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Frenzy
06-09-2010, 12:03 AM
i've gone on record before saying i hate hate hate hate hate HATE zero tolerance school policies. There's another instance playing out a local high school. The same one that the Westboro douche squad protested a few months back. Why Palo Alto is suddenly a happening place i don't know, but whatever.

Here's the article: Student brings Airsoft Rifle to school (http://forums.mercurynews.com/topic/herhold-dont-prosecute-gunn-student-with-airsoft-rifle?source=article).

For a 4.17 GPA senior this guy sure is an idiot. But i fail to see what implementation of Zero Tolerance bullshit policies will gain in this situation. i also kinda agree with one of the commenters who said that no law was broken in this case.

Oatman
06-09-2010, 12:31 AM
Frenzy, that link leads to a forum thread. I believe this (http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_15246644?nclick_check=1) is where it was meant to go.

ShadowbaneX
06-09-2010, 12:56 AM
I've said it before, Zero Tolerance policies are in place to protect the schools. If they don't have them, then the first time something goes wrong they're going to be blamed for not having these policies and get their asses sued off.

You want to get rid of Zero Tolerance policies, get rid of stupid people pointlessly suing schools for things beyond their control. As long as they can lose millions to some pointless lawsuit they're going to have these policies in place to protect themselves.

Frenzy
06-09-2010, 01:28 AM
thanks Oats

Frenzy
06-09-2010, 01:32 AM
agreed, sbx. i don't know if workplaces have zero tolerance policies in place. mine doesn't. i don't feel less safe because of it. idiocy.

it was an airsoft gun that shoots plastic bb's. What's next, arresting kids who bring hot melt glue guns to school?

Uno
06-09-2010, 01:42 AM
agreed, sbx. i don't know if workplaces have zero tolerance policies in place. mine doesn't. i don't feel less safe because of it. idiocy.

it was an airsoft gun that shoots plastic bb's. What's next, arresting kids who bring hot melt glue guns to school?

Are you sure they haven't done that already, sis? Seem to recall someone getting in trouble over a butter knife a while back. Whatever the case, you'd think the school administration and maybe the parents could arrange for some kind of punishment without involving the judicial systm. But what do I know?

Matoyak
06-09-2010, 02:35 AM
This is ridiculous. Arrested for an airsoft gun in his trunk? And he let them know about it, leading to his arrest?
Where is it that his intelligence gets to be questioned here?
For a 4.17 GPA senior this guy sure is an idiotRespectfully disagree with ya here. Don't think it has anything to do with intelligence/idiocy/whatever. Hell, that link implies that the kid didn't even have to go to school that day, he was simply dropping some robotics equipment by. Blurgh, and the poor bastard's been arrested and is facing possible maiming of his college career? Fucking ridiculous.

EDIT: I don't mean to imply that you (Frenzy) support this, I simply take issue with calling the kid an idiot for this, and I disagree with the article's claim that he needs to apologize to every member of campus for it.

EDIT EDIT: Also, I happen to know that in certain cases, one can be allowed to bring a weapon to class for demonstration purposes. Our Salutatorian filed a request to do so, and whatever legal mumbo jumbo had to happen happened, and she was allowed to bring an M1 Garand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M1_Garand) to school. If that kind of stuff can be allowed legally, getting arrested for a fucking airsoft gun that was being transported to somewhere else is just a bit overboard.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: Granted, this might be a Texas legal thing versus another state. Dunno about how it all works for this exception thingy.

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2010, 03:34 AM
This is ridiculous. Arrested for an airsoft gun in his trunk? And he let them know about it, leading to his arrest?
Where is it that his intelligence gets to be questioned here?The problem wasn't quite that he had it in his trunk all the time.
The problem started with the fact that when they drove onto the school terrain, his passenger was holding the gun in his hand to look at it. Only when they'd arrived did they lock it away in the trunk. Someone saw that, and naturally* panicked. The police was called, made a huge fuss, and the student considered the possibility that it was because of his toy gun. That's when he let them know, and he was arrested after that.

* Panicking when zombies start sneaking up on you, and a 50 foot snake is slithering through the grass towards your graduation ceremony isn't natural. I've watched enough Buffy episodes to know that. But when someone has something that might maybe possibly be a gun, then panic is the only remaining option. Which is why guns are legal in the USA, and zombies aren't.

Neilbert
06-09-2010, 03:39 AM
Uh dude, zombies are legal here. So are flamethrowers strangely enough. Classic example of government staying out of it, and problems solving themselves.

Matoyak
06-09-2010, 03:39 AM
The police was called, made a huge fuss, and the student considered the possibility that it was because of his toy gun. That's when he let them know, and he was arrested after that.Yes, I got all that.
I was under the impression, however, that the official saw the gun while it was being transferred into the trunk. Which gives the "natural panic" said official instigated even less reason.
Also...if the official SAW the gun in the guy's friend's hand, why the hell did they need to lock down the campus, and why was all this hullabaloo? Why not simply tell the police which vehicle it was? ~blink~ I mean...that would have avoided quite a bit of panic, I would assume. I mean, yeah, maybe you still need to lock down the campus, but if you already saw what vehicle it was in... guh, my brain hurts...

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2010, 03:52 AM
Ah, so that is it. You expect officials to be sensible. A rather uncommon delusion, that, nowadays, but not totally unheard of.
Have you considered consulting a doctor on this?

Mort
06-09-2010, 03:59 AM
The problem wasn't quite that he had it in his trunk all the time.
The problem started with the fact that when they drove onto the school terrain, his passenger was holding the gun in his hand to look at it. Only when they'd arrived did they lock it away in the trunk. Someone saw that, and naturally* panicked. The police was called, made a huge fuss, and the student considered the possibility that it was because of his toy gun. That's when he let them know, and he was arrested after that.



Can't get the article link to work now, but if the gun were in the friends hands when they were on school property, I'd be pretty upset as well. Remembering that guns and schools doesn't really play well in US schools I'd go bat shit crazy if I saw someone handle something that looked like a gun around at school.

People commented and said the kid didn't break any sort of law, but is there any school regulations that states that you can't bring a gun, or a gun-looking object into school, like an Airsoft pistol? Or at least showing one publicly?
I wouldn't be surprised if there were such a regulation, and I would fully support one too. With the history of school shootings in the US these past years, you can't have a panic as soon as someone brings their toy gun to school. That will also only lessen the reaction if people actually saw a real gun but didn't act on it.

I dunno if I support him being arrested though, I believe he was negligent and/or should have been aware he could potentially (did he?) have created a panic by doing what he did. Whatever that gets him...

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2010, 04:27 AM
People commented and said the kid didn't break any sort of law, but is there any school regulations that states that you can't bring a gun, or a gun-looking object into school, like an Airsoft pistol? Or at least showing one publicly?That was another example of this same zero tolerance lunacy, a couple of years back. Then a kid got into trouble with precisely such an anti-gun rule, because he'd made a drawing of one. Obviously, the drawing satisfied the "gun-looking" bit of the rule, so he was guilty. Can't remember whether he was actually arrested because of it, but it wouldn't have been out of character for the authorities.

Mort
06-09-2010, 05:06 AM
That was another example of this same zero tolerance lunacy, a couple of years back. Then a kid got into trouble with precisely such an anti-gun rule, because he'd made a drawing of one. Obviously, the drawing satisfied the "gun-looking" bit of the rule, so he was guilty. Can't remember whether he was actually arrested because of it, but it wouldn't have been out of character for the authorities.

Well that's just stupid :)
But I guess some lawyer could swing a lawsuit with the paper gun... :(

Oatman
06-09-2010, 08:11 AM
thanks Oats

No worries. At least it wasn't a grammar mistake. That would have distracted everyone from the topic of the thread.

The official who saw the gun did the right thing and called it in. The kid who had the gun did the right thing and owned up to it. It should have ended there.

Neilbert
06-09-2010, 08:35 AM
With the history of school shootings in the US these past years, you can't have a panic as soon as someone brings their toy gun to school.

The "history" of school shootings "these past years" is a bullshit media narrative that doesn't reflect reality, much like how reporting of violent crime has gone way up while violent crime has slightly decreased.

Myth No. 10. “School violence is rampant.”

It may seem so, with media attention focused on a spate of school shootings. In fact, school shootings are extremely rare. Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S. In general, school assaults and other violence have dropped by nearly half in the past decade. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438)

I dunno if I support him being arrested though, I believe he was negligent and/or should have been aware he could potentially (did he?) have created a panic by doing what he did. Whatever that gets him...

You don't know if a kid should be arrested for what amounts to a responsibly handled harmless mistake?

The official who saw the gun did the right thing and called it in. The kid who had the gun did the right thing and owned up to it. It should have ended there.

This is more or less exactly how it should have been handled.

WinespringBrother
06-09-2010, 08:54 AM
I'm shccked that the NRA hasn't jumped in to defend the kid (or have they).

Sinistrum
06-09-2010, 09:11 AM
SBX is dead on with this one, which is why the police handled it and not the school administration. The concept of sovereign immunity prevents the police from being sued while they are exercising their legitimate duties. The school administration isn't afford them same sorts of protections.

Its sad to see zero tolerance policies, and extremely aggravating on a personal level. Particularly because such policies make absolutely no distinction between aggressive and defensive actions in cases such as school fights or responses to bullying. However, from a legal standpoint, its entirely understandable for schools to adopt them. The real issue here is tort reform. Until that happens with regards to the myriad of issues a school can be sued upon when it relates towards its actions and discipline of children, school districts have absolutely no interest in handling these types of situations with any decision making process that could later be questioned. Its much easier just to hand this stuff off to the cops.

Basel Gill
06-09-2010, 09:24 AM
SBX is dead on with this one, which is why the police handled it and not the school administration. The concept of sovereign immunity prevents the police from being sued while they are exercising their legitimate duties. The school administration isn't afford them same sorts of protections.

Its sad to see zero tolerance policies, and extremely aggravating on a personal level. Particularly because such policies make absolutely no distinction between aggressive and defensive actions in cases such as school fights or responses to bullying. However, from a legal standpoint, its entirely understandable for schools to adopt them. The real issue here is tort reform. Until that happens with regards to the myriad of issues a school can be sued upon when it relates towards its actions and discipline of children, school districts have absolutely no interest in handling these types of situations with any decision making process that could later be questioned. Its much easier just to hand this stuff off to the cops.

I was going to say tort reform. You beat me.

Stupid policies come from the concept of covering your ass. People are trained NOT to think only to follow policy which is primarily geared toward minimizing lawsuits.

GonzoTheGreat
06-09-2010, 10:14 AM
SBX is dead on with this one, which is why the police handled it and not the school administration. The concept of sovereign immunity prevents the police from being sued while they are exercising their legitimate duties. The school administration isn't afford them same sorts of protections.But that doesn't explain why the cops didn't simply shrug it off when they had all the facts, does it?
I mean, if they couldn't be sued for "failure to be stupid idiots", then they had no legitimate reason for arresting the student once it was clear that this was simply a red herring*.

So, why did the police act stupidly here, and why does the American public accept such stupidity in people who are authorized to use deadly force if they deem it necessary?

* A gun shaped red herring, admittedly.

Basel Gill
06-09-2010, 10:24 AM
IMO, they acted stupidly because people are damned if they do and damned if they don't anymore. If they had let this kid go and then, God forbid, another kid came to school with a toy gun and shot some kid's eye out, it would be all over the news and the school district gets sued, etc. And that's a good case scenario.

The police and school officials want to "look" like they are all over any potential threat to the kids and be able to say that they did "everything" possible in the event of a tragedy. It sounds good on TV to say we have a zero tolerance policy. That way it sounds safe and no one has to wear out their poor little heads thinking about potential situations like this.

DahLliA
06-09-2010, 12:07 PM
stupid people are stupid.

Matoyak
06-09-2010, 01:51 PM
The official who saw the gun did the right thing and called it in. The kid who had the gun did the right thing and owned up to it. It should have ended there.(Emphasis mine)
Damn Oatman, you're on a roll. That's two topics in a row I've agreed with you...can't rep you again. Sorry :(

I would personally like to see what this airsoft gun looks like. It isn't all that common to have an airsoft gun that is made to resemble a real weapon, and they by law have to have things like bright orange paint in specific instances. AKA, it is typically quite easy to tell that THIS ISN'T A REAL GUN. Otherwise they are illegal to own.
Or at least, that's how I understand it. Could be wrong, but I don't think I am.

Also still not sure why if the person who reported this SAW the car it was in...why did the police have to wait until the kid told them himself where it was? I mean...it isn't too hard to figure out that if they put the gun in the trunk of a specific car, it just might still be in that car...maybe. ~_~;;; I mean, I know it isn't all that important to this topic, but still...

Mort
06-09-2010, 02:20 PM
The "history" of school shootings "these past years" is a bullshit media narrative that doesn't reflect reality, much like how reporting of violent crime has gone way up while violent crime has slightly decreased.

Myth No. 10. “School violence is rampant.”

It may seem so, with media attention focused on a spate of school shootings. In fact, school shootings are extremely rare. Even including the more common violence that is gang-related or dispute-related, only 12 to 20 homicides a year occur in the 100,000 schools in the U.S. In general, school assaults and other violence have dropped by nearly half in the past decade. (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15111438)


Thing is, it has nothing to do with how often violence or school shootings occur. Granted, they have been few, even though zero is much preferred. What is important is that people are scared out of their minds for stuff like this. And that makes all the difference.

What I meant was that everyone who wasn't a baby remembered columbine and the other shootings, some more vividly than others. If someone would see a gun, or something looking like a gun, they would be thinking "Columbine, oh oh" and panic, call the cops etc.

My point had very little to do with media scares. School shootings is, even though few and far between, such a big event that people are still vigilant against them, and more importantly, afraid of them.

Showing up with even a water pistol that resembles a gun could easily make people react strongly against, thinking it was a gun.

And I believe that the kids realized this when the school went into lockdown, they told the authorities because they thought they were the cause of it, which they were. And I agree that they should only be penalized within the school somehow, at least say they were sorry. Granted there wasn't any regulations against what they did, but maybe it's implied to not show up guns at schools and the like.


You don't know if a kid should be arrested for what amounts to a responsibly handled harmless mistake?



I couldn't read the article the first time around, hence my "dunno", even though, given what I gathered from your posts, it didn't seem like something to get arrested for.

Neilbert
06-09-2010, 03:10 PM
What is important is that people are scared out of their minds for stuff like this. And that makes all the difference.

Yes, let us cater to reactionary idiots. What a great way to structure a society.

Uno
06-09-2010, 04:05 PM
Granted there wasn't any regulations against what they did, but maybe it's implied to not show up guns at schools and the like.

The original story from June 2 makes it clear that it was against the rules to bring an "imitation firearm" to school. So the kid does seem to have broken the rules, but that's no reason to go bonkers over what is really a rather silly episode. Criminal charges for something like this is just absurd, and expelling the kid strikes me as unnecessarily vindictive.

Funnily enough, I saw a kid in a track suit carrying a gun onto our campus just the other week, but I'm not prone to panic, so I recognized the thing as a salute rifle, and assumed that it was part the ROTC's graduation ceremonies. This turned out to be correct, as a couple of other kids in dress uniform came carrying more rifles and swords shortly afterwards. I did occur to me that someone else might react negatively to seeing a kid in civilian gear carrying a gun, though.