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greatwolf
05-02-2010, 02:53 PM
I hope I can get this question answered somehow 'cos I think I'm missing something somewhere.

RJ said in an interview quote that the soul cannot be split. But the current goings on between Rand and Moridin (and LT as far as I'm concerned) might suggest that the soul of both Rand and Moridin are present in two bodies at once.

So what am I missing?

It shouldn't really rate a thread, but I didn't want to go hijacking anything in case the answers go off on a tangent. My apologies in advance if I do not reply in a timely manner.

Belazamon
05-02-2010, 02:56 PM
That doesn't mean they're split. I guess you could think of them as being "stretched." Or cohabitating. Or something.

heridfel
05-02-2010, 03:15 PM
I think of it as being a connection between souls, but both souls are still seated firmly in their respective bodies. Think of it as the souls being networked together so they can communicate, and LTT could never have been a separate soul, he was one incarnation of the dragon soul of which Rand is the latest. The personality comes from a combination of experience and memories (read nurture) and soul predisposition (read nature) because the memory wall broke down and LTT's memories became availiable to Rand they manifested as a personality because all the ingredients were there. Most people believe that at the end of TGS Rand was able to realize the nature of the memories, and incorporate them into his own personality, thus curing his MPD... Others believe that LTT will persist as a personality. But no matter what you believe there was never a possibility of LTT having a separate soul.

Weird Harold
05-02-2010, 03:46 PM
But the current goings on between Rand and Moridin (and LT as far as I'm concerned) might suggest that the soul of both Rand and Moridin are present in two bodies at once.

If anything, Moridin and Rand's souls are merging rather than splitting.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2010, 04:50 AM
Maybe they are just soul mates.

Bryan Blaire
05-04-2010, 07:34 PM
Two and a Half Souls. :D

ShadowbaneX
05-04-2010, 11:37 PM
Two and a Half Souls. :D
if we had neg rep you'd so be getting some for that...

greatwolf
05-05-2010, 11:28 AM
I think of it as being a connection between souls, but both souls are still seated firmly in their respective bodies.


You seem to be saying that most of each soul remains in its original body but has a small connection extending into the other body. WH seems to think the souls are merging, that could be regarded as a connection as well.

The picture I get from you is that of an amoeba like subtance starting to spill over into another cannister. Because the amoeba is still a single, whole entity it is not technically split. So correct me if this isn't what you mean.

However, it is clearly unnatural for a soul to inhabit two bodies at once. Secondly just what kind of extension into the other body is occuring? I would have thought that what RJ meant by saying the soul can't be split is that the all or none rule applies. Either the soul is there and whole, or it isn't, since an incomplete soul should not be able to function.

If a portion of the soul and not the whole is in another body, what aspect is it? The personality? In which case, the primary host body would be deprived of its personality. Or memories. Or whatever aspect. Unless that aspect is duplicated, its presence in a new body should mean absence in the primary host body.

Unless of course, the soul in WoT world is not limited to a body and can exist in multiple
bodies simultaneously, a kind of omniprescence.

I think we need some clarification here.

Most people believe that at the end


Just to be nitty: did you take a census among wot fans across the globe or just tossed that in?:)



[/QUOTE=heridfel] But no matter what you believe there was never a possibility of LTT having a separate soul.[/QUOTE]


Actually, its has to be LTT's soul wouldn't it? Rather than Rand's, i mean, but am just be nitty again.


I guess you could think of them as being "stretched." Or cohabitating. Or something

:D


If anything, Moridin and Rand's souls are merging rather than splitting


They could be, but even if they actually merge into a single entity (yuck!), how would one soul straddle and control two bodies in two separate physical locations?

Right now though, we don't know how much the souls have merged if at all. It may be for instance, that the proximity of the souls to each other has created a tendency for them to behave alike and think alike rather than an actual merging. Just sayin.

Yet the question still remains how the two souls manage to be in contact across whatever distance their host bodies have between them.


Do they have bits and pieces of the souls flowing across to each other irrespective of the distance? Are they losing part of their souls to the other guy? Or are the two souls simultaneously pesent in both bodies?

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2010, 11:37 AM
Yet the question still remains how the two souls manage to be in contact across whatever distance their host bodies have between them.No distance is needed.
Instead of the joke at her expense she more than half-expected, he took the end of her shawl in both hands. "The Pattern," he said. "Caemlyn," one finger on his left hand tented the wool, "and Cairhien." A finger on the other hand made a tent, and he brought the two tents together. "I bend the Pattern and bore a hole from one to the other. I don’t know what I bore through, but there’s no space between one end of the hole and the other." He let the shawl drop. "Does that help?"

greatwolf
05-05-2010, 11:39 AM
No distance is needed.

:confused:

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2010, 11:46 AM
Oh, I don't think that is how it will work out. I just wanted to point out that the problem isn't as simple as you were assuming it was.
Using worm holes (gateways) seriously messes up the meaning of "shortest distance between two points".

Weird Harold
05-05-2010, 04:21 PM
If anything, Moridin and Rand's souls are merging rather than splitting
They could be, ...

Actually, you ingored the qualifier -- no they couldn't be merging or splitting; souls don't work that way.

IF THE IMPOSSIBLE WERE HAPPENING, the symptoms of shared dreams and sensations cannot in any way be described as a split, but could be described as a merger, which of course can't be happening so any further disussion of splitting or mergin is pointless.

There is obviously some connection between Rand and Moridin that is causing sharing of information and sensation, but warders and their bondholder share emotion and sensation too and their souls remain separate.

greatwolf
05-06-2010, 10:39 AM
Actually, you ingored the qualifier -- no they couldn't be merging or splitting; souls don't work that way.

IF THE IMPOSSIBLE WERE HAPPENING, the symptoms of shared dreams and sensations cannot in any way be described as a split, but could be described as a merger, which of course can't be happening so any further disussion of splitting or mergin is pointless.

There is obviously some connection between Rand and Moridin that is causing sharing of information and sensation, but warders and their bondholder share emotion and sensation too and their souls remain separate.


I didn't ignore it, read the post. I think it depends on the context. When RJ said souls can't be split, he may have been referring to the aspects of the soul or its integrity. Or may have been talking of the rules - how things are supposed to work as opposed to when the impossible occurs. Can't say.

But your post seems more a defence of a position than actualling an attempt to answer a question. Can we determine how the connection works? Is there a part of Rand's soul in moridin's body and vice versa or are both souls present in both bodies simultaneously?

I just wanted to point out that the problem isn't as simple as you were assuming it was.

What's wrong with simplifing things?

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2010, 11:28 AM
What's wrong with simplifing things?As Einstein once said: "Keep it simple. As simple as possible, but no simpler."

Usually, you can assume that physical distance between two people precludes their being one and the same, but with gateways that simple assumption is no longer necessarily valid.

Of course, having an open gateway embedded in the back of your head might be a bit dangerous. But there are a few characters in the series who wouldn't be fazed by that, if the test subjects were Moridin and Rand.

greatwolf
05-07-2010, 10:30 AM
Usually, you can assume that physical distance between two people precludes their being one and the same, but with gateways that simple assumption is no longer necessarily valid.


I've even seen arguements that the soul is in a different dimesion where time and distance operate differently to that of the physical world. But I'm not making any assumptions in this.

Does a soul even have to be split to occupy more than one body at a time. Slayer and Fain seem to be proof that there's room for more than one soul in most heads. And we've even seen bodies without souls. But are there any with only a part of the soul? Or one body three souls?

The soul remains the same age after age. So any merger/split in this age will probably not hold in the next age. Whatever happened here is probably unnatural to the pattern.

Weird Harold
05-07-2010, 06:21 PM
But your post seems more a defence of a position than actualling an attempt to answer a question. Can we determine how the connection works?

Eliminating wrong answers is as important as finding the right answer -- especially for unanswerable questions.

greatwolf
05-10-2010, 08:48 AM
Eliminating wrong answers is as important as finding the right answer -- especially for unanswerable questions.

Unanswerable? Ever been to TL?

GonzoTheGreat
05-10-2010, 08:54 AM
Unanswerable? Ever been to TL?I can't answer that, obviously. :p

Weird Harold
05-10-2010, 03:10 PM
Unanswerable? Ever been to TL?

Don't confuse unanswerable with imponderable. :D We ponder a great many things that are unaswerable.

Spasmodean
05-12-2010, 07:05 PM
Since we've been fed the 3 must be as one line, cut one leg of the tripod and you get swirly colours dealy, would it not make more sense for Rand, Mat, and Perrin to be "merging"?

greatwolf
05-20-2010, 06:08 AM
Since we've been fed the 3 must be as one line, cut one leg of the tripod and you get swirly colours dealy, would it not make more sense for Rand, Mat, and Perrin to be "merging"?


Was the quote "must merge" I don't have the books here. I was thinking of why they would need to merge. Maybe I should go over the top and suggest that LT's soul could be split or universally present among the three boys, meaning Mat could have picked up callandor :)

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 06:22 AM
It seems a bit unlikely that it refers to Mat, Perrin and Rand. Of course, I'm not entirely sure how good Min is at counting, which is a rather crucial factor in my disbelief here.
She folded her arms and frowned up at him through her lashes. She chewed her lip and frowned at the door. She shook her head and muttered under her breath. At last she said, "There is only one, really. I was exaggerating. I saw you and another man. I couldn’t make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and... " Her mouth tightened worriedly, and she went on in a very small voice. "I don’t know what it means, Rand, except that one of you dies, and one doesn’t. I - Why are you grinning? This isn’t a joke, Rand. I do not know which of you dies."

greatwolf
05-24-2010, 06:42 AM
It seems a bit unlikely that it refers to Mat, Perrin and Rand. Of course, I'm not entirely sure how good Min is at counting, which is a rather crucial factor in my disbelief here.


hmm, good point. Rand's already merging with Moridin, so "three must be as one" would refer to Rand Moridin and LTT. But there're two problems I have here. First I don't recall the "three must be as one" quote specifically.


But it seems to point towards Rand/LTT/Moridin though its quite funny for those three to merge. What will they become?

LT is definitely crazy. Rand is a 20year old kid under severe stress and Moridin is the insane evil genius who's addicted to the TP. What good could ever come of it?

greatwolf
06-10-2010, 08:44 AM
He had seen this man before in visions, not unlike the ones that appeared when he thought of Mat or Perrin.
The colors did not appear on this thought of his friends. That was
236 THE GATHERING STORM
odd, but somehow not unexpected. The visions he'd seen of the man in the other chair were different from the ones involving Perrin and Mat. They were more visceral, somehow, more real. At times during those visions, Rand had felt almost as if he could reach out and touch this man. He'd been afraid of what would happen if he did.
He had met the man only once. At Shadar Logoth. The stranger had saved Rand's life, and Rand had often wondered who he had been. Now, in this place, Rand finally knew....




..."We are all reborn," Moridin continued, "spun back into the Pattern time and time again. Death is no barrier to my master save for those who have known balefire. They are beyond his grasp. It is a wonder we can remember them."
So some of the others really were dead. Balefire was the key. But how had Moridin gotten into Rand's dreams? Rand set wards each night. He glanced at Moridin, noticing something odd about the man's eyes. Small black specks floated about in the whites, crossing back and forth like bits of ash blown on a leisurely wind.
"The Great Lord can grant you sanity, you know," Moridin said.
"Your last gift of sanity brought me no comfort," Rand said, surprising himself with the words. That had been Lews Therin's memory, not his own. Yet Lews Therin was gone from his mind. Oddly, Rand felt more stable—somehow—here in this place where all else appeared fluid. The pieces of himself fit together better. Not perfectly, of course, but better than they had in recent memory.


Shows that the link between the taveren seems to be different from the Rand/moridin link (RML for short!). The absence of the colours might be because the setting was in Moridin's dream and he is not connected to them.

But this intimacy seems to be one of the soul not just the body.

4Alethinos
06-11-2010, 05:58 PM
When I first read Min's statement as quoted above, I thought it might refer to the LTT memories and the Rand memories. Now I believe that it referes to Moridin and Rand and the link that was forged at Shadar Logoth when the balefire streams merged.

It is that link that is drawing them closer together. Min, IMO, is stating categorically that when the merge is complete, pick a body, one will be dead. The end result is one soul remaining in one body, IMO.

This is why, in the long ago past, that I have believed that Rand's soul will survive in Moridin's nifty bod while Rand's old one dies for lack of a soul. This explains Nicola's vision propecy about the boat funeral for the body and the vision of Rand's body just being a facade for where the real soul is at that time located. We will see.

I operate on the assumption that RJ never lied to us and that a soul cannot be split. It is obvious from Luc/Isam that more than one soul can inhabit one body. However, only one can be in control at a time.

Oh yes, great to see the old timers still posting and arguing. I have missed you all.

greatwolf
06-12-2010, 05:14 AM
I operate on the assumption that RJ never lied to us and that a soul cannot be split. It is obvious from Luc/Isam that more than one soul can inhabit one body. However, only one can be in control at a time.


A wise assumption if I may say so. But the debate isn't that simple. We little of the characteristics of souls in the WoT. But we have many cases : Arangar, Fain, Rand, the souless Ogier, Birgitte and so on.

Currently I think that souls are virtually omnipresent in the WoT. That is what allows the two to be connected across distances. There are other ways of course, but I favour that explanation for now.