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greatwolf
05-30-2010, 08:01 AM
A report that nothing had yet been found of Mazrim Taim. No reason for that to be in there. Another on worsening conditions in Arad Doman and Tarabon. Ships vanishing along the Aryth Ocean coast. Rumors of Tairen incursions into Cairhien. She was getting into the habit of putting everything in this box; none of that needed to be kept secret. Two sisters had vanished from Illian, and another in Caemlyn. She shivered, wondering where the Forsaken were. Too many of her agents had gone silent. There were lionfish out there, and she was swimming in darkness. There it was. The silk-thin slip of paper crackled as she unrolled it.
The sling has been used. The shepherd holds the sword.
The Hall of the Tower had voted as she had expected, unanimously and with no need for arm-twisting, much less invoking her authority. If a man had drawn Callandor, he must be the Dragon Reborn, and that man had to be guided by the White Tower. Three Sitters for three different Ajahs had proposed holding all plans close in the Hall before she even suggested it; the surprise had been that one was Elaida, but then the Reds would surely want the tightest hawsers possible kept on a man who could channel. The sole problem had been to stop a delegation from being sent to Tear to take him in hand, and that had not really been difficult, not when she was able to say that her news came from an Aes Sedai who had already managed to put herself close to the man.
But what was he doing now? Why had Moiraine not sent further word? Impatience hung so thick in the Hall now that she almost expected the air to sparkle. She kept a tight hold oh her anger. Burn the woman! Why hasn't she sent word?
The door crashed open, and she straightened furiously as more than a dozen women strode into her study, led by Elaida. All wore their shawls, most red-fringed, but cool-faced Alviarin, a White, was at Elaida's side, and Joline Maza, a slender Green, and plump Shemerin of the Yellow came close behind with Danelle, her big blue eyes not dreamy at all. In fact, at least one woman from every Ajah except the Blue. Some looked nervous, but most wore grim determination, and Elaida's dark eyes held stern confidence, even triumph.
"What is the meaning of this?" Siuan snapped, slapping the blackwood box shut with a sharp crack. She bounced to her feet and strode around the desk. First Moiraine and now this! "If this is about Tairen matters, Elaida, you know better than to bring others into it. And you know better than to walk in here as if this were your mother's kitchen! Make your apologies and leave before I make you wish you were an ignorant novice again!"
Her cold rage should have sent them scurrying, but though a few shifted uneasily, none made a move toward the door. Little Danelle actually smirked at her. And Elaida calmly reached out and pulled the striped stole from Siuan's shoulders. "You will not need this any longer," she said. "You were never fit for it, Siuan."

This started as a joke and it might have been discussed before, but I just noticed that all the keepers in recent time have been black except Leane. Both Sheriam and alvi were BA. Delibrately so.

Now I decided to try convincing myself she wasn't BA, but suddenly found to my surprise I couldn't. There's nothing I know of in the series that confirms Leane isn't BA.

Let me drop the evidence that points towards Leane being BA first :

1. No pov from Leane. There might be one in tGS iirc, but it doesn't rule out anything. This is quite suspicious for a character that's been almost at the centre of it all from the start. Hardly proof, but it might have been RJ's way of hiding her away.


2. As mentioned above, the BA seems to use keepers as a way keeping an eye on things. It actually makes sense to make the keeper black rather than the amyrlin herself.

3. Egwene's dream. Well acvtually what took place during her accepted test.


The Black Ajah waits. That, at least, was whole. It came from everywhere. Why did no one else seem to hear it?
Settling in the chair of the Amyrlin Seat – the chair that was also the Amyrlin Seat – she realized she had no idea what to do next. The other Aes Sedai had seated themselves when she did, all but Beldeine, who stood beside her with the staff, swallowing nervously. They all seemed to be waiting on her.
"Begin," she said finally...


..."There is only one penalty for this, known and recognized in every nation, but pronounced only here, in Tar Valon, in the Hall of the Tower. I call on the Amyrlin Seat to pronounce the sentence of gentling on this man."
Elaida's eyes glittered at Egwene. Rand. What do I do? Light, what do I do?
"Why do you hesitate?" Elaida demanded. "The sentence has been set down for three thousand years. Why do you hesitate, Egwene al'Vere?"
One of the Green Sitters was on her feet, anger bright through her calm. "Shame, Elaida! Show respect for the Amyrlin Seat! Show respect for the Mother!"
"Respect," Elaida answered coldly, "can be lost as well as won. Well, Egwene? Can it be you show your weakness, your unfitness for your office, at last? Can it be you will not pronounce sentence on this man?"
Rand tried to lift his head and failed.
Egwene struggled to her feet, head spinning, trying to remember she was the Amyrlin Seat with the power to command all these women, screaming that she was a novice, that she did not belong here, that something was dreadfully wrong. "No," she said shakily. "No, I cannot! I will not —"
"She betrays herself?" Elaida's shout drowned out Egwene's attempt to speak. "She condemns herself out of her own mouth! Take her!"
As Egwene opened her mouth, Beldeine moved beside her. Then the Keeper's staff struck her head.
Blackness.

Once again this is not proof just another pointer.

4. Suian and Egwene's betrayal.

This is the crux. Very few people were in a position to betray Suian when she was deposed. Moiraine sent messages about the captured BA that never got to Suian. Rather an attack on the stone resulted and the prisoners were killed.

So somehow, it seems the shadow was able to intercept Moiraine's messages to Suian.

And when Egwene was captured, Leane was in a position to know about the plans even though she's officially "not in the know".

So is there any thing I've missed that could clear Leane?

Terez
05-30-2010, 08:04 AM
You missed her POV in TGS.

greatwolf
05-30-2010, 08:07 AM
You missed her POV in TGS.


My bad. I meant tGS not TGH. I'll edit that.

Weird Harold
05-30-2010, 09:08 AM
So is there any thing I've missed that could clear Leane?

1: Leanne's treatment during Elaida's Coup seems rather poor recompense for setting up Siuan; the BA probably would have managed some lesser punishment for her or would have done away with her completely. Leaving her to be put to the question and stilled before execution leaves the BA open to exposure.

2: Leanne wasn't on Verin's list; if anyone should be on Verin's list it would be the highly placed BA like Keepers, Sitters and ajah heads.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2010, 10:58 AM
Letting Leane live when she reappeared in Salidar, not bound by the Three Oaths, was not the kind of danger the BA would accept. They would have killed her then, if not earlier.

Naturally, Verin will have missed a few, which will no doubt become rather important later on.

Did Leane swear on the Oath Rod, when Egwene started her attempt to capture one third of the BA? I can't remember, and I do not really feel like rereading a couple of Egwene chapters just for this.

Terez
05-30-2010, 11:03 AM
They made everyone re-swear. She wouldn't have been left out.

GonzoTheGreat
05-30-2010, 11:10 AM
I dunno. Perhaps she asked really nicely?
Or perhaps she pretended to still be locked up.

greatwolf
05-30-2010, 11:44 AM
1: Leanne's treatment during Elaida's Coup seems rather poor recompense for setting up Siuan; the BA probably would have managed some lesser punishment for her or would have done away with her completely. Leaving her to be put to the question and stilled before execution leaves the BA open to exposure.

2: Leanne wasn't on Verin's list; if anyone should be on Verin's list it would be the highly placed BA like Keepers, Sitters and ajah heads.


1. I agree, but Egwene quasi prophetic experience seems to indicate that the BA used the keeper (we are not told she is BA) to further their plans and dealt rather harshly with her. Leane is in such a situation. Egwene later seemed to imply that something could be done about stilling. At that point, it was impossible to heal stilling.

2. Verin's list should have included those who are not DFs. It could have excluded Suian and Moiraine for instance but it didn't. Because she thought it unimportant or because she couldn't be certain enough by her methods?

nameless
05-30-2010, 05:10 PM
Whatever prophecy lies in Egwene's betrayal at the hands of her Keeper during the Acceptance was likely paid off when Sheriam turned out to be Black. I can't think of any concrete evidence that Leanne's beyond suspicion but the circumstancial evidence is pretty overwhelming. As has been pointed out, if she were Black Ajah is seems incredibly unlikely that she would be stilled and put to question during the coup. It's not that they'd hesitate to throw one of their own under the bus, but stilling would counteract the Oath to never betray the Shadow and who knows what someone will say once they're under question?

JSUCamel
05-30-2010, 05:47 PM
Sheriam turned out to be Black

http://jsucamel.dreamhosters.com/blinkin.png

Enigma
05-31-2010, 08:40 AM
I don't think there is any doubt Leane was not BA. While the whole coup against Suian had Elaida as figurehead and had serious backing from the Red Ajah we know that both the forsaken and the Black Ajah were also supporting it.

If Leane was BA it would have been an easy matter for her to come out and denounce Siuan for her 'treason' in keeping the existance of the Dragon Reborn from the Hall. Everyone including the BA seemed to be caught by surprised by the split among the Ajahs and subsequent civil war even though it certainly played into the Shadow's hands. If the spilt was a happy accident as far as the BA were concerend they would not have expected it so having Leane as the smoking gun would not matter.

If anything having a Blue come out against a Blue Amyrlin may have caused serious tensions among the Blue Ajah which again would play into the hands of the Shadow.

greatwolf
06-01-2010, 12:40 PM
Whatever prophecy lies in Egwene's betrayal at the hands of her Keeper during the Acceptance was likely paid off when Sheriam turned out to be Black. I can't think of any concrete evidence that Leanne's beyond suspicion but the circumstancial evidence is pretty overwhelming. As has been pointed out, if she were Black Ajah is seems incredibly unlikely that she would be stilled and put to question during the coup. It's not that they'd hesitate to throw one of their own under the bus, but stilling would counteract the Oath to never betray the Shadow and who knows what someone will say once they're under question?


That's the major reason why I brought up the accepted test, nameless. Not the only one though. But you'll notice they apparently stilled one of their own in order to get at Egwene there and they may have made other promises to her as well. For instance a return from the dead with her ability intact and other rewards from the DO.



If Leane was BA it would have been an easy matter for her to come out and denounce Siuan for her 'treason' in keeping the existance of the Dragon Reborn from the Hall

Permit me to rework your logic a little. If Leane a blue betrays Suian a blue amyrlin, do you think the blue ajah would not be suspicoius? And might someone actually uncover the fact that she's working in the interests of another ajah (the BA!) soon enough?

Kimon
06-01-2010, 04:17 PM
Permit me to rework your logic a little. If Leane a blue betrays Suian a blue amyrlin, do you think the blue ajah would not be suspicoius? And might someone actually uncover the fact that she's working in the interests of another ajah (the BA!) soon enough?

There is also the issue that if she were Black, she would have merely served the same role that Sheriam did. Which is to say, they (the Black) could have warned her of the coup, let her escape, and then, as the highest ranking official from the legitimate regime, become the leader of the resistance against the usurper. This would have left the Black in effective control of both groups, which was clearly what Mesaana wanted. But she already had that with Sheriam, until of course Min walked into town with Logain and those "two other girls".

greatwolf
06-01-2010, 06:48 PM
There is also the issue that if she were Black, she would have merely served the same role that Sheriam did. Which is to say, they (the Black) could have warned her of the coup, let her escape, and then, as the highest ranking official from the legitimate regime, become the leader of the resistance against the usurper. This would have left the Black in effective control of both groups, which was clearly what Mesaana wanted. But she already had that with Sheriam, until of course Min walked into town with Logain and those "two other girls".


Alvi could have been amyrlin but wasn't. And Taim gave Rand the seal and helped him build the BT. So why not leane , if she is indeed BA?

The shadow has done a lot of confusing things and I don't think there's any action on Leane's part that could put her in the clear. But I do hope someone gets her off the hook soon, I'm really getting worried now...

Kimon
06-01-2010, 07:29 PM
Alvi could have been amyrlin but wasn't. And Taim gave Rand the seal and helped him build the BT. So why not leane , if she is indeed BA?

The shadow has done a lot of confusing things and I don't think there's any action on Leane's part that could put her in the clear. But I do hope someone gets her off the hook soon, I'm really getting worried now...

It basically comes down to three very hard to reconcile issues. First- could Verin have possibly missed Leane, because it is irrational to think that if she were on that list that her name would not have stood out in Egwene's thoughts, as did say Sheriam's and Alviarin's. Second- if she were Black, she would have presumably passed on info to Alviarin about what Siuan and Moiraine were up to with the Dragon, yet Alviarin seems to genuinely get this information for the first time from Elaida. Third- logistics. If Leane is Black, that would essentially mean that with the exceptions of Siuan, Rafela, Lelaine and Lyrelle, that nearly every Blue we have spent more than two seconds on in the series is either dead, MIA, or Black. Add to that the fact that Lyrelle is at least MIA, and maybe dead, and that just seems excessive, especially when the only real cause of suspicion are those intercepted missives from Moiraine to Siuan.

Albeit that third issue comes with its own statistical anomaly, namely the fact that Leane is technically now a Green, but the rationale still holds.

Toss the dice
06-02-2010, 03:27 AM
I don't think there is any irrefutable proof that Leane is NOT black ajah. The main thing would be Leane reswearing the oaths during the black ajah cleansing in TGS. We didn't actually see her do it, but I highly doubt she got out of it, regardless of her unique position being locked up.

At any rate, while we don't have the ironclad proof on-screen up to this point, given everything we know she has done, everything that has happened to her, and the circumstances involved with both - I would find it ridiculous to believe Leane might be BA.

This is just my opinion (like the rest of it), but I would actually be surprised to find that there have been a lot of Black Keepers in say the last 1000 years. Sheriam was a special case in Salidar and Alviarin was a special case in the WT - and I mainly see them as Keepers due to the times (Dragon Reborn, etc). My guess is that the BA has traditionally focused on installing members in the Hall.

While having a Black Keeper of the Chronicles (not to mention an Amyrlin) would give you a great position of power to work from, the risks are also greater than simply having members in the Hall. In the Hall, with say X amount of BA holding seats, you could both "pass" and "veto" decisions with very little risk involved. Now with Tarmon Gaidon coming and the Dragon Reborn, times are very important, and the Shadow is pulling out all the stops and taking risks to a whole new level for the potential rewards. Just my opinion, but this is the way I see it.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2010, 03:54 AM
... the only real cause of suspicion are those intercepted missives from Moiraine to Siuan.Why would that be a cause of suspicion?

At that time, the BA was already well aware of the importance of the DR, of the fact that Moiraine was tagging along with him, and of the fact that something important was going to happen in Tear. It is far more likely that someone at the dovecots intercepted the messages, and decided not to pass them on.
If Moiraine encrypted or otherwise protected her messages, then they may simply have decided to destroy them, rather than show them to Siuan. If she didn't, then they would definitely have been destroyed.

While the BA may not have been too interested in having a Keeper, I am quite sure they saw the value in getting their hands on all incoming messages before anyone else did.

Kimon
06-02-2010, 09:27 AM
Why would that be a cause of suspicion?

At that time, the BA was already well aware of the importance of the DR, of the fact that Moiraine was tagging along with him, and of the fact that something important was going to happen in Tear. It is far more likely that someone at the dovecots intercepted the messages, and decided not to pass them on.
If Moiraine encrypted or otherwise protected her messages, then they may simply have decided to destroy them, rather than show them to Siuan. If she didn't, then they would definitely have been destroyed.

While the BA may not have been too interested in having a Keeper, I am quite sure they saw the value in getting their hands on all incoming messages before anyone else did.


I was thinking of the message that Moiraine sent from Tear about the need to increase the guard on Taim.

GonzoTheGreat
06-02-2010, 10:41 AM
Yep. That was a message she sent by pigeon. Together with a carbon copy, to make sure the message arrived.

Now, where would those pigeons land? In the Tar Valon pigeon lofts, of course.
What would happen when those pigeons landed? Someone would have taken the message off the legs of the pigeons.
What would have happened then? The Black Sister who had taken those messages would burn them to a crisp, probably out of sight of anyone else.

Siuan did get a message eventually, about Rand holding Callandor. But by that time, everyone in Tar Valon already knew about it, so letting her have that did not matter to the BA. But that message arrived a lot later than Siuan would have expected, and a simple explanation for that is a hold up somewhere in the process. This wouldn't have been during the pigeon flight, I think.

greatwolf
06-03-2010, 06:46 AM
Second- if she were Black, she would have presumably passed on info to Alviarin about what Siuan and Moiraine were up to with the Dragon, yet Alviarin seems to genuinely get this information for the first time from Elaida.

Verin was black and knew about Suian and Moiraine. And the horn. How much did she pass to the BA? Remember that AS are AS. A very ambitous lot. They probably decide what they want to do and how unless they are certain a greater danger lies ahead, they'll probably try to get away with anything. I'm thinking of alvi herself as I type, but it'll probably go for DFs and the forsaken. There was the scene among the BA that got caught in KoD arguing about who should have told who what. I think its instructive about the communication among BA members especially when they are outside the WT.

greatwolf
06-03-2010, 06:56 AM
What would happen when those pigeons landed? Someone would have taken the message off the legs of the pigeons.
What would have happened then? The Black Sister who had taken those messages would burn them to a crisp, probably out of sight of anyone else.


Unless we want to assume all AS are retarded, why would anyone leave a place where secret messages are to be delivered unattended? Or known to anyone except those who you trust to pick said messages?

I'm at work now, but it seems Leane also said she had a network of eyes and ears in Tar valon. That would be a simple ruse to feed Suian if she was indeed BA. If not, she really ought to have told Egwene about some of the situation in Tar valon even before they got there.

E: sorry I missed these post earlier, not actually trying to waste posts though that could be fun. At times.

GonzoTheGreat
06-03-2010, 08:33 AM
Unless we want to assume all AS are retarded, why would anyone leave a place where secret messages are to be delivered unattended? Or known to anyone except those who you trust to pick said messages?Good questions, those. Let's examine the evidence, shall we?

Leane pulled the door open to reveal a dark novice who flinched at Siuan's continuing tirade, then dropped a deep curtsy. "Messages for the Amyrlin, Aes Sedai," the girl squeaked. "Two pigeons arrived at the loft." She was one of those who had told Min she was beautiful, and she tried to stare past the Keeper with wide eyes.
"This does not concern you, child," Leane said briskly, taking the tiny cylinders of bone out of the girl's hand. "Back to the loft with you." Before the novice finished rising, Leane shut the door, then leaned against it with a sigh. "I have jumped at every unexpected sound since you told me..." Straightening, she came back to the table. "Two more messages, Mother. Shall I... ?"The two messages that Siuan receives here are that Mazrim Taim has escaped, and that Rand holds Callandor. Both brought from the loft by some random novice.

So I would say that the answer is that we can indeed safely assume that all AS are retarded.

greatwolf
06-03-2010, 09:57 AM
Good questions, those. Let's examine the evidence, shall we?

The two messages that Siuan receives here are that Mazrim Taim has escaped, and that Rand holds Callandor. Both brought from the loft by some random novice.

So I would say that the answer is that we can indeed safely assume that all AS are retarded.

Wow!

Casabamelon
06-03-2010, 10:10 AM
Unless we want to assume all AS are retarded...

This is my standard assumption until evidence is provided that suggests otherwise.


So I would say that the answer is that we can indeed safely assume that all AS are retarded.

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Kimon
06-03-2010, 04:59 PM
Good questions, those. Let's examine the evidence, shall we?

The two messages that Siuan receives here are that Mazrim Taim has escaped, and that Rand holds Callandor. Both brought from the loft by some random novice.

So I would say that the answer is that we can indeed safely assume that all AS are retarded.

This doesn't require that the cotes are unattended. It only indicates that novices are used, at least at times, as couriers of missives that arrive in the cotes, and then are distributed to their intended recipients throughout the tower. Thus the cote itself could be attended, and overseen by some unnamed clerk, or clerks, or staffed on a rotating schedule by novices. Certainly someone must have some charge over the care of the birds, and over the sending and receiving of messages, which given the frequent use of birds as messengers, should entail a full-time job, say Postmaster o' the Tower. That of course might still leave the possibility that the cote might have regular operating hours, and that during the after hours, anyone could just walk in to the cotes and intercept messages.

GonzoTheGreat
06-04-2010, 04:46 AM
What I am suggesting is that Postmaster (Postmistress, more likely) would be a very useful job for the BA to hold.

Yes, novices would be allowed to deal with the pigeon droppings, and they could also be useful for bringing the messages to the AS who were supposed to get them. But overall supervision would be an AS job.

greatwolf
06-04-2010, 05:23 AM
Actually, Gonzo's quote doesn't take Leane off the hook. At all. But to have sensitive information being handled in that manner... I think I'll just accept that AS are indeed retarded. Maybe its a side effect of the oath rod. :p

Using a novice for running errands doesn't mean the cotes are not properly guarded and/or warded. But still...

Anyhow, most of the four points against Leane remain relatively intact. Perhaps I'll find the 5th and 6th.