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Hopper
05-06-2010, 11:22 AM
This is just nucking futs.

Students kicked out of school (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.html)

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2010, 11:37 AM
Man, do those kids never learn?
I mean, everyone knows that someone wearing the wrong thing is reason to start a fight (or do other things), so this should be no surprise at all. They were just asking for it.

Ivhon
05-06-2010, 11:48 AM
This is just nucking futs.

Students kicked out of school (http://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local-beat/Students-Wearing-American-Flag-Shirts-Sent-Home-92945969.html)

Im not so sure.

The kids are not 18 and therefore have limited 1st amendment rights. The school was very clear about the reasoning behind the directive and that they could wear the colors on any other day. The students face no additional punishment other than missing a day of school (look for ALL the kids to be wearing red/white/blue next year).

Now, we have no idea how credible the reasoning of inciting fights would be at this school...might be trumped up, might not be.

I don't necessarily agree with the school's decision, but I think there is a valid point in there somewhere.

EDIT: I made an assumption that the kids are under 18. If they are 18, that might change things a bit.

GonzoTheGreat
05-06-2010, 12:09 PM
What is that obsession with "if they are young enough to learn, then they should learn not to express themselves freely"?

Prohibiting a KKK badge on all days would make sense, prohibiting it only on MLK day would seem rather stupid. Prohibiting it on MLK day, but only for pupils under 18, is even more inane.
But how is that hypothetical case any different from this one?

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 01:18 PM
The school was very clear about the reasoning behind the directive and that they could wear the colors on any other day.

From the article:

But to many Mexican-American students at Live Oak, this was a big deal. They say they were offended by the five boys and others for wearing American colors on a Mexican holiday.

I call shenanigans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo
to a paper published by the UCLA Center for the Study of Latino Health and Culture about the origin of the observance of Cinco de Mayo in the United States, the modern American focus on that day first started in California in the 1860s in response to the resistance to French rule in Mexico.[16] The 2007 paper notes that "The holiday, which has been celebrated in California continuously since 1863, is virtually ignored in Mexico."[16]

Sei'taer
05-06-2010, 03:50 PM
From the article:



I call shenanigans.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinco_de_Mayo

Yeah, I was talking to Camel about this earlier. I had a long and hilarious conversation with a foreman I work around who is from Mexico. He said they don't celebrate the holiday because it is based on one single battle they had with the French many years ago called the battle of Puebla.

He said in Mexico they call it Corona day, and don't celebrate it, because a few years ago Corona (Budweiser) beer started pushing for it to be an accpeted and celebrated holiday in the US so they could sell more "imported" beer here (I don't know how true this is, but I am taking him at his word).

I offered a suggestion for my own holiday, but Camel didn't think it was very PC so he shot it down. I'll think of something, buddy.

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 04:30 PM
I offered a suggestion for my own holiday, but Camel didn't think it was very PC so he shot it down. I'll think of something, buddy.

It wasn't very PC at all, but very, very funny.

Zanguini
05-06-2010, 10:55 PM
well tomarrow marks the 581st anniversary of the end of the siege of Orleans in which Joan of Arc pulled an arrow from her shoulder and rallied the french troops who went on to win the hundred years war...


No American Tshirts tomorrow.

JSUCamel
05-06-2010, 11:05 PM
well tomarrow marks the 581st anniversary of the end of the siege of Orleans in which Joan of Arc pulled an arrow from her shoulder and rallied the french troops who went on to win the hundred years war...


No American Tshirts tomorrow.

Siete de Mayo! Joan of Arc day! Freedom fries!

Zanguini
05-07-2010, 08:49 AM
Siete de Mayo! Joan of Arc day! Freedom fries!

psst.... septième le mai

french not spanish

JSUCamel
05-07-2010, 09:17 AM
psst.... septième le mai

french not spanish

No hablo french.

Sei'taer
05-07-2010, 03:47 PM
No hablo french.

Oh, I know a lot of french. "Fronch fries, fronch dressing, fronch bread and to drink...peru!"










How's that for a little known, little used, movie quote?

Sinistrum
05-07-2010, 06:49 PM
I don't really see how what they did could be considered "incitement." I'm generally in favor of schools telling kids to stfu, sit down, and pay attention in class, but I'm not really sure where they are getting "incitement" from.

GonzoTheGreat
05-08-2010, 03:03 AM
I'm generally in favor of schools telling kids to stfu, sit down, and pay attention in class, ...Could you please try to explain to me how those children, if they learn to be such obedient drones as you want them to be, could then suddenly learn how to be free and independent citizens during their 18th birth day?

From what I know of it, the major idea of schooling is to teach that which the students should learn so that they can later on practice it. Teaching all inhabitants to stfu will prepare them quite well for living under a fascist or communist regime, but it does not seem such a good preparation for being citizens in a country with a goverment "of the people, and for the people". Having opinions of their own, being able to defend those logically, and knowing that they would have to drop them if the opponents have a better argument, would seem a far better preparation to me.

JSUCamel
05-08-2010, 09:52 AM
Could you please try to explain to me how those children, if they learn to be such obedient drones as you want them to be, could then suddenly learn how to be free and independent citizens during their 18th birth day?

From what I know of it, the major idea of schooling is to teach that which the students should learn so that they can later on practice it. Teaching all inhabitants to stfu will prepare them quite well for living under a fascist or communist regime, but it does not seem such a good preparation for being citizens in a country with a goverment "of the people, and for the people". Having opinions of their own, being able to defend those logically, and knowing that they would have to drop them if the opponents have a better argument, would seem a far better preparation to me.

*swoon* have rep, if i can give it

Sinistrum
05-08-2010, 10:29 AM
Could you please try to explain to me how those children, if they learn to be such obedient drones as you want them to be, could then suddenly learn how to be free and independent citizens during their 18th birth day?

Why does it not surprise me that you can't tell the difference between someone not wanting a kid to act up in class, and be your typical teenager, and someone not wanting them to expressing a legitimate, well thought out opinion (the teaching of which is typically the goal of having them pay attention in class and shutting the fuck up)? You'd think all teenagers are little socrates or william penns with all the license you want to give them to act out. Most of these kids can't think past their own hormones and/or deficient attention spans.

GonzoTheGreat
05-08-2010, 11:36 AM
Why does it not surprise me that you can't tell the difference between someone not wanting a kid to act up in class, and be your typical teenager, and someone not wanting them to expressing a legitimate, well thought out opinion (the teaching of which is typically the goal of having them pay attention in class and shutting the fuck up)? You'd think all teenagers are little socrates or william penns with all the license you want to give them to act out. Most of these kids can't think past their own hormones and/or deficient attention spans.In which case they'll all have the same Barbara Streisand t-shirt*. If any of them wear anything else (like that US flag thing), then that would seem to suggest that they have indeed done some thinking about it. At which point you want to stamp on their individualism, and I say that they aren't doing anything aggressive themselves, so why bother them?

If someone starts throwing punches because of those flags, then teach that kid how to behave. If all they do is argue it vehemently in their break times, using William Penn quotes, then what's the harm in that?

In other words: react to the actual disturbance, instead of acting on the fear that there might be such a disturbance. Showing fear in the face of anyone isn't a particularly good idea, and having the school show fear in the face of its pupils like this is probably worse than most reactions one could come up with here.
Teaching those children that the school board will give in to the threat of violence from Mexicans isn't the lesson you want the little kiddies to learn, is it?

* Or whatever is currently hot. Teenagers being as inane as they are, it could indeed be La Streisand right now.

Sinistrum
05-08-2010, 12:59 PM
Did you not read the part of my original post where pointed out that I didn't see any threat of "incitement" out of what the kids in this specific instance were doing? ;) Or were you in too much of a rush to grandstand, yet again.

Uno
05-08-2010, 02:08 PM
I'm going to be politically incorrect and say that the lesson taught in this case is that if you whine about how something offends you, even though no offence may actually have been intended, you might well get your way. If you consider any kind of public career, that's actually a lesson you might benefit from quite a lot. Just watch what preoccupies the news media at any given day.

irerancincpkc
05-08-2010, 07:58 PM
Yeah, not sure I totally agree with this, but I'm sure those teenage boys were wearing the material on that day just to try and make a stir. Jerks.

RogueSavior
05-09-2010, 12:37 AM
This is absolutely ridiculous. Generally speaking, I'm a pretty tolerant guy.

But celebrating another nation's holidays on any governmental level is ridiculous. If an immigrant family, or its descendants, wants to celebrate the holidays of their homeland.

This is entirely ridiculous. 10,000% ridiculous.

Birgitte
05-09-2010, 12:39 AM
This is absolutely ridiculous. Generally speaking, I'm a pretty tolerant guy.

But celebrating another nation's holidays on any governmental level is ridiculous. If an immigrant family, or its descendants, wants to celebrate the holidays of their homeland.

This is entirely ridiculous. 10,000% ridiculous.

Cinco de Mayo isn't celebrated in Mexico. It's like Mexican St. Patrick's Day.

RogueSavior
05-09-2010, 01:13 AM
It isn't like 'Mexican St. Patrick's Day.' It's much more similar to 'Mexican President's Day' or 'Mexican VJ Day', as something that just kind of passes. It's a nothing holiday, which Americans take as an excuse to get drunk during the week in May.

The issue I have arises when the State of California sanctions a Holiday commemorating a foreign army's victory against a foreign army - which occurred 12 years after they became a STATE in the United States. Like others ran with before, it would be like commemorating one of Joan of Arc's victories or the fall of the Bastille on a State level.

To then punish ANYONE for not 'respecting' a foreign holiday on American soil is preposterous.

Ozymandias
05-09-2010, 01:21 AM
I've got to agree with RS. Now, normally, I'm very much opposed to the whole red white and blue crew who are all about not liking immigrants and all. I think everyone deserves equal respect. That said, we ARE in America, and Cinco de Mayo is not an official holiday here except on college campuses (having just celebrated it, I know lol). Its an outrage these kids are being punished for this. For the record I think they're complete tools who will probably end up bagging my groceries one day because a.) who the fuck wears an American flag bandana? and b.) it is a tiny bit disrespectful. That said, its not the place of the school to punish them, not for not respecting another country's fake holiday. Hell, you'd have to arrest me every 6//14 if that were the case, as I always do something anti-French on that day.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2010, 04:01 AM
Did you not read the part of my original post where pointed out that I didn't see any threat of "incitement" out of what the kids in this specific instance were doing? ;) Or were you in too much of a rush to grandstand, yet again.If the whole idea of telling kids to stfu up was irrelevant in this case, then why did you bring it up at all?
I assumed (incorrectly, apparently) that you had a reason for mentioning it. Sorry about that.

Sinistrum
05-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Well Gonzo, if someone who supports one position as a general rule, thinks a specific instance of that position being taken is a bad idea, it tends to lend credence to that position in the specific instance being a bad idea. But then again, I guess I'm not surprised that you're not familiar with the concept of opposition support adding credibility to a thought. Most of your thoughts are so far out there that its probably pretty rare for someone who generally opposes them to agree with you.

JSUCamel
05-09-2010, 10:34 AM
That said, its not the place of the school to punish them, not for not respecting another country's fake holiday.

But that's the point. It's NOT another country's fake holiday. It's OUR fake holiday. Mexico doesn't even celebrate Cinco de Mayo, so it's not their holiday to begin with.

StrangePackage
05-09-2010, 10:46 AM
Patriotism good.

Jingoism bad.


It's a fine line, but it's one I hold to.

I have no problem with people demonstrating their pride in the nation in which they live by fondly and reverently displaying national symbols to elicit pride.

I have a lot of problems with people using symbols of their nation in order to alienate, threaten, intimidate, or antagonize people with a different national heritage than their own.

I don't know which of those two scenarios this event fell under, but I deeply love and respect this country, and would hate for it's symbols to be used for the latter.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2010, 12:00 PM
But celebrating another nation's holidays on any governmental level is ridiculous.Very recently, I've been to an occasion where it was demonstrated that your claim is not always correct: remembrance day.
The Netherlands and Belgium have different remembrance days (4th of May for one, and 11th of November for the other).
In the Netherlands, there is a national celebration in Amsterdam at 8 PM, and at the same time in just about every other town and village* too. The one that I visit each year is also attended by an official representative of the Belgian government. Usually that's some embassy employee, occasionally it is the actual embassador. This is because at that place a number of Belgian resistance fighters (and even more Dutch ones) had been executed by the Nazis, which is why it was turned into a monument for remembrance in the first place.
In that case, having a foreign government officially 'celebrate' (not really the right word here, I think you'll agree) makes perfect sense.

* Or relevant place outside it.

GonzoTheGreat
05-09-2010, 12:05 PM
Well Gonzo, if someone who supports one position as a general rule, thinks a specific instance of that position being taken is a bad idea, it tends to lend credence to that position in the specific instance being a bad idea. But then again, I guess I'm not surprised that you're not familiar with the concept of opposition support adding credibility to a thought. Most of your thoughts are so far out there that its probably pretty rare for someone who generally opposes them to agree with you.I also disagree with the general point that children should only be taught how to obey.

I think that in this case we do agree that it is ridiculous to repress the ones that aren't violent, so as "not to give the bullies an excuse".

I am not a lawyer (as you probably know), but it seems to me that this case (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tinker_v._Des_Moines_Independent_Community_School_ District) is fairly close to the one we're now discussing.

Frenzy
05-09-2010, 06:00 PM
My guess is that the Live Oak admins over-reacted to a potential situation. The 4 in USA shirts may have been trying to provoke something, or not. The Admins may have been trying to prevent something from happening, which knowing that school isn't beyond the realm of possibility.

But sometimes when you try to prevent a potential problem, you create one.

The Principal apologized, though. Eventually.