13 Channelers and 13 Myrddraal

[Ozymandias]

This is a tidbit RJ dropped that always bothered me. Moiraine speaks in either tEotW or tDR about how 13 Dreadlords weaving the flows through 13 Myrddraal can turn a channeler to the Shadow against their will.

This mention is given some importance, as Moiraine progresses to say something like "our greatest strength is our greatest weakness. Non-channelers don't have this weakness at all."

However... this sounds like a strong, but simple, weave of Compulsion. Whats the difference? Given the very logical and clearly pre-arranged elements of the plot, it doesn't seem like Jordan to include such an obviously retconned fact, since Compulsion plays a fairly large role in the story afterwards. So the question is... what is the advantage to such a difficult and complicated procedure? And what does it do? It can't change the victim's personality, I presume. As Lanfear said about Asmodean, "you may have cut him off from the Great Lord, but it doesn't change the man he was." Wouldn't this be the same, but opposite?

[Dragon]

RJ explained it in more detail in this Tor Q&A:


Week 15 Question: When a channeler is forcibly turned to the Dark, is his/her former personality lost to eternity? Are they in a permanent state of mindless Compulsion? Furthermore, can a channeler forcibly turned to the Dark return to the Light unaided?

Robert Jordan Answers: They are not in a mindless state of Compulsion. Their former personality is twisted, the darker elements that everyone has to some degree elevated while what might be called the good elements are largely suppressed. I don't mean things like courage, which is useful even to villains, but they are unlikely to be very charitable, for example, and forget any altruistic impulses. Call it being turned into a mirror image of yourself in many ways. It is very unlikely that a channeler forcibly turned to the Shadow could find a way back to the Light unaided. For one reason, by virtue of the twisting he or she had undergone, it is very unlikely that he or she would have any desire to do so.

[GonzoTheGreat]

TDR, Chapter 22, The Price of the Ring

Sheriam sighed, glanced at the other Aes Sedai again, then dropped her voice to a whisper and spoke swiftly. "This is something known only to a few, child, even in the Tower. You should not learn it now, if ever, but I will tell you. There is – a weakness in being able to channel. That we learn to open ourselves to the True Source means that we can be opened to other things." Egwene shuddered. "Calm yourself, child. It is not so easily done. It is a thing not done, so far as I know – Light send it has not been done! – since the Trolloc Wars. It took thirteen Dreadlords – Darkfriends who could channel – weaving the flows through thirteen Myrddraal. You see? Not easily done. There are no Dreadlords today. This is a secret of the Tower, child. If others knew, we could never convince them they were safe. Only one who can channel can be turned in this way. The weakness of our strength. Everyone else is as safe as a fortress; only their own deeds and will can turn them to the Shadow."
Compulsion can be fought, it seems that this can't. If you use a form of Compulsion sufficiently strong to overcome all resistance, then the subject that remains is useless for anything but the simplest of tasks.

If Egwene's Accepted test was accurate, then the 13+13 trick could turn Rand in a way that would preserve his usefulness to the Shadow. Of course, that raises the question of why Lanfear didn't use this; she definitely had the opportunity.

Until the recent Taim discussion, I thought that it was likely that this trick had been used to turn him, after the BA sprang him free from AS captivity. Now I don't know anymore what to think of Taim.

[Nazbaque]

I believe Lanfear didn't use it out of vanity. If she forced Rand (LTT) to the Dark she would have to admit that she can't persuade him to do so with her beauty.

[Dragon]

I also don't think that Taim was turned with the 13+13 trick.

There were several PoV of the highest ranking Black Sisters (especially Alviarin & Galina) and - as far as I know - neither indicates that they know that the Black Tower is actually led by a person turned to the Shadow by the BA.

On the contrary, e.g. in the prologue of ACoS, Alviarin asks Mesaana how to deal with the BT.

RJ also said the following once:

Q: Have you ever thought about reinstituting some of the old ideas from earlier books? For example, in "The Dragon Reborn" you had a situation with thirteen dark sisters and thirteen Myrdral to forceably convert someone to the darker side of things. It seems you have abandoned that. Do you think you might have something like that pop up again at some unexpected moment? It doesn't seem realistic for the black ajah to abandon the idea.
A: I have not abandoned this notion about a circle of 13 AS and 13 Myrddraal can convert someone to the Shadow. It is not an easy situation to set up, in fact its a very difficult situation to set up. It has to be worth the effort, you don't go to all of this effort to just convert anyone. In fact it might be better for your plans to manipulate someone against their will than as a willing ally.

This rather indicates that the 13+13 trick happens very seldom and maybe only if you want to convent someone important like Rand.

That also the reason why I don't believe -like some others - that Sheriam was turned to the Shadow; she is simply manipulated/forced against her will.

Anyway, in my view, Taim is a "real" DF.

[irerancincpkc]

I've always kind of thought that Taim was turned, but I guess I can accept he is a real DF, though maybe he didn't convert until later...

[Terez]

I never did understand the belief that Taim was turned, other than wanting it to have been done to someone. There's nothing in his personality to suggest that he's not a true Darkfriend, not that there would be if he had been turned.

[irerancincpkc]

I guess I didn't want him to be a DF, for some odd reason, I've kind of liked him. I mean, it's been obvious for a while he was one, so maybe that's why I went to the turned excuse. :D

[Dragon]

I suppose some people unconsciously bought Joiya's story from TSR, ch.5, about Liandrin & the other BA wanting to control Taim, and linked this to the 13+13 trick.

Of course we later learned that Amico's story about Tanchico and the sad bracelets was actually the truth.

Considering the BA Oaths, it seems unlikely that Joiya could give away a true plan of the BA (contrary to Amico, who was stilled and thus freed from the Oaths), because the Oaths likely forbid a Black Sister to talk about these things for the sake of secrecy.

And as said, there is also nothing in the PoV of the high-ranking Black Sisters, which would point to such a control about or turning of Taim.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I suppose some people unconsciously bought Joiya's story from TSR, ch.5, about Liandrin & the other BA wanting to control Taim, and linked this to the 13+13 trick.

Of course we later learned that Amico's story about Tanchico and the sad bracelets was actually the truth.
And how did we learn that?
Oh yeah, I forgot: we learn it because Taim is sprung free from the AS, just as predicted. And he then goes on to create chaos, just as predicted.

I've always had the impression that both were true, but only one was taken serious enough, more or less.

[Dragon]

The Shadow was likely involved in freeing Taim and helping him then, but apparently not the BA and certainly not Liandrin's group, as Joiya said.

And that would indicate that Taim is a DF, but not a person turned to the Shadow (which was the topic of the discussion).

[Gandelail]

That also the reason why I don't believe -like some others - that Sheriam was turned to the Shadow; she is simply manipulated/forced against her will.

Wow, I think I missed something here about Sheriam... can someone point a poor Youngling to the appropriate threads or theories (or even the right book)?

Thanks in advance.

P.S. I'm glad the 'Taim being turned' idea is being laid to rest a little bit.

[Terez]

Wow, I think I missed something here about Sheriam... can someone point a poor Youngling to the appropriate threads or theories (or even the right book)?
Well, the theories all center around a couple of things you'll remember: the Gray Man incident in the Tower in The Dragon Reborn, and the beatings she starts getting later in the series (she's obviously being beaten by someone who can channel - top suspects are Halima, Delana, and Lelaine).

[Dragon]

Someone obviously controls Sheriam more or less, as the scene with her beater in PoD shows.

As Terez said, there are basically two camps: she is either controlled by the Shadow (most likely by Delana and/or Aran'gar) or by Lelaine. In this context it's further debated, if Sheriam is a Black or not.

In my opinion, the better reasons speak for a manipulation by the Shadow (like RJ described in his quote), because there was this Gray Man incident in TDR, where the Shadow already threatened Sheriam (which means she isn't BA). Especially in the last books, Sheriam's reactions also often mirror those of Delana. Finally, Lelaine might be power hungry, but I doubt that she would beat another high-ranking Sisters (Lelaine even says that she wouldn't do this in KoD, ch.1).

But we'll certainly RAFO.

[Terez]

Someone obviously controls Sheriam more or less, as the scene with her beater in PoD shows.

As Terez said, there are basically two camps: she is either controlled by the Shadow (most likely by Delana and/or Aran'gar) or by Lelaine. In this context it's further debated, if Sheriam is a Black or not.
And then there's the speculation on Lelaine being Black, of course...

[Dragon]

I think this idea can be quickly dismissed.

After all, why should Aran'gar bother dealing with Delana and thus manipulating the Hall, if Lelaine - that means one of the most important Sisters among the Rebels - is actually Black.

Also in Lelaine's PoV is nothing suspicious that suggests a link to the Shadow (thought it's of course a quite short one).

[4Alethinos]

My personal taste is that Taim was always a power hungry person and used the ends justified the means to get it. ie he was evil. I do not think he became a darkfriend until later as the Mhael of the DT.

I think he got an offer he could not refuse in that it conformed to his desires for power. RJ stated that the forces of the Dark are winning and Taim is an oppportunist, after all. It will be interesting to see who offs him or how he gets killed as I think that is his destiny.

"Evil is not always its own reward. Sometimes good old retribution happens just as a reminder." ;)

[Frenzy]

Why wouldn't that prove it? Taim doesn't have an ounce of altruism in him. He's greedy, selfish, ambitious, arrogant, and all to a fault. All those lovely bad facets of human nature, which the 13 x 13 amplifies.

i'm not saying that's what happened, i'm just highlighting a different interpretation of the evidence.

[Dragon]

Yeah, but it's as likely that Taim's character is "naturally" that evil, if he became a DF some time ago.

Considering then the other evidence - especially the lack of any hints among important BA that Taim was turned by them - the 13 + 13 trick seems unlikely, though.

But as said, I definitely want a PoV from Taim at long last!

[GonzoTheGreat]

There is one fairly important clue to Taim's character pre-capture/release. That is the fact that when he was attacked by a couple of people who had approached him under a white flag, he used something very much like Compulsion on them.
Fun part is: this can be explained in two ways too. One could say that he was already evil, and that what he did shows this. One can also say that he was merciful, as he could also have summarily executed them.

[Dragon]

Even if it's not conclusive either, also Min's comment that "Taim has blood in his past and blood in his future" rather indicates to me that he is a generally evil man.

[Terez]

Yes, that's an unfortunate bit for the multiple times RJ said that Min's viewings are always about the future. Daved Hanlon or whatever his real name is as well.

[4Alethinos]

Who said that was a viewing? His past was known history and his future is a good surmise.

"Been There, Done That."

[Terez]

Taim's past was well known, but how would Min know that Daved Hanlon had already committed rape in the past? I suppose she could have assumed that based on what she saw of his future.

[Ieyasu]

Taim's past was well known, but how would Min know that Daved Hanlon had already committed rape in the past? I suppose she could have assumed that based on what she saw of his future.

could rape the same person more than once

[Terez]

That seems unlikely, considering he left for a new job soon after, and I also don't see how that really clears it up anyway.

[Ieyasu]

That seems unlikely, considering he left for a new job soon after, and I also don't see how that really clears it up anyway.

since she doesnt get viewing of the past as RJ has stated many times over... its not as unlikely as you seem to think.

got a better explanation?

[Terez]

Only the one I already gave - that she made an assumption based on what she saw of his future.