I Won't Complain About Gas Prices Ever Again

[Davian93]

Fuel $18 a gallon in UK (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/devon/7456458.stm)

A question for our British TLers: How do you afford to drive? I have trouble affording $4 a gallon. At $18 I would ride a bike the 5 miles to work everyday.

EDIT: I realized my math is wrong...it is around $14 a gallon, not $18. Still really high though.

[Sarevok]

Uhm... I've been saying for ages that prices here are higher, but never got any response :)

[GonzoTheGreat]

If it's only 5 miles, then why not ride the bike anyway?
That's just twenty minutes, assuming there aren't too many traffic lights in the way.

[caladanbrood]

Aye, I've been wondering why all the americans complain about the petrol prices;) It's much higher in europe.

[Davian93]

If it's only 5 miles, then why not ride the bike anyway?
That's just twenty minutes, assuming there aren't too many traffic lights in the way.

Well, for one, I don't own a bike and it would be difficult to ride in my work clothes. Also, its really cold from Oct-Apr (i.e. snow on ground usually) which is why I don't own a bike. I agree that it wouldn't be bad at all by bike as it takes about 15 min to drive due to traffic. I only put about 100 miles a week on my car though so gas isnt too bad for me unless we go somewhere on the weekend that's far.

Ironically if I took the available mass transit (buses only) it would take me around 40-60 min to get to work.

[Davian93]

So how do Europeans afford it? I couldn't even begin to afford gas that high.

[Terez]

Riding a bike, especially in populated areas, can be near impossible - our roads often don't have safe places to ride one, and those unbikable roads are often the only option.

[caladanbrood]

So how do Europeans afford it? I couldn't even begin to afford gas that high.
I can afford it in term time because I only have to fill the tank up once, probably, but I get luck I guess - some people are starting to have serious problems with the price hikes, especially small commercial businesses, who simply can't afford to transport their goods anymore.

[JSUCamel]

One of the things that Europeans often don't understand about America is how freakin huge it is. You can take a train across Europe and cover several countries in a day. Sometimes it takes most of a day to cross one STATE, much less the entire country.

For us Americans, biking isn't usually an option unless we live in a city with plenty of bike trails and sidewalks available. Most of us live in the suburbs and are forced to drive downtown or to wherever our jobs are. Most of us don't live close enough to our jobs to bike there.

That's one reason why we're complaining so much. I've never been to Europe, but I would venture to guess that public transportation and biking and walking are MUCH more viable options in Europe than in the States. The distances between points of interest in the States are just too high to warrant anything other than driving cars. Even public transportation can't cover all the distances we need to go about our daily lives.

[Mort]

That's about twice the price for gas than in Sweden, and here it's expensive I think... UK really have it rough :/

[Weird Harold]

Well, for one, I don't own a bike and it would be difficult to ride in my work clothes. Also, its really cold from Oct-Apr (i.e. snow on ground usually) which is why I don't own a bike.

Not being able to ride in your work cltohes is a weak excuse. My son-in-law rides a fifteen mile commute in up to 100F temperatures and then changes clothes after he cools down and a quick wet-nap bath.

Snow can be a problem for cyclists, but youcan get spiked tires and a ski for the front fork to deal with snow.

OR: you can always switch to Skis (or dog sled) when the snow gets deep enough. :D

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Actually, WH, it may not be a viable excuse in Vegas, but in Houston it is. I'd have a 20-30 mile commute each way. Plus, since sweat isn't evaporated down here due to really high humidity and sea level altitude.... your hair would be soaking wet and you'd need a shower. A wet nap bath wouldn't cut it. LOL

[Davian93]

Not being able to ride in your work cltohes is a weak excuse. My son-in-law rides a fifteen mile commute in up to 100F temperatures and then changes clothes after he cools down and a quick wet-nap bath.

Snow can be a problem for cyclists, but youcan get spiked tires and a ski for the front fork to deal with snow.

OR: you can always switch to Skis (or dog sled) when the snow gets deep enough. :D

I never said it was a good excuse...but Gil does have a point on the humidity...its very humid on the east coast and I'd be soaked if I were to ride 5 mi to work in the morning. It also rains fairly often here in the spring/early summer so its hard to make a bike dependable transportation...the winter is more about it being 0 degrees out or colder which isnt fun to go outside to my car let alone ride a bike. I would quickly get frostbite on any exposed skin in the winter riding a bike.

[Ozymandias]

also, I'm fairly sure that gas prices in Europe in real terms is slightly lower... due to higher salaries and the weakness of the dollar.

[DeiwosTheSkyGod]

The public transportation we do have is not cheap, either, especially when you're paying for a car along with it. My dad has to pay a ton to commute to Boston every morning on the train; he only does it because traffic is so bad in the morning.

[Brita]

All that you say about distance and weather is true- especially in Northern Canada- but I have to say I drive to work everyday with hundreds of other cars, all of them only containing one person. I have been thinking about circulating a carpool invitation via Facebook to try and find other commuters that work close to me and have the same hours. But even that is hard, especially when you have kids to drop off at the sitters, early patients, late meetings etc.

[Ishara]

A couple of comments:

First, I just got back from Paris (hence my absence, in case you noticed) and I have to say that if other European cities are designed in a similar fashion, it is so easy to get around you almost don't need a car. Almost everything is within walking distance, the metro system is phenomenal (if a bit confusing), and there are bikes available for "rent" outside of most metro stops. There are bike lanes on every major street I saw and lots of people use them.

Our cities are simply not designed that way. They didn't have one "big box" store that I saw - you walk to the grocery store, the pharmacy, the metro stop for work...it jut makes more sense not to drive.

Second, no one ever said that cutting back on gas consumption was going to be (or should be) easy or convenient. My commute blows. Hard. But it's still cheaper and more conveneient than driving. The bf is finally beginning to stop with the senseless driving during errands. I don't know if it's because Carlos Mencia is right or not, but I always have a plan when I run errands and that plan includes the path of least resistance you know? Until recently, the bf has always been the type to go home in between, to go out more than once etc. I won't if I can help it.

I know folks who keep a spare change of clothes at the office, who have a gym membership close to work to shower if they get too sweaty on their way in. It's doable - just not necessarily convenient.

[John Snow]

If it's only 5 miles, then why not ride the bike anyway?
That's just twenty minutes, assuming there aren't too many traffic lights in the way.

It's only 5 miles from where I live to my office, and in the morning it takes me maybe 15 minutes - 7 minutes if I ignore stops and lights :D

But going home is 40 minutes with no problem, and that's in the hot part of the day. I eventually got tired of it and have quit biking to work for now. The reason for the difference is my office is at about 700 ft elevation, while home is at about 1500 ft.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I know folks who keep a spare change of clothes at the office, who have a gym membership close to work to shower if they get too sweaty on their way in. It's doable - just not necessarily convenient.

Actually, no, none of that is possible. I don't have a place to keep clothes. I don't have a nearby gym that costs less than $100/month. I don't have a safe way in to work that doesn't include my carpool, bus, or occasionally, my car.

And Ishara, you've been to Houston. You honestly want to commute in this weather?

[Ishara]

You know my post wasn't directed at you Gil, and actually it Houston that I was thinking of when I said it's much harder to find alternate routes to work here in North America.

Besides, you already mitigate gas prices by taking public transit and carpooling. :)

[Mort]

I don't have a nearby gym that costs less than $100/month.

WTF? Do they do the training for you for that price? :)

[Davian93]

WTF? Do they do the training for you for that price? :)

Mort, most gyms in the states are criminal rackets at best. Quitting one almost requires a lawyer considering the amount of roadblocks they put in the way.

[Mort]

Mort, most gyms in the states are criminal rackets at best. Quitting one almost requires a lawyer considering the amount of roadblocks they put in the way.

Fantastic.

[Crispin's Crispian]

I just started cycling to work last week. My bike is too small, so it's not altogether pleasant, but the ride itself is fine. It's between four and five miles, and with traffic it takes between 20 to 30 minutes.

But my town is bike-friendly (bike lanes all over the place, and trails), and in the summer it rarely gets into the 90s. I'm sweaty when I get to work, but I can clean off in the bathroom.

I can't speak for Houston, but I know in Syracuse it would have been harder. It's a smaller city, but in summer and winter the weather would make it very hard to do. Plus they don't have bike lanes and the people there drive like maniacs.


**ETA**
$100/month for a gym?! Geebus! We got to 24-Hour Fitness, and I pay $16/month to go four days a week (which I never do). My wife did a prepay thing, and got three years for like $850. That works out to just under $24/month...

[Yuri33]

A direct comparison between US and UK gas prices is not telling the whole story.

Keep in mind that it's specifically gas that costs so much in Europe because it is specifically taxed. Europe pays the same amount per barrel of oil that the rest of the world does. They just choose to tax a particular use of that oil in order to discourage its wasteful consumption (single driver in the car, etc.). Public transportation in Europe is second to none, and I don't think it costs an arm and a leg.

In the US, every increase in per barrel oil costs is directly felt across multiple sectors of the economy, specifically because fuel prices across the board are predominately linked to the oil cost. That's why we see things like food costs going up as well (never mind all the ethanol subsidies for corn farmers and stuff). In Europe, I don't believe this relationship is as clearly defined across the board because of the taxation patterns. No government in Europe is trying to curb eating :)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Ishara, I know you didn't mean me specifically. However, I do get tired of people who preach about the wonders of biking/walking to work without any clue what it means to be in a large, spread out city with zero trails, and very little public transportation.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Ishara, I know you didn't mean me specifically. However, I do get tired of people who preach about the wonders of biking/walking to work without any clue what it means to be in a large, spread out city with zero trails, and very little public transportation.
Yeah, but imagine the respect you'd get if you did do it in Houston!

;)

Seriously, though--we used to do morning runs in the summer in Syracuse, where it was maybe 80-degrees and 80% humidity, and I hated it! I can't imagine what Houston would be like... blech.

[caladanbrood]

I apologise, I hadn't read the article before, I was just making general comments. This price is not a genuine representation of the cost of petrol at the moment - £1.99 is ridiculous, and not a normal price. The extra problem at the moment that's causing that is a hauliers strike, so no fuel is being delivered to Shell garages - this has an effect on all garages in turn, ad the others have to cope with the increased demand.

Normal prices at the moment are around £1.15 per litre. I say normal, this is still perfectly ridiculous, we had a huge strike from hauliers over the price of fuel a few years ago when it hit £0.80...

[Ishara]

Yeah, Houston was nice and all, but readily accessible it wasn't! ;)

[Shock Lance]

I did some quick Maths (hope it's right) we pay about $6.30 per gallon. ($166 per liter) and they think it will hit $2 per liter buy the end of the year. Im just glad i work about 5 kms from home and can walk to work most days.

[Sei'taer]

Yeah, my 27 mile trek to work every day would be very inconvenient on a bike and the bus doesn't run all the way out here. Plus, having my son on the back and my wife riding along to would be far too tiring...I'd rather just take them in the car. And all of that is beside the fact that when I get to work I switch over to another vehicle and drive 100 to 150 miles a day in it.

[Frenzy]

Back in college i used to bike in 2 miles to the train station, then 1/2 mile to campus. Did that for three years. The second time i got hit by a vehicle (the second was a semi. the first was a bus) my mom kicked my brother out of my car and told me to drive in.

On my route in to work i drive thru an intersection that, last week, a ford explorer killed a 12-year-old girl. Driver was unlicensed, and the girl was so covered in road rash from being dragged under that she was barely recognizable.

i love biking, but i'm not a kid anymore. i have kids of my own, and i'm the breadwinner of the family. Gas prices where i live are always within the top 3 areas in the country for cost. i paid $4.51 at the ultra-cheapo place two days ago to gas up. i'll pay $10 a gallon to gas up if i have to, but i'm more likely to survive an accident in my car than on my bike.

Besides, as much as i like keeping Gilshalos employed, it's going to take expensive-as-fuck gasoline to see any real long-term behavior change away from petroleum.

[Yuri33]

Besides, as much as i like keeping Gilshalos employed, it's going to take expensive-as-fuck gasoline to see any real long-term behavior change away from petroleum.

AND and a strong commitment to build more cheap and extensive public transportation.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Besides, as much as i like keeping Gilshalos employed, it's going to take expensive-as-fuck gasoline to see any real long-term behavior change away from petroleum.
Of course, once that's a really serious enough problem, it will wreck your economy, which means that you can't afford the alternatives that could save you. Do you think you can borrow what you would need then?

[caladanbrood]

Follow-up: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/devon/7458425.stm

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Besides, as much as i like keeping Gilshalos employed, it's going to take expensive-as-fuck gasoline to see any real long-term behavior change away from petroleum.

I dunno if any of y'all have ever clued into this... but GAS ain't the only use for oil. Asphalt for roofs and roads, that lovely plastic toothbrush you used this morning. Even that lovely bike helmet you're gonna have to wear on your way to work.... They're all gonna keep me employed.

[Herid Fel]

Of course, once that's a really serious enough problem, it will wreck your economy, which means that you can't afford the alternatives that could save you. Do you think you can borrow what you would need then?

Once gas hits $6 a gallon, what you will see is environmental regulations rolled back and massive drilling starting all over the U.S.'s extensive offshore continental shelf (and other wilderness areas) supplies.

Mainstream 'sorta' green people only support these type of restrictions as long as it isn't economically painful.

It would take a few years to bring it all online, and new refineries would have to be built, but the economy wouldn't be wrecked - in fact it would strengthen the dollar because our foreign trade deficit (and linked current accouts deficit) would dramatically drop.

Then, after a few more decades, cold fusion. :D

[Gilshalos Sedai]

How optimistic, Fel. :)

[caladanbrood]

How optimistic, Fel. :)
Very optimistic. Economically viable commercial-scale fusion power is more than "a few decades" away...

And yes, I know that's not what you meant ;)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The Luddites have their claws firmly sunk into the flank of the Dems.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Gil, in the 1980s I heard "fusion power is a couple of decades away". In the 1950s, my father heard "fusion power is a couple of decades away". Both were from actual physicists doing research in that very area, in both cases it was when we visited their laboratories to see whether or not we wanted to spend some time doing research there. Now the researchers themselves have gotten a bit more realistic: when you talk to them they say something like "we hope we will get there, but we can't promise when".

There seems to be a very strong conservative tradition of thinking that if a problem really needs solving, then ordering a bunch of geeks to deal with it will produce results in the time demanded.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The Luddites comment was referring to the coastal drilling and increase in refinery capacity, not fusion.


My dad's a physicist, Gonzo. Even when people were claiming "a few decades away," I remember him scoffing and dismissing it as a pipe dream.

[Davian93]

From what I understand on the subject of Cold fusion (from having watched 'The Saint' several years ago) is that it already exists but that the Russians are keeping it under wraps.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

*snerk*

[Weird Harold]

I dunno if any of y'all have ever clued into this... but GAS ain't the only use for oil. Asphalt for roofs and roads, that lovely plastic toothbrush you used this morning. Even that lovely bike helmet you're gonna have to wear on your way to work.... They're all gonna keep me employed.

That's really the essential reason why I'm in favor of higher gas prices that make alternative fuels and energy sources competitive with fossil fuels: We have much better uses for petroleum and other fossil hydrocarbons than burning them.

Burning them is the only use we have for fossil hydrocarbons that isn't sustainable and recyclable. :(

[caladanbrood]

From what I understand on the subject of Cold fusion (from having watched 'The Saint' several years ago) is that it already exists but that the Russians are keeping it under wraps.
Yeah, them along with the oil companies hiding a car that can run on wishes and dreams alone...

They have very recently been able to heat plasma up to the sort of temperatures you find on the surface of the sun, for about a thousanth of a second. Now they just need to work out how to do it for much much longer on a vast scale and add in the pressure, without making it expensive, and we're sorted... 50 years at the very minimum I would think.

[GonzoTheGreat]

They have very recently been able to heat plasma up to the sort of temperatures you find on the surface of the sun, for about a thousanth of a second.The surface of the sun is easy. That's probably achievable in the inside of an old television set. The temperatures there are in the range of 6000 K (11,000 F) and the density is what we'd call a vacuum here.
But there is no nuclear fusion going on there, so achieving that, while eminently possible, is also rather pointless for this purpose.

What you need do is reach the temperature of the core of the sun. That's a lot higher: something like 10 to 15 million Kelvin (18-27 million F). And the density is higher too. Then, just to make it interesting, for useful nuclear fusion here on Earth we need higher temperatures still, because we don't have the neat volume and pressure available in the sun.

[caladanbrood]

That could be what it was then - I'm an engineer, not a physist ;)

[Davian93]

That could be what it was then - I'm an engineer, not a physist ;)

There's a simple solution to all of the United States energy needs:

http://www.hotpeachpages.net/images/canada.jpg

Nuff said.

[caladanbrood]

I don't think planning for simply the US' energy needs is a particularly good idea...

[Davian93]

I don't think planning for simply the US' energy needs is a particularly good idea...

Well its probably not a good idea for non-Americans...;)

[caladanbrood]

Ah, isolationism. It worked really well last time, I believe...

[Davian93]

Ah, isolationism. It worked really well last time, I believe...

Well, we'd still want to boss others around so it wouldn't be strict isolationism. Think of it as an expansion of Manifest Destiny...only northward instead of westward this time.

[caladanbrood]

I'll think of it as Isolationism. I at least know what that means:D

[Davian93]

I'll think of it as Isolationism. I at least know what that means:D

Manifest Destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I think we need to redirect manifest destiny to the moon. As long as they quit gutting NASA and stop relying on the Russians to ferry us to orbit, that is.

[Brita]

Think of it as an expansion of Manifest Destiny...only northward instead of westward this time.

Wait a minute....

[Terez]

You'll be safe if you move to Quebec. We don't want it. :D

[Davian93]

You'll be safe if you move to Quebec. We don't want it. :D

That's not neccessarily true...Montreal has some great restaurants and there are some nice wineries just north of the Border (the current one, not the projected post-invasion one).

[caladanbrood]

Manifest Destiny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_destiny)
That is fairly amusing:D And entirely irrelevant...

[Davian93]

That is fairly amusing:D And entirely irrelevant...

Of course it is...that's the fun part.

[Weird Harold]

I don't think planning for simply the US' energy needs is a particularly good idea...
Weaning the nation with one of the highest per capita energy budgets off of fossil fuels will at a minimum make all of the fossil fuels we're NOT using availabe to nations that aren't weaning themselves.

Sadly, the US is NOT the leader in non-fossil energy technology.

Japanese and German automakers have market ready hydrogen fueled vehicles right NOW using two radically different approaches -- Fuel Cell driven Hondas vs direct combustion/multi-fuel conventional BMW sedans.

Nevada has one of the best Solar generation plants in operation -- http://www.nevadasolarone.net/ -- but they had to hire a Spanish alternative energy company to build it.

Last but no least, Americans can only directly affect what America's energy policy is -- we can't legislate other countries' policy (as much as we'd like to ) -- so the only way we (americans) can "save the world" (this time) is by setting a good example and regaining the technological lead in alternative energy production.

(It was a bit difficult to type that last sentence with a straight face, btw)

America is huge potential market for European, Asian, and Antipodean alternative energy technology processes and we still -- in theory -- have the industrial capacity to supply ourselves and the rest of the world; all we need to do is get over our "not invented here" bias and start shopping for what works.

[JSUCamel]

all we need to do is get over our "not invented here" bias and start shopping for what works.

That's it? :rolleyes:

[Davian93]

That's it? :rolleyes:

yup...nothing major.

[Weird Harold]

That's it? :rolleyes:
Pretty much, yeah.

Scandanavia's hydrogen Highway features solar powered Hydrogen generators to fuel hydrogen powered cars on hydrogen from local water supplies.

The best wind turbines are made in Germany by Siemens. Siemens also makes solar cells.

Wave generators are off-the shelf technology in Norway.

About the only American contirbution to energy technology seems to be horixontal drilling for more fossil fuels. :rolleyes: