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View Full Version : I'm still clueless (stupid Demandred)


isamu237
05-28-2010, 03:08 PM
I was going to make a long, detailed post as this is my first time back to the boards in many months; but I'm really freaking tired.
So to make this short: Where the hell is Dem and what's he been up to?
I've been thinking on this for awhile and even made other posts about it. But even with a (relatively) recent re-read I still an only guess. Things to consider:
-Dem, Semi and Messy have formed a loose triumvirate.
-Dem comments that given where Semi and Messy are he wonders how much the DO has known for how long.

Presumably, Dem would be placed at a point analogous to the WT and Seanchan and at an early time in order to sow the most chaos. The only thing I can figure, especially in light of other recent threads, is that he's the man behind Taim. Either that or he's no where in particular and all over the place.
Thoughts? Comments? Eviscerations?

Enigma
05-28-2010, 07:42 PM
Demandred is somewhere where he is building his forces and Sammael seemed to think rightly or wrongly that he was somewhere in the South.

The potential places he might be are
1 - With the Borderland armies whispering poison into the ears of the rules
2- Among the blight building up the shadowspawn armies
3- Among the Sharans are are quite powerful and not really been seen but there is an outside chance that they may show up.
4- Secretly in Murandy where the king has in recent times started to build an army of his own, with the help of the Band of the Red Hand.

Neilbert
05-28-2010, 08:00 PM
There is the comment that Demandred had a hand in Rand's kidnapping, despite how it ended that lends strength to the idea that Demandred is involved with the Black Tower.

Also him ordering Asha'man.

And talking about having an army.

greatwolf
05-28-2010, 09:18 PM
-Dem, Semi and Messy have formed a loose triumvirate.
-Dem comments that given where Semi and Messy are he wonders how much the DO has known for how long.

Presumably, Dem would be placed at a point analogous to the WT and Seanchan and at an early time in order to sow the most chaos. The only thing I can figure, especially in light of other recent threads, is that he's the man behind Taim. Either that or he's no where in particular and all over the place.
Thoughts? Comments? Eviscerations?


"You were responsible for watching him, Osan'gar," she went on, her voice caressing every syllable. "You, and Demandred." Osan'gar flinched, flicking his tongue against his lips, and she laughed throatily. "My own charge is . . ." She pressed a thumb down on the edge of the chair as if pinning something and laughed again.

Obviously aprt of Demandred's assignment is Rand. The question is if there is anything else.

isamu237
05-28-2010, 11:05 PM
I don't know why I didn't think about the Blight. Demy is the big general for the Dark, the Blight grew quiet but we know something big is being marshaled and it would make sense for Dem to be back there while he also keeps tabs on Rand through his minions.
Setting up Dem vs. Lan? Squeeeee!

knightofround
05-31-2010, 05:04 PM
My theory of what Demandred has done is the following:

1. Demandred freed Taim, and influences the Black Tower.
2. Demandred uses the Band of the Red Hand to solidify rule with himself as king in Murandy.

Okay we'll deal with the first one first.

I think Demandred freed Taim. Why? We know from rumors (both Rand and Elaidia) that he was freed "by his followers". Then how come we haven't SEEN these followers in the entire series? We know that Rand is the most powerful male channeler in the world, and that Taim is slightly weaker. Rand only knew how to break out of a shield with LT's knowledge, Aiel, AND AS helping him. It is highly doubtful that Taim knew how to break free on his own. That means that somebody has to take care of the AS guarding him. The Aiel were struggling against the AS guarding Rand, so I would imagine it would be even more difficult for random "wetlanders" to do it. So it had to require 1. the forsaken 2. the black ajah.

Of the two, I think the forsaken is more likely. Mainly because of these unfounded "rumors" about how he escaped, which would point to compulsion. The Black Ajah is a very real possibity, and we know from Verin's notes that the Black Ajah is most heavily invested in the Red. That points to Mesanna.

However, there are other details about Taim that points to him being rescued by a male forsaken. For one, he has a LOT of knowledge about the OP and the AoL. The weaves displayed by the Asha'man totally blow both Rand's and the Seanchan's weaves out of the water. (Although not quite up to par with what Lews Therin can do) There's also his comments like "Travel", (uppercase intended, and it was the first time he saw a gateway) "so-called Aiel", angreal and sa'angreal, etc. For a long time these facts pointed towards Taim=Demandred, however RJ has affirmed on numerous ocassions that the two are not the same. But Taim had to get this knowledge from somewhere.

Out of all the male channelers, Rhavin and Demandred make the most sense. Sammael is a possibilty, but it didn't seem to be his style...plus, if he had the Asha'man backing him up, Illian would have ended up being a death trap for Rand instead of his plan to pull back to Shadar Logath. Aran'Gar/Osan'gar were busy being...well, dead, same as Ishmael. Asmodean became such a weakling that if he did it, Rand should have heard about it. (Remember that Rand did learn of Asmo's plan to make Coldain an opossing car'a'carn by giving him the dragon arms)

The argument for Rhavin being that one that freed Taim is that for one, Taim ended up in Andor, showing himself immediately after Rhavin died. And Rhavin has shown us that he's good at manipulating AS. The argument against him is that we have seen his POV, and there was nothing that hinted involvement with Taim. Also, its hard to justify why Rhavin would just keep Taim hanging around doing nothing for several months.

The argument for Demandred is much stronger. First, from what we know of Demandred's backstory, Taim character is waaay too similar to Demandred. Both "chaffed at being #2". Both are "almost, but not quite" as powerful as Rand. Both are well-renowned battle generals. We also know from the Asha'man attack on Rand that Demandred does have some influence over the Black Tower. Then there is also Taim's comment "Let the Lord of Chaos rule" which was originated from Demandred. I think all this points to Demandred being the more likely candidate for Taim's release.

Okay, now the second one. Demandred in Murandy. The main reason we deduce this is from Sammael's conversation with Graendal. Two things. First, Sammael places Demandred in the south. Second, Sammael states that "he always liked using proxies.

Sammael's first comment is a little confusing. The only place south of his nation, Illian, is the Sea Folk islands. However, they've played a very small role in the series, and noting has indicated they are being controlled by one of the forsaken. The only interpretation that makes sense is that when Sammael says "south" he's referring to either south of Arad Doman, or south as in the southern portion of the continent. We know from Rand that Andor, Cairhien, Tear, and Illian is considered "north and east". That leaves "South and West", so the possibilities are Arad Doman, Tarabon, Amadicia, Altara, Ghealdan, and Murandy. Toss out Arad Doman and Tarabon because they're probably "west"; plus Graedral was already in Arad Doman and Tarabon was a mess before all the forsaken were freed. Originally I thought Demandred was with the Seanchan, however now we know that Semirhage was behind them. That rules out Amadicia, and Altara. Shara is out because that's waaay to the east, beyond the Aiel Waste. Borderlands are out because, well, that's as north as you can get. And from what we've seen of the borderland rulers, they know nothing of Rand's whereabouts...if they had one of the forsaken amongst them, it would be pretty obvious. That leaves Ghealdan and Murandy.

Of the two, I think Murandy is more likely for a couple reasons. First, the Prophet made a huge mess of Ghealdan. And from his POV in TGS, we know that he genuinely believes in the Dragon as a savior, and the Shadow as an enemy. If the forsaken were truly at work in Ghealdan, one would think that someone would've gotten to the Prophet and controlled *him*. And Alliende hasn't shown any signs of Forsaken influence either.

Murandy also makes sense because of Sammael's comment that Demandred "likes using proxies". This could refer to the Asha'man or Seanchan. But it could also refer to the Band of the Red Hand, while Mat was off galivanting with AS...the timing was perfect. We also have Demandred's comment in TGS that "his rule is secure, and his army stands ready". We've had quite alot of Tuon's POV and its pretty obvious she's not a Darkfriend, and not influenced the way that Morgase was. That kinda throws out the Seanchan, plus the fact we know that turf was covered by Semihage anyway. The Asha'man would certain fill the "army" part of his comment, but certainly not the "rule" portion. That implies an actual nation, and the only nation that fits the timeframe is Murandy. Everything else was either conquered by Rand, conquered by the Seanchan, controlled by Graendral, made a mess by the Prophet, or was unchanged (ie borderlands). Illian is also adjacent to Murandy, which might explain why Sammael seems to know more of Demandred's plans than any other Forsaken.

So yeah. Rather wordy, but that's why I think Demandred is in Murandy and has influence over the Black Tower.

nameless
05-31-2010, 08:08 PM
Of the two, I think Murandy is more likely for a couple reasons. First, the Prophet made a huge mess of Ghealdan. And from his POV in TGS, we know that he genuinely believes in the Dragon as a savior, and the Shadow as an enemy. If the forsaken were truly at work in Ghealdan, one would think that someone would've gotten to the Prophet and controlled *him*. And Alliende hasn't shown any signs of Forsaken influence either.



What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.

Kimon
05-31-2010, 10:38 PM
What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.

KoD may provide a hint as to which Forsaken was puppeteering Masema. At the faux-Ansaline Gardens, Moridin discloses the possibility of either a re-emergence of Sammael, or else of someone pretending to be him. Semirhage asks if Moridin knows what orders the pseudo-Sammael gave, Moridin admits his ignorance, and then Demandred questions his intel on Sammael's death. And then, Aran'gar reveals this thought:

A remarkable admission coming from him. Or an attempt to hide being the one who had worn Sammael as a disguise. She would like very much to know who had begun playing her game. Or whether Sammael was alive.

One could argue that perhaps Aran'gar is merely referring to her disguise as Halima, but the statement would seem to imply more than that. Certainly impersonating the Dragon so as to give orders to his henchman, the Prophet, would seem better parallelism to someone impersonating Sammael so as to give orders to his henchmen, the Myrddraal.

There is of course another issue raised by this passage. Why exactly is Demandred so sure of the reliability of his intel about the demise of Sammael. We know that Demandred and Osan'gar were set to watch him. Osan'gar got his report of the incident from Rand, yet it stands to reason that Demandred got confirmation from someone other than Osan'gar. That person was presumably not Moridin. Is this just a red herring meant to sow suspicion of Bashere? Certainly Min's ominous viewing of him has never adequately been explained.

Terez
06-01-2010, 01:24 AM
Brandon confirmed on tour that someone was controlling Masema.

Weird Harold
06-01-2010, 04:45 AM
2. Demandred uses the Band of the Red Hand to solidify rule with himself as king in Murandy.

No.

Demandred has no secret identity (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/group.php?groupid=2)

Okay, now the second one. Demandred in Murandy. The main reason we deduce this is from Sammael's conversation with Graendal. Two things. First, Sammael places Demandred in the south. Second, Sammael states that "he always liked using proxies.

The only interpretation that makes sense is that when Sammael says "south" he's referring to either south of Arad Doman, or south as in the southern portion of the continent.

At the time Sammael made that statement about "events in the South" he controlled a good chunk of the "south" and the other big chunk of the "South," Tear, was massing an army on his border under the command of a "Proxy" with another large (and growing) force marching from Cairhein to reinforce them under the command of another "proxy." Also at around that time, The Seanchan were taking control of Tarabon, which was south of Sammael's location when he made the statement.

Sammael himself made overtures to Rand for a truce or even alliance until the rest of the Forsaken were dealt with; he would have no trouble believing Rand refused because Demandred had already made a deal with him.

The only thing going on in Murandy at that time was the Rebel Tower forming in Salidar; clearly the domain of Mesaana and Halima.

Pedron Niall had ordered Jaichim Carradin to stir up trouble in Altara and Murandy, but he'd only begun stirring trouble in Altara and I don't recall that he ever actually got around to Murandy. If he did, it was after Sammael's statement about Events to the South.

Of all the possible connotations of "south" at the time Sammael made that statement, Murandy has the fewest "events" for Sammael to be referring to.

So yeah. Rather wordy, but that's why I think Demandred is in Murandy and has influence over the Black Tower.

How much influence Demandred has over the BT is debateable, but it is undeniable that he does have some.

That he's in Murandy is, IMHO, doubtful -- he would almost certainly have to be masquerading as King Rhoedran for that situation to be "ready to march" in the service of the DO and he is the only Forsaken who has not appeared as anyone other than himself -- Moridin's appearance as "the wanderer" in Shadar Logoth may or may not count as a disguise, but he didn't introduce himself as Moridin either.

I think Sammael's comment about using "proxies" is a red herring because Sammael doesn't trust subordinates enough to give them a task and then let them do it; Demandred does.

nameless
06-01-2010, 11:16 AM
One could argue that perhaps Aran'gar is merely referring to her disguise as Halima, but the statement would seem to imply more than that. Certainly impersonating the Dragon so as to give orders to his henchman, the Prophet, would seem better parallelism to someone impersonating Sammael so as to give orders to his henchmen, the Myrddraal.



Someone that Slayer believed to be a male Forsaken put a hit out on Rand, which could be what Aran'gar is referring to. Later on in the same POV she expresses the intention to kill Rand against orders, after all.

Kimon
06-01-2010, 04:03 PM
Someone that Slayer believed to be a male Forsaken put a hit out on Rand, which could be what Aran'gar is referring to. Later on in the same POV she expresses the intention to kill Rand against orders, after all.

Agreed. This is also a strong possibility, especially as in that same scene at the Ansaline Gardens she offers this thoughtcrime:

She had no objections to killing these two if she happened to come across them, but Moridin was going to be terribly disappointed over Rand Al'Thor.

Certainly using a disguise so as to give orders to Luc/Isam to off the Dragon w/o actually leaving a clear trail for Moridin back to herself would fit with this. That does not however detract from the possibility of it also fitting with her turning the Prophet into a marionette. The Wise Ones with Perrin made clear that dreamwalkers had seen that Masema was a threat to the Dragon and had to be put down. Keep in mind that Masema had wanted to see Rand in person. Perhaps the pseudo-Dragon was not merely convincing him that Perrin was a DF, but also that the real Dragon was an imposter...

greatwolf
06-01-2010, 07:52 PM
If Arangar tried using a male disguise, it might fail and give her away since she's female (shoulders, hips, etc) yet if she tried impersonating a female, it wouldn't do to have someone notice she was using saidin. It would be a dead give away. So Arangar's impersonation might have to be strictly rationed. She may not want to turn up in places where both AS and ashaman are present for instance, in fact I think one on one encounters may be her/his best bet.

Kimon
06-01-2010, 08:02 PM
If Arangar tried using a male disguise, it might fail and give her away since she's female (shoulders, hips, etc) yet if she tried impersonating a female, it wouldn't do to have someone notice she was using saidin. It would be a dead give away. So Arangar's impersonation might have to be strictly rationed. She may not want to turn up in places where both AS and ashaman are present for instance, in fact I think one on one encounters may be her/his best bet.

Hence her failure to maintain her ruse at Shadar Logoth, and her pushing of Delana to have the healed Logain killed. And, of course, her forced flight from amongst the rebels after Jahar felt her weaving.

knightofround
06-03-2010, 04:10 PM
What makes you think no one was controlling the Prophet? His POV in tGS makes it very clear that someone was screwing with him through the use of an Illusion weave and it's up in the air as to whether his deteriorating memory is a natural result of his insanity or a symptom or repeated Compulsion.

I think Demandred is the mastermind behind the Prophet and King Roedran both. Masema didn't need much supervision, just the occasional "divine visitation" to keep him good and crazy, and by all accounts Roedran was a hopeless alcoholic so I doubt he'd have the mental fortitude to resist Compulsion the way Morgase did.

Hmm thats a good theory, never thought of that. But Demandred was one of the three great generals of the Shadow, the others being Sammael and Rahvin. Setting up the Prophet, and impersonating Rand seems a bit...not his style. But it would make sense under the framework he was doing it to become the best "chaos guy" for the DO...

No.

Demandred has no secret identity
Nice one-liner. Any proof to back it up? All that I've seen said by the authoris is that Demandred is that we haven't seen his alter-ego yet. And we certainly haven't seen Rhoedran yet. In fact, when Talmanes reveals Rhoedran's plan to Egwene in book 8, Egwene expresses surprise. Thinking something to the effect that she "didn't think Rhoedran was capable of making such a plan". Of course it could also be ZombieSammael, who knows.

I think you have a good point with "events to the south". For a long time I thought it was the Seanchan, however since we know Semi was there I think it would be unlikely Demi was there too...what with the whole "the forsaken don't trust each other, so they die" theme. Another possibility could be the Prophet. Yet another lead deals with the whiteclock-negotiated treaty between Andor, Murandy, and Illian...the talks were mentioned frequently in the series, but never its resolution, or *why* they were happening in the first place.

I still believe that freeing Taim/Murandy is the best guess of what he's been doing. Maybe mixing Masema in theretoo. We just have so little to go on since he's been such an enigma. We also his comment at the end of book 6 at Shayol Ghul "Have I not done well, my Lord?" and then the DO's laughter echoes in his head. There were only three significant events that happened in Book 6: the establishment of the Black Tower, Egwene becoming Rebel Amrylin, and Dumai Wells. I think Masema's declaration of war on the Whitecloaks was also towards the end of book 5, so its possible with the time-disconnect that was a factor too.

Sammael's statements plus the process of elimination are really all we have. What do you think he's been doing?

Bix
06-03-2010, 04:32 PM
I believe he's with Murandy, with Masema and the Whitecloaks (Asunawa?) as proxies. Just so much is happening in relation to those groups / countries together. Amadicia, Ghealdan, Murandy, Altara with mentions of Asha'man in Murandy as well, though it has to end somewhere Demandred can only stretch so far.

And if Danelle turns out to be Mesaana, "Danelle reports to Elaida and her Council that Pedron Niall is conducting negotiations trying to get Altara and Murandy to cede land to Illian." would be pretty funny in hindsight, if Demandred really is behind those groups.

Weird Harold
06-04-2010, 07:23 AM
Nice one-liner. Any proof to back it up?

Not really. Just a very strong suspicion that whenever RJ needed a belly laugh, he checked up on the latest Demandred theory.

The basic assumption behind most Demandred thories is that he must have an alter-ego because all of the other Forsaken have assumed a third age identity, and I think that assumption is false.

IF Demandred works through Proxies, or just uses a normal military mindset about chain-of-command he does NOT need an alter-ego and if he has no alter-ego, none of the theories about his location are plausible.

One of the things about Demandred don't factor into their theories is that Demandred thinks of himself as a General:

WH Ch 35
Abruptly the old man stopped and thrust out his hand straight toward Demandred, and Demandred found himself frantically fending off a net of saidin that struck his warding much harder than it should have, as hard as his own spinning would. That tottering old man was an Asha'man! And at least one of the women must be what passed for Aes Sedai in this time, and joined with the fellow in a ring.

He tried to launch his own attack and crush them, but the old man flung web after web at him without pause, and it was all he could do to fend them off. Those that struck trees enveloped them in flame or blew the trunks apart in splinters. He was a general, a great general, but generals did not have to fight alongside the men they commanded! Snarling, he began to retreat amid the crackle of burning trees and the thunder of explosions. Away from the key. Sooner or later the old man had to tire, and then he could take care of killing al'Thor. If one of the others did not get there first. He hoped fervently they did not.


Demandred might have been behind Masema's visions, but he would not have been directly responsible -- Masema was more Mesaana's style of Chaos anyway and the probable agents of his visions are part of Mesaana's minions.

Demandred might be responsible for Rhoedran's sudden urge to build a national army of Murandy and sudden interest in military matters in general but Murandy is in such a weak position strategically, it wouldn't rank as more than a secondary or diversionary force to a General building a base of power.

Wherever Demandred is, it isn't someplace we've spent any amount of time, he isn't hiding behind a third age persona, and he isn't building an army with no strategic line of retreat.

Personally I think he's behind the rumours of civil war in Shara and has completely overturned their culture to make the Ayyad the Rulers-in-name as well as Rulers-in-fact.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2010, 07:31 AM
"Kill him," Demandred had commanded later, but he had added that it would be better they died than let themselves be discovered again. By anyone, even the M'Hael, as if he did not know of Taim's order.Yet more circumstantial evidence that Demandred isn't using an alter-ego. If he had been, then appearing as himself would not be something he would need do in this way.

Weird Harold
06-04-2010, 09:48 AM
Yet more circumstantial evidence that Demandred isn't using an alter-ego. If he had been, then appearing as himself would not be something he would need do in this way.
Also, when combined with his failure to recognise Damer Flinn at the Cleansing, strongly suggestive that he has very little to do with the BT. If he were heavily involved withthe BT, Either Taim or Demandred would be redundant in giving orders to Gedwyn & Co. Given Demandred's "General" mindset (just) Taim would have given the orders if he worked for Demandred.

Terez
06-04-2010, 10:18 AM
Yup, I am in that faction. The question is 'Where is Demandred', or 'What is he up to?', not 'Who is Demandred'. Demandred is Demandred, and he's set up to be one of the biggest red herrings in the series. After all, 'almost' is the story of his life.

FelixPax
06-04-2010, 10:39 AM
Demandred is somewhere where he is building his forces and Sammael seemed to think rightly or wrongly that he was somewhere in the South.

The potential places he might be are
1 - With the Borderland armies whispering poison into the ears of the rules
2- Among the blight building up the shadowspawn armies
3- Among the Sharans are are quite powerful and not really been seen but there is an outside chance that they may show up.
4- Secretly in Murandy where the king has in recent times started to build an army of his own, with the help of the Band of the Red Hand.


5. Shadow Coast Mountains Stedding's Waygates with Shadowspawn army, ready to invasion Seanchan Empire at will. :)

knightofround
06-07-2010, 01:17 PM
I dunno, I don't think we're going to see shadowspawn gushing out of waygates. Some, sure, enough that Tuon received evidence of Trollocs in the south west...but not a boatload. A pretty huge chunk of Trollocs were always devoured by Machin Shin, and that was only enough to attack one *village* (albeit an uber village). Same went for Sammael's decoys in shadar logath.

Pushing massive numbers of trollocs through specific waygates just doesn't makes sense because Machin Shin would just sit there and feast. The only thing that seems to affect Machin Shin is Fain... I dunno, maybe that will be Fain's contribution to the Last Battle...although its a bit of a stretch imo.

Plus we know from TGS that there is a massive army gathering along the Blight, so it would seem logical that the Trolloc/Mydraal portion of the Last Battle would happen there. Who knows about that roaming pack of darkhounds though, they could devestate an entire city before someone shows up with balefire.

Another interesting thing to consider is that given the way that waygates work...what if other continents have waygates as well? They all seem to be located near stedding, but we know very little of ogier&steddings in Seanchan, and even less about those in Shara.

I wonder if the DO has some other way of transporting shadowspawn other than the ways. Mostly I was thinking about the trolloc attack on the manor.

Terez
06-07-2010, 03:01 PM
We know as per Ishamael that those Shadowspawn went through the Ways.

Weird Harold
06-07-2010, 04:43 PM
...what if other continents have waygates as well? They all seem to be located near stedding, ...

Steddings or Ogier groves where Ogier stonemasons worked on long-term projects.

I doubt that there are any waygates in Seanchan or any islands. It is implied that the Ogier had find a stedding before they could grow a waygate to it and there was not a great deal of ogier seafaring during and immediately after the Breaking when the Ways were being grown.

I don't think there is any particular reason the talisman of growing couldn't put a waygate on a different continent once the location was known, but the Westland and Seanchan Ogiers have been separated since the Breaking began and have actually evolved into two distinct and separate cultures, so I doubt that any intercontinental waygate were grown.

Enigma
06-07-2010, 04:47 PM
The Seanchan continent would seem to be a terrible place to hide an army of Shadowspawn. While it had a larger land mass the impression I had from the books was that the empire's population was a lot bigger that in the Westlands with very few if any abandoned areas.

Up until very recently any Shadowspawn army would be in a lot of trouble as soon as it was detected with the full might of a very large well trained army backed up by combat channelers comming down on it.

nameless
06-07-2010, 05:13 PM
I dunno, I don't think we're going to see shadowspawn gushing out of waygates. Some, sure, enough that Tuon received evidence of Trollocs in the south west...but not a boatload. A pretty huge chunk of Trollocs were always devoured by Machin Shin, and that was only enough to attack one *village* (albeit an uber village). Same went for Sammael's decoys in shadar logath.



A lot of people think that Fain's the one who sent the Trollocs who attacked Tylee and co, in which case they wouldn't have had to worry about Machin Shin. The assumption is that because the Shadow was in a much better position back when the Seanchan thought Trollocs were just fairy tales, the raid on Seanchan territory was actually incredibly counterproductive and therefore not likely to have been ordered by one of the Forsaken.

Weird Harold
06-08-2010, 12:14 PM
A lot of people think that Fain's the one who sent the Trollocs who attacked Tylee and co, in which case they wouldn't have had to worry about Machin Shin. The assumption is that because the Shadow was in a much better position back when the Seanchan thought Trollocs were just fairy tales, the raid on Seanchan territory was actually incredibly counterproductive and therefore not likely to have been ordered by one of the Forsaken.
I'd be surprised if the attack on BG Tyree's forces was intentional; the Trollocs were likely headed for an attack on a location Rand was expected to be in when they arived. That would fit with Fain ordering them (and protecting them) through the Ways and explain away the strategic blunder of exposing the Seanchan to Trollocs and Fades before absolutely necessary.

Terez
06-08-2010, 01:14 PM
Yay, I'm not the only one that thinks Fain sent them. Where are you hiding when I have these arguments, WH? :( Do you also think he sent the ones that attacked Algarin's manor?

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2010, 04:16 PM
Do you also think he sent the ones that attacked Algarin's manor?Obviously, that was Asmodean, posing as Sammael.

Terez
06-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Nobody asked for your two cents.

GonzoTheGreat
06-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Fortunately this opinion wasn't as expensive as that.

Weird Harold
06-08-2010, 07:50 PM
Yay, I'm not the only one that thinks Fain sent them. Where are you hiding when I have these arguments, WH? :( Do you also think he sent the ones that attacked Algarin's manor?
I don't think he did, but I can't think of anyone else who would have a motive for sending that many trollocs that far south.

I have to wonder exactly how he managed to impersonate Sammael, but both groups of Trollocs fit Fain's motives and goals more than anyone else's.

FelixPax
06-08-2010, 11:13 PM
I'd be surprised if the attack on BG Tyree's forces was intentional; the Trollocs were likely headed for an attack on a location Rand was expected to be in when they arived. That would fit with Fain ordering them (and protecting them) through the Ways and explain away the strategic blunder of exposing the Seanchan to Trollocs and Fades before absolutely necessary.

There were not any Myrddraal's in that party of Trollocs, which Tyree's military force came across in Altara. If there was, I'd have expected Tyree to show Fortuona a head of one of them in Ebou Dar as proof.

That sneak attack on Tyree is quite similar to what occurred in Two Rivers during Slayer's attacks, a party of Trollocs broke off from the main group of Trollocs and attacked early.

Terez
06-08-2010, 11:26 PM
I don't think he did, but I can't think of anyone else who would have a motive for sending that many trollocs that far south.

I have to wonder exactly how he managed to impersonate Sammael, but both groups of Trollocs fit Fain's motives and goals more than anyone else's.
Well, aside from the fact that he needn't have actually impersonated Sammael (Ishamael might have had some reason to lie), then there is also a potential that Fain has some power of Illusion (Mordeth did; he was able to create the illusion of a body when he didn't have one), and though the illusion of Torval and Gedwyn in Far Madding might have been ghosts, it would be the first time we've seen a ghost of someone that just died. Also, the Dark One was not able to transmigrate Sammael because Mashadar corrupted his soul, so there might be some connection there. Finally, the Fade(s) might have lied to Moridin.

FelixPax
06-09-2010, 02:13 AM
Yay, I'm not the only one that thinks Fain sent them. Where are you hiding when I have these arguments, WH? :( Do you also think he sent the ones that attacked Algarin's manor?

Padan Fain Mordeth did not send Trollocs to either place--Algarin Manor nor against Tylee.


Padan Fain Mordeth is most likely in Murandy, sitting on the right side of King Roedran Almaric do Arreloa a'Naloy and while Lady Alteima formerly of Tear sits to the left side of King Roedran.

Alteima's the one who likely put a Roedran spy into the Caemlyn Palace, as well, which Elayne's First Maid learned of.


Padan Fain would not go up to the Blight to recruit +100,000 Trollocs, Myrddraal from all main Trolloc clans plus other minor Trollocs clans. Nor does Lady Alteima want to live anywhere, where Rand holds controls of and/or have allies--Cairhien, Tear, Andor, Illian. Murandy was the closest place for Lady Alteima to flee to, and begin to plot.

Neilbert
06-09-2010, 04:35 AM
Padan Fain would not go up to the Blight to recruit +100,000 Trollocs, Myrddraal from all main Trolloc clans plus other minor Trollocs clans.

Nobody has ever proposed that he would have done either of the bold things, but shine on you crazy diamond you.

Enigma
06-09-2010, 03:28 PM
How could Fain order any large scale shadowspawn attack? From what we have seen in the Two Rivers he gained control over the trollocks by breaking a fade.

If he want's to repeat that he has serious problems. Unless he stumbles over a fade he would have to go out and find one and we were told in several places that shadowspan incursions past the blight were being kept to a minimum pending the last battle.

Is Fain suppost to go into the blight? The last time I checked he was a wanted man amoung the Shadow so he would be as popular there as say Rand who the Dark One and Moridin at least want to keep alive for the moment.

If Fain does get a fade and break its will can one fade command so many shadowspawn? I was under the impression that a fade is normally in command of say 200 trollocks though they can command smaller groups. If they try to control larger groups they have problems as the trollocks are hard to control.

Does this mean Fain would have then to get his new pet fade to introduce him to more fades so that he can break them.

If a fade can manage 200 trollocks he would have to capture and break near 500 fades to control 100,000 trollocks. How long would it take to break 500 fades?

Plan B might be to impersonate a forsaken. That might be within the range of Fade's abilities but while that might work fine against dark friends even Slayer would it work against shadowspawn. The reason they obey the forsaken is not because they are Shadow Generals but the mark the forsaken receive allows them to command shadowspawn. This was made very clear by RJ in several Q&A sessions. Could fade also fake this ability? May be he could but his evil is not the same as the Shadow if from the cleansing of the taint we have seen that the power Fain came from does not react well to the Dark One's power.

I think it might be more likely that the trollocks that the Seanchan ran into might have been sent to kill Fain after the darkhounds failed, assuming that it was Fain the darkhounds were after. If it was someone else they were after perhaps the trolloks were after this target as well.

Saying that sending trollocks in numbers to kill Fain or anyone else seems a bit like using a sledgehammer to crack a nut.

Terez
06-09-2010, 03:54 PM
Enigma, your entire argument seems to rest on the assumption that it is necessary for each Fade to be individually ordered by a Forsaken. Seeing as how it's highly unlikely that a Fade has ever been turned before, it doesn't seem likely that it is necessary for each Fade to be ordered individually. And also, if anyone was going to be impersonating Sammael, it would be Fain rather than the Fade. There's nothing to indicate that Fades are capable of it.

Neilbert
06-09-2010, 04:04 PM
Also, which seems more likely to you?

A Forsaken rounding up each individual Fade that he wants to send into battle, and giving them all direct orders.

Or.

A Forsaken giving orders to a single, or small group of Fades, and telling them to round up however many Fades are needed.

Cus the Forsaken don't exactly seem like the micromanaging type.

Spasmodean
06-09-2010, 06:42 PM
Yay, I'm not the only one that thinks Fain sent them. Where are you hiding when I have these arguments, WH? :( Do you also think he sent the ones that attacked Algarin's manor?

The Forsaken tea party where they discuss this event - it seemed to overly suggest that Demandred had sent them with his talk of how Sammael liked all eyes on him etc.

Demandred out of all the Forsaken seems particularly irked at Moridin's rise to Nae'blis, we all know he has a thing for being Mr 2nd Best and I wouldn't be surprised if he had done it just because Moridin was focused on gathering the Shadowspawn in the Blight.

Terez
06-09-2010, 07:42 PM
The Forsaken tea party where they discuss this event - it seemed to overly suggest that Demandred had sent them with his talk of how Sammael liked all eyes on him etc.
To me, Demandred's odd behavior at that meeting is screaming 'red herring', along with Graendal's suspicion that Demandred is with the Borderlanders. It might fit in Graendal's opinion, but we know something she doesn't know: he's not posing as one of the rulers.

Demandred wouldn't be stupid enough to think that the attack would succeed; he knows about Rand's toys. Only Fain is crazy enough to waste 100,000 Shadowspawn on the venture; as a matter of fact, wasting the Shadow's resources is right up Fain's alley.

greatwolf
06-10-2010, 08:28 AM
I'd be surprised if the attack on BG Tyree's forces was intentional; the Trollocs were likely headed for an attack on a location Rand was expected to be in when they arived. That would fit with Fain ordering them (and protecting them) through the Ways and explain away the strategic blunder of exposing the Seanchan to Trollocs and Fades before absolutely necessary.

I tend to agree that the trollocs were probably heading elsewhere and Tylee was not the intended target. Also, from the surprised reactions at Tuon's audience, it seems Tylee did not inform high command of her movements hence the shadow might not have known that force would be there. It fits with the little we know of the shadow's plans in tGS.

nameless
06-10-2010, 06:09 PM
We know as of tGS that all the Chosen are forbidden to orchestrate attacks on their own and all Trollocs and Myrdraal are restricted to the Blight. If the group that attacked Tylee was sent by the Shadow then someone was disobeying orders. Off the top of my head I can't think of any objectives in Seanchan territory that would be worth the risk of exposure, which leads me to believe that either A) they were going somewhere else but Seanchan territory had the only unguarded Waygates so they had to start there or B) Fain sent them just to piss off the Dark One.

Enigma
06-10-2010, 06:57 PM
Enigma, your entire argument seems to rest on the assumption that it is necessary for each Fade to be individually ordered by a Forsaken. Seeing as how it's highly unlikely that a Fade has ever been turned before, it doesn't seem likely that it is necessary for each Fade to be ordered individually. And also, if anyone was going to be impersonating Sammael, it would be Fain rather than the Fade. There's nothing to indicate that Fades are capable of it.

I agree that normally Forssaken X would not have to give orders to every fade in the group he was gathering but I am assuming there is some sort of hierarchy in the shadow forces below the forsaken. Now if Fain can capture and break say a General officer Fade thats great and the captive can give out orders to those down the chain of command and no one should ask too many quesions. Now you have a small army to play with.

On the other hand do high ranking commanders just wander around where Fain can get access to them? I would have though it more likely that any fade Fain would stumble on would be a a lot lower in the chain of command if its out doing grunt work.

Put it this way, I probably have a lot better a chance of getting my hands on say a Lieutenant or Captain in the US army that a General. Now if I can capture and brainwash a two star general chances are I can organise an army to do what I want.

If I am stuck working with a captain he/she can give orders to some people under them but I doubt if they can have an entire army command march to my orders because sooner or later a major or colonel will ask my captain what is going on and why were they not told about it and demand to see a copy of the orders or get confirmation if they were verbal orders.

Now I doubt that the Shadow is an organised as a modern western military but to be effective they must have some sort of chain of command otherwise they could never have any operations using a few hundred or a thousand or so shadowspawn.

Terez
06-10-2010, 08:02 PM
I also think that the idea of a hierarchy among the Fades is completely unfounded. If they are all equally skilled and loyal, as seems to be the case, then a hierarchy would make no sense. The hierarchy is simple: Trollocs answer to Fades, and Fades answer to the Dreadlords and Forsaken.

Weird Harold
06-10-2010, 10:31 PM
I also think that the idea of a hierarchy among the Fades is completely unfounded. If they are all equally skilled and loyal, as seems to be the case, then a hierarchy would make no sense. The hierarchy is simple: Trollocs answer to Fades, and Fades answer to the Dreadlords and Forsaken.
forces on the scale of the attack on Rand in Tear simply can't be controlled with that flat of a hierachy. It may not be as formally defined as a conventional military chain of command, but there have to be over-fades controlling under-fades. If there aren't then there simply isn't enough physical space around one dreadlord or forsaken to permit effective control of more than one-hundred-thousand trollocs or so.

Perhaps all of the hierarchy for very large forces will be among the Dreadlords, but the Shadow doesn't have enough known dreadlords (aka Taim's cronies and what's left of the BA) to permit forces in the millions with any manageable sort of hierarchy.

nameless
06-10-2010, 10:55 PM
We've been told that Fades are all identical, except for Shaidar Haran. Maybe the organization is a function of which Trolloc clan they're associated with? Also, I'm not sure Trolloc tactics require the same kind of organization as human armies. As far as we've seen the only orders Mydraal actually have to give are "wait," "charge now," and "if you screw this up I'll kill you."

Terez
06-10-2010, 11:12 PM
forces on the scale of the attack on Rand in Tear simply can't be controlled with that flat of a hierachy. It may not be as formally defined as a conventional military chain of command, but there have to be over-fades controlling under-fades. If there aren't then there simply isn't enough physical space around one dreadlord or forsaken to permit effective control of more than one-hundred-thousand trollocs or so.
Sure, but I doubt it matters who plays general and who plays grunt officer with the Fades, since they have no way of really distinguishing themselves in service, which means it's not really a hierarchy...just a list of jobs to do when it comes time to attack. And from what I was able to see, there wasn't much that was organized about the attack on the Stone at all, besides their manner of sneaking in the Stone itself. The attack on Algarin's was about as simple as military strategy gets, don't you think? They just surrounded the building and ran for it. There was no real strategy there, no need for a hierarchy of command.

Weird Harold
06-11-2010, 12:48 PM
... Also, I'm not sure Trolloc tactics require the same kind of organization as human armies. As far as we've seen the only orders Mydraal actually have to give are "wait," "charge now," and "if you screw this up I'll kill you."

That "flat" sort organization works for relatively small armies, but how many individuals can you give commands to at once?

Conventional military chain-of-command organization came about because of the problem of passing orders reliably to large numbers of fighters. Even with the link between Myrdraal and Trolloc to form fists, and with Dreadlords filling the command positions, the numbers expected at T'G are simply to big for effective command and control without some intermediary level of command.

In time it was discovered that a Myrddraal could link with a number of Trollocs, completely overriding their bestial nature and taking control of their minds and wills, to create a deadly, well-disciplined fighting force almost as effective as was originally intended. Unfortunately, the Myrddraal was then the weak link. If it was killed, the Trollocs sharing the link died with it.

Together Trollocs and Myrddraal made a fearsome foe. Organized in fighting units called fists, of between one and two hundred Trollocs, usually under the command of a Myrddraal, they swept down on many unsuspecting regions, wreaking destruction on anything that stood before them. To a population new to war, the Trolloc armies seemed the personification of the Dark One himself.


In the AOL, and apparently during the Trolloc Wars, there were enough dreadlords (male and female) to fill all of the command positions, but unless the Shadow has a bunch of dreadlords we know nothing about *cough*ayyad*cough* they simply don't have enough "officers" to command as many trollocs as they have used in the past.

knightofround
06-11-2010, 02:16 PM
Well, I could be wrong about this...but wasn't it Slayer that sent the Trollocs to two rivers? He's not a dreadlord or a forsaken. That's where Fain got his first pet Mydraal; in TGH he killed his in order to convince the trollocs he meant business. I have no idea how Fain would get his hands on 100,000 trollocs+mydraal, even if he's been off-screen for awhile.

We've seen absolutely no proof of hierarcy within shadowspawn. None whatsoever. Which is why they're only really active every couple hundred years or so when the top-of-the-seal forsaken were let out and sucked back in. And why the forsaken are so intimidated by Shaidar Haran.

I don't buy into the argument "they must have the hierarchy, because all modern armies do". That's certainly rational reasoning. But these are freaking *shadowspawn*. They are driven by desire and fear, not power, not ambition, not morals. Even the Mydraal's psychology is closer to an animal than a human. You might have a leader of the pack, but you don't have chains of command. I'm pretty sure Trolloc -> Mydraal -> Uber Human is as far as it goes.

knightofround
06-11-2010, 02:31 PM
In the AOL, and apparently during the Trolloc Wars, there were enough dreadlords (male and female) to fill all of the command positions, but unless the Shadow has a bunch of dreadlords we know nothing about *cough*ayyad*cough* they simply don't have enough "officers" to command as many trollocs as they have used in the past.

Yeah I've often wondered about the dreadlords myself. The ayyad is good call. I also think we're going to see others within the "standing aside Aes Sedai", Taim's faction within the Asha'man (even if Taim himself is not a DF it seems a likely place they'd end up), as well as Aiel male channelers who head to the blight.

I'm rather puzzled as to why there doesn't seem to be many DF channelers within the Seanchan. It should be very easy to set damne vs. sul'dam when the TP is involved....just like we saw with Semihage

Terez
06-11-2010, 03:14 PM
I'm rather puzzled as to why there doesn't seem to be many DF channelers within the Seanchan. It should be very easy to set damne vs. sul'dam when the TP is involved....just like we saw with Semihage
There are no Darkfriends among the damane simply because they don't see damane as being fully human. There are few among the sul'dam probably because they can rise no higher in life than where they already are, except to be der'sul'dam. They can't actually channel, so they're useless from a Dreadlord perspective.

Enigma
06-11-2010, 04:15 PM
A few things might account for there being fewer darkfriends among the Seanchan. Firstly their society seems to be built on a place for everyone and everyone in his/her place with some possibility for advancement. That sort of mindset might make people less ambitious or more conservative in their approach to life.

Secondly among the Seanchan there seem to be a lot of seekers and listeners etc. It's not a police state in the modern sense but its people are under a lot more supervision that in the Westlands so darkfriend activity might be very hard to hide unless you are a certain rank in society.

For the likes of Suroth she has a certain amount of freedom to come and go as she pleases (at least she did) someone lower down might be faced with too many quesions if they try to slip away to meet up with other people in deserted places etc.

Back to how the Shadow forces are commanded I take the point that all fades are identical except for SH and if you have a rading force of say 500 that might require 3 fades to work togehter to a common goal. That should be possible.

If you have 10,000 trollocks that could require 50fades. I can seem them all at a briefing getting the battle plan and everyone knowing what they have to do but how often has Mat said that no plan of battle survives contact with the enemy. If there is not some sort of supervisor Fade how will the 50 coordinate and reacting to changing circumstances.

During the AoL RJ said that the forsaken numbered in the thousands if not millions so there would have been plenty of channelers to fill the ranks from Lieutenant all the way to Colonel. In the Trollock wars there were dreadlords and in between there were no large scale shadow armies on the march.

That has changed and the force that attacked Rand was 100,000. Just getting all the forces lined up and facing in the same direction to charge at the same time would require some orginisation so even if we have not seen these command level fades there must be some command structure otherwise the Shadow could never field an coherent army over 1,000 trollocks.

Neilbert
06-11-2010, 10:18 PM
That "flat" sort organization works for relatively small armies, but how many individuals can you give commands to at once?

Well, Starcraft 2 tells me a lot. Shadowspawn seem to mostly rely on zerg rush tactics, and when playing as zerg I would spend most of my time micromanaging my base. When it came to battle I would just select my army and attack move them to the enemies base, then immediately start building the second wave. You really don't need much coordination when your whole strategy is overwhelm them with numbers.

Of course sometimes my zerglings would eff it up by getting far ahead of everyone else... but they cost like nothing and can be replaced in 10 seconds. Kinda like trollocs.

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 12:47 PM
Well, I could be wrong about this...but wasn't it Slayer that sent the Trollocs to two rivers?

Sort of. Slayer was sent to the Two Rivers to eliminate Padan Fain and was provided access to the trollocs by his employer -- who probably was a forsaken. That's not quite the same as being able to grab a few hundred thousand any time he feels like it.

Isam was raised among/by Trollocs, so Slayer probably has some ability to control them independent of the Forsaken, but there's way to quantify how much ability he has in that regard.

We've seen absolutely no proof of hierarcy within shadowspawn. None whatsoever.

"Absence of proof is not proof of absence."

We haven't seen anything other than the hordes advancing through Tarwin's Gap in tEotW that would require a hierarchy of command to be exposed. We haven't seen anything really that requires more than basic cooperation between the Myddraal linked to several fists of trollocs.

I don't buy into the argument "they must have the hierarchy, because all modern armies do". That's certainly rational reasoning. But these are freaking *shadowspawn*. They are driven by desire and fear, not power, not ambition, not morals.

You have it backwards: Modern armies have hierachy of command for the same reasons Trolloc hordes ned one.

Chain-of-command or Hierachal Organization isn't about "driving" or motivating the troops, it is about passing instructions from the one making decisions to those carrying out the decisions and the physical limitations of how many people a pre-tech commander can talk to at once.

We know the numbers of Taim's Cronies and the numbers of BA still at large -- in rough terms at least -- and it comes to less than a thousand "dreadlords" we know about. I just don't think there are enough known dreadlords to allow the discrimination against Myddraal to continue to keep them as no more than "platoon leaders;" some myddraal will have to finally be let into the officer ranks. :D

Neilbert
06-12-2010, 04:37 PM
Chain-of-command or Hierachal Organization isn't about "driving" or motivating the troops, it is about passing instructions from the one making decisions to those carrying out the decisions and the physical limitations of how many people a pre-tech commander can talk to at once.

How does the existence of shadoweyes fit into this? Having a crow or something that can fly between Myrdraal relaying information isn't exactly pre-tech.

Not to mention they are all identical, so predicting each other's reactions and whatever would be a lot easier. Regardless of how it is carried out, Myrdraal would need less communication than a human army for that reason alone.

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 08:29 PM
How does the existence of shadoweyes fit into this? Having a crow or something that can fly between Myrdraal relaying information isn't exactly pre-tech.

Not to mention they are all identical, so predicting each other's reactions and whatever would be a lot easier. Regardless of how it is carried out, Myrdraal would need less communication than a human army for that reason alone.
If ravens and rats can be used that way, it would just shift the numbers problem to the ravens and rats instead of myrddraal -- as well as losing the pluss of the shadow-walking ability of the myrddraal.

The Shadow won't ever need as many levels of command and control as human armies do -- it takes at least three officers and eight to ten NCOs to manage 200 troops, but only one Myrddraal to link and control that many trollocs. But there is a point where it becomes impossible to pass orders to large numbers of troops without some sort of distributed command system and a continent wide, total mobilization of Trollocs is almost certainly larger than the know command elements available will be able to handle.

Terez
06-12-2010, 08:41 PM
I bet they have Myrddraal meetings before attacks, and some sort of system in place, but it need not be hierarchical, and it especially need not be hierarchical in the sense that rank is earned and kept.

Weird Harold
06-12-2010, 08:49 PM
I bet they have Myrddraal meetings before attacks, and some sort of system in place, but it need not be hierarchical, and it especially need not be hierarchical in the sense that rank is earned and kept.
I suspect that there is a Myddraal pecking order that is more or less permanent. There's no indication that I know of to suggest that Myddraal have some sort of 'hive-mind' where anything learned by one Myddraal's experiences is automatically incorporated into every Myddraal's learning/experience.

Terez
06-12-2010, 08:56 PM
That's a bit of a straw man, don't you think? :)

There is no evidence of a pecking order, nor is there any evidence of any military action on the part of the Shadowspawn since the Trolloc Wars that would have required it.

Neilbert
06-12-2010, 09:59 PM
If ravens and rats can be used that way, it would just shift the numbers problem to the ravens and rats instead of myrddraal -- as well as losing the pluss of the shadow-walking ability of the myrddraal.

You think there's a numbers problem with ravens and rats?

Why would this lose the plus of the shadow walking ability of the myrddraal? I don't see how you could make that connection.

But there is a point where it becomes impossible to pass orders to large numbers of troops without some sort of distributed command system and a continent wide, total mobilization of Trollocs is almost certainly larger than the know command elements available will be able to handle.

I really don't see why there is any need to coordinate beyond on this date release hell.

There's no indication that I know of to suggest that Myddraal have some sort of 'hive-mind' where anything learned by one Myddraal's experiences is automatically incorporated into every Myddraal's learning/experience.

Could you try to address the arguments were making, and not the arguments you've made up for us?

Weird Harold
06-13-2010, 12:41 AM
Why would this lose the plus of the shadow walking ability of the myrddraal? I don't see how you could make that connection.

Myddraal can travel any distance through the shadows to convey orders to distant forces, rats would have to run or ravens fly, thereby wasting time.


If the only order you need to give is "Kill" then you don't even need the Myddraal. If you want any sort of control over when and where, you need some way to convey commands to your forces.

You think there's a numbers problem with ravens and rats?

Yes, there would be too many in one place to effectively communicate with if you're going to use them as couriers/communicators.


You can ignore the point that the larger of numbers being commanded, the more some sort of command structure is inevitable if you like -- I pretty much expect Brandon to ignore it unless RJ's notes specify some outside source of dreadlords -- but there is a physical limitation to how many people -- creatures, animals, or whatever -- one person can communicate with at one time.

If orders have to be relayed from a central commander to each and every Myrddraal individually then the central commander will eventually reach a point where he/she/it spends more time issuing orders than making command decisions.

Terez
06-13-2010, 02:26 AM
The Myrddraal are needed to keep the Trollocs in line. All of them would have run at the first sign of the Power being used, at Algarin's, if not for the Fades, but apparently, the only real order given was to attack the manor and kill whatever was inside. No way to tell, since none of them made it there, but it certainly wasn't a sophisticated attack.

Also, orders like these can be passed along quite easily. Again, you are creating a problem where there is none.

nameless
06-13-2010, 03:50 AM
Plus, the general staff in this army can deliver messages directly into the minds of their sleeping soldiers. Not Fades, cause they don't dream on account of their creepy stillborn souls, but it'd be easy enough to send the message to someone sleeping next to the Fade and have them pass it on.

Terez
06-13-2010, 04:53 AM
I think that is a bit more complicated than is strictly necessary.

Weird Harold
06-13-2010, 10:20 AM
Plus, the general staff in this army can deliver messages directly into the minds of their sleeping soldiers. Not Fades, cause they don't dream on account of their creepy stillborn souls, but it'd be easy enough to send the message to someone sleeping next to the Fade and have them pass it on.

That would work well enough for pre-battle orders, but how would it help take advantage of a breach in the defenses?

I suppose it is possible that the ability to Channel isn't actually required for a "Dreadlord" as far as command and control is concerned and there is therefore no shortage of available humans for a command structure?

Neilbert
06-13-2010, 10:27 AM
Myddraal can travel any distance through the shadows to convey orders to distant forces, rats would have to run or ravens fly, thereby wasting time.

That's only if they have access to the proper edge of shadow.

If the only order you need to give is "Kill" then you don't even need the Myddraal.

Yes you do. You seem to be forgetting that Trollocs are cowards, and will only attack when they believe they will survive doing so.

If orders have to be relayed from a central commander to each and every Myrddraal individually then the central commander will eventually reach a point where he/she/it spends more time issuing orders than making command decisions.

What part of zerg rush do you not understand?

That would work well enough for pre-battle orders, but how would it help take advantage of a breach in the defenses?

What defenses? When has the Shadow ever been on the defense?

greatwolf
07-15-2010, 02:59 PM
hmmm.

I've always wondered if Demandred was busy raising dreadlords for the shadow (and himself) but thinking back today, it occured to me that Ishamael had been using dreadlords since the trolloc wars or thereabouts.

So he may already have a dreadlord programme in place. With God knows what numbers. But maybe enough that Demandred would not be able to compete if he started a similar army.

Taim then, might have been snapped up when still young. By now, he could be high enough to be one of Ishy's recruiters/trainers.

So the BT may not be demandred's home base. Its unlikely he was with the prophet either, since that episode sounded more like Mesaana's children.

So maybe shara could provide him with channelers he needs for his army?