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Terez
05-12-2010, 09:57 PM
I've been thinking about Logain's glory, and I'm not really all that sure that his taking control of the Asha'man is the extent of it, even if he leads a successful battle against the Darkfriends at the Black Tower.

If there's anything that will be glory-inspiring during the Last Battle, I have a tendency to think of Lan and the Golden Crane. And that led me to thinking about Lan's disgruntlement with Aes Sedai in New Spring, over the fact that Malkier died because no Aes Sedai came to help, and he only allowed Moiraine to bond him because she gave him Tower secrets: that they could not get there in time, and hid over the fact that they had tried so as to not damage the Tower's reputation of omnipotence.

So, it would be pretty random to assume that Logain would play this role at the Last Battle, just because it would be a nice slice of glory and a nice balance to what the Aes Sedai did not do when Malkier fell. But in TGS, there was Rand's whole cold attitude about Lan that drove Nynaeve crazy. And while Rand healed the cold and hard part of himself at Dragonmount, Egwene's dream indicates that Rand will at the very least appear to be dead when Logain does his thing.

Then, there is the fact that Nynaeve Healed Logain, and Logain wouldn't be doing anything without that. So it would be a nice indirect way of Nynaeve protecting her man in the Blight to go along with her direct recruiting of his army (and of course, there's nothing to prevent Nynaeve from having some sort of direct involvement here - calling in the favor that Logain owes her).

Oh, and Moiraine will probably be back from the dead by then, so she might well have something to do with it too.

ckparrothead
05-13-2010, 10:22 PM
So his glory would be in restoring Malkier? That would be interesting.

Gareth Tomlinson
05-13-2010, 10:36 PM
Surely his glory would be greater than that.
I believe Min thinks to herself "he would know more glory than any man who had lived".

GonzoTheGreat
05-14-2010, 04:09 AM
Maybe a Rand-Logain body swap? :p

One Armed Gimp
05-14-2010, 07:18 AM
So his glory would be in restoring Malkier? That would be interesting.

His "glory and power" would come from both taking control of the BT and leading the Asha'man to battle in the north. At least that is how I am reading it. I think Terez is saying that taking control of the BT starts to fulfill what Min said. The glory part would be in what he does with that control, like aid Lan.

Tercel
05-14-2010, 09:16 AM
Surely his glory would be greater than that.
I believe Min thinks to herself "he would know more glory than any man who had lived".No, I'm sure it wasn't that. I think it was "[glory] such as few men dreamed of".

I believe Logain will become the Amyrlin Seat. The White and Black Towers will unite, and there will be equality within the leadership hierarchy with duplicate gender appointments at each level - Logain will be the male Amyrlin and Egwene the female one.


Although, another pet theory I've been toying with is that Logain will substitute in as 'Dragon' for Rand after the last battle. After Rand has won he will want to abandon all responsibility and leadership and retire to enjoy life with his harem. Logain will, at that point, pretend to the world that he is Rand and himself continue Rand's role of leadership.


Okay, so my theories conflict... again...

Terez
05-14-2010, 09:19 AM
Well, I agree that Logain will probably lead the Asha'man, and there's a possibility that will extend to the Aes Sedai as well - I still believe that Tar Valon will be destroyed - but glory is typically achieved in battle, which is why my mind goes to Lan. And no, he wouldn't technically be 'restoring' Malkier; just saving Lan and Co. from certain death against the Shadowspawn.

Strongman
05-14-2010, 09:20 AM
I've always thought that his most of his glory would be that he gets credit for Rands deeds.

Weird Harold
05-14-2010, 05:53 PM
I've always thought that his most of his glory would be that he gets credit for Rands deeds.
That's not Logain's glory, it is Rand's.

Min's viewing(s) of Logain's Glory are indicated by a bright aura of blue and gold and that doesn't suggest to me that the Glory is going to be tainted by being stolen or usurped; the glory will be earned by Logain's own actions.

The most logical source of Logain's Glory is in him being Rand's logical successor as "Overlord of the West" or "Supreme Commander" upon Rand's death in battle and bringing order back to the WOT after the chaos generated by, or surrounding, T'G.

FelixPax
05-14-2010, 07:28 PM
Well, I agree that Logain will probably lead the Asha'man,

How will Logain lead 'the' Asha'man, as in 'all' of them completely?

I'm skeptical of the 'scope' of that claim, not that Logain will lead many Asha'men into war and gain glory for the Light during the Last Battle. The usage of 'the' versus 'a' matters here.

This mistaken scope emphasis, might led a reader to forget about the leadership role of Jahar Narishma. He will not play second fiddle to Logain among the Asha'man (KoD, tGS), whatever Logain's glory is in the future.

Jahar is one of the few Asha'man Rand al'Thor, Nynaeve, Cadsuane's Aes Sedai faction, Salidar Aes Sedai faction all know of and who can all trust.

Logain on the other hand is not fully trusted, by most Aes Sedai because of past conflicts in Ghealdan and in Murandy. Where Aes Sedai died in those conflicts. Logain also has the fallout from the "Extra Bit" coming up, with Egwene's re-united White Tower. Jahar lacks this past bad blood in most Aes Sedai's mind. Jahar unlike Logain, was bonded by an Aes Sedai, Merise. The nature of that bond between Merise and Jahar, I believe is going to be altered, to become a balanced relationship between Aes Sedai and Asha'man. Jahar and Merise relationship, will come to symbolize the relationship between the Guardians and the Servants.

Jahar is the one Asha'man who for political and leadership reasons can be a common unifier.


- but glory is typically achieved in battle, which is why my mind goes to Lan.

That's odd, because I'd think Jahar would be the one to lead many of the Asha'man in the Borderlands. Jahar was a Borderlander after all, an Arafellin.

Logain is far more knowledgeable about nations to the south of the Borderlands: Ghealdan, Murandy, Andor, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Altara.

In just seems more logical for Logain to help aid the war effort on the 'Southern Flank' against the Shadowspawn coming out of the Shadow Coast Mountains.

Already once before Logain has won multiple battles in Ghealdan, Northern Altara, Murandy with a ragtag army, before being defeated by a pre-split White Tower outside of Lugard. Logain now has a real army, and has far more knowledge of warfare than before. If there's to be a fight in Ghealdan to Altara to Murandy again, Logain knows the lay of the land very well and he has the abilities to win now.

That would also set-up the possibility of a future meeting between Logain and the currently single Queen of Ghealdan Alliandre Maritha Kigarin; who requires a single nobleman to wed to retain her throne.

Laugh, yes...Logain just might wed Alliandre Maritha Kigarin. I do think that Toveine Gazal at some time in the future will be released from Logain's bonding AND the "Extra Bit". Gabrelle on the other hand, I think might be really falling in love with Logain... and decide to retain the bonding to Logain but lose the "Extra Bit".

JSUCamel
05-14-2010, 09:04 PM
Logain is far more knowledgeable about nations to the south of the Borderlands: Ghealdan, Murandy, Andor, Cairhien, Tear, Illian, Altara.

In just seem more logical for Logain to help aid the war effort on the 'Southern Flank' against the Shadowspawn coming out of the Shadow Coast Mountains.

Excellent! I've never felt comfortable with the idea of Logain leading the Asha'man, because of precisely the reasons you mentioned, but at the same time, I never really considered it deeply enough to determine who else might become the new Asha'man leader, and I never really figured out what else Logain might do instead... and this really sums it up nicely. Well done!

Sei'taer
05-14-2010, 11:38 PM
Excellent! I've never felt comfortable with the idea of Logain leading the Asha'man, because of precisely the reasons you mentioned, but at the same time, I never really considered it deeply enough to determine who else might become the new Asha'man leader, and I never really figured out what else Logain might do instead... and this really sums it up nicely. Well done!

Yeah...and I also remember something about Logain and a crown. Am I remembering that correctly? I don't know that the Aes Sedai, male or not, would be comfortable (or comforting for that matter) wearing a crown of any sort.

Terez
05-14-2010, 11:48 PM
Yeah...and I also remember something about Logain and a crown. Am I remembering that correctly?
No. Unless you're thinking of his sigil. Min had viewings of other people with crowns (Perrin, Elayne, and Darlin right off the top of my head), but not Logain. Just a halo.

Tercel
05-15-2010, 12:30 AM
Min's viewing(s) of Logain's Glory are indicated by a bright aura of blue and gold and that doesn't suggest to me that the Glory is going to be tainted by being stolen or usurped;Hmmm, remember what happened last time we read stuff into the colours of auras in Min's viewings, and blue and gold ones at that?

Let's recall: Sheriam's aura was blue and gold (and silver), surely indicating good stuff right? Of course it turned out that the aura referred to the moment of her execution for being Black Ajah. :eek:

I just don't think it's a good idea to argue from Logain's aura colours to how he'll gain the glory.

Weird Harold
05-15-2010, 01:48 AM
Yeah...and I also remember something about Logain and a crown. Am I remembering that correctly?

You're thinking of Min's description of the Halo in tFoH Ch 1.


TSR,Ch47
Logain - that flaring halo of gold and blue shone about his head, speaking of glory to come.
TFoH,Ch1
Logain - a halo flared around his head, a radiant crown of gold and blue.


I included the tSR viewing for comparison purposes.

Rahvin571
05-15-2010, 11:39 PM
Yeah...and I also remember something about Logain and a crown. Am I remembering that correctly? I don't know that the Aes Sedai, male or not, would be comfortable (or comforting for that matter) wearing a crown of any sort.

Remember, the Aes Sedai wanted to make Elayne an Aes Sedai queen so this shouldn't be anything that novel.

Sei'taer
05-16-2010, 01:01 AM
Remember, the Aes Sedai wanted to make Elayne an Aes Sedai queen so this shouldn't be anything that novel.

Elayne will be the first queen who is also Aes Sedai for generations. The oaths are for the same reason. I think that the King of Aes Sedai would seem a little overbearing.

Wantanswers
05-16-2010, 03:35 PM
Elayne will be the first queen who is also Aes Sedai for generations. The oaths are for the same reason. I think that the King of Aes Sedai would seem a little overbearing.

A little overbearing? Probably. But you should also remember his sigil: three golden crowns on a blue background.(KoD, chapter 22)

Terez
05-16-2010, 06:11 PM
He could be king of Ghealdan. We'd have to get rid of Alliandre somehow though.

Weird Harold
05-16-2010, 08:20 PM
He could be king of Ghealdan. We'd have to get rid of Alliandre somehow though.
Alliandre and Logain have never met, have they? Perhaps a co-regency in Ghealdan?

Terez
05-17-2010, 03:19 AM
Yes, I think I'd considered that before, too. But he's already got Gabrelle and Toveine. :D

Also, I figure that a crown might result from his glory, but there's nothing particularly glorious about being king of Ghealdan. Nor do I think there is anything inherently glorious about being a leader of the Asha'man, or the New-fangled Muckety-muck Channelers' Union. It's prestigious, but glory comes from doing grand deeds in battle. Yeah, if Logain kicks Darkfriend ass at the Black Tower, there's some opportunity for glory there. But there's also that opportunity for symmetry with Malkier.

GonzoTheGreat
05-17-2010, 05:29 AM
Yeah, if Logain kicks Darkfriend ass at the Black Tower, there's some opportunity for glory there. But there's also that opportunity for symmetry with Malkier.He could do both, of course. Taim might start running when things go banana shaped* for him, and he could very well end up in the middle of a battle, if he seeks out the nearest Shadow stronghold. If Logain is following, then he too would take part in that battle.

* Can someone explain to me why that would be less bad than things going pear shaped?

Terez
05-17-2010, 07:05 AM
He could do both, of course.
Yes, I assume that he will. At least, I assume that he will definitely kick Darkfriend ass at the Black Tower, but I suspect that there is more to his glory, and I think the Malkier bit would be nice symmetry.

greatwolf
05-17-2010, 12:17 PM
Min's viewing(s) of Logain's Glory are indicated by a bright aura of blue and gold and that doesn't suggest to me that the Glory is going to be tainted by being stolen or usurped; the glory will be earned by Logain's own actions.


That reminds me, didn't Min have a viewing of Logain stepping across Rand's body? Or was it Egwene? Or just nonsense? :)

Weird Harold
05-17-2010, 06:52 PM
That reminds me, didn't Min have a viewing of Logain stepping across Rand's body? Or was it Egwene? Or just nonsense? :)
Egwene Dreamed it:

ACoS,Ch10
Logain, laughing, steps over something onto a black stone. It looks like Rand's body, but when she touches his face it breaks like paper puppet.

Crispin's Crispian
05-17-2010, 08:05 PM
Egwene Dreamed it:

ACoS,Ch10
Logain, laughing, steps over something onto a black stone. It looks like Rand's body, but when she touches his face it breaks like paper puppet.

The Dream seems to indicate that (a) Logain isn't troubled by Rand's death or is exploiting it, and (b) Rand's death is temporary. Of course, (b) could be the cause of Logain's laughter.

I don't really see the connection to Malkier, except via Nynaeve. I mean, I guess there is some symmetry with Malkier's fall, but it would be better for the White Tower to send aid, not the previously unconnected Black Tower.

That said, I definitely agree that "glory" isn't something you get by just being a leader. Logain has to do something that will make him glorious, and in these times that typically means battle-won glory.

It could be as simple as him leading the Black Tower as a Great Captain-type figure--the first channeling great general since the War of Power. As Rand's second-in-command (once Taim is dead), he could also attain some glory by offing Demandred.

ckparrothead
05-18-2010, 02:10 PM
I'm with Terez on her feelings about what "glory" could be...to me it's not just getting a throne or becoming the Tamyrlin (or was that proven NOT to be the male equivalent of Amyrlin? I forget...).

True glory, the kind that Min speaks of, has to be something else. And I think when you tie it in with Egwene's dream, I don't want to say it's OBVIOUS or anything...but it seems very, very set up to where Logain is going to lead the forces that "defeat" the Dark One after Rand "dies".

I use quotation marks because there are obviously going to be things going on that make the scenario anything but simple. I don't pretend to know exactly how things are going to play out but I think a lot of folks have good reason to assume that:

A) Rand will be the one that defeats the Dark One for realz,

B) Rand is going to die but somehow live.

As for my own thoughts on framing some loose ends that could tie into this whole thing, there's the "Who draws it out shall follow after" prophecy that many had assumed to be Jahar Narishma but I am starting to agree with several in thinking that because Rand, and not the pattern, forced that prophecy into fulfillment, it means it hasn't actually been fulfilled. We're about to get Moiraine back into the storyline and so there's a convenient tool for Sanderson to use to explain why Rand did not necessarily fulfill that prophecy just by jamming Callandor into the floor. She's always shown a way with interpreting the Pattern. I mean he literally read a book, did some One Power hocus pocus, drove Callandor into the Heart of the Stone and happily scratched one off the bucket list. I tend not to think that prophecy is filled that way, that the Pattern wants its say in how that doily comes out.

Terez has a fun Theory (used the capital 'T' to satisfy the more fundamentalist Theorylanders) about Gawyn shoving Justice right through Rand's heart (or was it the other way around?), and maybe the one who draws it out being the owner of the hand that can grasp that "fearful blade". That may be. But I still tend to think the blade in question will be Callandor, though I do not know in which scenario it will be shoved in a heart for someone to follow after. One thing I do know is if Logain has Toveine and Gabrelle, he has a way of being able to use Callandor without going insane.

Anyway, I think Rand is going to die but not really die (in some way), that when he does so Logain is going to lead the strike at Shayol Ghul, that Rand will somehow from his undead status manage to defeat the Dark One but that the world will know of Logain as the one who defeated the Dark One.

greatwolf
05-24-2010, 07:10 AM
The Dream seems to indicate that (a) Logain isn't troubled by Rand's death or is exploiting it, and (b) Rand's death is temporary. Of course, (b) could be the cause of Logain's laughter.


Since I've still got major issues with my Pc and monitor, I'll have to rely on others here.


I agree about Logain Having to do more for the glory bit, but didn't that dream indicate that Logain was holding a shiny object? Perhaps Callandor that would make Logain the one that follows after but it could also be some sort of terangreal that could allow him close the DO's prison.

Weird Harold
05-24-2010, 08:31 AM
...but didn't that dream indicate that Logain was holding a shiny object?

No.

You're thinking of another Dream from moments later:


Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Randís body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.


A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. [b]A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.[b]

I think the dark young man with the shining object is Jahar Narishma, but I can't guarantee that because the "man lay dying" just above it is probably Rand and she doesn't recognise him there so there's no reason to expect she'd recognise Narishma if she ever met him.

A paragraph earlier, she did recognise Logain and 'Rand' so it would seem probable that she'd recognise them in the latter case, too, but Dream symbology is weird. :D


For further context, here's all of egwene's Dreams from aCos Ch 10:

Firmly she made herself step back to her sleeping body, but not to ordinary sleep. She never did that anymore. That one corner of her brain remained fully aware, cataloging her dreams, filing away those that foretold the future, or at any rate gave glimpses of the possible course it might take. At least she could tell that much now, though the only one she had been able to interpret so far was the dream that told of Gawyn becoming her Warder. Aes Sedai called this Dreaming, and the women who could do it Dreamers, all long dead but her, yet it had no more to do with the One Power than dreamwalking did.


Perhaps it was inevitable she should dream first of Gawyn, because she had been thinking of him.


She stood in a vast, dim chamber where everything was indistinct. Everything except Gawyn, slowly coming toward her. A tall, beautiful man - had she ever thought his half-brother Galad was more beautiful? - with golden hair and eyes of the most wonderful deep blue. He had some distance to cover yet, but he could see her; his gaze was fixed on her like an archer's on the target. A faint sound of crunching and grating hung in the air. She looked down. And felt a scream building in her. On bare feet, Gawyn walked across a floor of broken glass, shards breaking at every slow step. Even in that faint light she could see the trail of blood left by his slashed feet. She flung out a hand, tried to shout for him to stop, tried to run to him, but just that quickly she was elsewhere.


In the way of dreams she floated above a long, straight road across a grassy plain, looking down upon a man riding a black stallion. Gawyn. Then she was standing in the road in front of him, and he reined in. Not because he saw her, this time, but the road that had been straight now forked right where she stood, running over tall hills so no one could see what lay beyond. She knew, though. Down one fork was his violent death, down the other, a long life and a death in bed. On one path, he would marry her, on the other, not. She knew what lay ahead, but not which way led to which. Suddenly he did see her, or seemed to, and smiled, and turned his horse along one of the forks... And she was in another dream. And another. Another. And again.


Not all had any bearing on the future. Dreams of kissing Gawyn, of running in a cool spring meadow with her sisters the way they had as children, slid by along with nightmares where Aes Sedai with switches chased her through endless corridors, where misshapen things lurched through shadows all around, where a grinning Nicola denounced her to the Hall and Thom Merrilin came forward to give evidence. Those she discarded; the others she tucked away, to be prodded and poked later in the hope she might understand what they meant.


She stood before an immense wall, clawing at it, trying to tear it down with her bare hands. It was not made of brick or stone, but countless thousands of discs, each half white and half black, the ancient symbol of the Aes Sedai, like the seven seals that had once held the Dark One's prison shut. Some of those seals were broken now, though not even the One Power could break cuendillar, and the rest had weakened somehow, but the wall stood strong however she beat at it. She could not tear it down. Maybe it was the symbol that was important. Maybe it was the Aes Sedai she was trying to tear down, the White Tower. Maybe...


Mat sat on a night-shrouded hilltop, watching a grand Illuminator's display of fireworks, and suddenly his hand shot up, seized one of those bursting lights in the sky. Arrows of fire flashed from his clenched fist, and a sense of dread filled her. Men would die because of this. The world would change. But the world was changing; it always changed.


Straps at waist and shoulder held her tightly to the block, and the headsman's axe descended, but she knew that somewhere someone was running, and if they ran fast enough, the axe would stop. If not... In that corner of her mind, she felt a chill.


Logain, laughing, stepped across something on the ground and mounted a black stone; when she looked down, she thought it was Randís body he had stepped over, laid out on a funeral bier with his hands crossed at his breast, but when she touched his face, it broke apart like a paper puppet.


A golden hawk stretched out its wing and touched her, and she and the hawk were tied together somehow; all she knew was that the hawk was female. A man lay dying in a narrow bed, and it was important he not die, yet outside a funeral pyre was being built, and voices raised songs of joy and sadness. A dark young man held an object in his hand that shone so brightly she could not see what it was.


On and on they came, and she sorted feverishly, desperately tried to understand. There was no rest in it, but it must be done. She would do what must be done.

ckparrothead
05-24-2010, 11:34 AM
I think the dark young man with the shining object is Jahar Narishma, but I can't guarantee that because the "man lay dying" just above it is probably Rand and she doesn't recognise him there so there's no reason to expect she'd recognise Narishma if she ever met him.

Kind of conflicting evidence there. In LoC he was described as having a "pale face". But in KoD he was described as a "pretty, sun-dark boy".

I guess he's getting a heck of a tan galavanting around in Rand's retinue. The fact that she used the word "young man" does point toward Narishma a little because a few of the times he's been described physically, it's been pointed out that he looks young.

But to go from a guy with a pale face to now being described as "a dark young man"? I dunno...seems a stretch. I don't think RJ has ever been particularly good at describing skin color. But when they say "dark young man" I basically think of someone that's the equivalent of what we would think of as an African, or an Indian.

Bix
05-24-2010, 11:56 AM
Kind of conflicting evidence there. In LoC he was described as having a "pale face". But in KoD he was described as a "pretty, sun-dark boy".

I guess he's getting a heck of a tan galavanting around in Rand's retinue. The fact that she used the word "young man" does point toward Narishma a little because a few of the times he's been described physically, it's been pointed out that he looks young.

But to go from a guy with a pale face to now being described as "a dark young man"? I dunno...seems a stretch. I don't think RJ has ever been particularly good at describing skin color. But when they say "dark young man" I basically think of someone that's the equivalent of what we would think of as an African, or an Indian.

You can go from pale skin to sun darkened skin pretty easily, unless I'm missing something else in the story you're going off of?

ckparrothead
05-24-2010, 12:10 PM
You can go from pale skin to sun darkened skin pretty easily, unless I'm missing something else in the story you're going off of?

What I'm saying is that RJ has never been particularly good, or at least in my estimation, at describing and designating skin color in the WoT series in ways that make it easy to visualize. I mean, sometimes he did it well, and sometimes he didn't. Doing it well would be describing a person's skin color as "ebony" or something, that gives us a visual because in our minds now we can just think to ourselves OK, he/she has like an African skin tone. But I think too often if you use the word "dark", you're losing something there because "dark" for a Caucasian is different from "dark" on an absolute basis, as in an African.

So, the fact that in one description Narishma has a pale face and in another he's described as "sun-dark" is conflicting evidence for him being the man in Egwene's dream. I doubt she would describe a pale faced kid as a "dark young man". I suppose she could have been referring to his clothing being dark but that would just be a "could have" for the sake of being argumentative, it's not a "probably". In all reality she PROBABLY meant his skin color. So, when she says dark young man, what does she mean? A guy with a tan? A black guy?

While you say that it's perfectly understandable to see a guy in a literary cycle go from being "pale face" to "sun-dark", I'm saying it doesn't seem very likely to me that a guy in one literary cycle goes from being described as having a "pale face" to being a "dark young man".

GonzoTheGreat
05-24-2010, 12:16 PM
In the presence of a bright light, things often look darker than they really are. That may have contributed here too, with Callandor blazing forth.

ckparrothead
05-24-2010, 12:36 PM
In the presence of a bright light, things often look darker than they really are. That may have contributed here too, with Callandor blazing forth.

That's a slim possibility, but not likely. I don't think there's room in that description for saying light effects from whatever he's holding. For instance if she was communicating that she couldn't make out his features because of the light effect you're talking about (which would mean that whatever he's holding is behind him, btw), then why would she have described him as a young man?

JSUCamel
05-24-2010, 01:01 PM
That's a slim possibility, but not likely. I don't think there's room in that description for saying light effects from whatever he's holding. For instance if she was communicating that she couldn't make out his features because of the light effect you're talking about (which would mean that whatever he's holding is behind him, btw), then why would she have described him as a young man?

Well, the silhouette of a young man vs an older man is different. Do you remember (are you old enough?) the Frosted Flakes commercials with the people in the shadows (to hide their identities for some reason) describing the taste of Frosted Flakes? It was always pretty obvious what their ages were roughly and what gender and size and such, even though we couldn't see their face.

So i dunno...

ckparrothead
05-24-2010, 01:05 PM
Well, the silhouette of a young man vs an older man is different. Do you remember (are you old enough?) the Frosted Flakes commercials with the people in the shadows (to hide their identities for some reason) describing the taste of Frosted Flakes? It was always pretty obvious what their ages were roughly and what gender and size and such, even though we couldn't see their face.

So i dunno...

But now I think we're just bringing argumentative things to the table and not genuine points.

For him to have been darkened by the light emitting object he was holding, he would have to be holding it above his head and sort of behind him.

And no I don't particularly buy that he could be darkened to obscurity by that and still it be obvious to describe him as a young man.

nameless
05-24-2010, 08:04 PM
It's a dream, not a police line-up. Standard laws of optics need not apply.

Weird Harold
05-25-2010, 12:03 AM
It's a dream, not a police line-up. Standard laws of optics need not apply.

What he said^^^

"Dark" could also be a metaphorical darkness; a "shadow on his soul," sort of thing.

Physical Description
He has large dark eyes and a pale face. He wears his hair in two long braids with silver bells on the ends. (LoC,Ch42) He has large dark eyes. He is a little older than Rand, but looks young. (ACoS,Ch18) He wears his hair in two long braids with bells. (TPoD,Ch14) He is a pretty, sun-dark boy with his hair in belled braids. He wears all black. (KoD,Ch23)


Or it could just be that he wears all black and that was the dominant image in her Dream.

Toss the dice
05-27-2010, 02:22 AM
Well, I agree that Logain will probably lead the Asha'man, and there's a possibility that will extend to the Aes Sedai as well - I still believe that Tar Valon will be destroyed - but glory is typically achieved in battle, which is why my mind goes to Lan. And no, he wouldn't technically be 'restoring' Malkier; just saving Lan and Co. from certain death against the Shadowspawn.

I think your Malkier theory is a complete shot in the dark with zero to back it up, and even if there was anything to connect a line between Logain's "awesome" glory and Malkier/Lan, the books imply that his glory to come will be incredible, surely more than anything Malkier-related would bring about.

I agree with the other people here that believe his glory will be Ashaman/Aes Sedai related. The person who mentioned the Rand/Logain body swap is also thinking along the lines i am, not that i believe THAT will happen as such, but it is one idea that would fit the "glory such as no man will know" sort of deal. While i assume Logain will lead Ashaman at the very least into war at Tarmon Gaidon, if not Aes Sedai as well, his glory doesn't necessarily have to be that alone. Also, his glory may have something to do with Tarmon Gaidon, but not necessarily in battle, such as saving someones life (Rand?), or something along those lines.

Think big, not small. And other than the Tarmon Gaidon options, think PAST the LB as well. Such as Logain becoming the Amyrlin Seat or some other huge important person for centuries after the Light has won. Sort of a Last Battle AND post-LB hero.

One idea of mine that i've thought COULD happen is that Logain in some weird way, becomes the "Dragon." Not literally, but either through his actions or some other means in the LB, basically saves the world. Maybe most people in the world will BELIEVE he saved the world, and some may even think he is the real DR. Maybe the world say 1000 years after the LB actually thinks Logain WAS the true Dragon Reborn. Stuff along these lines would definitely fit Min's vision of a glory to come, a vision that seems to imply strongly that he will or at the very least could achieve the greatest glory period. That means that he could get more glory than Rand. How could that happen? I believe it has to do with Rand "dying," however that comes about. Logain stepping over Rand's grave and laughing? To me, that just screams trickery, duping, etc. One thing certain about that is that Rand isn't simply dead for good, his body is in the ground, and Logain is stepping over it and thinks it's funny that he's dead. Absolutely not, whether the LB is still in progress or afterwards. He's laughing because they just tricked the Shadow, Rand's body isn't even in the grave, a body-swap happened, Logain gets the glory while Rand is settling down on a farm somewhere with his 3 wives while the majority of the world thinks he's dead, SOMETHING like that. At any rate, the grave thing has many possibilities related to what i've said. Use your imagination.

Malkier/Lan? No way in hell. Other than being a completely random theory, it is simply too small to have anything to do with his glory. IMO anything that happens with Malkier is going to be Lan's thing. Obviously.

ckparrothead
05-27-2010, 04:58 PM
What he said^^^

"Dark" could also be a metaphorical darkness; a "shadow on his soul," sort of thing.



Or it could just be that he wears all black and that was the dominant image in her Dream.

I'm gonna stop at the feed store, you want some more straws to grasp at?

Weird Harold
05-28-2010, 12:52 AM
I'm gonna stop at the feed store, you want some more straws to grasp at?
Nah, I'm good. :D

4Alethinos
06-18-2010, 02:49 PM
I do not see why Tar Valon must or will be destroyed. It has experienced some serious wounds, at least the WT has, and the remainder of the battles will be to the North and West.

I must admit that that Borderlander force to the South is rather troublesome. They may play some part, but with their fierce loyalty to the Aes Sedai, I cannot see them as a threat to Tar Valon.

Neilbert
06-18-2010, 03:08 PM
What he said^^^

"Dark" could also be a metaphorical darkness; a "shadow on his soul," sort of thing.

Or it could just be that he wears all black and that was the dominant image in her Dream.

I wonder if the bright object he is holding could be balefire. Rand did teach him balefire, and it could serve as a balance for when Mat gives cannons to the Seanchan.

Charlz Guybon
06-19-2010, 05:56 AM
I've been thinking about Logain's glory, and I'm not really all that sure that his taking control of the Asha'man is the extent of it, even if he leads a successful battle against the Darkfriends at the Black Tower.

If there's anything that will be glory-inspiring during the Last Battle, I have a tendency to think of Lan and the Golden Crane. And that led me to thinking about Lan's disgruntlement with Aes Sedai in New Spring, over the fact that Malkier died because no Aes Sedai came to help, and he only allowed Moiraine to bond him because she gave him Tower secrets: that they could not get there in time, and hid over the fact that they had tried so as to not damage the Tower's reputation of omnipotence.

So, it would be pretty random to assume that Logain would play this role at the Last Battle, just because it would be a nice slice of glory and a nice balance to what the Aes Sedai did not do when Malkier fell. But in TGS, there was Rand's whole cold attitude about Lan that drove Nynaeve crazy. And while Rand healed the cold and hard part of himself at Dragonmount, Egwene's dream indicates that Rand will at the very least appear to be dead when Logain does his thing.

Then, there is the fact that Nynaeve Healed Logain, and Logain wouldn't be doing anything without that. So it would be a nice indirect way of Nynaeve protecting her man in the Blight to go along with her direct recruiting of his army (and of course, there's nothing to prevent Nynaeve from having some sort of direct involvement here - calling in the favor that Logain owes her).

Oh, and Moiraine will probably be back from the dead by then, so she might well have something to do with it too.

I always thought the Aes Sedai would redeem themselves by going to his aid.

If the Aes Sedai are going to get redeemed what better situation could there be for that to happen than aiding the Malkieri?

nameless
06-19-2010, 07:05 PM
Aiding the reconstituted Manetheren? Aes Sedai are the ones who promised help if the orignial Manetheren could hold out 3 days and then failed to show up after 10.

Weird Harold
06-19-2010, 07:56 PM
Aiding the reconstituted Manetheren? Aes Sedai are the ones who promised help if the orignial Manetheren could hold out 3 days and then failed to show up after 10.
They also failed to go to the aid of Malkier -- or at least failed to arrive in time, so they covered up the fact that they had tried at all.

FelixPax
06-20-2010, 08:12 PM
I do not see why Tar Valon must or will be destroyed. It has experienced some serious wounds, at least the WT has, and the remainder of the battles will be to the North and West.

Tar Valon has been invaded successfully before by the Shadow. It's not likely it has the record of the Stone in Tear. Tar Valon has invaded repeated successfully, it's mentioned in the White Tower's 13th Depositary records.

Dragonmount exposing when Rand dies is one reason why Tar Valon maybe be destroyed in the future. Then there is a chance that Tar Valon itself will be invaded by Shadowspawn & Dreadlords though the unlocked Waygate in Tar Valon sitting next to the Ogier Stedding in Tar Valon.

If that is enough danger for Tar Valon falling, there is the chance that the Shadowspawn armies will break through the Shadow's Lance successful and be within range of Tar Valon quickly enough.

That's not even considering the seven or so unlocked and unguard Waygates set across the four Borderlands nations. Any one of whom could have been used extensively by the Shadow for placing Shadowspawn behind the Borderlands nations armed forces.


I must admit that that Borderlander force to the South is rather troublesome. They may play some part, but with their fierce loyalty to the Aes Sedai, I cannot see them as a threat to Tar Valon.

Fierce loyalty?

All four Ruler's ignored Elaida's prior wishes as Amrylin Seat, whether Queen Tenobia, King Paitar Nachiman, Queen Ethenielle, King Easar Togita. Elaida even attempted to captured Queen Tenobia.

Those two of those four Ruler's avoided Aes Sedai successful, until Paitar Nachiman & Tenobia messed up and bought along 13 Aes Sedai in total. :rolleyes: Easar Togita & Ethenielle wanted avoid Aes Sedai at costs.


Yes, they were not a threat to Tar Valon but to Rand al'Thor himself. They were misguided by Ishamael, Mesaana & probably Demandred too into trying to stop Rand from causing chaos & destruction in across the nations. They seemed to have believed the propaganda the Shadow helped create about Rand al'Thor, as Joiya herself confessed to Egwene & Nynaeve in the Stone.

greatwolf
06-21-2010, 06:11 AM
Tar Valon has been invaded successfully before by the Shadow. It's not likely it has the record of the Stone in Tear. Tar Valon has invaded repeated successfully, it's mentioned in the White Tower's 13th Depositary records.


If that is enough danger for Tar Valon falling, there is the chance that the Shadowspawn armies will break through the Shadow's Lance successful and be within range of Tar Valon quickly enough....

...That's not even considering the seven or so unlocked and unguard Waygates set across the four Borderlands nations. Any one of whom could have been used extensively by the Shadow for placing Shadowspawn behind the Borderlands nations armed forces.




Well now that the WT is essentially purged, the shadow has every reason to try to destroy the AS before the LB commences. How do you think they intended to achieve this?

And if the WT falls, where will the FoL regroup? Under Tuon?