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Terez
05-08-2010, 06:31 AM
Join the faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=189). I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page (http://www.theoryland.com/index.php).

(Fixed the faction link - Tam).

Gareth Tomlinson
05-08-2010, 07:42 AM
Wow, that was an extensive read. Yeah i can definatley see how you came to that summation. In some ways i hope you're way off the mark, so that when i read ToM i am completley surprised. However alot of what you've written makes sense....

I totally forgot about people experiencing their past lives via Portal stones in TGH.

I want to know what Perrin did and how Mat betrays Rand...

Terez
05-08-2010, 07:52 AM
I think I blew the surprise. In some ways, I feel bad about that. But theories are what we do. There is even more evidence I've found since I posted the theory. Some of it is in the comments; some of it is on comments on other sites (tor.com, rafo.com, Dragonmount, and 13th Depository). Will hopefully organize it all into a proper post soon.

Kimon
05-08-2010, 10:32 AM
Join the faction (http://www.theoryland.com/useradmin.php?func=7&rec=189). I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page (http://www.theoryland.com/index.php).

If you tie in Gawain parallels too, those will cut both ways, since he died (from the lingering wound that Lancelot gave him at Benwick) just prior to the Battle of Camlann. It was the ghost of Gawain that came to Arthur before the battle and warned him that if he fought against Mordred the next day that he would die.

Terez
05-08-2010, 11:55 AM
If you tie in Gawain parallels too, those will cut both ways, since he died (from the lingering wound that Lancelot gave him at Benwick) just prior to the Battle of Camlann. It was the ghost of Gawain that came to Arthur before the battle and warned him that if he fought against Mordred the next day that he would die.
I knew the bit about Gawain's unhealed wound, but not about the ghost. Another interesting thing about Gawain is that his power is dependent on the sun, so that he is most powerful at noon (though I gather this is only in some of the tales...but definitely the older ones). Since the foreshadowing indicates that Gawyn will kill Rand at noon, then this makes sense.

In any case, Gawyn is both Gawain and Mordred, since RJ spread the Arthur parallels among several characters. The Battle of Caemlyn will essentially be Arthur vs. Arthur, in that it is Rand vs. the Seanchan (Hawkwing's empire). Merlin is Thom Merrilin, the Amyrlin Seat, and Moiraine too. Mordred is split among Moridin, Mordeth, Demandred, with Gawyn lurking under the surface. One thing that Gawyn definitely has in common with Gawain is the obsession with revenge; in Gawain's case, it was against Lancelot for killing his brother Gareth, and in Gawyn's case, it's Morgase of course. In both cases, the fixation has a rather empty-headed sort of chivalry at its root.

jason wolfbrother
05-08-2010, 12:51 PM
link sends me to "You are not the champion of the faction you are attempting to modify" :confused::confused::confused:

Kimon
05-08-2010, 03:54 PM
One thing that Gawyn definitely has in common with Gawain is the obsession with revenge; in Gawain's case, it was against Lancelot for killing his brother Gareth, and in Gawyn's case, it's Morgase of course. In both cases, the fixation has a rather empty-headed sort of chivalry at its root.

It seems a bit harsh to claim that Gawain was obsessed with revenge, but even if you view him as such, he has much better reason than does Gawyn. King Lot of Orkney had four sons- Gawain, Agravaine, Gaheris, and Gareth. Lancelot killed all of them, and with the exception of Agravaine, Lancelot is clearly in the wrong in the other cases. He murdered Gareth and Gaheris while they were unarmed. Gawain had good reason to seek his revenge, since he was trying to avenge all three of his brothers. This does not strike me as "empty-headed chivalry".

In comparing Gawyn to Gawain, the comparison is either sort of good or outright poor depending on which sources you use for the comparison. Gawain comes off less honorably in Malory, yet he comes off as a nigh perfect model of nobility in Geoffrey of Monmouth. So the Gawain of Mallory is obviously a better fit with Gawyn in terms of character (since Gawyn is an honorless schmuck- heck the murder of Lamorak almost even parallels his murder of Hammar and Coulin), but in terms of skill, Gawyn is definitely closer to Monmouth's Gawain, since in Malory Gawain is second tier in ability.

Terez
05-08-2010, 10:30 PM
It seems a bit harsh to claim that Gawain was obsessed with revenge
The wording comes from a journal article I found on JSTOR (http://www.jstor.org/stable/3729807?seq=1) (I feel weird linking it rather than giving a proper cite):

One of the most discussed questions in Malory scholarship has been why Gawain turns so completely against Lancelot after the death of Gareth and in so doing sacrifices his former nobility in the pursuit of an apparently obsessive revenge.
So, maybe harsh, but it's not really my words.

but even if you view him as such, he has much better reason than does Gawyn.
Yup, true.

Gawain had good reason to seek his revenge, since he was trying to avenge all three of his brothers. This does not strike me as "empty-headed chivalry".
What makes it empty-headed in Gawain's case is the fact that the revenge wasn't worth the consequences (from what I gather). So, all this tragedy because Gawain had this noble idea that he was obligated to avenge the deaths of his brothers.

Terez
05-08-2010, 10:32 PM
link sends me to "You are not the champion of the faction you are attempting to modify" :confused::confused::confused:
Dunno why it did that - I checked the link - but I'll try again.

Terez
05-09-2010, 01:14 AM
Also, I have been thinking about Min's viewing of Perrin, that he would have to be there for Rand twice, or it would be bad. Very bad. Dumai's Wells was one, and it's an easy enough assumption to make that the second would be the Last Battle, but seeing as how Perrin has Morgase, I am starting to think that Caemlyn will be the second time, and that Perrin is not going to make it in time. Which will, of course, be very bad. But still all good in the end, of course.

Marie Curie 7
05-09-2010, 06:32 PM
Join the faction (http://www.theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=189). I kept the creed pretty simple. I am working on a more finely-tuned version of the theory, working in the Gawain parallels and the pattern of blademaster battles and such, but for now you can read the hastily-thrown-together version of the theory on the home page (http://www.theoryland.com/index.php).

I joined! And I happened across a nice bit of additional foreshadowing in Lord of Chaos. You've probably already considered it, but I didn't see it posted in any of the discussions, and I like it. :)

Anyway, it's from one of Gawyn's dreams that Egwene gets pulled into, so it's not a true dream. But it is cool.

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 14 - Dreams and Nightmares

She blinked, staring in amazement. Around her stretched a forest of great white columns. Most of it seemed fuzzy, indistinct, especially what was far away, but one thing sharp and real was Gawyn, trotting across the white-tiled floor toward her in a plain green coat, anxiety and relief mingled on his face. It was nearly Gawyn's face, anyway. Gawyn might not be as gorgeous as his half-brother Galad, but he was still a handsome man, yet this face seemed... ordinary. She tried to move and could not, not to any extent. Her back was to one of the columns, and chains held her wrists above her head.

This must be Gawyn's dream. Out of all of those countless points of light, she had stopped near his. And somehow been drawn in. How was a question for later. Now she wanted to know why he would dream of holding her captive. Firmly she fixed the truth in her mind. This was a dream, someone else's dream. She was herself, not whatever it was he wanted her to be. She did not accept the reality of anything here. Nothing here touched the true her. Those truths repeated like a chant in her head. It made thinking of anything else difficult, but so long as she held them hard she could risk staying. At least, long enough to find out what peculiar oddities the man had rolling around in his head. Holding her captive!

Abruptly a huge gout of flame bloomed on the floor tiles, and acrid yellow smoke billowed. Rand stepped out of that inferno garbed in gold-embroidered red like a king, facing Gawyn, and the fire and smoke vanished. Only it hardly seemed Rand at all. The real Rand was of a height and size with Gawyn, but this image overtopped Gawyn by a head. The face was just vaguely Rand's, coarser and harder than it should be, the cold face of a murderer. This man wore a sneer. "You will not have her," he snarled.

"You will not keep her," Gawyn replied calmly, and suddenly both men held swords.

Egwene gaped. Not Gawyn holding her prisoner. He dreamed of rescuing her! From Rand! Time to leave this madness. She concentrated on being outside, back in the darkness, looking at this from the outside. Nothing happened.

Swords met with a clash, and the two men danced a deadly dance. Deadly if it had not been a dream, anyway. It was all nonsense. Dreaming a swordfight, of all things. And it was not a nightmare; everything looked normal, if fuzzy, not washed in color. "A man's dreams are a maze even he cannot know," Bair had told her once.

Egwene closed her eyes, focused her entire mind. Outside. She was outside, looking in. No room for anything else in her head. Outside, looking in. Outside, looking in. Outside!

She opened her eyes once more. The fight was reaching its climax. Gawyn's blade drove into Rand's chest, and as Rand sagged, the steel pulled free, swept in a shining arc. Rand's head spun across the floor almost to her feet; it came to rest staring up at her. A scream bubbled in her throat before she could quell it. A dream. Just a dream. But those dead staring eyes seemed very real.

Then Gawyn was in front of her, sword back in its scabbard. Rand's head and body were gone. Gawyn reached for the manacles holding her, and they were gone, too.

"I knew you would come," she breathed, and gave a start. She was herself! She could not give in to this, not for a moment, or she would be well and truly trapped.

It of course doesn't include the bit about Rand also killing Gawyn in turn, and it's about Egwene rather than Morgase (though I could see Rand's 'fooling' Elayne coming into the real thing, too), but the stabbing Rand in the heart part is there. And the chopping off of the head echoes a bit of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Kimon
05-09-2010, 07:20 PM
It of course doesn't include the bit about Rand also killing Gawyn in turn, and it's about Egwene rather than Morgase (though I could see Rand's 'fooling' Elayne coming into the real thing, too), but the stabbing Rand in the heart part is there. And the chopping off of the head echoes a bit of Sir Gawain and the Green Knight.

Hmm...now I'm trying to invision Rand as a Nym (since that's basically what the Green Knight was, albeit a slightly more human looking one...). Of course The Green Knight also tested Gawain not just with the axe, but also with the gift of his wife. Maybe instead of Morgawse getting it on with her brother (Arthur), we'll instead have Gawyn trying to get it on with his sister.

Yellowbeard
05-10-2010, 11:05 AM
well, gawyn has certainly been built up into being lan-level type bad assed swordsman, ever since he killed the two head warder instructors when siuan was deposed. so he's certainly got the skills to do it, especially w/ rand missing a hand, having vision problems, and having his two unhealable wounds. in fact, it seems it might not be much of a fight at this point between them.

i guess i wonder how gawyn will be able to get to rand, what with all the maidens that guard him, and his entourage of aes sedai and their warders.

the thing is...unless i just missed it, what role does alivia play in this? how will alivia help him die if it's gawyn that kills him in a sword fight? does she open the door and let gawyn in the back way? is she really a darkfriend and would do that?

Terez
05-10-2010, 12:35 PM
If you actually read the theory, you'll see what Alivia has to do with it. :p As for how Gawyn will get to Rand...there are any number of ways that it could happen, I think. I feel no particular need to theorize on exactly how that aspect will go down because it might well be completely unpredictable.

Also, there was the whole thing with Sleete in TGS. Sleete (a blademaster) was known for being the only Warder to ever win against Lan, back when Lan still sparred with people (besides Rand of course), and Sleete couldn't beat Gawyn. The only reason Gawyn doesn't have a heron-mark sword is because he didn't think it proper to rob Hammar's corpse.

Yellowbeard
05-10-2010, 01:49 PM
If you actually read the theory, you'll see what Alivia has to do with it.

i did read it. just wanted to piss you off. ;P

actually, i think alivia's theorized role is kind of lame. she is given mat's medallion, so it can make it's way to gawyn, so he can successfully fight rand. i think she's got something more spectacular in store.

i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion. when the flows eminate in the channeler's body, wouldn't the medallion just cause them to dissipate, the same as when the flows touch mat?

like when rand dies, alivia is a strong enough channeler to help his soul be able to migrate to moridin's body thru the link they have and she'll help him be able to conquor/possess moridin's body. chances are there someone channeling something with luc and isam that combined them. much more dramatic if alivia does something similar to help rand.

i agree it very well might be gawyn that does him in. after all, if rand has a moment where he can't seize the power or his channeling sickness hits, that's all it's gonna take for gawyn. or also, rand knows he didn't kill morgase. and when challenged, perhaps rand won't be able to lift his sword at gawyn because he's elayne's brother. sort of like janduin in the waste. the new post-dragonmount summit rand could very well lose his hardness and mistakenly think gawyn won't strike.

Kimon
05-10-2010, 02:34 PM
i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion. when the flows eminate in the channeler's body, wouldn't the medallion just cause them to dissipate, the same as when the flows touch mat?



Well one of the ter'angreal that Alivia was using in her duel against Cyndane undid the ball of fire that Cyndane threw at her. It's slightly unclear though whether it actually negated the weave, like Mat's medallion, or if it just negated the inversion of the weave so that she could see it, since Flinn still had to heal her of a burn. If it worked like the medallion, then it would suggest that one could channel while wearing the medallion (since Alvia had no problem channeling with her ter'angreal), if it merely negated the inversion, then this is still an open question.

Terez
05-10-2010, 03:13 PM
i also wonder if a channeler could actually channel while wearing the medallion.
Yes, RJ said so.

Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

One Armed Gimp
05-10-2010, 03:31 PM
Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

+1

I'm still hard pressed to buy into Rand's resurrection anyway, as I have said before, but much more likely he gets ripped out imo.

I also think your theory misses some key things we know must happen. We know, even more so given the recent spoilers, that the pattern is unraveling. This needs to be addressed and I do not think it can be following your theory. Add to that Avi needing to get knocked up, Elyane, most likely, needing to pop out some kids, though the placement of that event can easily be one of the last things done and does not actually require Rand, Matt and Fortuona need to reunite. Lan needs to build an army and get ready for a fight. I just feel that things would be too rushed following his "resurrection". All that needs to be done in two books with time for pointless and unecessary fight, it takes time away from other plot lines we know need to be, or should be, addressed.

And honestly, why would the Seachan attack? They have nothing to gain from that and every move they have made thus far has been very well planned out and calculated and they seem to always have a purpose.

Ieyasu
05-10-2010, 03:32 PM
Yes, RJ said so.

Also, the body-swap theory is the Lamest Theory Ever.

I agree the body swap theory is one of the 'Lamest Theory Ever'... but the Super Dragon Soul Ripped out of TAR Theory is equally, if not more, Lame... and this one about a muggle swordsman who is really a minor character offing Rand... pretty close third...

Good work on research, it is well thought out and I can see your interpretation in the quotes you have provided, but I think this theory is way off... at least as far as Rand's death at the hands of Gawyn anyway, though I definitely agree that the capital of Andor will have a rather significant battle take place there.. but that's about as far as my agreement goes.

Yellowbeard
05-10-2010, 03:56 PM
i just think that "to live you must die" meaning that he dies and gets to live again in a future turning is a bit anti-climatic at this point.

by the way...rand can't die in caemlyn or at a battle in caemlyn. the prophecies are clear:

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul.

he'll die there. the visions of him smashing the remaining seals and descending into the pit of doom. i think there's even a vision mentioned of his blood on the black rock of shayol ghul.

maybe he'll fake his death at caemlyn. perhaps at the black tower. and the vision of logain stepping over his fake, disintegrating body is actually foreshadowing of logain taking rand's place in death at caemlyn.

Terez
05-10-2010, 04:03 PM
The blood on the rocks prophecies don't say anything about him dying. It doesn't even have to be his blood...could be Luc. ;)

OAG...most of your points are dumb. I will address them later though. For now I'm off to fail my history final.

Yellowbeard
05-10-2010, 04:23 PM
twice dawns the day when his blood is spilled.

his blood on the rocks of SG. that was all in the same stanza of prophecies.

but his blood has been spilled in non-lethal fashion a lot more than that. therefore, it has to refer to a lethal blood spilling event.

the other references even you found for your theory reference noon being dark. he dies once, on a day that has two dawns, like an eclipse or something.

at shayol ghul.;)

Terez
05-10-2010, 05:20 PM
twice dawns the day when his blood is spilled.

his blood on the rocks of SG. that was all in the same stanza of prophecies.

but his blood has been spilled in non-lethal fashion a lot more than that. therefore, it has to refer to a lethal blood spilling event.

the other references even you found for your theory reference noon being dark. he dies once, on a day that has two dawns, like an eclipse or something.

at shayol ghul.;)
Oh, he's going to die, but it has to be before Shayol Ghul, as per Nicola's Foretelling. The blood on the rocks will therefore be separate.

Terez
05-10-2010, 05:28 PM
I also think your theory misses some key things we know must happen. We know, even more so given the recent spoilers, that the pattern is unraveling.
Don't see what this has to do with anything.

This needs to be addressed and I do not think it can be following your theory.
Why not? Rand dies. In the interim, Mat and Tuon hammer out the details of the Consolidation. Rand is resurrected, seals the prison, no more Pattern unraveling.

Add to that Avi needing to get knocked up
This can happen at any point before Rand dies, or after he is resurrected.

Elyane, most likely, needing to pop out some kids, though the placement of that event can easily be one of the last things done and does not actually require Rand
Not sure why you brought this up.

Matt and Fortuona need to reunite.
This won't happen till after Rand dies.

Lan needs to build an army and get ready for a fight.
This has nothing to do with Rand dying.

I just feel that things would be too rushed following his "resurrection".
Why? Most of the important stuff will happen while he's dead.

All that needs to be done in two books with time for pointless and unecessary fight, it takes time away from other plot lines we know need to be, or should be, addressed.
I don't see how. Also, the fight is necessary, because Rand has to die. It's probably important that someone on the side of the Light kill him, actually...if Moridin or Fain managed it, Rand's soul might be toast.

And honestly, why would the Seachan attack?
Go back and read Tuon's points of view in TGS and you might find out why. It mostly has to do with the fact that Tuon believes that Rand is a dangerous entity that needs to be contained, and also with the fact that she believes (probably rightly) that she has to complete her Consolidation of Randland before the Last Battle can be won. She sees herself as the savior of the world. Therefore, she has to continue to invade Rand's territory, and Andor is the logical place to go. Strongest nation, descendant of Aldeshar, last nation to fall to Hawkwing's Consolidation, center of the land, marath'damane queen, rumored masses of marath'damane in the Palace. Also, she knows Mat is in Caemlyn, or that he was going there, and she wants him back. ;)

One Armed Gimp
05-10-2010, 07:28 PM
My point with those comments was the amount of plot that needs attention. I don't see all that happening and leaving space for a massive battle in Caemlyn and a sword fight. Its just a feeling. I am not trying to debate your research, that would be pointless. Your theory is well laid out, well documented, and you have supported it well. That being said, it can still be wrong.

While Tuon expresses a desire to contain Rand, I don't see why that requires a complete change in strategy. They have just finished off an attack that was at best an even exchange and at the least scared the crap of out some Seachan. A lone woman they could not defeat. Yes it was a raid, but they could not stop Egwene from ripping them apart. Do they think they would fair better in Caemlyn? These are militarily intelligent people. They know that there is random shadowspawn walking around. They know that the AS can travel. They know the Asha'man can travel. Given that they scout the crap out places, they should, or will when they scout, know the BT is near Caemlyn. They know there are Aiel with in distance. They know all those forces will be against them. You are suggesting they will deliberately attack that city, knowing full well that it should attract the attention of Rand and that all those forces will attack them. Really? After they have been out maneuvered by Ituralde and man handled by Egwene? They are smarting than that. Travel a long distance for a raid, sure. Attack some well defended city with stretched out supplies lines through hostile territory with channelers abound? I think not.

nameless
05-10-2010, 09:44 PM
Oh, he's going to die, but it has to be before Shayol Ghul, as per Nicola's Foretelling.

I don't think that means what you think it means. You've got the Aelfinn prophecy that "the two must be as one" to win the Last Battle on one hand and Nicola's "the land divided by the Return" on the other hand, sure, but your interpretation depends on Rand's interpretation being completely invalid. There's a perfectly good possibility that he's right and the solution is a temporary cease-fire that results in "the two" being "as one" through the end of the Last Battle, after which both sides are free to resume hostilities.

Also, Gawyn has shown before that he can put his lust for revenge on hold long enough to fulfill his other duties, like rallying the surviving Younglings out of Dumai's Wells. No way he'd kill Rand while a foreign army threatened Caemlyn.

Terez
05-10-2010, 10:05 PM
I don't think that means what you think it means. You've got the Aelfinn prophecy that "the two must be as one" to win the Last Battle on one hand and Nicola's "the land divided by the Return" on the other hand, sure, but your interpretation depends on Rand's interpretation being completely invalid. There's a perfectly good possibility that he's right and the solution is a temporary cease-fire that results in "the two" being "as one" through the end of the Last Battle, after which both sides are free to resume hostilities.
I don't think so, for a few reasons:

1. I think the land actually has to be united for Rand to win. Otherwise, it's a meaningless requirement. Herid Fel said that 'belief and order give strength'. I think this was a comment on the Aelfinn answer about uniting the land for the Last Battle. The Seanchan have the order, and Rand's death will provide the necessary belief.

2. I think that, if the Last Battle is done, then Rand isn't all that important any more. But the viewing centers on his body, as if it's vitally important that he come back.

3. The future teeters on the edge of a blade. I don't think that anything else besides the Last Battle is all that important. If the prison is sealed, then it's just another battle that doesn't amount to much.

Also, Gawyn has shown before that he can put his lust for revenge on hold long enough to fulfill his other duties, like rallying the surviving Younglings out of Dumai's Wells. No way he'd kill Rand while a foreign army threatened Caemlyn.
Seeing as how we have no idea what the exact details will be, as far as whether or not Gawyn feels like the battle needs his attention (it might be pretty much over by the time they duel), I think it's pretty silly to make that assumption. Also, Gawyn's rage has only gotten worse. Learning that Elayne is pregnant by Rand is probably quite enough to drive him over the edge.

Terez
05-10-2010, 10:09 PM
My point with those comments was the amount of plot that needs attention. I don't see all that happening and leaving space for a massive battle in Caemlyn and a sword fight.
Wat? Sword fights don't take long; every single one we've seen has taken less than a chapter. Battles never take more than a few chapters.

Its just a feeling. I am not trying to debate your research, that would be pointless. Your theory is well laid out, well documented, and you have supported it well. That being said, it can still be wrong.
Duh? That's a pretty meaningless distinction to make at this point.

The rest of your argument is BS too. You're just looking for little things to make it look like the attack doesn't make sense, when everything in TGS is screaming that Tuon is not about to back down.

FelixPax
05-10-2010, 11:19 PM
Why would Gawyn want to kill Rand, after he learns that his mother Morgase lives?

Egwene is going to learn that Morgase lives soon enough. How? Min had a viewing tying Galad to Egwene, for one (tGH, Ch.42). Two, Min had another viewing tying Berelain to Galad (LoC, Ch.50). Third, Rand was told by Tam al'Thor that "Queen" Morgase is alive with Perrin's forces.

Anyone of those individuals could easily tell Gawyn that his mother, Morgase, is alive. Then offer up proof where she is and/or who she is with currently. If not one of the many other individuals, with Perrin's group.

Gawyn once thought Elayne was killed by Rand al'Thor, and yet he did not try to kill Rand at Dumai's Wells when give the option. He promised Egwene, he would not kill Rand over this issue, if she could offer proof. Egwene said, that Elayne was alive. And Gareth Bryne confirmed Egwene's prior words, that she is alive, and added that she is now Queen of Andor.

If Gawyn could hold to his honor and word this long, what should that change that?

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2010, 04:00 AM
Why would Gawyn want to kill Rand, after he learns that his mother Morgase lives?Gawyn would be quite capable of managing to avoid anyone who knows his mother is still alive, until he stands over Rand's corpse, and she asks "Son, why did you do that?"

I don't think that's what is going to happen, but that is because I assume that someone else (Cadsuane, pretending to be just a random dead soldier, for instance) would stop Gawyn from being an actual threat.

How would Gawyn get past Rand's bodyguards?
I do assume that in a ferocious battle against the Seanchan, at least someone would consider the possibility of danger.

One Armed Gimp
05-11-2010, 05:11 AM
The rest of your argument is BS too. You're just looking for little things to make it look like the attack doesn't make sense, when everything in TGS is screaming that Tuon is not about to back down.

And you are looking for things to make it look like the attack makes sense. From a military stand point, it makes no sense. Tuon wants to contain Rand not get her forces destroyed.

Terez
05-11-2010, 08:01 AM
How would Gawyn get past Rand's bodyguards?
I do assume that in a ferocious battle against the Seanchan, at least someone would consider the possibility of danger.
This could happen any number of ways, as I already said, but I have a feeling that it will end up being a proper duel, to complete the pattern of blademaster battles (RJ's loose parallel to the Knights of the Round Table).

In case you're not aware of that pattern, here it is:

First onscreen blademaster vs blademaster battle (not counting sparring with Lan): Rand vs. Turak. This is immediately followed by Arthur vs Mordeth in the sky, and the double-wounding scenario (Camlann parallel). Of course, it was Arthur vs. Arthur on the ground, with Hawkwing leading the Heroes against the Seanchan (hence the close Camlann parallel in the sky - foreshadowing of things to come).

The second blademaster vs blademaster battle (which was only a fragment) was Rand vs Be'lal in the Stone. This was immediately followed by another Rand-Mordred encounter, with Ishamael again.

The third blademaster vs blademaster battle (not counting Gawyn's offscreen fight against Hammar) was Rand vs Toram Riatin at the Cairhienin rebel camp, which was immediately followed by Rand getting his second never-healing wound from Mordred (this time Mordeth).

The fourth blademaster vs blademaster battle was Lan vs Toram Riatin (mostly offscreen) in Far Madding, which was accompanied by Rand's next conflict with Mordred (Fain).

The fifth and final onscreen blademaster vs blademaster battle was Galad vs Valda, to avenge Morgase. This was the only oddball that was not accompanied by a Rand-Mordred encounter, and it's the only onscreen one that doesn't involve Rand being at least nearby.

The ultimate blademaster vs blademaster battle will be Gawyn avenging Morgase (like Galad), and also Rand vs Mordred. This will be the one that finally kills him (the real Camlann), though of course his wounds from Moridin and Mordeth will contribute (Rand will finally die of his old, unhealed wounds, like Gawain did). And it will also probably precede his final encounters with both Moridin and Mordeth, after he is resurrected.

Interestingly...Sammael was also a blademaster. Immediately following Rand vs Toram and the second wound, Rand faces Sammael at Shadar Logoth, but they don't duel with swords of course. Rand meets Moridin there, and oddly, they don't fight.

And you are looking for things to make it look like the attack makes sense. From a military stand point, it makes no sense. Tuon wants to contain Rand not get her forces destroyed.
I have tons of evidence that you are blindly ignoring to argue pointlessly against. Tuon wants to conquer Randland.

Thank you OAG for taking time to discuss my theory.

Yellowbeard
05-11-2010, 09:05 AM
Oh, he's going to die, but it has to be before Shayol Ghul, as per Nicola's Foretelling. The blood on the rocks will therefore be separate.

Nicola's Foretelling:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

There's nothing in there that implies timing as to anything. It doesn't say "he who is dead yet is resurrected". It doesn't say "he who WAS dead...", either.

There's no reason to think he won't/can't die at SG, and end up on a boat with his harem afterwards.

**can't help, must crack bad joke here** - maybe rand will be a zombie...dead but lives? BRAAIIINNNNSSSSS!!!

One Armed Gimp
05-11-2010, 09:13 AM
I have tons of evidence that you are blindly ignoring to argue pointlessly against. Tuon wants to conquer Randland. If you don't know that, then you are an idiot.

You have tons of parallels and possible foreshadows, most, if not all, of which can be interpreted multiple ways.

Of course the Seachan want to conquer Randland. But up until now they have done it slowly and surely, taken their time and done a bang up job of it. You are suggesting that they throw their current tactics out the window.

You're theory also relies on Rand's current mental and emotional state not having been altered overly much. As it stands now, without any further evidence, his awakening to the power of love could easily and powerfully change his demeanor. I could very well see him just being defensive in an attack from Gawyn. Gawyn will accuse him of killing his mother, Rand, and many others will tell him this is not the case. I do not see Rand killing Elayne's brother for any reason. I see any confrontation between the two playing out differently than you do and you have no evidence to prove me wrong. You have only conjecture and circumstantial evidence based on possible interpretations of events, forshadowing and Foretellings. That is, after all, what a theory is.

While your theory is well thought out, well researched, like any theory, its has possible holes. Those holes are big enough for me to disagree with the theory. You could easily just see my point, point out your disagreement and your interpretation and leave it at that instead of telling me I am dumb and an idiot.

ckparrothead
05-11-2010, 09:48 AM
Honestly isn't Lews Therin Telamon "he who is dead yet lives"?

I mean, it's true. He's dead. He lives.

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2010, 09:51 AM
Honestly isn't Lews Therin Telamon "he who is dead yet lives"?

I mean, it's true. He's dead. He lives.It could also be Mat, who has died yet lives. Or Birgitte, though in that case the "he" would be a bit dodgy.

Or Asmodean, who is "he who is dead yet lived and is now dead once more".

Neilbert
05-11-2010, 09:57 AM
I have tons of evidence that you are blindly ignoring to argue pointlessly against. Tuon wants to conquer Randland.

You could stop ignoring the fact that Tuon is dead and does not want anything anymore.

ckparrothead
05-11-2010, 10:05 AM
It could also be Mat, who has died yet lives. Or Birgitte, though in that case the "he" would be a bit dodgy.

Or Asmodean, who is "he who is dead yet lived and is now dead once more".

Meh, I mean that would be kind of lame. Mat died briefly and was brought back to life. But, he's not dead. He's very alive. Saying something like a guy IS dead yet lives, that's present tense. It sort of implies a walking contradiction. Rand/Lews Therin Telamon is already a walking contradiction. I mean, LTT didn't just die, he is currently dead. Yet he lives on inside Rand, or as Rand, whatever you want to say. That's a walking contradiction. Mat's not a walking contradiction he's just a guy that stopped breathing for a few moments.

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2010, 10:07 AM
All right, so they have Slayer on the boat with them. How's that for not being kind of lame?

JSUCamel
05-11-2010, 10:10 AM
Rand/Lews Therin Telamon is already a walking contradiction. I mean, LTT didn't just die, he is currently dead.

Ding ding ding, we have a winner! Bingo!

ckparrothead
05-11-2010, 10:38 AM
All right, so they have Slayer on the boat with them. How's that for not being kind of lame?

Kind of lame for Rand's three wives to all divorce him and leave him for his uncle.

But at least Slayer is a walking contradiction.

Kimon
05-11-2010, 10:47 AM
Kind of lame for Rand's three wives to all divorce him and leave him for his uncle.

But at least Slayer is a walking contradiction.

Well Min and Elayne have both occaisonally demonstrated a liking for older men, and in Min's case, sometimes evil older men...

ckparrothead
05-11-2010, 11:01 AM
Well Min and Elayne have both occaisonally demonstrated a liking for older men, and in Min's case, sometimes evil older men...

I'm drawin a blank.

Kimon
05-11-2010, 11:09 AM
I'm drawin a blank.

Toram Riatin

Terez
05-11-2010, 12:00 PM
You have tons of parallels and possible foreshadows, most, if not all, of which can be interpreted multiple ways.
No, no, no, no no. We are talking about Tuon wanting to conquer Randland. This is a well-established fact. Everyone seemed to think that Rand was going to get his truce in TGS, but I didn't. Part of the reason I didn't was Nicola's Foretelling, which seems to suggest that Rand will be dead before the truce finally happens, and I didn't figure that Rand was going to die in the first of the three books.

Turns out, I was right. Not only did Rand not get his truce, he also managed to push Tuon into declaring herself Empress:

He walked directly to the chair opposite Tuon and sat down, never once questioning that she had set him as her equal. She knew that the others wondered why she still wore the ashes of mourning, why she hadn't proclaimed herself Empress. The mourning period was over, but Tuon had not taken her throne.

It was because of this man. The Empress could not meet anyone, not even the Dragon Reborn, as an equal. The Daughter of the Nine Moons, however ... this one man could be her equal. And so she had hesitated. The Dragon Reborn would not likely respond well to another setting herself above him, no matter if that other had a perfectly legitimate reason for doing so.

As he sat down, a distant flare of lightning arced between two clouds, though Malai—one of the damane who could tell fortunes of the weather—had insisted that no rain was near. Lightning on a day without rain. Tread very lightly, she thought, reading the omen, and be careful what you speak. Not the most illuminating of omens. If she trod any more carefully, she would have to take flight into the air!

...

"You must call off your attacks," he said, nearly a whisper. "You must sign a treaty with me. These are not requests. They are my will."

Tuon found herself longing, suddenly, to obey him. To please him. A treaty. A treaty would be excellent, it would give her a chance to stabilize her hold on the lands here. She could plan how to restore order back in Seanchan. She could recruit and train. So many possibilities opened to her, as if her mind were suddenly determined to see every advantage of the alliance and none of the flaws.

She reached for those flaws, scrambling to see the problems in uniting herself with this man. But they became liquid in her mind and slipped away. She couldn't snatch them up and form objections. The pavilion grew silent, the breeze falling still.

What was happening to her? She felt short of breath, as though a weight constricted her chest. She felt as if she couldn't help but bend before the will of this man!

His expression was grim. Despite the afternoon light, his face was shadowed, far more so than everything else beneath the pavilion. He held her eyes still, and her breaths came quick and short. In the corners of her vision, she thought she saw something around him. A dark haze, a halo of blackness, emanating from him. It warped the air like a great heat. Her throat constricted, and words were forming. Yes. Yes. I will do as you ask. Yes. I must. I must.

"No," she said, the word barely a whisper.

His expression grew darker, and she saw fury in the way he pressed his hand down, fingers trembling with the force. The way he clenched his jaw. The way his eyes opened wider. Such intensity.

"I need—" he began.

"No," she repeated, confidence growing. "You will bow before me, Rand al'Thor. It will not happen the other way around." Such darkness! How could one man contain it? He seemed to throw a shadow the size of a mountain.

She could not ally with this creature. That seething hatred, it terrified her, and terror was an emotion with which she was unfamiliar. This man could not be allowed freedom to do as he wished. He had to be contained.

He watched her for a moment longer. "Very well," he said. His voice was ice.

He spun, stalking away from the pavilion, not looking back. His entourage followed; they all, including the marath'damane with the braid, looked disturbed. As if they themselves weren't certain what—or who—they followed in this man.

Tuon watched him go, panting. She could not let the others see how rattled she was. They couldn't know that, in that last moment, she'd feared him. She watched until his mounted figure had passed beyond the hillsides. And still her hands shook. She did not trust herself to speak.

Nobody spoke in the time it took her to calm herself. Perhaps they were as shaken as she. Perhaps they sensed her worry. Finally, long after al'Thor had gone, Tuon stood. She turned and regarded the collected Blood, generals, soldiers and guards. "I am the Empress," she said in a soft voice.

As one, they fell to their knees, even the High Blood prostrating themselves.

That was the only ceremony needed. Oh, there would be a formal crowning back in Ebou Dar, with processions and parades and audiences. She would accept the personal oaths of allegiance from each member of the Blood, and would have the chance—by tradition—to execute any of them by her own hand, without reason, who she felt had opposed her ascent to the throne.

There would be all of that and more. But her declaration was the true coronation. Spoken by the Daughter of the Nine Moons after the period of mourning.

Festivities began the moment she bade them all rise. There would be a week of jubilation. A necessary distraction. The world needed her. It needed an empress. From this moment on, everything would change.

As the da'covale rose and began to sing the praises of her coronation, Tuon stepped up to General Galgan. "Pass the word to General Yulan," she said softly. "Tell him to prepare his attack against the marath'damane of Tar Valon. We must strike against the Dragon Reborn, and quickly. This man cannot be allowed to gain any more strength than he already has."
Read it. I can't paste the whole book for you, but Tuon has a few points of view in this book, and you really don't seem to have read them all that carefully.

When Tuon became Empress, everything changed.

Now that Tuon has attacked the Tower, gained several damane with small loss...Brandon said they were disappointed that they didn't get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon that was Elayne's badly-unwoven gateway. If they actually investigate this, it might well lead them to Andor, particularly since they've now got Elaida to question. Add all that to the fact that Caemlyn is probably the strongest hub of Rand's territory at the moment, and Andor is a marath'damane queen, and it's quite clear why Tuon would go for Caemlyn next. She might even go for the Black Tower, since she knows that Rand has most of the Asha'man deployed along her borders. He doesn't yet know that she has Traveling, and Tuon probably knows she can only use that element of surprise once.

That's not counting the fact that she wants Mat back, desperately. She also thought about that several times in TGS, which you apparently need to read again. She knows that Mat was headed for Andor eventually because she knew that's where the rest of his army had been told to go by Talmanes. If you think that she was not filing away every single detail about everything she managed to hear when she was with Mat, then you need to go read KOD again.

And all that is without even considering Arthurian parallel, and everything that points to Rand's death at Gawyn's hands. ;)

One Armed Gimp
05-11-2010, 12:45 PM
I get what you are saying about Tuon and agree with you on what she wants to do in general. But with their recent losses to Rodel, fighting with Egwene, observing of Mat and his forces, and knowledge of the forces around Caemlyn, I do not see an attack there as a smart move and therefore do not think they would do it.

Terez
05-11-2010, 01:37 PM
I get what you are saying about Tuon and agree with you on what she wants to do in general. But with their recent losses to Rodel, fighting with Egwene, observing of Mat and his forces, and knowledge of the forces around Caemlyn, I do not see an attack there as a smart move and therefore do not think they would do it.
You may not think it's a smart move, but Tuon clearly thinks it is the only option she has, and that is what is actually important.

Seriously....read TGS again before you try to argue this point. I don't have time to quote the whole book for you.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
PROLOGUE - What the Storm Means

Ituralde moved his looking glass, studying a group of riders among the Seanchan force. They rode in pairs, one woman of each pair wearing gray, the other red and blue. They were far too distant, even with the glass, for him to make out the embroidered lightning bolts on the dresses of those in red and blue, nor could he see the chains that linked each pair together. Damane and sul'dam.

This army had at least a hundred pairs, probably more. If that weren't enough, he could see one of the flying beasts above, drawing close for its rider to drop a message to the general. With those creatures to carry their scouts, the Seanchan army had an unprecedented edge. Ituralde would have traded ten thousand soldiers for one of those flying beasts. Other commanders might have wanted the damane, with their ability to throw lightnings and cause the earth to heave, but battles—even wars—were won by information as often as they were by weapons.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 6 - When Iron Melts

What would be written of this battle? It would depend on who was writing. They would neglect to include the blood, pounded into the earth to make mud. The bodies, broken, pierced and mangled. The ground torn in swaths by enraged damane. Perhaps they would remember the numbers; those often seemed important to scribes. Half of Ituralde's hundred thousand, dead. On any other battlefield, fifty thousand casualties would have shamed and angered him. But he'd faced down a force three times his size, and one with damane at that.

Turan shook his head in disbelief. "You realize what you have done," he said. There was no threat in his voice. In fact, there was a fair amount of admiration. "High Lady Suroth will never accept this failure. She will have to break you now, if only to save face."

"I know," Ituralde said, standing. "But I can't drive you back by attacking you in your fortresses. I need you to come to me."

"You don't understand the numbers we have . . ." Turan said. "What you destroyed today is but a breeze compared to the storm you've raised. Enough of my people escaped today to tell of your tricks. They will not work again."

He was right. The Seanchan learned quickly. Ituralde had been forced to cut short his raids in Tarabon because of the swift Seanchan reaction.

"You know you can't beat us," Turan said softly. "I see it in your eyes, Great Captain."

Ituralde nodded.

"Why, then?" Turan asked.

"Why does a crow fly?" Ituralde asked.

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 19 - Gambits

"If it pleases the Highest Daughter," General Yulan continued. "Our plan calls for the use twenty squads of the Fist of Heaven—two hundred troops total—and fifty linked sul'dam. We think that, perhaps, a small group of Bloodknives would be appropriate as well."

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 41 - A Fount of Power

Saerin accepted another report, then raised her eyebrows at what it said. Only three novices in Egwene's group of over sixty had died? And only one sister out of some forty she had gathered? Ten Seanchan channelers captured, over thirty raken blown from the air? Light! That made Saerin's own efforts seem downright amateur by comparison. And this was the woman Elaida kept trying to insist was simply a novice?

TITLE - The Gathering Storm
EPILOGUE - Bathed in the Light

Egwene picked up another report, frowning to herself. It was a list of all the women in the White Tower, an extensive list several pages long, broken down by Ajah. Many names had a notation beside them. Black, escaped. Black, captured. Taken by the Seanchan.

That last group was galling. Saerin—acting with foresight—had taken a census following the attack to determine exactly who had been captured.

Nearly forty initiates—over two dozen of them full Aes Sedai—snatched in the night and carried off. It was like a story told to children at bedtime, warning of Fades or Halfmen who stole wicked children.

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Books and Co., Dayton, OH 11 November 2009 - Tim Kington reporting (http://www.dragonmount.com/News/?p=1043)

Q: Do the Seanchan consider the raid on the White Tower a success?
A: Yes, they consider it a success, but they’re disappointed that they didn’t get their hands on the Aes Sedai superweapon.
You say that the power in Caemlyn is a reason for Tuon to avoid Caemlyn. Considering that she attacked the White Tower first, that seems pretty idiotic. She's going to go for the heart of Rand's power next. There's foreshadowing for that all through the series. Again, better things to do than quote all of it for you when you should already know it.

Terez
05-11-2010, 03:02 PM
Nicola's Foretelling:

"The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance out the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

There's nothing in there that implies timing as to anything.
The timing is implicit, and it's backed up by the dream that the Wise Ones had:

TITLE - Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: 19 - Matters of Toh

"They have shared dreams, some of which concern you." She sounded slightly strangled until she paused to clear her throat, then fixed him with a steady, determined gaze. "Melaine and Bair dreamed of you on a boat," she said, the word still awkward after all these months in the wetlands, "with three women whose faces they could not see, and a scale tilting first one way then the other. Melaine and Amys dreamed of a man standing by your side with a dagger to your throat, but you did not see him. Bair and Amys dreamed of you cutting the wetlands in two with a sword." For an instant her eyes darted contemptuously to the scabbarded blade lying atop the Dragon Scepter. Contemptuously, and a bit guiltily. She had given him that, once the property of King Laman, carefully wrapped in a blanket so she could not be said to have actually touched it. "They cannot interpret the dreams, but they thought you should know."
All of this will obviously be happening while Rand is dead.

It doesn't say "he who is dead yet is resurrected". It doesn't say "he who WAS dead...", either.
And your point is? He's not yet resurrected, which is why the scale is tilting, the future teetering. He's dead, but Birgitte says that Heroes are 'not dead as others are dead'. That and the fact that he will be shortly resurrected explains 'dead yet lives'.

There's no reason to think he won't/can't die at SG, and end up on a boat with his harem afterwards.
Except for the Foretelling that indicates he will die before he wins the Last Battle.

One Armed Gimp
05-11-2010, 03:29 PM
I have read TGS a few times myself. No where in there does Tuon say "Let's attack Caemlyn". You may think its the next logical step based on the information available, I don't.

Terez
05-11-2010, 03:33 PM
Of course she doesn't say 'let's attack Caemlyn'. That would spoil the plot. As I have already pointed out, all of your reasons for thinking she won't attack Caemlyn are based on your dim remembrance of what actually happened in the books.

The ignore list....it doth grow...

Crispin's Crispian
05-11-2010, 03:41 PM
The ignore list....it doth grow...Pretty soon you'll have to start ignoring yourself, since no one will be left.


That was a cheap shot.

Ieyasu
05-11-2010, 03:54 PM
Pretty soon you'll have to start ignoring yourself, since no one will be left.

lol, I was thinking her list is getting out of hand too...

I don't understand the point of being a member in a forum community if one is going to ignore more and more of the user base. Publicly keeping track of one's growing ignore list, as if such were a punishment, is rather immature. Easy enough to simply not hit the reply button. :rolleyes:

Terez
05-11-2010, 03:56 PM
It's simply a way of letting someone know that I will no longer be reading anything they have to say.

And since I'm trying to leave the forum, it's probably a helpful tool, to remind me that there's not really any reason to post here, since I hardly ever get a thoughtful response from anyone. Just mindless contrariness.

There are only seven people on the ignore list so far, but I'm sure more will come.

Ieyasu
05-11-2010, 04:21 PM
It's simply a way of letting someone know that I will no longer be reading anything they have to say.

And since I'm trying to leave the forum, it's probably a helpful tool, to remind me that there's not really any reason to post here, since I hardly ever get a thoughtful response from anyone. Just mindless contrariness.

There are only seven people on the ignore list so far, but I'm sure more will come.

Why are you trying to leave the forum?
There is no try, only do.

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 04:26 PM
I have read TGS a few times myself. No where in there does Tuon say "Let's attack Caemlyn". You may think its the next logical step based on the information available, I don't.


I think you have a point. When I get home I'll have to do some digging. The Seanchan are supposed to be masters of war. They knew that surprise would be on their side in Tar Valon. Now, they still have a little bit of surprise because they can travel, but I don't know how much it will help. I wonder how hard it would be to detect multiple entry points and how fast they can respond to them.

If it was me, I would look elsewhere for the time being and leave Caemlyn alone. Elayne also has a massive army camped right there so it'd be silly to attack now. Better to move on other easier targets before trying for Caemlyn.

And since I'm trying to leave the forum, it's probably a helpful tool, to remind me that there's not really any reason to post here, since I hardly ever get a thoughtful response from anyone. Just mindless contrariness.

Pshaw. It's not mindless. I wish I knew more about military theory...

Crispin's Crispian
05-11-2010, 04:52 PM
If it was me, I would look elsewhere for the time being and leave Caemlyn alone. Elayne also has a massive army camped right there so it'd be silly to attack now. Better to move on other easier targets before trying for Caemlyn.

I disagree, for plot reasons if nothing else. There can only be a few major battles left, and we have to assume the Seanchan vs. Rand battle is still to come. In Steven Erikson terms, there is a convergence shaping up at Caemlyn, with the Borderlanders, Black Tower, Mat's Band... None of those groups are hostile to one another, so there has to be a catalyst.

The Seanchan still have to get to Caemlyn, though, with more than a raiding party of raken. So, one way I don't see it happening is if the real Last Battle gets in the way and the Seanchan Return has to be back-burnered. I expect Trolloc armies to be flowing down south anytime, so all available personnel will need to focus on that. But that might not happen till the end of ToM. Plenty of time in the middle for a big battle.

Basel Gill
05-11-2010, 04:58 PM
lol, I was thinking her list is getting out of hand too...

I don't understand the point of being a member in a forum community if one is going to ignore more and more of the user base. Publicly keeping track of one's growing ignore list, as if such were a punishment, is rather immature. Easy enough to simply not hit the reply button. :rolleyes:

That makes entirely too much sense.

One Armed Gimp
05-11-2010, 04:59 PM
I wonder how hard it would be to detect multiple entry points and how fast they can respond to them.

Setting wards like Sammy did in Illian would help. Of course we know this can be gotten around somewhat. See Terez, I read the books and I can remember what I read.

You think if the series ends and Terez is wrong she will take me off the ignore list?

:p

Terez
05-11-2010, 05:13 PM
Elayne also has a massive army camped right there so it'd be silly to attack now.
Elayne has maybe a few hundred thousand. Unless you're talking about the Band. In that case, two things: 1) Tuon wants Mat back, and 2) like Turan and Ituralde and others have said, the Seanchan learn quickly. Some of the Seanchan's best have seen the Band fight.

In either case, the Seanchan have way more than Elayne's army and the Band combined. The biggest thing they'd have to worry about is the Band's firepower (but they have damane to counter that).

Better to move on other easier targets before trying for Caemlyn.
With the Last Battle knocking on the door, better to go for the heart while they still have a chance.

The Seanchan still have to get to Caemlyn, though, with more than a raiding party of raken.
Good thing they just captured Traveling.

I didn't actually put you on ignore, BTW. I did put OAG on it though. He is more of a contrarian by habit than you are. I don't have Ieyasu on ignore, but fortunately I have gotten rather accustomed to ignoring him without the button.

nameless
05-11-2010, 05:15 PM
If they were really pushing the Arthurian parallel, shouldn't it be Lan that kills Gawyn? It's been a while since I read Morte de Arthur but I remember that pair having an epic showdown and the foreshadowing of Gawyn's growing sword skill points more towards a fight with Lan than it does with Rand, particularly since Rand's missing a hand now. If the two did fight it would be over in a heartbeat: either Rand can touch the Power and he immediately disarms and restrains Gawyn or Rand gets channeling sickness and Gawyn takes his head off in the first strike. I just don't see them being evenly matched enough to kill each other.

Terez
05-11-2010, 05:31 PM
If they were really pushing the Arthurian parallel, shouldn't it be Lan that kills Gawyn?
No. RJ twists parallels; he doesn't copy them exactly.

If he were copying it exactly, then Rand would have Elayne burned at the stake for cheating on him with Lan, and Lan would try to prevent it, killing Gawyn's brothers (including Gareth) in the process, and then Gawyn would seek revenge on Lan for the deaths of his brothers, and then Gawyn would get himself killed, finally dying from an old unhealed wound, just before Rand and Gawyn's other brother Mordred battled each other at Caemlyn.

Lan won't be involved in this at all; his fight is up north, though he might get in some Arthurian parallels with Slayer. Since Gawyn and Mordred are one and the same (sort of...there are other Mordred parallels), and Gawyn's lust for revenge is aimed at Rand in WoT (rather than Lancelot), then Rand and Gawyn will kill each other at Caemlyn.

As for Rand's sword skill...it's yet to be tested, so I wouldn't go making any judgments about it. Gawyn might come into the fight over-cocky, especially with the medallion. He knows Rand lost his hand. He has no real reason to believe that Rand ever earned his heron mark blade; Rand told them in Caemlyn that he had not (though Bryne claimed the sword belonged to him). Yes, Gawyn should have learned his lesson with Mat. But emotions can cloud the mind.

Also, in the Camlann duel, Arthur gives a fatal blow to Mordred, and then Mordred comes back with his last bit of strength to give a fatal blow to Arthur. That's pretty much what happened at Falme, so I'm not sure that RJ was planning on doing it again, but it might be something similar.

Crispin's Crispian
05-11-2010, 05:50 PM
If he were copying it exactly, then Rand would have Elayne burned at the stake for cheating on him with Lan, and Lan would try to prevent it, killing Gawyn's brothers (including Gareth) in the process, and then Gawyn would seek revenge on Lan for the deaths of his brothers, and then Gawyn would get himself killed, finally dying from an old unhealed wound, just before Rand and Gawyn's other brother Mordred battled each other at Caemlyn.


You're forgetting about Daved Hanlon. He is/was Captain of the Queen's Bodyguard, which is a little like "Queen's Champion." And he's rumored to be the father of Elayne's kids.

He's imprisoned now, so who knows how that will play out, but it still may. It might be a good reason for Rand to get all despondent again and die in Caemlyn. Then again, you'd think he'd know if Elayne was sleeping around.

Terez
05-11-2010, 05:52 PM
Another point on the Borderlanders...another thing we'll probably see in Towers of Midnight is Rand finally dealing with the Borderlanders. The prophecies do say that he will bind the north to the east, so that has to happen before he dies. That way, the Battle of Caemlyn will probably be going on while the Borderlanders and maybe the Aiel are fighting Shadowspawn.

Terez
05-11-2010, 05:53 PM
You're forgetting about Daved Hanlon.
Nope, I'm not. I just think his story is pretty much over.

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 05:54 PM
I disagree, for plot reasons if nothing else. There can only be a few major battles left, and we have to assume the Seanchan vs. Rand battle is still to come. In Steven Erikson terms, there is a convergence shaping up at Caemlyn, with the Borderlanders, Black Tower, Mat's Band... None of those groups are hostile to one another, so there has to be a catalyst.

The Seanchan still have to get to Caemlyn, though, with more than a raiding party of raken. So, one way I don't see it happening is if the real Last Battle gets in the way and the Seanchan Return has to be back-burnered. I expect Trolloc armies to be flowing down south anytime, so all available personnel will need to focus on that. But that might not happen till the end of ToM. Plenty of time in the middle for a big battle.

I don't know. I have this picture in my head of the trollocs on one side and the seanchan on the other and Rand n Crew in between fighting on both fronts...at least until the Seanchan get themselves in a position to be engaged by the trollocs. Caemlyn is not even central to the land and if the Seanchan want to conquer and they know all the armies are there and the power that those armies have, why not fight in the territory of their choosing? If they can draw them away, beat them up, or even beat them, it makes more sense. The Seanchan are masters of war. They learn and implement what they learn quickly. I can't see a great general being drawn into a fight in a strong location like Caemlyn until they have (or tried to at least) weeded out the lesser problems. Fighting a weakened enemy seems like their style, rather than fighting a fortified position. Right now, Caemlyn is full.

The only problems in the mix are travelling and Mat's guns. Those are serious game changers for both sides.

I guess that's why I didn't write the books.

Crispin's Crispian
05-11-2010, 06:16 PM
I don't know. I have this picture in my head of the trollocs on one side and the seanchan on the other and Rand n Crew in between fighting on both fronts...at least until the Seanchan get themselves in a position to be engaged by the trollocs. Caemlyn is not even central to the land and if the Seanchan want to conquer and they know all the armies are there and the power that those armies have, why not fight in the territory of their choosing? If they can draw them away, beat them up, or even beat them, it makes more sense. The Seanchan are masters of war. They learn and implement what they learn quickly. I can't see a great general being drawn into a fight in a strong location like Caemlyn until they have (or tried to at least) weeded out the lesser problems. Fighting a weakened enemy seems like their style, rather than fighting a fortified position. Right now, Caemlyn is full.

The only problems in the mix are travelling and Mat's guns. Those are serious game changers for both sides.

I guess that's why I didn't write the books.
Your scenario lends itself to an intervention by Mat to Tuon. If Terez is right and Rand dies at Caemlyn, Mat is going to be the logical one to take over the Armies of the Light. As such, he will beseech Tuon to break off the attack and aid the rest in their battle.

But then, that doesn't satisfy Terez's interpretation of the "divided land."

Crispin's Crispian
05-11-2010, 06:20 PM
Nope, I'm not. I just think his story is pretty much over.

Probably. He just fits that "love triangle" parallel so nicely. Or...oddly, depending on your POV.

Terez
05-11-2010, 07:49 PM
Caemlyn is not even central to the land
It's dead in the center. That's why Hawkwing wanted to build his capital in that stedding that is only a few miles from Caemlyn (about 100 or so).

The Seanchan are masters of war. They learn and implement what they learn quickly.
Like Traveling?

I can't see a great general being drawn into a fight in a strong location like Caemlyn until they have (or tried to at least) weeded out the lesser problems.
They don't have time to weed out 'lesser problems'. If Tuon wants to conquer his territory, the best place for her to go is where his strongest armies are, so that she can actually damage him, rather than just picking up whatever scraps he leaves her. Oh, I'm sure they'll go ahead and claim Arad Doman since it's pretty much destroyed anyway. They might even strike into Illian. But everything is pointing toward Caemlyn.

Your scenario lends itself to an intervention by Mat to Tuon. If Terez is right and Rand dies at Caemlyn, Mat is going to be the logical one to take over the Armies of the Light. As such, he will beseech Tuon to break off the attack and aid the rest in their battle.

But then, that doesn't satisfy Terez's interpretation of the "divided land."
Well, it sort of does because Rand will die before Mat gets back from Ghenjei. He might catch the tail end of the battle, but I'm pretty sure that other things will contribute to the battle ending (like Rand dying, which I'm sure will shock the hell out of everyone, not to mention Dragonmount blowing). But I'm pretty sure that the 'truce' will actually amount to Tuon being made Empress of all Randland, and that the price for that concession will be an oath on Tuon's part to free the damane once the Last Battle is done (and possibly the da'covale as well). We've had good foreshadowing of Mat's bargaining skills (not to mention his bargaining ta'verenness), so I expect to see a good hashing between Mat and Tuon.

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 09:34 PM
It's dead in the center. That's why Hawkwing wanted to build his capital in that stedding that is only a few miles from Caemlyn (about 100 or so).


Like Traveling?


They don't have time to weed out 'lesser problems'. If Tuon wants to conquer his territory, the best place for her to go is where his strongest armies are, so that she can actually damage him, rather than just picking up whatever scraps he leaves her. Oh, I'm sure they'll go ahead and claim Arad Doman since it's pretty much destroyed anyway. They might even strike into Illian. But everything is pointing toward Caemlyn.


Well, it sort of does because Rand will die before Mat gets back from Ghenjei. He might catch the tail end of the battle, but I'm pretty sure that other things will contribute to the battle ending (like Rand dying, which I'm sure will shock the hell out of everyone, not to mention Dragonmount blowing). But I'm pretty sure that the 'truce' will actually amount to Tuon being made Empress of all Randland, and that the price for that concession will be an oath on Tuon's part to free the damane once the Last Battle is done (and possibly the da'covale as well). We've had good foreshadowing of Mat's bargaining skills (not to mention his bargaining ta'verenness), so I expect to see a good hashing between Mat and Tuon.

All that's great and all but you are leaving out one important army. They could sway things significantly one way or the other. The BT is right beside Caemlyn. They neutralize the damane, in the eyes of the Seanchan. If the Seanchan know whats there and know the power thats hidden away there, then they are going to be very wary of that place. I think they know whats there and they are afraid to take it head-on...even though we know a lot of them will probably not be willing to fight for Rand, the Seanchan don't know that.

Terez
05-11-2010, 09:49 PM
All that's great and all but you are leaving out one important army. They could sway things significantly one way or the other. The BT is right beside Caemlyn.
I didn't forget about them; in fact I addressed them earlier. Rand has most (more than half, at least) of the Asha'man deployed along the Seanchan borders that are most ripe for expansion because as far as he knows, they haven't got Traveling. It's the perfect time for Tuon to use her surprise chip with the gateways and strike at the core of Rand's power, while he's focused on the edges of hers.

Of course, she could choose to go for the city before the Black Tower, depending on which she thinks is most important. Elaida did say the Black Tower would be rent in blood and fire, but it's not quite clear who will do the rending. The best candidate seems to be Logain, which would seem to preclude Seanchan participation, but doesn't necessarily.

Also, they have recently discovered that forkroot works on men as well as on women, so Tylee might have some ideas about how to crack that nut. ;) That's actually pretty scary now that I think about it...because RJ did mention the water reservoirs underneath Caemlyn (Elayne took Aviendha down to look at them). And of course, random seemingly-unimportant details have a way of becoming important in WoT.

Terez
05-11-2010, 10:08 PM
Probably. He just fits that "love triangle" parallel so nicely. Or...oddly, depending on your POV.
Forgot to do this one earlier. Anyway, Rand might well kill davedhanlondoilanmellarwhatever but it won't be all that important, IMHO.

Also, I am beginning to wonder if Mat will warn Elayne against the possibility of the Seanchan attacking, and offer her the Band to that effect. That would make more sense than her actually leading them at the battle, cause I'm thinking she needs to be out of the country for Rand's duel with Gawyn, and Cairhien seems like a good bet since she needs to claim the Sun Throne (though I'm sure Moiraine would show up in the nick of time to bitch-slap her back to Andor for body-watching duty). That would give Gawyn a chance to fulfill his duty in Andor in some way before the series is done, and it would also give him a chance to find his 'proof' via people like Ellorien, and the others that supported Elayne only at Dyelin's insistence.

I am just wondering if Elayne will have Rand watching things for her when Gawyn shows up, or if she'll have Gawyn watching things for her when Rand shows up. Could go either way, though in the first scenario, Gawyn would have to visit Ellorien et al first for his proof (unless he just decides his oath to Egwene is void because Elayne is in danger, and allowing Rand to live will harm Elayne and Andor).

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2010, 03:44 AM
The Seanchan have Traveling, but that is less use to them in military matters than it might seem.

When Egwene moved her army to Tar Valon, she had groups of AS linking, so that the gateways were big enough for substantial colums to move through.

But when she moved Mat and company to Ebou Dar, the gateway was so small that Mat had to dismount in order to get through.

When Rand was conducting his attack on Illian, his troops were trained to ride through bending low over their horses heads, two at a time.
When Rand went to slap the Seanchan back, he did so with a fairly small number of troops, because otherwise he wouldn't have been able to move them. He had about 100 ordinary soldiers per channeler.
When LTT raided SG, he used that same proportion, probably for the same reason: more troops would take too long to move effectively, and thus have to be left behind as soon as an emergency occurred.

The Seanchan don't have the ability to link. So they would be limited to the same kind of small gateways that Egwene used for the BotW expedition. That in turn would put them at a very severe disadvantage against opponents who can easily use larger numbers.

Now, would they figure this out?
I'm sure it is the kind of detail that Elaida would overlook. So the real question is: is Fortuona a better military commander than Suffa?

nameless
05-12-2010, 05:12 AM
I don't know. I have this picture in my head of the trollocs on one side and the seanchan on the other and Rand n Crew in between fighting on both fronts...at least until the Seanchan get themselves in a position to be engaged by the trollocs.

Rand is guarding the Waygates in territory that he controls, and the Seanchan are not guarding theirs. If there's no unification it won't matter who's closer to the Blight.

One Armed Gimp
05-12-2010, 10:01 AM
The Seanchan have pretty much lost the element of surprise. Not that them suddenly showing up would not be a surprise, but by the time they figure out what they have Egwene should have told her friends whats up. Thats if the story doesn't spread and other figure it out for themselves. People should know by now, that the Seanchan may have Traveling.

As has been pointed out, the Seanchan have run into some tough times militarily recently. They are still wary, prehaps more so now, of the AS. They can not count on continued re-enforcements and supplies from Seanchan given the rebellion going on there. They have yet to flat out attack an enemy strong hold in the open like Terez is suggesting they will do.

Also in the eyes of Tuon, Caemlyn may not be very significant to Rand. I would think they would see Illian and Tear as being more important and Illian is well within striking distance and much less well defended. Besides what better way to strike at Rand than to capture the land where he is King?

Casabamelon
05-12-2010, 10:34 AM
There is no try, only do.

You butcher.

You deserve to be in an ignore list for that.
________
Squirting black (http://www.fucktube.com/categories/998/black/videos/1)

Terez
05-12-2010, 10:46 AM
Gonzo, you left out a couple of important (small, individual) gateway campaigns.

GonzoTheGreat
05-12-2010, 10:49 AM
Oh, gateways are very useful for chasing someone, or things like that. But you're suggesting a rather massive battle, which would require very big army movements, and for that you need linked channelers.

Terez
05-12-2010, 11:25 AM
Oh, gateways are very useful for chasing someone, or things like that. But you're suggesting a rather massive battle, which would require very big army movements, and for that you need linked channelers.
I dunno. Nine thousand Saldaean horse got into Illian very quickly, and they specifically practiced going through small gateways to do it.

Edit: I forgot about the 15,000 Legion of the Dragon infantry. They all got into Illian via one gateway (Rand made it four paces by four). The other Asha'man went with Rand into the city through Rand's gateway. Imagine what the Seanchan could do with, oh, 50 or so gateways that a man (or a damane) could run through. That seems a very conservative estimate to me.

Crispin's Crispian
05-12-2010, 12:18 PM
The Seanchan have pretty much lost the element of surprise. Not that them suddenly showing up would not be a surprise, but by the time they figure out what they have Egwene should have told her friends whats up. Thats if the story doesn't spread and other figure it out for themselves. People should know by now, that the Seanchan may have Traveling.


hahahaha... You mean you expect people to tell important things to other people? This is the Wheel of Time, remember?

One Armed Gimp
05-12-2010, 01:04 PM
hahahaha... You mean you expect people to tell important things to other people? This is the Wheel of Time, remember?

Crazier things have happened. And they do pass info from time to time.

Wantanswers
05-12-2010, 01:39 PM
Bah, what a terrible scenario. As a matter of fact you described the second part of Egwene’s acceptance test. You only forgot the Trollocks and the Myrddraal and I assure you: They will be there.
I don’t like this theory at all. To me it is an example of selective shopping. You read Linda’s essay about Rhand and King Arthur and you got the idea Gawyn will kill Rhand just as Gawainn did Arthur. So you gathered some quotes that seemed to prove your idea and wrote your theory. You even used a quote that is bit obscure and can as well be used to prove the opposite.
"Al'Thor, one day I will see you die."
Seeing someone dying isn’t the same as killing someone. Because I think Rhand will die at Shayol Gull it should imply that Gawyn will accompany Rhand to Shayol Gull. That is only an idea and I don’t feel any need to gather quotes to prove that idea. During about 20 years I have been reading and rereading the WOT-series I had more idea’s; some have proven to be wrong, some were right.
Although there are a lot of parallels between Gawainn and Gawyn , I don’t think RJ did just “copy and paste” the Arthurian Legend. Besides, RJ was playing around with us so often that I wouldn’t be surprised if he did it here too.
Another objection I have to your theory is, that you didn’t analyze Gawyn deeply before you wrote it. The most important thing we know about Gawyn is having a choice. That choice is not to kill or not to kill,
She stands at fork in road. Gawyn, rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses
This dream not only tells Gawyn has to make a choice; it also says he will have to make the choice himself. Even Egwene cannot help him.
Min too had a vision that seem to suggest he has to make a choice:
Gawyn kneeling at Egwene’s feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene’s neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.
If he makes the right choice Egwene will bind him; after making the wrong choice he will kill her. But who can kill his love one. LTT did, but he was mad at that time. A darkfriend also can! (think of Kadere and Isendre, FoH, chapter 29) And that leads us to the choice Gawyn has to make: Light or Dark.
In another he (Gawyn) began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead.
Rhand built a wall around him when he got dark, Gawyn is closing a door.
”You’ve sacrificed?” Egwene interrupted, letting a little anger show. “What about what I sacrificed to rebuild the White Tower? Sacrifices that you undermined by acting against my expressed wishes? Did Siuan not tell you that I had forbidden a rescue?”
“She did,” he said stiffly. “But we were worried about you.”
“Well, that worry was the sacrifice I demanded, Gawyn,” she said, exasperated. “Don’t you see what a distrust you have shown to me? How can I trust you if you will disobey me in order to feel more comfortable.”
Egwene reminded Gawyn that a price has to be paid.

The really choice Gawyn has is to revenge his mother’s death or accept it.
If Gawyn kills the Dragon Reborn, the Champion of the Light, the Dark one will win; he, himself, will sacrifice not only his mother, but also Egwene en Elaine. He will also doom mankind.
But if he decides to accept his mother’s dead to save the world he will be rewarded, because he will learn his mother is still alive.
Let’s hope he will make the right choice.

Crispin's Crispian
05-12-2010, 02:12 PM
Bah, what a terrible scenario. As a matter of fact you described the second part of Egwene’s acceptance test. You only forgot the Trollocks and the Myrddraal and I assure you: They will be there.
I don’t like this theory at all. To me it is an example of selective shopping. You read Linda’s essay about Rhand and King Arthur and you got the idea Gawyn will kill Rhand just as Gawainn did Arthur. So you gathered some quotes that seemed to prove your idea and wrote your theory. You even used a quote that is bit obscure and can as well be used to prove the opposite.
Wow. Did you actually read the theory?

Terez
05-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Wantanswers is a troll. Has been pretty much from day 1, though fortunately s/he doesn't post often.

Wantanswers
05-12-2010, 04:09 PM
Terez
Wantanswers is a troll. Has been pretty much from day 1, though fortunately s/he doesn't post often.
And you choose the wrong nickname. You should call yourself Elayda.You bully everyone who doesn't agree with you. As far as I understood this was a discussion
forum. You don't even know what a discussion is.

@ Crispin's Crispian
Yes, I did. And I read all the posts on this topic too. Anyhow, this is my last post on this forum, because I don't like to be bullied by a child.

Terez
05-12-2010, 04:21 PM
Bye. Also...Mordred killed Arthur, not Gawain. ;)

Yellowbeard
05-12-2010, 04:58 PM
While I can't say I totally believe every aspect of the theory, and I still anticipate Rand dies at SG, and humbly think that Terez reacts a tad strongly to those that don't agree w/ her, I did notice the glaring error of the claim that Gawain killed Arthur....FAIL!!

And I guess I'm not entirely convinced that a massive blood letting will happen at Caemlyn. Sure RJ got the name from Arthurian legend, as he did lots of other stuff in WoT, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is no big battle that happens there, either. Seems that since they all know TG is coming, they should all be smart enough to figure out they need to conserve their forces and waste themselves fighting each other. Otherwise, they won't have the strength to resist the trolloc hordes.

Terez
05-12-2010, 05:13 PM
Terez reacts a tad strongly to those that don't agree w/ her
Not always. Some arguments are just less logical than others. I get particularly frustrated when people's ideas aren't backed up by something resembling evidence or logic, which is often the case. And sometimes, I get the feeling that people want me to be wrong just a little too emphatically. It leads to a lot of pointless debates.

And I guess I'm not entirely convinced that a massive blood letting will happen at Caemlyn. Sure RJ got the name from Arthurian legend, as he did lots of other stuff in WoT, but it wouldn't surprise me if there is no big battle that happens there, either.
I was pretty skeptical of the idea when I first heard of it, for the same reasons. I don't believe there will be a battle at Caemlyn because of Arthurian legend so much as because of things in the books that point to it.

Seems that since they all know TG is coming, they should all be smart enough to figure out they need to conserve their forces and waste themselves fighting each other.
I could sort of see that before TGS, but after TGS, not so much. Tuon threw down the proverbial gauntlet when she declared herself Empress; it will take something very huge to get her to change course now. Since Nicola's Foretelling indicates that Rand will be dead before the two are as one, then I can imagine that his death might have something to do with helping Fortuona (we'll just call her Tuon for short) to see that certain concessions need to be made.

Otherwise, they won't have the strength to resist the trolloc hordes.
I imagine that it will be pretty dirty for a little while, because otherwise it would be boring. But they will pull it together eventually.

nyquil99
05-13-2010, 12:09 AM
When I was re-reading the books I came to the conclusion that there was going to be a big battle at Caemlyn because of a dream that Egwene had about Mat. In the dream she sees Mat bowling on a village green. He knocks over pins again and again, only the pins are men and they are dead. Each pin represents thousands of men and an Illuminator was part of it (from encyclopaedia WOT).

You can take that dream two ways. One way is that the Band is going to be in a battle and we are going to see Aludra's Dragons. I don't think it will be the Last Battle because there is no mention of trollocs in the dream therefore it will be at Caemlyn where the band is currently located. Or this dream is about Randland now having Aludra's Dragons, warfare has changed and this is the cause of thousands upon thousands of deaths (in the future).

If you believe there is going to be a battle then who will they fight? I think the options are the Seanchan, the Borderlanders, the army King Roedran raised, or the Black Tower. To me the Seanchan are the best option.

Tamyrlin
05-13-2010, 01:17 AM
I don't see behavior indicative of a Troll. Let's not pick on new users of our forums.

Wantanswers
05-13-2010, 06:05 AM
I don't see behavior indicative of a Troll. Let's not pick on new users of our forums.

Thank you for defending me, but I see no use of discussing on this forum as long as Elaida..sorry, Terez is dominating it and behaving like a tyrant. She don't ever consider her theories might be wrong, doesn't consider that visions, foretellings et al can be explained in different ways. She thinks she is always right because she wrote the Great Purge. A discussion forum should be a dialogue, not a monologue. Somewhere on this forum Terez said that the Dutchies didn't stay on this forum for a long time. Well, I'm one of them and I understand why.

Anyhow, thank you Tam.

Sei'taer
05-13-2010, 06:48 AM
Thank you for defending me, but I see no use of discussing on this forum as long as Elaida..sorry, Terez is dominating it and behaving like a tyrant. She don't ever consider her theories might be wrong, doesn't consider that visions, foretellings et al can be explained in different ways. She thinks she is always right because she wrote the Great Purge. A discussion forum should be a dialogue, not a monologue. Somewhere on this forum Terez said that the Dutchies didn't stay on this forum for a long time. Well, I'm one of them and I understand why.

Anyhow, thank you Tam.


It's been that way for a long time.

I thought your argument was good and backed up nicely. No reason to go off mad because one person thinks you're a troll. Go to the threads about other things by other people.

Tamyrlin
05-13-2010, 10:09 AM
I understand that you feel "bullied", and in such cases you should report the post or posts to us. The admins of the forums are not omnipotent, but when we are made aware of a problem, we do our best to handle it in a measured way.

Crispin's Crispian
05-13-2010, 10:51 AM
Thank you for defending me, but I see no use of discussing on this forum as long as Elaida..sorry, Terez is dominating it and behaving like a tyrant. She don't ever consider her theories might be wrong, doesn't consider that visions, foretellings et al can be explained in different ways. She thinks she is always right because she wrote the Great Purge. A discussion forum should be a dialogue, not a monologue. Somewhere on this forum Terez said that the Dutchies didn't stay on this forum for a long time. Well, I'm one of them and I understand why.


I don't know if you're a troll, since I have seen very few of your posts. But I was 100% serious when I asked if you had read the theory. You posted quite aggressively about how it was a horrible scenario, then proceeded to argue angrily against something that Terez wasn't even doing (that is, claiming the parallels are going to be exact).

You can't post stuff like that and expect someone to keep quiet.

Terez
05-13-2010, 11:00 AM
You can't post stuff like that and expect someone to keep quiet.
And this (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=84611#post84611) is what I was remembering from before. Same deal, pretty much. Pretty trollish, IMO.

Tamyrlin
05-13-2010, 11:10 AM
And most of this users' posts have not been of the "horrible scenario" type.

JSUCamel
05-13-2010, 11:44 AM
Dismissive and cocky are not exclusive characteristics of Trolls

But when you combine it with insults on a regular basis, it does become characteristic of trolls.

Tamyrlin
05-13-2010, 11:51 AM
when you purposefully post something to be insulting and inflamatory, especially when it is off topic.

Which makes me wonder if I'm the source of the Unseen Eyes in T'A'R...wait, wrong thread.

JSUCamel
05-13-2010, 11:56 AM
when you purposefully post something to be insulting and inflamatory, especially when it is off topic.

Which makes me wonder if I'm the source of the Unseen Eyes in T'A'R...wait, wrong thread.

You and Wantsanswers are discussing the topic, and therefore I don't feel as if this is off-topic at all. You made a statement regarding the definition of a troll and I further clarified the definition. I'm not being inflammatory at all, but rather I'm pointing out that Wantsanswers is not wrong.

I have no problem starting a thread in TAR regarding this topic, if you'd prefer.

Terez
05-13-2010, 11:56 AM
Thanks Tam. Can we get back to Gawainn killing Rhand now?

Tamyrlin
05-13-2010, 12:05 PM
was directly related to the designation of Wantsanswers as a Troll for specific types of comments he made regarding this thread which were dismissive and cocky for which he was called a Troll. As I run the forums, it seems right to deny this accusation on behalf of a newbie, qualifying it with my observations of this specific user's behavior as to why I don't believe they fit such a description.

I wasn't starting a conversation on "what is a Troll".

Crispin's Crispian
05-13-2010, 12:11 PM
was directly related to the designation of Wantsanswers as a Troll for specific types of comments he made regarding this thread which were dismissive and cocky for which he was called a Troll. As I run the forums, it seems right to deny this accusation on behalf of a newbie, qualifying it with my observations of this specific user's behavior as to why I don't believe they fit such a description.

I wasn't starting a conversation on "what is a Troll".

The cool thing about trolls is that you can ignore them. ;)

Marie Curie 7
05-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Bah, what a terrible scenario. As a matter of fact you described the second part of Egwene’s acceptance test. You only forgot the Trollocks and the Myrddraal and I assure you: They will be there.

In Egwene's Accepted test, Rand was pinned under a beam and he begged Egwene to kill him so that he wouldn't be turned to the Shadow. How is that even remotely the same as Gawyn killing Rand out of revenge, other than that it happened in Caemlyn?

I don’t like this theory at all. To me it is an example of selective shopping. You read Linda’s essay about Rhand and King Arthur and you got the idea Gawyn will kill Rhand just as Gawainn did Arthur. So you gathered some quotes that seemed to prove your idea and wrote your theory. You even used a quote that is bit obscure and can as well be used to prove the opposite.

"Al'Thor, one day I will see you die."

First, it doesn't take reading Linda's or Dom's essays to see the connections between Arthurian legend and the Wheel of Time, even if reading about the Battle of Camlann was a source of inspiration. Many connections are there, plain for all to see who know even a bit about King Arthur.

Second, it has already been pointed out that in Arthurian legend, Gawain did not kill Arthur. Mordred did.

Third, there are other quotes besides the one above where Gawyn's thoughts reveal that he still wants to kill Rand, even in TGS. He hasn't gotten over his hatred of Rand. For example:

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 30 - Old Advice

"They are my men," Gawyn said simply. Or, at least, they were. Either way, he had had enough of being pushed around by circumstances and wars. He would give no loyalty to the White Tower, but neither would he offer it to these rebels. Egwene and Elayne held his heart and his honor. And if he couldn't give it to them, he would give it to Andor - and the entire world - by hunting down Rand al'Thor and seeing him dead.

Rand al'Thor. Gawyn didn't believe Bryne's defense of the man. Oh, he believed that Bryne meant what he said - but he was mistaken. It could happen to the best of people, taken in by the charisma of a creature like al'Thor. He had fooled Elayne herself. The only way to help any of them would be to expose this Dragon and dispose of him.

Seeing someone dying isn’t the same as killing someone. Because I think Rhand will die at Shayol Gull it should imply that Gawyn will accompany Rhand to Shayol Gull. That is only an idea and I don’t feel any need to gather quotes to prove that idea. During about 20 years I have been reading and rereading the WOT-series I had more idea’s; some have proven to be wrong, some were right.

Yes, it's true that in general 'seeing' someone die is not the same as killing him. However, Gawyn uses the same terminology in the quote above, and then later in the same quote makes it clear that he wants to dispose of Rand. Even more blatantly, in earlier books Gawyn has more than once thought about killing Rand himself (only to feel at that time bound by his promise to Egwene). For example:

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: Prologue - Lightnings

He was a fool. He should have killed al'Thor; he had to kill him. But he could not. Not because the man was the Dragon Reborn, but because he had promised Egwene not to raise a hand against al'Thor. As a lowly Accepted, she had vanished from Cairhien, leaving Gawyn only a letter that he had read and reread until the paper was ready to tear along the folds, and he would be unsurprised to learn she had gone to aid al'Thor in some way. He could not break his word, least of all to the woman he loved. Never his word to her. Whatever the cost to himself. He hoped she would accept the compromise he had made with his honor; he had raised not a hand to harm, but none to help, either. The Light send she never asked that of him. It was said that love addled men's brains, and he was the proof.

Although there are a lot of parallels between Gawainn and Gawyn , I don’t think RJ did just “copy and paste” the Arthurian Legend. Besides, RJ was playing around with us so often that I wouldn’t be surprised if he did it here too.

Of course RJ didn't 'copy and paste' Arthurian legend; nobody said that he did. We know he usually twisted the legends he included, and he also folded bits of many myths and legends into the story. One of the twists of Arthurian legend in this theory is that Gawyn will kill Rand (Arthur). As already pointed out, in Arthurian legend, Mordred is the one who killed Arthur. But in WoT, there are many Mordred parallels, just as there are many Merlin parallels.

Another objection I have to your theory is, that you didn’t analyze Gawyn deeply before you wrote it. The most important thing we know about Gawyn is having a choice. That choice is not to kill or not to kill,

She stands at fork in road. Gawyn, rides up not seeing her. One road leads to violent death, the other, long life. Down one road they marry, the other, not. Gawyn smiles and chooses

This dream not only tells Gawyn has to make a choice; it also says he will have to make the choice himself. Even Egwene cannot help him.

This dream is discussed in the theory. How does the fact that Gawyn has to make a choice invalidate or in any way discredit the theory? There is nothing that negates Gawyn's ability to make his own choice. What if he makes the 'wrong' choice? He's seemingly done that before; why not in this case?

Min too had a vision that seem to suggest he has to make a choice:

Gawyn kneeling at Egwene’s feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene’s neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.

If he makes the right choice Egwene will bind him; after making the wrong choice he will kill her. But who can kill his love one. LTT did, but he was mad at that time. A darkfriend also can! (think of Kadere and Isendre, FoH, chapter 29) And that leads us to the choice Gawyn has to make: Light or Dark.

So only a Darkfriend or someone who is mad like Lews Therin can kill someone that they love? Do only Darkfriends make wrong choices? Can someone ostensibly on the side of the Light not do something wrong or evil? RJ made it clear that his characters are generally not all good or all evil, and many of them face difficult choices:

RJ's Blog, December 19, 2005 (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=30)

Does that mean fantasy all has to be goody-goody on the side of right and black-as-the-pit on the side of evil. No. In my own work telling right from wrong is often difficult. Sometimes my characters make the wrong choice there. Sometimes they do things are quite horrific. But they try to find the right choice. This is the way I think most people see the world and their behavior in it - trying to do the right thing with the knowledge that sometimes you're going to make the wrong choice, and with "right" defined as more than simply being of benefit to yourself - and they want to read books that reflect this. Right and wrong are not simply different shades of gray. Good and evil are not simply a matter of how you look at them.

Many of the characters in WoT have made wrong choices. For example, Elaida is not a Darkfriend, but she has clearly made choices and decisions that have severely hurt the Light.

In another he (Gawyn) began swinging a door closed on her, and she knew if that narrowing gap of light vanished, she was dead.

Rhand built a wall around him when he got dark, Gawyn is closing a door.

How is this comment about the dream related to anything that you are trying to refute about the theory that Gawyn will kill Rand? It isn't clear from your statement.

”You’ve sacrificed?” Egwene interrupted, letting a little anger show. “What about what I sacrificed to rebuild the White Tower? Sacrifices that you undermined by acting against my expressed wishes? Did Siuan not tell you that I had forbidden a rescue?”
“She did,” he said stiffly. “But we were worried about you.”
“Well, that worry was the sacrifice I demanded, Gawyn,” she said, exasperated. “Don’t you see what a distrust you have shown to me? How can I trust you if you will disobey me in order to feel more comfortable.”

Egwene reminded Gawyn that a price has to be paid.

Egwene was talking about the price that she paid to reunite the White Tower, which included expressly forbidding any of them to rescue her from her captivity in the Tower. And Gawyn (along with Siuan and Gareth Bryne) went against her order. It seems to me that this is potentially setting up two things: (1) Because of Egwene's mistrust of Gawyn, she will have an 'excuse' to send him off to Andor to be with Elayne and take up his duties as First Prince of the Sword. (2) If Gawyn is able to brush off Egwene's orders in one instance, then he is likely to be able to come up with another excuse to break his promise about not killing Rand.

The really choice Gawyn has is to revenge his mother’s death or accept it.
If Gawyn kills the Dragon Reborn, the Champion of the Light, the Dark one will win; he, himself, will sacrifice not only his mother, but also Egwene en Elaine. He will also doom mankind.
But if he decides to accept his mother’s dead to save the world he will be rewarded, because he will learn his mother is still alive.
Let’s hope he will make the right choice.

Here, you've decided that if Gawyn kills Rand, then the Light loses. If you look at the rest of the theory, though, this is exactly the opposite of what is proposed. The point is that Rand will be killed by Gawyn. This will make the forces of Light get all despondent, and will perhaps lead to a truce between Seanchan and Randland so that they can join together to fight the Last Battle. It will also possibly break the link between Rand and Moridin, so maybe Rand can get to Shayol Ghul to do his thing with the Dark One without the Dark One being alerted by Moridin that Rand is coming. And Rand will be able to make it to Shayol Ghul because he doesn't stay dead after Gawyn kills him. Instead, he gets ripped out of Tel'aran'rhiod by Nynaeve in order to fulfill the 'he who is dead yet lives' foretelling.

Wantanswers
05-14-2010, 12:27 PM
I don't know if you're a troll, since I have seen very few of your posts. But I was 100% serious when I asked if you had read the theory. You posted quite aggressively about how it was a horrible scenario, then proceeded to argue angrily against something that Terez wasn't even doing (that is, claiming the parallels are going to be exact).

You can't post stuff like that and expect someone to keep quiet.

I wasn’t talking about Terez theory when I said “terrible scenario”. It was about the future I saw (and still see) if Gawyn killed Rhand. So it wasn’t meant aggressive. As a matter of fact I don’t care if a theory is good or bad. In a discussion the worst theory can develop to a great one. Your question if I had read the theory irritated me for in my eyes you could have easily deduced what I meant. But Terez comment slammed the door. I don’t mind if you call me an idiot if you have arguments for that and of course I want to know those arguments. But giving me a name without any argument feels as an insult.

Gawyn will kill Rhand.
No, he won’t.

I think, Gawyn will kill Rand.
No, I doubt it.

The first two lines sound more aggressive as the second. Still I feel no need to use the second. After all a theory is what the writer thinks.

Sometimes I’m wondering if I am reading different books. A fine example was given by Marie Curie 7. She is worried about the truce between Rhandland and Seanchan. I am not, because there won’t be any:
He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him.
Well, he hasn’t yet met the Nine Moons. He has met Tuon and at that moment she was still the Daughter of the Nine Moons.
So, when he meets Fortuona he will bind her and I have reasons to believe that will happen in the White Tower, not in Caemlin.

Terez
05-14-2010, 01:42 PM
I forgot about a blademaster battle that was onscreen:

Gawyn vs Sleete. Immediately followed by Rand meeting Moridin in the dream. :D

Yellowbeard
05-14-2010, 01:59 PM
question for wantsanswers:

just wondering why you use "rhand" instead "rand" like his name is spelled in the books?

JSUCamel
05-14-2010, 02:04 PM
question for wantsanswers:

just wondering why you use "rhand" instead "rand" like his name is spelled in the books?

IIRC, he's Dutch, so perhaps his translation spells it differently.

Crispin's Crispian
05-14-2010, 02:42 PM
I wasn’t talking about Terez theory when I said “terrible scenario”. It was about the future I saw (and still see) if Gawyn killed Rhand. So it wasn’t meant aggressive.

OK, fair enough.

Your question if I had read the theory irritated me for in my eyes you could have easily deduced what I meant.Well, when you post things like:

Although there are a lot of parallels between Gawainn and Gawyn , I don’t think RJ did just “copy and paste” the Arthurian Legend. Besides, RJ was playing around with us so often that I wouldn’t be surprised if he did it here too.

when clearly Terez has been saying that very thing the entire time. I know, because we were arguing about it. Perhaps I should have asked, "have you been reading this thread?"

The first two lines sound more aggressive as the second. Still I feel no need to use the second. After all a theory is what the writer thinks.
I agree with you here, so I'm not sure you're replying to me. You can be opinionated and direct without being rude, and I never accused you of being rude.

Sarevok
05-14-2010, 03:53 PM
IIRC, he's Dutch, so perhaps his translation spells it differently.

Correct.

And YAY! Another Dutchie! Welkom! :D

Wantanswers
05-14-2010, 03:54 PM
IIRC, he's Dutch, so perhaps his translation spells it differently.

You are right. When I learned the original names, I wasn't very pleased with the translation of the names. And there are more things in the Dutch translation I don't like. 13 books to replace:(

FelixPax
05-14-2010, 05:32 PM
You're forgetting about Daved Hanlon

Nope, I'm not. I just think his story is pretty much over.

I think Crispin's Crispian is making a valid point, about the near future role of Daved Hanlon, which Terez's hypothesis basically omits altogether.


Hanlon has knowledge that Moridin is calling the shots in Caemlyn for the Shadow and that Moghedien is below him in power now. Mili Skane/Lady Shiaine Avarhin has this same knowledge too. Both are prisoners of Elayne's now in Caemlyn.

Falion Bhoda role with Hanlon is also up in the air, and she knows that Moridin is in control of Caemlyn ultimately too.

There is the role of Jaq Lounalt, in putting to the question, and likely torturing: Daved Hanlon, Mili Skane and the other captured Black Ajah sisters.

Terez's grand theory is ignorant of the story arcs involving Jaq Lounalt's, Daved Hanlon's, Falion Bhoda's, Mili Skane, Jaq Lounalt, Sylvase Caeren, Lord Jarid & his missing army. It also omits that both Noal Charin and Mat Cauthon each know who Mili Skane is. Additionally, this theory avoids mentioning unmet foretellings involving Elayne in particular:

Min's viewing of Elayne: "above Elayne's, a red-hot iron and an axe." It means trouble but it seems distant, somewhere in the future. (The Great Hunt, Chapter 43)


This hypothesis also seems to have forgotten that Elayne does not really even need Mat's Medallion at all. Why? Because she has Aviendha's deer skin blunt knife (KoD, Chapter 'A Different Skill') in her possession now.:

"This," Aviendha said, holding up the dagger. "I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eye-less or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter."

Meaning Mat will not give his Medallion to Elayne, and nor will Alivia ever get her hands on it. That's one set of assumptions, where this hypothesis errors.

It is a total flight of imagination on Terez's part to think and believe that Alivia will some how gain Mat's Medallion.:

Either way, Alivia will end up with Mat's medallion (which will allow her to do something brave like stand on the city walls and attack without fear of being hit by the Power), and she will die in a blaze of glory, taking out mass numbers of those who made her a slave for over four hundred years. Maybe it will be an arrow that kills her, or maybe an indirect effect of the Power (like how Mat was killed by Rahvin's lightning while wearing it, in Caemlyn incidentally).

And then, Gawyn will take the medallion off of her dead body.


Robert Jordan spent a lot of time and effort setting up these complex scenes with all the characters I have mentioned above. Terez's grand hypothesis makes one set of statements, claims yet ignores and downplays completely other story arcs ready to occur in Caemlyn now.

Even if Terez if right and somehow Gawyn gains Mat's Medallion. There is the little problem that Gawyn could just be Balefire'd like Semirhage was, if Gawyn attacks Rand. Mat's Medallion wouldn't stop that. Beside Rand literally saw Mat die to lightning in Caemlyn while he was wearing that same Medallion once before (tFoH book). Lightning killed Mat, and Rand knows for a fact that Lightning could kill anyone wearing that very same Medallion, too.


Rand's a "Demi-God", according to Brandon Sanderson and Gawyn quite simply is not in the same league, "Demi-God" league. :p

Gawyn is not going to kill, nor be able to kill Rand. Terez's hypothesis "Gawyn Will Kill Rand" is incorrect.


Gawyn needs to lead the armies of Caemlyn, as both Elayne and Birgitte desire him. Gawyn is not going to be out of the information loop, that much longer regarding is mother Morgase's situation. Galad is tied to Egwene, according to Min's viewing, and Galad is going to come to see Egwene soon enough. Egwene and Galad will pound into Gawyn's thick head that Morgase lives.

Terez
05-14-2010, 05:45 PM
Want to put money on it, Felix? ;)

FelixPax
05-14-2010, 06:57 PM
Want to put money on it, Felix? ;)

Alivia is not going to gain Mat's Medallion, nor is Gawyn. Your hypothesis of "Gawyn killing Rand" is a flight of imagination. ;) :D

Selective quotations, to only support your own case while omitting others, which do not support your hypothesis at all.


It not as if your hypothesis has successfully answered every open question by Crispin's Crispian,Wantanswers, One Armed Gimp among others. I just see you ignoring their questions, if not belittling them personally at times. It's almost as if, your running a political smear campaign of negative ads, not an intellectual movement. Let alone a "discussion". It's your way or the highway, its seems to typically be....

Valan Luca is far more likely to be the 3rd Man going to the Tower of Gheneji, than is the chance that Mat's Medallion will end up in the hands of Gawyn.

Rand is a Demi-God, Gawyn is not.

Wantanswers
05-14-2010, 07:00 PM
You started with the presupposition that Gawyn will kill Rand and you used a quote to prove you were right. My presupposition is that Gawyn will not and I’ll use the same quote
Originally Posted by RJ/BS
TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 30 - Old Advice

"They are my men," Gawyn said simply. Or, at least, they were. Either way, he had had enough of being pushed around by circumstances and wars. He would give no loyalty to the White Tower, but neither would he offer it to these rebels. Egwene and Elayne held his heart and his honor. And if he couldn't give it to them, he would give it to Andor - and the entire world - by hunting down Rand al'Thor and seeing him dead.

Rand al'Thor. Gawyn didn't believe Bryne's defense of the man. Oh, he believed that Bryne meant what he said - but he was mistaken. It could happen to the best of people, taken in by the charisma of a creature like al'Thor. He had fooled Elayne herself. The only way to help any of them would be to expose this Dragon and dispose of him.
The first bold part shows Gawyn’s love to Egwene, Elaine, Andor and the entire world, the second his hatred to Rand al’Thor. Love represents the Light side of men; hate the Dark side. So he has to choose between love and hate. If he chooses to kill Rand he denies his love and if he denies his love there is no place for love anymore. Just like Rand, Gawyn has to remember love.
And just as Rand came close to destroying the world, Gawyn will come close to killing Rand. He might even defeat him in a duel, but he will not kill him.
That duel is perhaps just fantasy, perhaps wishful thinking, but it seems to fit. Min had a vision about Gawyn with a heron blade. And Rand still has Laman’s Sword, which he cannot use anymore. I cannot think of a better destination for that sword. The First Prince of the Sword, brother of the Queen of Andor and Cairhien and brother of Aviendha’s first-sister.

Originally Posted by RJ
RJ's Blog, December 19, 2005

Does that mean fantasy all has to be goody-goody on the side of right and black-as-the-pit on the side of evil. No. In my own work telling right from wrong is often difficult. Sometimes my characters make the wrong choice there. Sometimes they do things are quite horrific. But they try to find the right choice. This is the way I think most people see the world and their behavior in it - trying to do the right thing with the knowledge that sometimes you're going to make the wrong choice, and with "right" defined as more than simply being of benefit to yourself - and they want to read books that reflect this. Right and wrong are not simply different shades of gray. Good and evil are not simply a matter of how you look at them.

Many of the characters in WoT have made wrong choices. For example, Elaida is not a Darkfriend, but she has clearly made choices and decisions that have severely hurt the Light.
Right. And Verin proved it in the opposite way.
Even the Dark One has a good side.

Sei'taer
05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
And Rand still has Laman’s Sword, which he cannot use anymore. I cannot think of a better destination for that sword. The First Prince of the Sword, brother of the Queen of Andor and Cairhien and brother of Aviendha’s first-sister.



OOOooooOOOooooOOOO I like it!

Terez
05-14-2010, 10:35 PM
It could be that Perrin will end up saving the day and everything will be alright. But I don't think anything short of Morgase alive again will stop Gawyn from killing Rand, and at this point, even that might not do it, if Gawyn takes it in his head to think that Elayne is in danger from Rand.

But I don't think so. Very, very rarely does Min have viewings that go two ways, and it's only happened recently, with both Gawyn and Perrin. We know that Perrin's second time he has to be there for Rand is coming up, because Perrin is feeling that pull again (like he felt it before Dumai's Wells). Perhaps they'll make it in time.

I have a tendency to think that they won't, and that it will be 'very bad' like Min said, mostly because of Egwene's 'as darkness fits the sun' quote. It's not a prophecy, but it makes damn good foreshadowing. And of course there are plenty of other bits of evidence to go along with it, but that one is pretty central.

Also, we know that Rand has to die, and there is an implication that he will have to die in order to sever the link with Moridin, because their souls are merging (which is probably unbelievably bad). I imagine that there are any number of ways that Rand could die, but that there might be certain deaths that could hand his soul to the Shadow, or could twist his soul like Sammael's was. That would be a good reason for the Pattern to require someone on the side of the Light to kill Rand, and (by all appearances) prematurely.

Wantanswers
05-15-2010, 02:35 AM
Very, very rarely does Min have viewings that go two ways, and it's only happened recently, with both Gawyn and Perrin. We know that Perrin's second time he has to be there for Rand is coming up, because Perrin is feeling that pull again (like he felt it before Dumai's Wells). Perhaps they'll make it in time.

You are comparing apples and pears. Min twice had a vision with an if in it. One about Gawyn; the other about Siuan. The vision about Perrin is with an and. One time and another. You should read that vision in his context and you will see that in the second time AS are involved as well. It might the 13 Aes Sedai, accompanying the Borderlanders.

Jokeslayer
05-15-2010, 09:27 AM
This hypothesis also seems to have forgotten that Elayne does not really even need Mat's Medallion at all. Why? Because she has Aviendha's deer skin blunt knife (KoD, Chapter 'A Different Skill') in her possession now.:


Quote: "This," Aviendha said, holding up the dagger. "I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eye-less or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter."

Meaning Mat will not give his Medallion to Elayne, and nor will Alivia ever get her hands on it. That's one set of assumptions, where this hypothesis errors.



I don't really see how these things follow each other. Care to elaborate?

Marie Curie 7
05-15-2010, 05:45 PM
Sometimes I’m wondering if I am reading different books. A fine example was given by Marie Curie 7. She is worried about the truce between Rhandland and Seanchan. I am not, because there won’t be any:

He will bind the Nine Moons to serve him.

Well, he hasn’t yet met the Nine Moons. He has met Tuon and at that moment she was still the Daughter of the Nine Moons.

On the other hand, the Essanik Cycle states that the Dragon Reborn will bow before the Crystal Throne. So there appears to be a conflict between the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle. Is that because the Essanik Cycle has been corrupted? Maybe, maybe not. Brandon has implied that both sets of prophecy have potentially been tampered with:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Sam Weller's Bookstore, Salt Lake City 2 November 2009 - Matt Hatch reporting

Question: We know that the Karaethon Cycle and the Essanik Cycle are different. Is that because there were different contributors to each, or some other reason (like tampering by Ishamael)? Which is more correct?

Answer: The Essanik cycle had only in Seanchan and there were different contributors. Which is more correct? I'm not going to say which is more correct. There has been tampering...

Question: In both?

Answer: People are not perfect, alright? Let's just say that and there are lots of forces at work. The Essanik cycle, they have tried to preserve it as perfectly as they can. If the Outriggers ever get written there will be more information about what the Essanik cycle is. It is had only in Seanchan. It was given by damane in Seanchan, so nobody knows about it on the main continent.

So which prophecy is correct in this case, the Karaethon or the Essanik Cycle? Can you provide any evidence that you know for sure which is correct?

In addition, there is the Aelfinn answer to Rand's question about how to win the Last Battle:

The north and the east must be as one. The west and the south must be as one. The two must be as one. If you would live, you must die.

Notice that this answer does not state that 'the one must be subject to the other'. Instead it says 'the two must be as one'. That sounds much more like a truce or some sort of agreement will be reached between the Seanchan and Randlanders rather than one being subject to the other.

So, when he meets Fortuona he will bind her and I have reasons to believe that will happen in the White Tower, not in Caemlin.

You've stated a number of your 'beliefs' about what you think will happen in the series, but I have seen little evidence presented from you in support of those beliefs.

You started with the presupposition that Gawyn will kill Rand and you used a quote to prove you were right. My presupposition is that Gawyn will not and I’ll use the same quote

TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 30 - Old Advice

"They are my men," Gawyn said simply. Or, at least, they were. Either way, he had had enough of being pushed around by circumstances and wars. He would give no loyalty to the White Tower, but neither would he offer it to these rebels. Egwene and Elayne held his heart and his honor. And if he couldn't give it to them, he would give it to Andor - and the entire world - by hunting down Rand al'Thor and seeing him dead.

Rand al'Thor. Gawyn didn't believe Bryne's defense of the man. Oh, he believed that Bryne meant what he said - but he was mistaken. It could happen to the best of people, taken in by the charisma of a creature like al'Thor. He had fooled Elayne herself. The only way to help any of them would be to expose this Dragon and dispose of him.

Actually, if you look back at my post more carefully, you will see that I used the quote for a different reason than you have suggested here. You previously said that the theory that Gawyn will kill Rand was based on use of selective quotes, including an 'obscure' one that said Gawyn will 'see' Rand dead:

So you gathered some quotes that seemed to prove your idea and wrote your theory. You even used a quote that is bit obscure and can as well be used to prove the opposite.

You then attacked that quote by stating that 'seeing' someone dead was not the same as killing someone. The quotes that I posted illustrated the point that Gawyn has thought many times about killing Rand himself and that his hatred of Rand persists.

The first bold part shows Gawyn’s love to Egwene, Elaine, Andor and the entire world, the second his hatred to Rand al’Thor. Love represents the Light side of men; hate the Dark side. So he has to choose between love and hate. If he chooses to kill Rand he denies his love and if he denies his love there is no place for love anymore. Just like Rand, Gawyn has to remember love.

Your scenario is that Gawyn loves Egwene and Elayne and Andor and the world, so therefore he will not succumb to his hatred of Rand and kill him; Gawyn's love will win out over his desire for revenge. However, Gawyn is obviously still conflicted about many of the choices he has made, and his hatred of Rand has not dissipated. Just because Rand won the struggle with his 'dark side', or so it appears, does not mean that Gawyn will, also.

And just as Rand came close to destroying the world, Gawyn will come close to killing Rand. He might even defeat him in a duel, but he will not kill him.

While the 'Gawyn will kill Rand' scenario is just a theory, and therefore may not be correct, it is a well-constructed theory supported by a substantial amount of evidence from the books. None of your comments about the theory or your stated beliefs about what will happen have been supported by anything approaching that.

That duel is perhaps just fantasy, perhaps wishful thinking, but it seems to fit. Min had a vision about Gawyn with a heron blade. And Rand still has Laman’s Sword, which he cannot use anymore. I cannot think of a better destination for that sword. The First Prince of the Sword, brother of the Queen of Andor and Cairhien and brother of Aviendha’s first-sister.

You didn't provide complete information about Min's viewing. In the viewing, she didn't know whether the sword was Gawyn's or whether it was threatening him:

TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

He scowled, and for an instant his face was that bloody mask again. More: a sword floated above his head, and a banner waved behind it. The long-hilted sword, like those most Warders used, had a heron engraved on its slightly curved blade, symbol of a blademaster, and Min could not say whether it belonged to Gawyn or threatened him. The banner bore Gawyn's sigil of the charging White Boar, but on a field of green rather than the red of Andor. Both sword and banner faded with the blood.

The viewing of the sword occurred at the same time that Min saw the banner of the Younglings and also Gawyn's bloody face. The Younglings were formed as a result of Gawyn's choice of supporting Elaida during the Tower coup. During the fighting, he defeated blademaster Hammar and Coulin. As a result, the most likely scenario is that the sword in Min's viewing was the sword of Hammar threatening Gawyn, and perhaps the viewing is also symbolic of Gawyn becoming a blademaster as a result of that fight.

Many of the characters in WoT have made wrong choices. For example, Elaida is not a Darkfriend, but she has clearly made choices and decisions that have severely hurt the Light.

Right. And Verin proved it in the opposite way.

And your point is? My point was that even if you consider Gawyn to be a good guy and on the side of the Light, he has already made choices that have been 'wrong', and he still has choices to make that also could go in the wrong direction.

Even the Dark One has a good side.

He does? You will have to provide some evidence of that. You seem to be trying to ascribe human characteristics to the Dark One, when it is not possible to do so:

TOR Questions of the Week, December 2003 to April 2004

Week 15 Question: What does the Dark One view as the worst punishment he can inflict on his minions: Killing them as painfully as possible? Balefire? Mindtrap? Being continually resurrected to suffer at his hand for eternity? Something we haven't seen yet?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Dark One doesn't care about his minions sufficiently to invest much time in their punishment except as it serves to correct their behavior or as object lesson to others, nor is there much in the way of gradation. Simple failure and outright betrayal might be punished equally, or one might result in death and the other in becoming an object lesson or in something else. (The mindtrap, by the way, could be called an object lesson only to the one so trapped; remember, none of the Forsaken know who is mindtrapped except Moridin and those who are trapped.) The decision, death or object lesson or something else, normally would be simply a matter of whether or not he believed there was any point to an object lesson and/or whether or not he felt there was really any further use in the individual. Or, for that matter, made for reasons unknowable to a human mind. Remember, the Dark One is NOT human and thinking of him in human terms just doesn't work.

Terez
05-15-2010, 06:36 PM
I like the idea of Gawyn ending up with Laman's sword, and it's actually something I had considered previously (I didn't bring it up because I don't have any real ideas on how he might get it, short of surviving a duel with Rand...but Rand is carrying Justice now, not Laman's sword).

Anyway, the symbology of Gawyn killing Rand with that sword is particularly nice. He is the son of Laman's nephew, and Rand is the son of the clan chief that started the Aiel War. Taringail was married to both Tigraine and Morgase; Tigraine was married to both Taringail and Janduin. It's a villain's sword, so a good fit for Gawyn.

Wantanswers
05-16-2010, 02:12 PM
@ Marie Curie 7
As you know English isn’t my native language, it will take me a lot time to answer your post. Happily I have a lot of it, because I’m retired. So I will take that time and answer you later. I will make one exception now and that it is my idea about Laman’s sword. I was pleased, you objected to that idea, but your arguments could not change my mind. I’ll come back on this later.
I should also have been pleased when Terez adopted my idea, considered it, changed it and added it to her theory. I admire Terez’s knowledge of the WoT. Sometimes I think she knows all the books by heart, just as every word RJ and BS said. Well, I haven’t such knowledge. At best I can remember, where I can find a quote. On the other side I get the impression she uses her knowledge selective.
When I was writing I had a thought how angry Aviendha would be if Rand gave his sword to just somebody else, for she gave it him to pay her toh. Well, I found a way that wouldn’t make Aviendha totally mad and I decided to post it and just wait and see. As a matter of fact it was meant as a sort of gag. In my post I already expressed my doubts about that idea. When I posted it I already was aware of another possibility, that seems to be more appropriate, but I didn’t post it, because I preferred a discussion above a poll. I’m really disappointed you didn’t see that. Were you so blinded by Laman’s Sword that you didn’t see the other option.
Originally Posted by RJ
TITLE: Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 1 - Seeds of Shadow

He scowled, and for an instant his face was that bloody mask again. More: a sword floated above his head, and a banner waved behind it. The long-hilted sword, like those most Warders used, had a heron engraved on its slightly curved blade, symbol of a blademaster, and Min could not say whether it belonged to Gawyn or threatened him. The banner bore Gawyn's sigil of the charging White Boar, but on a field of green rather than the red of Andor. Both sword and banner faded with the blood.
As most of the prophecies, visions, foretelling et al, this vision is obscure too. I know a lot of people think it is clear now that this sword belongs to Hammar. I’m not that easy convinced and I made some additional questions:
1. Does the sword belong to Hammar? Yes
2. Does the sword belong to Gawyn?No
3. Can the sword belong to both?Yes
The answer on the first two questions is clear, the third isn’t. But I won’t reject it till it has proven to be wrong.
Originally posted byRJ/BS
TITLE: Gathering Storm
CHAPTER: 1 – An offer and a departure

“I’m saying, Trakand,” the short man continued, “we’ll need to find a blade with some herons on it. No one should have to face you without knowing what they’re getting into!”
“I’m not a blademaster,” Gawyn said quietly, taking the ladle back from crook-noised Sleete and having a drink. It was warm, which felt good. Less of a shock , more natural.
“You killed Hammar, didn’t you?” Marlesh asked.
Gawyn hesitated. The simplicity he’d felt before, while fighting, was already crumbling. “Yes.”
“Well, then you’re a blademaster,” Marlesh said. “Should have taken his sword when he fell.”
“It wasn’t respectful,” Gawyn said. “Besides, I didn’t have time to take prizes.”
Marlesh laughed, as if at a joke, though Gawyn hadn’t intended one. He glanced at Sleete, who was watching him with curious eyes.
I doubt any warder in the White Tower would pick up a Heron Blade which he hasn’t earned, so I assume it still is there. Gawyn is in the WT now and I suppose Sleete will soon be. Gawyn can find the Blade and pick it up; Sleete can find it and hand it over to Gawyn.
To me Hamar’s sword seems more reasonable, more appropriate, as Laman’s is, but if you want to discuss Laman’s sword: have fun.
I know you can easily object to this idea, but all theories are just what we want to believe.

I have one more question, concerned Gawyn.
Could Elaida’s foretelling be true that the Royal Family would be key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle; could it be true that Gawyn's choise is that key.(whatever his choice is) Elaida paid only attention to Morgase and Elaine. Of Gawyn, she only knew he existed. In Elaida’s vision men cannot be important and she notices them only when they bite in her nose.

Kimon
05-16-2010, 02:42 PM
I have one more question, concerned Gawyn.
Could Elaida’s foretelling be true that the Royal Family would be key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle; could it be true that Gawyn's choise is that key.(whatever his choice is) Elaida paid only attention to Morgase and Elaine. Of Gawyn, she only knew he existed. In Elaida’s vision men cannot be important and she notices them only when they bite in her nose.

The exact phrasing of her foretelling may be of import:

The very first thing Elaida had ever Foretold, while still an Accepted - and had known enough even then to keep to herself - was that the Royal line of Andor would be the key to defeating the Dark One in the Last Battle. She had attached herself to Morgase as soon as it was clear Morgase would succeed to the throne, had built her influence year by year.

So should this even apply to House Trakand as Elaida assumes, or should it apply to House Mantear? And, of course, does "Royal line" really signify whatever House currently holds the Lion Throne, or should it refer to all those who have sufficient lines of descent from Ishara to make a claim to the throne? Regardless, I've always assumed that this foretelling rightly referred to Rand, and that Elaida simply misinterpreted it.

Terez
05-16-2010, 05:09 PM
That was one of the first things that I considered when I got the idea for Gawyn, that not only does her royal line Foretelling probably include Gawyn (I think it is necessary for Gawyn to kill Rand so that his soul isn't snatched up by the Shadow), but also, the Foretelling she gave to Rand, that says 'Pain and division come to the whole world, and this man stands at the heart of it.' I think that means physically as well as symbolically.

Terez
05-17-2010, 05:59 AM
Also, I hadn't previously considered that the 'for what is' part of Egwene's Accepted test might be prophetic, but this really is nice placement.

Mat is in Tar Valon. He's just been Healed. He's surrounded by Aes Sedai, and he has holes in his memories.

He meets Lanfear. He sees Siuan again, and she tells him he is linked to the Horn, and that she's decided to let him live rather than letting him die and finding someone more dependable to blow it for her.

Insert Egwene's Accepted test. Rand begs Egwene to kill him, to stab him in the heart (in Caemlyn), because they can turn him to the Shadow.

Then, Mat duels Gawyn and Galad in the practice yard, with Hammar watching over them. He wins his first wager after the Healing, against all odds (against two who would both become blademasters shortly).

Then, he gets his way out of the city: a letter from Siuan, in exchange for him delivering a letter to Morgase, where he meets Rahvin and discovers a plot on Elayne's life. Rahvin gives him a bag of gold for delivering the message. Mat leaves the money with Gill, saying he has a wager with Gaebril, and he goes after Comar, beating the man against weighted dice.

Mat never gets the money back from Gill...but interestingly, Mat is the one to deliver the news that Moiraine foresaw in the Rings of Rhuidean: that Morgase was dead. That led to Rand avenging Morgase. He was the first to do so. Galad was the second. In a masterstroke of irony, Gawyn will be the third. :D

Good stuff, good stuff.

Wantanswers
05-17-2010, 07:13 AM
Moraine didn't learn abou Morgase's dead in the Rhuidan rings. You should reread her letter to Rand.
(FoH, chapter 53)

Terez
05-17-2010, 07:18 AM
I said she foresaw the news about Morgase in the rings. The news happened to be that Morgase was dead. ;)

Tamyrlin
05-17-2010, 09:09 AM
Disagree with Wantanswers, or don't respond to Wantanswers, but the name calling needs to stop.

Terez
05-17-2010, 10:43 AM
As I said in another thread, Tam: I can be nice all day long, without exception. If you're going to give noobs free reigns to be asses, then I reserve the right to respond in kind. I demonstrated to this particular noob that I was willing to play nice, and he crossed the line first. If we're going to play nice, let's all play nice.

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2010, 10:55 AM
This hypothesis also seems to have forgotten that Elayne does not really even need Mat's Medallion at all. Why? Because she has Aviendha's deer skin blunt knife (KoD, Chapter 'A Different Skill') in her possession now.:

"This," Aviendha said, holding up the dagger. "I think that if you have this in your possession, the Shadow cannot see you. Not the Eye-less or the Shadowtwisted, maybe not even Leafblighter."

Meaning Mat will not give his Medallion to Elayne, and nor will Alivia ever get her hands on it. That's one set of assumptions, where this hypothesis errors.

There are two big problems with your logic, Felix.

1. The dagger and the medallion do two completely differeht things. The dagger hides you from the Shadow and the medallion unravels weaves of the One Power.
2. Alivia doesn't need to be hidden from the Shadow in order to fight the Seanchan. The Seanchan aren't Darkfriends or Shadowspawn.

GonzoTheGreat
05-17-2010, 10:58 AM
Another problem: Alivia has a ter'angreal that does the same as Mat's, so she does not need to borrow the one that Mat has. Well, perhaps Nynaeve has it again, at the moment, but if Alivia once again goes to play Rambo, she'll get the necessities for that too.

Terez
05-17-2010, 11:47 AM
Another problem: Alivia has a ter'angreal that does the same as Mat's, so she does not need to borrow the one that Mat has. Well, perhaps Nynaeve has it again, at the moment, but if Alivia once again goes to play Rambo, she'll get the necessities for that too.
It's Cadsuane's, actually. Alivia has been given the weave-breaking ter'angreal, but I don't think it is the same thing. It might be, and Cyndane just figured out the weakness quick enough to do some damage. In any case, it's Cadsuane's ter'angreal, and she took it back after the battle.

Tamyrlin
05-17-2010, 01:19 PM
However, I do expect a higher tolerance from those among the community that have been with us a longer time as it pertains to any perceived or real ass-ery. So, yes, noobs do get a longer leash as it pertains to my tolerance for their attitudes.

And, if you (being any of you) believe that a noob (or anyone else) is being an ass, contact me, since I trust my sensibilities much more than any one elses here. Even you Frenzy (~runs away~). And I'll address it as I see fit.

Terez
05-17-2010, 01:31 PM
I already did that, but you decided that Wantanswers was not a troll (when he obviously is). I don't see any particular reason to extend a longer leash to him.

Keep in mind I have been more welcoming to noobs in general (particularly those that come for the WoT discussion) than almost anyone else over the last few years. I like them all until they pick up on the local vibes and figure out it's the official Theoryland sport to antagonize Terez, or until they just generally get rude for no apparent reason.

Tamyrlin
05-17-2010, 02:18 PM
I already did that, but you decided that Wantanswers was not a troll (when he obviously is). I don't see any particular reason to extend a longer leash to him.I'm not going to run off every noob or close every thread because of perception, but I'm asking other members of this community to stop the kind of name calling that seems to persist in some attempt to run them off every time they appear to agitate or antagonize.

Keep in mind I have been more welcoming to noobs in general (particularly those that come for the WoT discussion) than almost anyone else over the last few years. I like them all until they pick up on the local vibes and figure out it's the official Theoryland sport to antagonize Terez, or until they just generally get rude for no apparent reason. You know how much I appreciate your participation in WoT discussion, but at the same time you are equally unwelcoming when you believe someone is being rude or antagonistic.

I'm asking everyone to take more care in how they approach WoT discussions, and specifically to allow me to address any slights.

Davian93
05-18-2010, 01:12 PM
Interesting thread...more so at other times than when it delved into the definition of trolling.

I dont really think there was any real trolling on the thread.

Sei'taer
05-19-2010, 04:01 PM
Interesting thread...more so at other times than when it delved into the definition of trolling.

I dont really think there was any real trolling on the thread.

Sure, come in here trolling and trying to start a fight and then talk about how there's no trolling.

Rahvin571
05-20-2010, 02:56 AM
Like the theory, but I have a follow up question. We agree that Rand dying in Caemlyn will sever the bond to Moridin, but how will it affect Moridin himself? We saw in tGS that the loss of Rand's hand caused him severe pain, but death is a lot more potent than merely losing a hand. Anyone have any thoughts?

Terez
05-20-2010, 03:05 AM
Like the theory
Yay!

but I have a follow up question. We agree that Rand dying in Caemlyn will sever the bond to Moridin, but how will it affect Moridin himself? We saw in tGS that the loss of Rand's hand caused him severe pain, but death is a lot more potent than merely losing a hand. Anyone have any thoughts?
I figure that Moridin will save himself from dying something like he did at Falme, with the True Power, or the halo of blackness thingy. Rand stabbed him through the heart, and he still lived. Min's viewing indicates that one of them will die, and the other won't.

Casabamelon
05-20-2010, 03:42 PM
Keep in mind I have been more welcoming to noobs in general (particularly those that come for the WoT discussion) than almost anyone else over the last few years. I like them all until they pick up on the local vibes and figure out it's the official Theoryland sport to antagonize Terez, or until they just generally get rude for no apparent reason.

Terez was polite to me. Although, our first contact involved her discussing the use of mirrors in reaching her Masters in Debating, so... not the usual "first contact"... err... so to speak.
________
Vaaapp (http://essentialvaaappvaporizer.com)

Terez
05-20-2010, 05:02 PM
LOL, yeah I actually read that thread again recently for some reason. I forget. It was all about Felix.

Wantanswers
06-27-2010, 06:32 AM
Originally posted byRJ/BS
The plain was oddly silent. The clouds shrouded the entire sky, ominous. And they did not leave.
The last hunt comes. Hopper looked up at the sky. We will run together then. Unless we sleep instead.
“Sleep?’ Perrin said. “what of the Last Hunt?”
It comes. Hopper agreed. If Shadowkiller falls to the storm, all will sleep forever. If he lives, then we will hunt together. You and us.

(TGS, ch.21, page 326. English edition.)

The idea that Gawyn will kill the Dragon terezfies me.

Yours Trolly,

Terez
06-27-2010, 06:57 AM
He didn't fall to the storm - that was evident at the end of TGS (he earned a point on the storm, which represents his state of mind, due to him being one with the land). We know he has to die, and it makes the most sense that he will die when the Shadow's powers are the weakest, and in a situation where the Shadow won't be able to grab his soul. Enter Gawyn, Lightfriend and tool of the Pattern.

Wantanswers
06-27-2010, 02:12 PM
He didn't fall to the storm - that was evident at the end of TGS (he earned a point on the storm, which represents his state of mind, due to him being one with the land). We know he has to die, and it makes the most sense that he will die when the Shadow's powers are the weakest, and in a situation where the Shadow won't be able to grab his soul. Enter Gawyn, Lightfriend and tool of the Pattern.
I agree the Dragon is still one with the land. Perhaps the foodspoiling will stop, perhaps the crops will grow, but still: If the Dragon dies, the land will die.

He didn't fall to the storm
Has the storm already ended? All we know there is a piece of light above Dragonmount as the eye of a hurricane. It's a sign of hope. The Dragon is the opposite of Ishamael: he is the Bringer of Hope.
But the storm hasn't ended:
When the winds of Tarmon Gai’don scour the earth,
he will face the Shadow and bring forth Light again in the world.

I was surprised you took the word "storm" literally.
Maybe it is my fault; I should have quoted some more lines:
Originally posted byRJ/BS
The plain was oddly silent. The clouds shrouded the entire sky, ominous. And they did not leave.
the last hunt comes. Hopper looked up at the sky. We will run together then. Unless we sleep instead.
“Sleep?" Perrin said. “what of the Last Hunt?”
It comes. Hopper agreed. If Shadowkiller falls to the storm, all will sleep forever. If he lives, then we will hunt together. You and us.
Perrin rubbed his chin, trying to sort through the Sending of images, smells, feelings. It made little sense to him.

(TGS, ch.21, page 326. English edition.)
"Storm" is Perrins' interpretation of Hoppers' images, smells and feelings.

The Dragon is needed during the Last Battle, when Mat blows the Horn of Valere. He is needed when the three becomes one. Those three are:
The world of dreams, the world of life and the world of death.
Rand used the Blade of Light for the first time in the world of death, to free his dead mother from the Dark, to kill Myrdral and to kill Ishamael. Before he had killed Aginor in TAR (The Eye of the World can only be found with need) and he destroyed a black army in the real world.
The border between the world of death is already weakened and we can look in there world. How do you think Perrin can run with Hopper in the Last Hunt. Taking a nap during the Last Battle?

Because this is the final "Last Battle", the Dragon isn't needed any more; he will die at Tarmon Gaidon.
But Rand will live

His blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul,
washing away the Shadow, sacrifice for man’s salvation.

Terez
06-27-2010, 04:05 PM
I agree the Dragon is still one with the land. Perhaps the foodspoiling will stop, perhaps the crops will grow, but still: If the Dragon dies, the land will die.
Do we know that, though? I don't think we do. Yes, when he dies, some major things will go bad with the land (the sun will go dark, for one, and perhaps Dragonmount will blow, and some other things - the second Breaking maybe, in whatever form it will take), but I don't think it need immediately die completely. Part of why it won't is maybe because the Dragon will live on in the hearts of the people - perhaps at first just those who are close to him, but eventually I think that the majority of the people in Randland will find hope, somehow, some way (which I think is part of the point of him dying).

Has the storm already ended?
I don't think so, really, but I think Rand was most in danger of falling to it on Dragonmount, and that now he is headed in the right direction. If the storm is the power of the Shadow (which would fit with the fact that it is sensed in the north), then Rand is still in danger of that. In order to avoid falling to the storm, he has to fall before it. To live, he must die. The obvious reason is his link with Moridin; his soul is in danger of falling into Shadow hands.

I have always figured that the dead wolves would somehow be able to come to fight with the Heroes when the Horn is blown, perhaps because Perrin there when it is blown. I anticipate that they will still believe that Rand is dead at that point, and that there will be a parallel to the tomb of Jesus when it's blown, and Rand isn't there, and the Heroes (angels) tell them that this means Rand is still alive.

Also, it's possible that Perrin will be not with Mat, but in Tel'aran'rhiod when the Horn is blown, and before; I have been leaning more this way lately because I believe that Rand will be in danger from Slayer while he is dead. Like the wolves, Heroes that die in the afterlife are dead forever. Perrin will have to take care of Slayer while Nynaeve finds Rand with Need, which would have something to do with the reason why Perrin has to sharpen his skills there. Hopper keeps warning him that he will die if he keeps coming there so strongly; perhaps he will be there strongly enough to end up with the Heroes when the Horn is blown. Maybe he could pull it off without dying somehow.

There will likely be some more things going on there with the sealing also, and Egwene. And I'm starting to think that the blade of light is Aviendha's ter'angreal. There's a chance that Rand will find Shaidar Haran at Shayol Ghul just as the Dark One gains enough freedom to manifest himself fully through his avatar, and this is how Rand kills the Dark One? Who knows. Fain will be up in it somewhere. I'm willing to wait until after TOM to theorize on most of this, because I believe we'll probably get a few more clues. Gawyn will kill Rand at the end of TOM though.

Tree Brother
06-28-2010, 09:23 AM
I have always figured that the dead wolves would somehow be able to come to fight with the Heroes when the Horn is blown, perhaps because Perrin there when it is blown.

That would have to be wolves dead in the normal way. When Slayer kills wolves, he does it in TAR, which kills them permanently.

Although this idea is odd. Non-domesticated creatures have reflections in TAR. Humans have souls that are reborn, but we have indication that wolves do too -- and killing them in TAR is a permanent death.

Terez
06-28-2010, 10:30 AM
That would have to be wolves dead in the normal way. When Slayer kills wolves, he does it in TAR, which kills them permanently.
Yeah, but I'm not sure what that has to do with anything.

FelixPax
06-28-2010, 07:39 PM
That would have to be wolves dead in the normal way. When Slayer kills wolves, he does it in TAR, which kills them permanently.

Although this idea is odd. Non-domesticated creatures have reflections in TAR. Humans have souls that are reborn, but we have indication that wolves do too -- and killing them in TAR is a permanent death.


Agreed, wolves who die in the 3rd Constant are permanently dead. In essence the 3rd Constant is a back-up for 'souls'. If one lacks both a physical & a 3rd Constant, there isn't any person and/or "soul" left to live.

Even the *Finns have a soul and 3rd Constant in their parallel world, according to the logic of Verin's 'warp and the woof of the weave'.

That's another reason why going into the 3rd Constant in the flesh, is so dangerous. Die in the flesh there, and on that individual will not be reborn again.

Moghedien attempted to do the same with Birgitte, but in the reverse pulling her into the physical world in the flesh to die. However Elayne was able to help save her life by bonding her then.

Dark Prophecy suggests that Rand's soul will have a choice soon:

Two roads before him, one to death beyond dying, one to life eternal.

The Great Hunt, Chapter "Blood Calls Blood"

To live or die?

It's as if the Dark Lord knows Rand it seems will be Ripped out of the 3rd Constant. But he does not know whether or not, Rand's soul shall live or die.

Will the thought of loving again be enough for Rand to want to live again and again?

GonzoTheGreat
07-03-2010, 06:25 AM
It shall come to pass that what men made shall be shattered, and the Shadow shall lie across the Pattern of the Age, and the Dark One shall once more lay his hand upon the world of man. Women shall weep and men quail as the nations of the earth are rent like rotting cloth. Neither shall anything stand nor abide...
Yet one shall be born to face the Shadow, born once more as he was born before and shall be born again, time without end. The Dragon shall be Reborn, and there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth at his rebirth. In sackcloth and ashes shall he clothe the people, and he shall break the world again by his coming, tearing apart all ties that bind. Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.
Weep for your salvation.

from The Karaethon Cycle: The Prophecies of the Dragon, as translated by Ellaine Marise'idin Alshinn, Chief Librarian at the Court of Arafel, in the Year of Grace 231 of the New Era, the Third AgeThis seems to say that unless Rand is killed by the DO himself, the Light will lose.
Thus, either Gawyn is the actual DO, in which Egwene is a Darkfriend, and the scenario in this thread is the actual Last Battle.
Or, if Gawyn kills Rand, that destroys all hope for the Light, pre-empting the LB before it even begins.

Terez
07-03-2010, 06:56 AM
This seems to say that unless Rand is killed by the DO himself, the Light will lose.

LOL. But it doesn't. ;)

FelixPax
07-12-2010, 10:09 PM
Chuckles, Terez is correct on this one point, Gonzo.


That text quoted does not say that the Dark One has to kill Rand or the Light will lose.

Look again please.

Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us, yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle, and his blood shall give us the Light. Let tears flow, O ye people of the world.

I read "Like the unfettered dawn shall he blind us, and burn us".

That line is akin to how the Wolves describe 'female Aes Sedai who touch the wind and move the sun' to Perrin.

Aes Sedai were “two-leg shes who touch the wind that moves the sun and call fire.”

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 54 "The Sending" - Perrin point of view



Rand talked of making 'enough light' with a sa'angreal in the darkness of night, when he did by balefiring Graendal palace (tGS).

He can do the very same thing with Callandor in a linked circle of three, by creating Lightning worldwide scale. A balanced circle drawing on three of the most powerful channelers around: Rand, Alivia, and yes, the Daughter of the Night.


There is not a buffer on Callandor. Cadsuane was incorrect about the buffer on Choedan Kal protecting Nynaeve from overdrawing Saidar during the Cleansing, so how can you trust she's entirely correct about a circle of two women and one man being likewise buffered from overdrawing the Power?

L.T.T. and Rand's thoughts suggest otherwise about Callandor.


Now reading the line, "yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle", this only states a conflict shall occur in the future. It does not state what will exactly occur then. Nor does it say Rand will be killed by the Dark One. Nor dying upon the completion of re-sealing the Bore.


That line does not even state that Rand will do the re-sealing of the Bore himself. Dark Prophecy on the other hand implies some else entirely.


How about the part of the line, "and his blood shall give us the Light"?

If the Bore is re-sealed in a manner similar to the creation of cuendillar (http://encyclopaedia-wot.org/items/cuendillar.html)? How is that suppose to create 'a second dawn'?

When Egwene al'Vere turned a harbor chain in a flash into cuendillar, it did not even light up the Harbor. Let alone all of Tar Valon with "a new dawn of light".

No, some else besides the sealing of the Bore hole is going to create a second dawn of light.


There is one other thing to consider, how is the other side of the world going to see a second dawn of light?


Worldwide Lightning killing every Shadowspawn at once?

GonzoTheGreat
07-13-2010, 03:46 AM
Now reading the line, "yet shall the Dragon Reborn confront the Shadow at the Last Battle", this only states a conflict shall occur in the future. It does not state what will exactly occur then. Nor does it say Rand will be killed by the Dark One. Nor dying upon the completion of re-sealing the Bore.However, it does fairly explicitly state that it will occur during the Last Battle. If Rand snuffs it before that time, then he can't keep this appointment, and the DO will win unopposed.

So if Gawyn sticks a sword into Rand effectively, then Rand won't be around to fight in the LB at all.

FelixPax
07-13-2010, 07:39 AM
True, there will be a conflict in the Last Battle between Rand and the Shadow. Yes, if Rand dies before the the Bore is re-sealed the Dark One will win.

I still think it's impossible for Gawyn to kill Rand, and still have the Light win in the 'Last Battle'.


Maybe how we are interpreting the meaning of the word "Shadow" explains our differences here, Gonzo?

1. - Is the "Shadow" a byword for only the 'Dark One'?
2. - Or does the "Shadow" meaning include more than simply the 'Dark One'?
3. - Does it include all the pieces of the "Shadow", from Trollocs to Dragkar to Darkfriends to Myrddraal to Black Ajah to Chosen to the Dark One himself?

I suspect the Wolves name for the Rand al'Thor, Shadowkiller gives a good hint that the meaning of the "Shadow"; which is perhaps best defined by the broader definition posed in question #3.


I do not see how the "Gawyn will kill theory" deals with the foretold requirement of a "second dawn" in the same day?


If Gawyn killed Rand how is that event going to occur?

Terez
07-13-2010, 07:39 PM
However, it does fairly explicitly state that it will occur during the Last Battle. If Rand snuffs it before that time, then he can't keep this appointment, and the DO will win unopposed.

So if Gawyn sticks a sword into Rand effectively, then Rand won't be around to fight in the LB at all.
You really are an idiot aren't you?

farthammer
07-14-2010, 01:16 PM
Man this theory (and your attitude) stink worse than my username!

Ivhon
07-14-2010, 04:59 PM
Man this theory (and your attitude) stink worse than my username!

Hmmm....been a while since I've fed a troll, but lessee.

It has taken all of 2 posts in the course of a month to attack someone and draw attention to your ohsoclever name?

Generally speaking, Beavis, when you call out a theory as having a "stink," you might want to back the assertion up with something.

Just sayin'

farthammer
07-14-2010, 05:11 PM
Oh I had planned on it, but in the course of making sure it hadn't already been posted by someone else I saw enough responses from the author boil down to calling thread participants idiots to not make it worthwhile.

Just sayin'

Terez
07-14-2010, 08:39 PM
If you had actually read the thread (or the theory), you'd realize why I called Gonzo an idiot. Go away, little troll.

Neilbert
07-15-2010, 08:23 AM
Oh I had planned on it, but in the course of making sure it hadn't already been posted by someone else I saw enough responses from the author boil down to calling thread participants idiots to not make it worthwhile.

Just sayin'

Yeah, you're dumb. Just sayin'.

Ieyasu
07-16-2010, 01:28 PM
Yeah, you're dumb. Just sayin'.

I have nothing worthwhile to contribute.

Just sayin'.

FelixPax
07-16-2010, 10:04 PM
Any have thoughts on these three texts from the future?

#1. Text:
And it was written that no hand but his should wield the Sword held in the Stone, but he did draw it out, like fire in his hand, and his glory did burn the world. Thus did it begin. Thus do we sing his Rebirth. Thus do we sing the beginning.

—from Do’in Toldara te, Songs of the Last Age,
Quarto Nine: The Legend of the Dragon.
Composed by Boanne,
Songmistress at Taralan,
the Fourth Age

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 56 "People of the Dragon"


Anyone else notice that the importances of this text?

It presents an ending, and an beginning.

Callandor, fire, and 'his glory'(e.g. lightning) are part of this ending.



#2. Text:
And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


The Eye of the World, Prologue


The Oceans fled? :eek:

Shall Illian, Ebou Dar, Tanchico not be port cities in the Fourth Age?

Perhaps RJ's version of Atlantis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis) will reappear, off the coasts of Arad Doman, Shadow Coast?


The mountains were swallowed up, by what?

The Shadow, and Shadowspawn?

If so, that would fits the idea of Moridin & Company having pawns in the Black Hills, Mountain of Mists, Shadow Coast, Spine of the World et la.


Terez, how does your 'Gawyn Will Kill Rand' take into account this textual foreshadowing?

The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes.

I'm curious.


I interpret it as Lanfear and Rand dying while each draws to much of the power. Just as what occurred to the individuals who created 'The Eye of the World'. Sacrificing themselves to bring in a new Age, the Fourth Age.

"There are neither beginnings nor endings to the turning of the Wheel of Time. But it was a beginning."

The Wheel lives on...


#3. Text:
The lions sing and the hills take flight. The moon by day and the sun by night.
Blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool.
Let the Lord of Chaos rule.

—chant from a children’s game
heard in Great Arvalon,
the Fourth Age

Lord of Chaos, Prologue

"The hills take flight"?
"the mountains were swallowed up"?

What might those two lines meant if taken together?

Terez
07-16-2010, 11:24 PM
1. It makes no reference to his ending that I can see, beyond the fact that it's in past tense because it happened in the past. It's a reference to him taking Callandor, and the Stone, officially announcing his legitimacy to the world. The eyewitnesses of Falme already knew, but this gave the proof to the whole world, for those who did not choose to disbelieve it for whatever reason. I don't doubt that Callandor will play some part in the ending, though. It might not necessarily be the 'blade of light', but perhaps it was meant to teach him to work with women. He will be more likely to trust others after his healing on Dragonmount.

2. Some time in the Fourth Age, it became the legend of the Dragon. The prophecies say that Rand will in some way break the world again, but the writer from the Fourth Age was clearly referring to the actual Breaking. Aside from the title, Lews Therin was actually named Dragon by the people (rather than having been named so by his fulfillment of prophecies and his own pronouncements).

3.

"The hills take flight"?
"the mountains were swallowed up"?

What might those two lines meant if taken together?
Whatever you like, I suppose. There is nothing to connect them. However, the events that ended The Fires of Heaven are very suggestive, especially considering that Rand's rule of both Cairhien and Caemlyn in Lord of Chaos was fresh, and central to the plot.

The moon by day and the sun by night I think refers to Lanfear vs. Moiraine. Lanfear is represented by the moon, and Moiraine by the rising sun of Cairhien. The lions refer to Andor, perhaps singing because Andor did not suffer so heavily as a nation as Cairhien did. Cairhien, the Hill of the Golden Dawn, built on the highest of many hills along the Alguenya, suffered a great deal, still does not have a ruler, and we have seen many Cairhienin nobles that have come down far, from Breane Taborwin to a man that Mat diced with in the Maule, in Tear. Rand has fed them, but in the process he gave the Tairens too much influence there, and now the High Seat of House Damodred has married the Tairen king. The taking flight bit might refer to the refugees that have fled first the troubles of the Succession, and then the Shaido, or it might refer to the Aes Sedai that kidnapped Rand there, taking flight to Tar Valon. In the latter case, the singing might refer to the actions of the Aes Sedai in Caemlyn. I think it more likely to be the former explanation, though. As for blind woman, deaf man, jackdaw fool - WSB said he thought it was Elaida/Niall/Fain I think. I think that Egwene/Gawyn/Fain is more likely, or maybe Egwene/Gawyn/Rand. Mat doesn't fit.

nameless
07-17-2010, 12:30 AM
Just shooting from the hip here but Elayne Trakand is in possession of a ter'angreal activated by singing. Maybe "the lion sings" from the children's song is referring to its use?

GonzoTheGreat
07-17-2010, 03:19 AM
#1. Text:

Anyone else notice that the importances of this text?

It presents an ending, and an beginning.

Callandor, fire, and 'his glory'(e.g. lightning) are part of this ending.What I note is that this may have been written by an Aiel. And that it doesn't mention anything about him being stabbed to death by a brother of one of his concubines.
#2. Text:
Quote:And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


The Eye of the World, PrologueThis one seems to be a description of the Breaking which Lews Therin Telamon started, not the one that Rand al'Thor is supposed to bring about.

I would say that that is a rather important detail, since it makes the quote irrelevant to the present debate.

#3 was covered by Terez fairly well, I think.

Terez
07-24-2010, 11:31 AM
Go away, little troll.