Thom, which makes our present-day society the 1st Age. Channeling will no longer exist by the time the 1st Age comes again, but we know it will continue at least through the 4th Age because of Nicola's Fortelling that "the Guardians will balance the Servants."

Weird Harold
04-15-2010, 11:14 PM
Channeling will no longer exist by the time the 1st Age comes again, but we know it will continue at least through the 4th Age because of Nicola's Fortelling that "the Guardians will balance the Servants."

:confused:

We do?

What about Nicola's foretelling says that the Asha'man and Aes Sedai of the Fourth Age will be able to Channel?

OR

That their ability to Channel will lastt he entire Age?

nameless
04-16-2010, 02:02 PM
Asha'man are trained in martial arts as well as the One Power. If Aes Sedai lost the ability to channel they would no longer be an effective balance because their own training focuses almost exclusively on the Power.

Channeling might or might not last the entire 4th Age but it will continue beyond Tarmon Gaidon.

Weird Harold
04-16-2010, 04:11 PM
Asha'man are trained in martial arts as well as the One Power. If Aes Sedai lost the ability to channel they would no longer be an effective balance because their own training focuses almost exclusively on the Power.

Aes Sedai "power" rests more on the WT's political influence than it does on the ability to channel. The Grey Ajah in particular are trained diplomats and that training doesn't rely onthe aibility to channel; The Blues are social engineers (meddlers) but they seldom need to Channel to implement their social engineering (meddling.)

Even if Channeling were to disappear instantaneously, the Aes Sedai would survive a century or two as a "balance" to the asha'man just on their reputation.

If Channeling does disappear the asha'man are no more than another stateless army like the Whitecloaks, without even the centuries of reputation the WT can fall back on.

Channeling might or might not last the entire 4th Age but it will continue beyond Tarmon Gaidon.

But Nicola's Foretelling provides no evidence to prove whether Channeling will or will not survive T'G. I happen to agree that Channeling won't shut off like a tripped circuit breaker, but, to the best of my knowledge, there is no definitive proof for or against the idea.

NaeffOfDreams
04-18-2010, 08:00 PM
As far as sheer numbers go, we're getting closer to the Guardians matching the Servants already, if Taim is to be believed, which could go either way.

Weird Harold
04-19-2010, 03:38 AM
As far as sheer numbers go, we're getting closer to the Guardians matching the Servants already, if Taim is to be believed, which could go either way.
One of Logain's bonded Aes Sedai, Toviene, gave an estimate of Asha'mn numbers that essentially confirms Logain's report to Rand on total numbers in the BT -- numbers-wise, the guardians and servants do match fairly closely, down to the numbers of darkfriends (aka Taim's faction, which includes almost all those of asha'man rank.)

The only place that Taim has obviously been fudging the numbers is in the numbers succumbing to Taint Madness and deaths in training accidents -- many of those have to be covering up failed recruitments to his DF Faction.