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Frenzy
05-10-2010, 01:39 AM
So i go to Yahoo to check my e-mail, glance at the pic in the news (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_supreme_court)window, and wonder why Mike Myers is in drag.

GonzoTheGreat
05-10-2010, 04:03 AM
She would be the third Jewish justice along with six Catholics. With Stevens' retirement, the court will have no Protestants, the most prevalent denomination in the United States.Could someone remind me again: why is their religion supposed to be important?

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 09:21 AM
Could someone remind me again: why is their religion supposed to be important?

It's not, unless you're in the media and trying to stir up a new story.

Frenzy, thank god you said that and I didn't have too. You won't get nearly as much shit for it being a female (type, sorta) person. Somebody would have held it against me for my "that bitch looks like Mike Myers" quote.

Basel Gill
05-10-2010, 09:42 AM
All apparent lack of visual appeal aside, it appears that Davian's call was correct. We were talking about this and he said it looked like she was likely. As with anyone, you can never REALLY know what they're like until they take their position, but from what I've read about her, The Bamster certainly could have nominated someone much more irritating. I actually don't have too many objections to this one. Go figure...

irerancincpkc
05-10-2010, 11:32 AM
She's too conservative for my tastes, but that may fix itself over time, like it did with Stevens... hopefully...

Basel Gill
05-10-2010, 11:37 AM
She's too conservative for my tastes, but that may fix itself over time, like it did with Stevens... hopefully...

I never thought I'd hear someone say that an Obama pick was too conservative. THAT is just way too funny! :D

P.S. I'm really not trying to start anything here, it's just that to me it's like Gene Hackman in the Birdcage going on that rant about Bob Dole, The Pope, Billy Graham, etc. being too liberal.

Ivhon
05-10-2010, 12:14 PM
I never thought I'd hear someone say that an Obama pick was too conservative. THAT is just way too funny! :D

P.S. I'm really not trying to start anything here, it's just that to me it's like Gene Hackman in the Birdcage going on that rant about Bob Dole, The Pope, Billy Graham, etc. being too liberal.

Well...Sotomeyor is quite moderate. So is Kagan. Again, Obama is playing quite close to the center, its just that the Right has gone SOOOO far right that they can't recognize "moderate" anymore.

Truly liberal people would and do view both of these picks as being more conservative than they would like to see. Both are further to the center than the justices they replace. Both bring the court further right. Neither balance the extremely conservative members currently on the court (Alito, Scalia, Thomas....Roberts to a slightly lesser extent).

Im still baffled as to how so many people on the right view Obama as this extreme hyper-liberal when almost everything he has done has been from a centrist stance. I can only think that people think that because Conservative talking heads say so.

EDIT: some things that might be truly liberal

Pulling all troops out of the middle east. Period.
Pushing hard for public option in the health care bill.
Repealing Don't Ask/Don't Tell (I don't view this as all that liberal...but the fact that he hasn't done it yet shows the deference he is paying to conservative elements)
Pushing for a ban on offshore drilling
Pushing for massive gun restrictions
Vetoing a healthcare bill that had anti-choice language in it

Yes, he is left of center. But that doesn't make him "the most liberal President in US history" as Newt termed him. C'mon.

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 12:31 PM
Well...Sotomeyor is quite moderate. So is Kagan. Again, Obama is playing quite close to the center, its just that the Right has gone SOOOO far right that they can't recognize "moderate" anymore.

Truly liberal people would and do view both of these picks as being more conservative than they would like to see. Both are further to the center than the justices they replace. Both bring the court further right. Neither balance the extremely conservative members currently on the court (Alito, Scalia, Thomas....Roberts to a slightly lesser extent).

Im still baffled as to how so many people on the right view Obama as this extreme hyper-liberal when almost everything he has done has been from a centrist stance. I can only think that people think that because Conservative talking heads say so.

EDIT: some things that might be truly liberal

Pulling all troops out of the middle east. Period.
Pushing hard for public option in the health care bill.
Repealing Don't Ask/Don't Tell (I don't view this as all that liberal...but the fact that he hasn't done it yet shows the deference he is paying to conservative elements)
Pushing for a ban on offshore drilling
Pushing for massive gun restrictions
Vetoing a healthcare bill that had anti-choice language in it

Yes, he is left of center. But that doesn't make him "the most liberal President in US history" as Newt termed him. C'mon.

Riddle me this, Batman. Who, in our lifetimes, has been more liberal? I'm can't think of anyone as liberal as him in US history, but I'm not much on what happened before I was born.

Ivhon
05-10-2010, 12:41 PM
Riddle me this, Batman. Who, in our lifetimes, has been more liberal? I'm can't think of anyone as liberal as him in US history, but I'm not much on what happened before I was born.

Our lifetimes <<<<<<<<<<<< US History.

Now. As for our lifetimes, it kindof depends on what you are using as your criteria for "liberal."

If it is just fiscal policy, then Clinton is the most Conservative President in our lifetime. Reagan, W. and perhaps Obama the most liberal.

If you look at social progressive...ness(?) again, Obama is not showing himself to be terribly liberal.

Basel Gill
05-10-2010, 12:42 PM
Well, as an "uber-con" (haha) I still see both of the Sup. Court nominees as moderate. Best decisions he's made in office so far (such as it is).

The talking heads have my ear on occasion but not my brain. It just seems interesting given the other things he's been so brash about, why give the Sup. Court a "pass" on the agenda? Only thing I can think of is damage control. He can now say that "everything" he did was not ultra-left.

I know we disagree on definition of ultra-left, just using the term as a point of reference for me and to antagonize a wee bit...:D

One Armed Gimp
05-10-2010, 01:32 PM
If it is just fiscal policy, then Clinton is the most Conservative President in our lifetime. Reagan, W. and perhaps Obama the most liberal.

Maybe I am off on my fiscal policy debates, but really? Government spending aside (since no recent president has actually decreased or even just maintained spending levels), have you looked at tax policy during those times?

---On Topic---
I think Obama is starting the centrist shift that most presidents seem to do. Also, I don't know many people personally that honestly see him as extreme left, just more left than we would like.

JSUCamel
05-10-2010, 01:50 PM
Maybe I am off on my fiscal policy debates, but really? Government spending aside (since no recent president has actually decreased or even just maintained spending levels), have you looked at tax policy during those times?

Yes, really. I believe we discussed this rather recently. :rolleyes:

Sinistrum
05-10-2010, 01:51 PM
"Its a man baby!"

Kimon
05-10-2010, 02:47 PM
Riddle me this, Batman. Who, in our lifetimes, has been more liberal? I'm can't think of anyone as liberal as him in US history, but I'm not much on what happened before I was born.

Well he's definetly less liberal than Lincoln (Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation...), Teddy Roosevelt (first president to demonstrate any concern for worker's rights, safe food, and the environment...), FDR (the New Deal...), and LBJ (Civil Rights reform, Medicare, Medicaid...). Now he may be the most liberal since LBJ, but honestly, he's really not much more liberal even than Nixon, Ford, and Carter. It's just that in our lifetime (or at least mine, as I was born in '78) we can only compare him as being decidedly to the left of Reagan, slightly left of the Elder Bush and Clinton, and decidedly left of the Younger Bush. Considering that the 4 that I mentioned as farther left were 4 of our best presidents Obama is definitely not too liberal, heck he isn't liberal enough (at least not for my taste). I often can't help but wonder, do conservatives actually think that Calvin Coolidge was a good president, cause that seems to be the archetype that they are holding up, even if they don't realize it, and while Hoover got most of the blame for the Great Depression, it was Coolidge's policies that caused it. Oh, and that was the same laissez-faire idiocy that caused our recent woes.

One Armed Gimp
05-10-2010, 04:16 PM
Well he's definetly less liberal than Lincoln (Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation...)

My presidential history must be off as well. I never knew that imprisonment without trial and suspending habeas corpus were liberal ideals.

On the flip side though, I have always found it somewhat funny that Republicans invoke his name as an example of Republicanism and what a President should be like. They trumpet states rights and yet proudly lay claim to a man that greatly increased the power of the national government over those of the states.

irerancincpkc
05-10-2010, 04:19 PM
Also, I don't know many people personally that honestly see him as extreme left, just more left than we would like.

Speak for yourself... ;)

Don't get me wrong, like the guy a lot, hes a huge improvement, but as with this supreme court pick, some things hes done...

Kimon
05-10-2010, 04:28 PM
My presidential history must be off as well. I never knew that imprisonment without trial and suspending habeas corpus were liberal ideals.



They're not, but he was quelling a rebellion, so clearly allowances need to be made. All four of the men I noted have similar caveats. Teddy Roosevelt incited a civil war in Columbia so that he could create the nation of Panama and build the Panama Canal. FDR forced Japanese American civilians into internment camps during WWII out of fear that they would spy or commit sabotage for Japan. LBJ escalated the Vietnam War. Still, in balance all were more liberal than Obama has been so far. Still, all (even LBJ) were great presidents.

Belazamon
05-10-2010, 04:51 PM
I really have to start reading thread titles more carefully. At first I thought this was going to be a thread about the Kurgan.

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k320/jalapenoguy/Kurgan.jpg

Basel Gill
05-10-2010, 05:00 PM
There can be only one, Highlander.

Love that movie. I wish someone would re-make it and expand on it a little. Somewhere in the middle of the original movie and the series. (Ignore the sequels altogether though...ack).

On topic: It's funny that a few of the right leaning folks make a statement about the SCOTUS nominee not being too awful bad and all the lefties go on about her not being left enough...I mean where's the bi-partisanship???;)

This will mark exactly 3 times that Obama has done something that I either agree with or do not object to and it is drawing criticism from his own party. I guess the guy really CAN'T win huh?

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 05:07 PM
Well he's definetly less liberal than Lincoln (Civil War and the Emancipation Proclamation...), Teddy Roosevelt (first president to demonstrate any concern for worker's rights, safe food, and the environment...), FDR (the New Deal...), and LBJ (Civil Rights reform, Medicare, Medicaid...). Now he may be the most liberal since LBJ, but honestly, he's really not much more liberal even than Nixon, Ford, and Carter. It's just that in our lifetime (or at least mine, as I was born in '78) we can only compare him as being decidedly to the left of Reagan, slightly left of the Elder Bush and Clinton, and decidedly left of the Younger Bush. Considering that the 4 that I mentioned as farther left were 4 of our best presidents Obama is definitely not too liberal, heck he isn't liberal enough (at least not for my taste). I often can't help but wonder, do conservatives actually think that Calvin Coolidge was a good president, cause that seems to be the archetype that they are holding up, even if they don't realize it, and while Hoover got most of the blame for the Great Depression, it was Coolidge's policies that caused it. Oh, and that was the same laissez-faire idiocy that caused our recent woes.

If you break it down like Ivhon did, then all of those men were liberals. I don't think any of them were as liberal as Obama though, Carter was close (I was born in '70, Carter was the first president I remember).

This is what I hate about our politics. Obama is a liberal as far as fiscal policy goes...even bordering on socialist with a tad bit of fascist thrown in. Then on social policies he tries to ride a centrist line...but it's basically the same line that Bush rode (immigration, gay marriage, etc, a lot of talk with no commitment). Yet, libs still hate Bush and conservatives still hate Obama.

I despise Obama, I despise Bush. I hate everyone in congress, I don't think there is a single person in DC who should be allowed to stay and I really wish all of the senate was up for re-election in Nov. I think this recent election in Utah shows that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

On another note, I got to speak with my representative the other day, the venerable and dickheaded, thumb up his ass, Steve Cohen. He was very upset with me by the time the conversation ended. I think if someone is a son of bitch, I should be allowed to call them one, free speech and all that. He really lost it when I told him he was a piece of sh!t and I wouldn't be voting for him this year and I hoped he went off to some hole in Memphis and licked dog balls the rest of his long and inevitably sad life. He could have hung up at any time, but he chose to stay on the line. Pretty dumb in my opinion. He did yell a lot, but I did too, so I guess it was fun. I enjoyed it anyway. Made me all happy and giggly. My wife thought it was pretty funny too...she choked on her pizza laughing. I hope he wrote my name down and remembers it for a long time

Crispin's Crispian
05-10-2010, 06:14 PM
Obama is a liberal as far as fiscal policy goes...even bordering on socialist with a tad bit of fascist thrown in.I have a hard time characterizing the bailouts as socialist or even liberal. It's like calling Reagan liberal for his massive defense spending. I realize they weren't Obama's idea initially, but he was more than happy to continue supporting the corporate and banking hegemony.

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 06:48 PM
I have a hard time characterizing the bailouts as socialist or even liberal. It's like calling Reagan liberal for his massive defense spending. I realize they weren't Obama's idea initially, but he was more than happy to continue supporting the corporate and banking hegemony.

I have a big problem with comparing defense spending, which is constitutionally required, with bailing out...chevrolet, for one, which is not constitutionally required. Bush was an idiot for starting it and Obama is equally suspect for continuing the practice, especially carrying it on to bailing out Greece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/business/global/01euro.html?src=mv).

I also find it fascinating that healthcare is on the top of the list to go byebye.

Ivhon
05-10-2010, 06:54 PM
I have a big problem with comparing defense spending, which is constitutionally required, with bailing out...chevrolet, for one, which is not constitutionally required. Bush was an idiot for starting it and Obama is equally suspect for continuing the practice, especially carrying it on to bailing out Greece (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/01/business/global/01euro.html?src=mv).

I also find it fascinating that healthcare is on the top of the list to go byebye.

I don't think it is constitutionally required to do what Reagan did on defense spending. Please show where in the Constitution it says anything about running up massive deficits for fairy-tail military projects. Yes, it is necessary government to maintain a military - however, that does NOT mean that selling half the country to Japan (as Reagan did) to fund any and all military projects that anyone could think of is Constitutionally justified.

Oh, and you do know that the bulk of the TARP and auto bailouts have been paid back with interest, right? I ask because it gets almost no press and I know that Republicans are throwing out the original bailout numbers without subtracting what has been paid back.

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 07:21 PM
I don't think it is constitutionally required to do what Reagan did on defense spending. Please show where in the Constitution it says anything about running up massive deficits for fairy-tail military projects. Yes, it is necessary government to maintain a military - however, that does NOT mean that selling half the country to Japan (as Reagan did) to fund any and all military projects that anyone could think of is Constitutionally justified.

Oh, and you do know that the bulk of the TARP and auto bailouts have been paid back with interest, right? I ask because it gets almost no press and I know that Republicans are throwing out the original bailout numbers without subtracting what has been paid back.

On point one, we disagree.


On point two, I'd like to see how much has been paid back. I can't find anything on it, but I'm not looking real hard either because I'm trying to fry chicken and make gravy at the same time.

Ivhon
05-10-2010, 07:30 PM
On point one, we disagree.


On point two, I'd like to see how much has been paid back. I can't find anything on it, but I'm not looking real hard either because I'm trying to fry chicken and make gravy at the same time.

Make me some chicken and gravy. I dont have a fridge.

Here is the wiki write up on TARP. Plenty of citations in there, including conservative sources (WSJ). Down to 89B or 42% less than the S&L bailouts under Reagan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 08:21 PM
Make me some chicken and gravy. I dont have a fridge.

Here is the wiki write up on TARP. Plenty of citations in there, including conservative sources (WSJ). Down to 89B or 42% less than the S&L bailouts under Reagan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troubled_Asset_Relief_Program

I made you some...but then it fell off my plate and into my mouth. Sorry.

Ivhon
05-10-2010, 08:35 PM
I made you some...but then it fell off my plate and into my mouth. Sorry.

Fine. Whatever. Starving will melt some of the fat off, at least.

Hope you enjoyed it.

Sei'taer
05-10-2010, 09:12 PM
Fine. Whatever. Starving will melt some of the fat off, at least.

Hope you enjoyed it.

Oh, I did. If there was any left I'd take a picture so you could be jealous...and more hungry.

irerancincpkc
05-10-2010, 11:48 PM
I despise Obama, I despise Bush. I hate everyone in congress, I don't think there is a single person in DC who should be allowed to stay and I really wish all of the senate was up for re-election in Nov. I think this recent election in Utah shows that I'm not the only one who feels that way.

I'm pretty sure you would hate anyone who got elected to Congress... :D

That's a pretty broad statement, by the way. I am of the opinion that they all do the best they can, given the system. I don't think any of us could do any better.

Matoyak
05-11-2010, 12:21 AM
I am of the opinion that they all do the best they can, given the system.WUT.

GonzoTheGreat
05-11-2010, 04:25 AM
I don't think it is constitutionally required to do what Reagan did on defense spending. Please show where in the Constitution it says anything about running up massive deficits for fairy-tail military projects.Ordinarily, I would assume that you meant "fairy tale". However, since this is the Star Wars case, you may have written exactly what you intended.

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 07:42 AM
I'm pretty sure you would hate anyone who got elected to Congress... :D

That's a pretty broad statement, by the way. I am of the opinion that they all do the best they can, given the system. I don't think any of us could do any better.

I'm pretty sure that I said exactly what I meant. No person currently serving in congress should be re-elected in November. None. Zero. Not a single one. Nada.

I don't believe in term limits, but I also don't believe in I've been here since 1968 and I'm mighty comfortable in where I am. I think the problem with these people is that they get comfortable. They should never be allowed to be comfortable.

irerancincpkc
05-11-2010, 09:29 AM
I think the problem with these people is that they get comfortable. They should never be allowed to be comfortable.

That's our fault...

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 09:41 AM
That's our fault...

Yes, it is. It's also our fault for letting the politicians get fat, lazy, and comfortable. I just think it's time we make them very uncomfortable.

And about my earlier statement. There isn't a single politician in DC that I think is worth saving. Not one. Will new ones be better? I have no idea, but it has to change somehow.

yks 6nnetu hing
05-11-2010, 10:09 AM
This will mark exactly 3 times that Obama has done something that I either agree with or do not object to and it is drawing criticism from his own party. I guess the guy really CAN'T win huh?

captain obvious to the rescue!

that is how democracy works.

duh.

*goes back to reading threads that are interesting. On the Newbie board.*

Basel Gill
05-11-2010, 10:19 AM
captain obvious to the rescue!

that is how democracy works.

duh.

*goes back to reading threads that are interesting. On the Newbie board.*

Nice.

JSUCamel
05-11-2010, 11:07 AM
it has to change somehow.

Sounds... familiar... somehow...

Basel Gill
05-11-2010, 11:21 AM
Camel, can't have "change" without the "hope" and Taer sounds as if he's lost his hope. :eek:

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 01:25 PM
Camel, can't have "change" without the "hope" and Taer sounds as if he's lost his hope. :eek:

I didn't have any hope for this president, so I didn't lose it. I haven't had any hope in the rest of them for a long time now.

Neilbert
05-11-2010, 01:34 PM
Fine. Whatever. Starving will melt some of the fat off, at least.

Hope you enjoyed it.

That's actually the opposite of true...

Kimon
05-11-2010, 02:01 PM
I didn't have any hope for this president, so I didn't lose it. I haven't had any hope in the rest of them for a long time now.

Can't help but wonder if this was the way that Ishamael began down that road of despair to the dark side of the force- maybe your congressman should make sure to remember your name, just in case...

Sei'taer
05-11-2010, 04:56 PM
Can't help but wonder if this was the way that Ishamael began down that road of despair to the dark side of the force- maybe your congressman should make sure to remember your name, just in case...

He better.