PDA

View Full Version : Verin's note, dead Tinkers, and living Tinkers


nameless
07-24-2010, 09:17 PM
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle. I don't have any real evidence for it other than the sheer preponderance of instances in which the Tinkers are introduced and one of the peripheral characters dismisses them as unimportant, only to be proven wrong. Of the top of my head, there's:
- the Aiel from the Tinker's story in EotW who practically spits on them while he gives them his dying message which they in turn manage to deliver via Perrin to the one Aes Sedai actually in a position to do something about it
- Masema's contempt for Moiraine's Tinker spy for which he is immediately chastised in tDR
-the Whitecloak's callous cruelty and indifference for the Tinkers during the Two Rivers Trolloc infestation, in which the Tinkers proved themselves heroes and the Whitecloaks proved themselves cowards
-One of Perrin's Asha'man (Gedwyn I think?) derides Tinkers as cowards in front of the Seanchan and Perrin shames him by praising their courage

On top of that, the hospitality of the Tinkers outside Seanchan-controlled Ebou Dar contributed to Rand's decision to spare the city and his eventual apotheosis on Dragonmount in tGS, and Egwene's use of need in TAR brought her to a Tinker camp. The murdered Tinker's undelivered message in LoC is likely linked to Carridin's campaign of persecution designed to discredit Rand Al'Thor, which was masterminded by Pedron Nial but altered by Ishamael via compulsion. I think the payoff of all the Tinker-related foreshadowing is going to be that the Way of the Leaf is somehow dangerous to the Shadow in a "pure good counteracts pure evil" sort of way and that's why Ishy gave orders to have Carridin's thugs kill all Tinkers on sight.

edit: I mentioned Verin's note in the title because of her cryptic hint that the Dark One wasn't going to fight the way Rand thinks it was.

Kimon
07-24-2010, 10:57 PM
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle. I don't have any real evidence for it other than the sheer preponderance of instances in which the Tinkers are introduced and one of the peripheral characters dismisses them as unimportant, only to be proven wrong. Of the top of my head, there's:
- the Aiel from the Tinker's story in EotW who practically spits on them while he gives them his dying message which they in turn manage to deliver via Perrin to the one Aes Sedai actually in a position to do something about it
- Masema's contempt for Moiraine's Tinker spy for which he is immediately chastised in tDR
-the Whitecloak's callous cruelty and indifference for the Tinkers during the Two Rivers Trolloc infestation, in which the Tinkers proved themselves heroes and the Whitecloaks proved themselves cowards
-One of Perrin's Asha'man (Gedwyn I think?) derides Tinkers as cowards in front of the Seanchan and Perrin shames him by praising their courage

On top of that, the hospitality of the Tinkers outside Seanchan-controlled Ebou Dar contributed to Rand's decision to spare the city and his eventual apotheosis on Dragonmount in tGS, and Egwene's use of need in TAR brought her to a Tinker camp. The murdered Tinker's undelivered message in LoC is likely linked to Carridin's campaign of persecution designed to discredit Rand Al'Thor, which was masterminded by Pedron Nial but altered by Ishamael via compulsion. I think the payoff of all the Tinker-related foreshadowing is going to be that the Way of the Leaf is somehow dangerous to the Shadow in a "pure good counteracts pure evil" sort of way and that's why Ishy gave orders to have Carridin's thugs kill all Tinkers on sight.

edit: I mentioned Verin's note in the title because of her cryptic hint that the Dark One wasn't going to fight the way Rand thinks it was.

Perhaps, though to be honest, hopefully not. The Tinkers are so dull that they make even Perrin seem like an interesting character.

Two emendations however:

It was Neald, not Gedwyn.

And I don't think you meant to (or at least you shouldn't...) use apotheosis for Rand's scene on Dragonmount. An apotheosis would mean that he became a god, that scene was a katharsis.

GonzoTheGreat
07-25-2010, 04:00 AM
And "TELL THE DRAGON REBORN" from LoC could be the little thing we've missed. Or at least, the thing of which we underestimated the importance.
Did Mat ever inform Rand of that caravan full of dead Tinkers? I don't think so, but it may have happened off screen.

lurk
07-25-2010, 03:10 PM
here is some crackbrained idea

to heal the bore the song must be sung :eek:

Terez
07-25-2010, 03:11 PM
You must have missed that theory on the main page.

FelixPax
07-25-2010, 10:04 PM
Lately I've become more and more certain that the Tinkers are going to do something huge in the last book or two. I think the Way of the Leaf may provide the key to winning the Last Battle.

Tinkers already helped changed the Dragon Reborn's heart at the end of tGS. So...

How about 'healing' a world dying from the touch of Mordeth's presents within the Dragon Reborn?

Farms plants, trees, and even weeds are barely growing if at all now.


Padan Fain Mordeth did claim the world will pay:

“You will pay for what was done to me, al’Thor! The world will pay!” He cackled at the night with mad laughter. “The world will pay!”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 19 'Beneath the Dagger' - Padan Fain Mordeth

Rand al’Thor was his, now. I will see him dead at last. And then the world will pay for what was done to me.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 34 'The Wheel Weaves' - Padan Fain Mordeth

Tinkers in essence are the opposite of Mordeth ideologically. They want life to thrive, while Mordeth wants killings and death.


Even if the Bore is successful re-sealed and all the Shadowspawn are removed magically; something needs to heal the damage to the world's plant life. So that world can survive and thrive, again. Otherwise, it would be a hollow victory. Victory over the Shadow, and then the world dying by starvation?


Want to eat? Where is food growing?


What is a solution to this problem?
The Lost Song, of the Tinkers.


The Tinkers Lost Song could be found, within the Tower of Ghenjei by one of the five individuals there or possibly from within Rand's recently regained memories.


There also a distance chance that one of Elayne's ter'angreal items might have a recording of the 'Lost Song', in Caemlyn. I don't recall anyone else suggesting that possibility.


Which possibility --Eelfinn; Rand's memories; ter'angreal items--has the best odds, I suspect?


Remember what do Eelfinn again?

The Eelfinn answer 'need', not questions. :D


Come. I will take you where you may find what you need. Come.” He backed away, gesturing with both hands. “Come.”

The Fires of Heavens, Chapter 24 'Rhuidean' - Mat Cauthon point of view, listening to a Eelfinn man speak

GonzoTheGreat
07-26-2010, 03:53 AM
But that "lost song" is just a big red herring chased after by clueless Tinkers. We know very well that there was never such a song. Wich, I think, rather wrecks your whole reasoning here.

All that the Song was was a OP linked fertilizer. Useful, sure, but by no means the cure-for-everything that Tinker myth has made it into.

Weird Harold
07-26-2010, 02:00 PM
All that the Song was was a OP linked fertilizer. Useful, sure, but by no means the cure-for-everything that Tinker myth has made it into.

That may be true, but Loial proved that Singing is effective against the Blight when he sang Someshta's remains to rest.

"The Song" may not be what the Tinkers think it is, but I don't think it's a complete red herring either -- more of a pastel pink herring. :D

4Alethinos
07-26-2010, 07:48 PM
I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.

I do believe that sealing the Bore will require something special since one would be under some assualt by the Dark One. I have never believed that the use of force whether Balefire on any other attack weave will solve the issue of how does one bring the weaves of the Pattern back together in order to reseal the Dark One's prison for another cycle.

In my mind the Bore is a place where they spread the weaves of the Pattern apart. They did not destroy any weaves made by people or by the Wheel by this action.

Weird Harold
07-26-2010, 09:52 PM
I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.


I don't think seed singing was a singular song -- such as could be recorded and played back for every field -- but a technique for bring many different factors into harmony so that optimum growth can happen.

I think that bringing things into harmony could have a direct bearing on sealing the Bore, but even if it doesn't, it could have a major effect on setting the pre-conditions necessary for a successful sealing -- i.e. undoing the DO's touch on the world.

FelixPax
07-26-2010, 11:28 PM
I do not see that singing a song that provided for crop growth has any direct relationship to sealing the Bore.

How, where might the "Lost Song" be found?

By a Tuatha'an who needs to find the "Lost Song", in a place where 'need' is answered: Eelfinn Realm.


Where did Moiraine and Mierin disappear to, together?

Eelfinn realm.



I do not ever recall claiming that a Lost Song would re-seal the Bore. I have suggested that the "Lost Song" is connected to the Land's Re-birth, after the Dragon Reborn has died.


"The Song" may not be what the Tinkers think it is, but I don't think it's a complete red herring either -- more of a pastel pink herring. :D

The 'Lost Song' has been part of this series lore since the very beginning of the story. It's not a red herring, but part of the ending of this story. AMoL book, is not only going to be about Rand's likely re-birth, but the 'Song' being found and used again.


Who prompted Loial to learn the Treesongs a few years ago?

Questions by a nameless band of Tuatha'an, literally pushed Elder Arent to have Loial develop his Talent of Treesinging.

Who was this the likely leader of band of Tuatha'an?

A Seeker named Valan Luca.

A title he likely lost at Stedding Tsofu, when another Band of led by Seeker Raen, and his wife Ila learned of his band's actions in Shara, to survive. Cast out by the Tuatha'an, and yet in his heart he remains a Da'Shain Aiel.

4Alethinos
07-27-2010, 01:16 AM
I still like the way that you think, WH. That is a very interesting take. The idea of harmony in place of the present chaos is an interesting juxtaposition. I must confess that I like it. I do not see it as how the Bore may be sealed, but it surely could be a part in providing a circumstance for Rand to prevail.

Weird Harold
07-27-2010, 01:29 AM
How, where might the "Lost Song" be found?

Perhaps in the memories of someone who knew the song before it was lost?

Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste. Not so tall as Lews Therin, he was clothed all in black, save for the snow-white lace at his throat and the silverwork on the turned-down tops of his thigh-high boots. He stepped carefully, handling his cloak fastidiously to avoid brushing the dead. The floor trembled with aftershocks, but his attention was fixed on the man staring into the mirror and. laughing.

"Lord of the Morning," he said, "I have come for you."

The laughter cut off as if it had never been, and Lews Therin turned, seeming unsurprised. "Ah, a guest. Have you the Voice, stranger? It will soon be time for the Singing, and here all are welcome to take part. Ilyena, my love, we have a guest. Ilyena, where are you?"

The black-clad man's eyes widened, darted to the body of the golden-haired woman, then back to Lews Therin. "Shai'tan take you, does the taint already have you so far in its grip?"


"And it came to pass in those days, as it had come before and would come again, that the Dark lay heavy on the land and weighed down the hearts of men, and the green things failed, and hope died. And men cried out to the Creator, saying, O Light of the Heavens, Light of the World, let the Promised One be born of the mountain, according to the prophecies, as he was in ages past and will be in ages to come. Let the Prince of the Morning sing to the land that green things will grow and the valleys give forth lambs. Let the arm of the Lord of the Dawn shelter us from the Dark, and the great sword of justice defend us. Let the Dragon ride again on the winds of time.

(from Charal Drianaan te Calamon,
The Cycle of the Dragon.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age)"


The person who most needs to know how to Heal the Pattern and Seal(Heal) the Bore has the memories of the man who even in his madness asked if the stranger has the "Voice" to participate in the "Singing" and is linked to the man the question was asked of -- If the knowledge needed to for Rand to revive the Song isn't available to Rand, it's likely not available to the forces of Light in the Third Age at all.

Weird Harold
07-27-2010, 01:33 AM
I still like the way that you think, WH. That is a very interesting take. The idea of harmony in place of the present chaos is an interesting juxtaposition. I must confess that I like it. I do not see it as how the Bore may be sealed, but it surely could be a part in providing a circumstance for Rand to prevail.
We've known since the prologue of tEotW that Singing -- with a capital -- is going to be important to saving the world; Both because it was one of LTT's last thoughts and because the fourth age histories tell us it is necessary to restore the world.

GonzoTheGreat
07-27-2010, 04:06 AM
On the other hand, all throughout the War of Power people were using Singing to help the farmers, and that did not seem to inconvenience the Shadow all that much.
So there is quite a lot of evidence against this idea, and precious little in favor of it.

lurk
07-27-2010, 04:30 AM
Does the effect of Singing to the land depend on the number of people Singing? or on your talent of Singing (having the Voice) or both or someting else?

Terez
07-27-2010, 04:31 AM
The Blight grew southward after the Strike, so maybe the seed-singers did have some effect.

IamChosen
07-27-2010, 12:25 PM
Rand should also remember the Song from his Rhuidean flashback.

It'd be appropriate for Aiel and Tinkers to sing it together.

Weird Harold
07-27-2010, 12:37 PM
Does the effect of Singing to the land depend on the number of people Singing? or on your talent of Singing (having the Voice) or both or someting else?
I suppose it depends on how good the acoustics are -- or how big the amplifier(s) are.

It doesn't take much input energy to have a large effect if you can hit the resonant frequency(s) of what you're trying to affect. I suspect that matching the harmonies of "the music of the spheres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musica_universalis)" -- or the WOT equivalent -- will require a million-part harmony arrangement. Or a very Talented Soloist. :D

4Alethinos
07-27-2010, 03:20 PM
We know that from the events that Rand experienced upon Dragonmount he is fully integrated with not only LTT's memories, but all of his previous lives. The knowledge of that song does reside in Rand's memory right now.

We do know from the prophecies that the song will be sung again. It is the timing that matters. I would suggest that this event occures after the sealing of the Bore. I am not sure that the song is capable on its own to undo the influence of a still active Dark One.

It is also suggestive that if my assumption is correct that Rand will have to be alive to sing it. Alas, poor Callandor, I knew him well. hehe

Terez
07-27-2010, 08:23 PM
Rand should also remember the Song from his Rhuidean flashback.

It'd be appropriate for Aiel and Tinkers to sing it together.
The Tinkers have already been taught the Songs of Growing by the Ogier. And they didn't know 'the song' when they heard it. I think that seed-singing probably has a genetic component that the Tinkers no longer have due to interbreeding.

FelixPax
07-28-2010, 01:11 AM
Perhaps in the memories of someone who knew the song before it was lost?

WH, if you had read my prior in full. You have read that I had already mentioned Rand's memories as a distinct possibility:

The Tinkers Lost Song could be found, within the Tower of Ghenjei by one of the five individuals there or possibly from within Rand's recently regained memories.


One problem though with Rand's memories being solution: He will be dead soon.


How long will Rand be dead for, upon dying in the Last Battle?

If the land does not grow soon, can civilization survive?

Which will occur first, Rand's re-birth or the 'Lost Song' being sung?


Will Rand stay in the 3rd Constant a long amount of time, before being re-born again?

Who is to say whether Rand will remain ta'veren or not after being re-born?



Or might it not manner how long Rand al'Thor is dead for, for the purposes of Singing to the Land?

Time can run backwards....


“Time?” Birgitte said, smiling. “We have all of time.”

The Eye of the World, Chapter 47 "The Grave Is No Bar to My Call - Rand point of view

Casabamelon
07-28-2010, 08:34 AM
WH, if you had read my prior in full.


*wipes tears from eyes*

Sorry, what did you say? I was laughing so hard I didn't hear the rest.
________
Ipad Guides (http://ipadguides.info)

greatwolf
07-28-2010, 11:56 AM
We know that from the events that Rand experienced upon Dragonmount he is fully integrated with not only LTT's memories, but all of his previous lives. The knowledge of that song does reside in Rand's memory right now.


Just now?

After the wicker panniers were fastened on the packhorse, after every scrap and smudge and track were gone and everyone else was mounted, the Aes Sedai stood in the middle of the hilltop with her eyes closed, not even seeming to breathe. Nothing happened that Rand could see, except that Nynaeve and Egwene shivered despite the heat and rubbed their arms briskly. Egwene's hands suddenly froze on her arms, and she opened her mouth, staring at the Wisdom. Before she could speak, Nynaeve also ceased her rubbing and gave her a sharp look. The two women looked at one another, then Egwene nodded and grinned, and after a moment Nynaeve did, too, though her smile was only halfhearted.
Rand scrubbed his fingers through his hair, already more damp with sweat than with the water he had splashed in his face. He was sure there was something in the silent exchange that he should understand, but that feather-light brush across his mind vanished before he could grasp it.
"What are we waiting for?" Mat demanded, the low band of his scarf across his forehead. He had his bow across the pommel of his saddle with an arrow nocked, and his quiver pulled around on his belt for an easy reach.
Moiraine opened her eyes and started down the hill. "For me to remove the last vestige of what I did here last night. The residues would have dissipated on their own in a day, but I will not take any risk I can avoid now. We are too close, and the Shadow is too strong here. Lan?"


I think Rand is quite wrong again.


@WH

The post you quoted speaks of the Prince of the morning singing trees and lambs. Animals were never a part of the seed singing in the aol, so the prophecy refers to something else. We've seen the effect of Loial's singing on the blight. Its possible that more could be achieved with it than they realized in the aol. I don't recall any mention of it being used against the sahdow, just as a means of growing food. But that would definitely be handy now.

However peace and the convenant the aiel and the tinkers have forgotten, is far more important than food. If Rand doesn't realize that, then two things are sure: (a) he doesn't have the same personality as LT (b) He won't win against the shadow.


In the aol, it seems LT and wife took part in the singing (not certain) and the daisahn aiel were dedicated to him. Rand doesn't even know who the aiel are, or his responsibility towards them unlike the forsaken that are always so shocked by the change in the aiel.

Weird Harold
07-28-2010, 03:27 PM
WH, if you had read my prior in full. You have read that I had already mentioned Rand's memories as a distinct possibility

No, not "a distinct possibility," the only possibility. (counting Rand and Moridin as one intermingled memory bank via the balefire bond)

Either the Song will be found inside Rand's head and Sung by him, or it will remain a giant red herring that has been moldering along from the very beginning of the series. There is no other possibility.

Others with memories of the AOL might know the Song, but they have no reason to Sing it or teach it to the Tinkers.

---

Whether Rand is alive when he Sings the lost Song or not, I can't predict, but I think it wil play out like the old Coca Cola commercial that begins with a single voice singing "I'd like to teach the world to sing" and ends with a massed chorus, representing the whole world, singing along.

If Rand does happen to be dead, it would make getting the song into people's heads easier as he could sing in everyone's dreams at once,

Weird Harold
07-28-2010, 03:40 PM
@WH
... so the prophecy refers to something else.

Quotes from Fourth Age sources aren't Prophecy, they're History (or at least "Legend") and are what DID happen from their POV.

True, we've only seen the WOT equivalent of "talking to your plants" and not seen any evidence of "contented milk from contented cows" (who are made contented by piping classical music into their milking stalls) but that doesn't mean that the same principle of reinforcing the natural harmonics to promote healthy growth wouldn't apply.

(I refer readers to the movie Kelly's Heroes and the character Oddball for a "source" of the philosophy behind seed-singing .)

GonzoTheGreat
07-28-2010, 03:43 PM
Others with memories of the AOL might know the Song, but they have no reason to Sing it or teach it to the Tinkers.Aram, after he's send to Rhuidean to become the first Tinker clan chief. I have to admit that theory has hit a bit of snag, recently. Perhaps Nynaeve will yank him out of TAR, thus saving my neat idea.

4Alethinos
07-28-2010, 10:32 PM
Hehe and LoL. Good luck with that one, Gonzo.

FelixPax
07-29-2010, 06:56 AM
No, not "a distinct possibility," the only possibility. (counting Rand and Moridin as one intermingled memory bank via the balefire bond)

Either the Song will be found inside Rand's head and Sung by him, or it will remain a giant red herring that has been moldering along from the very beginning of the series. There is no other possibility.

Time works differently in the Eelfinn realm, as they know the 'future'. The Eelfinn likely do know the "Lost Song". How do we know this?

A murky gloom was already in existence in the sky above Mat's head in the Eelfinn's realm.

Glossy black except for the glowing bits, they rose from a dull white floor into murky gloom far overhead where even the yellow stripes faded away.

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" - Mat Cauthon point of view

Just like a storm, murky gloom is now in the sky within the 3rd Constant in the Gathering Storm book, according to both Perrin, Egwene points of view.

What were Mat's needs put forth to the Eelfinn, again?

“I have no intention of marrying. And I have no intention of dying, either, whether I am supposed to live again or not. I walk around with holes in my memory, holes in my life, and you stare at me like idiots. If I had my way, I would want those holes filled, but at least answers to my questions might fill some in my future. You have to answer—!”

“Done,” one of the men growled, and Mat blinked.


The Shadow Rising, Chapter 24 "Rhuidean" - Mat Cauthon point of view

Answers to questions about Mat's future.

That knowledge in Mat's Eelfinn created memories directly implies that Eelfinn do know of future events.

That implies a good possibility that the Eelfinn know what the "Lost Song" of the Tuatha'an is. Rand's soul based memories are not the only mechanism nor possibility to find the "Lost Song".


Birgitte knows how the time works in the Wheel. Birgitte knows who and what the Eelfinn, Aelfinn are too.

Who is to say, that Rand will find the "Lost Song"? Why cannot someone else find the "Lost Song", who has been looking for it for years & years?

As in former Tuatha'an Seeker named Valan Luca.

Weird Harold
07-29-2010, 03:21 PM
Who is to say, that Rand will find the "Lost Song"?

Fourth Age historians?

If Rand doesn't find it, there's no point in it being found. Nobody else has the connections he does that would make the Song work onthe scale required.

kivo
08-01-2010, 12:15 PM
I had created a thread called Rand Knows The Song a while back. I re-read the end of Lord Of Chaos last night and Fel's line about "order and belief give strength" fits in with the Singing perhaps playing an important role in the battle at Shayol Ghul. Mass singing (I'd guess led by Perrin, Loial and others) where the pattern is most susceptible to the Dark One's touch could help weaken the Dark One while Rand battles him, if the Order and Belief focused through the Singing can strength that weakness in the pattern the Dark One exploits to touch the world.

Terez
08-01-2010, 01:45 PM
Order is too obviously something to do with the Seanchan. Belief...Linda thinks it will be the Way of the Leaf, and I can see it, but I think most importantly the people need to believe in Rand rather than just hoping he will get on with saving the world and then dying.

crue
08-01-2010, 01:48 PM
I will be extremely disappointed if a song beats the Dark One.

I want a mega-channeling battle.
With some Heroes thrown in.

And a sword fight.

And some more channeling.

And then some more swords.

I DO NOT WANT SINGING.

greatwolf
08-01-2010, 02:02 PM
stop your caterwauling!



:p

crue
08-01-2010, 02:08 PM
Can you imagine Rand at Shayol Ghul, yelling to Mat and Perrin to harmonize with him?

Of course, this lends some credence to Rand faking his death. If I tried to sing the DO away, I would fake my death and go into hiding too.

Neilbert
08-01-2010, 02:12 PM
Ya know, I was with you before, but then you had to go and make it awesome.

Rand Mat and Perrin defeating the Dark One in a musical number by singing acapella would be glorious.

not in book form though

Terez
08-01-2010, 02:17 PM
Rand Mat and Perrin defeating the Dark One in a musical number by singing acapella would be glorious.
Except that Perrin sounds like a stepped-on frog when singing. Though apparently Mat acquired an ear for music with his memories. Maybe he would do better at the flute if he tried again, though I'm thinking his quick fingers would be better for the harp.

Neilbert
08-01-2010, 02:23 PM
Faile taught him to sing?
Anyways the best part would probably be the three of them arguing about who was going to sing soprano.

Or maybe Perrin plays some large bass instrument. Or drums. He likes his hammer...

iokepa
08-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Or maybe Perrin plays some large bass instrument. Or drums. He likes his hammer...

Hehee...that actually made me laugh out loud. Good stuff.

Terez
08-01-2010, 02:38 PM
Faile taught him to sing?
Anyways the best part would probably be the three of them arguing about who was going to sing soprano.

Or maybe Perrin plays some large bass instrument. Or drums. He likes his hammer...
There is a legend (http://www.sciencefairadventure.com/ProjectDetail.aspx?ProjectID=179). A few things wrong with it, but it would be cool to have Perrin be a Pythagoras parallel. :D

Ivhon
08-01-2010, 03:03 PM
"STOP stopstopstopstopstop. God DAMMIT, Mat!! If you keep coming in flat on that high C, we can NOT resolve the chord and the Dark One wins. Do you understand? Grab your balls....do SOMEfugginthing, but HIT THAT HIGH C. Ok. Lets try it again..."

crue
08-01-2010, 03:06 PM
Hopefully there would be some sweet dance moves too. That would make Elayne actually useful for a change.

Terez
08-01-2010, 03:06 PM
"STOP stopstopstopstopstop. God DAMMIT, Mat!! If you keep coming in flat on that high C, we can NOT resolve the chord and the Dark One wins. Do you understand? Grab your balls....do SOMEfugginthing, but HIT THAT HIGH C. Ok. Lets try it again..."
Rand could always goose him at just the right moment. Or grab his balls, for that matter....

nameless
08-01-2010, 03:48 PM
However peace and the convenant the aiel and the tinkers have forgotten, is far more important than food. If Rand doesn't realize that, then two things are sure: (a) he doesn't have the same personality as LT (b) He won't win against the shadow.


This. This exactly. It's not just about the mundane, quantifiable problems like creating food. Those are things that could easily be anticipated, and we know from Verin that the true nature of the battle against the DO is going to be something unexpected.

Order is too obviously something to do with the Seanchan. Belief...Linda thinks it will be the Way of the Leaf, and I can see it, but I think most importantly the people need to believe in Rand rather than just hoping he will get on with saving the world and then dying.
This is a perfectly straightforward and logical interpretation, which is why it's going to be wrong. Unexpected, remember? Harid Fel was a philosopher, not an administrator. He was barely even aware of things like troop morale and manufacturing infrastructure and all the other reasons that "belief and order" would help strengthen a nation's military and boost civilian productivity. His area of expertise was the nature of the Pattern, and it stands to reason that his final message relates to the nature of the Pattern. We've already seen through Shadar Logoth that a large concentration of negative emotions like paranoia, with the addition of Mordeth's mysterious catalyst, can warp reality for eons to come. I think that positive emotions like belief, order, dedication, and love will end up having their own power to affect reality using Rand, Mat, and Perrin's super-ta'veren field as a catalyst.

Terez
08-01-2010, 03:53 PM
How is that different from what I said? He needs the people to actually believe in him; it's an important theme of the series, not a red herring. Same with the Seanchan. That is the only reason they are actually needed. I'm not saying that the Way of the Leaf won't play a role, or seed-singing.

nameless
08-01-2010, 04:26 PM
Fair enough... I thought you meant that the Seanchan would supply order through their superior administrative capabilities and provide much-needed logistical support (which they probably will, but that's not the kind of order Fel was talking about).

4Alethinos
08-04-2010, 09:38 PM
We do know that by the end of TGS Rand had concluded that Callandor was the correct tool to use and not the Choedan Kal.

Callandor's very shape tells us that it is not to be used as sword.

In order to use Callandor properly, Rand, or its user, must have two female channelers to act as buffers. This suggests that it has always required a joint use of both sides of the OP to succeed.

Brute force will not be the final answer to defeating the DO. Perhaps some of his minions will require force in order for them to be cleared out of the way just like other pieces of rubble.

It seems evident that Moridin must be defeated prior to any engagement to seal the Bore.

Mome of this is new, I know, but I felt that some type of summary would be helpful.