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Terez
05-03-2010, 01:43 AM
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 21 - Into the Heart

Into the heart he thrusts his sword,
into the heart, to hold their hearts.
Who draws it out shall follow after,
What hand can grasp that fearful blade?

I believe this refers to Justice. Rand will kill Gawyn with Justice at the Battle of Caemlyn. Tam just posted my theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=127&theo=2701) about that. Anyway, the Battle of Caemlyn will be between the Randland forces and the Seanchan. It's a reference to the Battle of Camlann from Arthurian legend, where King Arthur and Mordred (Morgase+Damodred=Mordred) kill each other simultaneously. There was already a parallel to this at Falme with Rand and Ishamael, but neither of them actually died. In this, both Gawyn and Rand will die.

Note that the prophecy avoids using a gender-specific pronoun by saying 'who draws it out'. Therefore, Tuon (the descendant of Hawkwing) will draw the sword out of Gawyn's heart. Her hand is the only one that can grasp that fearful blade.

That makes her Egwene's woman with a sword. We know that Egwene is going to bond Gawyn because if she doesn't, he's going to break her neck. So she'll be suffering from the loss of her Warder, for one.

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

She was struggling up a narrow, rocky path along the face of a towering cliff. Clouds surrounded her, hiding the ground below and the crest above, yet she knew that both were very far away. She had to place her feet very carefully. The path was a cracked ledge barely wide enough for her to stand on with one shoulder pressed against the cliff, a ledge littered with stones as large as her fist that could turn under a misplaced step and send her hurtling over the edge. It almost seemed this was like the dreams of pushing millstones and pulling carts, yet she knew it was a true dream.

Abruptly, the ledge dropped away from under her with the crack of crumbling stone, and she caught frantically at the cliff, fingers scrabbling to find a hold. Her fingertips slid into a tiny crevice, and her fall stopped with a jolt that wrenched her arms. Feet dangling into the clouds, she listened to the falling stone crash against the cliff until the sound faded to nothing without the stone ever hitting the ground. Dimly, she could see the broken ledge to her left. Ten feet away, it might as well have been a mile off for all the chance she had of reaching it. In the other direction, the mists hid whatever remained of the path, but she thought it had to be farther away still. There was no strength in her arms. She could not pull herself up, only hang there by her fingertips until she fell. The edge of the crevice seemed as sharp as a knife under her fingers.

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene’s level and held out one hand. “We can reach the top together,” she said in a familiar drawl*ing accent.

Egwene pushed the dream away as she would have a viper. She felt her body thrash, heard herself groan in her sleep, but for a moment she could do nothing. She had dreamed of the Seanchan before, of a Seanchan woman somehow tied to her, but this was a Seanchan who would save her. No! They had put a leash on her, made her damane. She would as soon die as be saved by a Seanchan! A very long time passed before she could address herself to calming her sleeping body. Or maybe it only seemed a long time. Not a Seanchan; never that!
When I was writing the 'Gawyn kills Rand' theory, I was figuring Egwene probably wouldn't be there. Looks like I was probably wrong about that.

I'll be revising that theory constantly I'm sure once I post it on my blog. That will probably be coming after finals (two weeks).

Edit: On second thought, Egwene still might not be there. She'll have her own drama in the Tower with Mesaana to deal with, and I have always thought that the someone that has to run 'fast enough' was Mat. But Tuon will get the sword at the Battle of Caemlyn. Perhaps they will go against the Black Tower together? Hard to say.

Anaiya Sedai
05-03-2010, 08:56 AM
I always assumed that that propecy was talking about Callandor, and whoever rand sent to grab it from the floor he stuck it into.. but then I might be getting my details all mixed up.

GonzoTheGreat
05-03-2010, 09:22 AM
Narishma, wasn't it?
You're making the same assumption that Rand is making, but then, what does he know of the Prophecies?

Neilbert
05-03-2010, 09:49 AM
I believe this refers to Justice. Rand will kill Gawyn with Justice at the Battle of Caemlyn.

I like this theory because Egwene suffers, and Gawyn does something useful for a change and then dies.

Also it has Tuon with a sword, how cool is that?

ckparrothead
05-03-2010, 04:13 PM
What if the reason Rand gets to live after he dies is because the Dark One himself revives him?

I guess it's easy to assume that if Rand dies, that = Dark One victory...but maybe it's not so. Maybe he needs Rand alive, and the fact that Rand has channeled the True Power gives the Lord of the Grave the ability to reincarnate him like he did Aginor, Balthamael, Ishamael, Lanfear, etc.

Anyway that was a great read on the whole Gawyn will kill Rand thing. Not sure if any of it will actually happen that way but still a great read.

And the theory about Mat's medallion being really important...I kind of like it.

I have wondered lately if that whole experience of Mat's with the foxes had been examined closely enough. I'm not sure if anyone has really examined closely what gifts that Mat received that answer his requests, and what price he paid. I think there's the obvious and shallow, but RJ has shown himself to be at times pretty averse to the obvious and shallow.

For instance, the stuff written on the spear, what if it's not just some cutesy rhyme?

"The Arrow of Time" is an important philosophical and scientific concept, related strongly to the second law of thermodynamics, which states that entropy (randomness) increases over time. That theory was challenged by Maxwell's Demon, a thought experiment that hypothesized a Demon in charge of a trap door between two gas containers of the same temperature, but that the Demon would only allow fast-moving particles to flow one way and slow-moving particles to flow the other way through the trap door, thus decreasing entropy (randomness) and violating the second law of thermodynamics.

I'm not going to pretend I know how this all relates to The Wheel of Time series, the Finns or the Dark One or anything like that...it's just an example of something that may not have been talked about or theorized about.

What if RJ decided that there would be two of Maxwell's Demons? The snakes give true answers, and thus decrease entropy. The foxes would therefore increase entropy...and one way they could certainly do that would be setting Mat on the path that would lead to the death of the Dragon Reborn (the medallion).

ckparrothead
05-03-2010, 04:18 PM
Of course, knowing the Wheel of Time community, I'm probably not going over anything new, but rather naively re-stumbling upon the third-most talked about theory in all of Jorandom about the Unified Theory of Randomness (there's that name, Rand) in the Wheel of Time.

Terez
05-03-2010, 06:40 PM
I always assumed that that propecy was talking about Callandor, and whoever rand sent to grab it from the floor he stuck it into.. but then I might be getting my details all mixed up.
Rand tried to force the prophecy. The prophecy was good inspiration for what he did, but I've always sort of thought that Rand was probably wrong about that one. Go back and read it in the OP - that's all we get about it. Nothing about Callandor.

Also, I just thought of something better. I was having a hard time imagining how Tuon could get on the field to take the sword from Rand, and how she would 'follow after' when she's the Empress and she doesn't follow anyone. But what if Egeanin is the one to draw it out? She's got this whole plot development thing going on with Tuon, how she was forced into a situation where she had to betray the Empire, but really, she is like the most dedicated servant the Empire has ever had. She even still goes by Leilwin, even though she is no longer really required to do what Tuon says, because she is still a good little faithful Seanchan. She will go by Leilwin until Tuon says otherwise.

Also, Tuon was not at Falme. Egeanin was. There will also be a good number of other people around that were at Falme; Domon, Elayne, possibly Egwene, Min, Nynaeve, etc. Min and Nynaeve haven't yet recognized it, but if Egeanin brings it to their attention, they might. Possibly Mat and Moiraine, if they get back in time.

In any case, after Rand is dead, the need to make peace with the Seanchan will be even more acute. If Egeanin takes the sword to Tuon, she might have a chance of redeeming herself in Tuon's eyes. Tuon will also have at least one or two people on hand who were at Falme and can verify the identity of the sword.

Terez
05-03-2010, 06:48 PM
What if the reason Rand gets to live after he dies is because the Dark One himself revives him?
It's possible, but probably not preferable. I think that Rand's connection with Moridin, and him using the True Power, is a very, very bad thing. I think that's precisely why he has to die.

I figure that there is a reason for everything in the WoT world, and that the reason why Moghedien had to rip Birgitte out of Tel'aran'rhiod, the reason why Birgitte was compelled to break the precepts in Perrin's presence, was so that Nynaeve could learn how it was done, and 'heal' Rand's death.

And the theory about Mat's medallion being really important...I kind of like it.
Thanks. :)

For instance, the stuff written on the spear, what if it's not just some cutesy rhyme?
We have known that it is not for some time. Odin hanged himself on a tree for knowledge, and he has two ravens named 'thought' and 'memory' that perch on his shoulders. I think that the obvious Odin parallels rather cleverly distract from the Judas parallel.

Basel Gill
05-03-2010, 06:57 PM
I really like how this new theory and the next to newest (The Seed Singing theory) put a new perspective on how the story will end. I will never have the eye for detail that most of you do. These were both quite interesting!

Terez
05-03-2010, 07:17 PM
I'm glad you liked it. :D

ShadowbaneX
05-03-2010, 07:46 PM
I'm not entirely sure I buy into this because a) it seems excessive, b) the second line doesn't make much sense with this interpretation & c) there's been no mention of it for quite a while.

With Callandor and the Stone, Rand's interpretation makes sense. He leaves callandor behind to prevent the Tairens from just forgetting about him.

The 'to hold their hearts' part, is where it seems to stumble to me. What does Rand and Gawyn killing each other accomplish that will hold people's hearts? Does them killing each other, and if your theory carries through, causes Egwene to have that bond snapping emotional spin, help those people work together or keep them on the path to Tarmon Gaidon? It would seem to me that it would hurt things.

Now, granted, from Tuon's thoughts in tGS, it's supposedly the Seanchan forces that are going to mop the floor and then Tuon's supposed to send Rand into face the DO, which might give your theory some weight, but then we don't know which parts of that are corrupted and which aren't, so that's grain of salt territory.

Terez
05-03-2010, 08:14 PM
Well, Tuon's impression is that she is going to lead the forces of the Light to victory and 'send' the Dragon Reborn into the Pit of Doom to do the deed. If Rand is letting everyone believe that he is still dead, then Tuon leading the forces of the Light seems very likely, actually (with Mat as her general of course). After all, the Aelfinn told Rand that the truce has to happen before he can win.

I also wondered about the 'to hold their hearts' bit. Maybe some inspiration will come later, but really...that's the only bit I don't understand yet, and IMO, that means we're in good shape. All of the rest makes sense, especially with Egeanin thrown in the mix. But I will be brainstorming on this for a while. I come up with new ideas every hour or two, lol.

ShadowbaneX
05-03-2010, 08:48 PM
the 'to hold their hearts' bit would make a bit more sense for the actions that happened in tSR though, which might be a bit of a hole in this idea. It's possible that Rand is wrong, but from a literary point of view it would make more sense, much like the Eye of the World, that some devices have already served their purposed, in this case the prophecy you're reusing, and that what's yet to come we don't have much of a hint at.

It would be very Jordan-esque to have a diversion that like, but somehow it doesn't feel quite like a diversion/red herring.

Terez
05-03-2010, 09:34 PM
the 'to hold their hearts' bit would make a bit more sense for the actions that happened in tSR though
Well, that was why Rand did it. It was pretty much the only part of it that he could force to make sense, though.

What bothered me about that was Rand's arrogance in assuming that he had any clue what that prophecy meant, and that he could just make it happen. The truth in the ancient dream one....he didn't just pull that out of thin air, really. He had good hints that Rhuidean was a 'lost and forsaken' city, and leading the spears to war made a great deal of sense at that point, especially since Rand knew that clan chiefs were marked by dragons, and that the Aiel use spears exclusively (though he didn't know why yet). He knew that the Aiel 'dance the spear'. He had just learned that he was important to the Aiel prophecies, and that they were the 'People of the Dragon'.

Rand thought he was being clever when he made the literary analogy between the Heart of the Stone and the prophecy, and he found a way to make 'hold their hearts' make sense. But that was all he had.

Perhaps Justice will be what holds their hearts, via Tuon. I imagine that Tuon will be rather freaked out about the Dragon Reborn being dead. But perhaps she will be able to rally the troops with some line about Rand's spirit living on through the sword or something. She might be in on the secret of Nynaeve ripping him out; the dream Egwene had of Rand confronting her, and the women with her, and one of them is a Seanchan. I figure this will be after Nynaeve rips him out, and part of why Egwene will be pissed is because she just lost her Warder. I dunno - there are a bunch of different ways it could play out.

Mat will be in the mix at some point or another, with the Horn, but I believe that by the time they get around to blowing the Horn, Rand will probably have been ripped out. There's another Jesus parallel there, with the women going to the tomb to see Jesus' body, and the body being gone, with angels there to tell them that this was a good thing because it means that Jesus is alive. The paper puppet in the Logain dream symbolizes that Rand's not going to be dead forever, and he's not going to come back in that body either. But because everyone knows Rand is dead, that leaves Logain free to do his thing with the Asha'man at the Black Tower. I don't expect that until A Memory of Light, but I could be wrong.

There is another possibility, for the Gawyn will kill Rand theory - that Rand will choose to Sheathe the Sword rather than kill Gawyn. It's harder to see how that would work, though. Rand thought of that, as he was fighting Ishamael; he used Heron Wading in the Rushes, which led to the Camlann-ish double-mortal-wounding thing, because Heron Wading in the Rushes leaves you wide open. But it does involve a thrust to the heart:

TITLE - The Great Hunt
CHAPTER: 47 - The Grave Is No Bar to My Call

It was another voice he heard then. Lan's voice. There will come a time when you want something more than you want life. Ingtar's voice. It is every man's right to choose when to Sheathe the Sword. The picture formed of Egwene, collared, living her life as a damane. Threads of my life in danger. Egwene. If Hawkwing gets into Falme, he can save her. Before he knew it, he had taken the first position of Heron Wading in the Rushes, balanced on one foot, sword raised high, open and defenseless. Death is lighter than a feather, duty heavier than a mountain.

Ba'alzamon stared at him. "Why are you grinning like an idiot, fool? Do you not know I can destroy you utterly?"

Rand felt a calmness beyond that of the void. "I will never serve you, Father of Lies. In a thousand lives, I never have. I know that. I'm sure of it. Come. It is time to die."

Ba'alzamon's eyes widened; for an instant they were furnaces that put sweat on Rand's face. The blackness behind Ba'alzamon boiled up around him, and his face hardened. "Then die, worm!" He struck with the staff, as with a spear.

Rand screamed as he felt it pierce his side, burning like a white-hot poker. The void trembled, but he held on with the last of his strength, and drove the heron-mark blade into Ba'alzamon's heart. Ba'alzamon screamed, and the dark behind him screamed. The world exploded in fire.
So maybe it will go like that. Rand lost Tam's sword in that incident, but Gawyn isn't surrounded by a fog of the True Power, so Justice should make it out okay. And Gawyn gets to kill Rand via cutting into his already-double-Mordred wound?

ShadowbaneX
05-03-2010, 10:07 PM
your theory has parts I like and parts I don't like...well, killing part I don't like. I can see the later stuff working, but Rand need not die to Gawyn for all that to happen, nor need it happen after his death, it could all happen before it (unless he dies on Dragonmount, or perhaps dies again on Dragonmount...depends on how you view that whole LTT thing).

As for Tuon being there, well, I have to ask, given her opinions, how do you expect her to get there? She hates channelers and what's more after that attack, I doubt she'd be welcome in the Tower, in fact it'd have to pretty much be Tarmon Gaidon happening right at that moment for them to be in the same room together and even then they'd likely be fighting for control.

There's also Alivia. She's supposed to be the one to help Rand die. How does she factor into Gawyn killing Rand?

Terez
05-03-2010, 10:20 PM
your theory has parts I like and parts I don't like...well, killing part I don't like. I can see the later stuff working, but Rand need not die to Gawyn for all that to happen, nor need it happen after his death, it could all happen before it (unless he dies on Dragonmount, or perhaps dies again on Dragonmount...depends on how you view that whole LTT thing).
The main thing that convinces me that Rand will die is this:

Judas sold his knowledge of Jesus' whereabouts, identifying him with a kiss, for a price of thirty pieces of silver, and this led to Jesus' death. After Jesus was arrested, Judas gave the silver away (by throwing it at the priests in the Temple) and then he hanged himself on a tree. Mat got the silver medallion in Aelfland. The price: he was hanged 'for knowledge' on a tree, but he was saved from death by a 'kiss' from Rand (CPR), and he will accidentally betray Rand by giving that piece of silver away, which will lead to Rand's death at Gawyn's hands.
If the medallion doesn't lead to Rand's death, then the whole thing falls apart. But so much of what is required to make that parallel consistent has already happened, so it makes sense that it will continue to play out...and also, we know Rand has to die.

As for Tuon being there, well, I have to ask, given her opinions, how do you expect her to get there? She hates channelers and what's more after that attack, I doubt she'd be welcome in the Tower, in fact it'd have to pretty much be Tarmon Gaidon happening right at that moment for them to be in the same room together and even then they'd likely be fighting for control.
Did you see what I wrote about Egeanin? Also, the Seanchan woman with a sword is supposed to save Egwene, and I'm guessing from Mesaana. I imagine that Mat will be involved. Perhaps Egwene will be captured and taken to the Black Tower?

There's also Alivia. She's supposed to be the one to help Rand die. How does she factor into Gawyn killing Rand?
I'm sorry, I didn't realize you hadn't actually read the theory until now. Go read it. :p

Tamyrlin
05-03-2010, 10:29 PM
"Into the heart he thrusts his sword, into the heart, to hold their hearts. Who draws it out shall follow after, What hand can grasp that fearful blade? "You see? Straight from the Prophecies." It would be funny if this was the small detail, Rand's incorrect interpretation of prophecy that we all thought had been fulfilled. Not sure how it would fit all of the criteria for the small detail, but I do agree that Rand's interpretation feels heavy handed and almost too convenient for his personal desire to not have to take Callandor with him.

"Callandor. With that in my hands, I can do anything. Anything. I know I can do anything. But now, it's a weight off my shoulders. You don't understand, do you?"

ShadowbaneX
05-04-2010, 12:28 AM
It was alot of words and some of them were hard.

Anyway, my amusement aside that you used one of my factions in your theory and more so by saying that it's a popular theory, (in fact there's only a few people that are in the faction and I think most of them have probably forgotten about it by now), I still find this theory hard to accept.

Ok, I can perhaps see that Mat will be willing to give up his amulet, perhaps, maybe, sorta, it could be part of the no iron rule maybe. Assuming that happens, it only prevents direct channeling. It won't help lightning bolts called from the sky, exploding ground or collapsing buildings, or possibly even fireballs (it's possible that they unweave when they get to him, but they could still, you know, explode right beside the wearer, so not that helpful. I might be willing to go with the idea that Mat uses it to finally destroy the Gholam, but the amulet is destroyed in the process though, but that doesn't mean it winds up in Gawyn's hands, but then it doesn't really need to.

Now, Occam's Razor/KISS says there's a much simpler way for Gawyn not to have to worry about Rand's channeling, something much more convenient to the plot and that's Rand's...whatever it is when he tries to take hold of the source. If they go blade to blade he likely won't have the time to take the source because it would cause him to put too much effort/concentration into it and that would leave him open to a blow.

With that in mind your scenario for having Alivia helping Rand die isn't even needed and is rather unnecessarily complex. There's also the possibility that Rand has the channeling sickness that wilders sometimes get and he might well waste away and die from that, but, that's another theory.

There's also the fact that one of the driving reasons for Gawyn killing Rand is Morgase, and with it now being known, at least to Perrin and co, it's quite possible that Morgase could be returning to Andor, well, if that happens, Gawyn's reasons for killing Rand evaporate and it's more likely for Morgase to wind up in Caemlyn than for Gawyn & Rand to wind up there.

Like I said, it's an interesting idea and you might be right about some things, but there are alot of "if's"...IF Mat leaves behind his amulet and IF it winds up in Alivia's hands and IF Gawyn is there to pick it up and IF Rand winds up in Caemlyn and IF there's no one else around, because if there's anyone around they're probably going to try and stop it...etc, etc, etc.

Also, minor nitpick here, your "Darkness fits the sun" is a bit of a stretch. It's more of the idea that Egwene believes that Gawyn cannot betray anything, the light and dark imagery are just to make a point, the sun is the primary source of light and it would be impossible to imagine it as a source of darkness.

Also, I think you're thinking too literally, too much of a direct copy of our mythos. Yes, there are similarities and they are twisted, and yes, he uses some points, but I think you're making too many direct parallels here.

Most of us believe that there's going to be a battle in and or around Caemlyn, but why must Rand & Gawyn be there? I mean Rand is on Dragonmount and Gawyn is in Tar Valon. It would be a thousand times simpler just for them to have a confrontation there, rather then hauling them all the way back to Caemlyn for it to happen.

It feels...forced. There are so many other, simpler, more elegant ways for these events to take place then in the method that you suggest that it just feels forced...and if you are correct and it happens this way, BS, or hell, RJ haven written it that way just feels to me to be very heavy handed.

It's a powerful and interesting theory, Terez, but it's a little overly complex and, well, if it ends up written that way, I'd say it was a clumsy way of forcing the plot when so many other elegant solutions are possible for Rand dying. Hell, Gawyn could end up killing Rand in Tar Valon, no sword fight required...or it could be one of the Bloodknives that winds up doing it.

There's just too many other, more elegant ways that this can play out, rather then, directly taking from several of our myths. It's RJ's story and while he's borrowed from mythology and put elements of them into the series, I don't think (and I sincerely hope), that he didn't plan his story according to how those myths played out.

Terez
05-04-2010, 02:36 AM
Anyway, my amusement aside that you used one of my factions in your theory and more so by saying that it's a popular theory, (in fact there's only a few people that are in the faction and I think most of them have probably forgotten about it by now), I still find this theory hard to accept.
Do you even have a premium account any more? Because I am pretty sure I have tried to join that faction twice.

Ok, I can perhaps see that Mat will be willing to give up his amulet, perhaps, maybe, sorta, it could be part of the no iron rule maybe.
I don't think it will be connected to the iron rule. Silver isn't iron. I gave better reasons for him leaving it with Elayne in my theory.

Assuming that happens, it only prevents direct channeling. It won't help lightning bolts called from the sky, exploding ground or collapsing buildings, or possibly even fireballs (it's possible that they unweave when they get to him, but they could still, you know, explode right beside the wearer, so not that helpful.
Gawyn need not know this, and even if he does, it's still better than nothing.

Now, Occam's Razor/KISS says there's a much simpler way for Gawyn not to have to worry about Rand's channeling, something much more convenient to the plot and that's Rand's...whatever it is when he tries to take hold of the source. If they go blade to blade he likely won't have the time to take the source because it would cause him to put too much effort/concentration into it and that would leave him open to a blow.
1. Gawyn has no idea about Rand's problems with channeling.

2. I doubt Rand won't already be holding the Power when Gawyn finds him. It's a huge battle, against an army with damane.

3. Without the medallion, the Mat 'betrayal' isn't explained, nor is the Judas parallel complete. This is the only way for Mat to 'betray' Rand with the silver. I can't see any other way to make the Judas parallel complete. Can you? A good few bits of the Judas parallel have already been laid down: Mat's Portal Stone lives, and the whole scene in Rhuidean, with Mat being hanged. RJ said he liked to 'reverse-engineer' his myths and such, but it doesn't make any sense for him to link Mat to Judas if he's not going to somehow contribute to Rand's death. There is good foreshadowing for both Mat's 'betrayal' and Gawyn's.

With that in mind your scenario for having Alivia helping Rand die isn't even needed and is rather unnecessarily complex.
It's not complex at all. It's a totally random and easily believable scenario that just so happens to encompass every aspect of Alivia's character: her desire to kill Seanchan, her role as the mean killing machine with all the cool toys (she likes to play children's games), and the fact that we know she will help Rand die. That is as simple as it gets.

All the other theories assume that Alivia is going to help Rand die in some way that is not supported by the previous development of her character at all. Mine pretty much sums her up, head to toe.

There's also the possibility that Rand has the channeling sickness that wilders sometimes get and he might well waste away and die from that, but, that's another theory.
He could die any number of ways, but are those ways supported by evidence? How is Rand wasting away 'elegant'? Sounds pretty freaking boring and dumb to me.

There's also the fact that one of the driving reasons for Gawyn killing Rand is Morgase, and with it now being known, at least to Perrin and co, it's quite possible that Morgase could be returning to Andor, well, if that happens, Gawyn's reasons for killing Rand evaporate and it's more likely for Morgase to wind up in Caemlyn than for Gawyn & Rand to wind up there.
I addressed that in my theory. This is what everyone believes will happen, but I don't think RJ is going to do it like we expected. Morgase will never make it to Caemlyn. She'll probably be nearby enough for extreme irony, but she will not make it in time to prevent Rand's death.

Like I said, it's an interesting idea and you might be right about some things, but there are alot of "if's"...IF Mat leaves behind his amulet and IF it winds up in Alivia's hands and IF Gawyn is there to pick it up and IF Rand winds up in Caemlyn and IF there's no one else around, because if there's anyone around they're probably going to try and stop it...etc, etc, etc.
You make it sound as if it is just a long random chain of ifs....but it isn't. They are all supported by evidence.

Mat leaving his medallion with Elayne is foreshadowed in Lord of Chaos, and again in A Crown of Swords. It is also foreshadowed by the Judas parallel, and the bits of it that have already played out.

The medallion ending up in Alivia's hands is foreshadowed by her desire to fight the Seanchan, by the fact that she has been given ter'angreal to fight with all along because she is strong and skilled in battle, and also by the fact that Alivia has to help Rand die. It's further backed up by the Mat-Judas parallel.

Gawyn being there to pick it up is supported by the fact that he is the First Prince of the Sword, and by the foreshadowing of his violent death, and the foreshadowing of his betrayal, and it's strengthened even further by Arthurian parallels.

Rand being there in Caemlyn is supported by the Camlann parallel, and by both of Elaida's Foretellings concerning Andor. She Foretold that 'From this day Andor marches toward pain and division....Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.' I believe that she meant that he was personally at the heart of the pain and division, and also that he physically stood at the heart of the pain and division that would culminate in the Battle of Caemlyn - the final battle between Randland and the Seanchan, and the place of Rand's death. I believe that her Foretelling about the royal line of Andor includes Gawyn. Rand's death is also necessary.

I never said that Rand would be alone, and I've given plenty of reason why he doesn't even have to be alone for there to be a duel between him and Gawyn. Also, both of Rand's never-healing wounds were precipitated by a duel between him and another blademaster. ;)

Also, minor nitpick here, your "Darkness fits the sun" is a bit of a stretch.
It's foreshadowing. It might be a stretch if it weren't connected to so many other pieces of evidence, but it is, so it isn't.

It's more of the idea that Egwene believes that Gawyn cannot betray anything, the light and dark imagery are just to make a point, the sun is the primary source of light and it would be impossible to imagine it as a source of darkness.
Yes dear, I know what Egwene meant. Foreshadowing works like that: a more profound meaning is hidden beneath the obvious meaning.

Also, I think you're thinking too literally, too much of a direct copy of our mythos.
It's not a direct copy at all. If it were a direct copy, there wouldn't be so many Mordred parallels, for example. Mat wouldn't be both Odin and Judas. King Arthur wouldn't be both Rand and Artur Hawkwing. The Battle of Camlann would be just one battle, rather than Falme, the Battle of Cairhien, the Cairhienin rebel camp, the Battle of Caemlyn, and who knows how many other things all tied up together. If Rand was a direct Arthur parallel, then he would stay dead, only to be seen in the forest with his hunting dogs, or maybe called back to lead his armies via the Horn. But Rand will come back to life for real. If Rand was a direct Jesus parallel, he'd come back to life only to disappear into heaven again. But Rand is most likely going to come back to stay, as a human, and not as an immortal.

Most of us believe that there's going to be a battle in and or around Caemlyn, but why must Rand & Gawyn be there? I mean Rand is on Dragonmount and Gawyn is in Tar Valon. It would be a thousand times simpler just for them to have a confrontation there, rather then hauling them all the way back to Caemlyn for it to happen.
I believe I have covered all of these questions already. The theory that Rand will die on Dragonmount is pretty loony.

There's just too many other, more elegant ways that this can play out
You are babbling. You said that three times, so I pared it down. Why should Rand's death be 'elegant'? What makes your scenarios any more 'elegant' than this one? RJ has been reverse-engineering legends for the whole series, and you just now want to take objection to it because Terez has a theory that makes a lot of sense? I'll be sad for you when the book comes out. :D

Terez
05-04-2010, 02:50 AM
Also, I believe that the supposed Aes Sedai superweapon will have something to do with why the Seanchan attack Caemlyn (along with the marath'damane queen). Brandon mentioned that the Seanchan are disappointed about not having gotten that out of the Tower raid, and now that they have Elaida, they might be able to determine more about the source of that weapon. Elaida knows that Elayne and Nynaeve were in Ebou Dar around that time, and it's fairly common knowledge that there are a great lot of non-Aes Sedai female channelers in the Palace. There might be enough info for the Seekers to put it together, for once. They did capture a lot of damane at the Kin's farm...the ones that tried to run.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 03:36 AM
Once he is dead, how can he 'bind the nine moons to serve him'?
Even Elaida admits (sort of, at least) that that is something he has to do when Egwene confronts her with it.

Terez
05-04-2010, 03:46 AM
Once he is dead, how can he 'bind the nine moons to serve him'?
He already has, through Mat, and he will further through Justice.

Even Elaida admits (sort of, at least) that that is something he has to do when Egwene confronts her with it.
Elaida's Foretelling didn't have anything to do with that. Egwene's dream, on the other hand, will probably take place after Rand has been ripped out. Egwene and several women will confront Rand. I imagine that Nynaeve and Tuon will be two of them, maybe Moiraine as well? Most of the world won't know that he's been resurrected. Egwene will be wroth with him for killing her Warder, among other things.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 04:03 AM
He already has, through Mat, and he will further through Justice.This is WoT, not SoT. If the Prophecies says that she has to serve him, then having her be CiC with Rand dead is not going to fit that requirement.

Terez
05-04-2010, 04:13 AM
This is WoT, not SoT. If the Prophecies says that she has to serve him, then having her be CiC with Rand dead is not going to fit that requirement.
Like I said, he's coming back from the dead.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 04:35 AM
And why would she serve him any more than she does now when he has come back?

Terez
05-04-2010, 04:59 AM
She will serve him by fulfilling the prophecies and leading his armies against the forces of the Shadow while he sneaks in to battle Lighteater.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 05:17 AM
Then one can say that Elaida also served him, in her case by distracting most AS with pointless infighting and bickering, thus keeping them off his back while he was learning how to deal with things. And Rahvin and Nial served Elayne by removing her mother from the throne.

Frankly, I don't think that is a good interpretation of the word "serving". But then, I've always like the "How to serve Man" interpretation, so I may be prejudiced.

Neilbert
05-04-2010, 06:33 AM
RJ has been tricksy with the whole serve me thing, like how Moiraine got Rand to serve her cause, or how you get Saidar to serve you.

It isn't always a straight control thing.

Terez
05-04-2010, 06:41 AM
RJ has been tricksy with the whole serve me thing, like how Moiraine got Rand to serve her cause, or how you get Saidar to serve you.

It isn't always a straight control thing.
Like how Elza served Rand by wearing the other bracelet with Semirhage.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 06:52 AM
Yeah, but that was "in her own way", a disclaimer which isn't attached to Tuon's terms of service.

Terez
05-04-2010, 06:57 AM
In her own 'fashion', actually. But I'm wondering if Egwene won't actually bind Tuon with the Oath Rod. It seems unlikely, but the prophecy does suggest it, does it not?

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 07:17 AM
But then Tuon would be bound to serve Egwene, not Rand.

Neilbert
05-04-2010, 07:26 AM
I've always had the inking of the idea that Egwene will give Tuon access to the Oath Rod. I could see this playing out a variety of ways; Elyane could make another Oath Rod, or they could share one. Either way I see Egwene being important in explaining to Tuon the Oath Rod and giving her "official" permission to use it.

I think Tuon might be open to exchanging an Oath Rod Oath of Fealty for the a-dam. The Oath accomplishes everything the a-dam does, and carries some advantages it does not.

Terez
05-04-2010, 07:33 AM
Well, Egwene's deal at the moment is getting people to prove they aren't Darkfriends. But of course, Tuon would have to channel before she could be bound on it. At least, I assume she would have to. Perhaps being on the brink is enough to make the Rod work on her.

Neilbert
05-04-2010, 08:40 AM
I wasn't trying to suggest I believed that Tuon would be bound by the Oath Rod.

Casabamelon
05-04-2010, 09:56 AM
But then Tuon would be bound to serve Egwene, not Rand.

Wouldn't that depend on the oath?
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One Armed Gimp
05-04-2010, 10:15 AM
Nice and neatly laid out theory. I have some qualms buying into completely. The take on Nicola's foretelling is intriguing and I can almost buy into the Battle of Caemlyn being the "great battle".

The land will still be divided by the return even with a truce. A physical division is still a division. Even the Aelfinn answer does not negate there being a division and can be interpreted many ways. My point is that Nicola's foretelling could still be labeling the Last Battle as the great battle. However it could just as easily point to the Battle of Caemlyn.

While I agree that the ripping out method is the most likely method of resurrection for Rand, I still don't buy into him being resurrected 100% either. Which of course puts a damper on my buying into your theory as the resurrection is vital to its happening.

GonzoTheGreat
05-04-2010, 10:56 AM
Wouldn't that depend on the oath?Well, yes. Want to guess what Egwene would and wouldn't put into such an oath?

Marie Curie 7
05-04-2010, 11:11 AM
Cool idea. The Narishma thing always seemed a bit forced to me. And forcing prophecy was one of the things that Moiraine warned about:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 50 - Traps

Moiraine's lips compressed, and her hands were too still on her skirts; she was not best pleased. "Prophecy is most dangerous when you try to make it happen. Did you not learn that in Tear? The Pattern weaves itself around you, but when you try to weave it, even you cannot hold it. Force the Pattern too tight, and pressure builds. It can explode wildly in every direction. Who can say how long before it settles to focus on you again, or what will happen before it does?"

But then, she tried to do the same thing herself:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 6 - Doorways

"In one stroke he will make himself so strong in terms of men and swords that only a coalition of every remaining nation from here to the Blight can defeat him, and with the same blow he shows the Forsaken that he is not a plump partridge on a limb for the netting. That will make them wary, and buy him time to learn to use his strength. He must move first, be the hammer, not the nail." The Aes Sedai grimaced slightly, a hint of her earlier anger marring her calm. "He must move first. And what does he do? He reads. Reads himself into deeper trouble."

Nynaeve looked shaken, as if she could see all the battles and death; Egwene's dark eyes were large with horrified understanding. Their faces made Elayne shiver. One had watched Rand grow up, the other had grown up with him. And now they saw him starting wars. Not the Dragon Reborn, but Rand al'Thor.

Egwene struggled visibly, latching onto the smallest part, the most inconsequential, of what Moiraine had said. "How can reading put him in trouble?"

"He has decided to find out for himself what the Prophecies of the Dragon say." Moiraine's face remained cool and smooth, but suddenly she sounded almost as tired as Elayne felt. "They may have been proscribed in Tear, but the Chief Librarian had nine different translations in a locked chest. Rand has them all, now. I pointed out the verse that applies here, and he quoted it to me, from an old Kandori translation.

"'Power of the Shadow made human flesh,
wakened to turmoil, strife and ruin.
The Reborn One, marked and bleeding,
dances the sword in dreams and mist,
chains the Shadowsworn to his will,
from the city, lost and forsaken,
leads the spears to war once more,
breaks the spears and makes them see,
truth long hidden in the ancient dream.'"

She grimaced. "It applies to this as well as it does to anything. Illian under Sammael is surely a forsaken city. Lead the Tairen spears to war, chain Sammael, and he has fulfilled the verse. The ancient dream of the Dragon Reborn. But he will not see it. He even has a copy in the Old Tongue, as if he understood two words. He runs after shadows, and Sammael, or Rahvin, or Lanfear may have him by the throat before I can convince him of his mistake."

ShadowbaneX
05-04-2010, 11:34 AM
boring, dumb & babbling? I'll admit that it was late when I wrote that but just because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation Terez doesn't mean you need to start throwing around (granted mild) insults (but insults none-the-less. It creates an air of hostility that makes discussing theories difficult.

You also claim to have evidence, and well, that's the funny thing about it, people can disagree on how things are interpreted. I can see where you're coming from with your evidence, but I don't agree with the conclusions you're drawing from them. It's that simple.

As for my premium account, I'm a lifetime member so I'll always have it. I check every now and then, but unless the invites expire (or are withdrawn by the user) there's never more then the occasional youngling that signs up.

As for the Theory as I said, there are some parts of your theory that work, I just think it's too large to really get it to fit together nicely.

Personally, I believe once the Seanchan have Traveling Tuon's more likely to settle Seanchan and claim her throne then to come after Caemlyn. As per what Brandon has said, she might not be happy with not learning the source of 'the weapon', but with Traveling she can do alot of things we have seen her own thoughts express that she wants to do. Also if she does consolidate Seanchan she can gather forces over there, more at least then are currently over here, and try to strengthen her position on this side of the Ocean. That might set the stages for some surgical strikes via Traveling, but once she opens that can of worms, she then has to face the possibility that the other side is going to do the same thing to her. How about the idea of the Band of the Red Hand strolling around the streets of Seandar? Once she has access to those forces the attack might make sense, but I don't see the Seanchan massing for an attack at Caemlyn, I think their tactics might remain a little more...traditional.

If they're to do anything with Traveling it's to move scouting forces out and agents into other cities to start learning more of what's happening. Tuon's gone on a few times about how she wishes she knew more of what was happening and Traveling is an excellent way to get intel. This can happen while she's solidifying her support at home, or it can even happen without her going home and either way it takes time.

That said, I could (if we were to go by myth) see the Black Tower going EVIL and there perhaps being some form of peace treaty attempted between the Seanchan and the Randlanders and for some reason this happening at Caemlyn. I could also see the mistaken betrayal of truce such as happened in Arthurian legend, however, I don't entirely see it as being a large a battle as you foresee. I'm not entirely sure I'd like to see that happen, as I said in my last post a little too much of a copy of Arthurian Legend.

I could also see the Arthurian peace talks and pseudo-betrayal happening at Far Madding where the Borderlanders are. Them coming to figure things out, someone sees something coming draws swords and then a massive fight breaks out there instead.

I do not see Alivia pulling the Egwene and being the blazing banner of power trying rain down fiery vengeance with Mat's Medallion around her neck. I think the only reason why that worked in this book was due to the sa'angreal and the circle she had going with her...and the fact that the raken couldn't really get close to her and the fact the Seanchan were already pulling out. I don't see Alivia, even with Mat's amulet, pulling off that trick nearly as well, especially since we've seen from aCoS that the amulet doesn't protect from buildings or walls being dropped on you.

I can see, somehow, Rand and Gawyn drawing swords, although it would have to be isolated because chances are if anyone saw them fighting, they'd tried to stop it.

As I've said already, there are some parts to what you suggest that I like, but trying to fit it all together as you do...no, there are some pieces of the puzzle here that you have fitting together that I don't think work.

ckparrothead
05-04-2010, 01:53 PM
What would a battle with the Dark One actually look like? I mean, all he basically is, is some presence that exists outside the pattern. Some voice in a mountain.

What if Rand needs to die to even fight the guy?

ShadowbaneX
05-04-2010, 02:00 PM
I have a feeling that RJ's already thought that one up and it's either in his notes or perhaps already written. Crazy idea: it might even happen off screen and we're only just tangentially told about it. I think we'll find out in about a year and a half though.

Terez
05-04-2010, 04:48 PM
boring, dumb & babbling? I'll admit that it was late when I wrote that but just because someone doesn't agree with your interpretation Terez doesn't mean you need to start throwing around (granted mild) insults (but insults none-the-less. It creates an air of hostility that makes discussing theories difficult.
Sorry, but you did that first. The whole babbling thing was pretty insulting, and you arguing against the theory without actually having read it was the height of insulting.

ShadowbaneX
05-04-2010, 10:39 PM
I wasn't debating your theory, I was debating the part that you posted here and truth be told I thought that this was the essence of the theory posted here, sans overly long explanations.

First you think I'm giving you the evil eye, now you think I'm insulting you. I don't know why you think I'm so hostile towards you.

Terez
05-05-2010, 02:35 AM
I found another piece of evidence: Gawain's power waxes and wanes with the sun. His power is strongest at noon, and fades with the sunset. Of course, Gawyn doesn't have this power, but he will kill Rand at noon.

Terez
05-05-2010, 02:37 AM
What would a battle with the Dark One actually look like? I mean, all he basically is, is some presence that exists outside the pattern. Some voice in a mountain.

What if Rand needs to die to even fight the guy?
This is my guess, that he has to die first. I am guessing because of the link with Moridin. He can't sneak up on Shayol Ghul if Moridin might thereby get a whiff of it.

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2010, 03:52 AM
I found another piece of evidence: Gawain's power waxes and wanes with the sun. His power is strongest at noon, and fades with the sunset. Of course, Gawyn doesn't have this power, but he will kill Rand at noon.Does that mean that if Mat had faced Gawyn and Galad at noon, instead of before midmorning, then he would have lost?

Terez
05-05-2010, 06:37 AM
Does that mean that if Mat had faced Gawyn and Galad at noon, instead of before midmorning, then he would have lost?
Probably not, since Gawyn doesn't actually have any special powers. ;)

Crispin's Crispian
05-05-2010, 11:39 AM
I'm curious how Mat giving up the medallion could possibly be considered a betrayal? The only way I could see this happening is if Mat somehow knows that Gawyn is going to get his hands on it and also wants to kill Rand. That seems pretty unlikely.

I think Mat can still betray Rand in other ways (and he probably will), i.e., selling him out somehow to Tuon, bargaining again with the *'finn, etc. That would still fit the Judas parallel, which doesn't need the silver/medallion to work. That said, he could also lose the medallion in another bargain somewhere, but the key is he has to know that it will be used against Rand. Otherwise, there's no betrayal, just tragedy.

GonzoTheGreat
05-05-2010, 12:25 PM
Frankly, I think that Mat won't betray Rand.
The whole point of the PS madness was to show the people who went through it what didn't work.

Ingtar kept trying to achieve his goal by being a DF, and that did not work. In reality, he returned to the Light, and achieved his goal.
Rand kept running away from being the DR, and failed. In reality, he graciously allowed everyone to adore him, and now he has no problems. :p
Perrin tried to avoid the wolves, but in reality he accepts that part of him.

Mat betrayed Rand time and time again, so in reality he won't.
Sure, he will come close, just as those others also came (and come) close to repeating their failures. But close doesn't count, when it is a life and death situation.

Once again, I find myself wondering what Verin saw in her alternate lives.

Kimon
05-05-2010, 02:34 PM
Once again, I find myself wondering what Verin saw in her alternate lives.


"Though I never thought I..."

There are obviously numerous ways in which one could complete Verin's thought, but the fact that she made a point of stopping herself always (I say always since I've been convinced that she was black since her lie in this book...) led me to believe that this halted thought was connected to her either becoming Head of the Black Ajah or else perhaps even risen to Chosen status...

amazinglarry
05-05-2010, 02:42 PM
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Mysterious Galaxy, San Diego 15 November 2009 - Freelancer reporting

Q. Has Narishma fulfilled the prophecy regarding Callandor and "who draws it out shall follow after"?
A. RAFO.

This is from the interview database. It seems to reinforce the idea that Narishma as "the one who shall follow after" was a red herring. Other "was prophecy X fulfilled by event Y?" type questions have been answered in a straightforward manner by RJ (the one that comes to mind is Mat's "die and live again" fulfilled by the balefire incident rather than the hanging). It definitely leaves open the possibility (and maybe even suggests) that Rand's interpretation was wrong.

amazinglarry

Terez
05-05-2010, 04:08 PM
I'm curious how Mat giving up the medallion could possibly be considered a betrayal?
It isn't. It's just going to lead to Rand's death for the Judas parallel. Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn.

Crispin's Crispian
05-05-2010, 05:30 PM
It isn't. It's just going to lead to Rand's death for the Judas parallel. Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn.

Wow. Really? I didn't see that coming...
Here's what you said originally:

Judas sold his knowledge of Jesus' whereabouts, identifying him with a kiss, for a price of thirty pieces of silver, and this led to Jesus' death. After Jesus was arrested, Judas gave the silver away (by throwing it at the priests in the Temple) and then he hanged himself on a tree. Mat got the silver medallion in Eelfland. The price: he was hanged 'for knowledge' on a tree, but he was saved from death by a 'kiss' from Rand (CPR), and he will accidentally betray Rand by giving that piece of silver away, which will lead to Rand's death at Gawyn's hands.

But that's not a betrayal in any sense of the word. You can't really accidentally betray anyone, almost by definition. It may sound like I'm quibbling about semantics, but an actual betrayal is the core of any Judas parallel.

Then Mat will 'betray' that Rand is alive when he blows the Horn. To use one of your favorite phrases--that's just dumb. The only way it would be a betrayal is if Rand wanted his afterlife to be a secret, and Mat knew that. Even then, it's hardly on par with Judas.

nameless
05-05-2010, 08:52 PM
I think you're putting way to much weight on the Matt/Judas link... after all, Biblical parallels are only one of the many interwoven mythological influences. You might as well argue that Rand will convert to the Way of the Leaf because of his Jesus parallels.

Terez
05-05-2010, 11:07 PM
It may sound like I'm quibbling about semantics, but an actual betrayal is the core of any Judas parallel.
You are, and it depends on your perspective. Mat obviously isn't going to betray Rand knowingly. Judas was not just a betrayer, but also the cause of Jesus's death. Mat will be the cause of Rand's death, in a removed sort of way.

To use one of your favorite phrases--that's just dumb. The only way it would be a betrayal is if Rand wanted his afterlife to be a secret, and Mat knew that. Even then, it's hardly on par with Judas.
UR dumb. When Rand is sneaking up on Shayol Ghul, he'll need everyone to think he's dead. Mat could also betray him via the ta'veren color swirl (whereas Perrin could also deny him three times).

Ishara
05-06-2010, 07:51 AM
For what it's worth, because words are important:

be·tray   verb (used with object)
1.to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2.to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3.to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.
4.to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.
5.to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.
6.to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.
7.to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.
8.to seduce and desert.

I don't think that #5 bears up to the use of the word in your theory - I'm not commenting on the theory itse;f, mind you. Just saying that it may have a stronger impact if you used a different word, because in all but one use, betrayal is strongly associated with a conscious decision.

Terez
05-06-2010, 08:05 AM
I already said it's not a real betrayal, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 08:14 AM
For what it's worth, because words are important:

be·tray   verb (used with object)
1.to deliver or expose to an enemy by treachery or disloyalty: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country.
2.to be unfaithful in guarding, maintaining, or fulfilling: to betray a trust.
3.to disappoint the hopes or expectations of; be disloyal to: to betray one's friends.
4.to reveal or disclose in violation of confidence: to betray a secret.
5.to reveal unconsciously (something one would preferably conceal): Her nervousness betrays her insecurity.
6.to show or exhibit; reveal; disclose: an unfeeling remark that betrays his lack of concern.
7.to deceive, misguide, or corrupt: a young lawyer betrayed by political ambitions into irreparable folly.
8.to seduce and desert.

I don't think that #5 bears up to the use of the word in your theory - I'm not commenting on the theory itse;f, mind you. Just saying that it may have a stronger impact if you used a different word, because in all but one use, betrayal is strongly associated with a conscious decision.

In general, I'm in line with Crispin's skepticism... it's an interesting theory, but I don't really buy it (not that anyone cares). But the way Terez used betrayal in her theory actually does fit the above definition -- maybe not all of them, but many of them. You can betray someone accidentally (another version of the example above: Her nervousness betrayed her lie) or you can betray someone on purpose (example above: Benedict Arnold betrayed his country). I don't really have a problem with the verbage, and I don't really think it's the crux of the theory -- if you think about it, nearly everyone has betrayed their friends in the series. So what's the point of bickering over the definition? A far better (imo) argument is Nameless's statement:

I think you're putting way to much weight on the Matt/Judas link... after all, Biblical parallels are only one of the many interwoven mythological influences. You might as well argue that Rand will convert to the Way of the Leaf because of his Jesus parallels.

I have no problem believing that Perrin or Mat will wind up betraying Rand's trust, much in the way that Rand betrayed the Two Rivers by not rushing to their rescue, or betrayed Liah by not chasing her down in Shadar Logoth, but for them betray the side of Light (which is distinct from Rand himself)? I'm not sold on that. I might be able to see Mat doing it if he felt his life were in danger (or similar threatening circumstances), but I actually see Mat as, for once, giving up his instinct for survival in service to the greater good. Bottom line: it's probably a parallel that's being used, but I doubt it will be used quite as literally as Terez seems to suggest that it will be.

Just my two cents.

Basel Gill
05-06-2010, 09:00 AM
Just a quick thought. There are some who think that Judas did what he was supposed to do whether by instruction from Jesus or by fate or whatever.

Some of you may have seen an older movie called The Last Temptation of Christ which illustrates how this may have played out. It showed Jesus as a more human character where (I believe, it HAS been a long time since I've seen it) he was shown not to be able to turn himself in due to fear and instructed Judas to do it so he could fulfill his destiny.

Only reason this matters here is that maybe Mat fulfills the Judas role in those parameters. Maybe not because he hates or "betrays" Rand but because Mat or Rand (or both) know it is the only way it could happen.

Thoughts?

Terez
05-06-2010, 09:12 AM
Yeah, a lot of people have argued that Judas was simply a tool of God's plan, and therefore was not really culpable, and that he redeemed himself after Jesus was taken. I figure that RJ wanted to make it to where Mat was a tool of the Pattern, where he leads to Rand's death not because he actually betrays him, but by some other means. But there is still an opportunity for a real betrayal later, when Rand comes back from the dead.

Crispin's Crispian
05-06-2010, 02:25 PM
You are, and it depends on your perspective. Mat obviously isn't going to betray Rand knowingly. Judas was not just a betrayer, but also the cause of Jesus's death. Mat will be the cause of Rand's death, in a removed sort of way.
That's fine, but I still say that for the parallel to be effective, an actual conscious betrayal has to be involved. Quibbling about semantics is important when the word in question is the keystone to the whole argument.


UR dumb. When Rand is sneaking up on Shayol Ghul, he'll need everyone to think he's dead. Mat could also betray him via the ta'veren color swirl (whereas Perrin could also deny him three times).
Where's that part in your theory? It would help if you had posted in context instead of expecting us to read your mind. Besides, you clearly shifted gears from "betrayal via the medallion" to "betrayal via Horn." Which is it? Or is it both?

I already said it's not a real betrayal, so I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.See above. If it's not a "real" betrayal, what's the point of calling it one?

Yeah, a lot of people have argued that Judas was simply a tool of God's plan, and therefore was not really culpable, and that he redeemed himself after Jesus was taken. I figure that RJ wanted to make it to where Mat was a tool of the Pattern, where he leads to Rand's death not because he actually betrays him, but by some other means. But there is still an opportunity for a real betrayal later, when Rand comes back from the dead.

Not to get theological, but I've always figured for Jesus's death to mean what it supposedly meant, it had to be part of God's plan. Judas was culpable only insofar as Jesus's sacrifice was really a sacrifice. Yes, that sounds a little contradictory.

I think the betrayal thing with Mat is important, though I don't know how it will play out. If Mat is going to cause Rand's death, he will do it by making a knowingly risky choice. It won't be as simple as, "I get money," probably more like having to choose between Rand and Tuon somehow.

Neilbert
05-06-2010, 03:41 PM
See above. If it's not a "real" betrayal, what's the point of calling it one?

Because it is something that can/will be bastardized into Judas betraying Jesus.

ckparrothead
05-06-2010, 03:56 PM
Might Mat's potential betrayal tie in somehow with his giving up half the light of the world in order to save the world?

I think we've always cleverly viewed that as him having to somehow lose an eye, and there are other viewings that suggest this.

But maybe it's worth re-thinking?

ckparrothead
05-06-2010, 04:02 PM
And I tend to agree that the Judas parallel doesn't come off as potent if it's accidental. That's not betrayal. That's just literary irony. It would be ironic that Mat leaves the medallion behind for noble reasons and it ends up used to kill Rand. But it's not a betrayal in really any sense of the word. It would also be ironic that at one point the beotches tried to insist on taking the medallion away from Mat, and Rand ordered them nice and firm-like that they weren't going to take that medallion away from him, that he "earned" it. That's also literary irony, not Rand accidentally betraying himself.

But I don't think there's any need for defensiveness over it, I think it just means that the very detailed scenario that Terez laid out needs a few different details.

Neilbert
05-06-2010, 06:15 PM
The whole point is that it isn't a betrayal in the literal sense. It's a story that might get retold a few dozen times, where details get mixed around and suddenly Thom is the hero of the story breathing fire and Mat is selling out Rand over a medallion instead of losing his medallion for whatever reason and it hurting Rand.

Mat is the kind of guy who would see giving away his medallion, and then the medallion being used to kill Rand, as a sort of betrayal. He would feel really guilty about it anyways.

Crispin's Crispian
05-06-2010, 06:56 PM
And I tend to agree that the Judas parallel doesn't come off as potent if it's accidental. That's not betrayal. That's just literary irony. It would be ironic that Mat leaves the medallion behind for noble reasons and it ends up used to kill Rand. But it's not a betrayal in really any sense of the word. It would also be ironic that at one point the beotches tried to insist on taking the medallion away from Mat, and Rand ordered them nice and firm-like that they weren't going to take that medallion away from him, that he "earned" it. That's also literary irony, not Rand accidentally betraying himself.

But I don't think there's any need for defensiveness over it, I think it just means that the very detailed scenario that Terez laid out needs a few different details.
I don't think Terez was getting defensive (not really)...and hopefully you didn't mean me. ;)

Otherwise, we're on the same page.

The whole point is that it isn't a betrayal in the literal sense. It's a story that might get retold a few dozen times, where details get mixed around and suddenly Thom is the hero of the story breathing fire and Mat is selling out Rand over a medallion instead of losing his medallion for whatever reason and it hurting Rand.

Mat is the kind of guy who would see giving away his medallion, and then the medallion being used to kill Rand, as a sort of betrayal. He would feel really guilty about it anyways.
I guess you could see it that way. RJ definitely didn't mean for parallels to be that close--he took parallels, threw them into a blender, and poured us the results.

Ann Kalagon
05-06-2010, 08:02 PM
"Justice" being not Callandor, and maybe a real sword at that?

I am not sure of the reference for "Justice" but might it be the sword Avienda gave Rand, Terez?

As far as which Seanchan is referenced in Egwene's dream, there are only three Seanchan women significant enough in the plot so far to be "it". Tuon is by far the most likely bet based on the significance of her character. But then we have only seen her fight one time, that was in the street fight when she was in a village with Mat (at work, don't have books here) as far as I remember, and I do not now remember the details of that incident.

I really do think there is a role to play in healing Rand for Nynaeve, somehow, in the end game, whether or not it is a "ripping out" or otherwise.

Terez
05-06-2010, 08:16 PM
Ah, Brandon confirmed that Rand's new sword that he got in The Gathering Storm is Justice, Artur Hawkwing's sword. I think he still has Laman's sword (the one Aviendha gave him), but he's been carrying Justice.

Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.

Marie Curie 7
05-06-2010, 11:17 PM
Some more comments about the sword...

When Rand started carrying around the mysterious sword in TGS, and we learned later that it was Justice, I really wondered what the point was. It seemed kind of odd to introduce such a thing so late in the series unless there was a specific and significant purpose associated with it. The idea that Tuon will take up Justice goes a long way toward making the role and importance of Justice clear.

Sure, it's possible that Justice will be used in the series in some other way, and even perhaps in some other way by Tuon. But the connection between Tuon and Justice through Hawkwing is clear, and this theory links that very nicely to both Rand's death and Egwene's dreams.

We know that the Seanchan woman's face is fuzzy in Egwene's dream. Perhaps this is because Tuon wasn't yet Empress at the time of Egwene's dream, or perhaps it's because Egeanin takes it up first to deliver to Tuon. Regardless, the sword appeared solid in the dream, suggesting that it is somehow significant:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 20 - In the Night

Suddenly a woman appeared, clambering down the sheer side of the cliff out of the clouds, making her way as deftly as if she were walking down stairs. There was a sword strapped to her back. Her face wavered, never settling clearly, but the sword seemed as solid as the stone. The woman reached Egwene's level and held out one hand. "We can reach the top together," she said in a familiar drawling accent.

So, if Rand is killed and Egeanin delivers Justice to Tuon, it will most likely be when the forces of Light are despondent over the death of the Dragon Reborn. Egwene and Tuon, as per the dream, will have to work together. This may be because Tuon plays some role in the drama that Egwene still has in her future (the headsman's axe dream and such), or because they realize that they have to pull the forces of Light together to stand against the Shadow (it would certainly take some pretty momentous events for Egwene to work with a Seanchan), or some combination thereof.

Anyway, that was a bit of a rehash, but the other nice thing about Tuon taking up Justice and helping Egwene is that it is probably also connected to this dream:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 10 - Unseen Eyes

A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.

The golden hawk is the Seanchan imperial sigil, so it very likely refers to Tuon. Some might say that it could refer to Berelain, since the golden hawk is also the symbol of Mayene, but I don't know of anything particularly significant that would tie Egwene and Berelain together.

Belazamon
05-06-2010, 11:24 PM
Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.
Welcome to the List, Crispy! We're actually having a party later, if you're interested. Just, y'know, don't have any of the wine.

Crispin's Crispian
05-07-2010, 10:11 AM
Welcome to the List, Crispy! We're actually having a party later, if you're interested. Just, y'know, don't have any of the wine.
Well, that's a surprise. I was actually enjoying the conversation--I didn't realize it had taken a bad turn.

I'll bring my own wine. Or better yet, I'll bring my own beer.

Basel Gill
05-07-2010, 10:15 AM
Well, that's a surprise. I was actually enjoying the conversation--I didn't realize it had taken a bad turn.

I'll bring my own wine. Or better yet, I'll bring my own beer.

Yes. Beer. Good. :)

Tracer Bullet
06-19-2010, 09:07 PM
Taking your theory a bit further makes a ton of sense for Tuon to carry Justice. If you consider what has happened in this theory, the Dragon Reborn being dead, the entire world has been flipped on it's head. Rand is the singular individual that holds the amnesty for male channelers, and with his death the Black Tower will revolt. So with the Last Battle coming and a revolt by the Black Tower to become a ruling force under Taim, how can the light prevail?

I think that the lands would come together under Hawkwing's descendant, Tuon, who now holds the ancestral sword Justice. But, to fight the one power the Seanchan are over matched by the Black Tower and the Dark One. This will force the Seanchan to join with the White Tower and fulfilling Egwene's vision. This force of the Light comprised of the Seanchan with Matt leading it's army (with Rand dead he no longer has his main tie to the Rand Landers), Egwene leading the White Tower, and Logain leading his small faction of male channelers then marches towards the Last Battle.

Just how I see it under your theory.

Terez
06-20-2010, 12:56 AM
Yeah, I am starting to lean that way as well lately. It's hard to see how the Black Tower will be tied into the Battle of Caemlyn (which would presumably be the last fight between the Seanchan and Randland forces), and I don't seem them being simultaneous. Makes the most sense for the Black Tower battle to follow the truce, and Rand's death.

FelixPax
06-20-2010, 06:06 PM
Some more comments about the sword...

When Rand started carrying around the mysterious sword in TGS, and we learned later that it was Justice, I really wondered what the point was. It seemed kind of odd to introduce such a thing so late in the series unless there was a specific and significant purpose associated with it. The idea that Tuon will take up Justice goes a long way toward making the role and importance of Justice clear.


The Dragon Reborn carrying the sword of justice is a clue to readers that the end is near, as a writer from the Fourth Age twice mentions this sword specifically in reference to the ending of the Third Age.


And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

—from Charal Drianaan to Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age

The Eye of the World, 'Header' to Chapter 1 "An Empty Road.


And men cried out to the Creator, praying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the Prophecies, as he was in Ages past and will be in Ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

—from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon,
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


The Great Hunt, 'Footer' in Chapter 50 "After"

Curious to see the various differences in the two sets of texts. Yet the main body of text remains the same overall.

Wonder who will end up writing and or compiling the 'Cycle of the Dragon'? Nesune, Loial or somebody else in the future?


So with the Last Battle coming and a revolt by the Black Tower to become a ruling force under Taim, how can the light prevail?

#1 Idea: Logan & his two Aes Sedai..umm, partners..should be able take out Taim specifically. If it comes down to a fight in the Black Tower.



#2 Idea: Umm...put two, three or yes, four Ta'veren in the area. ;) Just like Toman Head had three or four Ta'veren in the general area. :D


#3 Idea: Or there is a slight chance that Lanfear guiding the linked circle of three including Alivia and Rand holding Callandor, could be able to read all the dirty marks above every Darkfriend on the planet. If Lanfear betrays the Dark One for Rand & the side of the Light, she and the others would be able to kill every Shadowspawn & Dreadlord Asha'man if they have a dirty mark of the kind, say Padan Fain Mordeth and Lanfear would notice.


Conclusion: Elaida's foretelling in front of Alviarin though seems put the idea of Aes Sedai fighting Taim's Asha'man in the Black Tower soon (Elaida's Foretelling found in ACoS,Prologue). Although that might occur in the very last book, AMoL, as I'm not sure how Brandon is going to arrange the all various story lines which need to be tied up. It just feels as if four women are going to be in major trouble soon: Empress Fortuona, Egwene, Elayne, Aviendha.

Empress Fortuona has the a'dam leashing attempt hanging over her neck and an overthrow attempt in the works. Egwene had a Dream connecting her to an Axe possibly cutting her neck off, unless a man ran to stop it in time. Elayne has a Min viewing speaking of distant problem and "a red-hot iron and an axe" (tGH, Ch.43) to deal with soon. Moridin should know Elayne cares for Rand deeply, because Moghedien told him of that connection I believe. Other later evidence of should have confirmed this relationship to Moridin, e.g. Daved Hanlon telling Lady Shiaine he did not do it with Elayne. Aviendha has unfortunately might have a big problem in the Glass Columns ter'angreal when she take Egwene's Twisted Dream Ring into those Glass Columns. Unlike Tar Valon's Columns used during the Accepted Test, Rhuidean's Glass Columns lack channelers to stablize the item of power. I believe there is a great chance that those Glass Columns will be destroyed after Aviendha enters it. Thus, leaving Aviendha in another world alone.

Possible rescuers of Aviendha include I think:

#1 - Herself, by imaging a place in the Physical World as Nynaeve once did during her Accepted Test, and later Egwene did to enter the 3rd Constant from the Physical World.

#2 - Birgitte, find her and taking her out of the Mirror-type World. Aviendha and Birgitte share a common bond with Elayne. That common bond should give just enough information for Birgitte to find Aviendha in that Mirror-type World. Although this situation would require Birgitte finding & using another Twisted Dream Ring. Yes, that's a big if. Yet if anyone can be considered an expert at the 3rd Constant, Dreaming, and finding individuals--it's Birgitte. More so than even Egwene, Amys, Bair, Melaine, and even Lanfear I'd think.

#3 - Lanfear, after escaping the Tower of Ghenjei, by finding Aviendha by using of a finder weave she put on that Silver Kandori necklace patterned with a Snowflakes design. Yes, its uncertain if there is in fact a finder on Aviendha's necklace, nor if Lanfear can really escape from the Eelfinn realm alive. However, its a slim possibility.


I put these ideas in a ranked order of how likely I thought they might actually occur. I do not consider Elayne a good candidate to find Aviendha, mostly because she's pregnant currently which leads her into difficulty to channeling. Plus Birgitte I think would argue she is better at finding people than Elayne is, in this particular realm. Just like Birgitte previously hinted against Elayne going to the Pit of Doom during the Last Battle.



@Marie Curie 7 - Ah, you believe that Egwene's two Dreams of two Seanchan women, are in fact the very same women in the person of Tuon?

Unusual view I think, but I believe I understand how one might get to that point of view.

In my own case, I do not see Tuon ever wearing any Sword. Why? Because I think that would lower Fortuona's eyes to be seen to wear a Sword, as that would make her seem to be a Soldier not a Marshal General. Leilwin (Egeanin) on the other hand wears a Sword over her shoulder as a Naval Sailor would. Elayne, Thom, Domon, Aludra all trust Leilwin and their common views should help change Egwene's stereotype views about all Seanchan being 'evil'. Leilwin is not 'evil', far from it.



Don't feel bad Crispin's Crispian, it happens from time to time. Might I be able to bring beer along and join your party with Basel Gill, Belazamon?



“Elaida often believes what she wants to believe and sees what she wants to see.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 22 "One Answer"

I guess all of us, are guilty of this error of Elaida's from time to time. Some more than others, unfortunately. I'd been as guilty at times (e.g.- thinking ToG rescue was going to occur in tGS instead. Sigh.), yet it seems that Terez prefers a harder absolute line on what she reads than others do.

Maybe one could substitute for Elaida's name, Terez's own name? :o

"Terez often believes what she wants to believe and sees what she wants to see."

When does an Ignore List turn into Ignorance?

FelixPax
06-20-2010, 10:14 PM
Ah, Brandon confirmed that Rand's new sword that he got in The Gathering Storm is Justice, Artur Hawkwing's sword. I think he still has Laman's sword (the one Aviendha gave him), but he's been carrying Justice.

Welcome to the ignore list, Crispy. Never thought you would get that bad.



Terez's clue from a past posting (http://theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=83420&postcount=43)?




Not really. Generally you have a different approach than Naz. If you antagonize anyone in particular in WoT discussion, it's me (or the 3 honored people on my ignore list), but I'm used to it and I can take it, since I know why it happens and came to peace with it some time ago.

What? I antagonize you? Quotes or it hasn't happened.

Looks as if Terez has not come to peace with those who refute her views or bother her in some minor way.

Guess you can join Sodas, Nazbaque, and myself on the Honored List. ;)

Sodas
06-20-2010, 11:01 PM
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb254/gahamm_photos/ohnoes.jpg

I'm on ignore? It can't be true. If that was true, then it wouldn't be possible for her to have trolled my posts. :)

Terez
06-21-2010, 04:02 AM
I don't troll your posts Sodas; I only point out when you're being an idiot (which is often, unfortunately). And neither Naz nor WH is on ignore (and neither is Crispy for that matter).

halo6819
06-22-2010, 01:28 AM
brandon posted this:
Some interesting reading if you're thinking/talking about Gawyn as a character can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sir_Gawain_and_the_Green_Knight#Significance_of_th e_colour_green

and clarified a bit later with:
One other way to think of it is thus: The Wheel will keep on turning, and the Age that we live in (or like unto it) will someday arrive. Legends from what is happening in these books will have survived, and become the Arthur legends during our day. Or, in other cases, stories of other characters have survived in other mythologies. (Look up the Slavic god Perun sometime.)

Perrin is not a god, nor is Gawyn the knight of that story I linked. But perhaps someone who lived long ago, in another Age, gave birth to rumors about a young nobleman who made a mistake, and bore the weight of that sin for the rest of his days. And that gave birth to stories, which in turn inspired a poet to write a tale.

Terez
06-22-2010, 05:30 AM
Yeah, I giggled when I read that because of all the people that objected so strongly to me using Arthurian legend as evidence for my theory. And of course, this all came about in the first place because a fan emailed him requesting that he kill off Gawyn so that Egwene and Galad can get together after all. :D

greatwolf
06-22-2010, 12:38 PM
We know that the Seanchan woman's face is fuzzy in Egwene's dream. Perhaps this is because Tuon wasn't yet Empress at the time of Egwene's dream, or perhaps it's because Egeanin takes it up first to deliver to Tuon. Regardless, the sword appeared solid in the dream, suggesting that it is somehow significant.


The dream also says that the woman reached Egwene's level. At first I thought that meant that Tuon would channel and become a leader among channelers like Tuon, but I can hardly see this happening now. And I think RJ said staright that Tuon will not channel.

Terez
06-22-2010, 08:52 PM
Thom, vardene. Not Tuon.

Terez
06-23-2010, 06:54 AM
Also, I am starting to wonder from Brandon's comments if Gawyn is going to survive killing Rand. It seems unlikely for a lot of reasons, but he does seem to imply that Gawyn will have to live with the burden of his mistake for the rest of his days.

Also, I guess there is a parallel between the girdle and the medallion.

FelixPax
06-23-2010, 11:35 AM
Also, I am starting to wonder from Brandon's comments if Gawyn is going to survive killing Rand. It seems unlikely for a lot of reasons, but he does seem to imply that Gawyn will have to live with the burden of his mistake for the rest of his days.

Or will Rand die in the Last Battle, and Gawyn save Egwene's life soon.

Rand knowing Morgase is alive, threw a wrench in your belief that 'Gawyn will kill Rand with Callandor'. :cool:

Gawyn. Morgase is alive with Galad & Perrin, and they're with to her now. Jahar can you go get Gawyn his mother Morgase, please. ;)

greatwolf
06-23-2010, 07:22 PM
Thom, vardene. Not Tuon.

The post said Tuon, marie.

FelixPax
06-23-2010, 11:46 PM
The post said Tuon, marie.

Okay, Tuon.

I know of exactly zero quotations by Robert Jordan claiming that Tuon cannot channel.

One of ongoing hypotheses I have is that Tuon/Fortuona has indeed channeled at least once previously in her lifetime, as a 'Sparker'.

Terez
06-24-2010, 04:20 AM
Or will Rand die in the Last Battle, and Gawyn save Egwene's life soon.

Rand knowing Morgase is alive, threw a wrench in your belief that 'Gawyn will kill Rand with Callandor'. :cool:

Gawyn. Morgase is alive with Galad & Perrin, and they're with to her now. Jahar can you go get Gawyn his mother Morgase, please. ;)
Have you ever heard of dramatic irony?

Also, I said nothing about Callandor at all.

FelixPax
06-24-2010, 04:45 PM
Have you ever heard of dramatic irony?



Ever heard of 'the Daughter of Night' role according to Dark Prophecy?

jana
06-25-2010, 05:32 AM
You people is crazeh !


It had to be said.

nameless
06-25-2010, 05:38 PM
Ever heard of 'the Daughter of Night' role according to Dark Prophecy?

There's a decent chance she's the one who told the Fades to write that in the first place. We know she was in the area since someone (Perrin IIRC) saw a woman in a white dress hanging out at the abandoned village.

FelixPax
06-26-2010, 08:32 AM
There's a decent chance she's the one who told the Fades to write that in the first place.

That might be possible, however if one looks at scenes in the Stone of Lanfear's negative response to Rand al'Thor desire to follow Prophecies you'd come to a different conclusion.

Lanfear doesn't want Rand to die by following the Prophecies, then. Yet Dark Prophecy claims Rand will die 'serving' the Daughter of the Night.

It just doesn't square. Somebody else wrote the Dark Prophecies, and it was not under Lanfear's influence nor command in the least. A Fate, yes, but a Fate under who's authority?

FelixPax
06-26-2010, 08:37 AM
You people is crazeh !


It had to be said.

Chuckles. ;)

Well, when I finished up my Valan Luca essay ... then find a place to post it ... you tell me if I'm still nutz or not? :D

greatwolf
06-26-2010, 04:48 PM
It just doesn't square. Somebody else wrote the Dark Prophecies, and it was not under Lanfear's influence nor command in the least. A Fate, yes, but a Fate under who's authority?

More important IMO, did RJ ever confirm if it was genuine prophecy?

greatwolf
06-26-2010, 04:54 PM
Double post.

FelixPax
06-26-2010, 07:34 PM
More important IMO, did RJ ever confirm if it was genuine prophecy?

Laugh, what do you think Robert Jordan would say an item planted in the beginning of the series, which is tied to events across the series and one of the biggest climaxes of the whole story?


DS from www.wotism.org: Was the Dark Prophecy in The Great Hunt (Now the Great Lord comes...) a real prophecy, or was it a taunt?

RJ: Read and find out.

Source: Barnes and Noble chat 19 October 1998 (http://www.sevenspokes.com/author/chats.html)


Now is it an accurate prophecy?
You're asking the very same question, that Siuan, Moiraine and Verin each ask after immediately learning of this Prophecy.


Verin refers to the Dark Prophecy directly, when speaking to Rand at the Portalstone next to Stedding Tsofu. Then later Verin starts asking questions about "Lord Luc" in Two Rivers, during Perrin's Two Rivers scenes. Verin knows who Luc is, too. (tGH, Ch.7)


Verin believes its a really Prophecy, based on her later actions.



Likewise Moiraine in her thoughts refers to ties between Toman Head in the Dark Prophecies, other Prophecies, and Vandene's interpretation of the word 'Ma’vron'.

What do you think one of Verin's letters is likely going to about, after all?

greatwolf
06-27-2010, 12:09 PM
Laugh, what do you think Robert Jordan would say an item planted in the beginning of the series, which is tied to events across the series and one of the biggest climaxes of the whole story?


For the record, this is the quote

"I will say nothing, of course, Mother." Verin bowed, but made no move toward the door. "I thought you might wish to see this, Mother." She pulled a small notebook, bound in soft, brown leather, from her belt. "What was written on the walls in the dungeon. There were few problems with translation. Most was the usual – blasphemy and boasting; Trollocs seem to know little else – but there was one part done in a better hand. An educated Darkfriend, or perhaps a Myrddraal. It could be only taunting, yet it has the form of poetry, or song, and the sound of prophecy. We know little of prophecies from the Shadow, Mother."
The Amyrlin hesitated only a moment before nodding. Prophecies from the Shadow, dark prophecies, had an unfortunate way of being fulfilled as well as prophecies from the Light. "Read it to me."
Verin ruffled through the pages, then cleared her throat and began in a calm, level voice.

"Daughter of the Night, she walks again.
The ancient war, she yet fights.
Her new lover she seeks, who shall serve her and die,
yet serve still.
Who shall stand against her coming?
The Shining Walls shall kneel.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The man who channels stands alone.
He gives his friends for sacrifice.
Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying,
one to life eternal.
Which will he choose? Which will he choose?
What hand shelters? What hand slays?
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Luc came to the Mountains of Dhoom.
Isam waited in the high passes.
The hunt is now begun. The Shadow's hounds now
course, and kill.
One did live, and one did die, but both are.
The Time of Change has come.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
The Watchers wait on Toman's Head.
The seed of the Hammer burns the ancient tree.
Death shall sow, and summer burn, before the Great
Lord comes.
Death shall reap, and bodies fail, before the Great
Lord comes.
Again the seed slays ancient wrong, before the Great
Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Now the Great Lord comes.
Blood feeds blood.
Blood calls blood.
Blood is, and blood was, and blood shall ever be.
Now the Great Lord comes

FWIW, the previous chapter was titled "dark prophecy"

But you must consider the source. RJ said it was written by a fade on orders. Whose? What orders? Fain seemed to be in charge of those that left Fal Dara. And he could have inserted tidbits into that prophecy. And we know a SH prototype was among the fades as well, maybe also Lanfear or Ishy (corrupter of prophecies)

Kimon
06-27-2010, 02:12 PM
For the record, this is the quote



FWIW, the previous chapter was titled "dark prophecy"

But you must consider the source. RJ said it was written by a fade on orders. Whose? What orders? Fain seemed to be in charge of those that left Fal Dara. And he could have inserted tidbits into that prophecy. And we know a SH prototype was among the fades as well, maybe also Lanfear or Ishy (corrupter of prophecies)

Parts of the Dark Prophecy have certainly occured (e.g. the reference to the seed of the hammer burning the ancient tree), but the inclusion of questions demonstrates that not all of it can be taken as true prophecy. The remainder can perhaps be equally divided between obvious narrative (like the Isam section) and innuendo (like the will Rand turn to the shadow questions) inserted by Ishamael or Lanfear (or whoever is the poet/poetess- though those seem the most likely sources).

One might also ask, why is it that the reference to the kneeling of the shining walls is part of the Daughter of the Night stanza? This seems to have already occured- the sisters kneeling to Rand after Dumai's Wells, but it could still refer to a future event- perhaps the tower surrendering to Fortuona. Yet neither of these would connect this event to Lanfear in any way.

No doubt Felix will assume that this means that Lanfear will become Tamyrlin...

greatwolf
07-24-2010, 05:53 PM
Okay, Tuon.

I know of exactly zero quotations by Robert Jordan claiming that Tuon cannot channel.

One of ongoing hypotheses I have is that Tuon/Fortuona has indeed channeled at least once previously in her lifetime, as a 'Sparker'.


I thought she meant something else. You could be right Tuon has already channeled but could you explain why the Suldam and Damane wouldn't notice? Especially the ones most loyal top Radhannan?

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 06:57 AM
One might also ask, why is it that the reference to the kneeling of the shining walls is part of the Daughter of the Night stanza?

Rand dirty feet have not washed by the Amyrlin Seat Egwene al'Vere, just yet. Nor has she kneel her knee to the Dragon Reborn, yet. ;)

http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/90037394.jpg?v=1&c=NewsMaker&k=2&d=910C62E22B9F47AADF3273CA25C0BF75815836B6196C7443 538DCC94F42C297E

Sea Folk have a similar prophecy of the Aes Sedai following the Dragon Reborn, which Nynaeve & Elayne did not take too seriously back in tFOH book.

The White Tower shall be broken by his name, and Aes Sedai shall kneel to wash his feet and dry them with their hair.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 - Elayne point of view, with Saimistress Coine speaking, and Nynaeve, Windfinder Jorin

A Sea Folk Prophecy telling of the beginning of a new Age.

. “Not the Prophecies of the Dragon, Aes Sedai. The Jendai Prophecy, the prophecy of the Coramoor. Not the one you wait for and dread; the one we seek, herald of a new Age.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 19 - Elayne point of view, with Saimistress Coine speaking, and Nynaeve, Windfinder Jorin



Just take a look at Rand's comments about Egwene as Amyrlin Seat in tGS book. He does not trust her at all, and seems to view her as Aes Sedai only now. Rand distrusts Aes Sedai (tGS) similarly to how Mordeth did in tEotW book. Rand did not even allow Jahar's Aes Sedai Merise to go with him & Nynaeve to Far Madding.


This seems to have already occured- the sisters kneeling to Rand after Dumai's Wells, but it could still refer to a future event- perhaps the tower surrendering to Fortuona. Yet neither of these would connect this event to Lanfear in any way.

Chuckles, Lanfear already kneeled, bowed to Rand in The Great Hunt, as Selene. Whereas, Egwene al'Vere never has done that once.


The woman laughed musically, but the next instant she was all regal formality, like a queen on her throne. “I am called Selene,” she said. “You have risked your life, and saved mine. I am yours, Lord Rand al’Thor.” And, to Rand’s horror, she knelt before him.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 16, 'In the Mirror of Darkness' - Rand point of view, with Hurin, Loial



No doubt Felix will assume that this means that Lanfear will become Tamyrlin...

Tamyrlin? No, no, no. :)


I see evidence set across the series, pointing to Mierin guiding weaves to re-sealing the Bore--not Rand.


Herid Fel hints as much to Rand in Cairhien, that someone other than the Dragon Reborn will re-seal the Bore:

“No, it was whole in the beginning, and I think it will be whole again when the Third Age comes once more. Hmmm. I wonder if they called it the Third Age?” He hastily dipped a pen and scribbled a note in the margins of an open book. “Umph. No matter now. I’m not saying the Dragon Reborn will be the one to make it whole, not in this Age necessarily anyway, but it must be so before the Third Age comes again, and enough time passed since it was made whole—an Age, at least—that no one remembers the Dark One or his prison. No one remembers. Um. I wonder . . . ”


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 18 "A Taste of Solitude" - Rand al'Thor point of view, with Herid Fel at the Academy of Cairhien


Ha, no one remembers!

Lanfear has knowledge of how the Bore was destroyed in the first place, unlike Rand al'Thor.

Rand drew the first deep breath he had taken since her appearance. Mierin. A name remembered from the glass columns. The woman who had found the Dark One’s prison in the Age of Legends, who had bored into it. Had she known what it was? How had she escaped that fiery doom he had seen?

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 58 "The Traps of Rhuidean" - Rand point of view, with Mierin/Lanfear

Lanfear knows personally how to find the Dark One's prison.

“Oh, he knows. The Great Lord knows more than you would suspect. It is possible to talk with him. Go to Shayol Ghul, into the Pit of Doom, and you can . . . hear him. You can . . . bathe in his presence.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 9 "Decision" - Rand point of view

Just as Selene knew found a doorway into the Illuminator's House in Cairhien, previously.

Selene cut him off. “If he wants to go in, alantin, he needs a door. Such as that one.” She pointed to a dark patch a little down the wall. Even with her telling him, Rand was not certain it was a door, but when she strode to it and pulled, it opened.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 27 "The Shadow in the Night" - Rand point of view, with Loial, Selene in Cairhien

Selene has saved Rand b***, so many times already.


Lanfear also is highly experienced at channeling both Saidar and Saidin, unlike the most channelers of the Third Age.



Mierin is already up to taking on the Dark One:

. “You are beginning to consider my plan, aren’t you? With those, together, the other Chosen will kneel at our feet. We can supplant the Great Lord himself, challenge the Creator. We—”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 6 "Gateway" - Rand point of view, with Mierin/Daughter of the Night

She is fearless.


"Danger adds a certain something,” she said softly."



Daughter of the Night & Dragon Reborn should be part of a linked circle with Alivia, when the Bore is re-sealed. They all should survive that first part, the re-sealing; as the second part is where their ultimate sacrifice shall be made, when Rand using Callandor in a linked circle literally lives up to the name 'Shadowkiller'.

Shadowkiller. A man the wolves hold in awe. A man who can channel.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 31 "On the Scent" - Perrin point of view

Even Mierin claims Callandor is enough. :D


“You half-use the smallest fraction of what you are capable of, and walk away from what would allow you to crush all who come against you. Where is Callandor, Lews Therin?


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" - Rand point of view, with Mierin speaking




The name 'Lanfear' was not given to her by the common people of the Light; but was created by herself as a type of disguise to blend in with the rest of the Chosen. Mierin, is a type of double agent, similar to Verin's character. Yet Mierin character has a different ultimate motive than Verin did, 'love'.

"None of the others is really certain where I stand, and I like it that way. You can expect no open aid from me.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 10 "The Stone Stands" - Rand point of view, with Selene speaking

However, did either Mierin nor Verin fully know what they were getting into earlier? Mierin drilling the Bore like BP, did in the Gulf of Mexico? Or Verin putting herself into a kettle?


The Dragon's rejection of her 'love', is why Mierin later flipped out at the Cairhien docks ... not Rand's rejection of the Shadow & the Chosen.



Moiraine's own line of research, questioning and hope, suggest that she knows how important Mierin's role is in the future. Moiraine could have easily balefired Mierin on the docks of Cairhien, just as she balefired Be'lal in the Heart of the Stone in Tear. However, she specifically pushes Lanfear into the Eelfinn's realm, she was foretold to do.


It was Rand laughing, on his knees on the stones of the quay. Laughing, with tears streaming down a face twisted like a man being put to the question. Moiraine felt a chill. If the madness had him, it was beyond her. She could only do what she could do. What she must do.

The sight of Lanfear hit her like a blow. Not surprise, but the shock of seeing what had been in her dreams so often since Rhuidean.


The Fire of Heaven, Chapter 52 "Choice" - Moiraine point of view


For an instant, Moiraine was silent. She did not want to say too much, but Vandene and Adeleas had more knowledge their fingertips than existed anywhere else but the White Tower, and more complications awaited her there than she cared to deal with now. She let the name slip between her lips as if it were escaping. “Lanfear.”

“For once,” the other woman sighed, “I know not a whit more than I did as a novice. The Daughter of the Night remains as much a mystery as if she truly had cloaked herself in darkness.” She paused, peering into her cup, and when she looked up, her eyes were sharp on Moiraine’s face. “Lanfear was linked to the Dragon, to Lews Therin Telamon. Moiraine, do you have some clue as to where the Dragon will be Reborn? Or was Reborn? Has he come already?”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 22 "Watchers" - Moiraine point of view, with Vandene



Lanfear (LAN-fear):

In the Old Tongue, “Daughter of the Night.” One of the Forsaken, perhaps the most powerful next to Ishamael. Unlike the other Forsaken, she chose this name herself. She is said to have been in love with Lews Therin Telamon.

The Great Hunt, Glossary - Lanfear (LAN-fear):