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Tercel
05-18-2010, 06:36 PM
In the TGS epilogue, Egwene is looking at various sheets of paper with names on them. The last sheet of paper she looks at has three names which she has narrowed down to be the only possibilities for Mesaana, and none of them fit.

Having read the passage several times, I still don't understand the reasoning that led to the compilation of that last sheet of paper (that has three names). What is the logic that has been used to compile that last list? Can someone please explain it to me in really simple terms?

nameless
05-18-2010, 07:38 PM
Egwene settled on those three names by looking for Sisters who survived the Seanchan attack according to Saerin's survey but vanished in the next 24 hours before the Purge started. Her reasoning is that Mesaana's alter ego would have to someone who escaped both the Seanchan and the Purge, and she assumed that it would be someone who was not on Verin's list, which narrowed the field down to 3 candidates. When she was distracted she was on the brink of the epiphany that Mesaana could be disguised as one of the Sisters who reswore the 3 Oaths if she figured out how to counteract the Oath Rod.

Egwene based her reasoning on 3 assumptions, not all of which hold up.
1) Mesaana's cover identity will be one of the Aes Sedai counted in Saerin's survey after the attack: It is reasonable to assume that Mesaana escaped the Seanchan attack, even though the Shadow's spy network lost a lot of its presence in the Seanchan court now that Suroth and Semirhage are out of the picture, because even caught by surprise it would be simple for Mesaana evade the sul'dam and damane using her Age of Legends weaves. However, that doesn't mean Mesaana's alter ego would show up on Saerin's survey, because if she were looking for a chance to escape the coming Purge the Seanchan attack would be a perfect opportunity to vanish and let everyone assume she was captured.
2) Mesaana will not be one of the Black Sisters that Verin identified: there's no evidence either way on this one, but Egwene seems to take for granted that there is no reason for one of the Forsaken to disguise herself as a member of the Black Ajah. She's probably correct, as it would lead to awkward situations like Mesaana passing an order to the Black leadership then putting her disguise on and being given her own commands by her own flunkies.
3) Mesaana will not be one of the Sisters who re-swore the Oaths: this is the assumption that doesn't hold up to scrutiny. There are several ways she could have circumvented the Oath Rod ranging from simple word games ("I swear I am not a member of the Black Ajah") to tricks with the Power (an invisible glove to prevent her hand from actually touching the Rod while she swore, etc).

Davian93
05-18-2010, 07:44 PM
Egwene is a moron and hopefully her stupidity leads to her "courageous" death in the Last Battle.

Terez
05-18-2010, 07:49 PM
If she's going to die, it will be from Gawyn breaking her neck. ;)

Tercel
05-18-2010, 08:23 PM
Sisters who survived the Seanchan attack according to Saerin's survey but vanished in the next 24 hoursAh, right, thanks for that, that makes sense.

Of course, we have to suspect the Seanchan assassins in the vanishing of AS post the attack. Or, I suppose, those three could have been black, but not uncovered by Verin, and fled the tower with the other blacks prior to the purge?

JSUCamel
05-18-2010, 09:12 PM
Egwene is a moron and hopefully her stupidity leads to her "courageous" death in the Last Battle.

This.

FelixPax
05-19-2010, 12:20 AM
I'll correct that for you, Davian ;)

Mesaana is a moron and hopefully her stupidity leads to her "courageous" death in the Last Battle.


Egwene, Gawyn will wed and live happily ever after, in a new Golden Age. :cool:

GonzoTheGreat
05-19-2010, 04:30 AM
If she's going to die, it will be from Gawyn breaking her neck. ;)I like that idea a lot more than that of Gawyn killing Rand.
Egwene could then be succeeded by Alanna. Then, when Rand faces the Amyrlin's anger, that's nothing new for him: Alanna has been angry at him plenty of times before.

Yellowbeard
05-19-2010, 01:21 PM
it could be quite easy for mesaana to avoid the AS purge and the seanchan. she can mask her ability to channel. and she can channel inverted webs.

they'll never feel her presence, or her channeling.

i wouldn't be surprised if she's masquerading as a non-channeling beaurucrat. she was mainly an administrator in the age of legends, that's how she'll hide now.

nameless
05-19-2010, 05:47 PM
The possibility has been discussed, but Graendal believed she was hiding out as an Aes Sedai so that's where most people have been focusing. IIRC Danelle is the current favorite suspect based on the way she orchestrated the Tower split and then vanished into the background. Silviana and Laras have also been accused from time to time, though I don't think the cases against either of them are quite as convincing.

Tercel
05-19-2010, 06:50 PM
So, general question to the floor:
If you were in Egwene's position, how would you go about trying to find Mesaana?

Spasmodean
05-19-2010, 07:30 PM
Invent rap music and release a song titled "Would the real Mesaana please stand up" of course.

Intuitively obvious.

JSUCamel
05-19-2010, 07:54 PM
Invent rap music and release a song titled "Would the real Mesaana please stand up" of course.

Intuitively obvious.

Grant asylum for any Forsaken. Hey, it worked for Demandred! :p

All seriousness aside, this is a very good question, Tercel. Speaking off the top of my head at the moment, I would argue that Egwene has already made the best test she can make, and she can't very well go and demand that every sister re-swear the Oaths in various ways. Right now, I can't think of anything else.

Terez
05-19-2010, 07:57 PM
it could be quite easy for mesaana to avoid the AS purge and the seanchan. she can mask her ability to channel. and she can channel inverted webs.

they'll never feel her presence, or her channeling.

i wouldn't be surprised if she's masquerading as a non-channeling beaurucrat. she was mainly an administrator in the age of legends, that's how she'll hide now.
Brandon also seemed to confirm that she is hiding as a channeler, at least (and Aes Sedai seems most likely).

Also, it seems almost certain that Mesaana will get her hands on Egwene before Egwene figures out who she is.

Sei'taer
05-19-2010, 11:15 PM
Here's what we know:

She had blue eyes. She's short of her middle years. She was wearing a bronze/brown dress one time and a bronze and green (I think) the second time.

Alviarin thought she looked familiar, but couldn't place her. I think I know why. Think about the reaction Siuan and Leane got when they lost the aged look. When Shaidar showed up and blocked her and Alviarin from the source, Mesaana, who had been walking around with an ageless face, suddenly lost that when she lost the source. Alviarin saw her without the agelessness...that's why she was familiar, but she couldn't place her. That right there tells me that she is almost certainly posing as an Aes Sedai.

My guess would have been Tarna, except that the dress doesn't match Tarna's style. So that leaves me with...frickin no one.

This is one of the things I've been banging around since J-con. This is as far as I can get with it. I really don't have much to back it up with either. I do think RJ would put her right in our face though.

Terez
05-20-2010, 12:15 AM
Alviarin thought she looked familiar, but couldn't place her. I think I know why. Think about the reaction Siuan and Leane got when they lost the aged look. When Shaidar showed up and blocked her and Alviarin from the source, Mesaana, who had been walking around with an ageless face, suddenly lost that when she lost the source. Alviarin saw her without the agelessness...that's why she was familiar, but she couldn't place her. That right there tells me that she is almost certainly posing as an Aes Sedai.
She probably vaguely resembles the Aes Sedai she is posing as. It's a weakness of Illusion, that all it takes is a touch to be able to tell that it's being used (even if the weaves are inverted). Moghedien's use of it was subtle, for that reason. You can use overt Illusion in instances - like Moiraine stepping over the wall of Baerlon, or Sammael making himself tall when he spoke to the Shaido Wise Ones - if you're fairly sure you're not going to be touched by anyone, but if you're going to pose as someone else for a long time, in a place with a lot of people, it's best to use subtle Illusion.

So, Mesaana probably looks a great deal like whoever she is posing as, but not exactly like them, and of course she doesn't have the ageless face. She can't have simply given herself an ageless face and pretended to be an Aes Sedai that doesn't exist. She'd have had to Compel the entire Tower.

My guess would have been Tarna, except that the dress doesn't match Tarna's style. So that leaves me with...frickin no one.
Dresses can change from day to day, but more importantly, we've had a Tarna POV (Knife of Dreams, 'Attending Elaida').

The most popular suspect is Danelle.

Tercel
05-20-2010, 04:26 AM
Speaking off the top of my head at the moment, I would argue that Egwene has already made the best test she can make, and she can't very well go and demand that every sister re-swear the Oaths in various ways. Right now, I can't think of anything else.My thought is that it depends how Mesaana got around the Oath rod.

If she got around it by saying "I am not Black Ajah", but actually did swear the Oaths, then if Egwene was to get people to ask every sister "are you one of the forsaken?" they'd find Mesaana in short order.

If, on the other hand, Mesaana is not bound by the Oaths (due to say, not quite touching the oath rod while swearing, or not quite touching the flows of spirit to it) it could be tricky. Egwene does know how to check if someone is Oath-bound - eg the rapid-fire questions trick that she used on Sheriam. Egwene could use the little information Verin managed to collect about Mesaana (which I assume are similar in nature to what we saw in the Alviarin PoV eg dress colour) and having narrowed it down try to check who is and isn't bound by the Oaths.

Alternatively...
One of Cadsuane's ter'angreal can disrupt Illusion and detect its use. Egwene can reason out that Mesaana must be using Illusion. So potentially Egwene could summon Cadsuane to unmask Mesaana, use another known ter'angreal already in the Tower to do it, or work out what the right weaves must be herself. So maybe the thing to do is just slice every AS with a nice sharp weave of Spirit to cut any Illusion that happens to be on them, and the one that has the Illusion is Mesaana.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 05:02 AM
How did Moiraine discover that Lord Brend was Sammael?
Perhaps Egwene could use that same method to discover Mesaana's identity.

nameless
05-20-2010, 06:14 AM
"Lord Brend" was broadcasting his dreams to the whole city, which tipped Moiraine off because she'd just spent the winter watching Rand do the exact same thing. Aes Sedai ward their dreams so it'd be hard to tell if anyone were doing that in the Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 06:19 AM
But Moiraine found out about that not because she herself got caught up in those dreams, but because she heard about it from lots of other people. (Assuming that's the method she did use, which I'm not sure is correct.) Egwene could, in theory, talk to servants, Novices and Accepted about their dreams. Then, if Mesaana is indeed doing the same thing, that might provide some further clues.

Of course, this depends on Egwene taking the opinion and knowledge of anyone not AS seriously, which is a bit of a problem. Still, some of them will be women, which should help at least a bit.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 06:47 AM
Dresses can change from day to day, but more importantly, we've had a Tarna POV (Knife of Dreams, 'Attending Elaida').

The most popular suspect is Danelle.

I don't think it's Danelle. If Danelle is Mesaana, why take such a direct stance at the overthrow party when Siuan was deposed? Mesaana is more of a sideline player. She wouldn't have been right in the middle of it. Also, a lot of the sisters know her very well. Kind of hard to pretend to be someone that everyone knows. Same problems with Tarna though. She wouldn't jump in as keeper for the same reasons.

I think she's Aes Sedai, and probably a well known character.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 06:49 AM
Maybe she's posing as Sheriam?

JSUCamel
05-20-2010, 07:02 AM
Maybe she's posing as Sheriam?

In that case, she's dead, right? That would be a lame way for Mesaana to go, without even being revealed.

I was talking with Taer about this topic last night, so I re-read a bunch of Mesaana scenes, and for some reason, I got the distinct impression she was posing as a White, even though the dress was described as a brown dress. I'll pull some quotes later (about to go to the doctor), but I think maybe the whole brown dress thing is a red herring to throw us off. After all, it's mentioned several times that Aes Sedai often wear dresses that aren't the same color as their Ajah (wouldn't you get tired of wearing a blue dress every day?).

Davian93
05-20-2010, 07:05 AM
How did Moiraine discover that Lord Brend was Sammael?
Perhaps Egwene could use that same method to discover Mesaana's identity.

Exactly, she can use "plot neccessity" to figure it out.

WinespringBrother
05-20-2010, 07:48 AM
Exactly, she can use "plot neccessity" to figure it out.

Like how the Aiel don't all die of thirst in a rainless wasteland? :) Though using need in tel'aran'rhiod could literally land Egwene in the hornet's nest if she used it to find Mesaana

An easier way might be to find anyone who is running interference for the shadow, so to speak, or stands out in some unusual way ... for example, some of Alviarin's activities did make her stand out, such as her noted influence on Elaida.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 08:13 AM
Like how the Aiel don't all die of thirst in a rainless wasteland? :) Though using need in tel'aran'rhiod could literally land Egwene in the hornet's nest if she used it to find Mesaana

An easier way might be to find anyone who is running interference for the shadow, so to speak, or stands out in some unusual way ... for example, some of Alviarin's activities did make her stand out, such as her noted influence on Elaida.

I don't think Mesaana is going to be that sloppy. Besides, most of the Aes Sedai are weird as hell because they all try to keep secrets. It'll have to be something else. Line everybody up and cut them off from the source one at a time lol.

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 08:20 AM
I was talking with Taer about this topic last night, so I re-read a bunch of Mesaana scenes, and for some reason, I got the distinct impression she was posing as a White, even though the dress was described as a brown dress.So Mesaana is a blue-eyed white red herring because she wears a brown dress. Intuitively obvious to the most casual reader, that.

WinespringBrother
05-20-2010, 08:29 AM
I don't think Mesaana is going to be that sloppy. Besides, most of the Aes Sedai are weird as hell because they all try to keep secrets. It'll have to be something else. Line everybody up and cut them off from the source one at a time lol.

Egwene may have an advantage though, in that Mesaana may feel that the search for darkfriends has ended. Egwene still suspects Mesaana hasn't fled (TGS Epilogue) and may initiate her own hunt, knowing the Oath Rod won't be of use. She may have to gamble and come up with some bait that a Forsaken would fall for.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 08:30 AM
So Mesaana is a blue-eyed white red herring because she wears a brown dress. Intuitively obvious to the most casual reader, that.

So was Asmodeans killer. Nobody's got that one either.

Weird Harold
05-20-2010, 09:26 AM
...Also, a lot of the sisters know her very well. Kind of hard to pretend to be someone that everyone knows.

Actually Danelle is a loner with few, if any, friends. It is precisely because everyone knows who she is, but very few actually KNOW her, that makes her the prime suspect.

Neilbert
05-20-2010, 10:38 AM
So was Asmodeans killer. Nobody's got that one either.

Are you sure?

GonzoTheGreat
05-20-2010, 10:41 AM
Did anyone figure out before this that Asmodean had been beaten to death with a herring?

Neilbert
05-20-2010, 10:44 AM
... yes?

RJ beat him to death with a herring because he had served his purpose to the plot and was now just dead wood.

JSUCamel
05-20-2010, 12:15 PM
So Mesaana is a blue-eyed white red herring because she wears a brown dress. Intuitively obvious to the most casual reader, that.

Not because she wears a brown dress, in spite of her wearing a brown dress. Siuan doesn't wear a blue dress every day. Just because an Aes Sedai is a member of a certain Ajah doesn't mean that Ajah's color is their favorite color, or that it flatters them or makes them look good or whatever.

My reasons had more to do with her personality and the way she behaved and reacted in the meetings with Demandred, the thoughts that she has. We've been focusing on her physical description, but I wonder if there are psychological clues that can tell us who she might likely be.

Terez
05-20-2010, 02:43 PM
...for some reason, I got the distinct impression she was posing as a White, even though the dress was described as a brown dress.
Perhaps because she was wearing a white dress in the prologue of TGS? That dress also led many to believe she was posing as a novice.

JSUCamel
05-20-2010, 02:45 PM
Perhaps because she was wearing a white dress in the prologue of TGS? That dress also led many to believe she was posing as a novice.

Didn't remember that. Hmm. I was thinking more of psychological reasons from earlier scenes. But it helps my theory, so thanks. I have a feeling we know who she is and we may have spent a decent amount of time with Mesaana on screen in disguise.

Terez
05-20-2010, 02:53 PM
I don't really care much about Mesaana's alter ego, and I am not entirely convinced it's Danelle, but I know we haven't spent a great deal of time with her alter ego, because there's no way that Brandon would have been confused about whether or not she was seen on screen if she'd been seen more than Danelle (for example). His confusion rules out Silviana, for example.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 03:48 PM
And that's the problem with Tarna also. The only reason I would lean toward her is because in CoT she was actually a fairly decent human being. When she talks to Pevara she seems to have her head on straight, and she is actually decent to Gawyn and if I remember right, she is the one who says that the red should bond Ashaman.

When she comes back onscreen though, she has turned into a total shit. Not saying that this makes her any more reasonable a choice, and it could be that she had a raging case of Aes Sedai PMS, but something happened when she was on her way back to the tower from Salidar.

The other problem with Tarna is that surely Alviarin would have recognized her, since she basically ousted Alviarin from the keepers position. Also, why not just travell from Salidar to Tar Valon.

Despite all that, Tarna just feels like a better fit than Danelle.

Right now, Danelle has kind of faded off screen. She has a lot of problems fitting the description too for reasons stated earlier. My main problem with it is that Aviarin already fingered her as possibly being Mesaana. It's just too convoluted to be able to pick up on right now.

Bix
05-20-2010, 04:52 PM
And that's the problem with Tarna also. The only reason I would lean toward her is because in CoT she was actually a fairly decent human being. When she talks to Pevara she seems to have her head on straight, and she is actually decent to Gawyn and if I remember right, she is the one who says that the red should bond Ashaman.

When she comes back onscreen though, she has turned into a total shit. Not saying that this makes her any more reasonable a choice, and it could be that she had a raging case of Aes Sedai PMS, but something happened when she was on her way back to the tower from Salidar.

The other problem with Tarna is that surely Alviarin would have recognized her, since she basically ousted Alviarin from the keepers position. Also, why not just travell from Salidar to Tar Valon.

Despite all that, Tarna just feels like a better fit than Danelle.

Right now, Danelle has kind of faded off screen. She has a lot of problems fitting the description too for reasons stated earlier. My main problem with it is that Aviarin already fingered her as possibly being Mesaana. It's just too convoluted to be able to pick up on right now.

You say all this against Tarna, but then say but it's still Tarna and not Danelle, even though your reasoning against Danelle make no sense to me.

How is Danelle fading off screen against her being Mesaana?

Her description is exactly like Mesaana, big blue eyes, dreamy, etc so what problems in description?

How is it too convoluted? Just what we've seen of Tarna would make her much more convoluted to be Mesaana.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 05:07 PM
You say all this against Tarna, but then say but it's still Tarna and not Danelle, even though your reasoning against Danelle make no sense to me.

Neither makes any sense. tarna happens to make more sense to me than Danelle. Somebody said earlier that Danelle was the main suspect. I don't think she is Mesaana and explained why.

How is Danelle fading off screen against her being Mesaana?. Not against her being Mesaana, her in general. Her character is fading away from the storyline. Doesn't mean she won't be back, just means she's not in the middle of the story line anymore.

Her description is exactly like Mesaana, big blue eyes, dreamy, etc so what problems in description?.

She and Tarna are twins then? Or she and Mesaana and Tarna are triplets? I don't remember disputing the descriptions matched. All of them have blue eyes...they also all tap their lips. Big deal. So do 75 other Aes Sedai.

How is it too convoluted? Just what we've seen of Tarna would make her much more convoluted to be Mesaana.

Danelle or Tarna either one are crummy candidates. Both histories are convoluted to the point that it's hard to know and we can only guess based on the information we have and our opinion of that information. It just seems more RJish to me for it to be either Tarna or someone else that we haven't even considered. If Mesaana can beat the oath rod, then she could be pretty much anyone. I don't have any doubt she could beat the rod.


ETA: Welcome to TL. I just saw this was your first post. Head on over to the newbie forum and introduce yourself to the group! Enjoy our little fun place too.

nameless
05-20-2010, 06:42 PM
But Moiraine found out about that not because she herself got caught up in those dreams, but because she heard about it from lots of other people. (Assuming that's the method she did use, which I'm not sure is correct.) Egwene could, in theory, talk to servants, Novices and Accepted about their dreams. Then, if Mesaana is indeed doing the same thing, that might provide some further clues.

Of course, this depends on Egwene taking the opinion and knowledge of anyone not AS seriously, which is a bit of a problem. Still, some of them will be women, which should help at least a bit.

Well the only non-Aes Sedai anyone in the Tower takes seriously is Laras, so there will probably be a number of false starts based on her many recurring nightmares before Cadsuane wanders back and solves the whole thing in 5 minutes with her paralis-net.

Tercel
05-20-2010, 07:39 PM
Well the only non-Aes Sedai anyone in the Tower takes seriously is Laras, so there will probably be a number of false starts based on her many recurring nightmares before Cadsuane wanders back and solves the whole thing in 5 minutes with her paralis-net.It's my hope that finally Cadsuane might be good for something, other than just being really annoying.


Oh, and Mesaana is Dannelle, I consider that basically proven. I don't think Tarna is at all a possibility, she's too much of a well-known character to impersonate. And would Mesaana seriously want to be Keeper of the Chronicles with all the tedious admin work that entails??

Kimon
05-20-2010, 07:44 PM
Sei'taer, Tarna's POV in KoD (Ch. 22- Attending Elaida) does't necessarily indicate that she is walking in the light, but it seems indicative enough throughout the chapter to ensure that she really is Tarna and not someone else. Take for example this paragraph:

Tarna kept her face smooth with an effort. Pillow-friends were common among novices and Accepted, but girlhood things should be left behind with girlhood. Not all sisters saw it so, certainly. Galina had been quite surprised when Tarna refused her advances after gaining the shawl. She herself found men far more attractive than women. Most seemed heavily intimidated by Aes Sedai, to be sure, especially if they learned you were Red Ajah, but over the years she had come across a few who were not.

Aside from RJ's strange liking for jumping in and out of Julius Caesar mode of characters referring to themselves by name (Tarna) and then with the normal (she), this seems pretty clear cut as in-character internal dialogue, which would be very odd if Tarna was Mesaana. Indeed for this very reason, one can probably eliminate as candidates for Mesaana any characters who have had POVs. That of course leaves Danelle, Laras, Evanellein, and Silviana. And others, but those four seem the most logical possibilities, at least to me...

Terez
05-20-2010, 08:26 PM
Laras and Silviana have both been ruled out by Brandon. Evanellein, I consider to be ruled out because she was calling for Elaida to be pulled down in KOD. That seems the sort of thing that Alviarin might encourage (which is why we suspected her of being Black), but it doesn't seem the sort of thing that Mesaana would encourage. It was to her advantage to keep Elaida as Amyrlin because she was helping to rip the Tower apart. Almost anyone would have done a better job, which Mesaana wouldn't have wanted.

Weird Harold
05-20-2010, 08:35 PM
A question that occurs to me is, "When and How did Mesaana choose her secret identity?"

Did she kidnap and interrogate some random AS wandering around Randland as Semirhage did to build an alibi for Halima?

Did she enroll as a novice or come as a petitioner to evaluate the interactions of the Tower first-hand for some period before choosing an AS to replace? (Else wasn't the only novice dismissed from the Tower during the course of this story.)

Did she rely on the BA's assessments of non-black sisters at all? (If she did, why doesn't Alviarin have a better idea of who she's impersonating?)

Sei'taer mentioned that Dannelle has faded away from the forefront of Tower Politics after a brief -- and apparently un-characteristic -- foray into conspiracy and treason.

Perhaps the foray into conspiracy and treason is indicative of when Mesaana took the real Dannelle's place? Perhaps the retreat from the forefront of Tower politics is the result of Mesaana getting a better sense of what others expect of Danelle?

FWIW, I'm not sold on Danelle as being "proven" to be Mesaana, but I do think she's the best of the usual suspects in this perrenial discussion.

Sei'taer
05-20-2010, 09:56 PM
You have the same problem with Tarna. She goes off screen when she leaves Salidar, acting fairly decently and then comes back onscreen as a royal beeotch.

The more I look at it and the more I read, the more I think it's not either one of them.

What if Mesaana got taken by the Seanchan? That'd be pretty damn funny...they could call her Messi and give her sweets.

Weird Harold
05-20-2010, 11:03 PM
You have the same problem with Tarna. She goes off screen when she leaves Salidar, acting fairly decently and then comes back onscreen as a royal beeotch.

Therin lies another main point against Tarna; as far as we know, Tarna was still on the way back from Salidar when Mesaana was already established and active in the Tower.

That's part of the reason for asking when and how Mesaana assumed her disguise's identity.

The more I look at it and the more I read, the more I think it's not either one of them.

I'm convinced it can't possibly be Tarna and nobody has presented a better candidate than Danelle -- despite Danelle's minor evidentiary handicaps.

Terez
05-21-2010, 12:43 AM
You have the same problem with Tarna. She goes off screen when she leaves Salidar, acting fairly decently and then comes back onscreen as a royal beeotch.
You've got that backwards. She was a bitch in Salidar; she met a group of Asha'man recruiters on the way back and that settled her down. She's been reasonable ever since.

What if Mesaana got taken by the Seanchan? That'd be pretty damn funny...they could call her Messi and give her sweets.
Egwene's dreams seem to make it unlikely.

Yellowbeard
05-21-2010, 09:12 AM
Has anyone considered Mesaana might have multiple disguises?

Like one day she might be pretend to be person A (after having compulsed said person to stay in bed sick all day or something)? the next she might be someone else? The next day she could mask her channeling and prance around in servant disguise? Or she was an administrator in the AoL...perhaps she could also work in disguising herself as an accountant or something?

I've always had a problem w/ her hiding as a single AS as well, unless she has an ability to mask her channeling ability so that she appears weaker than she really is. Otherwise, everyone would notice her due to her strength above the rest of them.

WinespringBrother
05-21-2010, 09:35 AM
Has anyone considered Mesaana might have multiple disguises?

Like one day she might be pretend to be person A (after having compulsed said person to stay in bed sick all day or something)? the next she might be someone else? The next day she could mask her channeling and prance around in servant disguise? Or she was an administrator in the AoL...perhaps she could also work in disguising herself as an accountant or something?

I've always had a problem w/ her hiding as a single AS as well, unless she has an ability to mask her channeling ability so that she appears weaker than she really is. Otherwise, everyone would notice her due to her strength above the rest of them.

That's probably an overcomplicated scenario that could fall apart in any # of ways, for example if the Aes Sedai being masqueraded as was seen in 2 places in a short amount of time.

EgweneIsAwesome
05-21-2010, 11:31 AM
I'm not so certain that Maseena is an Aes Sedai. The only times I recall her channeling were in front of members of the Black Ajah. Couldn't she be a character that we haven't been introduced to yet? If she was posing as a non-channeler and hiding her ability to channel then it would explain why she didn't have to swear on the Oath Rod. I don't think that she is posing as an Aes Sedai though.

Marie Curie 7
05-21-2010, 12:33 PM
I've always had a problem w/ her hiding as a single AS as well, unless she has an ability to mask her channeling ability so that she appears weaker than she really is. Otherwise, everyone would notice her due to her strength above the rest of them.

It is possible to for a channeler to mask his or her strength, and I would expect that the Forsaken likely know how to do this:

The Path of Daggers book tour 20 November 1998, Washington DC - John Nowacki reporting

RJ said that a channeler can hide strength as well as ability to channel, but added that 1) few people know how to do it, and 2) the Aes Sedai don't even know these tricks are possible.

I'm not so certain that Maseena is an Aes Sedai. The only times I recall her channeling were in front of members of the Black Ajah. Couldn't she be a character that we haven't been introduced to yet? If she was posing as a non-channeler and hiding her ability to channel then it would explain why she didn't have to swear on the Oath Rod. I don't think that she is posing as an Aes Sedai though.

RJ made it clear that Mesaana has been seen on screen (prior to TGS):

Bailey's Crossroads VA 2003 - Robert Mee Reporting

Q: Have we actually seen Mesaana's alter ego in the White Tower?
RJ: Yes.

And he also said that if we hadn't figured out before CoT, we should be able to by CoT (though this is RJ, so take what he believes about it being obvious with a grain of salt):

Crossroads of Twilight Book Tour 18 January 2003 - Cambridge, MA

Q: Who is Mesaana?
RJ: Who is Mesaana? Think! You have enough evidence to know that by now, I would suspect, and you certainly will have enough after reading Crossroads of Twilight.

Enigma
05-21-2010, 04:54 PM
A question that occurs to me is, "When and How did Mesaana choose her secret identity?"

Did she kidnap and interrogate some random AS wandering around Randland as Semirhage did to build an alibi for Halima?.

Did she enroll as a novice or come as a petitioner to evaluate the interactions of the Tower first-hand for some period before choosing an AS to replace? (Else wasn't the only novice dismissed from the Tower during the course of this story.).

It would make sense that she would spend some time doing some ground work investigating how things worked in the White Tower before taking on any role. With masks of mirrors she could be appear as a clerk or a servant while she made her plans.

I can't see her enroling as a novice simply because they are watched and controled far too closely. Even with inverted compuslion it would be a lot of work on her part to be free to do what she needs/wants to do. Nor could she get suddenly promoted to accepted that would draw far too much attention. Most novices spend years before they are raised.

I could see her picking her target and then abducting her to drain her dry of what she knows. As far as targets goes she needs an Aes Sedai who has either been out in the world a long time so that people have almost forgotton her or someone new with few friends and no real contacts.

Picking someone with influence would make her job a lot easier but it would also be much more risky as far as exposure goes. Even if her new identity has no real power when one is involved in as dangerous a thing as plotting to overthrow the Amrylin I doubt if you can affort to turn away the services of even a "nobody Aes Sedai", recruits being somewhat thin on the ground.

Did she rely on the BA's assessments of non-black sisters at all? (If she did, why doesn't Alviarin have a better idea of who she's impersonating?)

That would be very very dangerous from a forsaken point of view. Its one thing to take over the role of a noble say in Tear or Andor but being in the White Tower is just as dangerous as being among the Seanchan. If you are found out channeling may not save you. Back stabbing is a way of life among the shadow. If I was going into such a high risk position as pretending to be an Aes Sedai I would not want to leave any trail that my darkfriend "allies" might be able to track.

Sei'taer mentioned that Dannelle has faded away from the forefront of Tower Politics after a brief -- and apparently un-characteristic -- foray into conspiracy and treason.

Perhaps the foray into conspiracy and treason is indicative of when Mesaana took the real Dannelle's place? Perhaps the retreat from the forefront of Tower politics is the result of Mesaana getting a better sense of what others expect of Danelle?

FWIW, I'm not sold on Danelle as being "proven" to be Mesaana, but I do think she's the best of the usual suspects in this perrenial discussion.

I agree that Danelle is the best candidate even if the jury is still out. I don't think that her sudden withdrawal was due to her learning more about what the real Danelle was like. I would put it down to more having to step forward to a degree in order to get Siuan overthrown. Manipulating things from the shadow through compulsion could be very hard. Too much compulsion and you get obedience but the victim is almost labotamised which would be spotted straight away in the Tower. Nor can she simply rely on giving orders to the BA as there were none darkfriends invovled. If Danelle was Mesana she may simply have had no other choise but to get her hands dirty to get the job done and as soon as she had her tool Alviarin installed as Keeper she could then take a back seat again and fade away into obscurity.

WinespringBrother
05-21-2010, 07:25 PM
It would make sense that she would spend some time doing some ground work investigating how things worked in the White Tower before taking on any role. With masks of mirrors she could be appear as a clerk or a servant while she made her plans.

I can't see her enroling as a novice simply because they are watched and controled far too closely. Even with inverted compuslion it would be a lot of work on her part to be free to do what she needs/wants to do. Nor could she get suddenly promoted to accepted that would draw far too much attention. Most novices spend years before they are raised.

I could see her picking her target and then abducting her to drain her dry of what she knows. As far as targets goes she needs an Aes Sedai who has either been out in the world a long time so that people have almost forgotton her or someone new with few friends and no real contacts.

Picking someone with influence would make her job a lot easier but it would also be much more risky as far as exposure goes. Even if her new identity has no real power when one is involved in as dangerous a thing as plotting to overthrow the Amrylin I doubt if you can affort to turn away the services of even a "nobody Aes Sedai", recruits being somewhat thin on the ground.



That would be very very dangerous from a forsaken point of view. Its one thing to take over the role of a noble say in Tear or Andor but being in the White Tower is just as dangerous as being among the Seanchan. If you are found out channeling may not save you. Back stabbing is a way of life among the shadow. If I was going into such a high risk position as pretending to be an Aes Sedai I would not want to leave any trail that my darkfriend "allies" might be able to track.



I agree that Danelle is the best candidate even if the jury is still out. I don't think that her sudden withdrawal was due to her learning more about what the real Danelle was like. I would put it down to more having to step forward to a degree in order to get Siuan overthrown. Manipulating things from the shadow through compulsion could be very hard. Too much compulsion and you get obedience but the victim is almost labotamised which would be spotted straight away in the Tower. Nor can she simply rely on giving orders to the BA as there were none darkfriends invovled. If Danelle was Mesana she may simply have had no other choise but to get her hands dirty to get the job done and as soon as she had her tool Alviarin installed as Keeper she could then take a back seat again and fade away into obscurity.

You raise some good points about the infiltration aspect, so why not look at other channeling institutions that were infiltrated by Forsaken? Halima got a lot of info via Cabriana (3rd hand of course) and Dashiva presumably strolled in off the street. It's not a big stretch to presume out of the many Aes Sedai not accounted for, that one more could not have been tortured for information, and killed and either replaced or just used as a knowledge base on how to behave in the Tower.

JSUCamel
05-21-2010, 07:50 PM
You raise some good points about the infiltration aspect, so why not look at other channeling institutions that were infiltrated by Forsaken? Halima got a lot of info via Cabriana (3rd hand of course) and Dashiva presumably strolled in off the street. It's not a big stretch to presume out of the many Aes Sedai not accounted for, that one more could not have been tortured for information, and killed and either replaced or just used as a knowledge base on how to behave in the Tower.

I think it is a stretch, because Semirhage and Halima already did it that way, and I find it hard to believe that RJ would write three Forsaken going about disguises in the same fashion. I think it's far more likely that she used research and discovered a bit about who would fit in the best, and then assumed a "nobody Aes Sedai that nobody remembers" persona and just strolled in off the street. Like whoever it was just said, the Aes Sedai can't really afford to turn away anyone with a modicum of talent in the Power. And seeing as how most people thought Cadsuane was dead and many other Aes Sedai are unaccounted for or unheard of for years, if not decades, I don't think it's a huge stretch to have someone show up as Jane Doe Aes Sedai and be all like "What do you mean you don't remember me?!?" and instantly be accepted.

It's not as if the Aes Sedai are particularly inquisitive toward each other, especially while Elaida was in charge.

nameless
05-21-2010, 09:02 PM
Taim's orders to watch out for students learning too fast should have made it impossible for Dashiva to infiltrate as easily as he did... a peasant boy who spoke fluent Old Tongue and knew enough about manipulating emotions with the Power to come up with a weave that makes you feel like someone is sneaking up behind you would have raised all sorts of red flags if Taim had actually been concerned with keeping out enemy agents.

Terez
05-21-2010, 11:05 PM
I don't think it's a huge stretch to have someone show up as Jane Doe Aes Sedai and be all like "What do you mean you don't remember me?!?" and instantly be accepted.
Are you saying she is posing as an Aes Sedai that didn't actually exist? Because I think they are a little more organized than that. They have to know how long each Aes Sedai spent as novice and Accepted to know who defers to whom, for example, and the Ajah system prevents the Jane Doe Sedai situation. Like I said before, she'd have had to Compel the whole Tower to get away with that. Much more likely she adopted an alter ego a la Mad Eye Moody, except she probably doesn't keep her Aes Sedai in a trunk...she probably squeezed out enough info to manage and then killed her. And yeah, it is better for her to pick someone who is relatively unknown, but I don't think there is such a thing as a completely unknown Aes Sedai.

Weird Harold
05-22-2010, 04:28 AM
I think it is a stretch, because Semirhage and Halima already did it that way, and I find it hard to believe that RJ would write three Forsaken going about disguises in the same fashion.

Actually, Semirhage interrogated Cabriana Mecandes on Shadar Haran's orders to establish an alibi for Halima. The intent was never to replace Cabriana but to learn things only Cabriana could know to establish Halima as Cabriana's former secretary.

Osan'gar/Dashiva never had to deal with people who knew his alias before he arrived at the BT so he didn't need to replace anyone; he was just one recruit out of several hundred recruits --who just happened to have a very highly placed accomplice with several highly placed minions to cover for any suspicion that might fall upon him.

Mesaana is the only one who has apparently replaced someone with an established history she has to be concerned about. All of the evidence points to her posing ans an Aes Sedai and the WT Pecking Order means she has to be posing as an existing Aes Sedai with an established place at the lower middle levels of that pecking order.

It is possible that we may have seen Mesaana's secret identity before Mesanna replaced her, but I, personally, don't think we have; I think whatever her identity is, she's been Mesaana from her very first on-screen appearance, (saving a possible appearance in New Spring.)



Was Mesaana established in the Tower when Lanfear impersonated Else Grinwell? What blue-eyed supects first appeared after that incident?

Enigma
05-22-2010, 07:06 AM
I could be wrong here but if one has to replace an existing Aes Sedai going in as a Brown would probably be easier that any other Ajah.

A lot of the browns seemd to spend a lot of their time tucked away in the library or hunting down obscure books. Compare this to say the Greens who seem to be organised in a military way which suggests that even when on solo runs the Ajah Head and leaders know where the sister is. The Reds seeme to cling together because, well no one else really likes them and after the coup they were distructed by a lot of the other sisters.

The Greens are almost like a military orginisation. Granted the Blues are solo operators but their Ajah is small and seems tighlty knit not to mention one could not be a blue in the Tower after the coup. The Whites are also very small as Ajah's go so there is more chance that the sisters know each other. There could be the yellows but do we know if Mesaana has any tallent for healing at all?

padfoot89
05-22-2010, 03:16 PM
a peasant boy who spoke fluent Old Tongue and knew enough about manipulating emotions with the Power to come up with a weave that makes you feel like someone is sneaking up behind you would have raised all sorts of red flags if Taim had actually been concerned with keeping out enemy agents.

Where did this happen ? I'm talking about the manipulating emotions bit.

Neilbert
05-22-2010, 04:48 PM
When Rand was being announced to Cadsuane for the first time IIRC Dashiva made some sort of weave that filled the air with menace or something like that. Probably something similar to the Seanchan throne.

GonzoTheGreat
05-23-2010, 04:28 AM
... a peasant boy who spoke fluent Old Tongue and knew enough about manipulating emotions with the Power to come up with a weave that makes you feel like someone is sneaking up behind you would have raised all sorts of red flags if Taim had actually been concerned with keeping out enemy agents.Apart from the weave thing, that describes Mat quite well. He's a peasant boy, he speaks the Old Tongue fluently (though now and then with some odd accents, a trait he shares with Padan Fain), he's good at manipulating emotions (not always intentionally, see "Pink Ribbons"), and if you don't expect him to sneak up on you from behind (with a badger he intends to stuff into your clothing, possibly), then you're an idiot.

Spasmodean
05-23-2010, 01:57 PM
Don't forget the frogs.

Enigma
05-24-2010, 09:15 AM
Books do seem to be more available to the lower classes that they would have been in the real world during the 18th century. The peddlers do a good trade with the Aiel when it comes to books and I think its not unreasonable to assume that they are not the only ones buying them. Mat Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve, Min etc all are literate after all.

Given the availability of books one could give Dashiva a pass on having the odd bit of knowledge about the wider world.

As far as strange weaves well a lot of the Asha'man are experementing and finding new weaves or weaves that the Aes Sedai alreay have. Flynn came up with several new ways to heal that was very close to what Nynaeve was doing not to mention a way to heal severing. There was another Asha'man who figured out how to bond a woman, someone was able to adapt it to force obedience on the captured Aes Sedai.

When you all it all up I don't think that Dashiva should immediatly have been spotted as a forsaken due to being a bit worldly and being able to come up with a fear inducing weave.

GonzoTheGreat
05-24-2010, 10:01 AM
As far as strange weaves well a lot of the Asha'man are experementing and finding new weaves or weaves that the Aes Sedai alreay have.Or weaves that AS supposedly have, according to the not very accurate stories doing the rounds.
That one might come to bite the AS in the ass: for a very long time they have been happy to have those superpowers attributed to them, now they may suddenly meet people who actually can do all that.

Belazamon
05-24-2010, 01:09 PM
Given the availability of books one could give Dashiva a pass on having the odd bit of knowledge about the wider world.
As I pointed out at the time, though - you can't learn to perfectly pronounce a foreign language strictly via books. ;)

Enigma
05-24-2010, 05:08 PM
As I pointed out at the time, though - you can't learn to perfectly pronounce a foreign language strictly via books. ;)

That is true but unless you are speaking to someone who is fluent in the foreign language who can tell your pronounciation is perfect. Very few people are experts at the old tongue even the better educated nobility.

nameless
05-24-2010, 07:01 PM
Books do seem to be more available to the lower classes that they would have been in the real world during the 18th century. The peddlers do a good trade with the Aiel when it comes to books and I think its not unreasonable to assume that they are not the only ones buying them. Mat Rand, Perrin, Nynaeve, Min etc all are literate after all.

Given the availability of books one could give Dashiva a pass on having the odd bit of knowledge about the wider world.

As far as strange weaves well a lot of the Asha'man are experementing and finding new weaves or weaves that the Aes Sedai alreay have. Flynn came up with several new ways to heal that was very close to what Nynaeve was doing not to mention a way to heal severing. There was another Asha'man who figured out how to bond a woman, someone was able to adapt it to force obedience on the captured Aes Sedai.

When you all it all up I don't think that Dashiva should immediatly have been spotted as a forsaken due to being a bit worldly and being able to come up with a fear inducing weave.

You left out the part where Taim was given specific orders to suspect that students who learned too fast might be Forsaken. Add that into the mix and the whole "farmboy who talks to himself in dead languages, is exceptionally strong, and can do things with the Power that no one else can" begins to look a lot more suspicious. It's true that Mat also manifested a sudden fluency in Old Tongue and other strange abilities, but the people around him immediately became curious and tried to figure out what was going on. With Dashiva no one seemed to care, despite the fact that they'd been told to be on the lookout for that sort of thing. Of course, the whole crazy mumbling to himself bit was a nice disguise. Everyone knows Forsaken don't go mad from the taint so it never occured to them to think that one of them might be insane due to natural causes.

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2010, 04:53 AM
Everyone knows Forsaken don't go mad from the taint so it never occured to them to think that one of them might be insane due to natural causes.No, the examples of Ishamael, the mad philosopher, Lanfear, the mad girlfriend, Moghedien, the crazy spider, Mesaana, the mad would-be scientist and Aginor, the mad genuine scientist, definitely weren't enough to suggest a pattern. Now if Graendal too had been a bit peculiar, then things might've been somewhat more obvious.

Tercel
05-25-2010, 08:15 AM
No, the examples of Ishamael, the mad philosopher, Lanfear, the mad girlfriend, Moghedien, the crazy spider, Mesaana, the mad would-be scientist and Aginor, the mad genuine scientist, definitely weren't enough to suggest a pattern. Now if Graendal too had been a bit peculiar, then things might've been somewhat more obvious.I think you're forgetting Semirhage the mad healer, and Demandred the mad with envy. Sammael, Belthamal and Be'lal probably belong in the 'close to mad' category. Perhaps Rahvin and Asmodean are the only two forsaken that are certifiably sane?

I suppose that, as a general rule, sane people don't sell their souls to the devil to try to take over the world.

Neilbert
05-25-2010, 08:42 AM
Mad musician mad politician.

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2010, 09:33 AM
How can you tell whether or not a musician is especially mad? I won't ask about the politician. You've clearly gone off the rails there.

Weird Harold
05-25-2010, 12:37 PM
How can you tell whether or not a musician is especially mad?

IIRC, something about razing an entire city over bad reviews of a concert might have been just a hint of asmodean's madness. :D

Belazamon
05-25-2010, 02:29 PM
IIRC, something about razing an entire city over bad reviews of a concert might have been just a hint of asmodean's madness. :D
Unless it's Detroit. Then it's just common sense.

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2010, 02:51 PM
IIRC, something about razing an entire city over bad reviews of a concert might have been just a hint of asmodean's madness. :DYour test merely seems to detect powerful musicians, not mad ones. I mean, wouldn't any musician do that, if he (or she) had the power to do so?

Sei'taer
05-25-2010, 03:53 PM
Your test merely seems to detect powerful musicians, not mad ones. I mean, wouldn't any musician do that, if he (or she) had the power to do so?

Maybe...is Lindsay Lohan a musician? Of course, she is wearing an ankle bracelet that detects alcohol in her sweat (or pee, if she ran some down her leg, I guess...or if someone had enough compassion to put her out if she was on fire and they had been drinking a lot...mostly likely she'd just kind of wither up and die like the wicked witch did if someone actually did pee on her. Of course, she's weird enough to be into that kind of thing.)

GonzoTheGreat
05-25-2010, 04:00 PM
If that's your last post ever, can we assume that Miss Lohan send a Myrddraal to play with you?

Sei'taer
05-25-2010, 04:09 PM
If that's your last post ever, can we assume that Miss Lohan send a Myrddraal to play with you?

I think they'd be scared of her (even Sir Haran). She's the reason booze is so expensive in the states.

Maybe I better watch my back for a few days.

Terez
05-25-2010, 05:21 PM
You know, I only the vaguest idea what these people look like and any details on their high-profile lives, but I know enough to notice imitators when I see them. Or at least, I'm starting to notice these girls in the 80s street hooker style clothes, and the big weird square sunglasses, rolling around in convertibles (or cars with all the windows down if they can't manage that), smoking cigarettes in that 20s parlor queen style. And the way they talk. GAH, it's pathetic.

tworiverswoman
05-26-2010, 04:05 AM
It's moderately depressing when you want to make some comment like, "These kids today. What in hell are they SMOKING?" and suddenly remember what your parents said about YOUR generation and suddenly have to check yourself and bottle it all back up.

Sigh...

Terez
05-26-2010, 04:10 AM
LOL, I think this is less of a generational thing so far as I'm concerned, and more of a matter of style. Every generation has those people.

GonzoTheGreat
05-26-2010, 05:03 AM
I'm not sure. Do they have style?

Terez
05-26-2010, 05:06 AM
They have someone else's style, but not much in the way of class.

Weird Harold
05-26-2010, 07:44 AM
Your test merely seems to detect powerful musicians, not mad ones. I mean, wouldn't any musician do that, if he (or she) had the power to do so?

I don't recall John Lennon razing any cities -- or any of the Beatles, really. If any musician was ever powerful enough to raze cities, it would have been John Lennon, who was reputedly more powerful than Jesus -- or was that just more popular than Jesus?

Terez
05-26-2010, 08:37 AM
Just more popular. And he was speaking of the band, not just himself.

Sei'taer
05-26-2010, 09:05 AM
I don't recall John Lennon razing any cities -- or any of the Beatles, really. If any musician was ever powerful enough to raze cities, it would have been John Lennon, who was reputedly more powerful than Jesus -- or was that just more popular than Jesus?

The Who got pretty loud back in the day too. Surely they at least blew out some windows or something.

Basel Gill
05-26-2010, 09:21 AM
Before they turned into total marketing whores, KISS was the loudest concert I ever went to back in the day. I feel certain they blew out a window or two...

nameless
05-26-2010, 09:30 AM
I don't recall John Lennon razing any cities -- or any of the Beatles, really. If any musician was ever powerful enough to raze cities, it would have been John Lennon, who was reputedly more powerful than Jesus -- or was that just more popular than Jesus?

The Beatles brought down the Soviet Union... sowing chaos across the largest empire on the planet isn't good enough for you?
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7283-9.cfm

Terez
05-26-2010, 09:40 AM
I think that it might have been a reference on RJ's part to the fable of Salieri vs. Mozart. Poor Salieri; Firefox dictionary doesn't recognize him...

There aren't a great deal of contentious composers in the history of music. Or at least, where there was contentiousness, there was always a loser whose music is lost in the mists of time. Sigismund Thalberg comes to mind (Firefox doesn't recognize him either).

Weird Harold
05-26-2010, 11:03 PM
The Beatles brought down the Soviet Union... sowing chaos across the largest empire on the planet isn't good enough for you?
http://www.cdi.org/russia/johnson/7283-9.cfm

They did not do that deliberately or because they were angry at russion crtics.

and...

they did not 'raze' the Soviet Union:

Main Entry: raze
Pronunciation: \ˈrāz\
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): razed; raz·ing
Etymology: alteration of rase
Date: 1536

1 a archaic : erase b : to scrape, cut, or shave off
2 : to destroy to the ground : demolish <raze an old building>


(Terez, I knew the quote but misquoted intentionally because all of the christian outrage at the time misquoted him as well.)

nameless
05-27-2010, 12:10 AM
They did not do that deliberately or because they were angry at russion crtics.



You can't prove that :p

Neilbert
05-27-2010, 12:52 AM
The Who got pretty loud back in the day too. Surely they at least blew out some windows or something.

I had a music class text book that briefly talked about concerts in the 80s and getting out of control. It mentioned that bands started competing to see who could throw the largest show, and then made a point of mentioning, almost as an aside, that the Who won. I guess you can't mention a contest without mentioning the winner, but it was so delightfully out of place that it will stick with me forever and I will always think of the Who as the loudest band of all time. After Disaster Area of course.

Casabamelon
05-27-2010, 08:56 AM
I had a music class text book that briefly talked about concerts in the 80s and getting out of control. It mentioned that bands started competing to see who could throw the largest show, and then made a point of mentioning, almost as an aside, that the Who won. I guess you can't mention a contest without mentioning the winner, but it was so delightfully out of place that it will stick with me forever and I will always think of the Who as the loudest band of all time. After Disaster Area of course.

Well, it's just not fair to include Disaster Area in the conversation. How do you compete with a band loud enough to destroy an indigenous people's telepathy and who ends their show with a solar flare?
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