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irerancincpkc
06-29-2010, 03:32 AM
It looks pretty awesome (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46eGdkssp0E)... :D

Anaiya Sedai
06-29-2010, 04:32 AM
I hope it's better than the last movie...
I'm still annoyed they are splitting it into two parts.

jason wolfbrother
06-29-2010, 04:32 AM
Yes it does. although a few of the scenes in the trailer look like they should belong to part 2 but maybe I'm forgetting something ;)

Either way it looks amazing and I'll definitely be there watching it opening night if at all possible.

Sarevok
06-29-2010, 04:48 AM
Trailer looks nice. Looks like they...
Took the final battle out of the Great Hall and put in the courtyard.

I hope it's better than the last movie...
I'm still annoyed they are splitting it into two parts.
I was annoyed too, when I heard. But then I saw the Half-Blood Prince, which felt rushed. Like the director didn't have time to cram the whole book into it.
I now believe the should have split that one too, and it's a very good thing they are splitting Deathly Hallows.

Matoyak
06-29-2010, 06:50 AM
Woot...another bastardization of a beloved franchise... Yeah, the trailer looks good, but it'll suck in the end anyways.

Dammit, this made me want to read the books again. But I own none of them Sad sad day... (amazing, considering I read them each at least 3 times...except for Order of the Phoenix...Harry's too damn annoying in that one to stomach more than twice...)

Also, have any of y'all heard of the travesty that is the next game to be made on this series?
It's a third person Gears of War style shooter. Harry uses the unforgivable curses as different types of "guns". Crucio is like a machinegun, I think avada kadavra is either a bazooka or a sniper, can't remember which. And while it isn't an unforgivable curse, expelliarmus (sp) is apparently being used as a shotgun.
Yeah. I'm being dead serious, by the way.

irerancincpkc
06-29-2010, 04:29 PM
I hope it's better than the last movie...
I'm still annoyed they are splitting it into two parts.

Besides them cutting out a lot of the pensive scenes, I loved the sixth movie. The end of it had me in tears...

Zaela Sedai
06-29-2010, 05:46 PM
I'm def glad they split this one.... it needs two 3 hour movies... though I'm sure its two 2.5 hour movies. They are both done, so It's probably a 6 month split ( I hope)

The Trailer is for both Parts 1 and 2, not just part 1

Ishara
06-29-2010, 06:50 PM
Agree fully Zae - two parts is best. That way they stay true to the story as best as possible.

And yes, the trailer is for the whole movie, not just part 1.

Orc
06-29-2010, 08:10 PM
I'm def glad they split this one.... it needs two 3 hour movies... though I'm sure its two 2.5 hour movies. They are both done, so It's probably a 6 month split ( I hope)

The trailer says November and July, so 8 months.

jason wolfbrother
06-30-2010, 09:19 AM
ahhh lightbulb that would explain some scenes in the trailer that definitely didn't belong in part 1. makes more sense now ;)

Zaela Sedai
06-30-2010, 09:48 AM
My guess is it will be thanksgiving weekend and July forth weekend... so hopefully 7 months :D

Matoyak
06-30-2010, 03:32 PM
'Harry Potter' star Daniel Radcliffe will have nude scenes with costar Emma Watson in upcoming film. (http://2su.de/X8Q)
~blink~
In the upcoming movie, Yates explains, a monster tortures Harry's friend Ron (Rupert Grint (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Rupert+Grint)) with images of Harry in some sort of tryst with Hermione Granger (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Hermione+Granger) (Emma Watson (http://www.nydailynews.com/topics/Emma+Watson)), with whom Ron is passionately in love. ~blink~
That...that didn't happen in the book? At least, I...I don't remember that...but it has been a couple years...

EDIT: Another line that makes me twitch: Behind the scenes shots show Harry slow dancing with Hermione, a scene that Yates told the Telegraph is one of his favorites, and ~which does not appear in the book.~Emphasis mine.

Sarevok
06-30-2010, 03:51 PM
"We'll create something that feels very sexy and very intriguing to bring about a reaction in Rupert," Yates told the Telegraph of the scene.
My guess would be
when they stab the horcrux that's in the locker. At that point in the books, "copies" or Harry and Hermione appear from the horcrux, telling Ron how they don't need him.
It's really the only instance I can think of. Otherwise, it must be a nightmare Ron is having, that was created for the movie for whatever reason.

irerancincpkc
06-30-2010, 07:09 PM
Ah, I'm not worried. The sign of a good movie adapation is that it doesn't follow the book too closely. Look at the first two HP movies. They were slaves to the books, and are generally considered the two worst...

Matoyak
06-30-2010, 09:51 PM
Look at the first two HP movies. They were slaves to the books, and are generally considered the two worst...WUT.

tworiverswoman
06-30-2010, 11:41 PM
WUT.What he said. I've never ever understood that "don't follow the book" attitude. If you like the book enough to want to see it made into a movie, then why screw up all the things you liked? If you didn't like the book, then why bother to make it a movie?

I really liked both of the first two HP movies - BECAUSE they followed the books so closely. Sure, the Philosopher's/Sorcerer's Stone was a bit linear - but that's because it was setting up everything to follow.

I felt odd about Prisoner of Azkaban, because I liked so much of it and hated so many of the changes... What in hell did they do to Tom of the Leaky Cauldron? Jesus.

On the other hand, I loved that landscape.

jana
07-01-2010, 04:21 AM
My guess would be
when they stab the horcrux that's in the locker. At that point in the books, "copies" or Harry and Hermione appear from the horcrux, telling Ron how they don't need him.
It's really the only instance I can think of. Otherwise, it must be a nightmare Ron is having, that was created for the movie for whatever reason.


It does happen in the book. The locket/Voldpants versions of Harry and Hermione kiss and their legs intertwine, or something like that.


As for the final battle not being in the Great Hall, at least some of it is in the Great Hall. Helena Bonham Carter mentioned in an interview that she was dueling on one of the tables and accidentally fell off.


I'm super glad it's being split into 2. Snape has had way too little screen time in the first 6 movies. With only 1 DH movie he would have had about 30 seconds. Now he'll probably have 2 minutes, heh.

irerancincpkc
07-01-2010, 09:53 AM
What he said. I've never ever understood that "don't follow the book" attitude. If you like the book enough to want to see it made into a movie, then why screw up all the things you liked? If you didn't like the book, then why bother to make it a movie?


It's just that so many movie adapations of book spend so much time trying to please fans of the book that often the movie turns out poorly because that is all they worry about. A lot of things that work in novels can't work in film. It's a whole different ballgame. And the director/script writer that recogizes that, and isn't afraid to make smart changes that don't damage the integrity of the book but make the movie a better experience is a good one.

Matoyak
07-01-2010, 12:01 PM
And the director/script writer that recogizes that, and isn't afraid to make smart changes that don't damage the integrity of the book but make the movie a better experience is a good one.But how often does it not damage the integrity of the original book? How often does it NOT turn it into a complete horrid mess (Harry Potter's 3-5, Eragon, The Dark is Rising, etc.)

Also, none of what you said applies to HP 1 and 2. Not only did they very closely follow the books, but they were also good movies simply on their own terms.

irerancincpkc
07-01-2010, 12:12 PM
But how often does it not damage the integrity of the original book? How often does it NOT turn it into a complete horrid mess (Harry Potter's 3-5, Eragon, The Dark is Rising, etc.)

Also, none of what you said applies to HP 1 and 2. Not only did they very closely follow the books, but they were also good movies simply on their own terms.

For me, as long as the movie captures the spirit of the book, than it's a good adapation; some recent examples being High Fidelity, The Road, The Constant Gardener, and to go back a bit further I'd throw in the Princess Bride. And there are a lot more. I would personally suggest that there are a lot more movies screwed up because the director is afraid of pissing off the fanbase rather than movies screwed up because they weren't afraid to stray from the source material a little, in order to help visually tell the story. Harry Potter 3 captured the spirit, the tone, of the novel it was based on a million times better than the first two films did. It felt real.

Ishara
07-02-2010, 08:03 PM
Look, you have to realize that JK Rowling had creative control over ALL of the films. I have always felt that they have been faithful to the feeling of the books, if not to the actual literal content - which, let's face it, is impossible anyways.

Obviously she has the last say re: her vision, so if she's happy, so am I.

Davian93
08-04-2010, 10:21 AM
Look, you have to realize that JK Rowling had creative control over ALL of the films. I have always felt that they have been faithful to the feeling of the books, if not to the actual literal content - which, let's face it, is impossible anyways.

Obviously she has the last say re: her vision, so if she's happy, so am I.

I like the books alot more than the movies. THe only major issue I had with any of the books was the sudden emergence of the key character Deus Ex Machina in Deathly Hallows. He showed up out of nowhere on something like 3 separate occasions where it felt like Rowling had written herself into a corner (unexpected for her actually). I wonder who will play him in Hallows Part 1 & 2.

Sarevok
08-04-2010, 11:49 AM
I like the books alot more than the movies. THe only major issue I had with any of the books was the sudden emergence of the key character Deus Ex Machina in Deathly Hallows. He showed up out of nowhere on something like 3 separate occasions where it felt like Rowling had written herself into a corner (unexpected for her actually). I wonder who will play him in Hallows Part 1 & 2.

What key character are you talking about? Both that I can think of are played by the same character as all of the previous movies... :confused:

Davian93
08-04-2010, 12:18 PM
What key character are you talking about? Both that I can think of are played by the same character as all of the previous movies... :confused:

It was a joke, Sare.

I was just referring to the couple times in the novel where it looked "as if all hope was lost" and BOOM, Harry gets out of it somehow (Dobby in the Malfoy mansion, etc)

Firseal
08-04-2010, 07:28 PM
It's just that so many movie adapations of book spend so much time trying to please fans of the book that often the movie turns out poorly because that is all they worry about. A lot of things that work in novels can't work in film. It's a whole different ballgame. And the director/script writer that recogizes that, and isn't afraid to make smart changes that don't damage the integrity of the book but make the movie a better experience is a good one.

Exactly irerancincpkc (my god, I still hate typing that name) and that is exactly why the Lord of the Rings triology were made into superb movies, and yet changed much from the books, and many of the Harry Potters, which are chained too closely to their textual predecessors, feel anything from oddly paced to just plain bad.

Some very good movies were made from extremely bad books (Jaws, Stir of Echoes) precisely because they took the good elements and eliminated or changed the bad. Some very good books have been made into nightmarishly bad films (Eragon, full stop).

Translating a good book into a good movie is like translating an ancient text into a modern one. That's with a relatively unknown book. With the Harry Potters, it is like taking the Odyssey from ancient Greek to modern English, in a committee, with commerically driven managers, the entire nation of Greece breathing down the committee's neck, and doing this on time and under budget with a final product that is enjoyable and engrossing. It is not easy. Partially it is because there is a rabid, partially insane fanbase ready to rip the unwary to shreds. I'm personally surprised, at this date, that any of the Harry Potters have been decent movies given the conditions under which they have been made.

Kurtz
08-04-2010, 08:20 PM
Watched Half-Blood Prince a few days ago. Bitterly disappointed. Dreadful, awful film. Hopefully these will be better!

fdsaf3
08-04-2010, 11:11 PM
If this were another forum, I'd simply point out that 700 pages of book can't easily be transformed into a palatable movie of reasonable length, but the problem is that we're all fans of longer books with far more complexity. Comparatively speaking, Harry Potter books are almost mundane relative to the WoT books.

I'm a firm believer that content doesn't bridge medium. What works for a novel can't work if translated literally to a film or play. There just doesn't exist a way of making film which gives directors and producers the ability to be subtle and complex with all of the intricacies of plot development while keeping the film to a decent length.

Now, am I a fan of the Harry Potter movies? Not exactly. I too feel they should have split Half Blood Prince - a lot needs to happen to get Harry to his final battle with Voldemort. I think the movies are distillations of the essence of the books, though, which is a lot more than other movies based on popular book franchises can say.

Davian93
08-05-2010, 07:17 AM
I think the books are a thousand times better than the movies but I still like all the movies. I also read the books after watching all the movies that are currently out.


Note: I actually just bought all the books at a yard sale for $8 ($0.50 for each of the first 4 in trade paperback and $2 each for the final 3 in hardback). That was maybe 2 weeks ago and I just finished Deathly Hallows 2 days ago after setting aside a GGK novel to read them all.

They are rather good and the quality of the writing massively improves when she transitions from children's book to young adult/adult level writing in the final 3-4 (Goblet of Fire is more like a bridge between them IMHO)

The movies make more sense now at least.

Ishara
08-05-2010, 09:11 AM
It was a joke, Sare.

I was just referring to the couple times in the novel where it looked "as if all hope was lost" and BOOM, Harry gets out of it somehow (Dobby in the Malfoy mansion, etc)

I don't think that DEM at all! I thought it was really well thought out actually, with the mirror and with Aberforth - made good sense to me.

I think the books are a thousand times better than the movies but I still like all the movies. I also read the books after watching all the movies that are currently out.


Note: I actually just bought all the books at a yard sale for $8 ($0.50 for each of the first 4 in trade paperback and $2 each for the final 3 in hardback). That was maybe 2 weeks ago and I just finished Deathly Hallows 2 days ago after setting aside a GGK novel to read them all.

They are rather good and the quality of the writing massively improves when she transitions from children's book to young adult/adult level writing in the final 3-4 (Goblet of Fire is more like a bridge between them IMHO)

The movies make more sense now at least.

First off, BLASPHEMY!! ;) Which one are you reading now?

Second, I think her writing is actually better the more you read it. Having finished the series, you can go back and pick out extremely well done foreshadowing in the first freaking paragraph of the first book - the way she interweaves past and present is really excellent, I think.

Like Molly being a Prewitt before marriage, and her brothers being mentioned in the first chapter, but the connection not being made until book 7 in a really low key way (she gives Harry her brother Fabian's watch, and mentions it's a bit banged up because he didn't take super good care of his stuff, but not mentioning that he took down a load of Deatheaters when he was killed? Brilliant.)

The first 3 seem like kids books, but there is a wealth of knowledge there under the layers.

I always do a re-read before the movie comes out, and just finished the series again last week. Can't freaking wait for the movie!!!

On a slightly different note, I have to admit that one of the things that really bothers me about Brandon Sanderson is that he openly asserted that he thought Rowling "really screwed things up" with the last book. First, who are YOU? Second, I kind of wonder if it has soemthing to do with his faith that he would object to the ending of DH. Third, I belong to the GGK school of thought: no writer can tell another writer how to write, and should certainly never presume to think that they could do better. It's just not classy, imo.

Davian93
08-05-2010, 10:26 AM
I don't think that DEM at all! I thought it was really well thought out actually, with the mirror and with Aberforth - made good sense to me.



First off, BLASPHEMY!! ;) Which one are you reading now?

Second, I think her writing is actually better the more you read it. Having finished the series, you can go back and pick out extremely well done foreshadowing in the first freaking paragraph of the first book - the way she interweaves past and present is really excellent, I think.

Like Molly being a Prewitt before marriage, and her brothers being mentioned in the first chapter, but the connection not being made until book 7 in a really low key way (she gives Harry her brother Fabian's watch, and mentions it's a bit banged up because he didn't take super good care of his stuff, but not mentioning that he took down a load of Deatheaters when he was killed? Brilliant.)

The first 3 seem like kids books, but there is a wealth of knowledge there under the layers.

I always do a re-read before the movie comes out, and just finished the series again last week. Can't freaking wait for the movie!!!

On a slightly different note, I have to admit that one of the things that really bothers me about Brandon Sanderson is that he openly asserted that he thought Rowling "really screwed things up" with the last book. First, who are YOU? Second, I kind of wonder if it has soemthing to do with his faith that he would object to the ending of DH. Third, I belong to the GGK school of thought: no writer can tell another writer how to write, and should certainly never presume to think that they could do better. It's just not classy, imo.

I was still on Book 2 of the Fionvar Tapestry but I set it aside when I bought all the HP books. I also just bought a used copy of Ysabel in hardback for a $1 at a Goodwill store that I plan on reading at some point soon. And I still haven't tackled Lions of Al Rassan (Christmas gift) and the Last Light of the Sun. I put down Fionvar Tapestry the last time to read Under Heaven (which I really liked BTW).

I remember a couple times where it felt like DEM when reading Hallows and it surprised me as she never really resorted to that previously in the books. Ooh, the other was where Ron suddenly came back and saved Harry in the pond when he was trying to get the sword...I was like, well damn wasn't that convenient? Overall, it was an excellent book though...I dont get BS's criticisms of it. I think it ended really well and I'm hopeful that Rowling sells out and writes more books in that world.


I could maybe see how BS (as a Mormon) would object to the ending of HP but that's a bit ridiculous. Its a fantasy novel, not a political/religious statement. I hope that that is not the real reason. How could you object to that and then agree to finish WoT (a similar novel about "the Chosen One" defeating evil and possibly returning from the dead (if my faction holds up that is).

Favorite part of Deathly Hallows: When Molly takes on Bellatrix at the end...too awesome (cant wait to see the movie version of that).

Ishara
08-05-2010, 01:57 PM
I was still on Book 2 of the Fionvar Tapestry but I set it aside when I bought all the HP books. I also just bought a used copy of Ysabel in hardback for a $1 at a Goodwill store that I plan on reading at some point soon. And I still haven't tackled Lions of Al Rassan (Christmas gift) and the Last Light of the Sun. I put down Fionvar Tapestry the last time to read Under Heaven (which I really liked BTW).

You MUST read Fionavar before you read Ysabel. Ugh. What part are you at in the Wandering Fire? I'm getting all introspective and melancholy just thinking about it!!

I remember a couple times where it felt like DEM when reading Hallows and it surprised me as she never really resorted to that previously in the books. Ooh, the other was where Ron suddenly came back and saved Harry in the pond when he was trying to get the sword...I was like, well damn wasn't that convenient? Overall, it was an excellent book though...I dont get BS's criticisms of it. I think it ended really well and I'm hopeful that Rowling sells out and writes more books in that world.
Ha. Yeah, that was definitely a bit over the top. Well justified, but a bit over the top. I liked what happened after that though! FWIW, her website has lots of "forward" story bits to it, like Luna doesn't hook up with Neville like we all thought, but travels the world exploring; George never marries; Dean's dad (the one he says left when he was a baby in DH), was actually a wizard who was killed by Voldemort in the first reign of terror ... cool stuff like that.

Favorite part of Deathly Hallows: When Molly takes on Bellatrix at the end...too awesome (cant wait to see the movie version of that). Ugh. This was the one part of the book that I thought was totally over the top and almost unbelievable. The only reason I was able to swallow it was because of who Molly's brothers were...m'eh.

Davian93
08-05-2010, 02:25 PM
Ugh. This was the one part of the book that I thought was totally over the top and almost unbelievable. The only reason I was able to swallow it was because of who Molly's brothers were...m'eh.

I actually thought it was built up really well. All those months of sitting at the Burrow worrying over all her kids and husband and Harry, the scene where she was crying imagining each of them dead, her just losing Fred and based on her lineage, it totaly made sense that she just snapped and kicked some serious ass there. Seeing Ginny almost die was believable to make her crack...she was very very close to her only daughter and youngest child afterall (remember, she didn't even want Ginny involved in the battle).

Ha. Yeah, that was definitely a bit over the top. Well justified, but a bit over the top. I liked what happened after that though! FWIW, her website has lots of "forward" story bits to it, like Luna doesn't hook up with Neville like we all thought, but travels the world exploring; George never marries; Dean's dad (the one he says left when he was a baby in DH), was actually a wizard who was killed by Voldemort in the first reign of terror ... cool stuff like that.

Yeah, I went and read all of that stuff on her webpage afterward...Shh, dont tell anyone but apparently Dumbledore was gay!?!?

Matoyak
08-06-2010, 08:18 PM
Yeah, I went and read all of that stuff on her webpage afterward...Shh, dont tell anyone but apparently Dumbledore was gay!?!?:eek::eek::eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I remember that causing a huge freakout in my high school. Meh. Dude was gay, so what?

Uno
08-06-2010, 10:25 PM
:eek::eek::eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I remember that causing a huge freakout in my high school. Meh. Dude was gay, so what?

High school when that came out? Oh...you were actually born after EOTW was published. Great stuff. I'm old.

Matoyak
08-07-2010, 03:46 AM
High school when that came out? Oh...you were actually born after EOTW was published. Great stuff. I'm old.
Heh heh heh. I seem to cause people to say this often.

tEotW: January 15, 1990
Mato: March 29, 1991

:D

Davian93
08-07-2010, 02:43 PM
:eek::eek::eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I remember that causing a huge freakout in my high school. Meh. Dude was gay, so what?

I was commenting on the overreaction more than anything. I agree with you...who gives a crap?

Dude walks around in colorful robes all day and this was a shock?!?


And damn, Maty is really young.

Kurtz
08-07-2010, 06:02 PM
:eek::eek::eek:

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I remember that causing a huge freakout in my high school. Meh. Dude was gay, so what?

Was more that he was allowed near kids.

Davian93
08-07-2010, 09:20 PM
Was more that he was allowed near kids.

Which is probably why he had no issues repeatedly raping Harry, Draco and Ron...and its the major reason all 3 of them along with Neville turned out to be Gay themselves...

Neilbert
08-08-2010, 03:01 AM
Dude walks around in colorful robes all day and this was a shock?!?


Anyone who was surprised by Dumbledore being gay needs to go back and read the first time he is described. It's downright flamboyant.

On a slightly different note, I have to admit that one of the things that really bothers me about Brandon Sanderson is that he openly asserted that he thought Rowling "really screwed things up" with the last book.First, who are YOU?

Well, he's a rather successful writer who also teaches writing... I thought you knew this?

I thought that the last book came out of left field too. It really grated on me, and didn't seem to connect much at all to the rest of them. The camping adventures segment was boring, the Deathly Hollows came out of nowhere, some of the writing literally made me stop and cringe, Harry faking his death in front of Voldermont was pathetic...
My first impression after reading it was exactly that she really screwed things up with the last book.

Second, I kind of wonder if it has soemthing to do with his faith that he would object to the ending of DH

I highly doubt it.

Third, I belong to the GGK school of thought: no writer can tell another writer how to write, and should certainly never presume to think that they could do better. It's just not classy, imo.

Some people feel the opposite. Ever hear of a writers workshop?

Matoyak
08-08-2010, 06:32 AM
I was commenting on the overreaction more than anything. I agree with you...who gives a crap?Oh yeah, I know what you were saying.And damn, Maty is really young.Awh, Maty? C'mon, there's a much easier short form of Matoyak out there already. ;):)Was more that he was allowed near kids.I repeat: So?Which is probably why he had no issues repeatedly raping Harry, Draco and Ron...and its the major reason all 3 of them along with Neville turned out to be Gay themselves...Hey, don't give the slashfic writers any more free material, they do well enough on there own, I'm sure. :eek: ;) :eek:

GonzoTheGreat
08-08-2010, 06:40 AM
C'mon, there's a much easier short form of Matoyak out there already. ;):)Yak?

Matoyak
08-08-2010, 07:11 AM
Yak?~facepalm~

Edit: I considered using this (http://i297.photobucket.com/albums/mm232/mintkiller/facepalm.jpg) graphic, but decided that was too aggressive, and I couldn't find one I liked better, so eh. Sorry, all you get is a word-reply, no graphic.

yks 6nnetu hing
08-09-2010, 08:25 AM
You MUST read Fionavar before you read Ysabel. Ugh. What part are you at in the Wandering Fire? I'm getting all introspective and melancholy just thinking about it!!

gotta say... I did not like Ysabel. A lot of the time I kept feeling like Kay was desperately trying to be hip and cool... but failing worse than anyone's dad. Besides, whenever I read Kay, he makes me think of Eco and while most of the time their subject matters are different enough to not cause negative comparisons either way... Ysabel was not the case, it made me think of Foucault's Pendulum AND The Mysterious Flame of Queen Loana and how much awesomer those books are in encorporating (modern) technology into fantasy-ish work and dissecting the teenage mind, respectively, plus having very complicated relationships in both books- again TONS better done than in Ysabel.


aaaanyways, I've been planning a re-read of HP for a while. awesome that the movie's finally coming out...

also, how come no-one's commented yet???
http://beautyeditor.ca/wp-content/uploads/Emma-Watson-short-hair.jpg

Davian93
08-09-2010, 10:24 AM
Now she really looks like a 12 year old boy...before, at least she had long hair.

GonzoTheGreat
08-09-2010, 10:27 AM
Now she really looks like a 12 year old boy...before, at least she had long hair.You're into 12 year old long haired boys?

Oh! :eek:

Davian93
08-09-2010, 10:37 AM
You're into 12 year old long haired boys?

Oh! :eek:

I didn't care for her before either...too young and too boyish looking. Not big into kids, chief.