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Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 09:38 AM
So, assuming you lazy bums do not follow my Twitter and Facebook feeds, I thought I'd post this here for discussion.

So, I wrote this:

Reading Winter's Heart - a passage caught my eye, leaving me with this question: when did Taim first use the True Power? :)

Peter wrote this:

Someone mentioned something similar to this to Brandon on Twitter this week, and Brandon responded.

Then I explained my point this way:

I'm considering a theory that the darkness seen around Rand is connected to his use of the True Power. Then, in Winter's heart prologue, Elayne describes Taim as he entered her room: "He was tall, nearly as tall as Rand, with a hooked nose and dark eyes like augurs, a physically powerful man who moved with something of a ... See MoreWarder's deadly grace, but shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out; not real shadows, but an air of imminent violence that seemed palpable enough to soak up light." I jokingly connected those two and then wondered if Taim had channeled the True Power. Speculation built on speculation, wrapped in a dark shadow.

Peter wrote this:


The quote referred to Taim, WH, and the dark aura, and related it to TGS. Brandon just said something like he was wondering when anyone was going to notice that.

But I'll leave finding the exact interaction to you.


Luckers wrote this:

Brandon's answer when someone pointed out the similarity between Taim and Rand was @HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

So then I went and looked up @HBFFerreira, who wrote this a day or two ago:


Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

"... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

I'm re-reading the series, and just started WH. The effect was awfully familiar to Rand's. Not a coincidence, I guess. :-)


My read on it - my inclination and apparently others to tie the dark aura to Rand's channeling the TP looks to be on target (although, this connection is pretty...obvious as it comes about immediately after he channels it...so not a huge accomplishment by any means to connect the two.) However, while I like to make seemingly thin connections between events and in most cases, this connection that I made and that HBFFerreira appears to have made two days prior, from Brandon's response, would seem to also be on target. Although, not a terribly huge stretch either - Taim having channeled the True Power. However, it would suggest it came prior to Taim entering that room - which now makes me want to go back and read prior to it to see if we are shown that moment, without realizing it. Something happening that couldn't be or wasn't detected (I can just hear Taim Killed Asmodean theorists now :)).

So, the theory remains, Taim has channeled the True Power, but Brandon has helped the theory along with his tweet. Surely, Taim using the True Power will come into play during these last two books.

Oatman
07-23-2010, 09:44 AM
It's possible. But isnt there a passage where it is mentioned that Moridin has exclusive use of the TP at the moment? Maybe it was that he used it exclusively though... whatever.
Either way, I was under the impression that not all the forsaken currently have access to the TP, else Moggy and Sem could have escaped captivity immediately(Asmo excluded because of black line severing.) It would be kind of wierd for Taim to have access when they don't.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 09:48 AM
Connection between Taim and Moridin can be theorized - so you could go Taim as Padawan to Moridin. However, while the incident of True Power usage would have come before Ishamael was named Nae'blis, I don't see that the DO wouldn't allow access to it to those he chooses. From quotes from RJ, it's a matter of wanting access and the DO allowing - I don't think there is some way for Moridin to stop the DO from giving Taim access.

Oatman
07-23-2010, 09:55 AM
Connection or not, Ishmael isnt the one who grants access so that really shouldnt matter.
The DO granting it to those he chooses is pretty much my point. He has his chosen forsaken, yet so far as we know only one of them currently has access to the TP. If he hasn't granted it to the, why grant it to Taim? Obviously it's possible, but to me at least he is way down the list of potential users.

Terez
07-23-2010, 10:03 AM
Well, there's always Linda's Taimidin theory...

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2010, 10:31 AM
But isnt there a passage where it is mentioned that Moridin has exclusive use of the TP at the moment?Yes, there is.
“Nevertheless, Sammael, or someone disguised as him, gave orders to Myrddraal, and they obeyed, so it was one of the Chosen.” Moridin scanned around the chairs as though he could detect who it had been. Black saa trickled across his blue eyes in a continuous stream. She had no regrets that the True Power was limited to his use alone, now. The price was much too high. Ishamael had certainly been at least half insane, and he still was as Moridin. How long before she could remove him?That's a bit after the relevant Taim quote, of course, so it does not say much about what Taim may have done right before he came to ogle Elayne.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 10:59 AM
She had no regrets that the True Power was limited to his use alone, now.

As far as she knows, she is not allowed to use it and it is her understanding that Moridin alone can use it - which says nothing about whom the DO will allow to use it should the request be made.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 11:26 AM
When did it happen? Did we "see" it?

Luckers
07-23-2010, 11:38 AM
A more detailed account from what I sent you on facebook.

HBFFerreira: @BrandonSandrson I'm re-reading the series, and just started WH. The effect was awfully familiar to Rand's. Not a coincidence, I guess. :-)

@HBFFerreira You're the first to notice that that I've seen.

HBFFerreira: @BrandonSandrson Thanks! TGS: Rand's dark aura was an effect of channeling TP, right? WH, prologue: didn't Taim cast a similar aura?

HBFFerreira: @BrandonSandrson "... shadows seemed to follow him, as if half the lamps in the room had gone out. Not real shadows, but..." So... RAFO? :-)

Kimon
07-23-2010, 11:47 AM
When did it happen? Did we "see" it?

Slayer's mystery man would certainly seem a possibility. I'm not sure if the chronology would exactly match, but it should be close, and of course, Slayer obviously had to meet the mystery man at least twice- once to receive the mission, and again to report its failure. If Taim is using the TP, he probably isn't using it often as the appearance of the saa would become very problematic for a man pretending to be a lightfriend.

Pevara notes that there was an "air of darkness" around Taim in the epilogue of KoD as well, and of course the eyes like augers.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 11:52 AM
BrandonSandrson: @HBFFerreira RAFO, though that is the best theory I read before I became involved in this. It's very credible.


This relates to a different question @HBFFerreira wrote. If you notice, Brandon's response occurs 5:58 PM Jul 19th (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/18946184207) via TweetDeck (http://www.tweetdeck.com/) in reply to HBFFerreira (http://twitter.com/HBFFerreira/status/18826023608)

Here is @HBFFerreira's initial question @BrandonSandrson (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson) Was the attempt on Rand at the end of TPoD caused by Torval learning his plan to cleanse the taint? Did Moridin order it? 4:03 AM Jul 18th (http://twitter.com/HBFFerreira/status/18826023608) via web in reply to BrandonSandrson (http://twitter.com/BrandonSandrson/status/18797807293)

Luckers
07-23-2010, 11:54 AM
Ah. Removed it to save confusion.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 11:56 AM
Meeting with Slayer - could be, but why wouldn't he use Saidin to hide his presence?

WinespringBrother
07-23-2010, 12:01 PM
Interesting theory. The only comment I have is that I don't think it supports Taim killed Asmodean, evidence-wise, since the first mention that there is a True Power isn't until ACOS:

TITLE: Crown of Swords CH: 20 - Patterns Within Patterns

The watcher followed and listened. They had no idea. The True Power, drawn directly from the Great Lord, could neither be seen nor detected except by who wielded it. Black flecks floated across his vision. There was a price, to be sure, one that grew with each use, but he had always been willing to pay the price when it was necessary. Being filled with the True Power was almost like kneeling beneath Shayol Ghul, basking in the Great Lord's glory. The glory was worth the pain.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 12:03 PM
I don't think the DO would allow Taim access to then kill Asmodean in such a way that would prevent him access to the soul of this traitor.

Kimon
07-23-2010, 12:05 PM
Meeting with Slayer - could be, but why wouldn't he use Saidin to hide his presence?

Slayer's description of the psychological effects of the weaves seems odd in of itself.

His patron of the moment was waiting for him. A man, he was sure of that much, but Luc could not look at him. It was not as it was with those slimy Gray Men, whom you just did not notice. He had killed one of them, once, in the White Tower itself. They felt cold and empty to the touch. It had been like killing a corpse. No, this man had done something with the Power so Luc's eyes slid from him like water sliding down glass. Even at the corner of the eye, he was a blur.

This sounds like something more than just a similar, albeit, saidin variant, of what Mesaana uses to conceal herself. Perhaps he wrapped himself in TP.

Luckers
07-23-2010, 12:08 PM
I think we're jumping the gun to conclude this means TP touching. We've met many Forsaken, whom have touched the TP, without seeing the warping.

I wonder if this is not more of a subverion of ones soul. In effect once you open yourself to the Dark One enough he can warp you. I mean it seems unlikely that all the Shadows servants from the Age of Legends were meglomaniacal monsters. Modern Darkfriends are nasty coz that's how recruitment occurs, but back then it was different.

Could this be the tainting effect of the Dark One on those who have walked deep enough in shadow to expose themselves?

Kimon
07-23-2010, 12:09 PM
I wonder if the references to eyes like augers, which admittedly does not always come with people who could be using the TP, is nonetheless a hint at its use. An auger is after all a tool used for boring, and the TP links one to the Bore and to the DO. Almost as if the word itself was a subtle hint that when we look into their eyes, it is the Bore that we see.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 12:18 PM
I think we're jumping the gun to conclude this means TP touching. We've met many Forsaken, whom have touched the TP, without seeing the warping.


The curiosity is more an exercise of "if". However, what you have brought up doesn't discount the possibility, as the darkness/shadow might be indicative of recent usage of the TP, versus totality of usage. Rand notices a darkness around Ishamael while fighting him at the Stone, another possible connection.

Could this be the tainting effect of the Dark One on those who have walked deep enough in shadow to expose themselves?

It could be - although, as you mentioned, if this were the case wouldn't the other Forsaken have similar characteristics? I say this acknowledging that the author doesn't have to give us such awareness from the PoV of those looking at Forsaken if he chooses not to - so by itself, it isn't proof either way.

GonzoTheGreat
07-23-2010, 12:19 PM
I don't think there have been any claims of such a Darkness around the lady Selene, for instance. Hurin did smell that something was dodgy, though.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 12:32 PM
A simple explanation as I mentioned above would be that the darkness/shadow is indicative of recent usage, which would be suggestive that Taim used the TP sometime during TPoD, if it were true.

As with Ishamael, Rand doesn't notice the darkness every time he fights Ishamael, just in that specific moment. I will go back and look and quote that when I have a some time.

One Armed Gimp
07-23-2010, 12:49 PM
I think we're jumping the gun to conclude this means TP touching. We've met many Forsaken, whom have touched the TP, without seeing the warping.

That's hardly relevant as we have met one person who has only touched it once and has the warping. Though he is a bit special.

I would lean towards the recent usage theory on this, if it is caused by using the TP.

It will be interesting to see if Rand still has this darkness around him after his come to Jesus moment. I am also very curious about the "consequences" it will have.

WinespringBrother
07-23-2010, 12:50 PM
There are 2 mentions of darkness/shadows around Taim, from the viewpoints of Elayne in WH and Pevara in KOD. However, according to the WOT Chronology, the appearance in WH was 2 days after Taim was last seen on screen at the end of POD (Min viewpoint), with no notice of darkness/shadows.

IIRC There were 2 mentions of darkness around Rand in TGS, though I may have forgot others, in viewpoints of Tuon and Nynaeve.

So to sum up, there are 4 viewpoints with mentions of shadows/darkness around Rand and Taim, all from actual or potential female channelers. In Min's viewpoints there don't seem to be any mentions of this darkness, though she saw Taim fairly shortly before Elayne did, and has been with Rand after his darkness manifested. That might be important, though I can't see how.

ETA: I mention this since while Logain has warned Rand about Taim, he didn't mention this darkness, so maybe he didn't notice it either.

Ieyasu
07-23-2010, 12:59 PM
There are 2 mentions of darkness/shadows around Taim, from the viewpoints of Elayne in WH and Pevara in KOD. However, according to the WOT Chronology, the appearance in WH was 2 days after Taim was last seen on screen at the end of POD (Min viewpoint), with no notice of darkness/shadows.

IIRC There were 2 mentions of darkness around Rand in TGS, though I may have forgot others, in viewpoints of Tuon and Nynaeve.

So to sum up, there are 4 viewpoints with mentions of shadows/darkness around Rand and Taim, all from actual or potential female channelers. In Min's viewpoints there don't seem to be any mentions of this darkness, though she saw Taim fairly shortly before Elayne did, and has been with Rand after his darkness manifested. That might be important, though I can't see how.

ETA: I mention this since while Logain has warned Rand about Taim, he didn't mention this darkness, so maybe he didn't notice it either.

Cadsuane noticed it immediately (and several times afterwards during her exile). Tam also said the same thing after his meeting with Rand so it is not limited to only females and only channelers.

greatwolf
07-23-2010, 01:14 PM
~gloats~

Didn't I say Taim was rather peculiar? An d far more interesting than Asmodean?


Ok. I've considered the option that Moridin or one of the forsaken entered the room with Taim and co, but Elayne's description doesn't back this. It seems certain that Taim has used the TP. The only non forsaken we know to have done so.


Funny enough, no one seems to connect with the fact that the only other forsaken we know to have used the TP admitted the fact in the same book! A book that drew a lot of connections between Taim and Demandred. Almost as much as LoC.


The question is why would RJ go for such a big red herring? It seems such a big waste and quite unlike him. From BS post on twitter, he knows why and he's going to make us beg for it. Meaning it'll be worth the begging.

BTW, Rand may have used the TP more than once. We've seen experienced users like Moridin who were not aware they were channeling the TP. I doubt Rand would be as aware.

Terez
07-23-2010, 01:17 PM
I wonder if the references to eyes like augers, which admittedly does not always come with people who could be using the TP, is nonetheless a hint at its use. An auger is after all a tool used for boring, and the TP links one to the Bore and to the DO. Almost as if the word itself was a subtle hint that when we look into their eyes, it is the Bore that we see.
Sorilea's eyes are described this way. :)

Marie Curie 7
07-23-2010, 02:30 PM
My read on it - my inclination and apparently others to tie the dark aura to Rand's channeling the TP looks to be on target (although, this connection is pretty...obvious as it comes about immediately after he channels it...so not a huge accomplishment by any means to connect the two.)

Brandon already confirmed at a signing last fall that the dark aura was due in part to the use of the True Power:

The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubrey Pham reporting

The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There is an implication here that the aura is partly due to Rand's link with Moridin. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 03:16 PM
Partially supports the idea that we would see the same type of phenomenon or a variation of it on others that have used the True Power.

Tamyrlin
07-23-2010, 03:50 PM
The Gathering Storm Book Tour, Dallas Borders 14 November 2009 - Aubrey Pham reporting

The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There is an implication here that the aura is partly due to Rand's link with Moridin. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

This appears to be paraphrased - maybe Aubrey will see this and let us know. I can't tell if Brandon said the second part, that the other side of it is Rand's link with Moridin, but it does make sense that the combination of the two are creating the specific type of affect that we are seeing.

Marie Curie 7
07-23-2010, 04:02 PM
This appears to be paraphrased - maybe Aubrey will see this and let us know. I can't tell if Brandon said the second part, that the other side of it is Rand's link with Moridin, but it does make sense that the combination of the two are creating the specific type of affect that we are seeing.

Part of this is my mistake...I didn't notice that the footnotes get added in when copying and pasting from the database.

The report from Aubree is just this part (and here's a link to the original report (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=75147#poststop)):

The black/dark aura around Rand is partially, but not entirely, an effect of True Power usage. There will be consequences from Rand's True Power use.

The other part that I quoted, "There is an implication here that the aura is partly due to Rand's link with Moridin," is a footnote that Terez added. Sorry about that.

FelixPax
07-23-2010, 08:41 PM
The other part that I quoted, "There is an implication here that the aura is partly due to Rand's link with Moridin," is a footnote that Terez added. Sorry about that.

Wonder if Mordeth has an aura or not?


When Fortuona met Rand at Falme, it felt mood wise similar to an earlier scene when Rand, Mat, Perrin met Mordeth in Shadar Logoth. (tEotW, Ch.19). Isn't that partially the 'evil' which Fortuona noticed? The evil of Shadar Logoth within Rand now?

It's not like the twin evils wound on Rand's side were fixed perfectly. He's felt burning, heat, aching coming from those wounds repeatedly, for books & books. Part of Rand's darkness stems from that unhealed evil Mordeth wound. Ditto the wound of evil Ishamael (Moridin) caused earlier. Plus whatever outcome occurs in tGS book from Rand's use of the True Power.



Basically Rand's one mess-up individual at this point medically. Oh, and Moridin wants to destroy his soul, too. Is Moridin thinking along the lines of Isam-Luc --> Moridin-Rand to do that deed?


Hurin did smell that something was dodgy, though.

Gonzo, they were in a Mirror World of the future. Besides all of them smelled of evil even Lorial, Hurin and Rand. Selene was not alone at all. :p

Hurin blinked incredulously. “You mean to say, my Lady, I’ve been smelling where those Darkfriends are going to be? The Light help me, I wouldn’t like that. It’s bad enough smelling where violence has been, without smelling where it will be, too. There can’t be many spots where there won’t be some kind of violence, some time. It would drive me crazy, like as not. That place we just left nearly did. I could smell it all the time, there, killing and hurting, and the vilest evil you could think of. I could even smell it on us. On all of us.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 17 "Choice" - Rand point of view, with Hurin, Loial, Selene

Loial had not even killed a Trolloc up to this point in the story. That event occurred in Cairhien, just before Selene saves Loial & Rand from the rest of the Trollocs.

Ieyasu
07-23-2010, 10:22 PM
Gonzo, they were in a Mirror World of the future. Besides all of them smelled of evil even Lorial, Hurin and Rand. Selene was not alone at all. :p



Loial had not even killed a Trolloc up to this point in the story. That event occurred in Cairhien, just before Selene saves Loial & Rand from the rest of the Trollocs.

No actually, the scene appears in TGS when Rand hoists him up and he delivers the msg that the boarderlanders want to meet with him in 'the box'

Terez
07-23-2010, 10:27 PM
Part of this is my mistake...I didn't notice that the footnotes get added in when copying and pasting from the database.
Only when you are in editing mode. If you're on the webpage, it just copies the number.

Luckers
07-24-2010, 03:04 AM
It could be - although, as you mentioned, if this were the case wouldn't the other Forsaken have similar characteristics? I say this acknowledging that the author doesn't have to give us such awareness from the PoV of those looking at Forsaken if he chooses not to - so by itself, it isn't proof either way.

I meant as in this is the tainting actually in the process of happening. The Forsaken would have long since been tainted to that level.

IamChosen
07-24-2010, 03:39 AM
So then I went and looked up @HBFFerreira

That would be me. :)

After reading The Gathering Storm, the description of the darkness around Taim rang all kinds of bells. :)

I don't think the DO would allow Taim access to then kill Asmodean in such a way that would prevent him access to the soul of this traitor.

We do not know Asmodean was killed with Balefire. For all we know, he could have been stabbed and the body disposed of. To kill him with the True Power, one would only need to do a trick like Chesmal's and then toss the body into a gateway.

But I do not believe Taim killed Asmodean, because it was not "obvious" at that point, like RJ said it was (he hadn't shown up yet).

Heck, for all we know, Sorilea killed Asmodean. :)

I think we're jumping the gun to conclude this means TP touching. We've met many Forsaken, whom have touched the TP, without seeing the warping.

Yes. In fact, only Ishamael/Moridin reveals the same dark aura.

Lately I've considered that Taim may be Moridin. His appearence is consistent, chronologically, with Aran'gar and Osan'gar's. I doubt the Great Lord would have taken longer to ressurect Ishamael, the only one who serves for belief instead of lust for power (and the one who'll be Naeblis over and over again until balefire puts an end to it).

Anyway, Moridin is quite inactive for a while. This coincides with the early stages of Taim's task of recruiting and teaching. After Taim rises to power, Moridin is seen more freely.

To cap it off, in TGS Graendal is transported to a "black stone fortress" she assumes must be in the Blight, for the heat and because she doesn't know of any such fortress anywhere. The fortress seems like the Black Tower.

Taim often uses Moridin's colors, their personality isn't that dissimilar, and Taim seems to wield more power than most. The "so-called Aiel" comment was a red-flag for Age of Legends-ness-y.

Personally, I do not like this scenario, and I'll explain why below, but at this point, it seems plausible. He'd have to disguise the saas, thoughg, but I guess that's not too hard.

Could this be the tainting effect of the Dark One on those who have walked deep enough in shadow to expose themselves?

I doubt that... No matter how far Rand fell, we still saw a lot more (both in quantity and quality) sicker puppies than him. People like Kadere should perpetually carry a dark bulb around them then. :)

Didn't I say Taim was rather peculiar? And far more interesting than Asmodean?

He is. My favourite villain. :)

Ok. I've considered the option that Moridin or one of the forsaken entered the room with Taim and co, but Elayne's description doesn't back this. It seems certain that Taim has used the TP. The only non forsaken we know to have done so.

Who's to say Taim is not Chosen? There's not an impedment to the Great Lord naming new Chosen in this Age. For his power, for what he did, if Taim went to Shayol Ghul to submit (which he probably did), I have little doubt he was inducted into an otherwise thinning rank.

Also, remember the 11 chairs in the Chosen meeting at Tel'aran'rhiod. There are more Chosen around, I hope.

My first theory on Taim was that he was someone like Raolin Darksbane, a Dark/Chosen False Dragon born again to Let the Lord of Chaos Rule.

Whatever the story behind him, even if he ends up a victim of the gun we saw in act 1 (*), I truly hope he's an individual character, not some other in disguise. That's why I wouldn't like him being Moridin.

And if he is Chosen, then what is his Name, you ask? M'Hael would be priceless. :)

(*) - 13 channelers, 13 Myrdraal - someone has to be/have been a victim of that! In fact, I believe Taim has 13 Myrdraal living in the Black Tower for his convenience. How else would he turn almost every one of his recruits? :)

Actually, I remember The Shadow Rising, where the questioned Black Ajah told two stories: being sent to Tanchico to look for something important (the Sad Bracelets) and to break out Mazrim Taim and set him off on the world as a false Rand. We always assumed that because the first was true, the latter was false... maybe they were both true, but by the time they released Taim, either he had other plans, or one of the Chosen or the Great Lord did. Or, for all we know, he could have been turned by 13 channelers and 13 Myrdraal then.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2010, 05:04 AM
Gonzo, they were in a Mirror World of the future. Besides all of them smelled of evil even Lorial, Hurin and Rand. Selene was not alone at all. :pI was thinking of the bit right after that which you quoted, actually.
Hurin blinked incredulously. "You mean to say, my Lady, I've been smelling where those Darkfriends are going to be? The Light help me, I wouldn't like that. It's bad enough smelling where violence has been, with out smelling where it will be, too. There can't be many spots where there won't be some kind of violence, some time. It would drive me crazy, like as not. That place we just left nearly did. I could smell it all the time, there, killing and hurting, and the vilest evil you could think of. I could even smell it on us. On all of us. Even on you, my Lady, if you'll forgive me for saying so. It was just that place, twisting me the way it twisted your eye." He gave himself a shake. "I'm glad we're out of there. I can't get it out of my nostrils yet, all the way."The obvious reason why he can't get it out of his nostrils all the way is that he is smelling Lanfear.

FelixPax
07-24-2010, 09:48 AM
No actually, the scene appears in TGS when Rand hoists him up and he delivers the msg that the boarderlanders want to meet with him in 'the box'

There is no 'the scene', but 'multiples scenes' expressing this new darkness within Rand show up physically. From who's point of view do we readers see this growing darkness within Rand?


Cadsuane, in Chapter 23 'A Warp in the Air'
Nynaeve, in Chapter 33 'A Conversation with the Dragon'
Fortuona, in Chapter 35 'A Halo of Darkness'
Nynaeve, in Chapter 44 'Scents Unknowns'



All those scenes above can be contrasted with the scene I quoted previously, found in The Great Hunt book:


Hurin blinked incredulously. “You mean to say, my Lady, I’ve been smelling where those Darkfriends are going to be? The Light help me, I wouldn’t like that. It’s bad enough smelling where violence has been, without smelling where it will be, too. There can’t be many spots where there won’t be some kind of violence, some time. It would drive me crazy, like as not. That place we just left nearly did. I could smell it all the time, there, killing and hurting, and the vilest evil you could think of. I could even smell it on us. On all of us.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 17 "Choice" - Rand point of view, with Hurin, Loial, Selene

The evil Hurin smelled on Rand in 'The Great Hunt' is different from the evil smelled originating from Rand in 'The Gathering Storm'.

"Why only you?" Rand asked quietly.

"Well," Hurin said, sighing. "They did tell you--" He hesitated, seeming distracted by something. He sniffed audibly. "Now that ... that's strange. Never smelled that before."

"What?" Rand asked.

"I don't know," Hurin said. "The air ... it smells like a lot of death, a lot of violence, only not. It's darker. More terrible." He shuddered visibly. Hurin's ability to smell violence was one of those oddities that the Tower couldn't explain. Not something related to the Power, yet obliviously not quite natural either."

Rand didn't seem to care what Hurin smelled. "Tell me why they sent only you, Hurin."


The Gathering Storm, Chapter "Scents Unknown" - Nynaeve point of view

This coming from a man rode next to both Ingtar and Selene, a Darkfriend and a Chosen. Whatever evil Hurin smelled, it does not originate from the Dark One; but another source.



Mordeth?



Padan Fain seems to claim as much to Egwene, Rand in Fal Dara:

“Soon comes the day all shall be free.
Even you, and even me.
Soon comes the day all shall die.
Surely you, but never I.”

He let his arm fall, and his eyes rose to stare intently at an angle up into the darkness. A crooked grin twisting his mouth, he chuckled deep in his throat as if whatever he saw was amusing. “Mordeth knows more than all of you. Mordeth knows.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 3 'Friends and Enemies' - Rand point of view with Egwene, Padan Fain

In essence, Padan Fain claims Mordeth knows future outcomes. Just as Mordeth himself earlier said as much to Rand, Perrin, Mat in person:


“So.” “It is decided.”
“You are all dead!” he cried. “All dead!”
“You are all dead!”





Look at what the then Amyrlin Seat Siuan, claims about Shadar Logoth and ta'veren being combined together?

“Shadar Logoth! Light, why did you ever let them get near that place. Every stone of it is tainted. There isn’t a pebble safe to carry away. Light help us, if Mordeth touched the boy . . . ” The Amyrlin sounded as though she were strangling. “If that happened, the world would be doomed.”


The Great Hunt, Chapter 5 'The Shadow in Shienar' - Moiraine point of view, with Siuan in Fal Dara

Later Padan Fain Mordeth in Far Madding did more than simply touch Rand al'Thor; he wounded Rand al'Thor with a dagger originating from Shadar Logoth.


Curiously, an explanation of Rand's current state can be partially seen in Moiraine's comments about Padan Fain being touched by Mordeth:

“He’s a Darkfriend.”

“More than that. Worse than that. Padan Fain was the Dark One’s creature to the depths of his soul, but I believe that in Shadar Logoth he fell afoul of Mordeth, who was as vile in fighting the Shadow as ever the Shadow itself was. Mordeth tried to consume Fain’s soul, to have a human body again, but found a soul that had been touched directly by the Dark One, and what resulted . . . What resulted was neither Padan Fain nor Mordeth, but something far more evil, a blend of the two. Fain—let us call him that—is more dangerous than you can believe. You might not have survived such a meeting, and if you had, you might have been worse than turned to the Shadow.”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 49 "What Was Meant To Be" - Rand point of view, with Moiraine


Whereas, Padan Fain had been directly touched by the Dark One; Rand al'Thor has been spoken to by the Creator. Yet each has been additionally touched by Mordeth....




Padan Fain and Rand al'Thor are opposing symbolic fraternal twins. :eek: Each at war with one another, and the Dark One.

Yes, that is my ongoing current hypothesis. Rand the embodiment of Light + Mordeth; Fain the embodiment of Shadow + Mordeth. And yes, even Padan Fain complains about Dreams which are not his.


Moridin is less complex, as he represents the Dark One as Nae'blis. Neither the Light nor Mordeth has touched or changed Moridin's mind. Moridin's own complexity arises from other causes, not related to the Light or Mordeth.




Rand's war against Mordeth:

“Mordeth,” Rand said. His eyes were locked to Toram Riatin and the skinny fellow. “His name is Padan Fain, and there are one hundred thousand golden crowns on his head.”

Caraline nearly dropped her goblet. “Queens have been ransomed for less. What did he do?”

“He ravaged my home because it was my home.” Rand’s face was frozen, his voice ice. “He brought Trollocs to kill my friends because they were my friends. He is a Darkfriend, and a dead man.” Those last words came through clenched teeth. Punch splashed to the carpet as the silver goblet bent in his gloved fist.

A Crown of Sword, Chapter 35 "Into the Woods" - Min point of view, with Rand, Caraline, and Mordeth.

Each wants the other dead...


Mordeth's war against Rand al'Thor

Fain paced; he had to move. Al’Thor’s downfall had to be his doing—his!—not the Chosen’s. How could he hurt the man again, hurt to the heart?

Lord of Chaos, Chapter 28 "Letters" - Padan Fain Mordeth point of view





Each has experienced a crisis of memory and identity, first Padan Fain, and then only later Rand al'Thor.

Of course, no one called it Aridhol any longer, but Shadar Logoth. Where the Shadow Waits. An apt name. So much had changed. Even himself. Padan Fain. Mordeth. Ordeith. Sometimes he was uncertain which name was really his, who he really was. One thing was sure. He was not what anyone thought. Those who believed they knew him were badly mistaken. He was transfigured, now. A force unto himself, and beyond any other power. They would all learn, eventually.

The Fires of Heaven, Prologue "The First Sparks Fall" - Padan Fain Mordeth point of view

Perwyn and his mother both shied at the sight of the Myrddraal, of course, but the boy recovered first and reached Fain while the woman was still trying to find her breath.

“Master Mordeth, Master Mordeth,” the boy piped, dancing from foot to foot in his red-and-white coat, “I have news you wanted.”

Mordeth. Had he used that name? Sometimes he could not recall what name he had used, what name was his. Sheathing the dagger beneath his coat, he put on a warm smile. “And what news would that be now, lad?”


The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 28 "Letters" - The man formerly known as Padan Fain point of view, who is sometimes called Mordeth


Rand al'Thor in about midway through 'The Gathering Storm' arrives at the same place Padan Fain did in FIRES, except that Rand's change is towards the Light--not the Dark in chapter 'Veins of Gold'.



Rand's recent constant desire to "die" is a fairly new development. Aridhol too had a desire to "die", after fighting the Shadow for a time, under Mordeth's guidance.


Aridhol had been a great capital in the days of the Trolloc Wars, an ally of Manetheren and the rest of the Ten Nations. When those wars had lasted long enough to dwarf the War of the Hundred Years, when it seemed the Shadow was everywhere victorious and every victory of the Light did no more than buy time, a man named Mordeth became a councilor in Aridhol, and counseled the rule that to win, to survive, Aridhol must be harder than the Shadow, more cruel than the Shadow, less trusting. Slowly they made it so, until in the end, Aridhol became, if not blacker than the Shadow, as black. With war still raging against the Trollocs, Aridhol finally turned in on itself, turned on itself, consumed itself.

Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 21 "To Shador Logoth" - Rand point of view, with Sulin, Ogier Erith, Loial's mother and many others


Rand did become slowly less trusting, to the point of distrusting even Nynaeve. :eek:
Rand does try becoming harder than the Shadow from Iron to Steel to Cuendillar.
Rand in some ways is Blacker than the Shadow in 'The Gathering Storm' for the majority of the book.


Hurin notices this 'Darkness' within Rand with his nose, just as Tuon noticed it with her eyes before that.


Rand's Lews Therin voice describes Shadar Logoth in a manner similar to what Tuon later views originating from Rand.


This place frightens me, Lews Therin murmured beyond the Void. Does it not frighten you?

Rand’s breath caught. Was the voice actually addressing him? Yes, it frightens me.

There is darkness here. Blackness blacker than black.


Lord Of Chaos, Chapter 21 "To Shador Logoth" - Rand point of view, with Sulin, Ogier Erith, Loial's mother and many others


His expression was grim. Despite the afternoon light, his face was shadowed, far more so than everything else beneath the pavilion. He held her eyes still, and her breaths came quick and short. In the corners of her vision, she thought she saw something around him. A dark haze, a halo of blackness, emanating from him. It warped the air like a great heat. Her throat constricted, and words were forming. Yes. Yes. I will do as you ask. Yes. I must. I must.

"No," she said, the word barely a whisper.

His expression grew dark grew darker, and she saw fury in the way he pressed his hand down, fingers trembling with the force. The way he clenched his jaw. The way his eyes opened wider. Such intensity.

"I need--" he began.

"No," she repeated, confidence growing. "You will bow before me, Rand al'Thor. It will not happen the other way around." Such darkness! How could one man contain it? He seemed to throw a shadow the size of a mountain.

She could not ally with this creature. That seething hatred, it terrified her, and terror was an emotion with which she was unfamilar. This man could not be allowed freedom to do as he wished. He had to be contained.


The Gathering Storm, Chapter "A Halo of Blackness" - Tuon point of view, with Rand, Nynaeve, and others


How does Rand hold back evil of created within Aridhol and now within himself? If he falls, shall he lose his very soul to Mordeth's darkness?


Two wounds of darkness within Rand, which hurt more after the Cleansing of the Taint on the saidin. He's ill, with the whole world at risk because of it....

The thick feather mattress sagged beneath him as he swung his legs over the side and sat up facing her. He almost pressed a hand to the old wounds in his side without thinking, then caught himself and changed the movement to buttoning up his coat. Half-healed and never healing, those two overlapping wounds hurt since Shadar Logoth. Or maybe he was just more aware of how they throbbed, the heat of them a furnace of fever trapped in an area smaller than the palm of his hand. One, at least, he hoped, would begin to heal with Shadar Logoth gone. Maybe there had just not been enough time yet for him to feel any difference. It was not the same side that Min had fisted—she was always gentle with that, if not always with the rest of him—but he thought he had kept the pain hidden from her. No point in giving her something more to worry over. The concern in her eyes, and in her head, must be about Cadsuane. Or the others.

Crossroads of Twilight, Chapter 24 'A Strengthening Storm' - Rand point of view, next to Min

Rand is misguided to keep this illness from everyone else. The Dragon Reborn's health reflects upon the health of the whole world. It does concerns everyone.


Yet another parallel in Rand's paranoia of being "boxed" or "trapped" again to Padan Fain's and Toram fear of being "trapped" again.

Rand al'Thor, Padan Fain Mordeth, and even Toram Riatin all have the very same fear. Being "trapped".



Toram Riatin:

“You!” Toram roared, so loudly that Min spun to face him with her knives raised. He stood pointing his sword at Rand. “You are him! I was right! This is your work! You will not trap me, al’Thor!” Suddenly he broke away at an angle, scrambling wildly up the slope. “You will not trap me!”

A Crown of Swords, Chapter 36 "Blades" - Min point of view, with Rand, Toram (speaking), Cadsuane, and others


Padan Fain Mordeth:

The Tower held things worth a little patience in its strong rooms. The Horn of Valere was there, the fabled Horn made to call dead heroes back from the grave for the Last Battle. Even most of the Aes Sedai were ignorant of that, but he knew how to sniff out things. The dagger was there. He felt its pull where he stood. He could have pointed to it. It was his, a part of him, stolen and mired away here by these Aes Sedai. Having the dagger would make up for so much lost; he was not sure how, but he was sure it would. For Aridhol lost. Too dangerous to return to Aridhol, perchance to be trapped there again. He shivered. So long trapped. Not again.


The Fires of Heaven, Prologue 'The First Sparks Fall' - Padan Fain Mordeth point of view, with Elaida

Nope, Fain does not want to be trapped again. Not by the Dark One, nor by anyone else. He wants to be 'free'. (Laugh, just like Mat did from Aes Sedai & the Power, 'free'.)


Tangent: Fain claims its too dangerous to go to Aridhol. He knows Chosen are there...Demandred, later Sammael too. Now back to topic.



Rand al'Thor's paranoia of being physically 'trapped' becomes far more worst in 'The Gathering Storm'.


Whereas before Rand was fearful of being trapped post-LoC; yet he still trusted his Maidens enough to put a sack over his head to avoid being seen by Aviendha or Elayne in Caemyln. Trapped in sack, to be guided by others. (ACoS, Chapter 7)


It seems as if all individuals who reach Mordeth's touch become extremely paranoid of others, and distrustful. Mat. Padan Fain. Toram. Rand.


Selene, even comments upon this very change in Mat Cauthon of paranoia created by the Red Ruby Dagger from Shadar Logoth.

“Mat, Mat, you must learn to trust me. Oh, I will use you, too—you have too suspicious a nature, especially since carrying that dagger, for me to deny it—but my use will gain you wealth, and power, and glory.


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 20 'Visitations' - Mat point of view, with Selene; who is otherwise known as Lanfear, Daughter of the Night, Mierin, Moonhunter.




Dying, the World is dying.


The same dying environment one can read about in 'The Gathering Storm' from multiple characters point of view, is similar to the World which once existed within Shadar Logoth itself, now.


They stepped through the gateway into a city long dead, a city more than dead.
A golden sun more than halfway to its zenith roasted the ruins of greatness. Here and there a huge intact dome topped a pale marble palace, but more were holed than not, and most often only a curved and broken fragment remained. Long columned walks ran to towers as tall as anything Cairhien had ever dreamed of, and to towers ending jaggedly. Everywhere roofs had fallen in, bricks and stone fanned across fractured paving stones from collapsed buildings and walls. Shattered fountains and broken monuments decorated every intersection. Stunted trees, dying in the drought, dotted great hills of rubble. Dead weeds lined cracks in streets and buildings. Nothing moved, not a bird, not a rat, not a breeze. Silence shrouded Shadar Logoth. Shadar Logoth. Where the Shadow Waits.


Lord of Chaos, Chapter 21 "To Shadar Logoth" - Rand point of view


Its as if Shadar Logoth has been reborn within Rand al'Thor; in the form a dying World, as is seen when:


Nynaeve sees first-hand in the farms just outside of Far Madding,
Egwene in gardens within the White Tower,
Tylee witnessed trees not flowering in Altara,
Aviendha mentions the slow growth of plant life in Arad Doman.
Mat, Talmanes each see in Murandy, while trying to survive.



Siuan's fear of Mordeth dooming the world by touching a ta'veren is unfortunately being realized, now.

Neilbert
07-24-2010, 10:54 AM
We do not know Asmodean was killed with Balefire. For all we know, he could have been stabbed and the body disposed of. To kill him with the True Power, one would only need to do a trick like Chesmal's and then toss the body into a gateway.

Well, we know he wasn't able to be ressurected because of how and where he died, and while that does not confirm balefire, it certainly makes it a more likely murder weapon than a knife. It's almost certain he was killed by supernatural means.

But I do not believe Taim killed Asmodean, because it was not "obvious" at that point, like RJ said it was (he hadn't shown up yet).

That's what does it for me too.

To cap it off, in TGS Graendal is transported to a "black stone fortress" she assumes must be in the Blight, for the heat and because she doesn't know of any such fortress anywhere. The fortress seems like the Black Tower.

The fortress Graendal visited had blight specific crops growing around it. Highly unlikely that it was in Andor. However, when you can Travel, there is nothing stopping you from having two fortresses.

Taim often uses Moridin's colors, their personality isn't that dissimilar, and Taim seems to wield more power than most. The "so-called Aiel" comment was a red-flag for Age of Legends-ness-y.

Or a red herring. Really all it confirms is that Taim speaks the old tongue. Translate the sentence and it reads something like "those so-called (dedicated) might betray you."

He'd have to disguise the saas, thoughg, but I guess that's not too hard.

I suspect that the saas can't be disguised. I really don't have anything to base this on other than a gut feeling that the stigmata of the Dark One might be an inherently public statement.

Who's to say Taim is not Chosen? There's not an impedment to the Great Lord naming new Chosen in this Age. For his power, for what he did, if Taim went to Shayol Ghul to submit (which he probably did), I have little doubt he was inducted into an otherwise thinning rank.

Yes, this does seem to strengthen the Taim is a new Chosen Theory.

Whatever the story behind him, even if he ends up a victim of the gun we saw in act 1 (*), I truly hope he's an individual character, not some other in disguise. That's why I wouldn't like him being Moridin.

Agreed, Taim is more interesting as his own guy.

(*) - 13 channelers, 13 Myrdraal - someone has to be/have been a victim of that! In fact, I believe Taim has 13 Myrdraal living in the Black Tower for his convenience. How else would he turn almost every one of his recruits? :)

Same way the Black Ajah does. Careful approach followed by "training accidents" for those who say "no". The 13/13 thing will be seen though.

Actually, I remember The Shadow Rising, where the questioned Black Ajah told two stories: being sent to Tanchico to look for something important (the Sad Bracelets) and to break out Mazrim Taim and set him off on the world as a false Rand. We always assumed that because the first was true, the latter was false... maybe they were both true, but by the time they released Taim, either he had other plans, or one of the Chosen or the Great Lord did. Or, for all we know, he could have been turned by 13 channelers and 13 Myrdraal then.

Maybe half of the second one was true. I think that would qualify as a lie.

GonzoTheGreat
07-24-2010, 11:25 AM
I suspect that the saas can't be disguised. I really don't have anything to base this on other than a gut feeling that the stigmata of the Dark One might be an inherently public statement.Of course, there is the added question of how often Taim would have used the TP. Rand doesn't have the saas yet, after all.

Same way the Black Ajah does. Careful approach followed by "training accidents" for those who say "no". The 13/13 thing will be seen though.We do not even know whether the 13+13 thing will work with male channelers only. It may involve a type of linking, in which case women would be needed. Circumstantial evidence for that is the fact that the numbers for a maximum all female circle and that for the number involved with the Myrddraal are the same.

Neilbert
07-24-2010, 12:38 PM
Of course, there is the added question of how often Taim would have used the TP. Rand doesn't have the saas yet, after all.

"More than once, much more" is the qualifier for saa IIRC. So if Taim were using the TP it would be highly unlikely for him to have the saa unless he was going all addict.

greatwolf
07-24-2010, 12:49 PM
Of course, there is the added question of how often Taim would have used the TP. Rand doesn't have the saas yet, after all.


Is Taim old enough? Demandred has used the TP and he has an aura of death and violence around him, but no saa. Moggy I think may have used the TP also but certainly no one other than Moridin has the saa. And Demandred comments that it takes time to generate the saa (which RJ confirmed) or a shorter period using it exclusively.


So Taim could have the aura without the saa. And it highlights Rand's problems with his vision in KoD and tGS. KoD might have been Rand's first touch on the TP. If not for Cadsuane and co, the events of tGS might well have happened there.


So whether or not Rand used the TP, I think he would have gotten the aura via Moridin with time. The decision to use the TP only speeded it up. But unlike LT and Moridin who know what it is, Rand only saw it as a salvation.

greatwolf
07-24-2010, 01:00 PM
double post. poor connection here :(

Weird Harold
07-24-2010, 01:26 PM
I doubt the Great Lord would have taken longer to ressurect Ishamael, the only one who serves for belief instead of lust for power ...

FWIW, each of the transmigrated Forsaken have halved the elapsed time between death and reappearance. It may not have been the DO's choice that determined how long it took to transmigrate Ishamael into Moridin.

I don't recall off hand, the details, but consult the Chronology WOT (http://www.stevenac.net/wot/wotchron.htm) to see the timing for yourself.

Who's to say Taim is not Chosen? There's not an impedment to the Great Lord naming new Chosen in this Age. ...

RJ said in one interview that the DO was affected by his Chosen's prejudices. I don't recall the timing of that interview, but up to that point, RJ essentially confirmed that there were no Third Age Forsaken. Things may have changed with further losses in the ranks of the Forsaken, and Taim might have been promoted after that interview. <shrug>

I think it's probable that the AOL Forsaken's (Moridin's) prejudices still control the nomination for full Chosen status. Taim is one of the most likely to hold a position just shy of "Chosen" and his preference for Moridin's colors suggests that he is still a "minion" rather than "Junior Chosen" -- If he were to rise to the rank of Chosen, he'd be able -- and probably inclined -- to choose his own colors.

...We always assumed that because the first was true, the latter was false... maybe they were both true, ...

As answers to the question asked -- some variant of "where did Liandrin and the rest go" -- the answers are mutually exclusive; Liandrin could NOT have gone to both places. The two answers are presented as a clear "Exclusive OR" Boolean problem.

Also, as Neilbert noted, half is demonstrably false which makes the qhile answer false.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 03:11 AM
Well, we know he wasn't able to be ressurected because of how and where he died, and while that does not confirm balefire, it certainly makes it a more likely murder weapon than a knife. It's almost certain he was killed by supernatural means.

We know he wasn't able to be ressurected? I can't remember that being mentioned. I was under the impression that we didn't know whether the Great Lord could not bring Asmodean back, just that he would not.

The fortress Graendal visited had blight specific crops growing around it. Highly unlikely that it was in Andor. However, when you can Travel, there is nothing stopping you from having two fortresses.

Ah. I missed that. I was too ravenous in my first read, missing all kinds of details. :)

I suspect that the saas can't be disguised. I really don't have anything to base this on other than a gut feeling that the stigmata of the Dark One might be an inherently public statement.

That would be extremely inconvenient for undercover darkfriends. :) I figure, if the Power can make you look like someone else (or more accurately, can make people see someone else when they look at you), that should be valid for the eyes as well.

Same way the Black Ajah does. Careful approach followed by "training accidents" for those who say "no".

Yeah, but his recruitment rate is off the charts, if we assume that every Asha'man in the KoD Epilogue is a darkfriend (it's not a safe assumption, but it's somewhat likely).

From a Chosen p.o.v., if I had unlimited access to channelers, then the obvious choice would be to have 13 Myrdraal and how many Black Ajah around as were needed to turn them all to the Great Lord.

After Toveine's failed attack on the Black Tower, supply of Aes Sedai wasn't a problem. If they were told by their Asha'man, point-blank, "link with that one" so that someone could turn them all Dark, they would.

The 13/13 thing will be seen though.

We have info on that? Great. It was too big of a plot point to be left lingering.

Of course, there is the added question of how often Taim would have used the TP. Rand doesn't have the saas yet, after all.

Not that anyone saw it in him, but he did see black spots in his eyesight, right? Or am I misremembering some eyesight problem he had in TGS?

We do not even know whether the 13+13 thing will work with male channelers only. It may involve a type of linking, in which case women would be needed. Circumstantial evidence for that is the fact that the numbers for a maximum all female circle and that for the number involved with the Myrddraal are the same.

Yes, but thanks to Elaida, obedient female channelers were not a problem to Taim. In fact, it was right after their arrival that we had accounts of Asha'man getting "private lessons" with Taim, and that Logain was the only Asha'man that didn't live in "the palace."

Is Taim old enough? Demandred has used the TP and he has an aura of death and violence around him, but no saa. Moggy I think may have used the TP also but certainly no one other than Moridin has the saa. And Demandred comments that it takes time to generate the saa (which RJ confirmed) or a shorter period using it exclusively.

In ACoS, Moghedien says only 30 people had ever been given the privilege of using the True Power. She didn't know Moridin was Ishamael yet, so that makes it 29. Now there at least 30, with Rand, maybe 31, if our assumptions with Taim hold true (and if Moghedien didn't know about him).

With such a number, I really doubt that any of the Chosen has yet to hold the True Power at least once. If anything, it'd probably be an additional leash on them.

FWIW, each of the transmigrated Forsaken have halved the elapsed time between death and reappearance. It may not have been the DO's choice that determined how long it took to transmigrate Ishamael into Moridin.

Ah. I thought that the Great Lord had recovered that power in LoC, and after that he could do it at will. Which would mean, of course, that Lanfear lived for a while in the Eelfinn land. Or that He punished her for a great while before turning her loose again.

We may learn more about it soon, but maybe you're right, and it's not an instantaneous process.

RJ said in one interview that the DO was affected by his Chosen's prejudices. I don't recall the timing of that interview, but up to that point, RJ essentially confirmed that there were no Third Age Forsaken. Things may have changed with further losses in the ranks of the Forsaken, and Taim might have been promoted after that interview. <shrug>

I think it's probable that the AOL Forsaken's (Moridin's) prejudices still control the nomination for full Chosen status. Taim is one of the most likely to hold a position just shy of "Chosen" and his preference for Moridin's colors suggests that he is still a "minion" rather than "Junior Chosen" -- If he were to rise to the rank of Chosen, he'd be able -- and probably inclined -- to choose his own colors.

Ah, I didn't know that. Still, we know from Sammael and Graendal's account that in the early stages of his "Chosenship", he was still pretty much under her wing. I reckon anything is possible at this point, but yeah, if the Chosen have a say in the admission process, then nobody gets in. :)

As answers to the question asked -- some variant of "where did Liandrin and the rest go" -- the answers are mutually exclusive; Liandrin could NOT have gone to both places. The two answers are presented as a clear "Exclusive OR" Boolean problem.

Also, as Neilbert noted, half is demonstrably false which makes the qhile answer false.

They didn't answer that question directly, since they (alledgedly) didn't know the answer, they both had just "overheard" something. Both plans could be true, only the second plan could have been exacted by a different Black Ajah cell, that was my point.

But I was being dense. Amico was Stilled, Joiya was not. Therefore, Joiya was still under Oath, and could not betray the Black Ajah. She was lying.

My bad. :p

Terez
07-25-2010, 03:29 AM
We know he wasn't able to be ressurected? I can't remember that being mentioned. I was under the impression that we didn't know whether the Great Lord could not bring Asmodean back, just that he would not.
RJ confirmed that the Dark One could not have brought Asmodean back if he'd wanted to, because of how and where he died (whatever that means).

Yeah, but his recruitment rate is off the charts, if we assume that every Asha'man in the KoD Epilogue is a darkfriend (it's not a safe assumption, but it's somewhat likely).
It seems like a safe bet to me, but his rate is only about 10%. Not all that spectacular, considering that he has a great deal of freedom to take risks, and write off those who refuse as 'training losses'.

Not that anyone saw it in him, but he did see black spots in his eyesight, right? Or am I misremembering some eyesight problem he had in TGS?
Yeah, he had double vision after the Semirhage attack. RJ said at the 2003 Budapest interview that the saa do not impede vision in any way.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 03:45 AM
RJ confirmed that the Dark One could not have brought Asmodean back if he'd wanted to, because of how and where he died (whatever that means).

Ah. The only relevant "wheres" I can think of that (maybe) could have an influence are Tel'aran'rhiod or the void used in Skimming... Cyndane proved the Great Lord can reach into AElfinn country just as well.

The most likely reply is probably balefire, yes... and if so, someone spared Asmodean of an eternity of suffering. Awfully nice of them. :)

It seems like a safe bet to me, but his rate is only about 10%. Not all that spectacular, considering that he has a great deal of freedom to take risks, and write off those who refuse as 'training losses'.

Hmm... good point. But how would Rand feel if he heard "we have 150 full Asha'man and 900 training losses"? :)

Yeah, he had double vision after the Semirhage attack. RJ said at the 2003 Budapest interview that the saa do not impede vision in any way.

Yeah, he had the normal effects of someone who had a fireball explode in his face. :) He was also experiencing the side-effects of "Crossing the Streams," something Egon Spengler always warned him not to do.

But I half-remember him seeing black spots in his vision. Maybe I imagined it. I read through TGS in about 36 hours, and had very little sleep during those. lol

I'm halfway through WH now, I'll reach TGS again soon, and this time I'll take my time. :)

GonzoTheGreat
07-25-2010, 04:05 AM
Ah. The only relevant "wheres" I can think of that (maybe) could have an influence are Tel'aran'rhiod or the void used in Skimming... Cyndane proved the Great Lord can reach into AElfinn country just as well.Not necessarily. She may have been shielded, shoved outside and hung from a convenient tree. More or less the same that happened to Mat, only without the need to shield him from the OP. And if no one saved her in time, then Lanfear would have died in such circumstances. And the DO could then have grabbed her soul before it was out of reach, to resurrect her at his leisure.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 04:33 AM
Not necessarily. She may have been shielded, shoved outside and hung from a convenient tree. More or less the same that happened to Mat, only without the need to shield him from the OP. And if no one saved her in time, then Lanfear would have died in such circumstances. And the DO could then have grabbed her soul before it was out of reach, to resurrect her at his leisure.

True, but that would mean that there are other Twisted Doorways leading into Eelfinn land. Or not. Maybe Mat will find a woman's corpse hanging from a tree just outside the Tower of Ghenjei. :)

But yeah, I hadn't considered that possibility. I assumed Moraine and Lanfear had had the same fate, and that eventually Lanfear had killed herself so she could be recycled, or had pushed her captors too far.

greatwolf
07-25-2010, 07:04 AM
After Toveine's failed attack on the Black Tower, supply of Aes Sedai wasn't a problem. If they were told by their Asha'man, point-blank, "link with that one" so that someone could turn them all Dark, they would.


Were any of those ashaman DFs? I thought they were all Logain's. And all the AS except Toveine were non BA.


In ACoS, Moghedien says only 30 people had ever been given the privilege of using the True Power.


Most likely all she knew was what occured in the aol. 30 out of hundreds in the aol isn't much. Its possible all 13 currently surviving have used it before, but its quite doubtful. Especially if consider the way the chosen consider the price involved.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 07:29 AM
Were any of those ashaman DFs? I thought they were all Logain's. And all the AS except Toveine were non BA.

I always assumed that Logain's Asha'man weren't the only ones bonding Aes Sedai. Why would they be? Taim wouldn't miss the oportunity to have a few Aes Sedai pets.

Oh, and Toveine isn't Black, as far as we know. Nothing she said or thought indicates that, and Alviarin made sure not to send any Black Sisters in that expedition.

Most likely all she knew was what occured in the aol. 30 out of hundreds in the aol isn't much. Its possible all 13 currently surviving have used it before, but its quite doubtful. Especially if consider the way the chosen consider the price involved.

They also consider it a privilege, so if the Great Lord told them to use it, or that they could use it, they wouldn't balk at it. A mere suggestion would be taken as a command, I'd wager. :)

Regardless, it isn't a privilege that would be granted to the Liandrins of this world... only Chosen, and near-enough would be granted that chance, or in extreme cases, someone in a particular circunstance that could use the True Power to wreak havoc (i.e., a shielded darkfriend deep in enemy territory)... and even in those cases, the Great Lord rarely rewards failure with something good.

We know that there were at least a dozen more Chosen in the AoL that died over suspected betrayal alone. The numbers seem to fit pretty well.

Besides, some Chosen having wielded the True Power and not others would probably create rifts among them, Chosen standing higher than other Chosen. We haven't seen anything of the sort other than Nae'blis, and some Chosen being punished for failure.

Oh, and Lanfear, having drilled into the Bore looking for the True Power, must certainly have wielded it.

greatwolf
07-25-2010, 07:59 AM
They also consider it a privilege, so if the Great Lord told them to use it, or that they could use it, they wouldn't balk at it. A mere suggestion would be taken as a command, I'd wager. :)

Regardless, it isn't a privilege that would be granted to the Liandrins of this world... only Chosen, ...


If its only granted to chosen, then Taim is now (or has always been) chosen. Me, I don't think its only for the strongest. I think the DO has his own games.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 08:13 AM
If its only granted to chosen, then Taim is now (or has always been) chosen. Me, I don't think its only for the strongest. I think the DO has his own games.

I believe the quote was:

Regardless, it isn't a privilege that would be granted to the Liandrins of this world... only Chosen, and near-enough would be granted that chance

;)

Granted, my punctuation may have sucked a bit there. :p

True, the bottomline is, access to the True Power is given to whomever the Great Lord wants. For all we know, at the heart of Be'lal's inferiority complex is never being allowed to play with the TP like all other Chosen did. :D

Oh, interestingly enough, Taim has accessed the True Power after Moridin became Nae'blis... Demandred said access to the True Power was reserved to Moridin ever since. That must mean something, though I can't be sure what at the moment. :)

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 08:31 AM
As answers to the question asked -- some variant of "where did Liandrin and the rest go" -- the answers are mutually exclusive; Liandrin could NOT have gone to both places. The two answers are presented as a clear "Exclusive OR" Boolean problem.

Also, as Neilbert noted, half is demonstrably false which makes the qhile answer false.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Joiya, was still subject to her Black Ajah oaths....So, Joiya used Liandrin's name, instead of say Ishamael's or some other Chosen's name. Its called a 'loophole', in the B.A. Oaths. :p

It's not like Joiya violated her B.A. Oath, by talking about public knowledge of another B.A. member: Liandrin. When both questioners already knew the truth, of Liandrin's allegiances.


Joiya's confession to Egwene, Nynaeve has basically come true. Ditto, Amico's confession about something being dangerous to Rand there. Both B.A.'s told the truth, as they understood it.

greatwolf
07-25-2010, 08:40 AM
Oh, interestingly enough, Taim has accessed the True Power after Moridin became Nae'blis... Demandred said access to the True Power was reserved to Moridin ever since. That must mean something, though I can't be sure what at the moment. :)


Likeliest? He was searching for Rand. RJ made it clear that Rand's disappearance following the attempt affected things in a rather severe manner. Hence why the failure was a disaster.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 08:50 AM
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

Joiya, was still subject to her Black Ajah oaths....So, Joiya used Liandrin's name, instead of say Ishamael's or some other Chosen's name. Its called a 'loophole', in the B.A. Oaths. :p

It's not like Joiya violated her B.A. Oath, by talking about public knowledge of another B.A. member: Liandrin. When both questioners already knew the truth, of Liandrin's allegiances.


Joiya's confession to Egwene, Nynaeve has basically come true. Ditto, Amico's confession about something being dangerous to Rand there. Both B.A.'s told the truth, as they understood it.

No, Joiya's confession did not become true. Mazrim Taim was not turned loose on the world as a false Rand.

Besides, the Oath forbids not only revealing a Black Sister, but any current plots that the Black Ajah is involved. That's why captured Black Sisters always reveal tons of stuff about old plots, but never anything useful.

Joiya could not reveal anything true and current, so she must have lied. If there was any such plan to release Mazrim Taim, then she would have been bound not to speak of it.

Likeliest? He was searching for Rand. RJ made it clear that Rand's disappearance following the attempt affected things in a rather severe manner. Hence why the failure was a disaster.

Ah. Good point. Ever since Rand spoke of the Cleansing until the actual Cleansing, the Chosen and their minions were operating under a completely different set of orders.

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 09:35 AM
I assumed Moraine and Lanfear had had the same fate, and that eventually Lanfear had killed herself so she could be recycled, or had pushed her captors too far.

Why would Lanfear kill herself?

The Eelfinn cannot channel, while she can...

It goes against reason to believe Lanfear knows nothing about the 'rules' Tower of Ghenjei's Eelfinn realm.


Oh, so do you consider Lanfear an Aes Sedai or not?



What does Min desire?

He needs an Aes Sedai, she thought. All I can do is try to give him a little warmth.

Who shows up a few paragraphs later?


“I am called Lanfear, girl.”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 48 "First Claiming" - Min point of view, with Lanfear

'I am called Lanfear'...

An Aes Sedai from the Age of Legends?

What's your definition of Aes Sedai?


Why does it matter if Lanfear is considered Aes Sedai or not?


Bluntly, the World may depend on it...

Mat, weighing two Aes Sedai on a huge set of balance scales, and on his decision depended...She could not say what; something vast; the world, perhaps.

The Path of Daggers, Chapter 15 - Egwene Dream and point of view

Mat has twice weighed two Aes Sedai, and each time the decision depended on his friendship to Thom...

To his see weighing of two Aes Sedai, see

Knife of Dreams, Chapter 'A Village in Shiota' The Gathering Storm, Chapter 'The Tipsy Gelding'


In Ebou Dar, Mat saved not two but three Aes Sedai. In other words, Egwene's Dream is unfulfilled...so the World remains at risk.



RJ has been hinting about Lanfear and the Eelfinn for ages, among others.

Same with Dragonmount blowing its top...

If the Dragon wants to shake the mountain down on our heads, then the Dragon must have a good reason for it. If he decided to make them take off their skins and dance in their bones, they would think it all right.”

The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 3 "News from the Plain" - Perrin point of view, with Min, Loial

He of course, is Rand al'Thor. And yes, he did basically choose sent Moiraine, Lanfear to visit the Eelfinn.


Nynaeve, once states as much to Valan Luca when referring to vague enemies, including the Black Ajah and what sounds awefully close to the deeds of Eelfinn.

My enemies, the ones you dismiss so easily, would make you take off your skin and dance in your bones, and you would be grateful if that was all they did.

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 47 "The Price of a Ship" - Nynaeve point of view, with Valan Luca in Samara

Mat Cauthon's thoughts elsewhere have stated what the Eelfinn can do repeatedly

Bix
07-25-2010, 09:49 AM
What a pathetic post.

Lets quickly steer this back on course before it gets sucked into the Felix vortex.

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 10:20 AM
No, Joiya's confession did not become true. Mazrim Taim was not turned loose on the world as a false Rand.


What did Joiya state?
This.

Joiya shrugged. “As you wish. Let me see. Different words. The false Dragon, Mazrim Taim, who was captured in Saldaea, can channel with incredible strength. Perhaps as much as Rand al’Thor, or nearly so, if the reports can be believed. Before he can be brought to Tar Valon and gentled, Liandrin means to break him free. He will be proclaimed as the Dragon Reborn, his name given as Rand al’Thor, and then he will be set to destruction on such a scale as the world has not seen since the War of the Hundred Years.”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 5 "Questioners" - Egwene point of view, with Nynaeve


Taim was broken free
Taim has all but replaced Rand as the Dragon Reborn in the eyes of Asha'man as a leader. Even Logain states this as a fact, in KoD.
Taim is set for destruction, during the Last Battle.


Joiya even directly hints at the Borderlanders armies going after Rand al'Thor. Pushed into doing so by of a propaganda campaign set against Rand.

Those who do not shrink at such butchery will seek out the Rand al’Thor who seems to revel in blood. The nations will unite as they did in the Aiel War . . . ”

“Of course,” Joiya replied, as though responding to a gracious invitation, but her eyes glittered like chips of black glass. “You can see the obvious result. Rand al’Thor will be blamed for the depredations of . . . Rand al’Thor. Even proof that they are not the same man may well be dismissed.

Logan did claim in KoD, that Taim does order many, many things in Rand's name, supposedly coming from the Dragon Reborn's authority.

Come on, look at how Taim dresses himself.


He was tall, with a strongly hooked nose and an air of physical strength about him. An air of darkness, too. He sat there with his ankles crossed and one arm hanging over the heavy arm of the throne, yet he seemed ready to explode into violence. Interestingly, though his black cost was embroidered with blue-and gold dragons that twined around the sleeves from elbows to cuffs, he did not wear the collar pins.

Knife of Dreams, Epilogue 'Remember the Old Saying' - Pevara point of view, of Taim



Besides, the Oath forbids not only revealing a Black Sister, but any current plots that the Black Ajah is involved. That's why captured Black Sisters always reveal tons of stuff about old plots, but never anything useful.

Never? Verin warned Rand not to trust sisters sworned to by oath him, in Tear by letter.

Amico warned Egwene, Nynaeve about the danger to Rand in Tanchico.

Joiya warned Egwene, Nynaeve, and Moiraine about the danger Taim, Borderlanders et la. Moiraine did in her thoughts. believe that Joiya's confession was likely true. Moiraine's multiple letters to Siuan about this Confession never did arrive in time....



Joiya could not reveal anything true and current, so she must have lied. If there was any such plan to release Mazrim Taim, then she would have been bound not to speak of it.

Verin betrayed the Shadow, for 70 straight years while being a B.A. You were saying again?

Verin put the evidence of her betray in notebooks. There are many loopholes around Oaths.


That is one reason, Moridin does not trust Darkfriends as a general rule. Darkfriends and B.A. can betray plans and information to others. Too much knowledge means death to those with it, if Moridin learns of it.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 11:23 AM
Why would Lanfear kill herself?

The Eelfinn cannot channel, while she can...

It goes against reason to believe Lanfear knows nothing about the 'rules' Tower of Ghenjei's Eelfinn realm.


Oh, so do you consider Lanfear an Aes Sedai or not?

Your post pretty much goes on a tangent...

Anyway, why would Lanfear kill herself? If she had no other way of escaping the 'finn land, why wouldn't she? Specially if they were doing something to her.

In her head, the Great Lord would save her, of course, His most dedicated servant, the one who drilled a hole into the Bore. And she couldn't stay a prisoner there forever... she had Lews Therin to kill.

It's a possibility, just like any other.

There are many loopholes around Oaths.

Tell me one loophole, as stated in the books, that would allow Joiya, who was bound by the Black Ajah Oaths and was not dying, to betray a current plot the Black Ajah is involved in, and I may agree with you.

Otherwise, let's just agree to disagree. The fact that Joiya lied has nothing on Taim whatsoever, since he was more than likely broken out by Darkfriends anyway - Joiya just didn't know about it.

Weird Harold
07-25-2010, 03:46 PM
Yeah, but his recruitment rate is off the charts, if we assume that every Asha'man in the KoD Epilogue is a darkfriend (it's not a safe assumption, but it's somewhat likely).


It is not only a safe assumption, it is a virtual certaintly that any ash'man who wears the Dragons of Asha'man rank who did not recive his dragons directly from Rand is one of Taim's DF Minions.

Conversely, anyone in Logain's faction is not a DF

The evidence for that deduction is spread over the books from WH onward, starting with Toviene's POV in the prologue of Winter's Heart.

The silly Brown nattered on as she carried out her domestic tasks like a contented farmwife. “I’ve learned a good deal already. Logain is the only full Asha’man to live here in this village. The others all live in Taim’s ‘palace.’ They have servants, but Logain hired the wife of a man in training to cook and clean ...
...
Still gripping the spoon, Gabrelle sat across the table from her and leaned forward intently. “Their wall maybe strong when it’s done, but this place is full of fractures. There is Mazrim Taim’s faction, and Logain’s faction, though I am uncertain either thinks of them so. Perhaps other factions, too, and certainly men who don’t know there are factions. Fifty-one sisters should be able to make something of that, even with the bond. The second question is, what do we make of it?”

After Toveine's failed attack on the Black Tower, supply of Aes Sedai wasn't a problem. If they were told by their Asha'man, point-blank, "link with that one" so that someone could turn them all Dark, they would.

Given that all of the Aes Sedai in Toveine's force were bonded by Logain's faction, we can be fairly confident that there are no DF asha'man who would order one the 51 bonded AS to link with one Mydraal, let alone thirteen of them.

Yes, but thanks to Elaida, obedient female channelers were not a problem to Taim.

Since Taim disapproved of Logain's solution to Toveine's force -- and bonding in general -- obedient female channelers is a BIG problem for Taim; as he will find out when Logain and his faction fulfill Elaida's "rent with fire" Foretelling. :D

...Both plans could be true, only the second plan could have been exacted by a different Black Ajah cell, that was my point.

Thanks to Verin's confession in TGS, we now know that Joiya could have betrayed other BA plots as long as she did not betray the DO in doing so. But whether Joiya could or would betray another plot is irrelevant to the context of her "confession," What is relevant is that the situation is set up so that one and only one of the captives can be telling the truth.

That fact that Felix and others can force the coincidence of Taim's escape into the framework of Joiya's lies is just that, Coincidence.

Not that anyone saw it in him, but he did see black spots in his eyesight, right? Or am I misremembering some eyesight problem he had in TGS?

I think you're recalling this scene:

The watcher smiled crookedly behind his fancloth skulker's mask. Nae’blis. That explained what had brought Graendal to heel, what had stayed her from killing Sammael. Even she would be blinded by that. An even greater risk for Sammael than claiming truce with Lews Therin, though. Unless, of course, it was true. The Great Lord delighted in setting his servants one against another, to see who was stronger. Only the strongest could stand near his glory. But today's truth need not be tomorrow's. The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once he had changed it himself. He considered going back and killing the seven women in the clearing. They would die easily; he doubted they knew how to form a true circle. The black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard. No, he would let that run its course. For now.


To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large

greatwolf
07-25-2010, 04:24 PM
To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern.

Can anyone provide a link to any discussion on this? How is Moridin able to step outside the pattern?

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 05:56 PM
It is not only a safe assumption, it is a virtual certaintly that any ash'man who wears the Dragons of Asha'man rank who did not recive his dragons directly from Rand is one of Taim's DF Minions.

Conversely, anyone in Logain's faction is not a DF

The evidence for that deduction is spread over the books from WH onward, starting with Toviene's POV in the prologue of Winter's Heart.

Yes, that is pretty much my stance on it as well.

Given that all of the Aes Sedai in Toveine's force were bonded by Logain's faction, we can be fairly confident that there are no DF asha'man who would order one the 51 bonded AS to link with one Mydraal, let alone thirteen of them.

Since Taim disapproved of Logain's solution to Toveine's force -- and bonding in general -- obedient female channelers is a BIG problem for Taim; as he will find out when Logain and his faction fulfill Elaida's "rent with fire" Foretelling. :D

I didn't get that impression. I remember Vinchova telling Logain Taim would be pissed that Logain had bonded a second... I missed the implication that they had bonded them all.

Thanks to Verin's confession in TGS, we now know that Joiya could have betrayed other BA plots as long as she did not betray the DO in doing so.

Only at the hour of her death, I think. Maybe she died screaming "Tanchico" at Slayer... :)

I think you're recalling this scene:

It's possible. I'll get back to TGS soon enough, and if I find the source of my confusion, I'll post about it.

IamChosen
07-25-2010, 05:57 PM
Can anyone provide a link to any discussion on this? How is Moridin able to step outside the pattern?

That's how you Travel with the True Power.

Weird Harold
07-25-2010, 07:08 PM
I didn't get that impression. I remember Vinchova telling Logain Taim would be pissed that Logain had bonded a second... I missed the implication that they had bonded them all.

Taim is opposed to bonding, he's opposed to sword training, he thinks Logain training his faction in conventional tactics is a waste of time. There's a lot of things Taim doesn't like and doesn't permit his minions to engage in beyond giving lip-service to Rand's direct order.

"There you are," another black-coated man said, splashing his horse through the snow to them. This one would be much more to her liking – if he could not actually channel, at least. She doubted this pink-cheeked lad shaved more than twice in the week. "Light, Logain!" the pretty boy exclaimed. "Did you take a second one? The M’Hael won’t like that! I don’t think he likes us taking any! Maybe it won’t matter, though, you two being so close and all."

Neilbert
07-25-2010, 07:53 PM
We know he wasn't able to be ressurected? I can't remember that being mentioned.

The Wheel of Time Reference Library (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_2fpznmj) in Terez' signature contains a compilation she put together of information about WoT, including an interview database which is an interesting read and will probably answer a lot of questions you have, and maybe raise some new ones. It is a really nice tool, and something that was sorely needed for a long time.

That would be extremely inconvenient for undercover darkfriends. :) I figure, if the Power can make you look like someone else (or more accurately, can make people see someone else when they look at you), that should be valid for the eyes as well.

Well, you don't get the saa until you have used the True Power more than a few times, but you are probably right. Ishamael would have had a hell of a time (not that it would have been impossible, just a lot of work) playing Hawkwing's advisor if he was going flame-face at random.

From a Chosen p.o.v., if I had unlimited access to channelers, then the obvious choice would be to have 13 Myrdraal and how many Black Ajah around as were needed to turn them all to the Great Lord.

It almost seems too easy. It has to be harder than that.

We have info on that? Great. It was too big of a plot point to be left lingering.

It has been all but stated that we will see it.


Not that anyone saw it in him, but he did see black spots in his eyesight, right? Or am I misremembering some eyesight problem he had in TGS?

You are probably remembering his vision problems from Semirhage's fireball. The individual experiencing the saa is aware of them, but they do not interfere with vision.

With such a number, I really doubt that any of the Chosen has yet to hold the True Power at least once. If anything, it'd probably be an additional leash on them.

There are Chosen quotes where Demandred IIRC says he had only used the True Power at "great need". So they will use it, but only if they have to, and using it only a couple times is probably not harmful. Of course they know the final price for TP abuse, so it is a near certainty that some of the 30 have gone all Ishamael, only without the Dark One's blessing.

Kimon
07-25-2010, 07:56 PM
Taim is opposed to bonding, he's opposed to sword training, he thinks Logain training his faction in conventional tactics is a waste of time. There's a lot of things Taim doesn't like and doesn't permit his minions to engage in beyond giving lip-service to Rand's direct order.

Gabrelle makes clear that none of the captives were bonded to Taim's men. Here's her statement on this matter from the prologue of CoT:

Unfortunately, what the sisters could learn of his classes was limited; no one was bonded to a man of Taim's faction.

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 11:00 PM
Taim is opposed to bonding, he's opposed to sword training, he thinks Logain training his faction in conventional tactics is a waste of time. There's a lot of things Taim doesn't like and doesn't permit his minions to engage in beyond giving lip-service to Rand's direct order.

What Taim's motivation?

Taim wants the absolute loyalty of his faction of Asha'man, to himself. Anything that might create an alternative possibility of loyalty, Taim has attempted to crush.

Be it a Sword Trainer, who was utterly loyal to Morgase until being kicked out of the Queen's Guards by Rahvin.

Or Jur Grady creation of a 'bond' with his wife Sora Grady.

It among one the reasons Taim pushed Logain's faction into bonding Elaida's group of 50 or so Aes Sedai, not his own faction.

I'm highly curious about the outcome of Tarna, Pevara's Red Ajah offer to bond Asha'man. Did they bond Taim's or what's left of Logan's faction? Ditto...the missing Salidar Aes Sedai sisters who are loyal to Egwene al'Vere, who left for Black Tower and have not been heard from since: Faolain, Theodrin, Myrelle and Nisao. Was the 'Extra Bit' used by the Taim's Asha'man?

Weird Harold
07-26-2010, 12:09 AM
What Taim's motivation?


Taim's moptivation is the same as Demandred's he wants to be number one instead of the "eternal second best."

Taim wants the absolute loyalty of his faction of Asha'man, to himself. Anything that might create an alternative possibility of loyalty, Taim has attempted to crush.

That's a really good point. I think Taim is also afflicted with a misconception that the OP alone is sufficient.

Loc Ch 11"I sent him away," Taim said. "What good are swords?" Another rock exploded. "I can barely avoid stabbing myself, and I’ve never felt the lack. They have the Power, now."

I'm highly curious about the outcome of Tarna, Pevara's Red Ajah offer to bond Asha'man. Did they bond Taim's ... Was the 'Extra Bit' used by the Taim's Asha'man?

You pretty much answered your own question above: "Taim wants the absolute loyalty of his faction of Asha'man, to himself."

The traditional Warder Bond the Aes Sedai would use to bond asha'man would clearly trump loyalty to Taim, so I'd be very, very, surprised if any of Taim's minions would be allowed to agree.

Rand's offer to the SAS specifically excluded anyone wearing the dragon -- i.e. the majority of Taim's faction -- so only those newly recruited to Taim's faction and on probation would be vulnerable to being Bonded by the SAS delgation.

None of Taim's faction would use the "extra bit" on an Aes Sedai bonding them -- it's doubtful that any asha'man would be using the 'spouse bond' on an Aes Sedai using a conventional warder bond on them. It might be interesting to see the effects of a double bonding, but I don't think it will happen.

greatwolf
07-26-2010, 02:12 AM
That's how you Travel with the True Power.

We know only the Creator and the DO are outside the pattern. No one else. The consequences of Moridin being able to step outside the pattern are major. Is it a side effect of the means of Travelling he employs or a side effect of using the TP?

Moridin is quite aware that he faces more than just Rand. He did not issue orders to kill Mat and Perrin until the pattern started to weaken in KoD. Will the bpattern be able to predict what he does or influence it whenever he is outside the pattern?

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2010, 03:59 AM
He did not issue orders to kill Mat and Perrin until the pattern started to weaken in KoD.Yes, he did. He had given such orders to Carridin, and presumably to others too, during the Prologue of TGH.

greatwolf
07-26-2010, 04:25 AM
Yes, he did. He had given such orders to Carridin, and presumably to others too, during the Prologue of TGH.

But did we ever get Carridin's orders on screen? It'd be nice if we could stay on topic in TL. But what's a discussion without a hundred tangents to it? Boring.

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2010, 05:15 AM
I haven't been able to find unequivocal proof that Carridin had been ordered to kill Mat and Perrin. He had gotten orders to kill Rand, though, in TDR, which surprised me when I reread it.

Neilbert
07-26-2010, 09:10 AM
Maybe his dedicating all his recourses to killing Mat when ordered to lie low and search for ter'angreal?

Cus that's pretty freaking strong.

Tamyrlin
07-26-2010, 09:32 AM
From the description of what happens when Moridin travels with the TP, it seems apparent that something evil is happening. However, it is clear that such a thing cannot destroy the Pattern, otherwise Moridin would just cut a bunch of holes in the Pattern. Interesting thought: whatever Lanfear did in creating the Bore, made a permanent rip in the Pattern, unlike the gateway which is temporary.

However, it would be a good question to get clarification on. It would have been a good candidate for the small detail, but I believe it shows up in ACoS first.

Some potential questions - does the Pattern fix the rip created every time Moridin uses the true power to travel? What was unique about what Mierin and her fellow researchers did that prevented the Pattern from fixing the Bore on it's own? (ok, so he will RAFO that one).

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2010, 11:07 AM
Some potential questions - does the Pattern fix the rip created every time Moridin uses the true power to travel? What was unique about what Mierin and her fellow researchers did that prevented the Pattern from fixing the Bore on it's own? (ok, so he will RAFO that one).Perhaps the special thing is that usually, it is just a random rip which the Pattern can repair, but in the case of the Bore it is a rip directly into the DO's prison, and he is keeping it open somehow.

If the Forsaken duplicated the experiment, they might be able to make yet another such rip. But that would be a lot smaller than the current one, so it is probably not cost effective. (And maybe not possible, too, since they may lack a sufficient number of trained researchers.)

IamChosen
07-26-2010, 12:58 PM
Taim is opposed to bonding, he's opposed to sword training, he thinks Logain training his faction in conventional tactics is a waste of time. There's a lot of things Taim doesn't like and doesn't permit his minions to engage in beyond giving lip-service to Rand's direct order.

Gabrelle makes clear that none of the captives were bonded to Taim's men. Here's her statement on this matter from the prologue of CoT:

Ah, thank you both. That clears it up. :)

The Wheel of Time Reference Library (http://docs.google.com/Doc?id=dcjspjqg_2fpznmj) in Terez' signature contains a compilation she put together of information about WoT, including an interview database which is an interesting read and will probably answer a lot of questions you have, and maybe raise some new ones. It is a really nice tool, and something that was sorely needed for a long time.

I'll have a look at it, thanks!

Well, you don't get the saa until you have used the True Power more than a few times, but you are probably right. Ishamael would have had a hell of a time (not that it would have been impossible, just a lot of work) playing Hawkwing's advisor if he was going flame-face at random.

Hawkwing: "What's that in your eyes?"
Ishamael: "I have a condition. I'm allergic to grass."
Hawkwing: "But there's grass everywhere on this side of the Aryth Ocean!"
Ishamael: "That's precisely what I wanted to talk to you about, my Lord..."

It almost seems too easy. It has to be harder than that.

Yeah, I remember thinking it was a big hack when I heard about it. I hope there are a lot of drawbacks involved.

It would also be fun if 13 people channeling through 13 white bunnies could turn someone to the Light. :D

It has been all but stated that we will see it.

Great. :)

We know only the Creator and the DO are outside the pattern. No one else. The consequences of Moridin being able to step outside the pattern are major. Is it a side effect of the means of Travelling he employs or a side effect of using the TP?

The True Power is the Great Lord, or pretty much a part of Him. Maybe Travelling with the True Power involves stepping through the Great Lord.

As for whether it is a side effect of the TP or how Travelling works with the TP, I cannot tell. Encyclopedia WOT came to the conclusion it was the second, but I dunno what they based themselves in.

What we do know is that in TEotW prologue, Ishamael travels with the True Power.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2010, 03:47 AM
It would also be fun if 13 people channeling through 13 white bunnies could turn someone to the Light. :DSheep, not bunnies. That is why it is such a big deal that Rand is a sheepherder.

Terez
07-27-2010, 04:02 AM
Yes, bunnies seem to be seen more as food than little cute fluffy things in WoT.

IamChosen
07-27-2010, 12:19 PM
Sheep, not bunnies. That is why it is such a big deal that Rand is a sheepherder.

Good point.:)

greatwolf
07-29-2010, 06:55 PM
However, it is clear that such a thing cannot destroy the Pattern, otherwise Moridin would just cut a bunch of holes in the Pattern.


Or maybe Moridin's not too keen on ending the game yet :) . Seriously, it is said that the pattern is everywhere but can only be sensed in a place where the pattern is weakest (or just weak?) - shayol ghul.

I think Meirin and Beidomon used a lot of research facilities in creating the bore that no longer exist. And Meirin didn't have a third name that I recall so she's not likely to be the brains behind the project. She might not have even been among the most important maybe just a PRO woman.


But they set out to create a permanent alternative to the TP. At a point where they sensed a different power, one they already knew did not have male/female distinctions.


If fades use the TP to Travel or whatever their shadow jumps are called, then its not likely that its all that dangerous to the pattern. But no one has studied it that we know.

GonzoTheGreat
07-30-2010, 04:56 AM
Aginor studied how fades travel, and failed to figure it out. One would assume that he had considered the TP as an ingredient, and one would also assume that he had tried to test that.

Ieyasu
07-31-2010, 11:38 AM
Aginor studied how fades travel, and failed to figure it out. One would assume that he had considered the TP as an ingredient, and one would also assume that he had tried to test that.

Ive always thought that the percentage of Fade throwback to human stock fits around the percentage of channelers should that be a human population instead. They may not be able to utilize the one power directly but it has always made sense to me that Fade's are the channeler gene coming out in the human-stock gene pool of the trollocks.

Neilbert
07-31-2010, 12:22 PM
I thought that too, but IIRC the idea was nixed by RJ. Lemme see if I can find the quote.

Myrddraal are not Trollocs who can channel. Their powers are totally independent from the One Power. They really are just throwbacks to the human stock. Harriet added that there are also animal throwbacks, but they just die.

Testing for the TP would be hard, if not impossible right? Aside from asking the Dark One if Myrdraal use it, I really don't think you could get an answer. It's not TP in the traditional sense though, that much is certain. Semerhage proved that one.

Ieyasu
07-31-2010, 03:38 PM
I thought that too, but IIRC the idea was nixed by RJ. Lemme see if I can find the quote.

lol yeah that pretty much killed that idea. TP was used in their creation so I guess it lies along that path. Thanks for the quote.

WinespringBrother
08-03-2010, 10:00 AM
I noticed this little quote as yet overlooked in this thread when I brought my copy of TEOTW to loan to a co-worker:

Eye of the World CH: Prologue - Dragonmount
Tossing back his black cloak, Elan Morin flexed his hands. "A pity for you," he mused, "that one of your Sisters is not here. I was never very skilled at Healing, and I follow a different power now. But even one of them could only give you a few lucid minutes, if you did not destroy her first. What I can do will serve as well, for my purposes." His sudden smile was cruel. "But I fear Shai'tan's healing is different from the sort you know. Be healed, Lews Therin!" He extended his hands, and the light dimmed as if a shadow had been laid across the sun.

It was kind of conspicuous, and maybe intentional, maybe accidental. Perhaps to conceal the darkness, the TP channeler has to invert his/her weave.

GonzoTheGreat
08-03-2010, 10:13 AM
It could also be that the DO was looking in on what was going on. After all, Ishamael had just named him, and that presumably draws his attention.

Sodas
08-03-2010, 11:56 PM
My read on it - my inclination and apparently others to tie the dark aura to Rand's channeling the TP looks to be on target (although, this connection is pretty...obvious as it comes about immediately after he channels it...so not a huge accomplishment by any means to connect the two.) However, while I like to make seemingly thin connections between events and in most cases, this connection that I made and that HBFFerreira appears to have made two days prior, from Brandon's response, would seem to also be on target.

It's also a connection that some Taimandred supporters made. Not saying they were right, just that there were people who did claim Taim used the TP in LoC.

Although, not a terribly huge stretch either - Taim having channeled the True Power. However, it would suggest it came prior to Taim entering that room - which now makes me want to go back and read prior to it to see if we are shown that moment, without realizing it. Something happening that couldn't be or wasn't detected (I can just hear Taim Killed Asmodean theorists now :)).

Lol. Who would have guessed with the series winding down that he'd be boldly trying to wake people up to Taim. Funny that. :D

4Alethinos
08-04-2010, 09:58 PM
I am also responding to Tam's statement that Taim has used the TP.

I was under the impression that only Shamael/Moridin can use the TP at this time. We have never, IIRC, seen any other DF or Chosen use the TP.

Why would Taim be so favored over all of the others of the Chosen who have survived to this point? I do not believe that he has been so favored.

Sodas
08-07-2010, 12:19 AM
The Darkness around Taim isn't noticed until WH, I believe. That has nothing to do with Asmodean, who died in LOC.

It does however show that Taim is more connected and appreciated in the Dark than the common wisdom believes.

"Why would Taim be so favored over all of the others of the Chosen who have survived to this point?" - 4A

Why wouldn't he? He controls the largest force of male channelers dedicated to the Dark with Rand's permission. He's ultimately been able to do what no other Chosen has. So why not favor Taim when Moghedien claims 29 others had been granted the right to use the TP before [ACOS 25]. It's not like the Dark One won't grant the right to use the TP to more people than just his favorites. After all, we must now also assume that he has granted Rand that right. And he's not even a Darkfriend.

GonzoTheGreat
08-07-2010, 04:58 AM
Why would Taim be so favored over all of the others of the Chosen who have survived to this point? I do not believe that he has been so favored.Throughout most of the series, those other Forsaken most likely also could have used the TP, if they had wanted to.
But they were well aware of the pitfalls, and that is why they preferred other options.

Taim may not have been informed of the dangers of the use of the TP. And he may have only used it in the period before it was reserved for Moridin only.

So there does not seem to be any reason to consider this aspect of it strange at all. I'm not convinced Taim ever used it, but the "the Forsaken weren't allowed to, so why would Taim" argument holds no water. It simply fails because of the timing of things.

JonJon Gaidin
08-28-2010, 10:54 AM
Some potential questions - does the Pattern fix the rip created every time Moridin uses the true power to travel? What was unique about what Mierin and her fellow researchers did that prevented the Pattern from fixing the Bore on it's own? (ok, so he will RAFO that one).[/QUOTE]

Are there diff.gateways? Depending on what you want to do?(Travel,Skim, enter TAR in the flesh)Would you use a diff. gateway to get to outside of pattern vacuole that Chosen had a meeting at once? Are some gateways made w/ only True Power as opposed to One Power? Does it matter which Power you use? Is there a diff. between nice uniform(open then close)Gate as opposed to a "rip"? Thank You