Enlist with who?

[Xoduz]

It's funny when you accidently google your own work and it makes you think twice. It happened to me when I refound the report from Dragoncon Day 2.

http://home.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Dragon%20Con%20day%202.html

"Sodas: Is there anything you can tell us about Taim’s choice to head to Andor after his escape.

Jordan: Well, he really didn’t have much other choice. He’s a man who can channel. At that time as far as he knows any Aes Sedai that gets there hands on him will try to gentle him again. But the word is getting around, there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, and maybe there are enough of them that if they stick together the Aes Sedai will not be able to take them down. So he has no other choice. He can either spend a life on the run or he can enlist. He decided to enlist."

That is a very interesting quote considering the following facts :

1. His escape predates Rand's arrival in Caemlyn. According to the WOT Chronology. Mazrim's escape became known to Siuan on June 8th, while Rand arrives on Sept. 21st. Thats over 4 months difference, or 105 days. So when Taim escaped, his choice would have been to be on the run or head to Rahvin's Andor.

2. Taim has been confirmed to be a Darkfriend with knowledge of the Lord of Chaos orders.

3. Rahvin was replacing any of those loyal to Morgase during that time period.

It is my opinion that what Jordan was talking about was enlisting in Ravhin's army. I'm not 100% sure if Taim knew it was Shadow at the time or not, but certainly Rahvin could have been marketing protection against Aes Sedai.

Comments?

[Terez]

Just because his escape predates the amnesty doesn't mean he couldn't have escaped, hid for a long time (obviously he did), and then enlisted when the opportunity arose. I know what you're getting at and why, but I think you're reading too far into it.

[Ozymandias]

well, he was captured in Saldaea, so the logical move would be to head south, as far from his captors as he could get. Arad Doman is in turmoil, so its dangerous to go there, or maybe he meant to... in any case, he probably just started running or went to ground, and its possible he made it far south enough that when the amnesty was established, he was near enough to Caemlyn to take advantage of it quickly.

Or perhaps he heard that Andor's relations with the White Tower were deteriorating (and the southlands tend to be more hostile to the Tower than the Borderlands), for whatever reason, and figured it would be a bit safer there than in Saldaea or Kandor.

[Weird Harold]

Just because his escape predates the amnesty doesn't mean he couldn't have escaped, hid for a long time (obviously he did), and then enlisted when the opportunity arose. I know what you're getting at and why, but I think you're reading too far into it.

Given RJ's response and the portion in Red below, I have to agree with Xoduz: Just who was recruiting "men like him" before his presence in Andor triggered Rand's announcment of the Amnesty?

Rand leaned forward ... " ... What is it you want of me, Lord Bashere?"

If his anger disturbed Bashere at all, the man gave no outward sign. Those tilted eyes watched Rand carefully, but not uneasily. "The White Tower allowed Mazrim Taim to escape. The false Dragon." He paused, then went on when Rand said nothing. "Queen Tenobia did not want Saldaea troubled again, so I was sent to hunt him down once more and put an end to him. I have followed him south for many weeks. You need not fear I've brought a foreign army into Andor. Except for an escort of ten, the rest I left camped in Braem Wood, well north of any border Andor has claimed in two hundred years. But Taim is in Andor. I am sure of it."

Rand leaned back again, hesitating. "You cannot have him, Lord Bashere."

"May I ask why not, my Lord Dragon? If you wish to use Aiel to hunt him, I have no objection. My men will remain in Braem Wood until I return."

This part of his plan he had not meant to reveal so soon. Delay could be costly, but he had intended to have a firm hold on the nations first. Yet it might as well begin now. "I am announcing an amnesty. I can channel, Lord Bashere. Why should another man be hunted down and killed or gentled because he can do what I can? I will announce that any man who can touch the True Source, any man who wants to learn, can come to me and have my protection. The Last Battle is coming, Lord Bashere. There may not be time for any of us to go mad before, and I would not waste one man for the risk anyway. When the Trollocs came out of the Blight in the Trolloc Wars, they marched with Dreadlords, men and women who wielded the Power for the Shadow. We will face that again at Tarmon Gai'don. I don't know how many Aes Sedai will be at my side, but I won't turn away any man who channels if he will march with me. Mazrim Taim is mine, Lord Bashere, not yours."

[Weird Harold]

well, he was captured in Saldaea, so the logical move would be to head south, as far from his captors as he could get.

Were it not for RJ's answer to Xoduz question, I'd say this simple explantion was the correct answer. I would go further and suggest that He wasn't headed for Andor, but headed through Andor to points further south where AS were even less welcome than in Andor.

However, RJ asserted that Caemlyn and recruiting of "men like him" was his destination. and that makes Xoduz's suggestion Rahvin was recruiting Dreadlords very plausible.

[Nazbaque]

Yes the fact that Rand had not yet declared his amnesty points to Taim seeking to enter Rahvin's service. However the "men like him" might just be Darkfriends instead of Channellers.

[Weird Harold]

Yes the fact that Rand had not yet declared his amnesty points to Taim seeking to enter Rahvin's service. However the "men like him" might just be Darkfriends instead of Channellers.
That's true, But "men like him" could also be failed "False Dragons" or "Saldean Rebels"

As an escaped False Dragon, I doubt MT expected to be able to blend into a general run DF recruits, but it is a possibility.

[Terez]

If it was just Darkfriends, then RJ wouldn't have said they would have a chance to stand up to Aes Sedai.

I still think you guys are reading too much into it - not that it would be surprising if Rahvin was gathering men who could channel, but it makes a lot of things seem rather odd about what RJ said. I think it's more likely you caught RJ in a bit of an error than that he was talking about Rahvin, becaue it's not RJ's style to go on about something we have no idea about as if we're supposed to know what he's talking about.

[Weird Harold]

I think it's more likely you caught RJ in a bit of an error than that he was talking about Rahvin, becaue it's not RJ's style to go on about something we have no idea about as if we're supposed to know what he's talking about.


RJ, the man who invented AS doublspeak and the saying "The Truth and AS speaks isn't always the Truth you hear" go on about something in a way that would misdirect our attention -- heaven forbid! :rolleyes:

RJ did occasionally mis-speak in Q&A sessions, but not very often.

[Terez]

Yeah, he doesn't misspeak very often...but it does happen. But going on about a hidden plot element like that is something that he NEVER does in interviews. It's pretty obvious he was referring to Rand's amnesty, because we all know about that. Saying that's why Taim went to Andor in the first place has got to be a misspeak, or he would have worded the answer differently.

[Weird Harold]

Yeah, he doesn't misspeak very often...but it does happen. But going on about a hidden plot element like that is something that he NEVER does in interviews. It's pretty obvious he was referring to Rand's amnesty, because we all know about that. Saying that's why Taim went to Andor in the first place has got to be a misspeak, or he would have worded the answer differently.
Not necessarily.

RJ was well aware of the Taimandred controversy and the speculation about where MT learned some of the things he knew about channeling and AOL turns of phrases.

I can imagine his inner glee at answering a question like that in a way that completely misdirects the speculation while "speaking no word that is not true."

Frankly, I'm amazed that it's taken this long for the anchronism of that answer to sink in and someone start thinking about who was recruiting in Andor at the time.

MT taking charge of the BT is a fairly important storyline and not one I'd really expect RJ to mis-speak about.

[Terez]

I don't see what you're getting at with Taimandred. Everyone who held on to that theory tried to say that RJ was being coy with his answers, but that only works if you believe Taim is Demandred. And none of the instances where RJ misspeaks are trivial, WH. Why should this be any different? If he was trying to tell us that Taim was going to Rahvin, he would have said so.

[Weird Harold]

If he was trying to tell us that Taim was going to Rahvin, he would have said so.

Why would he do that? If he wanted to spoil a plotline, he might bluntly expose MT as a longtime DF headed to join up with his mentor -- but RJ carefully concealed the source of MT's knowledge and AOL turns of speech; mostly concealed behind RAFO.

If Taim was headed to enlist with Rahvin as a Dreadlord, then this question provided RJ the perfect opportunity to forego "RAFO" in favor of misdirection by speaking a Truth that was bound to be misinterpeted.

[Weird Harold]

I don't see what you're getting at with Taimandred. Everyone who held on to that theory tried to say that RJ was being coy with his answers, but that only works if you believe Taim is Demandred. And none of the instances where RJ misspeaks are trivial, WH. Why should this be any different? If he was trying to tell us that Taim was going to Rahvin, he would have said so.
PS: I never held to the Taimandered theory and I think RJ was everso coy with any answer about Demandred or Mazrim Taim -- very nearly as coy as he was about Asmodean's death.

[Terez]

Why would he do that? If he wanted to spoil a plotline, he might bluntly expose MT as a longtime DF headed to join up with his mentor -- but RJ carefully concealed the source of MT's knowledge and AOL turns of speech; mostly concealed behind RAFO.

If Taim was headed to enlist with Rahvin as a Dreadlord, then this question provided RJ the perfect opportunity to forego "RAFO" in favor of misdirection by speaking a Truth that was bound to be misinterpeted.
If he was into doing such things, I might buy it. But he never did anything like that before. Why should this quote be different?

You guys can believe what you want about it, but I don't buy it.

[Neilbert]

If it was just Darkfriends, then RJ wouldn't have said they would have a chance to stand up to Aes Sedai.

But it wasn't just Darkfriends. It was Darkfriends under a Forsaken. It's easy to forget that they carry some weight.

[Terez]

Not sure what you're getting at Neil. No one carries weight with Aes Sedai except other Aes Sedai, with rulers of nations being a good step below that. Also, if it was just Darkfriends, then why would RJ say "men"?

Also, @ WH's last post: RJ was in general very straightforward with his answers. He only teased when he knew the theory was something the fanbase was obsessed with, like Asmo and Taimandred, and even then, he wasn't trying to drop hints with what he said - just trying to tease, with his talk about "intuitively obvious" and "Aes Sedai answers" (the latter of which actually came from a Taimandred fan question...RJ just took it and used it to tease).

If anyone's got an example of something like this, where you can read into an RJ answer in the same way you can read into the books, please share.

[Xoduz]

Thank you WH. I'm in disbelief as well. Mostly because it challenges the idea that Taim was already a Darkfriend prior to Andor, or any thought of Taim having the Chords to ward off Insanity...

In any case, Rahvin did recruit Darkfriends for sure. Daved Hanlon was one of Rahvin's "White Lions."

I would think Rahvin had to replace most of the honest men (Queen's Guard) with whatever thugs he could find, especially Darkfriends. Rahvin recruiting would have been neccesary.

Sammael, who didn't have to replace loyal guards, and others who were laying loy, wouldn't have sent out the same signals.

So really, I think it makes perfect sense for Rahvin to have attrached Mazrim Taim because of his general search to fill the Queen's Guard.

[Terez]

I never said it didn't make sense that Rahvin would do it...just that we have no other evidence he was doing it, and that RJ doesn't get that subtle with interview quotes. There are other reasons, from RJ's words: he said "near Caemlyn". The farm was near Caemlyn, and Rahvin was in Caemlyn. Also, "word is getting around". If Rahvin wanted to recruit Taim, there's nothing to stop him from doing it directly...that Taim would come to him on a rumor rather than an order, and by hiding and skulking rather than by gateway, seems odd.

You've also yet to establish that RJ has ever done anything like this with an interview question before, yet it's easy to provide examples of RJ misspeaking.

[Xoduz]

I never said it didn't make sense that Rahvin would do it...just that we have no other evidence he was doing it, and that RJ doesn't get that subtle with interview quotes. There are other reasons, from RJ's words: he said "near Caemlyn". The farm was near Caemlyn, and Rahvin was in Caemlyn. Also, "word is getting around". If Rahvin wanted to recruit Taim, there's nothing to stop him from doing it directly...that Taim would come to him on a rumor rather than an order, and by hiding and skulking rather than by gateway, seems odd.

You've also yet to establish that RJ has ever done anything like this with an interview question before, yet it's easy to provide examples of RJ misspeaking.

I just named you a recruited Darkfriend. I think that's evidence to suggest that he did know what he was doing in his replacement of the Queen's guard. He did pull in Darkfriends, why not Taim?

I don't find the second point valid, per WH's quote. It's clear that Amnesty came after Taim's arrival, and any indication prior to Rand's amnesty declaration is unsupportable. In otherwords, I doubt Taim was thinking about the Farm before he could have even known it existed. (Hence, I think your claim of mispeak comes from this.)

As far as Rahvin recruiting Taim directly, I think it's pretty clear he didn't. It was Taim's choice in the matter. But there could be something stopping Rahvin from directly recruiting ~ knowing where he is.

I for one don't agree that Taim could Travel prior to his meeting with Rand. Maybe Skim, but that's just a outside theory. I also don't agree that he was lurking, as per WH's quote once again, he was being chased. I think he realized right away that no where would be safe. So the idea of lurking doesn't strike me as a smart or likely thing for Taim to have done.


Everyone mispeaks. I'll definately grant you that. I think you can validily say that Jordan could have mispoke, or that the translation from voice recorder to paper was flawed, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that Jordan's quote matches the evidence. (Wiether you agree with that or not is up to you.)

I personally, have no always agreed with everything Jordan has said. But it's his series, so who am I to argue? If this quote is true, that Taim choose to go to Ravhin (becoming a Darkfriend in the process), I will have been disproven on some of my Taim theories. I am man enough to say I was wrong, and work towards getting the right answer.

[Terez]

I just named you a recruited Darkfriend. I think that's evidence to suggest that he did know what he was doing in his replacement of the Queen's guard. He did pull in Darkfriends, why not Taim?
I'm not saying he wouldn't - just saying there's no evidence that he recruited Taim, plenty of evidence that Taim was recruited long before he showed up on Rand's doorstep, and that there are better ways, with the Darkfriend structure, to go about recruiting than dropping rumors.

I don't find the second point valid, per WH's quote. It's clear that Amnesty came after Taim's arrival, and any indication prior to Rand's amnesty declaration is unsupportable.
That much was agreed on a long time ago. I'm saying it's obvious RJ misspoke on that detail.

I also don't agree that he was lurking, as per WH's quote once again, he was being chased.
Who said he was lurking? I just said he made his way to Andor by hiding and skulking, not that he hid around in the city.

Everyone mispeaks. I'll definately grant you that. I think you can validily say that Jordan could have mispoke, or that the translation from voice recorder to paper was flawed, but that doesn't cancel out the fact that Jordan's quote matches the evidence. (Wiether you agree with that or not is up to you.)

I personally, have no always agreed with everything Jordan has said. But it's his series, so who am I to argue? If this quote is true, that Taim choose to go to Ravhin (becoming a Darkfriend in the process), I will have been disproven on some of my Taim theories. I am man enough to say I was wrong, and work towards getting the right answer.
That's cool. I still think you're reading too much into it, because as I've said before, RJ doesn't beat around the bush when he answers interview questions, and it's much easier to believe he misspoke here than to believe he was being so convoluted with his answer.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, if he did misspeak about the timing, then there are some fairly obvious implications of this statement, if the "men like me" refers to channelers.

First, Taim did not polish off Asmodean in order to take his place. No matter when he may have started moving in the direction of Caemlyn based on those rumors, it wouldn't be the very day that Rand took the city.

Second, Taim was not send by a Forsaken. He may have been in touch with one, and he may have been instructed to built his own organisation within the BT by his Forsaken handler (if he has one), but he decided on his own to go there.

Third, the timing of the announcement of the BT and the amnesty was not a major plot element. If it had been, then RJ almost certainly wouldn't have botched it in this way.

Fourth, it would seem that Taim's story about the Seal might be sort of truthful. Though it is definitely possible he left out some murders, purely for the sake of brevity, of course.

[Nazbaque]

Well the not DF Taim is quite a longshot in any case:

1) He would have to be a sparker since the only trainer(s) available are Forsaken and that would mean DF

2) He looks to be in his mid thirties and by slowing he could have been channelling for fifty to hundred years. How did he put off the madness? No one else seems to have beaten Rands two years (or is it three) and his sanity is questionable.

3) How did he hide from the Tower?

Now the Ishy training theory explains all three in one go, if the training took place just before his False Dragonhood. He is not an extra rare male sparker just a rare male channeler. He has only escaped madness for about the same time as Rand (and he could have DO's protection which would have protected him even if he were a sparker and channeled for fifty years). And there is that nice hiding place called Shayol Ghul. Effective against Aes Sedai wheter it was fifty years or just his training period.

[Enigma]

Would Rahvin recruit Taim from what we know of the two men? Firstly I was under the impression that the forsaken did not broadcast their locations even among dark friend networks. Some like Sammael and Be'lal did not go out of their way to hide their presence to those who knew where to look i.e. not shielding their dreams but for the most part they seemed to take their exact location as secret except to those dark friends directly serving them.

Secondly Lanfear specifically said that Rahvin would never train Rand unless he was bound to him, hence the need for Asmodean. Now Lafear is no more dependable that Ishamael when it came to the truth but I suspect that she may have been right.

Rahvin by all accounts was taking care, manipulating nobles and Aes Sedai without putting himself in the firing line. Taim in not Rand but he is very very strong, just a bit behind Rand and a match for most of the forsaken. That would make him a very big threat to have at your back.

Putting the two together I doubt if Taim knew where Rahvin was to approach him and I just can't see someone as careful of his safety as Rahvin inviting a powerful potential rival into his domain. Ishamael or Demandred have enough arrogance in their own abilitest to think they could control him but Rahvin does not strike me as that way.

Lastly, as far as I recall there were stories of Rand gathering men who could channel around him long before he actually started to gather the Asha'man.

I could be very wrong here but I was under the impression that Taim fled south to get away from Bashere and his army and people who knew what he looked like. As he goes further south he heard Rand was in Andor and was very powerful and might even have a few other male channelers with him so he figured it might be his only safe haven and headed to Andor.

[Weird Harold]

Would Rahvin recruit Taim from what we know of the two men? Firstly I was under the impression that the forsaken did not broadcast their locations even among dark friend networks.

Would MT have known Rahvin wouldn't enlist him? RJ said he was folllowing rumors of a chance for "men like him" to enlist, which is a much different thing than being recruited.

Rahvin would not necessarily have to advertise his own presence or identity to spread rumors of enlistment opportunities for either DFs or for male channelers -- he could just delegate recruitment and training to the first male channeler to come along and offer to serve him. :rolleyes:

I doubt that Rahvin was personally vetting the DF recruits for the Queens Guard or that most of them knew that "Lord Gaebril" was anything more important than a high ranking DF -- if they knew that much.

.... But the word is getting around, there are men gathering near Caemlyn, men just like him, ...

Note also, that RJ said "there are men gathering" and NOT "men like him were being gathered," or "someone was recruiting men like him."

Another possibility is that The Pattern was spreading rumors and guiding men who can channel to Caemlyn.

[Terez]

Much more likely RJ misspoke. ;)

[Enigma]

I doubt that Rahvin was personally vetting the DF recruits for the Queens Guard or that most of them knew that "Lord Gaebril" was anything more important than a high ranking DF -- if they knew that much.

Rahvin might not have been vetting the new recruits to the guard but there is a very big difference between a darkfriend with some military training and a powerful forsaken strength channeler.

I could be completly wrong here but I keep remembering how Rahvin acted when Lanfear showed up on his doorstep uninvited to bring him into the plan to trap Rand.

He didn't like having other powerful channelers near him and had the city warded a lot like Sammael eventually did in Illian so that he could strike at any male channeling. Taim would just be too much of a risk for him.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the other hand, if Rahvin had actually recruited Taim, then why didn't he use this powerful minion when Rand attacked?
If Taim was available, then he could have tipped the balance. I am not at all convinced that Nynaeve/Moghedien could have defeated the M'Hael, and if he even only had kept them busy, then Rand would most likely have lost the fight.

[Dragon]

RJ also stated in another Q&A:

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes sedai?
RJ: Ta eem, (he said it phonetically) (don’t know how to write down how to say it, but it’s not how most people say it)
RJ: Sure, he is a men who can channel. The aes sedai see him as a men who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place were there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes sedai won’t be able to come after him.

This in addition to the other - frankly totally clear quote - makes it obvious that RJ simply wanted to tell us that Taim went there because of Rand's amnesty for channelers (not because of Rahvin), though Taim certainly had some other more sinister motives as well.

[Terez]

Thanks Dragon. I'm practically useless with RJ interview quotes, cause they're so scattered around. :D Too bad Zae is on vacation, or she could have cleared this up already (yeah, right :p).

[Dragon]

No problem.

South, i.e. Andor, was the logically direction for the freed Taim, if he wanted to avoid Borderlanders, especially from Saldaea, and Aes Sedai from Tar Valon. In Andor, Taim eventually heard of Rand's amnesty and joined him.

It's just interesting how Taim came into possession of the Seal, because it seems unlikely that he returned to Saldaea after he was freed (that's after all, the most dangerous place for him) and then went south. And if he got the Seal before, why didn't the AS take it?

That indicates that his Seal story was probably a lie and that Taim likely got it from the Shadow shortly before he joined Rand, namely as a mean to gain Rand's trust.

[Terez]

It's still odd that he gave it to Rand, considering the concern over the seals later, but perhaps he thought it would be easy to get it back. It might have gained Rand's trust (though I think that more evidence of Rand's desperation) but it still seems a risky move.

[Dragon]

The question is, if Taim was already a DF back then in LoC (I tend to believe he was).

That a non-DF Taim found - by chance - a Seal would probably be not less odd, than the Shadow using a Seal in such a way. At least, we saw in TGH that the Shadow is actively hunting for the Seals, e.g. the one Bayle Domon had.

So, maybe the Shadow truly considered the risk giving Rand a Seal relatively minor at a point, when "the time" was not yet "near" (like in KoD), since Taim needed to gain Rand's trust. After all, most Seals broke on their own, anyway.

I would say also Moridin doesn't even seem that concerned about the Seals in KoD, ch.3.
Demandred has to remind him of them first.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the other hand, we also saw when Moghedien was in Tanchico (TSR), that she at least seemed to have no special interest in the Seals. If the Shadow as a whole was interested in them, then I would have expected her to have taken it. But she simply left it were it was, all she was hide it beneath an illusion.
The evidence suggests that some of the lower levels on the Shadow side are trying to find the Seals, while the Forsaken and the DO aren't bothered about their exact location.

[Terez]

Except for the Demandred bit. And the fact that Graendal is also suspect for going after Bashere and Dobraine, since she's the one with the known forging skills.

[Dragon]

Apparently the (formerly rather latent) desire of the Shadow to have the remaining Seals in their possession increases the closer the Day of Return comes.

It's definitely interesting, though, that Moridin is certain that Rand has all three remaining Seals, and that they are all still intact. The latter can probably be deduced by watching the remaining blockage of the Bore.

[Terez]

He didn't say they were still intact, though, did he? I don't interpret his comment that way - just that he knows the others are broken. Most of us assume that the remaining seals are still intact (though I wouldn't be surprised if one or two is broken, personally) but no one really knows.

[Dragon]

Moridin basically implies that the three last Seals must be intact, because he says that "only three remain, all in al'Thor's possession" (contrary to those 4 already broken), and that he doubts that Rand has them with him, since "they're too susceptible to breaking, now." (meaning they didn't already break yet).

[Terez]

I still don't think his comments are all that definitive. Yeah, the implication is there, but that doesn't mean he knows what he is talking about. It could be just that he's got confirmation that the other four are broken, and assumes that the three he knows Rand has aren't yet broken.

[GonzoTheGreat]

On the other hand, if the Seal on the DO's prison is anything remotely like the shielding of channelers, then it is entirely possible that the DO can determine how many of those Seals still hold. And in that case it is not too much of stretch that he could have told Moridin, which would make his knowledge a whole lot more certain.

[Dragon]

Perhaps, though I don't really see why Moridin would make such a definite statement then, especially since also Demandred seems certain that the three last Seals are still intact, otherwise his search would be pointless.

I think it even makes some sense that either the DO knows how many Seals remain, or that the Forsaken could conclude it after investigating the blockage of the Bore.

[Weird Harold]

South, i.e. Andor, was the logically direction for the freed Taim, if he wanted to avoid Borderlanders, especially from Saldaea, and Aes Sedai from Tar Valon. In Andor, Taim eventually heard of Rand's amnesty and joined him.

The timing still doesn't fit RJ's explanation.

According to the Chronoolgy:

Taim escaped shortly before day 442 of the series (Tar Valon recieved the news by Pigeon so at most he escaped a couple of days earlier.)

Davram Bashere chased him south and arrived in Caemlyn a few week or so before Rand took over on day 547 of the series -- 125 days or so after Taim's "Escape."

That's 12.5 WOT weeks (ten days/week) that Taim could NOT have been following rumors of Rand's amnesty. It is at this point that Davram Bashere said "I can assure you that Mazrim Taim is in Andor."

However, there is a gap of 37 days (to day 584 of the series) before Taim takes advantage of the amnesty. So if Taim wasn't chasing rumors of DF/Channelers gathering for some other reason, RJ must be implying that Bashere was wrong about Taim being in Andor?

It's definitely interesting, though, that Moridin is certain that Rand has all three remaining Seals, and that they are all still intact.

Moridin has made several cryptic comments about playing both sides or having inside information from all the important factions -- rand's camp, and both halves of the WT. It doesn't surprise me that Moridin knows where the Seals are in general terms or that he's reasonably certain they're well protected against breakage.

[Terez]

However, there is a gap of 37 days (to day 584 of the series) before Taim takes advantage of the amnesty. So if Taim wasn't chasing rumors of DF/Channelers gathering for some other reason, RJ must be implying that Bashere was wrong about Taim being in Andor?
Yes, that's obviously the bit he forgot - either that or he didn't mean to imply that's why Taim headed to Andor in the first place - rather that's why he headed into Caemlyn. :rolleyes:

[Enigma]

Another thing to remember is the answeer that RJ gave on how Rand got Taim's age wrong. I don't have the exact quote but it went something along the lines that "Taim was looking the worse for the journey and being on the run. Once he had a bath and new clothes he looked a lot younger".

If Taim was in this state it would suggest that he did not hand around once he reached Andor and went straight to Rand.

If Taim is a darkfriend (which seems pretty likely) at this stage he could have escaped then tried to check in with shadow HQ for help/instructions. This might account for some time.

Lastly I wonder how Bashere was able to keep up with Taim. Granted Taim could not travel etc but surely it is a lot easier for one man to get ahead of a slower moving 9,000, especailly if he has the OP to help him steal horses etc.

Could it be that Taim was making his way south with Bashere behind following by scouts. Taim goes through Andor and perhaps even leaves the south of Andor when word gets out about the amnesty. At that point he turns around and heads back north to caemlyn.

Bashere's got a problem when he reaches the border as he can't bring his army across. The last report he had was of Taim in Andor so he turns this to a "Taim is in Andor" in order to try and get permission to bring his army down onto Andoran soil. Its not just Aes Sedai who can bend the truth a little and at that point Bashere had no reason to trust Rand

[Nazbaque]

Lastly I wonder how Bashere was able to keep up with Taim. Granted Taim could not travel etc but surely it is a lot easier for one man to get ahead of a slower moving 9,000, especailly if he has the OP to help him steal horses etc.
Those 9,000 were light cavalry, which is practically the fastest in military units before engines and excluding Seanchan special beasts (can't remember if any were faster than horses, but wouldn't be surprised)

[the silent speaker]

Well the not DF Taim is quite a longshot in any case:

1) He would have to be a sparker since the only trainer(s) available are Forsaken and that would mean DF

2) He looks to be in his mid thirties and by slowing he could have been channelling for fifty to hundred years. How did he put off the madness? No one else seems to have beaten Rands two years (or is it three) and his sanity is questionable.
Actually not. First, per RJ quote, Taim is in his late twenties, he just looks older. And what's so odd about him being a spark?
Second, men start slowing ten years later than women do, so if Taim started channeling late there's the possibility that he really hasn't been channeling longer than the five years or so that he looks to have been.
Third, Logain's been channeling six or seven years too, and he's arguably saner than Taim.
Finally, while a fifteen-year channeler would be darned rare, Ishamael's comment to Lews Therin ("Every day a hundred men more join them") coupled with the attested length of the Breaking suggests that it does happen now and again.

[Nazbaque]

Male sparker's are rare. It adds it's own to the longshot. But the important part is that a sparker has to start in his early twenties. Giving him six to twelve years of channeling even wihout slowing.

[Terez]

But the important part is that a sparker has to start in his early twenties.
Not so:

TITLE - New Spring
CHAPTER: 3 - Practice

The next weave was one of the complex and useless sort, requiring all of the Five Powers, but Moiraine answered as she wove it. She could talk and channel at the same time, after all. Air and Fire so, and Earth thus. Spirit, then Air once more. She wove without stopping. For some reason, you could not hold these weaves only partly done for very long or they collapsed into something else entirely. Spirit again, then Fire and Earth together. "They will have twenty years to learn how. Or nearly so, at worst. At best, they will have longer." Girls sometimes, if rarely, began channeling as young as twelve or thirteen, it they were born with the spark, but even with the spark boys never did before eighteen or nineteen, unless they tried to learn how, and in some men the spark did not come out until they were as old as thirty. Air again, then Spirit and Water, all placed precisely. "Besides, he will be the Dragon Reborn. Even the Reds will have to see that he cannot be gentled until after he fights the Last Battle." A grim fate, to save the world if he could, then for reward be cut off from this wonder. Prophecy was not known for mercy any more than for yielding to prayers. Earth again, then Fire, then more Air. The thing was beginning to look like the most hopeless knot in the world.

[Nazbaque]

My mistake... Really have to read NS again...

[Terez]

I <3 New Spring. :D

[Xoduz]

Zaela: Did Taim have motives for coming to Andor after he escaped the Aes sedai?
RJ: Ta eem, (he said it phonetically) (don’t know how to write down how to say it, but it’s not how most people say it)
RJ: Sure, he is a men who can channel. The aes sedai see him as a men who can channel. They will hunt him down and gentle him if they can. He has one safe haven in the world. A place were there are more men like him. Just maybe, if there are enough men like him, the Aes sedai won’t be able to come after him.
I don't understand how this quote doesn't apply to Rahvin. Did Rahvin, and other men like him, all of a sudden stop being able to channel?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Rahvin could channel, but he didn't let word of that come out. If he had openly said that he was a male Forsaken, then Andor would have risen against him, and perhaps even Elaida would have taken notice.

[Dragon]

@Weird Harold

There is also this Q&A:

WinespringBrother: How did Bashere and his army manage to track Taim hundreds of miles?

Jordan: Because a man like Mazrim Taim leaves a trail, even when he is trying to travel quietly, traveling quietly is not in his character.

I believe one can solve this apparent little contradiction (was Taim already in Andor before Rand's amnesty or not?), if one simply assumes that RJ toke both questions as if the questioner simply wanted to know why Taim came to Caemlyn and joined Rand (even if one questioner mentions Andor).

It's in any case hardly arguable then that RJ stated in essence: because of Rand's amnesty for channelers.

Probably, though, Taim already went to Andor before Rand announced his amnesty, because that is simply the safest direction for him, hunted by Bashere and AS. However, there is nothing that links Taim to Rahvin.

But I definitely hope for a Taim PoV in AMoL to solve all such little things.. ;)

[Dragon]

@Xodus

This and the other quote make unambiguously clear that RJ is simply talking about Rand's amnesty. I really don't see how one can understand it otherwise.

[Xoduz]

Rahvin doesn't have to broadcast anything. The mere fact that Lord Gaebril distastes Aes Sedai, a perfectly acceptable cultural bias in the Wetlands, would attract many. And would attract a Mazrim Taim, who needs any form of safe heaven from them.

Jordan specifically says he is looking for more men like him, not neccesarily he is looking for male channelers. Even if he were, Rand is just 1 channeler, and clearly not like him. Taim is a Darkfriend. Rand is not.

[Dragon]

In my view it's rather crazy to believe that RJ wanted to tell us in those quotes - in a convoluted way - that Taim is actually a Darkfriend and wanted to join Rahvin, when Taim's affiliation was always (at least till the end of KoD) a big RAFO. Why should RJ do that?

It makes much more sense that RJ is simply in more detail confirming with those quotes, what is also indicated in the books, namely that the hunted Taim heard of the amnesty for channelers and thus decided to join Rand.

If one then allows RJ to possibly make a little mistake concerning Taim's stay in Andor (after all, he also falsely claimed we didn't see Graendal at the Cleansing..), it fits 100 % with everything we know.

[Xoduz]

@Weird Harold

I believe one can solve this apparent little contradiction (was Taim already in Andor before Rand's amnesty or not?), if one simply assumes that RJ toke both questions as if the questioner simply wanted to know why Taim came to Caemlyn and joined Rand (even if one questioner mentions Andor).
You say you can't believe why people would "understand otherwise." Yet, your entire thought process is assuming that RJ misunderstood both questions.

Niether answer mentions Rand. Niether answer mentions the Amnesty.

I believe that Jordan is describing motive and then goal. Simply put, Taim's motive to leave Seachan = Why Taim went to Andor.

Instead, you are reading it as;

The reason for Taim's motive = What Taim's looking for = Rand

Do you think Jordan could have just summed up the answer if you were correct with a simple ...

"He went to Caemlyn for the Amnesty."

or

"He wanted to see Rand."

That is why I "understand otherwise." I think Jordan knew what he was being asked both times. That is why the answers are basically the same.

[Xoduz]

In my view it's rather crazy to believe that RJ wanted to tell us in those quotes - in a convoluted way - that Taim is actually a Darkfriend and wanted to join Rahvin, when Taim's affiliation was always (at least till the end of KoD) a big RAFO. Why should RJ do that?
First, Taim for those who were right at the time, was outted in TPOD. Kisman was proof enough for me.

Second, RJ's response IS hazy for that exact reason. He has NEVER wanted to reveal Taim's agenda until he thought the timing was right for storytelling reasons.

[Dragon]

As said, looking at other Q&A by RJ it makes more sense that he made a little mistake regarding Andor and Caemlyn, than that he indirectly wanted to give away that Taim is a DF. Especially before the big bang ending of KoD, where Taim cites the Shadow's famous mantra.

[The Immortal One]

A quick question - how long do you think it would take a man, trying to hide who and where he is, to travel from Saldaea to Andor? It's quite a long way.

Then again, when/where did he escape the Aes Sedai who had captured him? Were they already half way to the Tower or were they still in Saldaea?

[Terez]

@Xodus

This and the other quote make unambiguously clear that RJ is simply talking about Rand's amnesty. I really don't see how one can understand it otherwise. I do see how they could understand it otherwise - RJ's answer does leave loopholes and the misspeak adds to those. But judging from the way RJ generally answers interview questions and the fact that we know from the books he was being chased by Bashere and he had nowhere else to run, and that he came into Caemlyn not long after the amnesty was announced, and probably had a hard enough time doing that, it's pretty clear that no other motive is needed to explain Taim's movements at all. The motive behind the questions I believe had something to do with Asmodean, and I know Asmodean is really important to some people, but for me, it's enough to know that Taim was chased by Bashere into Andor and lured into Caemlyn by Rand. If he was planning on going to Rahvin, I really don't give a shit, cause Rahvin's dead anyway - and there, all the evidence points toward Taim being Ishamael/Moridin's pet...that should be especially clear after Knife of Dreams. I think he was all along (just because Ishamael had to be up to something in the years before the others were released) and Ishamael was behind Taim's proclaiming. Ishamael was indisposed and distracted when Taim got captured, and by the time Taim escaped the Aes Sedai, Ishamael was dead, so Taim had little choice but to run from Bashere, and by the time Moridin appeared, Taim had done enough to earn himself a pat on the back.

Dragon, are you one of those Taim-is-a-new-Forsaken people? And...Wotmania, or Dragonmount?

[Dragon]

The thing is, Xodus' interpretation of these quotes would mean that after Taim was freed he heard that Rahvin gathers DF near Caemlyn; this would be his "one safe haven in the world" (though why not join Sammael?).

Of course, then Rahvin died, and it was announced by Rand that he gathers male channelers near Caemlyn, where Taim enlisted and actually found another safe haven to protect him of AS (though there should be only one safe haven, according to RJ, which means he made a mistake one way or another).

So, either two similar things happened in the books (i.e. Taim heard two times of men gathering near Caemlyn, etc.) - of course, we never had any indication in the books of Rahvin gathering DF near Caemlyn and Taim wanting to join them.

Or, RJ simply meant Taim's joining of Rand because of the amnesty. That way RJ also wouldn't give away that Taim is a DF.

I understand the desire to find little gems in RJ's statements, but here it's obvious that RJ likely just made a little mistake concerning Andor & Caemlyn or the timeline in general, and certainly didn't want to indicate that Taim is a DF.

To conclude from this that Taim wanted to join Rahvin is, in my eyes, as wrong as claiming that another woman similar to Graendal was seen at the Cleansing, but not Graendal herself (like RJ wrongly stated).

As for Taim, I think he is a DF and was most likely trained by Ishamael some time ago. If he has already Forsaken status (i.e. received the Forsaken mark, for example) seems a bit doubtful, IMO, considering RJ's words about the relationship between the DO and the original Forsaken, but not totally impossible.

[Sodas]

The thing is, Xodus' interpretation of these quotes would mean that after Taim was freed he heard that Rahvin gathers DF near Caemlyn; this would be his "one safe haven in the world" (though why not join Sammael?).
No. My interpretation means when Taim was freed he heard that Lord Gaebril provided safety against Aes Sedai.

I do NOT interpretate that Rahvin declared himself to be in Caemlyn and recruiting Darkfriends.

Please, do not put words in my mouth. Better yet, perhaps you should try not to paraphrase me until you understand my argument.

[Terez]

He didn't paraphrase you - he used RJ's words. Or at least, the gist of what he was getting at centered on RJ's words. I doubt he cares much about the distinction that you're making. Though that could be putting words in his mouth. :)

[Dragon]

Well, then your view also makes no sense with RJ saying that Taim thought there were men just like him (DF, in your opinion, or men that fear AS, or what?) When did Lord Gaebril proclaim any shelter? Who came to gather there?

Frankly, you should accept that your interpretation of those quotes is completely absurd and definitely wrong.

It's probably simply a little mistake by RJ. After all, he also says in one of those quotes about Taim: "He is a men who can channel.

Hmm.., does that mean Taim is a combo like Isam/Luc?!
It's as crazy as your idea..

[Terez]

Frankly, you should accept that your interpretation of those quotes is completely absurd and definitely wrong.
How do you go from these words to these?
It's probably simply a little mistake by RJ.
Is it definitely or is it probably? I'd say probably...even as strong as "most likely", but using "definitely" here is just wrong, because RJ did leave loopholes and he did misspeak.

[GonzoTheGreat]

My interpretation means when Taim was freed he heard that Lord Gaebril provided safety against Aes Sedai.
And what possible guarantees could Lord Gaebril offer?
Rahvin could get rid of obnoxious Aes Sedai, true. But he was trying to hide his real identity, and thus could not afford to show that he was capable of eliminating AS hunting parties. This would mean that if such a party did show up and wanted to take Taim, then there is at least a fair chance that Gaebril would have let them.
Not the kind of chance I would take, if I had been a channeling DF False Dragon on the run.

On the other hand, if it was Rand's amnesty he had heard about, then betting on AS not being allowed to drag him off would be a lot safer. If Rand accepted him as one of those men, then he would not be too likely to change his mind when Elaida asked him to.

[Dragon]

Well, the view that RJ told us that Taim wanted to enlist with Rahvin is definitely wrong.

It was probably a mistake by RJ, but - as I think Enigma pointed out - maybe Taim did already cross Andor and entered another country at this time, so that he later returned to Andor after hearing of the amnesty. Then RJ's words would fit as well.

[Terez]

Well, the view that RJ told us that Taim wanted to enlist with Rahvin is definitely wrong.
You can't say that, though, because there's a possible implication of it. An arguably unlikely implication, but it's still there.

[Dragon]

Yeah, heck, then with "with a probability bordering on certainty" wrong. ;)

[Terez]

That's much better. :)

[Sodas]

Well Gonzo, it was THE only choice. Jordan makes the point that running forever really wasn't an option. Aes Sedai eyes and ears cover the entire Wetlands, he would be found eventually.

The rest is speculation of course. I ask myself why couldn't Rahvin have sent the party to spring Taim from Aes Sedai, and in doing so, convince Taim to join the Dark? I find that fitting easily with what Jordan actually said. There is no evidence, of course, but it's certainly possible.

As far as actually protecting him from Aes Sedai? Why not? He as King would have the right to stop any Aes Sedai from even entering the palace. Afterall, he did stop Bashere from entering the palace as well.

Also, remember one other point.

Taim did know about Amnesty. But he didn't know Rand was gathering other men. If you believe RJ mispoke, and ment Taim was seeking out other male channelers seeking protection from Aes Sedai, then you have to explain why RJ also mispoke about gathering others.

[Terez]

Why wouldn't he know Rand was gathering others? The amnesty was announced publicly...why would Taim think he was the only one coming for it? It would be rather stupid for him to think so.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Well, we know that palaces are not really AS proof. After all, one of Cadsuane's feats was taking a king from out of his own palace.
Furthermore, Gaebril was only king for a very short while. When he was, it was flying in the face of a thousand years of tradition, so his rule wouldn't have seemed all that stable at first. That does not inspire confidence that he can do what you say.

I think that RJ misspoke, that he had forgotten that Rand only brought his amnesty into the open when Taim arrived. If RJ thought that the amnesty was already public knowledge from the moment that Rand started gathering men at the farm, then that would increase the time that Taim had to hear about it.

Rand was already gathering men who could be taught to channel before Taim arrived. He just did not know how to test them, he had no time to train them, and he hadn't announced it. If RJ forgot about that last little detail, then that would be enough to explain the quote.

[Terez]

Rand was already gathering men who could be taught to channel before Taim arrived. He just did not know how to test them, he had no time to train them, and he hadn't announced it.
He had announced it, though. He didn't announce how many had shown up, but RJ's quote suggests that Taim only hoped there were enough of them, so that fits.

[Sodas]

Because he is shocked when Rand tells him that he has recruited others. Taim had no clue about the Farm.

[Terez]

I wouldn't say he was shocked at all. Just trying to get Rand to give him more details, while being as contemptuous as possible in the process. :)

[Sodas]

I'll grab his reaction quote tommorrow. But here is another from the same scene Taim describing Rand singularly, and without mention of "other men like him" chasing him down (but mentioning the Aiel women)
"What are my choices? To wander the world alone, friendless, hunted, while you rise to glory? That's supposing Bashere doesn't manage to kill me before I can leave the city, or your Aiel women don't. Even if they don't, the Aes Sedai will corner me sooner or later; I doubt the Tower means to forget Mazrim Taim."

[Terez]

I'll grab his reaction quote tommorrow.
What for? I know what it says:
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 2 - A New Arrival

"You may find honors, Taim, and you may not. If you begin to fret over them, think what happened to the others who’ve done what you did. Logain, captured and gentled; rumor says he died in the Tower. A nameless fellow beheaded in Haddon Mirk by the Tairens. Another burned by the Murandians. Burned alive, Taim! That’s what the Illianers did to Gorin Rogad four years ago, as well."

"Not a fate I would embrace," Taim said levelly.

"Then forget honors and remember the Last Battle. Everything I do is aimed at Tarmon Gai’don. Everything I tell you to do will be aimed at it. You will aim at it!"

"Of course." Taim spread his hands. "You are the Dragon Reborn. I don’t doubt that; I acknowledge it publicly. We march toward Tarmon Gai’don. Which the Prophecies say you will win. And the histories will say that Mazrim Taim stood at your right hand."

"Perhaps," Rand told him curtly. He had lived too many prophecies to believe any of them meant exactly what they said. Or even that they insured anything. In his opinion, prophecy set the conditions that had to be met for a thing to happen; only, meeting them did not mean the thing would happen, just that it could. Some of the conditions set in the Prophecies of the Dragon more than implied that he had to die for any chance at victory. Thinking of that did nothing for his temper. "The Light send your chance doesn’t come too soon. Now. What knowledge do you have that I need? Can you teach men to channel? Can you test a man to know whether he can be taught?" Unlike women, one man who could channel could not simply sense the ability in another. There was as much different between men and women with the One Power as there was between men and women; sometimes it was a matter of hair-fine degree, sometimes stone versus silk.

"Your amnesty? Some fools have actually shown up to learn how to be like you and me?"

Bashere only stared at Taim contemptuously, arms folded and boots spread apart, but Tumad and the guards shifted uneasily. The Maidens did not. Rand had no idea how the Maidens felt about the score of men who had answered his call; they never gave any sign. With the memory of Taim as a false Dragon strong in their heads, few of the Saldaeans could hide their ill ease.

"Just answer me, Taim. If you can do what I want, say so. If not... " That was the anger talking. He could not send the man away, not if every day was a struggle with him. Taim seemed to think he would, though.

"I can do both," he said quickly. "I have found five over the years – not that I was really looking – but only one had the courage to go beyond the testing." He hesitated, then added, "He went mad after two years. I had to kill him before he killed me."
And as for the bit you provided...notice how similar his words are to those RJ used in both interview quotes? Here's some more context for your bit, up to the beginning of the bit I already quoted:
Taim shrugged. "What are my choices? To wander the world alone, friendless, hunted, while you rise to glory? That’s supposing Bashere doesn’t manage to kill me before I can leave the city, or your Aiel women don’t. Even if they don’t, the Aes Sedai will corner me sooner or later; I doubt the Tower means to forget Mazrim Taim. Or I can follow you, and part of that glory will be mine." For the first time he looked around, at his guards, at the Maidens, and shook his head as if he could not believe it. "I might have been the one. How could I be sure otherwise? I can channel; I’m strong. What said I was not the Dragon Reborn? All I had to do was fulfill just one of the Prophecies."

"Like managing to be born on the slopes of Dragonmount?" Rand said coldly. "That was the first Prophecy to be met."

Taim’s mouth quirked again. It really was not a smile; it never touched his eyes. "Victors write history. Had I taken the Stone of Tear, history would have shown I was born on Dragonmount, of a woman never touched by a man, and the heavens opened up in radiance to herald my coming. The sort of thing they say about you, now. But you took the Stone with your Aiel, and the world hails you as the Dragon Reborn. I know better than to stand against that; you are the one. Well, since the whole loaf won’t be mine, I will settle for whatever slices fall my way."

[Dragon]

Since this first meeting between Rand and Taim is told from Rand's PoV, we don't know if Taim was truly ignorant that Rand had already gathered some other male channelers, as his questions ("Your amnesty? Some fools have actually shown up to learn how to be like you and me") might indicate.

It could simply be rhetorical questions, or - even more likely - an attempt by Taim to belittle the other male channelers who likely aren't as powerful as he is. Through these questions Taim maybe tries to show that he doesn't really care if there are others.

However, RJ's quotes shine a bit different light on Taim's knowledge, namely that he probably already heard that Rand had gathered some other male channelers and thus considered that it likely would be a safe haven then.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Well, at the very least, it does tell me that I was wrong on one count: Rand's amnesty was already known before Taim showed up. That does strengthen the idea that it was this amnesty which made Taim head for Caemlyn.

Edited to add:
According to the WOT Chronology, on day 547 Rand announced his amnesty, first to Davram Bashere, to prevent him from taking out Taim. On day 584 Taim arrives in Caemlyn and is recruited to be teacher at the farm. Those 37 days do seem to give plenty of time for word of the amnesty to spread, and then for Taim to react to it and make his way to Rand. On day 554, just 7 days after the announcement, the amnesty is already known in Salidar.

[Isabel]

To make things clear:
RJ was asked this question twice and twice he answered exactly the same.

[Weird Harold]

Since this first meeting between Rand and Taim is told from Rand's PoV, we don't know if Taim was truly ignorant that Rand had already gathered some other male channelers, as his questions ("Your amnesty? Some fools have actually shown up to learn how to be like you and me") might indicate.

It could simply be rhetorical questions, or - even more likely - an attempt by Taim to belittle the other male channelers who likely aren't as powerful as he is. Through these questions Taim maybe tries to show that he doesn't really care if there are others.

However, RJ's quotes shine a bit different light on Taim's knowledge, namely that he probably already heard that Rand had gathered some other male channelers and thus considered that it likely would be a safe haven then.
Not a rhetorical question, but surprise that anyone who needed to be taught responded.

To make things clear:
RJ was asked this question twice and twice he answered exactly the same.

The problem is that he didn't exactly answer the question asked but apparently gave a canned response to the key words Taim and Andor/Caemlyn.

It would probably be more accurate if he had said "Taim headed for Andor after his escape because it was between him and cosmopolitan lands where his face wasn't as well known and Saldean traders weren't uncommon. When he heard about Rand's Amnesty, he headed for Caemlyn."

That's the scenario that most people seem to accept RJ's explanantion to mean, but that's NOT what he said.

RJ didn't say that anyone was "gathering" "men like him," He said men like him were gathering." That could be DFs or it could be Male Channelers, but it does NOT say or imply that either Rand or Rahvin were behind the rumors or those "men like him gathering."

Taim is the kind of person who would seek out any gathering of rebels/DFs/Male channelers, Enlist 'with honeyed tongue'; and immediately set about subverting whatever chain of command was in place to put himself at the top.

Not only is there safety in numbers even for non-channelers against AS, Taim strikes me as someone who has to have the recognition of others to validate his own self-image -- he can't function as a lone rogue.

I'd have to examine the clues to the development of Taim's clique inside the BT, but IIRC, he recruited a core group of strong, competent henchmen fairly quickly -- almost as if he had a ready-made cadre of channeling DF's someplace close by?

[Sodas]

I'm sure some will say that he attracted so many by way of Rand's Ta'varen pull on the Pattern.

In related news, Rand's Ta'varen strength is NOT blamed for Taim's arrival in Caemlyn. Nor did Jordan mention a pull to Rand or the Pattern ...:confused:

[Weird Harold]

I'm sure some will say that he attracted so many by way of Rand's Ta'varen pull on the Pattern.

In related news, Rand's Ta'varen strength is NOT blamed for Taim's arrival in Caemlyn. Nor did Jordan mention a pull to Rand or the Pattern ...:confused:
Well, in a way...

Rand was responsible for Taim being captured in the first place but I'm not sure spooking Taim's horse by appearing in a "word-wide cloud vision death-match" with Ba'alzamon is ta'veren effect or not. :D

[Sodas]

I think what I will miss most about Jordan was his ability to toy with us as an audience. He really did enjoy watching us squirm over Taimdread and Asmodean.

I went by the bookstore which was the last stop on Jordan's KOD tour yesterday, and couldn't help but be reminded of the last time I saw him and this very topic.