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irerancincpkc
05-19-2010, 12:52 PM
So, Sunday night six years of wondering will finally end? Last thoughts, anyone? :D

JSUCamel
05-19-2010, 01:00 PM
So, Sunday night six years of wondering will finally end? Last thoughts, anyone? :D

I got plenty. My coworkers think I'm insane for how deeply involved my theories are, but hey.. I'm from Theoryland.. what can I say? :)

irerancincpkc
05-19-2010, 01:34 PM
I got plenty. My coworkers think I'm insane for how deeply involved my theories are, but hey.. I'm from Theoryland.. what can I say? :)

Yeah, I was up for four hours after the episode aired last night still talking about it with friends... the hardest thing for me is trying to figure out what questions will be answered, and what will be left open. :) Heck, I'm still trying to connect Walt in with the MIB, if only cause I -need- a reason why he was special... :D

Tamyrlin
05-19-2010, 03:29 PM
Depending on how this all ends...sadly I'm coming to the conclusion that I may never recommend watching Lost to another person. The supposed mythology is rather sparse and utterly confusing, and the plot conflicts are hard to justify for a series that wants us to believe it is firmly set in our world. So much remains unexplained, and I believe ninety minutes will not be enough, even if they reveal a final twist.

The writers have spent an entire season revealing a timid, almost laughable, sibling rivalry inspired by some murderous insane woman that refuses to let one boy (who has some unknown and rather convenient access to knowledge about the island and how to use the island to leave the island) leave the island inspiring his murderous rage which apparently inspires his somewhat stupider brother (who don't forget supposedly cannot kill his brother because of something his fake mother supposedly did to them to stop them from killing each other...right) to create a something that appears as his brother that still wants to leave the island (but apparently can't until he finds a loophole, which apparently is only possible because his brother Jacob brought the loopholes to the island in the first place, which appears to be a most ridiculous second, third, fourth, infinity mistake after chucking his brother down that magical hole since he was supposed to be protecting the island...right) but must not according to some supposed "end of the world" spiel which we are given by the somewhat stupider brother that is doing what his insane mother told him to do, at least up until the point that he apparently got bored and decided he wanted someone else to take over for his supposed mistake simply because they had crappy lives in the first place...ridiculousness. Don't forget, he found all of these people using magically enhanced tools on the island but chalk apparently is just chalk. I'm all for Sci-fi and Fantasy, just not terribly five year long rather meaningless flights of fancy simply to discuss the concept of "choice" and "destiny".

This season has made me lose faith in writers that I thought weren't taking the title of their show THAT seriously. I thought they would take an entire season to justify our devotion to what is clear now was just a garbled delusional concept that they've had significant problems sustaining in many ways similar to Star Wars episodes 1-3. A final ninety minutes is left to prove that this story has always been about "relationships" and the mythology was simply a means to that end, making all of our attempts to explain it the biggest joke of them all.

To the writers I say: just admit there aren't any answers that we the fans can't, with ease, poke holes in repeatedly.

Belazamon
05-19-2010, 04:20 PM
Mild nitpick, Tam - the finale is 150 minutes, not 90. :)

irerancincpkc
05-20-2010, 07:59 AM
at least up until the point that he apparently got bored and decided he wanted someone else to take over for his supposed mistake simply because they had crappy lives in the first place...ridiculousness.

I thought he knew that Ben would kill him, and that's why he had to find someone to take over for him.

As for the rest of what you had to say, I'll just say that while the mystery is a major part of the show, for me, it's not why I watch it. I watch it for Jack, for Hurley, for Ben, the characters I've learned to love and hate the past six years. If the finale is entertaining, and does right by the characters, I have no problem with every single question not being answered. Do I want to find out why Walt is special and woman can't have babies on the island? Absouetly. But it won't kill the series for me if I don't. I can live with it, because pretty much every minute of Lost has been entertaining and better than most of the crap on TV. I have in particular loved the past three seasons, and really loved this last one with the two universes, and I have total faith in the writers to entertain us, be true to the characters we've come to love, and answer as many questions as naturally seems possible. I do not want a finale, or even a final season, for that matter, that was just about answering questions. Cause thats not Lost...

Tamyrlin
05-20-2010, 11:02 AM
I thought he knew that Ben would kill him, and that's why he had to find someone to take over for him.


That's my point. He knew Ben was there to kill him and he allowed it to happen, where as if you recall he beat the crap out of Richard when the MIB sent him to kill him. He gave up. As he tells Jack, "for as long as you can". He was done, even though it was all his damn fault in the first place, and it continued to be his fault as he is the one that seemingly kept bringing people to the island. Without John Locke and the candidates coming to the island, the MIB would never have had his loophole.


As for the rest of what you had to say, I'll just say that while the mystery is a major part of the show, for me, it's not why I watch it. I watch it for Jack, for Hurley, for Ben, the characters I've learned to love and hate the past six years. If the finale is entertaining, and does right by the characters, I have no problem with every single question not being answered. Do I want to find out why Walt is special and woman can't have babies on the island? Absouetly. But it won't kill the series for me if I don't. I can live with it, because pretty much every minute of Lost has been entertaining and better than most of the crap on TV. I have in particular loved the past three seasons, and really loved this last one with the two universes, and I have total faith in the writers to entertain us, be true to the characters we've come to love, and answer as many questions as naturally seems possible. I do not want a finale, or even a final season, for that matter, that was just about answering questions. Cause thats not Lost...

Don't get me wrong. I love watching Ben, Hurley and a few others. Some are boring. Some are stupid. But some are great and they are fun to watch. However, you can't disconnect Lost from the mythology which has so many holes it's hard to defend. It's like not acknowledging the holes in the show Heroes. I liked some of those characters, and loved watching them, but the writers lost their way repeatedly until it became quite absurd. I like Lost, but it's coming down to me having to tell people "don't try to understand the mythology, because it doesn't actually make sense and it will simply hurt your head trying to make excuses for big holes you find. The writers were a bit over their heads in that, but they wrote some great characters and threw in plenty of "mysterious" elements to make it compelling". I guess I'm a bit dismayed that I can't say to people, "greatest series ever".

By the way, I'm not talking about small mysteries, which I imagine no one should have to explain completely, that's part of the fun. I'm talking about significant plot deficiencies such as the one I pointed out: the apparently ridiculous need for "candidates" (along with Jacob's silly explanation of 'don't blame me, your lives sucked anyway' crap) and what we are supposed to accept as Jacob's "you must choose" attitude (which didn't prevent him from stopping Richard but did prevent him from stopping Ben)...when supposedly the entire world is on the line. Plot necessities multiplied throughout the last two seasons and haven't stopped and that's what bums me out. I wanted to believe they actually had a well thought out plot.

However - there is some time for them to add a final twist that somehow explains the absurdity. I grant them that - but I've pretty much LOST all hope.

Crispin's Crispian
05-20-2010, 02:04 PM
I was highly discouraged after the Bad Twin episode, just because the explanations they did give were either way too vague or cops out.

There's a hole with light in it. It is the source of...heat, life, warmth, rebirth, etc. But don't go in it or you face a "fate worse than death." That's the secret of the island?

Jacob has is special powers because his murderous adoptive mom gave them to him. Where did she get them? Don't ask, because it will just lead to more questions.

Smokey was created when the nameless Twin was thrown into the light hole. How? Why? Is it the brother reincarnated, or is it that the death of the moderately bad twin released Smokey? Either way, what the hell is he and how can "evil incarnate" live in a light-hole that is the source of all goodness and life?

I was slightly happier with the last ep, because it did hint that there has been an overarching plot all along. We knew they were flawed people in search of something, and we knew something connected them all to each other and the island. Now we know it was Jacob, which we all thought.

Jacob as the overriding entity (other than Smokey) has been present from the beginning. It's just that he's kind of lame. :(

One other nitpick: Smokey bargained with Ben by promising him he'd give him the island. Ben was happy. Then Smokey revealed to Ben that, in order to get off the island, Smokey had to destroy it. WTF?

I still can't wait to see the finale, the alt-reality of which should be pretty awesome. I don't know how Desmond and the EM stuff is going to fit in yet.

My predictions:

1) Jack is going to die via throat slit. Hurley or Sawyer will take his place...um...somehow.

2) Ben is going to sacrifice himself or become the Smoke Monster by diving in to the light hole.

3) Kate will die.

4) Somehow the fate of the island will be tied to Locke's alt-reality body, and Jack will either have to sacrifice alt-Locke or save alt-Locke in order to save the island. Just a total WAG.

Tamyrlin
05-20-2010, 03:29 PM
Here are some really lame parts of this plot:

1. Kate, you are a mother, so I thought...but chalk is just chalk.

Seriously? Sawyer isn't a father? The Kwons don't have a child? FAIL

2. I wanted you to be able to make the choice, that I wasn't given.

Ben, Dogan, Widmore? Each of these individuals was even more devoted to the island and more akin to your crazy Fake Mother than any of the candidates you brought to the island. Hell, Ben and your Fake Mother could have been cut from the same crazy cloth. The Losties were absolutely unnecessary to take over in your stead. After all, chalk is just chalk, Jacob. FAIL.

JSUCamel
05-20-2010, 03:32 PM
My predictions:

1) Jack is going to die via throat slit. Hurley or Sawyer will take his place...um...somehow.

2) Ben is going to sacrifice himself or become the Smoke Monster by diving in to the light hole.

3) Kate will die.

4) Somehow the fate of the island will be tied to Locke's alt-reality body, and Jack will either have to sacrifice alt-Locke or save alt-Locke in order to save the island. Just a total WAG.

I came to the same conclusions, except for #3. I'm not sure Kate will die, after all. My theorizing went far deeper than this, though, into a metaphysical level of why and how all of this is possible. Ah well.

I'm probably gonna be disappointed on Sunday night.

Crispin's Crispian
05-20-2010, 04:14 PM
Here are some really lame parts of this plot:

1. Kate, you are a mother, so I thought...but chalk is just chalk.

Seriously? Sawyer isn't a father? The Kwons don't have a child? FAIL

In their defense, the Kwons were brought there before Sun was pregnant. Plus Jacob is ruthless enough to think single-parenting is OK.

Sawyer...well I guess he's technically a father, but he's not involved. He doesn't have that dependency.

2. I wanted you to be able to make the choice, that I wasn't given.

Ben, Dogan, Widmore? Each of these individuals was even more devoted to the island and more akin to your crazy Fake Mother than any of the candidates you brought to the island. Hell, Ben and your Fake Mother could have been cut from the same crazy cloth. The Losties were absolutely unnecessary to take over in your stead. After all, chalk is just chalk, Jacob. FAIL.

Clearly there is something special about the Losties. Ben is clearly bloodthirsty, Widmore was too ambitious, and Dogan... Too perfect?

Tamyrlin
05-20-2010, 06:01 PM
In their defense, the Kwons were brought there before Sun was pregnant. Plus Jacob is ruthless enough to think single-parenting is OK.

Sawyer...well I guess he's technically a father, but he's not involved. He doesn't have that dependency.


Kate doesn't have a child does she (am I forgetting something)? Not until she had Claire's baby, which by this time the Kwons were parents.


Clearly there is something special about the Losties. Ben is clearly bloodthirsty, Widmore was too ambitious, and Dogan... Too perfect?

You recall Jacob's Fake Mother, the previous protector? Quite bloodthirsty wouldn't you say? :)

Gilshalos Sedai
05-21-2010, 08:51 AM
Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie are stuck on an island....

JSUCamel
05-21-2010, 09:09 AM
Han, Luke, Leia and Chewie are stuck on an island....

http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/049/464/original/tumblr_l0kapnI0Vu1qzjmabo1_500.jpg?1273755399

Frenzy
05-21-2010, 11:12 AM
i say a minor character from season one (one that died early) wakes up after falling asleep in the airplane lavatory, wipes the drool from their chin, then walks back to their seat.

Then instant cut to black.

Gilshalos Sedai
05-21-2010, 01:06 PM
http://cdn1.knowyourmeme.com/i/000/049/464/original/tumblr_l0kapnI0Vu1qzjmabo1_500.jpg?1273755399

I'm actually kinda serious, Camel. Abrams has said most of his inspiration, at least for the characters, was from Star Wars and has admitted to being an SW geek.

Gilshalos Sedai
05-21-2010, 01:07 PM
i say a minor character from season one (one that died early) wakes up after falling asleep in the airplane lavatory, wipes the drool from their chin, then walks back to their seat.

Then instant cut to black.


Bite your tongue.

Crispin's Crispian
05-21-2010, 02:26 PM
i say a minor character from season one (one that died early) wakes up after falling asleep in the airplane lavatory, wipes the drool from their chin, then walks back to their seat.

Then instant cut to black.

Gary Troup.

irerancincpkc
05-21-2010, 10:11 PM
I'm actually kinda serious, Camel. Abrams has said most of his inspiration, at least for the characters, was from Star Wars and has admitted to being an SW geek.

Yeah, I read an interview that mentioned that. Star Wars and Stephen King's The Stand...

Belazamon
05-22-2010, 01:18 AM
i say a minor character from season one (one that died early) wakes up after falling asleep in the airplane lavatory, wipes the drool from their chin, then walks back to their seat.

Then instant cut to black.
F O U N D

irerancincpkc
05-22-2010, 09:48 AM
I just got called into work for Sunday night... :mad:

Guess I'll have to rush home and watch it Monday morning, and avoid the internet at all costs until than. :eek:

irerancincpkc
05-22-2010, 10:28 AM
Lost re-enacted by cats. :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-DShnvNNv0

Watch it. It's awesome. :D

Birgitte
05-22-2010, 02:17 PM
You all everybody! Except me. I'm dead.

JSUCamel
05-22-2010, 02:24 PM
This is a nice editorial about the finale of Lost:
http://m.npr.org/news/front/127009457?page=1

Read the whole thing (gotta hit Next Page a few times.. short pages though)

SauceyBlueConfetti
05-22-2010, 03:45 PM
I don't care if it all doesn't tie up into a neat little package.
I don't care if all the stuff doesn't make total sense (I know, take away my Theoryland badge now, I know, I know)
I don't care a whole lot about Jacob.

I have enjoyed the ride, which is more than I can say for 95% of network TV in the last ten years. It made me think, I argued, I talked, I envied, I anticipated, I became INVOLVED. Regardless of some of the disappointments over the years in story lines, I had fun.

Gonna miss you, Lost.

JSUCamel
05-23-2010, 01:20 AM
I don't care if it all doesn't tie up into a neat little package.
I don't care if all the stuff doesn't make total sense (I know, take away my Theoryland badge now, I know, I know)
I don't care a whole lot about Jacob.



I have enjoyed the ride, which is more than I can say for 95% of network TV in the last ten years. It made me think, I argued, I talked, I envied, I anticipated, I became INVOLVED. Regardless of some of the disappointments over the years in story lines, I had fun.

Gonna miss you, Lost.

Here be spoilers:

I agree. I don't think the mysteries are the important parts. The important parts are the characters. Like the NPR article said, when Juliet died, the fact that she may be alive in the sideways timeline or other alternate time lines doesn't matter -- for Sawyer, she died. THAT is what matters: the way he handled it and his subsequent transformation.

There are a few things that I want to see resolved, but honestly, even if some of the answers aren't perfect, they're enough. I don't need to know exactly why Jack drinking some water and speaking Latin makes him immortal -- I just need to know that it does, and his reaction, his acceptance of this burden, and his understanding of what is required, is all that matters.

Mort
05-23-2010, 06:57 AM
This is a nice editorial about the finale of Lost:
http://m.npr.org/news/front/127009457?page=1

Read the whole thing (gotta hit Next Page a few times.. short pages though)

Nice article. Didn't know that was how I felt about Lost, but the article put words on it.
Screw explanations, as long as there is a good story involved, I can suspend disbelief.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-23-2010, 01:08 PM
I loved that for every situation with a tough choice, the characters are always missing a critical piece of context. Sometimes they don't even know what the stakes are. Even Jacob and Smokey are acting without any more than their beliefs about what the Island and the Cave are. If the winner of the final conflict is wrong, everyone pays. No one has all the answers, until the last 10 minutes when someone finally enters the cave and we see what's inside. Then we find out how bad they've screwed it up.

I also loved that Lost never dumbed down to reach out to a broader audience. It kept you thinking and wondering all week long. It's probably our disadvantage that we all debate theories endlessly here, and contrive elaborate scenarios as a hobby, that we'll be disappointed when the answers turn out simpler than we thought.

My predictions: Jack dies, and the other candidates fight to be the real candidate, because each has a different idea of what needs to be done. All the candidates fail, and it's up to Desmond to lead the last charge. The other universe characters must choose if they'd prefer their island selves or their L.A. selves to continue existing. Battle lines are drawn, and a mass kill-off of L.A. Castaways ensues as each strives to create the very fabric of reality they want. A single survivor enters the Cave. They are amazed by what they discover. They emerge and another surviving character stands to oppose them. We still don't know who is right and who is wrong. End title.

Hope you all enjoy the show!

JSUCamel
05-23-2010, 02:42 PM
I loved that for every situation with a tough choice, the characters are always missing a critical piece of context. Sometimes they don't even know what the stakes are. Even Jacob and Smokey are acting without any more than their beliefs about what the Island and the Cave are. If the winner of the final conflict is wrong, everyone pays. No one has all the answers, until the last 10 minutes when someone finally enters the cave and we see what's inside. Then we find out how bad they've screwed it up.

I also loved that Lost never dumbed down to reach out to a broader audience. It kept you thinking and wondering all week long. It's probably our disadvantage that we all debate theories endlessly here, and contrive elaborate scenarios as a hobby, that we'll be disappointed when the answers turn out simpler than we thought.

My predictions: Jack dies, and the other candidates fight to be the real candidate, because each has a different idea of what needs to be done. All the candidates fail, and it's up to Desmond to lead the last charge. The other universe characters must choose if they'd prefer their island selves or their L.A. selves to continue existing. Battle lines are drawn, and a mass kill-off of L.A. Castaways ensues as each strives to create the very fabric of reality they want. A single survivor enters the Cave. They are amazed by what they discover. They emerge and another surviving character stands to oppose them. We still don't know who is right and who is wrong. End title.

Hope you all enjoy the show!

Excellent theory! I wouldn't be disappointed if that's what happens. Just a few hours to go!

Matoyak
05-23-2010, 08:09 PM
http://cache.gawker.com/assets/images/comment/9/2010/05/9893d781a48ba3687c081cdf16c4763e/340x.jpg

The guys on the IGN Three Red Lights podcast are betting that at the end the screen cuts to black, and JJ Abrams wakes up, says "It was all a dream...but then where'd all this money come from?!" and the screen pans out to show him lying in a huge pile of money.
Fade to black.
Honestly, I would almost actually watch this episode if I could guarantee it would end that way.

Tamyrlin
05-24-2010, 04:38 AM
Strangely, I was about to let all of my hang-ups go. In fact, I almost shed a tear or two throughout the last 150 minutes. I could hear myself saying, "ok, maybe the sheer number of silly inconsistencies and plot contrivances don't matter, because they have something special, something greater in store for us". I was ready to come up here and say, "look, huge plot holes aside, they ended it right".

But, no. Terrible. Contrived. Hollywood. Indulgent. Everything I feared happened in the very last ten or fifteen minutes.

I wish we had this last season, minus the sideways world. At the very least, it would have ended right. Instead...I'm so disappointed.

Gilshalos Sedai
05-24-2010, 08:44 AM
I really wish they could have left out the afterlife alternate universe crap.

Davian93
05-24-2010, 10:05 AM
So....who shot J.R.?

Sinistrum
05-24-2010, 10:14 AM
Ugh, another scifi series ruined by its ending. That's pretty much all I have to say on the subject.

WinespringBrother
05-24-2010, 11:03 AM
At least Rose and Bernard lived happily ever after :)

I find that whole purgatory thing so annoying! I'm assuming it took place at some far future time after they all died in the regular universe. That would make it a little less annoying at least.

Ozymandias
05-24-2010, 11:18 AM
I thought the episode was going great until the last 15 minutes. Now, I should preface all this by saying that I was a Lost hater until this season; I thought the producers and writers threw in every sort of bullshit contrivance to keep their audiences watching (like time travel, movement through physical space, tons of completely unexplained crap, etc). Then I got bored a few weeks back and watched most of the back episodes and kind of got into this season.

The first 135 minutes were excellent. All of the reunion scenes were touching, the action moved at a decent clip on the island, at least, and everything was hunky dory. But that ending is the reason I didn't want to watch the show in the first place. Its the kind of dues ex machina plot device the writers have been throwing in since Day 1. You can't really give them credit for making the show at this point because so much of what made it good was also completely irrelevant to the plot. Now I understand that not everything means something, but this show took it to extremes.

And you can't even compare the nebulous nature of this ending to other disappointing endings, like the Soprano's. This was an ending, whereas that was just the end of a snapshot of Tony Soprano's world. They're dead. They should have had something more concrete. The fact that the writers created such a ridiculously intricate world and story is NOT an excuse for their inability to clean up some of the loose ends. It didn't have to be everything, but the whole ending felt so incredibly rushed. The Source, the final Purgatory scene, all of it felt so contrived as to defy imagination.

Davian93
05-24-2010, 11:23 AM
The Sopranos ending was actually really good. It just took a couple years to realize it and after rewatching it a couple times, it gets better and better.

Sinistrum
05-24-2010, 02:13 PM
Hey, here's a thought. How about the alternate reality actually be an alternate reality? How about Mrs. Hawking, Faraday, Jack, and Juliet were actually right? How about you actually go with the Schroedinger's cat box plot arc you've been messing with for the last two seasons, and have the happy ending in the alternate reality, and the Island reality actually fall apart? But no, instead we get this contrived spirituality based brow beating just like BSG. I will reiterate my UGH! And that's not even getting me started on all the goddamn questions that weren't answered after their ad campaign for this season was "ALL WILL BE ANSWERED!"

I'm assuming it took place at some far future time after they all died in the regular universe. That would make it a little less annoying at least.

Well most of them died at different points in time. It may not be necessarily in the future, so much as a point in their consciousness where time had no meaning because it all intersected.

Belazamon
05-24-2010, 02:23 PM
As a voice of dissent - I loved it.

Screw you guys.

ShadowbaneX
05-24-2010, 02:59 PM
As a voice of dissent to everyone else, I watched the pilot however many years ago, didn't like it and as such haven't spent the last whatever years pointlessly confused! Wheee!

Matoyak
05-24-2010, 03:10 PM
I never watched a single episode (not necessarily by choice at first (though I did purposefully stay away later), as I didn't even know Lost existed until the 3rd season...I don't watch TV), and after the superragehatediepleasedie backlash, holy fuck am I glad I stayed away in spite of all the pressure to get into it.

dominominic
05-24-2010, 04:16 PM
As a voice of dissent to everyone else, I watched the pilot however many years ago, didn't like it and as such haven't spent the last whatever years pointlessly confused! Wheee!

Right on!

I watched the first half of the pilot too all those years ago, got bored, then went and made a sandwich.

And let me tell you, that sandwich has never let me down.

reTaardad
05-24-2010, 04:19 PM
So....who shot J.R.?

Samwise Gamgee. Then he used waterbending and lifted the Enterprise out of the waters of Dagobah, but Bob Saget was being a dick and poked him in the stomach. Keep up, dude, I hate explaining these things over and over.

Firseal
05-24-2010, 05:31 PM
Will contain spoilers. For the six of you who care.

I enjoyed it. More, I'll go further - things fit together a lot better than most of the folks in this thread are giving credit to.

Now, this is from someone who is happier pretending that the last, oh, thirty-odd minutes of Battlestar Galatica 2.0 never happened (or, for that matter, much of SG1 after a certain point) so it isn't like the show is getting a pass. It isn't. It didn't bother to explain itself all that often, true, but I liked that. I don't need shows to explain themselves - I like figuring things out myself.

Am I somewhat disappointed that the Sideways was a Celestial Stage, wherein the dead relinquished their earthly ties? A bit. After all that, everything that happened, it would have been so much sweeter to have a world where people got their happy endings, and they literally could have gone there up to the instant Locke said, "You don't have a son." That's the point where things became irreversable, and we weren't getting the happy ending.

But you know, sometimes we aren't supposed to get happy endings. Life is bittersweet, and anyone who tells you otherwise is selling something or a lucky, annoyingly innocent bugger. They got as close to a happy ending as they could on a show where one of the few things we were told repeatedly and from the start was 'death is for keeps'. We didn't quite expect them to take it that far, but them's the breaks.

Was it a perfect end? No. Some people will be so invested that they'll have wanted it to be, and will be bitter because it wasn't. That's fine. But don't poison the well - while it wasn't perfect, it was certainly good.

Zaela Sedai
05-24-2010, 05:47 PM
As a voice of dissent to everyone else, I watched the pilot however many years ago, didn't like it and as such haven't spent the last whatever years pointlessly confused! Wheee!


I made it past that... I stopped when the button pissed me off... I think I'm glad I did....

although at least you have a better ending than Heroes...~cries~

ShadowbaneX
05-24-2010, 06:16 PM
I made it past that... I stopped when the button pissed me off... I think I'm glad I did....

although at least you have a better ending than Heroes...~cries~
Heroes had a great ending. They saved the cheerleader, Sylar died, Peter & Nathan blew up. It was great for everyone...'cept Hiro. He just sorta disappeared, never to return.

Birgitte
05-24-2010, 07:02 PM
Heroes had a great ending. They saved the cheerleader, Sylar died, Peter & Nathan blew up. It was great for everyone...'cept Hiro. He just sorta disappeared, never to return.

What he said.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-24-2010, 10:01 PM
Obviously, spoilers ahead.

I learned from BSG, "keep your expectations in check, those writers don't know all the theories you've cobbled together, so just let go". It worked, and I enjoyed the finale a lot.

Events unfolded more simply than I would have liked, but I expected that. The other universe was not "the evil held in by the Island", and in fact, other than the moral lesson they offered up, served no real purpose except to convince Desmond to say "none of this matters, brutha". Good thing too, since Jack's faith in Jacob's failsafe seems ill-placed. Also odd that Juliet's soda-dispensing machine analogy held more truth than all Jacob and Smokey's Jibber-Jabber. That's typical for Lost. You never know who's right and who's wrong until it's too late.

I'm sure the Producers have/will prove me wrong in interviews, but I am still not convinced Smoke Monster really is the disembodied soul of Man In Black. If he can take the form of any dead person, then Man in Black's form is the logical one to take when talking to Jacob. In fact, Smokey was probably around long before, and took the form of their mother and twisted Man in Black's mind into wanting to leave the Island. SOMEONE had to be the dead mother.

The bathtub in the Island's basement was awesome. A literal plug. This, and many other things wound up being simpler than the many convoluted possibilities we came up with, but that was the appeal of Lost. It was very interactive for fans, just like a certain fantasy series we all know. Getting to the end was a hell of a lot of fun, and I'm sorry for anyone who missed out on it, because the theorizing was EPIC.

A lot is made of bad endings, and how the ball seems to be dropped. My brother and I were going over the features of the great endings, and why they worked. One thing we came up with was setting up the ending, or as Brandon Sanderson would say, delivering on promises to your viewers/listeners. In Star Wars they show a computer simulation of the torpedo heading down the Death Star shaft, and your anticipation builds up for that outcome. When it does come, against all odds because they've convinced you by now that it can't happen that way, there's a huge payoff.

In Lost, fan dismay over the metaphysical aspects is a lot like when BSG ended. A lot of fans didn't want religious overtones winning the day in their favorite SCIENCE-FICTION show. I suspect the day is not far off when some sci-fi show will finally have the guts to let the hero win without some kind of divine guiding hand, without prophecy or fate, just a hero or heroine making choices and winning out, and proving all the mythical claptrap wrong. It seems like the market is not only ready, but begging for that. Where have all the Conans and Tarzans gone?

Anyway, the ending's not what I would have written, but it never is. I still enjoyed it, and enjoyed the payoffs I got from several story aspects, and really enjoy the lack of definitive answers that will keep me thinking about this show for a long time yet. If Lost was great for one thing, it was making you think. It reminds me so much of certain mysteries in Wheel of Time. Maybe the weakness was that in attracting thinkers as fans, there is no way to keep continuity tight enough to resist our combined scrutiny.

Ah well, the sequel show would have Hurley and Ben as guest-stars, and a whole new cast!

Sinistrum
05-24-2010, 10:14 PM
In Lost, fan dismay over the metaphysical aspects is a lot like when BSG ended. A lot of fans didn't want religious overtones winning the day in their favorite SCIENCE-FICTION show. I suspect the day is not far off when some sci-fi show will finally have the guts to let the hero win without some kind of divine guiding hand, without prophecy or fate, just a hero or heroine making choices and winning out, and proving all the mythical claptrap wrong. It seems like the market is not only ready, but begging for that. Where have all the Conans and Tarzans gone?

Please see, Reynolds, Malcolm, for an example of your principle in action. And the metaphysical aspects of the ending were a large part of the reason I was so turned off by it. It really was just BSG all over again.

JSUCamel
05-24-2010, 10:46 PM
A literal plug.

I thought of it as more of a literal cork (like in Jacob's example with the wine bottle). Smokey/Locke got cork-blocked!

irerancincpkc
05-24-2010, 11:39 PM
I loved it. Man, I broke down when Jack passed the protectorship to Hurley, and than Hurley's reaction to Jack's 'death'... :(

Really, it was amazing, and a perfect end to the character's storylines. Were questions answered? No, and I really don't care. I've loved both of the metaphysical endings to BSG and LOST. I would have no problem recommending the whole series to someone who hasn't seen it.

Tamyrlin
05-25-2010, 01:44 AM
Insane Sociopath Fake Mother was forced to leave Idiot Inept Son to protect the Mystical End of the World Light instead of the Favored Special Smart Nameless Brother turned Powerful Guardian Angsty Smoke Monster. Idiot inept Son gets tired of protecting Magical Stream That Runs Through It to Mystical End of the World Light Plug, so he brings Lost Souls to the Wonderful Island of Oz to be his Stop My Smart Brother From Leaving the Island So I Can Leave The Island candidates. A prolonged episode of Survivor "The Time Traveling Island" series ensues, where Son of the Shepherd, Savior of Island-kind loses the Final Immunity Challenge allowing Chubby No One Thought That Guy Would Survive on this Island This Long to win the 156 million dollar grand prize. Strangely, Russell, yet again, is forced to take second place, winning a third Fan Favorite prize, but still not comfortable at the After Limbo Party where everyone he kicked off the Island and stabbed in the back are hugging it out.

Mort
05-25-2010, 05:21 AM
Insane Sociopath Fake Mother was forced to leave Idiot Inept Son to protect the Mystical End of the World Light instead of the Favored Special Smart Nameless Brother turned Powerful Guardian Angsty Smoke Monster. Idiot inept Son gets tired of protecting Magical Stream That Runs Through It to Mystical End of the World Light Plug, so he brings Lost Souls to the Wonderful Island of Oz to be his Stop My Smart Brother From Leaving the Island So I Can Leave The Island candidates. A prolonged episode of Survivor "The Time Traveling Island" series ensues, where Son of the Shepherd, Savior of Island-kind loses the Final Immunity Challenge allowing Chubby No One Thought That Guy Would Survive on this Island This Long to win the 156 million dollar grand prize. Strangely, Russell, yet again, is forced to take second place, winning a third Fan Favorite prize, but still not comfortable at the After Limbo Party where everyone he kicked off the Island and stabbed in the back are hugging it out.

Not at all bitter are we? :)

I liked the ending, it felt a little too much like a wrap up. Like a reunion episode at times. But good nonetheless.
I also don't care much for the "unanswered questions". I knew they were coming, this is Lost after all.

Even though you knew now that the sideways world was the afterlife, there are still things left unanswered, and more questions added because we got that answered.

We don't know who Jacob's mother really was, or why Jacob seemingly embraced his death the way he did. When did everyone die? Where did the afterlife take place for everyone? Why did the water near the light make you like Jacob if you drank it? Did Lupides et al survive it all since they got on the plane and left? They weren't with all the others in the afterlife, even though we saw the guy who could speak to dead people with Sawyer. And I don't think I need to know either.

I think Lost were never about making sense of mysteries. It was about characters acting out in a world where there are unanswered, unimaginable mysteries that you just have to accept, because apparently they really are real. It's frustrating because we all seek answers and like theorizing what those answers are, but the end goal, I believe, is character stories.

This article (http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/05/24/lost-finale-the-ending-explained/) says pretty much what I felt about the last episode.

Davian93
05-25-2010, 07:45 AM
Insane Sociopath Fake Mother was forced to leave Idiot Inept Son to protect the Mystical End of the World Light instead of the Favored Special Smart Nameless Brother turned Powerful Guardian Angsty Smoke Monster. Idiot inept Son gets tired of protecting Magical Stream That Runs Through It to Mystical End of the World Light Plug, so he brings Lost Souls to the Wonderful Island of Oz to be his Stop My Smart Brother From Leaving the Island So I Can Leave The Island candidates. A prolonged episode of Survivor "The Time Traveling Island" series ensues, where Son of the Shepherd, Savior of Island-kind loses the Final Immunity Challenge allowing Chubby No One Thought That Guy Would Survive on this Island This Long to win the 156 million dollar grand prize. Strangely, Russell, yet again, is forced to take second place, winning a third Fan Favorite prize, but still not comfortable at the After Limbo Party where everyone he kicked off the Island and stabbed in the back are hugging it out.


Survivor is dead to me. The fact that Russell came in 3rd (in the finals) twice despite playing the best game in the history of the show both times shows how pathetic it has become. Its not supposed to be "Who can make the most friends and piss off the least people by doing nothing" Its "Outwit, Outplay, Outlast"

JSUCamel
05-25-2010, 09:20 AM
We don't know who Jacob's mother really was, or why Jacob seemingly embraced his death the way he did. When did everyone die? Where did the afterlife take place for everyone? Why did the water near the light make you like Jacob if you drank it? Did Lupides et al survive it all since they got on the plane and left? They weren't with all the others in the afterlife, even though we saw the guy who could speak to dead people with Sawyer. And I don't think I need to know either.

We can answer a few of those.

When did everyone die? Where did the afterlife take place for everyone?

Everything that happened on the island actually happened. When Boone died in season 1, he really died there. When Shannon died, she really died there. Sayid really died in the submarine.

The sideways reality takes place presumably hundreds of years after Jack's death. How do we know this? Because of Hurley's last comments to Ben: "You were a great number two, Ben." "You were a great number one, Hugo." This implies that the two of them had a long, successful reign as Protector and Advisor of the Island. They fooled us into thinking the sideways reality was concurrent, but it was not. Everyone had to die before they could show up in the purgatory-esque place.

My theory about where it all took place is simply a purgatory created by Hurley so that they could all be together when they died. Much like Jacob was able to make his own rules, Hurley was able to create his (see: last conversation on island between Hurley and Ben). I think it was Hurley's idea for them to all be together one last time -- as opposed to God's idea or whatever.

Did Lupides et al survive it all since they got on the plane and left? They weren't with all the others in the afterlife, even though we saw the guy who could speak to dead people with Sawyer.

Lapidas, Miles, Kate, Claire, Sawyer and Richard presumably make it back to the real world. I would posit that Sawyer and Kate go and take care of Ji Yeon (Sun and Jin's kid), while Claire goes back to take care of Aaron. Lapidas and Miles probably cashed in on their celebrity from surviving, and Richard... well, that would be an interesting story. But yes, they survived. Christian says "Everybody dies, Jack" toward the end -- he's not just talking about the island. Kate, Sawyer and Claire could have died of old age, or a car accident, or drug overdose, or any number of ways -- but they died off the island.

But the reasons that Lapidas, Miles and Richard weren't in the afterlife with the others are A) they weren't survivors of the plane, and B) they weren't part of the "family" that was created on the Island. Sure, Lapidas and Miles proved to be good friends, but they never made the same connections to the other characters that the others did. The only person whose presence I question at the afterlife is Penny's, but I suppose she played a strong enough part in Desmond's life to make it believable.

Also missing from the afterlife: Michael, Walt, and Mr. Eko

It was pretty much confirmed that Michael is still wandering the island as a ghost of some kind, whispering.

Also, at the Jimmy Kimmel Live show afterward, Jimmy asks Matthew Fox (Jack) if the whole thing was a test for Jack, and Fox nodded the whole time and then said cryptically "It's possible." If this is true, then it could explain why the people present were there and why the others were missing.

Jimmy also suggested that everyone actually did crash in the sideways reality and that the purgatory was after the shaking on the plane, but Fox's facial expressions kind of support the idea that the entire sideways reality was "real", and that they didn't die during that... that Jack really died on the island. He also brings up something relating to religions in the real world.. He says something like: "There are a few of religions out there that believe that when you die, you have to go to a place and wait until you can remember your life and the events leading up to your death. Then, and only then, can you move on." That's pretty much what happened here.

All of the character-related questions were answered in a satisfactory way for me. The only question I have remaining are metaphysical:

Where did Jacob (then Hurley) get his powers?
How come when the Man in Black fell into the light, he turned into the Smoke Monster, but Desmond and Jack could go in there and not have anything happen?
Why was Walt so important?
How did Jacob leave the island to affect the lives of the Survivors?
How did he manage to make everyone run into each other throughout their lives?
Why die women who conceived on the island die during childbirth?
How come Locke could suddenly walk again?

Tamyrlin
05-25-2010, 10:57 AM
...the absurdity of a Science Fiction show that demonstrates a disrespect for its very nature. The writers/producers should be a bit chagrined for how loose and fast they played with their mythology. It's odd after six seasons to thumb their nose at their fans by saying "chalk is chalk" and "maybe we can make our own rules". They wanted all of the benefits of making crap up, without all of the responsibility of, at the very least, being consistent. If Jordan had done the same, we wouldn't spend nearly as much time discussing the series. Instead, we'd have people telling us - "didn't you know, he is writing a book about characters, not mysteries". :)

Davian93
05-25-2010, 11:25 AM
If Jordan had done the same, we wouldn't spend nearly as much time discussing the series.

The Eye of the World by David & Leigh Eddings

irerancincpkc
05-25-2010, 12:04 PM
How come when the Man in Black fell into the light, he turned into the Smoke Monster, but Desmond and Jack could go in there and not have anything happen?
I thought that Jack and Desmond weren't turned into anything cause they weren't evil... the Man in Black was, and so he kind of subverted the light... turning into the monster.

I do really hope that one of the deleted scenes on the blu ray is why Walt's special... :D

Ozymandias
05-25-2010, 12:19 PM
How come when the Man in Black fell into the light, he turned into the Smoke Monster, but Desmond and Jack could go in there and not have anything happen?

Well Desmond is resistant to electromagnetism, which might play a part. Also, the fact that Smokey already existed when they fell in might contribute to it. And as ire said, intent might have something to do with it.

How did Jacob leave the island to affect the lives of the Survivors?

Because he's a supernatural being? Why does this need to be explained. Ben sums it up pretty well when he tells Hurley that the rules about leaving the Island aren't those of the Island, but of the Guardian, so Jacob can presumably write himself a loophole in his own rules.


How come Locke could suddenly walk again?

When? At the end? Because he had surgery? Unless you mean why didn't he have severe muscular atrophy or some such? I guess the reason would have to be because that world was some sort of Purgatory half-dream world, where the rules of our world don't always apply.

JSUCamel
05-25-2010, 12:43 PM
I thought that Jack and Desmond weren't turned into anything cause they weren't evil... the Man in Black was, and so he kind of subverted the light... turning into the monster.

I do really hope that one of the deleted scenes on the blu ray is why Walt's special... :D

How was the Man in Black evil? All he wanted to do was leave the island, and until he turned into Smokey, he didn't do anything evil. He lied, sure. He wasn't sinless like Jacob, but he didn't kill anyone like Mother did.

JSUCamel
05-25-2010, 12:46 PM
Because he's a supernatural being? Why does this need to be explained. Ben sums it up pretty well when he tells Hurley that the rules about leaving the Island aren't those of the Island, but of the Guardian, so Jacob can presumably write himself a loophole in his own rules.

Well, of course, but I was more referring to how did Jacob (and before him, Mother) have supernatural powers. Jacob was born human, and Mother somehow had the power to prevent Jacob and his brother from killing each other, and she also had the power to make Jacob immortal and the new Guardian. My question is: where did that Power come from? Again, it's not a particularly important question, but it's something that I continue to ponder.


When? At the end? Because he had surgery? Unless you mean why didn't he have severe muscular atrophy or some such? I guess the reason would have to be because that world was some sort of Purgatory half-dream world, where the rules of our world don't always apply.

Um, more like in the first episode. The final episode was rather obvious -- you may think I'm obtuse, but I'm not that obtuse. Obviously, the original "miracle" was Jacob's doing, but again, the question is what power exists that can do that, and where did it come from?

Tamyrlin
05-25-2010, 01:12 PM
That is one of the stupid inconsistencies in that episode. The other - Jack is able to "make" Hurley Jacob, while the Magic was out of the island, while we know that the MIB doesn't have power, the island is falling into the ocean and Richard is aging...but Jack can still make Hurley Jacob...whatever.

JSUCamel
05-25-2010, 01:20 PM
That is one of the stupid inconsistencies in that episode. The other - Jack is able to "make" Hurley Jacob, while the Magic was out of the island, while we know that the MIB doesn't have power, the island is falling into the ocean and Richard is aging...but Jack can still make Hurley Jacob...whatever.

You know, you don't have to participate in this thread if you hated it so much.

But as to your inconsistencies, all of the "magic" you mentioned were directly related to Jacob and his rules. Once Jacob was gone (that fire burnt out), then his rules no longer applied. It's now Jack's set of rules. And then he passed it to Hurley.

Tamyrlin
05-25-2010, 02:13 PM
You know, you don't have to participate in this thread if you hated it so much.


Hated the Finale? I'm pretty sure I pointed out that I enjoyed much of the Finale, but I found their final explanations to be ridiculous and inconsistent...but apparently only Apologists are welcome?


But as to your inconsistencies, all of the "magic" you mentioned were directly related to Jacob and his rules. Once Jacob was gone (that fire burnt out), then his rules no longer applied. It's now Jack's set of rules. And then he passed it to Hurley.

So, you are saying that without the Magic of the Island (let's say they didn't put the plug back in), Hurley would still be able to "make his own rules" and he'd have some Magic? That seems highly unlikely, as the Island itself was falling into the ocean. Maybe Hurley or Jack should have just told the Island that it wasn't allowed to fall into the water and they could have added, "none of my friends can die", then we could have done away with all of that manufactured drama of sacrificial Jack, when it was clear to anyone watching that Desmond should have put the plug back in when Jack returned...of course, that would make it much more difficult for the last scene to be Jack on the ground looking up into the sky.

JSUCamel
05-25-2010, 04:09 PM
Hated the Finale? I'm pretty sure I pointed out that I enjoyed much of the Finale, but I found their final explanations to be ridiculous and inconsistent...but apparently only Apologists are welcome?

I dunno, but every post you've made in this thread has been about how awful it was, so.. hard to tell if you liked it when you haven't said anything positive about it.

So, you are saying that without the Magic of the Island (let's say they didn't put the plug back in), Hurley would still be able to "make his own rules" and he'd have some Magic?

I think if they hadn't put the cork back in, the island would have been destroyed, with Hurley along with it. Being protector doesn't make you indestructible, just immortal. Ben killed Jacob, after all.

Maybe Hurley or Jack should have just told the Island that it wasn't allowed to fall into the water and they could have added, "none of my friends can die", then we could have done away with all of that manufactured drama of sacrificial Jack

I don't think it works that way. Jacob didn't run the island, and he didn't bend it to his will. Jacob had a separate set of powers that allowed him to manipulate people, whether making them immortal/ageless or bringing them to the island from abroad. He didn't get to tell the island what to do -- if that were the case, he could have simply sealed up the cave with magic and nobody would ever enter ever ever ever, and then we could have done without the drama of sacrificial Jack.

Jacob, Jack and Hurley had special powers that allowed them to manipulate people, but nothing prevents people -- either them or Others -- from doing things to the island.

Firseal
05-26-2010, 12:27 AM
The Eye of the World by David & Leigh Eddings

Bite. Your. Goddang. Tongue.
I don't ever want to hear that sort of thing bandied about.

Also, Jemaclus - be fair. While Tamyrlin has demonstrated remarkable bias (Sorry Tam, but you have) both in predicting how he would take the finale and how he has reacted to it since, one of the first statements in his actual reaction post is that he enjoyed the finale up to about the last fifteen minutes. Implying that the other 135? Cool beans. He has a solid point with this, because if there are real alternate endings, rather than the nearly insulting crap shown on Jimmy Kimmel, that's about when they'll diverge. Maybe if that is so, there is an ending to Lost that exists that he'd find acceptable.

More, if we are saying we are watching this for the characters - and we are - then he is equally valid in saying he watched for the mechanics of the plot - which he did. That 60% of those mechanics were left to viewers to puzzle out, if not entirely unexplained, makes his position much less tenable, or enjoyable. On the other hand, Tam, I think that you just haven't put the pieces together entirely on some of the things you puzzle over, and given your current feelings to the show are unlikely to.

As to the Jack Jacobing Hurley (hoo boy, I can already imagine fanfics using that title...) while the magic was out, my understanding is that the guardian got portions of the power imbued in them. He didn't need the source to do anything because he already had some (All men have a bit of it, being the key sentence). Moreover, the monster didn't lose all his power either - or else he wouldn't have been alive, much less able to hold John Locke's form. That he lost enough of that power that he could only sustain his existance, that is, hold to what he had and no longer pull tricks like selective forms and immortality - which, you know, probably took more juice - makes perfect sense to me. More, both Jack and Hurley couldn't 'make their own rules' because aside from being guardians, and thus having whatever they did inside them (which, as Jack, Jacob and Mother dying all prove, doesn't include full immortality, though it may include immunity to temporal decay and thus ageless immortality) basically just let them make each other a bit more than they would otherwise be.

Or, in simplier terms - when Jacob used his 'rules' he was manipulating the Island's magic. When he was confering protection or guardianship, he not only was using his own power, but to be key - he had to be touching someone. Every time Jacob did something directly to a person, he was touching them or in the case of changing hands of power, giving them something to take into themselves.

So, what I am saying is, with the plug out, anything Jack or Hurley could do was limited to the reach of their hands. This is fully supported by every single thing in the episode and the show up to it.

irerancincpkc
05-26-2010, 12:44 AM
How was the Man in Black evil? All he wanted to do was leave the island, and until he turned into Smokey, he didn't do anything evil. He lied, sure. He wasn't sinless like Jacob, but he didn't kill anyone like Mother did.

He killed his Mother... the former protector of the island, of the light. If any action by a man could end up subverting the light, I'd think it would be that...

Mort
05-26-2010, 08:15 AM
He killed his Mother... the former protector of the island, of the light. If any action by a man could end up subverting the light, I'd think it would be that...

Funny though that the light would turn such a man into an even more powerful being. :)

Did we by the way get to know what the sickness really was in the end? I don't think so...

And for the record, I hated the last 10 minutes or so too :) They could have skipped the whole, "now we're walking into the sunset" moment entirely.

Collegehumor has made a video about Lost and the final (http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1936291).

JSUCamel
05-26-2010, 10:27 AM
He killed his Mother... the former protector of the island, of the light. If any action by a man could end up subverting the light, I'd think it would be that...

First, technically, she wasn't his mother. Second, the Mother isn't explicitly stated as the protector of the island; it is simply implied because she makes Jacob the protector. But it doesn't say she, herself, is the protector -- after all, who killed the Others, if not her? And if Mother killed the Others, then was it an evil thing for MiB to kill her?

irerancincpkc
05-26-2010, 11:17 AM
First, technically, she wasn't his mother. Second, the Mother isn't explicitly stated as the protector of the island; it is simply implied because she makes Jacob the protector. But it doesn't say she, herself, is the protector -- after all, who killed the Others, if not her? And if Mother killed the Others, then was it an evil thing for MiB to kill her?

Yeah, it was pretty clear, I think, she killed the Others, but there's no proof that the island considered her evil after that... and as for was it evil for MiB to kill her? I guess that's up to the island, or the light to decide. And judging on how he came out of that cave...

Tamyrlin
05-26-2010, 12:09 PM
Also, Jemaclus - be fair. While Tamyrlin has demonstrated remarkable bias (Sorry Tam, but you have) both in predicting how he would take the finale and how he has reacted to it since, one of the first statements in his actual reaction post is that he enjoyed the finale up to about the last fifteen minutes. Implying that the other 135? Cool beans.


I would say that my bias was developed over watching the entire season, as I began to dread more and more the small things that went unattended from a mechanics stand point. So, was I biased going into the Finale? Sure.


He has a solid point with this, because if there are real alternate endings, rather than the nearly insulting crap shown on Jimmy Kimmel, that's about when they'll diverge. Maybe if that is so, there is an ending to Lost that exists that he'd find acceptable.

More, if we are saying we are watching this for the characters - and we are - then he is equally valid in saying he watched for the mechanics of the plot - which he did. That 60% of those mechanics were left to viewers to puzzle out, if not entirely unexplained, makes his position much less tenable, or enjoyable. On the other hand, Tam, I think that you just haven't put the pieces together entirely on some of the things you puzzle over, and given your current feelings to the show are unlikely to.


Are there pieces of the puzzle that I haven't (or that haven't) been put together? I'm sure there are, since as we all know, my theorizing is never 100%. However, it is the disdain the writers/producers have for Mechanics explanations that bother me more, and the thumbing of their noses at fans that care for that part throughout the final few episodes...that drives me nuts. Am I unlikely to spend lots of time trying to dissect them after repeated assaults by the writers on those of us that care about this part of the plot? Yes. They chose not to address the Mechanics, so we are all flailing in the relative dark with our speculations.


As to the Jack Jacobing Hurley (hoo boy, I can already imagine fanfics using that title...) while the magic was out, my understanding is that the guardian got portions of the power imbued in them. He didn't need the source to do anything because he already had some (All men have a bit of it, being the key sentence). Moreover, the monster didn't lose all his power either - or else he wouldn't have been alive, much less able to hold John Locke's form. That he lost enough of that power that he could only sustain his existance, that is, hold to what he had and no longer pull tricks like selective forms and immortality - which, you know, probably took more juice - makes perfect sense to me. More, both Jack and Hurley couldn't 'make their own rules' because aside from being guardians, and thus having whatever they did inside them (which, as Jack, Jacob and Mother dying all prove, doesn't include full immortality, though it may include immunity to temporal decay and thus ageless immortality) basically just let them make each other a bit more than they would otherwise be.


Like I said, we have no concrete information about the nature of the MIB to be able to make confident statements as to his make-up. We have no idea what Locke's body coming back nor what Ben did to Jacob, afforded him. Look at Jacob after he was killed. He is able to grab his bag of ashes from Hurley, make a fire and destroy the ashes. So, was he a spirit, or did he have the ability to take corporeal form? As we are told about the MIB, he cannot take the form of another after becoming Fake Locke. So, whatever he did seems less like a trick of the island and something more permanent in taking Locke's form. Therefore, I wouldn't assume his new body would go away when the Island lost its power, just the powers/abilities it was affording him.

Nothing I saw in the show leads me to believe that Jacob's powers were anything but given by the Island. Can I accept that the transfer of protector-ship is formality? Sure, especially as Jack didn't go the whole Latin spiel in handing it over to Hurley, so apparently Latin is just Latin. Was it the water? Was it the "you are now like me"? Or was it his touch We don't have a clue. That's the problem. The writers were neither consistent nor forthcoming with the supposed Mechanics.


Or, in simplier terms - when Jacob used his 'rules' he was manipulating the Island's magic. When he was confering protection or guardianship, he not only was using his own power, but to be key - he had to be touching someone. Every time Jacob did something directly to a person, he was touching them or in the case of changing hands of power, giving them something to take into themselves.

So, what I am saying is, with the plug out, anything Jack or Hurley could do was limited to the reach of their hands. This is fully supported by every single thing in the episode and the show up to it.

I don't believe that Jacob could offer immortality with his touch if the Island were unplugged and sunk. Protecting the Heart of the Island is the entire purpose for such a person and that heart and Island would no longer be there to be protected. However, I do agree with your statement that they show us Jack bringing Hurley into the Protectorship fold with his hands, while the Island is unplugged, but I will hold you to that being the sole thing they can do when the Island is unplugged. :)

Firseal
05-26-2010, 05:19 PM
I would say that my bias was developed over watching the entire season, as I began to dread more and more the small things that went unattended from a mechanics stand point. So, was I biased going into the Finale? Sure.

Just so long as we all are aware. As historiography teaches (amongst other disciplines) no one is unbiased in a subject they study, teach, or observe so the best we can do is be aware of our baggage and try to work around it best we can. As to the points -

I gave up on the mechanics ever being explained in a rational sense right about mid-second season. The show had demonstrobly shown that it didn't want it's characters to function with any idea of what the hell they were doing, and giving us answers would have perforce done the same to them, limiting their screw-ups. It's like that line from stir of echoes where a guy who starts to see ghosts and other supernatural things is told that he's stuck with it, and that it will be like, 'being in a dark alley, and all you have is a small flashlight' (paraphrased). None of the characters had any idea at any given time beyond what they could see or reason out. For a mechanics driven show, even one that is fueled by technobabble, that would never fly, but if you can embrace it here, then it sort of works.

Of course, this is pretty close to the exact opposite of Theoryland's drive to quantify rules and make connections. Theoryland is like the Ways - some paths may be broken, others dark, but you know that everything does fit. Lost instead offered the mechanics equivilent of 'Here there be monsters' - an unknown, and though you could sail through it, you'd never have perfect maps, a working compass, or reliable guides.

Of course, this is where you quote them saying that answers will be given. To which I respond that they lied their rear ends off. Of course answers weren't coming, or at least not all of them. Enough to tell the story, yeah, but not everything, not even most things. Why did they lie? Who the hell would have watched if the tagline was, 'we're just gonna tell you enough that you can understand what's happening.'? Or better, 'Walt was a goddang red herring, shut up about him already'?

(Though privately I think that Walt was like Desmond, which explains the rapid waning interest in him once Desmond was out of the hatch. But that's me.)

But back to the metaphysics. Been awhile since you and me discused these. Reminds me of the T'A'R debates. Okay, Man in Black, versus Jacobite, in power catagories and why the uncorking popped him but left Jack still up.

Forgive the really bad double entendre, but I couldn't resist.

Again, our information on Smokey's brand new Locke-suit is strictly limited, as is our understanding of Guardianship powers. However, Smokey was 'born' when the MiB 'falls down da hole' to the source of the island's power (and from the bones down there, it is doubtful his real body ever came back up.). It is said his investure as Locke was special somehow, and he was a part of the island, thus able to tap into some of it's abilities.

Now, near as I can tell the difference between Guardian and monster is two-fold. One, the Guardian has power invested into a living body, and thus can exist separate from the island (as proved by Jacob leaving, and by Jack being able to do anything Guardianish with the cork out) whereas the Monster is a thing of the island, a concentration of its powers rather than an investure, without necessarily including a body but having the consciousness of a trapped and miserable man. That is, the Guardian can stand apart from the island - and without doing whatever the Monster did to get his Locke-suit the Monster could not. He is a creature of the Island the way the Black Wind is a create of the Ways, or the Heroes of the Horn stand in T'A'R between lives. Not only in the place, but of it.

Also, I am not sure how much Jacob could do by touch without the Island backing him, but it is implied he could do some, as I don't think that the touching he did of each of the canidates (anyone catch that blink-and-you'll-miss-it confirmation that Jin was the Kwon canidate, and not Sun in the preshow?) could have been backed continents away if he didn't have some juice of his own. Think of Guardianship as being given ability to lay on hands for minor powers, and system administrator of the Island for major powers. With the cork out, not much can be done. (The monster, of course, acting somewhere between computer virus, security system [as Danielle once said], and outright cancer within the island's system.)

Just my continued two cents

JSUCamel
05-26-2010, 05:43 PM
However, Smokey was 'born' when the MiB 'falls down da hole' to the source of the island's power (and from the bones down there, it is doubtful his real body ever came back up.).

His real body did come back up. Remember, Jacob laid him to rest next to Mother in the caves, where Jack, Kate and Locke discovered them however many hundreds of years later. "Our very own Adam and Eve..."

Firseal
05-26-2010, 05:56 PM
His real body did come back up. Remember, Jacob laid him to rest next to Mother in the caves, where Jack, Kate and Locke discovered them however many hundreds of years later. "Our very own Adam and Eve..."

Sigh. Right. So some other people fell down the hole and didn't get up. Five bucks says that is what happened to get Mother so damn homocidal about protecting the place.

Great Lord of the Dark
05-26-2010, 10:42 PM
I think Smokey predated Jacob and Man in Black. Smokey appeared as dead real mother, killed the tribe (we've seen him do it at the temple and Dharmaville, and how could mother do it?) so as to set Jacob against his brother. After Jacob falls down the hole, the smoke emerges, tosses his body aside, and takes his form, the better to influence Jacob. I suspect the producers have already dismissed this, but we know they lie, so there.

I also suspect there is nothing to the water ceremony, in Latin or otherwise. Crazy jungle mother is just as clueless as the rest of them, and is repeating some ceremony she learned that has no real power. The real power was in unplugging the island, just like Juliet's soda machine, which is a reboot of the system, and all previous 'rules' are wiped clean. Now Smoky can be hurt.

So how do the rules get made? Can only the leader make the rules? I think maybe the leader can make rules, if they are anointed as Island leader. But many characters were able to get the Island to do what they wanted, whether create fake Shannon, horses, working legs, deliver a surgeon, or Locke's Dad. So I doubt it's just the leader, or the Jacob who has power. There's a little bit in everyone?

I reckon there is no proof of anything I'm saying, or for the opposite point of view.

When they first showed a slave ship with dynamite in Season 1, I knew slavery had been abolished worldwide before dynamite was invented. Knowing they overlooked a simple anachronism, I stopped trying to make it fit so well together, and went along for the ride. I'm sure there are other inconsistencies in the official story, but I can live with that.

JSUCamel
05-26-2010, 10:50 PM
I think Smokey predated Jacob and Man in Black. Smokey appeared as dead real mother, killed the tribe (we've seen him do it at the temple and Dharmaville, and how could mother do it?) so as to set Jacob against his brother. After Jacob falls down the hole, the smoke emerges, tosses his body aside, and takes his form, the better to influence Jacob. I suspect the producers have already dismissed this, but we know they lie, so there.

I'm not sure I buy that Smokey was the dead mother. We have evidence of other non-Smokey dead people appearing to people on the island: Hugo could speak to the dead and many people, including Sawyer, saw Jacob's ghost running around.

fdsaf3
05-26-2010, 11:38 PM
The only question that really matters to me is who put the plug in the cave in the first place. Did no one else notice the hieroglyphics?

I have thoughts on the ending, but I'm way too tired to write them all down now. I actually have more of a problem with fans of the show who have shown themselves to be unwilling to admit the faults of the show than the finale.

irerancincpkc
05-27-2010, 09:41 AM
I read an interview with Michael Emerson (plays Ben Linus) that says on the DVD, there will be deleted scenes that explain Walt, and 10-12 minutes of Hugo and Ben on the island, after everything happened that could have been an ending, I guess... I'm excited. :D