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JSUCamel
05-05-2010, 10:14 PM
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned my TV on to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, tested and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture-inspected food. Then I took my medicine which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door, I deposit my mail to be sent out by the United States Postal Service as a bus drives by carrying children to the local public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA-approved car back home on the DOT-bult roads to the house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and watch people post about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

Sinistrum
05-05-2010, 10:32 PM
Today the Greek version of Camel woke up to riots in the streets, multiple deaths, his bank burning down, a full government service employee strike that forced everything to shut down, massive impending budget cuts being forced on his country by other countries, massive governmental debt, and the possibility of economic and governmental collapse all because his socalist government spent too fucking much on social programs.

Firseal
05-05-2010, 10:40 PM
Dumb governments exist in all the flavors of the economic-political spectrum. Capitalism's screwed us over just as often, and sometimes far worse.

Of course, even if we put the government in everything, we'd still be capitialist over socialist. You know. Aside from the buzzwords being used by demogogues

Basel Gill
05-05-2010, 11:07 PM
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned my TV on to one of the FCC-regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, tested and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating my breakfast of US Department of Agriculture-inspected food. Then I took my medicine which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory, I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration-approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state and federal Departments of Transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve Bank. On the way out the door, I deposit my mail to be sent out by the United States Postal Service as a bus drives by carrying children to the local public school.

After work, I drive my NHTSA-approved car back home on the DOT-bult roads to the house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all its valuables thanks to the local police department.

I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and watch people post about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

What is missing here is how these things came into being to begin with. A government did NOT invent the clock, learn how to harness and use electricity, develop the process of cleansing water or discover the microorganisms in it for that matter. A government did not research and develop your medications, etc. etc. etc. I could go on ad nauseum.

Government does NOT innovate, it regulates and administrates. Functions which in fact ARE its province, but like the saying goes...too many cooks in the kitchen...

Jokeslayer
05-05-2010, 11:21 PM
What is missing here is how these things came into being to begin with. A government did NOT invent the clock, learn how to harness and use electricity, develop the process of cleansing water or discover the microorganisms in it for that matter. A government did not research and develop your medications, etc. etc. etc. I could go on ad nauseum.

Government does NOT innovate, it regulates and administrates. Functions which in fact ARE its province, but like the saying goes...too many cooks in the kitchen...

I'm afraid this thread may have reached ad nauseum long before you got here.

Ivhon
05-05-2010, 11:28 PM
What is missing here is how these things came into being to begin with. A government did NOT invent the clock, learn how to harness and use electricity, develop the process of cleansing water or discover the microorganisms in it for that matter. A government did not research and develop your medications, etc. etc. etc. I could go on ad nauseum.

Government does NOT innovate, it regulates and administrates. Functions which in fact ARE its province, but like the saying goes...too many cooks in the kitchen...

And yet, without government presence in almost all of the things that Camel mentioned (USPS isnt government anymore, is it? If so, that could be let go, I reckon) we have already seen what happens: Enron, poisonous/fraudulent food and drugs, toxic carcinogenic water, education for only the very rich, porn on tv at all hours - or nothing but commercials, Pintos, etc.

And a few of those things actually were developed by the government....for military purposes, true, but whatever. The government is clearly capable of being quite innovative when it needs to be.

Belazamon
05-05-2010, 11:30 PM
This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy...

... I then log on to the internet, which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and watch people post about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

Today the Greek version of Camel woke up to riots in the streets, multiple deaths, his bank burning down, a full government service employee strike that forced everything to shut down, massive impending budget cuts being forced on his country by other countries, massive governmental debt, and the possibility of economic and governmental collapse all because his socalist government spent too fucking much on social programs.
This, my friends, is Theoryland encapsulated.

Matoyak
05-06-2010, 12:39 AM
Copied/pasted from Facebook? Awh, c'mon Camel, normally you're wittier than that. :(

ShadowbaneX
05-06-2010, 01:38 AM
Today the Greek version of Camel woke up to riots in the streets, multiple deaths, his bank burning down, a full government service employee strike that forced everything to shut down, massive impending budget cuts being forced on his country by other countries, massive governmental debt, and the possibility of economic and governmental collapse all because his socalist government spent too fucking much on social programs.
I thought the Greek government was in trouble, not because of social programs, but because it cooked the books, the entire national books, for three years in order to attract enough attention to get into the EU and then let everything collapse...

Neilbert
05-06-2010, 01:51 AM
Cooked the books?
Goldman Sachs involved?
I... I know this song. :eek:

A libertarian calling it a failure of socialism... :confused:

Firseal
05-06-2010, 02:52 AM
Goddamn socialists! Cooking the books is a capitalist tradition! Stop stealing our bad ideas!

Bryan Blaire
05-06-2010, 07:24 AM
Was just going to point out that depending on where any fruit you may have had for breakfast (or during the day), it may not have been inspected by USDA any more, but sadly may have been inspected by Customs and Border Protection. :(

USPS is no longer a 100% gov't agency though, Ivhon is correct.

That said, I didn't see much socialism in Camel's post, since just about everything written was discussing regulations/regulatory agencies and not government run industries...

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2010, 07:39 AM
Obviously, having the government interfere with the business of businesses in any way, shape or form is socialism. Duh!

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 09:22 AM
That said, I didn't see much socialism in Camel's post, since just about everything written was discussing regulations/regulatory agencies and not government run industries...

See:

Obviously, having the government interfere with the business of businesses in any way, shape or form is socialism. Duh!

What is actually primarily regulation, the right is calling socialism.

DahLliA
05-06-2010, 10:06 AM
wonder if we'll make it through the first page before the first insult :p

*jumps on the ESC with a beer*

Basel Gill
05-06-2010, 10:18 AM
In a small addition to my earlier post.

There is a balance that must be struck between businesses/corporations/innovators and government/regulators/administrators.

Neither are inherently bad. Either one run amok is a recipe for disaster. Throwing all ones support behind one side at the expense of the other is also a recipe for disaster. No one in their right mind would implicity trust a business to always do the right thing and neither should one be naive enough to think that their government always has the best intentions.

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 10:32 AM
In a small addition to my earlier post.

There is a balance that must be struck between businesses/corporations/innovators and government/regulators/administrators.

I agree. I'm all for regulation, but I'm against gov't taking over industries. The issue at hand here is that I don't believe the government is taking over the healthcare industry, while the right tends to think that is the case.

Neither are inherently bad. Either one run amok is a recipe for disaster. Throwing all ones support behind one side at the expense of the other is also a recipe for disaster. No one in their right mind would implicity trust a business to always do the right thing and neither should one be naive enough to think that their government always has the best intentions.

I agree with most of that, but I would, in general, disagree with your last statement. No one wakes up in the morning and thinks "Hmm, how can I screw over the American people today?"

What happens is that a politician sees what they perceive to be a problem, and then they settle on what they perceive to be the best solution. The problems are twofold: sometimes there's not really a problem, and sometimes the solution is not the best solution.

An iPad is an example of the first problem, and I gave an example of the second problem a while back. If I have a stopped up toilet (that is beyond the aid of a simple plunger) for some reason, I, not being a plumber, may decide to use Draino. Sei'taer, a much wiser man in terms of that kind of thing, might use one of those snake tools that plumbers have.

I certainly have no wish to blow up my toilet or septic tank, but that may be a side effect of using Draino when it comes into contact with chemicals there.

ST's tool would be better suited for the problem, but costs more money.

Now both of us have the best intentions, but one of the solutions isn't a great idea.

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2010, 11:16 AM
No one wakes up in the morning and thinks "Hmm, how can I screw over the American people today?"You underestimate power of the Force. I think that you've just given a good description of the wake up routine of Dick Cheney.

Now both of us have the best intentions, but one of the solutions isn't a great idea.That's why Joe the Plumber has gone into politics, then, isn't it?

Ivhon
05-06-2010, 11:21 AM
In a small addition to my earlier post.

There is a balance that must be struck between businesses/corporations/innovators and government/regulators/administrators.

Neither are inherently bad. Either one run amok is a recipe for disaster. Throwing all ones support behind one side at the expense of the other is also a recipe for disaster. No one in their right mind would implicity trust a business to always do the right thing and neither should one be naive enough to think that their government always has the best intentions.

You, sir, speak sense.


Most of the time. :D

Ivhon
05-06-2010, 11:27 AM
I agree with most of that, but I would, in general, disagree with your last statement. No one wakes up in the morning and thinks "Hmm, how can I screw over the American people today?"



I don't believe anyone in politics - even Dick Cheney - thinks that. Not Obama, not even W. as misguided as I think he was. I think our politicians are not OUT to screw us over...beyond taking a little somethin somethin on the side. I think they get distracted with party politics way more than they should - which makes some policymaking misguided. But I dont think there are any folks out there that are willfully screwing over America.

Business, on the other hand, is another story. You had people at Enron laughing about how they were screwing over little old ladies.

This is why I trust government slightly more than I trust big business.

ShadowbaneX
05-06-2010, 11:28 AM
I agree. I'm all for regulation, but I'm against gov't taking over industries. The issue at hand here is that I don't believe the government is taking over the healthcare industry, while the right tends to think that is the case.

I thought it was that the right knew that it wasn't the case, but wanted to make the populous at large believe that it was the case so that it could get back into power.

Basel Gill
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
I don't believe anyone in politics - even Dick Cheney - thinks that. Not Obama, not even W. as misguided as I think he was. I think our politicians are not OUT to screw us over...beyond taking a little somethin somethin on the side. I think they get distracted with party politics way more than they should - which makes some policymaking misguided. But I dont think there are any folks out there that are willfully screwing over America.

Business, on the other hand, is another story. You had people at Enron laughing about how they were screwing over little old ladies.

This is why I trust government slightly more than I trust big business.

You speak sense as well. Most of the time.:D

I don't necessarily trust BIG business either. I trust the business that NEEDS to do a good job to STAY in business. Usually a small/medium one. Most businesses these days don't NEED to do a good job because your personal money, in the greater scheme of things, is irrelevant. I'm not always faithful to this idea, but I try to make a concious decision to avoid chains when possible and support local businesses for that reason. They NEED me to come back because my $10 a week and that of the people I tell could make or break them.

Ivhon
05-06-2010, 11:40 AM
You speak sense as well. Most of the time.:D

I don't necessarily trust BIG business either. I trust the business that NEEDS to do a good job to STAY in business. Usually a small/medium one. Most businesses these days don't NEED to do a good job because your personal money, in the greater scheme of things, is irrelevant. I'm not always faithful to this idea, but I try to make a concious decision to avoid chains when possible and support local businesses for that reason. They NEED me to come back because my $10 a week and that of the people I tell could make or break them.

Yeah...I try to do this as well. When we moved to Austin 3 years ago, Msivhon and I swore to never eat at another (national...local chains are ok) chain restaraunt again (pretty easy to do here). We have held true for dinner and breakfast, although we have slipped on lunch here and there. I don't drink Starbucks because we have a really nice organic coffee shop on the next block...its a bit more expensive, but the nice French guy that runs it is always there and takes good care of you.

EDIT: To your point on politics - I think it is a workable analogy to say Big Business:National Politics :: Small Business:Local Politics

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 12:01 PM
EDIT: To your point on politics - I think it is a workable analogy to say Big Business:National Politics :: Small Business:Local Politics

Works for me!

Verin Mathwin
05-06-2010, 02:46 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QDv4sYwjO0

Neilbert
05-06-2010, 04:44 PM
I don't believe anyone in politics - even Dick Cheney - thinks that. ... Business, on the other hand, is another story. You had people at Enron laughing about how they were screwing over little old ladies.

Dick Cheney is also a businessman and served on the Haliburton Board of Directors. He is actually comic villain evil.

Ivhon
05-06-2010, 04:55 PM
Dick Cheney is also a businessman and served on the Haliburton Board of Directors. He is actually comic villain evil.

Im really trying to be gracious, here, and not launch into a diatribe about my true feelings about the...man.

Sinistrum
05-06-2010, 08:49 PM
No one wakes up in the morning and thinks "Hmm, how can I screw over the American people today?"

What happens is that a politician sees what they perceive to be a problem, and then they settle on what they perceive to be the best solution. The problems are twofold: sometimes there's not really a problem, and sometimes the solution is not the best solution.

And this is where I disagree with you Camel. I think most politicians wake up thinking some variant of "how can I screw over the American people today?" That may not be the language they choose to frame it in, but I think power, money, and fame, and more importantly how they can get more of it at the expensive of others is always on the mind of your average politician. That applies to both Republicans and Democrats. And it is precisely why I distrust government more than I distrust business. At least business doesn't try to couch their greed and powergrabassery in terms of "for the good of the people." They are out to make a profit and make no bones about it. I'd rather deal with just plain greedy without the coercive power of government to back up that greed, as opposed to greedy, dishonest, and with government might at their back.

Basel Gill
05-07-2010, 09:25 AM
This is true. Human failings are easy to predict. The majority of people will fail when faced with the opportunity for money and power vs. being altruistic. I would also rather have to deal with a group who is at least up front about it.

However, (I cannot believe that I am saying this), big business run amok is how many early industries ended up screwing over workers (steel, coal, textiles, etc.). This is how we ended up with unions in the first place. Business that deals in items that are fairly irreplaceable in our culture (energy primarily comes to mind) do have quite the advantage and without a certain amount of regulation would literally screw themselves out of business.

I'd love to believe that politicians and business would strive to "do the right thing" on a regular basis and then we could just abolish government altogether and move on, but it seems the only way to at least marginally ensure that people don't get squashed in the middle is for there to be a balance between the free market and regulations. Sucks, but true.

JSUCamel
05-07-2010, 10:19 AM
I'd love to believe that politicians and business would strive to "do the right thing" on a regular basis and then we could just abolish government altogether and move on, but it seems the only way to at least marginally ensure that people don't get squashed in the middle is for there to be a balance between the free market and regulations. Sucks, but true.

I think most of us can agree with this. The problem comes from where we each believe we should draw the line. Conservatives would draw the line closer to free market, liberals would draw it closer to regulation (which doesn't really make sense to me from a language context, but whatever).

Basel Gill
05-07-2010, 10:26 AM
Exactly and the actual (and political) problem lies with finding equilibrium (Spelling?). That is an extremely hard thing to do because no one has ever REALLY gotten it right yet and because too far to one side or the other might be too far to remedy. This encapsulates the reason I would TEND to err on the side of the market and less regulation. It is much easier to give up freedom than it is to get it back. Once it's gone, it's usually gone for good unless the government crumbles or someone who is genuinely altruistic AND can rally support gets elected.

Sinistrum
05-07-2010, 12:58 PM
http://www.badmovieplanet.com/unknownmovies/pictures/equilibrium2.jpg

Found it. Oh wait, you weren't talking about the movie.

Basel Gill
05-07-2010, 01:59 PM
Never heard of that one, but sounds good. Was it?

Sei'taer
05-07-2010, 04:40 PM
Never heard of that one, but sounds good. Was it?

Christian Bale + Taye Diggs = Suckass movie

Birgitte
05-07-2010, 05:22 PM
Christian Bale + Taye Diggs = Suckass movie

Come on! It's the movie that invented Gunkata (or however they decided to spell it)! I don't care who is in it; it was badass and kinda interesting.

Sinistrum
05-07-2010, 07:48 PM
Don't listen to Sei. Its badass. Its also got Sean Bean, Emily Watson, and Domenic Purcel in it.

Mort
05-08-2010, 04:31 AM
Equilibrium kicked ass :)

DahLliA
05-08-2010, 09:41 AM
Equilibrium kicked ass :)

this. love the ending when he goes totally bad-ass