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Tercel
04-19-2010, 05:34 PM
1) Sorilea is a darkfriend.
She asked to see where Cadsuane was keeping the necklace, just prior to it being stolen, and no one else knew where it was. It also kind of feels 'right' for Sorilea to be a darkfriend, it's getting time for darkfriends among the Aiel to come into play more and Sorilea's a perfect choice plot-wise.

2) The Black Ajah like to wear their Ajah colours.
I felt like BS was beating us over the head with this in TGS, but it's something we really should have thought of earlier. Aes Sedai always like to wear their Ajah colour and so the Blacks like to wear both their public Ajah colour either with black embroidery or black bands on their dress or wear a very dark version of their public Ajah's colour.

3) Rand will survive the last battle by living on in Moridin's body, but Rand's current body will die.
This will fulfill the 'Finn's "to live you must die". Although it conflicts with my theory that Nynaeve will successfully Heal death after 3 days. I'm unsure how to resolve that conflict.

4) "Order and belief give strength" refers to the way to achieve victory over the DO by strengthening the Pattern and thus sealing him away by undoing the damage done to the Pattern by the Bore.

Nynaeve's thought on the subject is a not-so-subtle clue from Brandon about what the 'order and belief' of Fel's message are supposed to be about:
Nynaeve, pg 494 TGS:
"Rand certainly was effective at subduing countries, but his kingdoms needed more than just handouts of grain. They needed stability, and they needed something - someone - they could believe in. Rand was getting increasingly bad at offering either."

Similar, Tuon and Egwene both note that their gaining clear structured leadership is positive:
Tuon, pg 560 TGS:
The common people walked more confidently, more proudly. They had an empress again. With all that was wrong in the world, this one thing was right again.
Egwene, pg 720 TGS:
"Egwene... sat down on the chair [of the Amyrlin Seat]... The world bowed beneath the stress of the Dark One's touch, but it felt a little more right - a little more secure - the moment she took her place."

Kimon
04-19-2010, 07:07 PM
2) The Black Ajah like to wear their Ajah colours.
I felt like BS was beating us over the head with this in TGS, but it's something we really should have thought of earlier. Aes Sedai always like to wear their Ajah colour and so the Blacks like to wear both their public Ajah colour either with black embroidery or black bands on their dress or wear a very dark version of their public Ajah's colour.



Can you give some examples of this one, as I can't recall instances of this by BS off the top of my head, which makes me hesitant to accept this one- take for example the yellows and the whites, the other ajahs could come up with a very dark version of their own color and pass that off, but white and yellow couldn't. Along those same lines, I can think of one obvious example of a sister whose Ajah-colored dress is blatantly described as so dark as to be essentially black, but that was Toveine, and she was annoyed that she had unconsciously chosen something that was nearly asha'man-colored, but wore it anyway out of defiance. And Toveine is definetly not black- well definetly unless you're a real conspiracy theorist and think that as the leader of the mission against the Black Tower she might somehow not fall under the aegis of Alviarin's statement vis-a-vis that failed sortie. The only definitive statement we have received on black indicators is some hand message that may or may not involve rubbing of the thumbs, in which case that might tell us something about Annoura. But back to my initial query, to what sisters, be they black or merely suspected, are you referring?

Tercel
04-19-2010, 10:34 PM
Can you give some examples of this one, as I can't recall instances of this by BS off the top of my head, which makes me hesitant to accept this oneOkay, now you mention this and I think harder on it, I think it was in my post-TGS re-read right through all the books that I picked it up. In TGS we get Verin's list of Black Ajah plus what we know from other books of who's Black Ajah. Using that knowledge I was able to spot a correlation between dresses worn and BA members. Right from the beginning of the series through to TGS the correlation is there.

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anywhere on the Web that contains all the dress-descriptions in the series, so it's not easy to find examples.

take for example the yellows and the whites, the other ajahs could come up with a very dark version of their own color and pass that off, but white and yellow couldn't.I recall a Yellow/Black Ajah member being described as wearing very dark yellow. The Whites wear black embroidery or black stripes on their dresses when they are Black.

Along those same lines, I can think of one obvious example of a sister whose Ajah-colored dress is blatantly described as so dark as to be essentially black, but that was Toveine, and she was annoyed that she had unconsciously chosen something that was nearly asha'man-colored, but wore it anyway out of defiance. And Toveine is definetly not blackOf course, it's just a correlation, not certain proof. Aes Sedai don't always wear their ajah colours all the time and sometimes they wear colours of other ajahs.

But back to my initial query, to what sisters, be they black or merely suspected, are you referring?I agree it would be nice if I could cite a lot of examples, but short of reading the entire series through again I'm not sure how to locate those examples since no WoT websites seem to have thought Aes Sedai clothing worth noting in their character descriptions.

GonzoTheGreat
04-20-2010, 03:05 AM
Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be anywhere on the Web that contains all the dress-descriptions in the series, so it's not easy to find examples.Good point. What we really need here is a Fashion Forum. Perhaps, if we had had that a decade ago, we would already have cracked the Asmodean mystery too.

Linda
04-20-2010, 05:10 AM
There is a tendency for Black sisters to wear very dark versions of their Ajah Colours, but it's far from common. Duhara is one, wearing a "red that is almost black" regularly.

Elza wore very dark green in COT and Delana dark grey in KOD.

But Sheriam doesn't wear dark colours. Moreover, the Black Whites, for instance, never look like zebras.

WinespringBrother
04-20-2010, 09:58 AM
Did a search on black/dark embroidery. No hits for black embroidery on black ajah sisters. Results as follows:

Siuan: black/gold embroidery in tel'aran'rhiod briefly - she isn't black, though
Rand: black dragons - in TGS
Lews Therin: aes sedai symbol - EOTW prologue
Egeanin and Yulan: black eagle-interesting but not important
Mesaana: black scrollwork - no mention of her alter ego wearing black embroidery though

Neilbert
04-20-2010, 03:02 PM
It would be nice if someone would actually post evidence for this idea that Black Ajah sisters tend to wear darker embroidery/clothing.

This is useless:
There is a tendency for Black sisters to wear very dark versions of their Ajah Colours, but it's far from common.

This is helpful:
Did a search on black/dark embroidery. No hits for black embroidery on black ajah sisters. Results as follows:

Siuan: black/gold embroidery in tel'aran'rhiod briefly - she isn't black, though
Rand: black dragons - in TGS
Lews Therin: aes sedai symbol - EOTW prologue
Egeanin and Yulan: black eagle-interesting but not important
Mesaana: black scrollwork - no mention of her alter ego wearing black embroidery though

The best way to do it probably involves reading a lot of dress descriptions after Ctrl+Fing Aes Sedai names. I do not envy the person who does this.

Crispin's Crispian
04-20-2010, 04:33 PM
It would be nice if someone would actually post evidence for this idea that Black Ajah sisters tend to wear darker embroidery/clothing.

The best way to do it probably involves reading a lot of dress descriptions after Ctrl+Fing Aes Sedai names. I do not envy the person who does this.

Well, you could also argue the point without evidence. I mean, look at the White Ajah. Obviously you can't wear a darker shade of white without looking like one of the Grays. So what do they do? They wrap themselves up in cold logic as a coping mechanism for the cognitive dissonance of being wrapped in an anathemic color.

Case closed, I'd say.

Tercel
04-20-2010, 11:17 PM
Well, you could also argue the point without evidence. I mean, look at the White Ajah. Obviously you can't wear a darker shade of white without looking like one of the Grays. So what do they do? They wrap themselves up in cold logic as a coping mechanism for the cognitive dissonance of being wrapped in an anathemic color.Well novices and accepted wear white dresses, so perhaps the Whites are those Aes Sedai who subconsciously really still see themselves as novices/accepted.

greatwolf
04-25-2010, 04:57 PM
does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.

Spasmodean
04-25-2010, 04:59 PM
does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.

I don't think they were you know. His dice rattling SHOULD have taken place in the run up to Verin's visit and stopped when he made his decision to accept her help if we have been going by the way they work in previous books.

Perhaps thats a question to be asked of BS next time someone goes to a signing!

greatwolf
04-25-2010, 05:21 PM
I don't think they were you know. His dice rattling SHOULD have taken place in the run up to Verin's visit and stopped when he made his decision to accept her help if we have been going by the way they work in previous books.

Perhaps thats a question to be asked of BS next time someone goes to a signing!


BS might have forgotten somehow. Maybe the bit about the dice got deleted by error but it might also mean Mat doesn't have the dice any more, now he's agreed to go (back) to the finn and he's gotten married to Tuon.

IIRC, the agreement was about marrying the DoNM and getting out or so. But all that is based on Mat not having the dice rattling away in his head.

At least it should have been rattling when he entered that zombie town but I'm just not sure of it.

Tercel
04-25-2010, 10:28 PM
does any one remember if Mat's dice (the ones in his head) were mentioned in tGS? I don't have the book handy right now.

Apologies for interrupting, do go on.Yes, they rattled and stopped for his decision to stay in the zombie town.

Terez
04-25-2010, 10:40 PM
3) Rand will survive the last battle by living on in Moridin's body, but Rand's current body will die.
This will fulfill the 'Finn's "to live you must die". Although it conflicts with my theory that Nynaeve will successfully Heal death after 3 days. I'm unsure how to resolve that conflict.
Two-step program.

1. Admit the body swap theory is lame.

2. Realize that the superior theory is that Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies (she saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte...with the Power), and that Birgitte's comment that 'we are not dead as others are dead' serves as fulfillment of the 'dead yet lives'.

Conflict solved.

As for the 'belief and order thing' - it's been clear for a long time that the Seanchan bring the necessary order, and that Rand needs more than anything for his followers to actually believe in him rather than following him because he can kill them with his brain.

Belazamon
04-25-2010, 11:17 PM
Admit the body swap theory is lame.
Not nearly as lame as Sammael's death. :D

Terez
04-25-2010, 11:23 PM
As if that has anything to do with anything.

Belazamon
04-26-2010, 12:21 AM
Ah yes, sorry.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/SeriousBusiness.png

Terez
04-26-2010, 12:24 AM
wat?

Daekyras
04-27-2010, 07:56 AM
wat?

WoT?
sorry, thats just lame. I'll try harder next time!

Also, excellent theory about Nynaeve. Is that in the theories archive somewhere?

Crispin's Crispian
04-27-2010, 10:29 AM
WoT?
sorry, thats just lame. I'll try harder next time!

Also, excellent theory about Nynaeve. Is that in the theories archive somewhere?

That's theory's been around forever, hasn't it? Maybe not the specifics of using the Moghedien experience, but it seems like an old theory. Terez is pretty old, though.

Terez
04-27-2010, 10:32 AM
Well, I'm not so sure I ever saw the 'Nynaeve will Heal death' and 'Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod' theories put together as such, but I would be really surprised if no one had suggested it before. I just became convinced of it in TGS when it was emphasized yet again that Nynaeve only needs to see a weave once to learn it. Before then, I was leaning toward Rand being dead at the end of the series. I would still be elated if that happened, but after all his hope on the subject in TGS, I no longer think it's all that likely.

Davian93
04-27-2010, 11:26 AM
Well, I'm not so sure I ever saw the 'Nynaeve will Heal death' and 'Rand will be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod' theories put together as such, but I would be really surprised if no one had suggested it before. I just became convinced of it in TGS when it was emphasized yet again that Nynaeve only needs to see a weave once to learn it. Before then, I was leaning toward Rand being dead at the end of the series. I would still be elated if that happened, but after all his hope on the subject in TGS, I no longer think it's all that likely.

If he dies and is ripped out, it would likely heal all his wounds (side, hand missing, etc). None of the other Heroes have permanent wounds and I'm sure some of them died rather violently in their last incarnations.

Terez
04-27-2010, 11:33 AM
Right. Most people favor the body swap theory because Moridin's body is in better shape than Rand's. But really, Moridin's body is already damaged by extensive True Power usage. Add that to the fact that Rand being in Moridin's body would just be weird (his women would probably be perturbed), and the dying-ripping theory is clearly superior, on that reasoning.

Neilbert
04-27-2010, 12:01 PM
Also, Elyane's bonding Birgitte was what allowed her to survive being ripped out. Rand is bonded to 4 or 5 people now depending on how you want to count it. The 3 girls bond might even be a complete secret from the Shadow, and could possibly survive Rand's physical death.

Terez
04-27-2010, 12:43 PM
I can see the triple-bond surviving his death if for no other reason than the multiple visions/dreams of the three women standing over his body, as if the fact that they are standing there is important. But I doubt his link with Moridin will survive, and I'm hoping Alanna will be offed. She is one of those who is being held at the Black Tower - or she might have been killed already, and Rand just didn't notice because he had his mind on other things. :D Or because his bond with the girls sort of shoved his sense of Alanna into a corner.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 12:45 PM
I can see the triple-bond surviving his death if for no other reason than the multiple visions/dreams of the three women standing over his body, as if the fact that they are standing there is important.
Bonds break when people die. How, precisely, would this one mystically remain intact?

Terez
04-27-2010, 12:53 PM
Dunno. Because their love for him is so strong? It does seem rather unlikely, and there's no real logical explanation that I can think of, but I can still see it happening. Nicola's Foretelling in particular places a heavy importance on the harem:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

Suddenly Nicola spoke, sounding half-asleep. "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."
And again, with the Wise Ones' dream:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh

"They have shared dreams, some of which concern you." She sounded slightly strangled until she paused to clear her throat, then fixed him with a steady, determined gaze. "Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat," she said, the word still awkward after all these months in the wetlands, "with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword." For an instant her eyes darted contemptuously to the scabbarded blade lying atop the Dragon Scepter. Contemptuously, and a bit guiltily. She had given him that, once the property of King Laman, carefully wrapped in a blanket so she could not be said to have actually touched it. "They cannot interpret the dreams, but they thought you should know."
And Min's vision:
TITLE - The Eye of the World
CHAPTER: 15 - Strangers and Friends

"What about me?"

Her grin stopped just short of outright laughter. "The same kind of things as the rest. A sword that isn't a sword, a golden crown of laurel leaves, a beggar's staff, you pouring water on sand, a bloody hand and a white-hot iron, three women standing over a funeral bier with you on it, black rock wet with blood —"

"All right," he broke in uneasily. "You don't have to list it all."
The three women are obviously important.

Weird Harold
04-27-2010, 02:24 PM
... I'm hoping Alanna will be offed. She is one of those who is being held at the Black Tower ...

:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Rand steeled himself, listening to the dead man in the back of his mind as he studied the rest of the group. All of the remaining High Lords and Ladies of Tear were there atop their own mounts. Simpering Anaiyella sat her bay horse beside Weiramon. And . . . was she wearing a handkerchief favor bearing his colors? Rand had thought her a little more discriminating than that. Torean had a smile on that lumpy face of his. A pity that he was still alive when far better men among the High Lords had died. Simaan, Estanda, Tedosian, Hearne5-all four had opposed Rand, leading the siege against the Stone. Now they bowed to him.
Alanna was there, too. Rand didn't look at her. She was sorrowful, he could tell through their ond. As well she should be.


As for the Triple Bond surviving Rand's Death, Elayne made up that particular bond and might well have screwed it up; attaching it to Rand's Soul instead of his Body.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 02:28 PM
Dunno. Because their love for him is so strong? It does seem rather unlikely, and there's no real logical explanation that I can think of, but I can still see it happening.
Or we could go with Occam's Razor and conclude that either Rand won't "die" that way, or the bond(s) will break. :)

Terez
04-27-2010, 02:39 PM
Oh yeah, I switched Alanna up with Myrelle, lol. I like the idea about it being attached to his soul. The 'veins of gold' do appear to be important.

Or we could go with Occam's Razor and conclude that either Rand won't "die" that way, or the bond(s) will break.
wat?

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 03:17 PM
wat?
Your needle's stuck.

Of the following three scenarios, which one makes the least sense?

a) Rand dies, and his bond to the three women is broken.
b) Rand does the body-swap watusi, and because he didn't actually "die," the bond doesn't break.
c) Rand dies, but is mysteriously the first person ever to not have his bonds broken when he dies.

Terez
04-27-2010, 03:41 PM
Your needle's stuck.
You say that as if you didn't purposefully scratch my record.

Of the following three scenarios, which one makes the least sense?

a) Rand dies, and his bond to the three women is broken.
b) Rand does the body-swap watusi, and because he didn't actually "die," the bond doesn't break.
c) Rand dies, but is mysteriously the first person ever to not have his bonds broken when he dies.
False trichotomy. We have absolutely no evidence that it's never happened before, for one. For another, if Rand doesn't actually die when the body-swap whatever happens, then how is the prophecy fulfilled? In the dying-ripping scenario, he actually dies, and his soul goes to the afterlife. But Heroes are not dead as others are dead, and therefore the all of the prophecies are fulfilled.

Birgitte is a perfect example of why the 'Heroes are not dead as others are dead' bit is important. Because she had the ability to observe the living world in a limited way, and the ability to make the choice to break the precepts, to interact with living people who visit Tel'aran'rhiod, she was not dead as others are dead. And because she chose to break those precepts, she became a part of the living world before her time.

Rand will probably choose not to break those precepts, but Nynaeve will find him with Need. Dom from Wotmania/13th Depository thinks Egwene will be involved, and I can see that. Neither one of them are the three that have body-watching duty.

Birgitte was saved by Elayne's bond. Whether or not the bond survives Rand's death, that bond is what will save him. They might have to bond him again when he gets ripped out.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 04:15 PM
You say that as if you didn't purposefully scratch my record.
I have to admit, I didn't anticipate you actually being confused by my objection. So no, it wasn't "purposeful."

False trichotomy. We have absolutely no evidence that it's never happened before, for one.
Ah, but we've no evidence that it has ever happened, and evidence that it normally doesn't. Extraordinary claims, proving the negative, etc.

For another, if Rand doesn't actually die when the body-swap whatever happens, then how is the prophecy fulfilled?
That's your quibble, not mine, and you are fully aware of this from our previous discussions on the matter. It should suffice for me to repeat that I do not agree that your overly-literal interpretation of that prophecy is necessarily correct.

Birgitte is a perfect example of why the 'Heroes are not dead as others are dead' bit is important.
Birgitte is an example of a different state of "death," not of a different method of dying. Since the dying aspect is the one that must be overcome for "the links won't break" theory, that's the one you'll have to attack.

Birgitte was saved by Elayne's bond. Whether or not the bond survives Rand's death, that bond is what will save him. They might have to bond him again when he gets ripped out.
So far as I can see, that's the only way it could possibly play out.

To clarify a bit - I'm not necessarily objecting to your theory as a whole, just your new introduction of "maybe the bond won't break!" to the mix.

Terez
04-27-2010, 04:28 PM
Ah, but we've no evidence that it has ever happened, and evidence that it normally doesn't. Extraordinary claims, proving the negative, etc.
This is a bullshit argument because I never asked you to declare that it had never happened before. You did that all on your own. As far as we know, the odds are about 50-50 that it has or hasn't happened before, so there's no need to go making statements either way. So, straw man, red herring, circular logic, and a few others that don't apply quite so well, but good job on either being a troll or just being really bad at logic.

That's your quibble, not mine, and you are fully aware of this from our previous discussions on the matter.
How about let's assume that other people are reading this conversation, and you can try to explain again how your interpretation isn't incredibly illogical to the point of deus ex machina.

Birgitte is an example of a different state of "death," not of a different method of dying. Since the dying aspect is the one that must be overcome for "the links won't break" theory, that's the one you'll have to attack.
Nope, because in my theory he actually dies and goes to the afterlife, just like Birgitte did in all her past lives, and every other Hero for that matter. In yours, he doesn't. He just steals Moridin's body. Anne Rice wrote that book.

To clarify a bit - I'm not necessarily objecting to your theory as a whole, just your new introduction of "maybe the bond won't break!" to the mix.
Why? It's a special bond. I didn't introduce it as a necessary condition of the theory - I just threw it out there as a possibility, based on the idea that Rand's women will continue to give him a reason to want to live, like they did on Dragonmount, and like they have all through the series (while his fear of killing them like he did Ilyena has been the cause of him wanting to die). The bond not breaking isn't a necessary condition, but I can see it happening. You're saying it can't or won't happen, using the argument from ignorance and the false trichotomy and the straw man, etc.

All of this arguing is pointless, you know.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 04:45 PM
As far as we know, the odds are about 50-50 that it has or hasn't happened before, so there's no need to go making statements either way.
Is there evidence which suggests that it's possible the bond might not break after death? It seems like something that's been fabricated out of thin air, but perhaps I'm forgetting a quote - it does happen more often these days, I admit.

How about let's assume that other people are reading this conversation, and you can try to explain again how your interpretation isn't incredibly illogical to the point of deus ex machina.
tl;dr - you and I fundamentally disagree on what would fulfill the condition of "dying." If someone else would like me to expound on this, I could probably be convinced - from you, the request seems a bit disingenuous.

The bond not breaking isn't a necessary condition, but I can see it happening. You're saying it can't or won't happen, using the argument from ignorance and the false trichotomy and the straw man, etc.
You are misreading my objection. I'm not arguing that it "can't" or "won't" happen. I am pointing out that there's been no evidence introduced to make us believe that it's possible. Until such evidence is introduced, I see no reason to include it in our speculation.

All of this arguing is pointless, you know.
Welcome to Theoryland! :)

Sodas
04-27-2010, 04:52 PM
I agree with Tercel. I find that Rand's Soul could move into another body at Rand's Body's death. Rand's body dying fulfills the prophecies and has been hinted at since ACOS and our reintroduction to Moridin and the Gars. So the body swap concept has grounding in what we have known about Soul's being transferable for a long time.

I obviously, have never been a fan of the die to rip back out theory. I'm sure it's possible, but unlikely. There is no evidence that when a Hero dies, he is instantly available in TAR to be ripped out. Not to mention, Birgitte circumstances were unique, she broke the precepts and began talking with the living. No other Hero has done so, as they seem to be hiding from the living due the precepts of TAR, so what is to say Rand would be willing or even allowed to do the same? Nothing.

Terez
04-27-2010, 05:03 PM
You are misreading my objection. I'm not arguing that it "can't" or "won't" happen. I am pointing out that there's been no evidence introduced to make us believe that it's possible. Until such evidence is introduced, I see no reason to include it in our speculation.
I didn't misread it at all. You said that the re-bonding was the only way you could see it playing out in your last post. In the original post where you clarified your statement that made no sense, you flat out stated that it's never happened before. I only suggested a possibility.

nameless
04-27-2010, 05:12 PM
The "body swap" scenario seems pretty far-fetched to me. TAR resurrection is slightly more likely, if only because it's been introduced in the books before and is therefore something that can happen, but I don't really buy that theory either because Nynaeve's reaction to Birgette being ripped out of TAR makes it clear she considers the process an abomination that robbed her friend of the afterlife she'd earned through her heroics. She hates Moghedien for having done it and is not inclined to do the same herself.

The most likely interpretation of "to live, you must die" that I can think of is that Alivia will help Rand fake his death and Rand will use the deerhorn knife ter'angreal that Aviendha found to hide from the Shadow and nuetralize his link with Moridin.

Terez
04-27-2010, 05:33 PM
The "body swap" scenario seems pretty far-fetched to me. TAR resurrection is slightly more likely, if only because it's been introduced in the books before and is therefore something that can happen, but I don't really buy that theory either because Nynaeve's reaction to Birgette being ripped out of TAR makes it clear she considers the process an abomination that robbed her friend of the afterlife she'd earned through her heroics. She hates Moghedien for having done it and is not inclined to do the same herself.
That's the bit that detracts us away from the possibility, though, isn't it? The red herring. It was a horrible thing to have been done to Birgitte for two reasons:

1. It disrupted her normal life cycle. She is normally born many years after Gaidal, but now she will be at least a couple of decades older than him, in appearance. Since she has no idea who he is, and worries that she might not find him, this is tragic.

2. She almost died from it.

Obviously, the first scenario does not apply to Rand, because he will appear to be just as old as he actually is. His life normal life cycle will resume. His appearance won't change at all, beyond his body being healed of all those injuries. As for the second reason...well, that's what we're discussing. His bond with his harem will save him whether the bond breaks or not.

Nynaeve is not stupid, and neither is Egwene, or any of the harem. When Rand dies, and the Dark One is still breaking free, I'm quite sure that they will all see - perhaps with a little help from Birgitte herself - that there is no other way than to go to Tel'aran'rhiod and get him.

The most likely interpretation of "to live, you must die" that I can think of is that Alivia will help Rand fake his death and Rand will use the deerhorn knife ter'angreal that Aviendha found to hide from the Shadow and nuetralize his link with Moridin.
How does that count as dying?

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 05:46 PM
I didn't misread it at all. You said that the re-bonding was the only way you could see it playing out in your last post.
Thank you for changing the emphasis to prove your own point. If it helps, though, I will rephrase. If Rand dies and is pulled out of TAR, I believe the bond would be broken, and would have to be reattached. There does not appear to be any reason to believe that the bond would not be severed as usual, so st this time, I do not believe it.

In the original post where you clarified your statement that made no sense, you flat out stated that it's never happened before. I only suggested a possibility.
You appear to have misread again. My exact words were that "we've no evidence that it has ever happened, and evidence that it normally doesn't." Having no evidence ≠ it's never happened, just makes it less likely.

How does that count as dying?
By not using your literal definition.

Terez
04-27-2010, 05:55 PM
Thank you for changing the emphasis to prove your own point.
Excuse me? I was only highlighting what you said, because you were claiming you didn't say it. You're still claiming you didn't say it. But you did:

Rand dies, but is mysteriously the first person ever to not have his bonds broken when he dies.
Welcome to the ignore list. You're as bad as Sodas.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 06:21 PM
I will easily concede that I typed the words that you quoted. I tend to forget that I have to choose my words with exceeding care when debating with certain people, and make sure to over-clarify on my points - when I made that post, it was meant as hyperbole, to emphasize my own disbelief in that hypothesis. Unfortunately, when I use this technique with you, it tends to result in me being nitpicked on it; therefore, I should know not to do so in those instances.

Point stands, though. Is there any evidence that anyone's bond hasn't broken at death? I'm sorry if that's an inconvenient question, but it's pretty important. We have zero reason to believe that it's not the case; nor do we have hints that it's not the case; nor do we even have the famous RJ Inverse Foreshadowing of "clearly it's impossible for someone's bond to stay intact after death!" As far as we're concerned right now, based on textual evidence, Rand would be the first person ever to do such a thing. There is still room for clues to this possibility to be introduced, of course - but they would risk feeling rather shoehorned in this late in the game, I would think. And if such clues never did manifest, I suspect the cries of "foul!" would dominate.

Welcome to the ignore list.:(

Daekyras
04-27-2010, 07:48 PM
that was a very interesting debate. Reminds me of why i love this place. :)

Anyway, i have never seen this theory before. Guess it's a drawback from only dropping in from time to time. And from just being useless!
It's got me thinking about a few things. One of them is bonds. When moiraine 'dies', her bond to lan breaks/transfers.
Is there any evidence in the books that the *finns have control of souls after they die?
The reason i'm asking is that if she is dead, perhaps her soul is in T'A'R as she is a Hero and Mat and Thom and judging from the leaked cover, Noal, need to get her from there. Still not sure where the tower comes in but, heck, at least it gives me something to waste my time on! :)

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 07:56 PM
It's got me thinking about a few things. One of them is bonds. When moiraine 'dies', her bond to lan breaks/transfers.
Is there any evidence in the books that the *finns have control of souls after they die?
The reason i'm asking is that if she is dead, perhaps her soul is in T'A'R as she is a Hero and Mat and Thom and judging from the leaked cover, Noal, need to get her from there. Still not sure where the tower comes in but, heck, at least it gives me something to waste my time on! :)
There's pretty much two schools of thought on the Moiraine issue - either the bond broke because she died (unlikely, because of all the foreshadowing that she's not dead), or the melting of the redstone doorway and subsequent "shutting" of the door between worlds was also sufficient to snap the bond. It doesn't seem terribly likely that the Tower of Ghenjei is actually a door to TAR, nor that the 'Finn would be involved in any "rescue attempt" if Moiraine was actually a Hero in TAR. ~shrug~

JSUCamel
04-27-2010, 08:15 PM
There's pretty much two schools of thought on the Moiraine issue - either the bond broke because she died (unlikely, because of all the foreshadowing that she's not dead), or the melting of the redstone doorway and subsequent "shutting" of the door between worlds was also sufficient to snap the bond. It doesn't seem terribly likely that the Tower of Ghenjei is actually a door to TAR, nor that the 'Finn would be involved in any "rescue attempt" if Moiraine was actually a Hero in TAR. ~shrug~

So here's a question... how would the shutting down of the doorway "snap" the bond? As far as I know, we don't have any literal evidence to suggest that the bond is something that can be snapped in such a way, and by that I mean... there's no description (iirc) that suggests that the bond is like a leash attached from one person to the other that could snap when a door is slammed shut. Alanna is still bonded to Rand, afaik, and she's been hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from Rand.

On the other hand, the fact that they can sense each other through the bond and be influenced by either end could possibly suggest that it could, in fact, be a leash-like connection. That and the a'dam's powers are (iirc) a twist on the Warder bond.

Anyway... I have to admit I've always sided with Frenzy on the Moiraine-is-Dead thing, but now that we know she's not, I'm curious as to why the bond ended instantly (it's not like she had time to actively sever the bond as she's tackling Lanfear).

Terez
04-27-2010, 08:17 PM
It's got me thinking about a few things. One of them is bonds. When moiraine 'dies', her bond to lan breaks/transfers.
It might be that she severed the bond herself.

Is there any evidence in the books that the *finns have control of souls after they die?
They can't transmigrate souls, if that's what you're asking. Tam asked RJ about this at DragonCon 2005:

DragonCon 3 September 2005 - Emma reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9916)

Tamyrlin: The snakes and foxes seem to have a lot of powers. Do they also have the Power? I have two questions: can they transmigrate souls? Two: can they hold the soul of an individual they have killed.
RJ: No. No to both.

The reason i'm asking is that if she is dead, perhaps her soul is in T'A'R as she is a Hero and Mat and Thom and judging from the leaked cover, Noal, need to get her from there. Still not sure where the tower comes in but, heck, at least it gives me something to waste my time on! :)
Well, Moiraine said in her letter that she is not dead, and that she may yet live to her appointed years, so this one is a no-go. Also, how would they get her out of Tel'aran'rhiod even if she was there? They can't channel.

Belazamon
04-27-2010, 09:01 PM
Anyway... I have to admit I've always sided with Frenzy on the Moiraine-is-Dead thing, but now that we know she's not, I'm curious as to why the bond ended instantly (it's not like she had time to actively sever the bond as she's tackling Lanfear).
Simply put - not enough info. It's just speculation based on the available information. We know the bond was severed, and we were pretty sure (and now know) that it wasn't because Moiraine was dead. It seems logical that whatever connection existed could have been severed along with the connection between Randland and 'Finnland.

We could easily find out that something else happened, though. ~shrug~

nameless
04-28-2010, 02:07 AM
So here's a question... how would the shutting down of the doorway "snap" the bond? As far as I know, we don't have any literal evidence to suggest that the bond is something that can be snapped in such a way, and by that I mean... there's no description (iirc) that suggests that the bond is like a leash attached from one person to the other that could snap when a door is slammed shut. Alanna is still bonded to Rand, afaik, and she's been hundreds, if not thousands, of miles from Rand.

On the other hand, the fact that they can sense each other through the bond and be influenced by either end could possibly suggest that it could, in fact, be a leash-like connection. That and the a'dam's powers are (iirc) a twist on the Warder bond.

Anyway... I have to admit I've always sided with Frenzy on the Moiraine-is-Dead thing, but now that we know she's not, I'm curious as to why the bond ended instantly (it's not like she had time to actively sever the bond as she's tackling Lanfear).

The bond would snap as if she were dead if she were stilled, which would fit with her history of being in lock step with Siuan.

Weird Harold
04-28-2010, 02:12 AM
So here's a question... how would the shutting down of the doorway "snap" the bond?

Perhaps it didn't. Perhaps the bond to Moiraine still exists but is simply attenuated to the point it is overshadowed by the alternate bond to Myrelle.

Lan's bond is another of those unique or extremely rare situations where a weave we have a lot of information on is modified so that the "normal" result is altered in some way that isn't predictable from the available evidence on unmodified weaves. Moiraine modified Lan's Bond so that it transferred to Myrelle so whatever evidence is available on broken warder bonds doesn't apply.

When the redstone doorway melted, it didn't just close the access to *finnland, it destroyed the access. Whether the bond was broken or just temporarily disconnected and/o re-routed to the next nearest access to *finnland, the back-up bond to Myrelle would become much stronger and easier to connect to than the primary link to Moiraine. When Moiraine re-enters the 'real' world again, Lan's Bond to her may well reestablish spontaneously.

Neilbert
04-28-2010, 02:20 AM
So reasons the bond could have broken:
Moiraine did it intentionally.
Moiraine died.
Moiraine was stilled.
The Finnland connection being severed did it.
The Finns did it?
Mystery option "C".

lurk
04-28-2010, 06:13 AM
2. Realize that the superior theory is that Nynaeve will rip Rand out of Tel'aran'rhiod when he dies (she saw Moghedien do it to Birgitte...with the Power), and that Birgitte's comment that 'we are not dead as others are dead' serves as fulfillment of the 'dead yet lives'.

So Rand will die and LTT (or to be more precise, the embodiment of the dragon) will be ripped out by Nynaeve. For Rand is just one incarnation of the dragon soul. Or is LTT the hero who will return to TAR to be spun out again? What does the dragon soul look like in TAR?

all in all this would explain why the children from Avi look strange, they do not resemble Rand...

Tree Brother
04-28-2010, 08:31 AM
Lan's bond to Moiraine did not "break". His bond was passed to Myrelle.

Moiraine altered the bond to pass to Myrelle on her death, but that may not be the only way for it to pass. Moiraine did embrace the source before going through the doorway. That is all we are told though. She may, or may not have done anything else with the power (like triggering the bond to pass to Myrelle).

So I think there are three choices.

1) She intentionally passed the bond
2) She was stilled
3) The melting doorway caused the bond to pass, and she was not stilled.

Terez
04-28-2010, 11:24 AM
What does the dragon soul look like in TAR?
It's Tel'aran'rhiod. He'll look like whatever he wants to look like. :rolleyes:

Davian93
04-28-2010, 12:32 PM
Lan FELT Moiraine die...remember the whole rehibilitation process he was going through with Myrelle?

So, either she was stilled or killed. We know she's alive. Thus, she was stilled.

Occam's Chainsaw, people.

If the bond was merely passed or dissolved by Moiraine, he wouldn't have "swallowed her death" so to speak. That points to it being involuntarily snapped by either death or stilling.

Terez
04-28-2010, 12:49 PM
Actually, we don't know anything about what Lan felt, except that he felt the bond break. People made a lot of assumptions, but he never went crazy and tried to kill anyone. Moiraine specifically prevented that. He was rather pissed about the Compulsion aspect, though.

Davian93
04-28-2010, 01:12 PM
Actually, we don't know anything about what Lan felt, except that he felt the bond break. People made a lot of assumptions, but he never went crazy and tried to kill anyone. Moiraine specifically prevented that. He was rather pissed about the Compulsion aspect, though.

We have his explanation of it to Nynaeve, we have character POVs that mention an added coldness to his eyes, we have comments by him that Nynaeve is his life, etc etc. That precludes a voluntary release from the bond or anything else. He felt the bond snap and was Compelled to seek out Myrelle due to the prior arrangment. That's Compulsion is the only thing that kept him from going crazy. If Rand hadn't held him with Air, he would have gone into the melting doorway.

Weird Harold
04-28-2010, 02:19 PM
Lan FELT Moiraine die...

Actually, Lan doesn't say that he felt her die. What he says is:
tFoH CH 53:
"She is gone. I cannot feel her presence." The words sounded ripped out of Lan's chest. He turned and began walking down the line of wagons without a backward glance.

Basel Gill
04-28-2010, 02:30 PM
I was wondering whether or not it was just plain old grief. Does all the coldness, etc. have to be a snapped bond? If Moiraine severed it herself or transferred it, could it be a variant on the warder grieving?

Bear in mind that I usually do not post/reply on WOT threads (ironic I know), because I learned very quickly that I am not near the stickler for detail that the rest of you guys are.

Terez
04-28-2010, 05:42 PM
A lot of things are possible. Even Lan doesn't necessarily know what he's talking about, since he's never lost an Aes Sedai before, so he has nothing against which to compare his experience. He was rather emotionally attached to Moiraine, and also, he had dedicated half his life to her. She was the one that saved him from his man vs Blight battle that would likely have killed him sooner rather than later, and after she died, it was like he had nothing to live for except Nynaeve, whom he had convinced himself he couldn't have, and his war against the Blight, which his bond to Myrelle prevented him from indulging in. He still had a similar outlook when he went after Nynaeve in Ebou Dar, because he fed her the same lines when she told him they were going to get married. He only went to save her from whatever danger she might have gotten herself into, not to have her as his wife/whatever.

All that makes sense without the 'Warder rage'. Yeah, it's quite possible that the Warder rage had something to do with it, but Moiraine arranged for the bond passing specifically to prevent that. Whether she prevented it only by the aspect of Compulsion, or whether she prevented it altogether...we don't know.

Weird Harold
04-29-2010, 04:04 AM
...he has nothing against which to compare his experience.

He might not, but we do -- the account of Alanna losing her warders to the Whitecloaks(?) in the Two Rivers.

Lan lost his connection to Moiraine like having a switch thrown instead of experiencing the pain of increasing injuries that Alanna experinced. His statement to Rand was fairly precise, despite his grief and the pull of the bond to Myrelle.

Davian93
04-29-2010, 11:12 AM
He might not, but we do -- the account of Alanna losing her warders to the Whitecloaks(?) in the Two Rivers.

Lan lost his connection to Moiraine like having a switch thrown instead of experiencing the pain of increasing injuries that Alanna experinced. His statement to Rand was fairly precise, despite his grief and the pull of the bond to Myrelle.

He was charging a burning doorway when Rand seized him with Air. He sure as hell felt something that made him want to die in battle.

Terez
04-29-2010, 11:16 AM
But he didn't feel that she was gone until after that.

heridfel
04-29-2010, 11:50 AM
I seriously hope that the Dragon Soul isn't ripped out of TAR... That in my opinion would be the lamest of possibilities. I thought it was lame when it happened once, but if this is just going to be a routine, need a hero go pluck one from the TAR garden... awful. Honestly I am a fan of the Rand actually dies theory and the "if you would live" means that the soul survives. I realize that this is unlikely, and that the hero almost always survives in some form in epic fantasy... but I wish the death could be real. Further I think that some of the dream/prophesy/viewings don't have to be related to the finn answer. It is possible that he will also fake his own death before his actual death. That being said I think that, unfortunately, the body swap is the most likely scenario. However, if it is the ripped out of TAR scenario... well let's just say I'd be VERY unhappy.

Terez
04-29-2010, 11:58 AM
And if it's the body swap, I'll probably puke. It's pretty safe to say that whatever happens, about half the fandom will be unhappy about it.

Davian93
04-29-2010, 12:04 PM
And if it's the body swap, I'll probably puke. It's pretty safe to say that whatever happens, about half the fandom will be unhappy about it.

He'll be captured and crucified by Tuon...only to be healed 3 days later by Nynaeve.

heridfel
04-29-2010, 12:09 PM
He'll be captured and crucified by Tuon...only to be healed 3 days later by Nynaeve.
I can live with that :D better than the two scenarios most often suggested.

Terez
04-29-2010, 12:29 PM
Moar evidence:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

"Not soon, I hope. I plan not soon. I'm sorry, Min. I never should have let you bond me." But he had not been strong enough to refuse, any more than he had been strong enough to push her away. He was too weak for what had to be done. He needed to drink in winter, till he made winter's heart seem Sunday noon.

"If you hadn't, we'd have tied you up and done it anyway." Best not to ask how that would have differed from what Alanna had done, he decided. Certainly, she saw a difference. Climbing onto the bed on her knees, she cupped his face in her hands, "You listen to me, Rand al'Thor. I won't let you die. And if you manage it just to spite me, I'll follow you and bring you back."

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 33 - A Conversation with the Dragon

"We can find a way, Rand," Nynaeve said. "Surely there is a way to win but also let you live."

"No," he growled softly. "Do not tempt me down that path again. It only leads to pain, Nynaeve. I . . . I used to think about leaving something behind to help the world survive once I died, but that was a struggle to keep living. I can't indulge myself. I'll climb this bloody mountain and face the sun. You all will deal with what comes next. That is how it must be."

She opened her mouth to object again, but he gave her a sharp glance. "That is how it must be, Nynaeve."

She closed her mouth.

"You did well tonight," Rand said. "You have saved us all a lot of trouble."

"I did it because I want you to trust me," Nynaeve said, then immediately cursed herself. Why had she said that? Was she really so tired that she blabbed the first thing that came to her mind?

Rand just nodded. "I do trust you, Nynaeve. As much as I trust anyone; more than I trust most. You think you know what is best for me, even against my wishes, but that is something I can accept. The difference between you and Cadsuane is that you actually care about me. She only cares about my place in her plans. She wants me to be part of the Last Battle. You want me to live. For that, you have my thanks. Dream on my behalf, Nynaeve. Dream for things I no longer can."

I can live with that :D better than the two scenarios most often suggested.
Really???? You find it more lame for him to be ripped out Tel'aran'rhiod than for Nynaeve to find a way to Heal death? How does that make sense?

heridfel
04-29-2010, 01:37 PM
Moar evidence:






Really???? You find it more lame for him to be ripped out Tel'aran'rhiod than for Nynaeve to find a way to Heal death? How does that make sense?

Since it will NEVER happen... I can live with it because it's a funny joke. :D

ShadowbaneX
04-29-2010, 02:22 PM
A thought regarding 3)...sorta. Is Rand dead? I just reread the part following Nynaeve finding the poisoner in the dungeon and Rand relating the story about how no man can climb to the top of Dragonmount as they'd have no strength to return.

Well, at the end of the book Rand is on top of Dragonmount and quite a few people are wondering if he'll have the strength to return, ie make a Gateway or whatever. So, I have to ask the question, is the beginning of Rand's death. Also, it's rather symmetrical if you think about it, LTT died there, Rand was born on the slopes below and now he might well die at the top.

Thoughts?

Weird Harold
04-29-2010, 02:29 PM
He was charging a burning doorway when Rand seized him with Air. He sure as hell felt something that made him want to die in battle.

I'm sure that was absolutely the warder bond that caused him to rush into danger, and not his heroic nature, which would cause him to rush into a burning building to save kittens, puppies, babies, and other total strangers had nothing to do with it.

Sure Lan was running to rescue Moiraine but we don't know whether the Bond was transfered to Myrelle at that point or still connected to Moiraine. His action is consistent with what could be expected of an un-bound long-time comrade -in-arms -- an unthinking attempt to rescue in denial of the reality of the situation.

The point is that Lan did not say he "felt her die" he said she was gone and he couldn't sense her presence. Of course, we now know that he could not have "felt her die" because she isn't dead.

Lan also never said the bond was broken, severed, lost, or whatever; he said "She is gone. I cannot feel her presence."

Davian93
04-29-2010, 02:32 PM
Since it will NEVER happen... I can live with it because it's a funny joke. :D

Repped!

Davian93
04-29-2010, 02:32 PM
A thought regarding 3)...sorta. Is Rand dead? I just reread the part following Nynaeve finding the poisoner in the dungeon and Rand relating the story about how no man can climb to the top of Dragonmount as they'd have no strength to return.

Well, at the end of the book Rand is on top of Dragonmount and quite a few people are wondering if he'll have the strength to return, ie make a Gateway or whatever. So, I have to ask the question, is the beginning of Rand's death. Also, it's rather symmetrical if you think about it, LTT died there, Rand was born on the slopes below and now he might well die at the top.

Thoughts?


It would be quite poetic. Imagine the world reaction if his 4 bondee's announced his death? "Just when we thought all hope was lost..."

Davian93
04-29-2010, 02:33 PM
I'm sure that was absolutely the warder bond that caused him to rush into danger, and not his heroic nature, which would cause him to rush into a burning building to save kittens, puppies, babies, and other total strangers had nothing to do with it.

Sure Lan was running to rescue Moiraine but we don't know whether the Bond was transfered to Myrelle at that point or still connected to Moiraine. His action is consistent with what could be expected of an un-bound long-time comrade -in-arms -- an unthinking attempt to rescue in denial of the reality of the situation.

The point is that Lan did not say he "felt her die" he said she was gone and he couldn't sense her presence. Of course, we now know that he could not have "felt her die" because she isn't dead.

Lan also never said the bond was broken, severed, lost, or whatever; he said "She is gone. I cannot feel her presence."


Well, it mirrors the warder reactions when the AS with Elayne are killed by the Black Ajah. They just bolted towards the house...and were promptly killed themselves of course.

heridfel
04-29-2010, 03:02 PM
A thought regarding 3)...sorta. Is Rand dead? I just reread the part following Nynaeve finding the poisoner in the dungeon and Rand relating the story about how no man can climb to the top of Dragonmount as they'd have no strength to return.

Well, at the end of the book Rand is on top of Dragonmount and quite a few people are wondering if he'll have the strength to return, ie make a Gateway or whatever. So, I have to ask the question, is the beginning of Rand's death. Also, it's rather symmetrical if you think about it, LTT died there, Rand was born on the slopes below and now he might well die at the top.

Thoughts?

No way does that mean Rand will die on dragonmount! The quote is that no one can CLIMB dragonmount, not that they can't travel there carry oxygen and heat to themselves and just chill out.
BTW just because Tam and others believe that no one can climb dragonmount and return doesn't make it so, this phrase is more useful for its metaphorical value than its objective truth

ShadowbaneX
04-29-2010, 07:20 PM
that's the literal interpretation Herid, but as Dave said, it would be a far more poetic interpretation (and a nice hint of subtle foreshadowing) if his ascent of Dragonmount also meant his death. Ah, well, only another 6 months before we find out.

heridfel
04-29-2010, 09:30 PM
that's the literal interpretation Herid, but as Dave said, it would be a far more poetic interpretation (and a nice hint of subtle foreshadowing) if his ascent of Dragonmount also meant his death. Ah, well, only another 6 months before we find out.

Poetic... not in my opinion, it would be totally anti-climactic, and while yeah, you could say it ends where it began... LTT was just one incarnation of the dragon soul, why should the next dragon be beholden to the life path of the last, that's bad poetry, no innovation.

ShadowbaneX
04-29-2010, 11:41 PM
Ah, but this is a special case. It mentions that 'never' before was someone foretold to be reborn to carry on the fight, the war with the Shadow. Given the rarity, the uniqueness of this circumstance, it is fitting for things to happen this way.

How would it be anti-climatic? We know that in this particular case, in order for him to live, he needs to die. We also know of the connection with Ishy, and there's the possibility of him just being ripped out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod ala Birgitte, or summoned to battle via the Horn of Valere.

It is Rand's return to life that will be the climatic event, not his death.

There's a random question: what time of year is it during the books? Is it early spring-ish?

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2010, 03:39 AM
What if the DO refuses to come out and play?

WinespringBrother
04-30-2010, 07:49 AM
Ah, but this is a special case. It mentions that 'never' before was someone foretold to be reborn to carry on the fight, the war with the Shadow. Given the rarity, the uniqueness of this circumstance, it is fitting for things to happen this way.

How would it be anti-climatic? We know that in this particular case, in order for him to live, he needs to die. We also know of the connection with Ishy, and there's the possibility of him just being ripped out of Tel'Aran'Rhiod ala Birgitte, or summoned to battle via the Horn of Valere.

It is Rand's return to life that will be the climatic event, not his death.

There's a random question: what time of year is it during the books? Is it early spring-ish?

It is the end of June according to Brandon and Maria.

Davian93
04-30-2010, 08:09 AM
It is the end of June according to Brandon and Maria.

So perhaps he dies on Sunday (summer soltice)?

ShadowbaneX
04-30-2010, 01:00 PM
ah, well. I was thinking that it would be funny if it was Easter, but I guess it's a little late for that then.

heridfel
04-30-2010, 04:33 PM
Never before? Wheel world time is cyclical, it's happened infinite numbers of times before, and in every way possibly conceivable. Yes he has to die, but having him die just because he traveled to dragonmount, and just after he narrowly averted killing himself and the whole world, anticlimactic, and to use an over used term lame. IMO , If you think it is both poetic and cool that is your opinion and if I can't persuade you to my opinion further discourse on this topic is pointless :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2010, 04:51 PM
Nah, we'll get a two chapter description of Rand climbing down, and then he'll fall off a Tar Valon bridge and drown in the river.

Weird Harold
04-30-2010, 06:16 PM
is Rand's return to life that will be the climatic event, not his death.

Rand's resurrection is going to change the weather patterns? Cool! :D

ShadowbaneX
04-30-2010, 10:28 PM
Never before? Wheel world time is cyclical, it's happened infinite numbers of times before, and in every way possibly conceivable. Yes he has to die, but having him die just because he traveled to dragonmount, and just after he narrowly averted killing himself and the whole world, anticlimactic, and to use an over used term lame. IMO , If you think it is both poetic and cool that is your opinion and if I can't persuade you to my opinion further discourse on this topic is pointless :D
this is Theoryland, but definition it's alot of pointless discourse. It's all opinion and opinion is subjective. Yes, I think it'd be a neat way of doing it, especially with the little story he told to Nynaeve a few chapters before.

I never said you had to agree with me. Gonzo's version could be interesting as well. Actually, a better one would be that he gets to Tar Valon, sees Egwene's pissed and then has the wind suck him out the side of the Tower to go splat on the ground below. That could be fun too.

ShadowbaneX
04-30-2010, 10:29 PM
"Twice dawns the day", etc, etc. That certainly sounds like a shift in the weather patterns to me!

heridfel
05-01-2010, 10:03 AM
Let me just say again, I don't want Rand to return to life... I want him dead by the end. Any scenario that has him come back from the dead, or body swap, or be torn out of TAR whatever is incredibly dumb deus ex machina cheesy fantasy style writing(with the exception of brain eating zombie Rand that would be awesome) Please, please, please have the prophesy mean he must die to live again in another life in another age!

P.S. that being said I know there is going to be some contrivance to make him live again in this life, but however it is done it is going to be dissatisfying to me.

Tamyrlin
05-01-2010, 10:20 AM
That way we can continue arguing about it for the rest of this Age. Is he alive? Is he dead? I see those being two big theory factions at the end of the series...at least I hope for that, because I agree, knowing he is alive and well, just gone somewhere to hang with his three ladies seems too neat and cheesy.

Ozymandias
05-01-2010, 12:13 PM
Let me just say again, I don't want Rand to return to life... I want him dead by the end. Any scenario that has him come back from the dead, or body swap, or be torn out of TAR whatever is incredibly dumb deus ex machina cheesy fantasy style writing(with the exception of brain eating zombie Rand that would be awesome) Please, please, please have the prophesy mean he must die to live again in another life in another age!

P.S. that being said I know there is going to be some contrivance to make him live again in this life, but however it is done it is going to be dissatisfying to me.

I don't know that I agree with all this. Firstly, its not some deus ex machina, not when this particular tidbit of information has been around since the first part of the series. For twenty or so years he's been meant to die and live again; its been one of Rand's driving motivations throughout his campaign to defeat Shai'tan. So on the one hand, its presence in the story is absolutely necessary, because it gives Rand a motivation to keep fighting and also leads to some of the tension when he gives up hope of living; and once its in, I feel like it would be a cheap cop out if he DIDN'T live again in some way.

It won't be some miraculous event where the hero returns to live happily ever after out of the blue. We've KNOWN he's gonna live again since the first installment of WoT; if you were dissatisfied with what you thought the ending was going to be then, why keep reading? You know your going to hate it when its over.

heridfel
05-01-2010, 06:25 PM
Firstly, its not some deus ex machina, not when this particular tidbit of information has been around since the first part of the series.
Really it's been around since the first part? How so, we don't learn about the Finn fortelling until the second half of the books until then we are constantly lead to believe that Rand must die at Shayol Ghul, even after the fortelling the exact meaning is far from clear, to live again you must die in a world with reincarnation, hardly means you will die and live again as your current self in a relatively short period of time. Even with all that foreshadowing doesn't make it any less deus ex machina if it happens.

For twenty or so years he's been meant to die and live again;
It won't be some miraculous event where the hero returns to live happily ever after out of the blue. We've KNOWN he's gonna live again since the first installment of WoT;.

Once again quote please... AFAIK we don't learn about the possibility of living again until late in the series -although we may have suspected that the hero would survive- all information we are given by the story is that victory requires his death at Shayol Ghul until the finn answer is revealed

Terez
05-01-2010, 09:06 PM
Twice and twice is in TGH. Right along with twice dawns the day.

heridfel
05-01-2010, 10:54 PM
Twice and twice is in TGH. Right along with twice dawns the day.

How does twice and twice prophesy signify that he will live again... twice and twice shall he be marked twice for life and twice for death... herons dragons, done... pretty far stretch to say that that tells us he will die and live again right away... granted that's from memory so I may have the details wrong tell me why I should believe that it tells us he will die and live again... ok maybe with hindsight you can say live twice die twice... I still don't think that's what the prophesy is saying (I think the twice is significant for the amount of marks i.e. 2 marks for one life, two marks for one death)... however can you point out anyone who believed that that prophecy meant he would die and live again upon reading it in TGH or even until they were able to put it together with the other peaces of death foreshadowing i.e. Finn's info Wise Ones prophesy Min's viewing etc...

Terez
05-02-2010, 02:31 AM
Well, we find out for sure about the 'Finn prophecy in Lord of Chaos, which is fairly early on in the series, and Rand at least hoped every now and then that he could find a way to survive before then. Before The Gathering Storm, I was with you...I wanted him to stay dead. But after reading, I don't think it's all that likely.

I have a theory on Rand's death that I'm going to post soon. It's less about how he will live and more about how he will die.

Ozymandias
05-02-2010, 02:41 AM
How does twice and twice prophesy signify that he will live again... twice and twice shall he be marked twice for life and twice for death... herons dragons, done... pretty far stretch to say that that tells us he will die and live again right away... granted that's from memory so I may have the details wrong tell me why I should believe that it tells us he will die and live again... ok maybe with hindsight you can say live twice die twice... I still don't think that's what the prophesy is saying (I think the twice is significant for the amount of marks i.e. 2 marks for one life, two marks for one death)... however can you point out anyone who believed that that prophecy meant he would die and live again upon reading it in TGH or even until they were able to put it together with the other peaces of death foreshadowing i.e. Finn's info Wise Ones prophesy Min's viewing etc...

For one, I thought the whole "twice for life" was a pretty obvious indication that he would live twice. I actually became less and less sure about this as LTT started popping up more and more, but that seemed like a really obvious connection to me even at the time.

Seriously, what did you think that meant? I can't even think of another meaning.

Plus, RJ had some pretty serious plot notes, he had to have to write a series like this which is so amazingly internally consistent. And given that TG is a pretty major plot point, I'm guessing he had the details of Rand's entire battle with Shai'tan worked out from day 1. I'm pretty sure he as much as said so, that the Last Battle was one of the first scenes wrote. Am I wrong about that?

nameless
05-02-2010, 02:48 AM
How does twice and twice prophesy signify that he will live again... twice and twice shall he be marked twice for life and twice for death... herons dragons, done... pretty far stretch to say that that tells us he will die and live again right away... granted that's from memory so I may have the details wrong tell me why I should believe that it tells us he will die and live again...

IIRC it's "twice to live and twice to die," which can be parsed to mean "he shall be marked to live twice and die twice" as well as the more obvious meaning that he shall be marked twice.

heridfel
05-02-2010, 01:40 PM
I understand perfectly what it could mean... It's not rocket science, what I am saying is that I didn't see anyone posting that theory until LoC when we had the Finn answer, yes I know everyone can feel free to claim that they knew right away now... I just doubt it. Anyways even if you did know it was far from patently obvious from the begining of the series as the poster I was responding to claimed. In fact if it was so obvious we wouldn't be having this discussion! It is still somewhat ambiguous even with all the information so far... but I've said it 100 times, I agree that Rand will die and be brought back in this lifetime... I'm just saying... that sucks, makes the books cheaper, and I hate it... now that doesn't mean I'm not going to love the series still, I'm not heading out to get the giant serpent wheel and ravens tattoo that covers my chest removed... I just don't like it, and still have a 5 percent hope that maybe things like twice and twice are deliberate red herrings and Rand will be dead at the end, or at least fate unknown as Tam said, I like that too. BTW I think Elayne is toast at the very least, I mean come on Macbeth!

Terez
07-24-2010, 07:01 PM
So perhaps he dies on Sunday (summer solstice)?
I missed this post, forever ago, but this is actually a really good idea. My Gawyn theory partly operates on the assumption that Rand has to die when the Shadow's powers are the weakest, at noon (which is incidentally the time of day at which Gawain's powers were the strongest), so it would be fitting for Rand to die on the longest day of the year, with the most sun. It would mean that Rand would die a few weeks after the Dragonmount thing (two WoT weeks), which makes sense because when Rand went up there, Mat was still in Caemlyn. If the rescue is going to be in this book, the book pretty much has to cover at least 20 days or so.

It would also fit somewhat with the fact that Rand was kidnapped during the Feast of Lights, which was supposedly Perrin's 'first time' to be there for Rand. Rand's death will presumably be the second, either with Perrin not having made it with Morgase, or in Tel'aran'rhiod while the girls find Rand with Need (Slayer). Also, Winternight. A few important events on holidays, and a possible source for the holidays in the first place in the case of Sunday.

Neilbert
07-25-2010, 11:00 AM
I think that will be a red herring, and the actual time Rand needs Perrin will be after death, when the Shadow makes a play for Rands soul in TAR and Perrin must rally the dreamwolves to battle. I just have this suspicion that Perrin will sleep through the last battle.

4Alethinos
07-26-2010, 08:45 PM
Wow! Fun thread.

Someones just fooling around about Dragonmount. Nice.

Twice to live and twice to die makes perfect sense. He dies once and is brought back to live again. I happen to prefer the Moridin body swap, but that is irrelevant. Then he dies of old age in relative obscurity and occasionally making babies or just having fun with his thress wives.

The one primary weakness in Terez' theory is one that has been stated. Heroes are not supposed to speak to the living in TAR. Yes, Nynaeve did see the weave that Moggy used to rip Birgitte out and it is likely she can replicate it. However, you have to have access to the Hero to make it work and that is the part that I presently doubt in extremis.

Why is this ending any more cheesy than any other ending? Good grief, we know that any ending will not satisfy all TL'ers so why the fuss?

Terez
07-26-2010, 11:58 PM
The one primary weakness in Terez' theory is one that has been stated. Heroes are not supposed to speak to the living in TAR. Yes, Nynaeve did see the weave that Moggy used to rip Birgitte out and it is likely she can replicate it. However, you have to have access to the Hero to make it work and that is the part that I presently doubt in extremis.
Like I said, they will have to use Need to find him. ;) And perhaps Egwene will be needed to hold him down when they find him, but Need might be enough. Nynaeve was the first person who was taught how to use Need, incidentally. :D Like Amys said...she is the huntress...

4Alethinos
07-27-2010, 01:26 AM
I suppose that one could use the Horn of Valere to bring him back if he were so inconsiderate as to die before the Bore was sealed. However, I do not see the ending going in that direction, at all, at all.

Oh yes,just to throw my oar in the issue of bonds and death and Moiraine. We have zero evidence that bonds can survive death. To use the argument that there have been an infinite number of cycles is totally false. There have been many, but not infinite. The Author, RJ, has made it clear that the amount of deviation from cycle to cycle is comparatively small. This also precludes an infinite number of possibilities.

As to the Dragon Soul idea, RJ, stated that the same soul is not necessarily the Dragon soul for the next cycle. He even suggested that it could be or had been a woman. LTT is the Dragon soul for this cycle of the Wheel of Time. We cannot speak with any authority that the LTT soul was a dragon soul in any other cycle or will be in the next cycle.

Weird Harold
07-27-2010, 02:04 AM
Oh yes,just to throw my oar in the issue of bonds and death and Moiraine. We have zero evidence that bonds can survive death.

Depends on what you consider a "bond" -- Birgitte and Gaidal are bonded through all eternity, being spun out together to play out their Robin Hood/Maid Marian love story. The twins born to mark the changing of an Age are always born together.

Human-made bonds, like the warder bond, are mere window-dressing to the bonds the Pattern binds with, so they will disapate with Death or other interference, but the bonds placed by Fate will last to the end of time.

To use the argument that there have been an infinite number of cycles is totally false. There have been many, but not infinite. The Author, RJ, has made it clear that the amount of deviation from cycle to cycle is comparatively small. This also precludes an infinite number of possibilities.

In no way does the small degree of change from one Turning to the next preclude an infinte number of Turnings -- even if every change was in the same "direction." There are just as many points between zero and one as there are between one and infintiy.

As to the Dragon Soul idea, RJ, stated that the same soul is not necessarily the Dragon soul for the next cycle. He even suggested that it could be or had been a woman. LTT is the Dragon soul for this cycle of the Wheel of Time. We cannot speak with any authority that the LTT soul was a dragon soul in any other cycle or will be in the next cycle.

RJ wasn't very clear about the connection between archetypes and particular souls; personally, I think the LTT-soul is always the "Dragon" but some turning require another Zodiac sign as the Light's Champion. This Turning is the Turning of the Dragon, the next Turning might be the Turning of the Pig or Turning of the Chinchilla.

Also, IIRC, RJ said the "Dragon" is always male, but not always the pivotal Character and it was the "pivotal character" who might be female.

Terez
07-27-2010, 03:09 AM
I suppose that one could use the Horn of Valere to bring him back if he were so inconsiderate as to die before the Bore was sealed. However, I do not see the ending going in that direction, at all, at all.
I don't believe he will be brought back by the Horn. I believe he'll be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Nynaeve. 'Healed', so to speak. ;)

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2010, 04:10 AM
Oh yes,just to throw my oar in the issue of bonds and death and Moiraine. We have zero evidence that bonds can survive death. To use the argument that there have been an infinite number of cycles is totally false. There have been many, but not infinite. The Author, RJ, has made it clear that the amount of deviation from cycle to cycle is comparatively small. This also precludes an infinite number of possibilities.RJ also said that in some ways, a spiral might be a better analogy than a wheel. And with a spiral, no matter how close the individual turns are to each other, you can go infinitely far, if you have an infinite number of turns to use.

IamChosen
07-27-2010, 12:39 PM
I suppose that one could use the Horn of Valere to bring him back if he were so inconsiderate as to die before the Bore was sealed. However, I do not see the ending going in that direction, at all, at all.

Speaking of the Horn, anyone else here thinks Ingtar will make an appearence among the Heroes of the Horn?

Weird Harold
07-27-2010, 01:48 PM
Speaking of the Horn, anyone else here thinks Ingtar will make an appearence among the Heroes of the Horn?
Not I. :D

Ingtar may have redeemed his soul from the Shadow by his "heroic" last stand, but I don't think he qualifies as a Hero because of it.

4Alethinos
07-27-2010, 03:10 PM
Yes, I do agree that the idea of a spiral is a closer analogy than a wheel spinning on a fixed 2 dimensional axis. I just disagree that there have been an infinite number of such cycles. The WoT had a beginning and it may or may not end. Long lasting never means infinite and I am indifferent to what kind of math you may attempt to use. Cantor would laugh in your face.

WH, you may be correct. However, my recall was clearly somewhat different as I did not recall any statement that RJ said the Dragon Soul had to be male.

Infinity to the infinity power equals Aleph null. Is there an aleph state that is higher and yet less than a Continuum? Oh well.

IamChosen
07-28-2010, 02:14 AM
Not I. :D

Ingtar may have redeemed his soul from the Shadow by his "heroic" last stand, but I don't think he qualifies as a Hero because of it.

True, he did some dark deeds... but I dunno, there's something romantic and incredibly appropriate in the man who came into the Light ensuring the escape of the Horn of Valere becoming tied to it.


The WoT had a beginning and it may or may not end.

"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2010, 04:24 AM
"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning.""The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time." :p

Terez
07-28-2010, 04:31 AM
Well, we know the Forsaken weren't bound by the Creator...but yeah, presumably there is a beginning somewhere.

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2010, 04:47 AM
More accurately: in this case we can not really trust the information we get from the books, as "the beginning", whether it happened in time or not, was way before even the First Age, and hence all such information is totally untrustworthy.

Weird Harold
07-28-2010, 03:11 PM
"The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings or endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

Omniscient Narrative POV = Trustworthy

"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time." :p

Character POV == unreliable unless supported by Omniscient narrative.

There is no singular point on the WOT that can be pointed to and Labeled "Here begins a new Turning"

The Wheel was created, yes. However, once it was created, it had always existed and there was no "moment of creation."

There is no beginning or ending to the WOT, there is only existance or non-existance and neither is part of the Wheel.

4Alethinos
07-28-2010, 10:39 PM
WH, I am absolutely ashamed of you for suggesting that quote implies no beginning of the Wheel of Time itself. Shame! Shame! In the context of the WoT, it can only mean since the beginning of the Wheel itself. It never can mean infinite in context of the reality that the Wheel is a created thing by an eternal being.

There was a first First Age at the beginning of things. We have no idea how many cycles have gone on since then. RJ certainly suggested that there have been many cycles prior to this on, but he would never give a number, nor should he have.

4Alethinos
07-28-2010, 10:44 PM
I have reread that section where RJ speaks about the Dragon and the Dragon Soul.

First of all, I am not sure that he said that the Dragon soul always had to be male. Most of the time it was onlookers and questioners who made that statement.

Secondly, the reporter indicated that when RJ was asked if the Dragon could be female, and the reporter said tbat RJ unreservedly said "Yes".

It was that statement that I recalled. You can reread the section on Thus Says the Creator in the Theoryland site under Dragon or The Dragon and check it out. I may be wrong, but it is more difficult now.

crue
07-29-2010, 12:00 AM
I have reread that section where RJ speaks about the Dragon and the Dragon Soul.

First of all, I am not sure that he said that the Dragon soul always had to be male.

Actually, looking at the database and quote index, RJ specifically says that is the Dragon is always the same soul, and that that soul will always be the same sex. So, male souls are always reborn as male, and female souls are always reborn as female.


RJ: It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.
But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so . . .
. . . so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul . . . is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.

Weird Harold
07-29-2010, 12:22 AM
WH, I am absolutely ashamed of you for suggesting that quote implies no beginning of the Wheel of Time itself. Shame! Shame! In the context of the WoT, it can only mean since the beginning of the Wheel itself. It never can mean infinite in context of the reality that the Wheel is a created thing by an eternal being.

There was a first First Age at the beginning of things. We have no idea how many cycles have gone on since then. RJ certainly suggested that there have been many cycles prior to this on, but he would never give a number, nor should he have.
As far as human perceptions can determine, the wheel is "as it was and ever shall be" and Time extends backwards and forward infinitely. It was created in that condition and it will remain in that condition for so long as it exists.

In other words, beginnings and endings are a function of Time and for so long as Time is a valid concept, and Time is a Wheel, there can be no :Beginning of Time" or "End of Time" because if Time ends the concept of End or Beginning is undefineable.

alleluia_cone
07-29-2010, 01:35 AM
I don't believe he will be brought back by the Horn. I believe he'll be ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Nynaeve. 'Healed', so to speak. ;)

Assuming this scenario, won't Rand have to re-bond with somebody as their warder once he gets out?

IamChosen
07-29-2010, 01:52 AM
"The Dark One and all of the Forsaken are bound in Shayol Ghul, beyond the Great Blight, bound by the Creator at the moment of Creation, bound until the end of time." :p

That is catechism, thus unreliable. :)

Jordanism, however, is far more reliable.

WH, I am absolutely ashamed of you for suggesting that quote implies no beginning of the Wheel of Time itself. Shame! Shame! In the context of the WoT, it can only mean since the beginning of the Wheel itself. It never can mean infinite in context of the reality that the Wheel is a created thing by an eternal being.

There was a first First Age at the beginning of things. We have no idea how many cycles have gone on since then. RJ certainly suggested that there have been many cycles prior to this on, but he would never give a number, nor should he have.

The full nature of the Wheel and the Creator was not disclosed to us, and perhaps will never be, unless it's instrumental to the plot.

For all we know, the Wheel is part of the Creator who is part of the Wheel. If one can be eternal, both could be.

4Alethinos
08-04-2010, 09:53 PM
Pardon me I am chosen, while I restrain myself from laughing in your face. snicker

It is a fallacy to say that the thing created takes on the eternal characteristics of the one who created it. This is not a universe where everything in it is a part of the being who created it.

We have discussed, lo many moons ago, that the very first turning of the Wheel had the sense of age even though it was the first of a very many cycles. I happen to agree with that view. That does not mean that the creator created an eternal thing. It it were truly eternal, then there could be no possibility of failure. This is due to the fact that there would be no end to the Wheel of Time, ever.

Yet, it has been categorically stated that the DO can win. Therefore, the WoT is not eternal

WH, I am completely unconvinced that human perceptions of a really long time can ever equal infinity or even the remotest concept of eternity or infinity.

RJ stated categorically that the OP was not infinite. I won a huge argument with others on this site on that answer.

There are no infinities associated with the WoT.

Terez
08-05-2010, 02:36 AM
Assuming this scenario, won't Rand have to re-bond with somebody as their warder once he gets out?
Sorry, I missed this post. Yes, he would have to be re-bonded; I believe that's why the three women are so central to the prophecies concerning his death.

FelixPax
08-31-2010, 06:21 AM
Sorry, I missed this post. Yes, he would have to be re-bonded; I believe that's why the three women are so central to the prophecies concerning his death.



One curious fact, is Nynaeve did not feel a pulling by Rand's Need at Falme... while each Egwene and Elayne did.

Mins cheeks colored. Why am I behaving like Ive done something wrong? Fool! I . . . Im keeping him warm. He is unconscious, and hes as cold as ice.

Egwene did not come any further into the room. II felt him pulling at me. Needing me. Elayne felt it, too. I thought it must be something to do withwith what he is, but Nynaeve didnt feel anything.


The Eye of the World, Chapter 48 'First Claiming' - Min point of view


Even Lanfear obviously found Rand at Falme...and healed him. Thus saving Rand's life at Falme, being he was seen to be Verin.


Of course, I don't expect Lanfear to be alive in the waking world immediately after Tarmon Gai'don. I expect her to die at the very same time as Rand, Alivia from the same cause. So Lanfear isn't going to rip out Rand from the 3rd Constant. As she's going to be in the 3rd Constant already.


Yet might someone else or a group of individual instead of only Nynaeve actually do the ripping? Or perhaps Nynaeve's role is to do something to help heal Rand, after he is ripped out?


Min did once claim to Rand, that if he dies she would go after him (WH book). Hard not to see Elayne, Aviendha trying to find Rand with Min too. Egwene at least has been able to find Rand's ward Dreams in the TAR....