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View Full Version : Will Rand use the True Power to rebuild the Dark One's prison?


amazinglarry
08-09-2010, 02:14 PM
Here's an idea that I don't have much evidence for, but wanted to throw out there for discussion. I'm wondering if anyone has written up a theory or discussed the idea that Rand will use the True Power to re-imprison the Dark One. I didn't find anything by searching the forums and theories but maybe I missed it.

Basically this idea assumes that Rand's use of the TP in TGS is going to serve some plot purpose beyond simply allowing him to escape the bracelets and kill Semirhage. We already know from BS that Rand's TP use will have consequences, by which he probably means that Rand will struggle with the addictive properties of the TP. It would be pretty cool (and ironic) if Rand were to fight TP addiction over the next 2 books and finally emerge victorious by using the TP to rebuild the DO's prison. I say "rebuild" rather than "reseal" because the Herid Fel note implies that the prison must be broken open and rebuilt rather than the bore re-sealed. It seems that a One Power seal for the prison is insufficient, since Lews Therin and co. already tried this and we all know how that turned out.

I guess the main problem with this idea is that the DO controls who gets to access the TP, so the minute he detects Rand using it against him he could simply cut Rand off. One way to get around this is to assume that Rand can channel the TP w/o the DO's explicit permission through Moridin. Maybe Rand can simply use Moridin's TP permission by proxy using the balefire-crossed-streams-ghostbusters-connection that the two share. This seems to be how he accessed the TP in TGS (although I know there are some who argue that he does indeed have explicit permission). This would imply that the DO cannot cut Rand off w/o also cutting Moridin off. This would certainly create a conundrum for the DO if Moridin and Rand start fighting each other with the TP.

Another problem is that I haven't seen much in terms of direct foreshadowing that supports this theory. Usually RJ drops a lot of hints to foreshadow major events in the series. Can anyone think of anywhere in the series to look for supporting quotes?

There are a number of double-crossing options that could be thrown in here to add extra wrinkles to the story. Rand could turn to the Dark Side to gain the DO's trust and then double-cross him. Or Rand, using information from Herid Fel and Min, could manage to convince Moridin that the DO will always inevitably lose at the end of each Age. I could see Moridin switching sides if the philosophical argument is 100% foolproof, but overall this seems pretty unlikely. Would be an interesting direction to take the story though.

So what do you guys think?

Oh yeah, since I don't post here often I should probably introduce myself briefly. I've been lurking on theoryland for years now (since around the CoT release) but rarely post anything. Hi!

amazinglarry

Terez
08-09-2010, 02:25 PM
This was brought up right after TGS; the problem is that channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul supposedly burns you to a crisp if you try it.

Ieyasu
08-09-2010, 02:28 PM
So what do you guys think?


In TGS, LTT said "something has to touch" he himself used saidin and the result was an imperfect seal and tainted saidin. Rand muses if it could be as simple as repeating what LTT did but using both powers, or if that would have just tainted both halves of the power. So it may be possible.

amazinglarry
08-09-2010, 02:32 PM
This was brought up right after TGS; the problem is that channeling the True Power at Shayol Ghul supposedly burns you to a crisp if you try it.

Yeah, I remember this interview quote...that could be a problem. But the Rand-Moridin link adds another dimension. I wonder if Rand could channel the TP near Shayol Ghul safely if he used Moridin as a conduit while Moridin was located somewhere far away? Or could Rand effectively fry Moridin by reaching through him to channel the TP while Moridin was at SG?

amazinglarry

nameless
08-09-2010, 03:35 PM
I think the foreshadowing points to Fain being the trick to resealing the Dark One. It seems unlikely that the DO would allow his own essence to be used against him, even if it meant cutting Moridin off from the TP for a little while. The problem is, as Ieyasu posted, that some part of the prison has to come into direct contact with the Dark One and if that part is made of the One Power you end up with a repeat scenario of what happened in the Age of Legends when the Source became tainted. Based on what happened with Rand's wound and at the Cleansing I think the ultimate solution will be to throw Fain into the prison and let him act as a buffer between the Dark One and the True Source so that he's the only thing that gets tainted.

Tamyrlin
08-09-2010, 03:35 PM
But it was not very well developed, so I haven't posted it yet.

4Alethinos
08-09-2010, 03:40 PM
It was my understanding of Herid Fel's statement that he was referring to the remaining seals to the prison not all of which are destroyed or broken.

We have debated long and hard about the extent to which the prison itself is damaged. I confess that it is not clear to me based upon the evidence just how or how much it may be damaged. What we are pretty sure about is that the Pattern was not a part of the prison per se. It was more like a moat about the castle walls and not necessarily in contact with the prison itself.

Since only the One Power was used to make the Bore, it seems that only the OP need be used to seal it up.

The TP is from the DO only and may or may not be needed to seal it. It may be needed to force the DO back so that the Bore can be closed by other means.

Another question is: Did Ishamael use a TP based balefire during the battle in Tear and Callandor was invulnerable to it? If so to the former, then it is likely that it is a tool to be used in defense against the DO at Shayul Ghul.

I have no clue how anyone mortal can duplicate or rebuild a prison made by the creator. When this universe was created.

amazinglarry
08-09-2010, 05:03 PM
I have no clue how anyone mortal can duplicate or rebuild a prison made by the creator. When this universe was created.

To clarify, I was basically equating breaking the seals with destroying the prison. I suppose it's not a given that the two things are one in the same. Is it known whether the seals hold together the entire prison or just the seal that was placed on the bore by LTT? From the encyclopaedia WOT entry on the seals I got the impression that it was the whole prison, but I didn't look up the relevant passages in the books...

Either way, I don't really think it affects the general idea of the TP being used to seal up the DO.

Fain as a buffer between the DO and the OP makes sense given how Shadar Logoth was used to negate the taint during the cleansing and his expected Gollum-like role. It seems to me like using the same concept twice, though, something I wouldn't predict of Jordan.

amazinglarry

iokepa
08-09-2010, 07:11 PM
The problem is, as Ieyasu posted, that some part of the prison has to come into direct contact with the Dark One and if that part is made of the One Power you end up with a repeat scenario of what happened in the Age of Legends when the Source became tainted.

It wasn't the source that became tainted, but merely the male half. You can tell from the books, and quotes from the man himself that women and men need to work together to achieve anything really great...like taking out the DO.

That was one of the serious flaws in LTT's attempt - it was only men. I guess you could argue that if women and men had attempted to seal the Bore together then the whole One Power would have been tainted, but that's hard to prove IMO.

I'm not saying that Fain won't play a part..although I hope he doesn't become the WoT gollum by being thrown into anything resembling a volcano.

Terez
08-09-2010, 07:22 PM
I'm sure if RJ does that he will put a nice twist on it for us.

Neilbert
08-09-2010, 07:48 PM
That was one of the serious flaws in LTT's attempt - it was only men. I guess you could argue that if women and men had attempted to seal the Bore together then the whole One Power would have been tainted, but that's hard to prove IMO.

You could argue it, or you could just look up the interview quote where RJ explicitly states that if women had been involved then saidar would have been tainted too.

Kalli
08-10-2010, 12:33 PM
Since only the One Power was used to make the Bore, it seems that only the OP need be used to seal it up.

The TP is from the DO only and may or may not be needed to seal it. It may be needed to force the DO back so that the Bore can be closed by other means.

Now I know I don't post much and I've lurked for years but...

I've heard RJ describe the wheel as being more like a spiral... No channelers, then channelers the the Dark one then a battle and he gets resealed, and everyone forgets about channeling... etc. etc. etc.

So from there I think it kinda goes into the biggest question we'll never know about (in a non-plot line perspective.) Did the creator create the world with a with a thinness over the Dark ones prison?

Just my opinion but I think he did. Otherwise we would most likely be seeing a linear world and not a 'spiral' world... So if the spiral is to continue and it's not really the last battle then it will be patched. If it is the LAST BATTLE then the Dark one must be killed or Rand must do what the Creator did not....

I don't think so.

iokepa
08-10-2010, 12:37 PM
You could argue it, or you could just look up the interview quote where RJ explicitly states that if women had been involved then saidar would have been tainted too.

Oops! That's what I get for posting before I'm done reading through the interview database.

*runs into the woods to keep reading*

nameless
08-10-2010, 06:26 PM
I'm not saying that Fain won't play a part..although I hope he doesn't become the WoT gollum by being thrown into anything resembling a volcano

If Fain is paralleled with any Tolkien character, it's Grima Wormtongue, which would make his ultimate role to be the one who kills Ishamael (Saruman). Diving into a volcano to chase after his shiny jeweled dagger may or may not happen afterwards.

Terez
08-10-2010, 07:04 PM
If Fain is paralleled with any Tolkien character, it's Grima Wormtongue, which would make his ultimate role to be the one who kills Ishamael (Saruman). Diving into a volcano to chase after his shiny jeweled dagger may or may not happen afterwards.
The beauty of RJ is that:


Question from Sil7ver: Is it true that many of your characters are based on Norse mythos?
RJ: Not many. Some. And no character is purely based on one myth or one legend.
For example: three obvious Merlin parallels are: Thom Merrilin, the Amyrlin Seat (and Tamyrlin), and Moiraine. Thom and Moiraine are both Gandalf parallels, and Gandalf was himself a Merlin parallel. Moiraine is also Morgan Le Fay. Morgause was Le Fay's sister, but Morgase is only Moiraine's sister by virtue of having married her brother. Both Morgase and Elayne are Guinevere parallels, and Nynaeve too. I could go on and on, but it gets complicated, and I'm hardly an expert on the legends, or Tolkien (I've read Tolkien, but it's been years, and I only read the trilogy+1). Oh yeah, and Gawyn is both Gawain and Mordred. ;) Probably some other things too, like a bit of Judas or other betrayer roles.

greatwolf
08-11-2010, 01:47 AM
If it is the LAST BATTLE then the Dark one must be killed or Rand must do what the Creator did not....

I don't think so.


Why not? There's liberty to think here, its TL! Though I don't see Rand doing it (LT can, not Rand) it might just be that the creator intended for the dragon to finish what he started. LT's musings about the Creator moving on and leaving men to sort things as they will, comes to mind here.


It's unlikely in the series since RJ has said that the nature of time is circular, but iirc, he never said it was impossible to break the wheel. Its interesting even if it doesn't happen.

E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.

GonzoTheGreat
08-11-2010, 05:14 AM
E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.That's what he said, isn't it:
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.Of course, could still be the DO, after all.
He may be reasoning that the last of the Ones Chosen to Rule will be the Chosen One.

Ieyasu
08-11-2010, 11:37 PM
Why not? There's liberty to think here, its TL! Though I don't see Rand doing it (LT can, not Rand) it might just be that the creator intended for the dragon to finish what he started. LT's musings about the Creator moving on and leaving men to sort things as they will, comes to mind here.


It's unlikely in the series since RJ has said that the nature of time is circular, but iirc, he never said it was impossible to break the wheel. Its interesting even if it doesn't happen.

E: FWIW, I disagree with LTT. Even an artist who makes a work of art tends to revisit and enjoy what he made occasionally. There's no reason the creator shouldn't return to see how things are progressing. Even if he plays no part.

It wasnt LTT's thought, reread it.

halo6819
08-13-2010, 11:04 AM
i have always imagined the more as a wound in the side of the DO's prison, and the seals are a cork.
e.g. your shot in the arm and some one decides to stop the bleeding by sticking a cork in it. sure it may work for a while, but eventual the cork erodes and we have the same problem. as many have said, how can a man duplicate what the creator has done, i say he cant. instead he must pull the cork out and then stitch the healthy ends of the prison together.

Neilbert
08-13-2010, 05:29 PM
Unless it was made to be duplicated by mankind.

GonzoTheGreat
08-14-2010, 04:33 AM
as many have said, how can a man duplicate what the creator has done, i say he cant.It is possible that the Creator has said explicity that he can:
"The Light blind you, Ba'alzamon! This has to end!"
IT IS NOT HERE.
It was not Rand's thought, making his skull vibrate.
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.Now, you could try to argue that Rand is not the Chosen One, but since Buffy hasn't appeared in the series, yet, I think that argument is difficult to maintain.
Or you could argue that sealing away the DO properly is not something that must be done. Once again, that is not going to be an easy argument to make.

halo6819
08-18-2010, 12:16 AM
sorry my post wasnt very clear.

i meant Rand is going to be a surgeon, and use either both saidin and saidar to stitch the wound that is the bore back together or use the TP to do it. that way nothing touches he is only touching the edges of the DO's prison.

Another poor analogy, there is hole in the side walk, LTT and the hundred companions made a patch with Saidin, and that touched to DO and that was bad news. Rand has to push the concrete around it into place.

that was worse then my first analogy...

GonzoTheGreat
08-18-2010, 03:49 AM
i meant Rand is going to be a surgeon, and use either both saidin and saidar to stitch the wound that is the bore back together or use the TP to do it. that way nothing touches he is only touching the edges of the DO's prison.Problem with such stitching is that it remains a weak spot, at least until it heals. We do not know how long that would take, of course. But until it is healed, the DO could be busy taking the stitching apart from the inside.

Think of the scene in Alien, where the monster comes out of the belly of a man. Having a surgeon stitch that wound closed, while the monster is tearing it open from the inside, would not be very effective.

Casabamelon
08-18-2010, 02:38 PM
Think of the scene in Alien, where the monster comes out of the belly of a man. Having a surgeon stitch that wound closed, while the monster is tearing it open from the inside, would not be very effective.

Now that, sir, is a brilliant analogy. 2 thumbs up.
________
Tv forum (http://www.tv-gossip.com/)

4Alethinos
08-20-2010, 01:46 PM
I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this. It is at this point that the analogy about Alien breaks down somewhat. I do agree that the DO would certainly do what he could to maintain the opening even if he cannot expand it. It is the Wheel of Time that is his object to destroy. The device that maintains the Pattern must be destroyed in order to completely free the DO.

It is clear that any closure of the Bore will always leave a weak spot in the Pattern. That is the Pattern of all cycles including the very first one. Any argument suggests otherwise is doomed to failure, IMO.

My opinion is that the TP is not necessary to close the Bore. The WoT was created by the creator and the Bore was opened by use of the OP. It is likely that it was a combination of Saidar and Saidin that brougnt this to pass even though Mierin was not present at the moment of the opening. This suggests the Rand is absolutly correct in believing that Callandor is vital to the closure of the Bore.

Rand's only use of the TP was via his link to Moridin/Ishamael and not any direct link to the DO. If, as I believe, Moridin will be destroyed, in soul at least, before Rand gets to the actual location of the Bore that any link to the TP by Rand will be lost. As I said earlier, I do not think it is necessary, either.

Weird Harold
08-20-2010, 02:01 PM
I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this.

How do you account for the DO's increased (and increasing) ability to touch the world if the Bore has never been expanded beyond the original "drill-pipe" dimensions?

Ahumm
08-20-2010, 02:15 PM
How do you account for the DO's increased (and increasing) ability to touch the world if the Bore has never been expanded beyond the original "drill-pipe" dimensions?

Hasn't that been explained as the seal on the Bore weakening as the focal points are destroyed?

Weird Harold
08-20-2010, 04:08 PM
Hasn't that been explained as the seal on the Bore weakening as the focal points are destroyed?
Not the increased touch on the world during the War of Power(AOL). 4A seems to be suggesting that the amount of access the DO has/had at any time since the Bore was made, is the same as He had at the moment it was made.

GonzoTheGreat
08-20-2010, 04:11 PM
I think that it safe to say that the DO has never been able to expand the Bore since it was first opened. We have the whole AoL experience to justify this.Could you give me the quote which justifies this justification?

To help you on your way, I'll give this one:
Detractors pointed out that the Bore had enlarged since it was first drilled, and behind the barricade erected by the sa'angreal it would continue to grow, so that eventually the Dark One might free himself within the barrier. The barrier might well contain the Dark One when all he could do was reach through the relatively small Bore, but could it hold back the Dark One let loose?That seems to suggest rather strongly that those who knew what they were talking about (LTT et al.) believed the Bore had actually grown, and was continuing to do so.

Zak
08-23-2010, 02:01 PM
In TGS, Lews Therin not only says something must touch him, (Ch 22, The Last That Could Be Done, p.345 hardcover), he also says, "We touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap..." The 'True Power' would be ideal for this. Lews Therin also refers to the True Power as being one in the same with 'Him!' (the Dark One) (pg 354 hardcover, Ch. 22 again) "Oh Light," Lews Therin suddenly screamed. "That's impossible! We can't use it! Cast it away! That is death we hold, death and betrayal!
It is HIM."

But what intrigues me is the opening the Dark One reaches through being called The Bore. From LOC, Chapter 27, Gifts Rand describes to Egwene how he travels: "I bore a hole."

Could the 'crack' in the Dark One's prison, a.k.a. the Bore, merely be a gateway, held open by the D.O.? Could the Patch be failing because it is a patch, when what they should have done was find a way to close the gateway? But then, Lanfear was supposed to be the one to make the bore, and Saidar gateways don't work that way. The True Power seems to be similar to Saidin, but I'm not sure she could have used that before the Bore was opened. I thought there was a suggestion of a male helping her, but I can't find the reference.

Anyway, if true, Rand and company wouldn't have to 'duplicate the work of the Creator', they'd just have to remove a gateway. It would certainly close a lot of, um, holes, so to speak, in current theories. :)

My theory about slaying the D.O.? Can't be done. Balance must be maintained for the Wheel to keep turning. The D.O. wants him to try, though, because trying might just break the Wheel.

Just my two copper...

Terez
08-23-2010, 04:44 PM
In TGS, Lews Therin not only says something must touch him, (Ch 22, The Last That Could Be Done, p.345 hardcover), he also says, "We touched it to the Dark One. It was the only way! Something has to touch him, something to close the gap..." The 'True Power' would be ideal for this.
What makes you think that? Aside from the fact that trying to channel the True Power at Shayol Ghul will burn you to a crisp, it seems illogical to try to close the gap with the Dark One himself. He needs to be shut away.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rand using the True Power is a bad thing, and that he's going to have to fight the temptation to use it again in the future. The running theme so far is that Rand is rightly fearful of too much power. It wouldn't make sense thematically for him to destroy the Choedan Kal only to give in to the temptation of a power that is evil.

Zak
08-23-2010, 08:36 PM
What makes you think that? Aside from the fact that trying to channel the True Power at Shayol Ghul will burn you to a crisp, it seems illogical to try to close the gap with the Dark One himself. He needs to be shut away.

Also, I'm pretty sure that Rand using the True Power is a bad thing, and that he's going to have to fight the temptation to use it again in the future. The running theme so far is that Rand is rightly fearful of too much power. It wouldn't make sense thematically for him to destroy the Choedan Kal only to give in to the temptation of a power that is evil.

I kind of agree with you, except for 2 points. Nothing says that Rand has to be the one to channel the True Power (weak, I know...). Also, Shayol Ghul is described as not being where the Bore is, just a place where a 'thinness' in the pattern lets them talk to the 'Great Lord'. Nothing says they have to be at Shayol Ghul to close the Bore.

Terez
08-23-2010, 09:51 PM
That only really addresses one of the issues I raised, and I'm not sure it addresses that one either. But to be honest, there are a lot of questions involved in how the Bore will be sealed, and I'm not really in a hurry to ask those questions as it doesn't seem likely to come up in TOM, and we will probably be given another clue or two in that book.

Of course, it could be that Rand really needs to use the True Power, and that's the only reason why the Pattern decided he needed to be linked with Moridin. But the destruction of the Choedan Kal seems to speak against it...or more specifically, Brandon's comments on it, and RJ's previous comments on why Rand left Callandor and the Choedan Kal behind until book 8. Incidentally, he went for both after he became linked with Moridin at the end of book 7, and his push to Ebou Dar might be among the first signs of Moridin creeping in.

I'm thinking that Rand needs to sever that link with Moridin for him to have a chance at victory, and that his death will be required. Which would of course also sever his access to the True Power...but more importantly, I think, it will sever the direct connection to the Dark One.

As for why he needed to be linked to Moridin...I'm guessing it's a matter of balance. It's required that the Chosen One make the sacrifice...he must stay alive until it is time for him to die, and he must overcome all obstacles in the way of his fated death, and the Moridin link is the biggest of those obstacles I think. He has to fight the influence that Moridin's mind is having on his own psyche, as he did on Dragonmount, but in the end, it is that link that will make it necessary for Rand to die. I think that he will understand that before he dies, or maybe as he's dying.

And of course, he would have to be brought back to life in that case, and I think that Slayer is evidence that Moridin has anticipated that as well.

Davian93
08-24-2010, 11:36 AM
I agree with Terez that Rand HAS to die to have any chance at victory. Death is likely the only way to sever that link.

Zak
08-27-2010, 10:18 AM
I agree with Terez that Rand HAS to die to have any chance at victory. Death is likely the only way to sever that link.

Of course he has to die.. The Aelfinn (? Eelfinn) told him that "to live, you must die." That implies there is a way to live again, but that could just mean his next life. After all, if he fails, no one will have a next life.

Bryan
09-04-2010, 05:13 PM
Alternatively, couldn't Rand just go to the Foxes and say "Heal me and sever my link with the Dark One"? And then the Foxes kill him like they killed Mat and he's rescued by... someone? Just a thought.

GonzoTheGreat
09-05-2010, 03:34 AM
Alternatively, couldn't Rand just go to the Foxes and say "Heal me and sever my link with the Dark One"? And then the Foxes kill him like they killed Mat and he's rescued by... someone? Just a thought.Yeah, but Rand happened to be just at the right moment there, because he is such a strong ta'veren. That "someone" you mention would probably just be a little bit too late, which means that TG would then get a little bit messy.

Oh, and as an extra: someone sort of destroyed the door to the Foxes, making this solution just a little bit impossible.

But apart from those little bits: good idea.

4Alethinos
09-15-2010, 12:06 PM
From Weird Harold:

Not the increased touch on the world during the War of Power(AOL). 4A seems to be suggesting that the amount of access the DO has/had at any time since the Bore was made, is the same as He had at the moment it was made.

The size of the Bore has not increased since it was made, IMO. However, what has changed is the battle between the DO and the Wheel that has impacted the Pattern. It is here that the DO has changed things and impacted the world which is supposed to be driven by the WoT and the resulting Pattern. This is why certain normal uses of preservation weaves are failing. It is why we see buildings being distorted by changes in the Pattern. This is because it is the Pattern that contains the form and shape of buildings and other such things.

The DO has increased his ability to subvert the Pattern and that is unquestionable. It is the DO's present ability to increase beyond what he had before the seals is what is in question. He is only now beginning to restore the impacts that must have been true just at the end of the War of Power.

As was said earlier, the DO is at war with the Wheel and not the Pattern per se.

BTW, I somewhat disagree with the idea that the Bore is a wound in the Pattern. It is a spreading of the threads and is not significantly different than what is accomplished by skimming. It is the Pattern that contains spatial coordinates and is why the Pattern is used by both saidin and saidar users to make gates. None of these are considered wounds in the Pattern. Neither is the Bore. The Bore just removed certain spatial and dimensional restrictions that are contained within the Pattern itself.

It is this spastiaol and dimensional imperatives that must be restored, IMO. It is important to note that what happened at the making of the Bore did not removed any threads of lives from the Pattern except those killed by the explosion that followed.

Will the DO attempt to resist this? Clearly, yes. However, the DO was not able to assist in the actual work done to make the Bore in the first place. He only took advantage of the opening to make himself known in a more present way other than sending little hints of power to such as Mierin who began the instigation for the whole project. That was all he could do at that time.

Just a few of my thoughts to make clear what I have been saying for a number of years now.