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Birgitte
04-28-2010, 12:26 AM
A friend of a friend wrote this poem and published it online. It's pretty interesting, so I decided to inflict it on the rest of you.:)

http://www.taylormali.com/index.cfm?webid=21

Totally like whatever, you know?
By Taylor Mali
www.taylormali.com

In case you hadn't noticed,
it has somehow become uncool
to sound like you know what you're talking about?
Or believe strongly in what you're saying?
Invisible question marks and parenthetical (you know?)'s
have been attaching themselves to the ends of our sentences?
Even when those sentences aren't, like, questions? You know?

Declarative sentences - so-called
because they used to, like, DECLARE things to be true
as opposed to other things which were, like, not -
have been infected by a totally hip
and tragically cool interrogative tone? You know?
Like, don't think I'm uncool just because I've noticed this;
this is just like the word on the street, you know?
It's like what I've heard?
I have nothing personally invested in my own opinions, okay?
I'm just inviting you to join me in my uncertainty?

What has happened to our conviction?
Where are the limbs out on which we once walked?
Have they been, like, chopped down
with the rest of the rain forest?
Or do we have, like, nothing to say?
Has society become so, like, totally . . .
I mean absolutely . . . You know?
That we've just gotten to the point where it's just, like . . .
whatever!

And so actually our disarticulation . . . ness
is just a clever sort of . . . thing
to disguise the fact that we've become
the most aggressively inarticulate generation
to come along since . . .
you know, a long, long time ago!

I entreat you, I implore you, I exhort you,
I challenge you: To speak with conviction.
To say what you believe in a manner that bespeaks
the determination with which you believe it.
Because contrary to the wisdom of the bumper sticker,
it is not enough these days to simply QUESTION AUTHORITY.
You have to speak with it, too.


Okay. It's not really a problem here so much as it is something I notice a LOT around me. But I was interested in hearing ya'll's thoughts on it anyway.

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2010, 03:36 AM
Meh. Britney already did that over 10 years ago.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-28-2010, 05:52 AM
Welcome to the 20th century (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism)

Postmodernism is a tendency in contemporary culture characterized by the rejection of objective truth and global cultural narrative. It emphasizes the role of language, power relations, and motivations; in particular it attacks the use of sharp classifications such as male versus female, straight versus gay, white versus black, and imperial versus colonial. Postmodernism has influenced many cultural fields, including literary criticism, linguistics, architecture, visual arts, and music.

in other words, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Everyone is right even when they're wrong.

apparently scientific thought does eventually end up in social behaviour. And yes, scientists have been getting increasingly annoyed with postmodernism in the last 20-30 years. New paradigm coming up... only question is, what will it be?

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2010, 05:55 AM
Well, that one is obvious (http://www.prometheus6.org/node/26388).

Ivhon
04-28-2010, 07:08 AM
One of my classes this semester happens to be very heavy in recent graduates (i.e. early/mid 20's crowd). This is a counseling program and Im absolutely baffled as to how these people think they can be effective therapists when they are smacking their gum and talking like that? Maybe if they, like, whatever, only see clients under like 25?

The other thing they do is draw out their vowels to absurd lengths "uhhhmm, seeeeewwww, Iiii waslike thiinkiiiiiing? *smack gum* I have this freeehhhnd? Who like, has anor-exiaaaaaa? Seeeew, Im like, really interesteeeeehd? Seeew, I thought I'd like, dew my presentation on thaaaat?"

Oh and related annoying tv quote of the day: "Don't forget the good student discount!"

Mort
04-28-2010, 07:16 AM
Once, many years ago, someone probably complained about the language that is seen as "normal" today.

Thoughts and ideas are ever changing. Language is the tool for expressing those thoughts, so naturally Language will change too.

We just have to learn to roll with it ;)

Edit: Oh and Gonzo, I can't get your link to work. Seems to be a server issue.

Oatman
04-28-2010, 08:10 AM
Once, many years ago, someone probably complained about the language that is seen as "normal" today.

I constantly complain about this now.

Thoughts and idea's are ever changing, however the direction language is going leads to the exclusion of thoughts and idea's.
I guess in the sense that this language essentially expresses nothing, it is a good reflection of the thoughts and idea's of its speakers.
I avoid communicating with this type of person as much as I can. When I am forced to, I usually end up correcting them and mocking them, which never ends well.

Ivhon
04-28-2010, 08:22 AM
I also think that as one becomes an adult, one begins to speak like an adult. Part of the frustration comes from the age of adulthood getting progressively older.

I was just thinking back and I suppose I spent much of my undergrad years speaking in movie-quotes and "duuuude, sweeeet" vacuosity. So maybe I can't blame these kids too much. Unless they dont pull themselves together quick. :D

GonzoTheGreat
04-28-2010, 08:31 AM
Edit: Oh and Gonzo, I can't get your link to work. Seems to be a server issue.It works for me, for some reason. I can quote the relevant part, but I would prefer not to spoil the surprise.

Brita
04-28-2010, 09:13 AM
Well, that one is obvious (http://www.prometheus6.org/node/26388).

Ha! That is so funny. I just listened to a radio program about this....new movement.

Mort
04-28-2010, 09:53 AM
It works for me, for some reason. I can quote the relevant part, but I would prefer not to spoil the surprise.

I get a: " 403 Forbidden. You do not have permission to access ...." message. Dunno what I do wrong :)

Birgitte
04-28-2010, 06:13 PM
in other words, there is no such thing as absolute truth. Everyone is right even when they're wrong.

apparently scientific thought does eventually end up in social behaviour. And yes, scientists have been getting increasingly annoyed with postmodernism in the last 20-30 years. New paradigm coming up... only question is, what will it be?

We had a debate on absolute truth in my Introduction to Literary Theory class when my professor was teaching Structuralism. My professor lost that debate. Turns out when you try to tell a room full of semi-intelligent college students just because not everyone would label a desk the same way, it doesn't exist, you just look like an idiot. Though, to be fair, it could be her stupid refusal to understand that we were saying there's a difference between the words used to describe something and the concept behind it.

One of my classes this semester happens to be very heavy in recent graduates (i.e. early/mid 20's crowd). This is a counseling program and Im absolutely baffled as to how these people think they can be effective therapists when they are smacking their gum and talking like that? Maybe if they, like, whatever, only see clients under like 25?

Nope. It annoys everyone I associate with at school (most of whom are under 25). My friend that linked me to the poem is so annoyed by her one professor that does it that she counted how many times her professor misused the word "like" in an hour (140 times. She used it correctly 14 times.). And it is genuinely frustrating to ask a professor a question and get a nothing answer or an "I don't know." "Really? Why are we paying you again?"

Once, many years ago, someone probably complained about the language that is seen as "normal" today.

Thoughts and ideas are ever changing. Language is the tool for expressing those thoughts, so naturally Language will change too.

My problem is that it's not expressing thought so much as the lack thereof.

I constantly complain about this now.

Thoughts and idea's are ever changing, however the direction language is going leads to the exclusion of thoughts and idea's.
I guess in the sense that this language essentially expresses nothing, it is a good reflection of the thoughts and idea's of its speakers.
I avoid communicating with this type of person as much as I can. When I am forced to, I usually end up correcting them and mocking them, which never ends well.

Agreed.

irerancincpkc
04-28-2010, 07:16 PM
My senior year, my english teacher, a man who was in his fifties, had all his gifted classes write a big essay in, as he put it, text/im language. His point was language was always evolving, and he loved it, thought it was exciting. And this was a conservative farmer on the side who still hasn't used a cell up to this day. He would tell me how he would get into such large fights over the evolution of language with the other english teachers, but he was sure it was a great thing to behold.
..

Oatman
04-28-2010, 09:52 PM
My senior year, my english teacher, a man who was in his fifties, had all his gifted classes write a big essay in, as he put it, text/im language. His point was language was always evolving, and he loved it, thought it was exciting. And this was a conservative farmer on the side who still hasn't used a cell up to this day. He would tell me how he would get into such large fights over the evolution of language with the other english teachers, but he was sure it was a great thing to behold.

If I have a perfectly good steak, which I then proceed to chew up, spit out, and take a huge shit on it, the steak has not 'evolved', it has been chewed up, spat out, and shat upon.

yks 6nnetu hing
04-29-2010, 01:45 AM
We had a debate on absolute truth in my Introduction to Literary Theory class when my professor was teaching Structuralism. My professor lost that debate. Turns out when you try to tell a room full of semi-intelligent college students just because not everyone would label a desk the same way, it doesn't exist, you just look like an idiot. Though, to be fair, it could be her stupid refusal to understand that we were saying there's a difference between the words used to describe something and the concept behind it.

eh. I think we are talking about different things. I was referring more to the social, linguistic and historical post-modernism. i.e. no-one's beliefs are 100% TRUE yet they are true for them. or in history: whether something happened or not is up for debate. Also the reasons why it might or might not have happened. in language: is there really one solid set of rules for language? and if so, doesn't it mean that the language never changes = is dead?

English is a good example. On the one hand it is the lingua franca of our planet. More and more people learn it as a secondary language and as a result of that, more and more learn it as a primary language. However, because the amount of language users is so vast, English is breaking into local dialects. For me the really interesting question is, when do we start calling these dialects separate languages? I'm sure linguists can answer that better in quantitative terms, I'm just interested in the temporal.

GonzoTheGreat
04-29-2010, 04:24 AM
I get a: " 403 Forbidden. You do not have permission to access ...." message. Dunno what I do wrong :)You probably use your right hand to control your mouse. For this link, you should try it left handed.

The title of the article to which I tried to supply a link is "Ultimately, the hip hop paradigm will infuse the world's infrastructure, as everything Black does".

irerancincpkc
04-29-2010, 06:37 AM
If I have a perfectly good steak, which I then proceed to chew up, spit out, and take a huge shit on it, the steak has not 'evolved', it has been chewed up, spat out, and shat upon.

You are assuming that the change isn't good. ;)

I'm sure similar analogies were made in the twenties (or whenever it really happened)when people stopped saying thy and subbed in the... :rolleyes:

Birgitte
04-30-2010, 12:08 AM
eh. I think we are talking about different things. I was referring more to the social, linguistic and historical post-modernism. i.e. no-one's beliefs are 100% TRUE yet they are true for them. or in history: whether something happened or not is up for debate. Also the reasons why it might or might not have happened. in language: is there really one solid set of rules for language? and if so, doesn't it mean that the language never changes = is dead?

No, there isn't a solid set of rules for language, not for English anyway. There are literally dozens of stylebooks that change the rules based on where the piece of writing is published.

But that's not really the point of the poem. The problem is that people hedge around the point. People don't stand for anything. It's not even that people are accepting that they could be wrong. It goes beyond that into the realm of just not bothering to think what you say through enough to be confident that it makes sense. THAT's what I have a problem with. It's that what people say indicate that they aren't really thinking things through and they're just looking for whoever they're talking to to do their thinking for them by asking if they know and making everything a question.

GonzoTheGreat
04-30-2010, 02:53 AM
"Are you agnostic or apathic?"
"I don't know and I don't care."

Oatman
04-30-2010, 04:29 AM
Gonzo, that was great.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-03-2010, 03:12 AM
No, there isn't a solid set of rules for language, not for English anyway. There are literally dozens of stylebooks that change the rules based on where the piece of writing is published.

But that's not really the point of the poem. The problem is that people hedge around the point. People don't stand for anything. It's not even that people are accepting that they could be wrong. It goes beyond that into the realm of just not bothering to think what you say through enough to be confident that it makes sense. THAT's what I have a problem with. It's that what people say indicate that they aren't really thinking things through and they're just looking for whoever they're talking to to do their thinking for them by asking if they know and making everything a question.

ah. then we were talking about the same thing after all. You know, though, knowing for sure what one believes in has usually ended with bloodshed, so I'm not that sure it's actually a 100% Good Thing.

For me personally, soul-searching became largely pointless after being immersed in the works of the Existentialists, followed by the Realists of the late 19th and early 20th century. You know... "Seeing as it's all meaningless anyway, might as well enjoy this lovely sunny afternoon before it starts raining" Also that's probably part of the reason why I'm so into escapism via Fantasy.

Terez
05-03-2010, 05:54 AM
TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 30 - To Heal Again

The lanky girl bobbed a nervous curtsy, but Lucilde was always nervous. "Delana Sedai? A woman arrived this morning, and Anaiya Sedai said I should bring her to you? Her nameís Halima Saranov? She says she knows you?"

Delana opened her mouth to say that she had never heard of any Halima Saranov, and a woman appeared in the doorway. Delana stared in spite of herself. The woman managed to be slender and lush at the same time, and wore a dark gray riding dress cut ridiculously low; long lustrous black hair framed a green-eyed face that probably made every man who glimpsed it gape. That was not why Delana stared, of course. The woman held her hands at her sides, but with thumbs thrust hard between the first two fingers. Delana had never expected to see that from any woman who did not wear the shawl, and this Halima Saranov could not even channel. She was close enough to be sure of that.

"Yes," Delana said, "it seems to me I do remember. Leave us, Lucilde. And, child, do try to remember that every sentence isnít a question." Lucilde bobbed a curtsy so quick and deep that she nearly fell. Under other circumstances, Delana would have sighed; she had never done well with novices, though she could not understand why.
Incidentally, it bothers me a great deal more when people write questions without question marks.

Belazamon
05-03-2010, 01:02 PM
Incidentally, it bothers me a great deal more when people write questions without question marks.
Why is that, do you think.


:D