Politics as usual

[4Alethinos]

Here is something interesting I just got via e-mail

OBAMA - LIAR, LIAR, PANTS ON FIRE!


1.) Selma Got Me Born - LIAR, your parents felt safe enough to have you in 1961 - Selma had no effect on your birth, as Selma was in 1965. (Google 'Obama Selma' for his full March 4, 2007 speech and articles about its various untruths.)





2.) Father Was A Goat Herder - LIAR, he was a privileged, well educated youth, who went on to work with the Kenyan government.





3.) Father Was A Proud Freedom Fighter - LIAR, he was part of one of the most corrupt and violent governments Kenya has ever had.

4.) My Family Has Strong Ties To African Freedom - LIAR, your cousin Raila
Odinga has created mass violence in attempting to overturn a legitimate
election in 2007, in Kenya . It is the first widespread violence in decades. The current government is pro-American but Odinga wants to overthrow it and establish Muslim Sharia law. Your half-brother, Abongo Obama, is Odinga's follower. You interrupted your New Hampshire campaigning to speak to Odinga on the phone. Check out the following link for verification of t hat....and for more.

http://biz.yahoo.com/ibd/080115/issues.html?.v=1

Obama's cousin Odinga in Kenya ran for president and tried to get Sharia muslim law in place there. When Odinga lost the elections, his followers have burned
Christians' homes and then burned men, women and children alive in a
Christian church where they took shelter. Obama SUPPORTED his cousin
before the election process here started. Google Obama and Odinga and see
what you get. No one wants to know the truth.

5.) My Grandmother Has Always Been A Christian - LIAR, she does her daily Salat prayers at 5am according to her own interviews. Not to mention, Christianity wouldn't allow her to have been one of 14 wives to 1 man.

6.) My Name is African Swahili - LIAR, your name is Arabic and 'Baraka' (from which Barack came) means 'blessed' in that language. Hussein is also Arabic and so is Obama.

Barack Hussein Obama is not half black. If elected, he would be the first Arab-American President, not the first black President. Barack Hussein Obama is 50%
Caucasian from his mother's side and 43.75% Arabic and 6.25% African Negro
from his father's side. While Barack Hussein Obama's father was from Kenya, his father's family was mainly Arabs. Barack Hussein Obama's father was only 12.5% African Negro and 87.5% Arab (his father's birth certificate even states he's Arab, not African Negro). From....and for more ....go to.....

http://www.arcadeathome.com/newsboy.phtml?Barack_Hussein_Obama_-_Arab-
American,_only_6.25%25_African

7.) I Never Practiced Islam - LIAR, you practiced it daily at school, where you were registered as a Muslim and kept that faith for 31 years,until your wife made you change, so you could run for office.

4-3-08 Article "Obama was 'quite religious in islam'" http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=60559

8.) My School In Indonesia Was Christian - LIAR, you were registered as Muslim
there and got in trouble in Koranic Studies for making faces (check your own book).

February 28, 2008. Kristoff from the New York Times a year ago: Mr. Obama recalled the opening lines of the Arabic call to prayer, reciting them with a first-rate accent. In a remark that seemed delightfully uncalculated (it'll give Alabama voters heart attacks), Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset." This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says "Obama's narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts."

9.) I Was Fluent In Indonesian - LIAR, not one teacher says you could speak the language.


10.) Because I Lived In Indonesia , I Have More Foreign Experience - LIAR, you ere there from the ages of 6 to 10, and couldn't even speak the language. What did you learn, how to study the Koran and watch cartoons.

11.) I Am Stronger On Foreign Affairs - LIAR, except for Africa (surprise) and the Middle East (bigger surprise), you have never been anywhere else on the planet and thus have NO experience with our closest allies.

12.) I Blame My Early Drug Use On Ethnic Confusion - LIAR, you were quite content in high school to be Barry Obama, no mention of Kenya and no mention of struggle to identify - your classmates said you were just fine.



13.) An Ebony Article Moved Me To Run For Office - LIAR, Ebony has yet to find the article you mention in your book. It doesn't, and never did, exist.

14.) A Life Magazine Article Changed My Outlook On Life - LIAR, Life has yet to find
the article you mention in your book. It doesn't, and never did, exist.

15.) I Won't Run On A National Ticket In '08 - LIAR, here you are, despite saying, live on TV, that you would not have enough experience by then, and you are all about having experience first.

16.) Present Votes Are Common In Illinois - LIAR, they are common for YOU, but not many others have 130 NO VOTES.

17.) Oops, I Misvoted - LIAR, only when caught by church groups and democrats, did you beg to change your misvote .

18.) I Was A Professor Of Law - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

19.) I Was A Constitutional Lawyer - LIAR, you were a senior lecturer ON LEAVE.

20.) Without Me, There Would Be No Ethics Bill - LIAR, you didn't write it, introduce it, change it, or create it.

21.) The Ethics Bill Was Hard To Pass - LIAR, it took just 14 days from start to finish.

22.) I Wrote A Tough Nuclear Bill - LIAR, your bill was rejected by your own party for its pandering and lack of all regulation - mainly because of your Nuclear Donor, Exelon, from which David Axelrod came.

23.) I Have Released My State Records - LIAR, as of March, 2008, state bills you spon sored or voted for have yet to be released, exposing all the special interests pork hidden within.

24.) I Took On The Asbestos Altgeld Gardens Mess - LIAR, you were part of a
large group of people who remedied Altgeld Gardens . You failed to mention anyone else but yourself, in your books.

25.) My Economics Bill Will Help America - LIAR, your 111 economic policies were just combined into a proposal which lost 99-0, and even YOU voted against your own bill.

26.) I Have Been A Bold Leader In Illinois - LIAR, even your own supporters claim to have not seen BOLD action on your part.

27.) I Passed 26 Of My Own Bills In One Year - LIAR, they were not YOUR bills, but rather handed to you, after their creation by a fellow Senator, to assist you in a future bid for higher office.


28.) No One Contacted Canada About NAFTA - LIAR, the Candian Government issued the names and a memo of the conversation your campaign had with them.

29.) I Am Tough On Terrorism - LIAR, you missed the Iran Resolution vote on
terrorism and your good friend Ali Abunimah supports the destruction of Israel.

30.) I Am Not Acting As President Yet - LIAR, after the NAFTA Memo, a dead
terrorist in the FARC, in Colombia, was found with a letter stating how you and he were working together on getting FARC recognized officially.

31.) I Didn't Run Ads In Florida - LIAR, you allowed national ads to run 8-12 times per day for two weeks - and you still lost.

32.) I Won Michigan - LIAR, no you didn't.

33.) I won Nevada - LIAR, no yo u did not.

34.) I Want All Votes To Count - LIAR, you said let the delegates decide.

35.) I Want Americans To Decide - LIAR, you prefer caucuses that limit the vote, confuse the voters, force a public vote, and only operate during small windows of time.

36.) I passed 900 Bills in the State Senate - LIAR, you passed 26, most of which you didn't write yourself.

37.) My Campaign Was Extorted By A Friend - LIAR, that friend is threatening to sue if you do not stop saying this. Obama has stopped saying this.

38.) I Believe In Fairness, Not Tactics - LIAR, you used tactics to eliminate Alice Palmer from running against you.

39.) I Don't Take PAC Money - LIAR, you take loads of it.

40.) I don't Have Lobbysists - LIAR, you have over 47 lobbyists, and counting.


41.) My Campaign Had Nothing To Do With The 1984 Ad - LIAR, your own campaign worker made the ad on his Apple in one afternoon.

42.) My Campaign Never Took Over MySpace - LIAR, Tom, who started MySpace issued a warning about this advertising to MySpace clients.

43.) I Inspire People With My Words - LIAR, you inspire people with other people's
words.

44.) I Have Passed Bills In The U.S. Senate - LIAR, you have passed A BILL in the U.S. Senate - for Africa, which shows YOUR priorities.

45.) I Have Always Been Against Iraq - LIAR, you wer en't in office to vote against it
AND you have voted to fund it every single time, unlike Kucinich, who seems to be out gutting you Obama. You also seem to be stepping back from your departure date - AGAIN.

46.) I Have Always Supported Universal Health Care - LIAR, your plan leaves us all to pay for the 15,000,000 who don't have to buy it.

[irerancincpkc]

Look! A huge pile of crappy propaganda and lies! What fun!

Without even looking, I could debunk half of them.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I see some of it claims support, 4A, what about the rest?

[Davian93]

LOL...I'd love to actually fact check some of those to make sure.

Mr. Obama described the call to prayer as "one of the prettiest sounds on Earth at sunset." This is just one example of what Pamela is talking about when she says "Obama's narrative is being altered, enhanced and manipulated to whitewash troubling facts."

In defense of this one...the call to prayer is a very pretty sound. I still remember it every morning and evening when I was in Bosnia. Does that make me a Muslim or just appreciative of nice sounds?

[Davian93]

Look! A huge pile of crappy propaganda and lies! What fun!

Without even looking, I could debunk half of them.

Well, get crackin! Oh and you can't use Obama's book or quotes to do so...you need outside confirmation. :)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

In defense of this one...the call to prayer is a very pretty sound. I still remember it every morning and evening when I was in Bosnia. Does that make me a Muslim or just appreciative of nice sounds?

You're a Muslim, you're a Muslim!

Heh, I also think it's very beautiful. Do they audition for that? Line up the Imams and say, "OK, let me hear your best call!"

[irerancincpkc]

Well, get crackin! Oh and you can't use Obama's book or quotes to do so...you need outside confirmation. :)
Outside confirmation? :D

Really, I don't have the drive. With the stuff listed there, it isn't even worth it; it's obvious how absurd it is.

[John Snow]

& post a list of McCain's lies? :mad:

[Davian93]

You're a Muslim, you're a Muslim!

Heh, I also think it's very beautiful. Do they audition for that? Line up the Imams and say, "OK, let me hear your best call!"

oh no!!! I've been outted!!!:eek:

Perhaps its a reality show on Al Jazeera? Muslim Idol?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Um, Spammer, his voting record sounds like it should be easy to prove. Get crackin.

[Ivhon]

*yawn*

[4Alethinos]

Actually, John Snow, I am not too sure that is hard to do either. However, he usually just stabs you in the back or the face depending upon which way you happen to be facing. I do not think much of him either.

The only Dem I might have voted for was Zell Miller, I have no others with the possible exception of a Senator from one of the Carolinas that was on the Watergate committee. He was a scrupulously honest man. A genuine rarity in either party.

I have never voted for a democrat and I do not intend to start with John McCain.

As to the reference with respect to the Muslim call to prayer, I too agree that is a lovely sound. The fact that it is to a false god tends to detract from it, somewhat, for me.

[Terez]

I have never voted for a democrat and I do not intend to start with John McCain.
hehe

[JSUCamel]

The fact that it is to a false god tends to detract from it, somewhat, for me.

Isn't Allah supposed to be the God of Abraham as well?

[Bryan Blaire]

Definitely what Islam says, yeah. Different son as the progenitor though, IIRC.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Isn't Allah supposed to be the God of Abraham as well?
Yep. As 4A says, a false god. As all of them are, of course.

Atheism makes things so much simpler, you know.

[irerancincpkc]

I have never voted for a democrat and I do not intend to start with John McCain.
What a funny joke. I know you are trying to appeal to independents here, but we all know McCain is Bush's clone.

[Terez]

He's not trying to appeal to independents. He's totally serious - McCain is a wacky liberal in his book. ;)

[Davian93]

What a funny joke. I know you are trying to appeal to independents here, but we all know McCain is Bush's clone.

Spammer, you're too young to remembr the 2000 primaries and the fact that Bush and McCain absolutely despise each other...they like each other about as much as Bush Sr liked Reagan.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

McCain is actually more liberal than Bush.

[Davian93]

McCain is actually more liberal than Bush.

Much more liberal on certain things.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Not enough to make me like him 100%. Like I said, this election is about me giving up my house, or my reproductive safety.

[Davian93]

Not enough to make me like him 100%. Like I said, this election is about me giving up my house, or my reproductive safety.

I don't know about that 2nd one though. I distinctly remember a question from the 2000 election (one that gutted McCain before the SC primary) A reporter asked him how he would feel if it were HIS daughter that was getting an abortion and he slipped and said he would support her decision no matter what it was even if he didn't agree with it. Pundits at the time used it to show he was pro-choice...and they were probably right. I get the feeling that he's learned his lessons from the first time around and is keeping his feelings about the far right in check until after the election. Remember how he blasted the Religious right in 2000 and how far it got him...that was a mulligan for 2008...now he'll say what he has to to get in and then his true colors will come out. He's only gonna be a 1 term president at best so he'll have nothing to lose.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

He believes it's a states rights issue, Dav; that SCOTUS was legislating from the bench.


Frankly, I'm not gonna feel secure in my reproductive choices till there's a damned Constutional Amendment, and we all saw how long it took for the 18th to pass and the ERA (http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/) never did. And don't go whining about the how the 14th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion) covers it.

[Davian93]

He believes it's a states rights issue, Dav; that SCOTUS was legislating from the bench.


Frankly, I'm not gonna feel secure in my reproductive choices till there's a damned Constutional Amendment, and we all saw how long it took for the 18th to pass and the ERA (http://www.equalrightsamendment.org/) never did. And don't go whining about the how the 14th (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourteenth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitu tion) covers it.


Constitutionally he's correct Gil. It is a State's rights issue. The Federal gov't shouldn't have supreme power over every aspect of our lives and I agree with that. What's the point of having State's if they can't decide anything?

[irerancincpkc]

Spammer, you're too young to remembr the 2000 primaries and the fact that Bush and McCain absolutely despise each other...they like each other about as much as Bush Sr liked Reagan.
I've read back on it, but them not liking each other has nothing to do with their views.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Dav.... There are so many things wrong with that statement it's not even funny.

Let's say, for the sake of arguement, Roe V. Wade was overturned.

Bryan's (and my) worst nightmare happened and I get mugged and raped on the way to the bus stop. Texas, in its infinite wisdom, has decided that all life is precious, except a living woman's, and I have to try to gather the funds to get to say, Arizona, the nearest state to not have outlawed the morning after pill, or an abortion. Or, we get to rear my rapists' child, or at the very least, carry it to term and give it up for adoption which may actually be perpetuating whatever gene it is that makes men rapists (if any).

All this, because each state was allowed to decide that a woman was less than the womb she carried inside her.

Sorry, no. An amendment to the US Constitution is the only thing that will remove all doubts about my worth to my society as a person instead of a set of reproductive organs. Because, frankly, when you restrict a woman's right to decide how or if she'll carry a child, you narrow that woman, legally, down to her ovaries, fallopian tubes and uterus. Sorry, I am more than my reproductive organs.


And, no, don't even come at me with father's rights in this instance. That's an entirely different argument from my stand point. This is about the worth my society places on me as a person, and frankly, I think the majority of the US still sees women as nothing more than walking son factories.

[Terez]

We're like Trollocs!

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Girl Trollocs anyway. Wasn't it speculated we never saw a set of pink armor because they were stuck back in the Blight, barefoot and pregnant?

[Terez]

Nope, it was said by RJ that they're stuck in the Blight being pregnant..and the BWB...so not speculation. ;)

[Davian93]

Dav.... There are so many things wrong with that statement it's not even funny.



My point was this: Until there is an amendment, it should technically be a states rights issue...at least constitutionally. For the rest of your statement...I think that would be a worst case scenario, don't ya think? Even the most rabid pro-lifers feel that abortion should still be allowed for instances of incest and rape...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

On the one hand they're evil mutations of mankind... on the other...

Oh, hell, they're Trollocs, we aren't.



Even the most rabid pro-lifers feel that abortion should still be allowed for instances of incest and rape...

No, actually, they don't. Otherwise, why is it difficult to get a morning after pill with your rape kit? Why do minors need PARENTAL PERMISSION to get their father's child aborted? This is how things stand in Texas, Dav.

[Davian93]

~thinks about it~

~decides to open can of worms~

What is your opinion on the rights of the Father?

[Terez]

Must....uphold....teh patriarchy...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

In a relationship between two consenting adults... Let's take the movie, "Knocked Up," for example. [SPOILERS: IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE AND STILL WANT TO AND GIVE A SHIT ABOUT SPOILERS, STOP READING]

The two characters have a one night stand. Due to a miscommunication in the heat of drunken passion, there was no condom. Guess what happened?

The girl, though not really consulting the guy, did keep him informed. He was a one night stand, with no real expectation of even getting a second date. She called him and told him. But, the decision was hers. Of course, you know what she decided or there wouldn't be a movie.

Now, the problem with father's rights, is that it requires both people to be decent individuals and honor the other's rights. I'm sure if he wanted, he could have sued to get her to carry the kid if she'd opted for an abortion, I'm sure even in Cali, a judge would have granted it. Do I think the father should at least be told? Yes.

Ultimately, however, it should remain the woman's choice considering it's still the most dangerous undertaking most of us will ever experience out side of driving in rush hour.

[Yuri33]

A question for all the states rights people:

What makes the state a better arbiter of reproductive rights than the federal government? If you're going to argue that each state has unique values and constituencies and the law should reflect those variations, then why stop at the state level? After all, there many states with significant regions of both conservatism and liberalism (e.g., New York can be generally divided as urban vs. upstate).

Why not relegate the decision to the county or municipality? How about we let each neighborhood or condo association set the rules?

[Davian93]

What makes the state a better arbiter of reproductive rights than the federal government? If you're going to argue that each state has unique values and constituencies and the law should reflect those variations, then why stop at the state level?

It has nothing to do with reproductive rights and everything to do with how the Constitution was written. States should have rights because the 10th Amendment declares it. Unless you nullify the 10th Amendment, the States shall have, "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people".

[Gilshalos Sedai]

But Roe V. Wade was justified under the 14th Amendment.

[Davian93]

But Roe V. Wade was justified under the 14th Amendment.

Which gives it legal precedent and would likely make it difficult to repeal. The basis to do so would be under the 10th Amendment however...;)

[Crispin's Crispian]

Now, the problem with father's rights, is that it requires both people to be decent individuals and honor the other's rights.

You've hit the head on this one, Gil. My wife and I have had our most heated arguments about this very subject, and her position always comes back to exactly what you wrote.

I keep arguing that, in principle, the father should have just as much say over his future as the pregnant mother does over hers. She keeps saying that the implementation of such a system would cause far more problems than violating the principle.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Which is why we'd need another Amendment, like the ERA.



I keep arguing that, in principle, the father should have just as much say over his future as the pregnant mother does over hers. She keeps saying that the implementation of such a system would cause far more problems than violating the principle.

The problem with father's rights, is that the father's life is never in jeapordy when carrying a child.

[Davian93]

The problem with father's rights, is that the father's life is never in jeapordy when carrying a child.

I don't know about that...I've met some pretty crazy pregnant females...I'd say that their husbands were in some danger of bodily harm at points during the pregnancy.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I don't know about that...I've met some pretty crazy pregnant females...I'd say that their husbands were in some danger of bodily harm at points during the pregnancy.

Cute.

[Ivhon]

Here, here, Gil!

[Gilshalos Sedai]

To what part, me calling Dav cute or my femi-nazi speach?

[Ivhon]

The femi-nazi speech. We all know Dav is just cute as a button. I give no credit for stating the obvious.:p

[Crispin's Crispian]

Cute.

On that note, I was looking up mortality statistics for pregnancy and childbirth, and found this helpful website:

Death Statistics in the U.S. (http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/Age%20adjusted%20death%20rates%20for%20113%20selec ted%20causes%20by%20race%20and%20sex%202005.html)

If you just look at pregnancy and childbirth specifically, the risk of death is about one in 100,000. But if you include deaths from "Certain conditions originating in the perinatal period", it jumps up to 5.4 per 100K. That's still far below death by accidents, which is good.

Most interesting to me is the stat that men are more likely to die from "Certain conditions originating in the perinatal period" than women. This can only mean that the phrase refers to certain congenital birth defects or death of the child? That has it's own category, though... :confused:

In any case, my point was going to be that pregnancy isn't as dangerous as you make it out to be. That's not to belittle your point whatsoever--I fully recognize the burden women have to bear in the childrearing process. I just don't think the risk of death from childbirth should be the main argument against father's rights.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

It's not, and I know it's not that big of a risk. It's just a major consideration, or should be. And my point was that it's a biological function from which one can die. And only 50% of the population can do so.

[4Alethinos]

Allah was never the god of Abraham. He is a god created by Mohammed to justify his wars of conquest.

Abraham's God did save Ishamael and Hagar. He did promise to make of him a great nation. That has happened.

That had nothing whatsoever to do with the religious system created by Mohammed.

BTW, that senator from the Carolinas was Sam Ervin. A good man.

The only thing I find interesting about the discussion about abortion is the right of the child in the womb and the total lack of that for those who desire to kill their children. It demonstrates a total disregard for life, in general, IMO.

Women today have that choice to the tune of over 42 million with 37 % of them black slaughtered, thus far. I consider that latter number a holocaust against blacks in this country and it would have made Margaret Sanger proud. She was a noted white supremacist and racist.

However, in my view, those children are not lost. I believe that God has chosen to save them for an everlasting life in his presence.

Oh yes, Obama is considered to be a muslim by such organizations such as Hamas. That may be a part of why they support his candidacy for president. Being a liberal numbskull is another reason.

[JSUCamel]

Allah was never the god of Abraham. He is a god created by Mohammed to justify his wars of conquest.

Screenshot or it didn't happen.

[Terez]

Allah was never the god of Abraham. He is a god created by Mohammed to justify his wars of conquest.

Abraham's God did save Ishamael and Hagar. He did promise to make of him a great nation. That has happened.
By saying "that has happened", you're 'acknowledging' that the Arabs are indeed the descendants of Ishamael. So whether or not you our your god like it, the Arabs worship the same god as you do.

That had nothing whatsoever to do with the religious system created by Mohammed.
It had a great deal to do with it. Just because the creation of your religion (the first part of it anyway) is farther lost in the mists of time doesn't make it any less obviously contrived. Islam came out of Judaism and Judaism came out of Babylonian religion, primarily. And Christianity came out of a merge between Judaism and various religions of the Roman Empire. How can you not see the arrogance of assuming that you have the only truth, when you can clearly see it of Muslims?

Women today have that choice to the tune of over 42 million with 37 % of them black slaughtered, thus far. I consider that latter number a holocaust against blacks in this country and it would have made Margaret Sanger proud. She was a noted white supremacist and racist.
4A, do you support sex education in schools? Do you support federally funded programs to make birth control available to the poor, regardless of whether they have drug problems or refuse to work? Come on, 4A...we're talking about preventing murder here!

However, in my view, those children are not lost. I believe that God has chosen to save them for an everlasting life in his presence.
Then what is the problem?

Obama is considered to be a muslim by such organizations such as Hamas.
I'm sure Allah will be happy to hear it - Obama's quite the catch. :D

[Frenzy]

as if death is the only outcome. My mother's GD turned into full-blown Type 2 diabetes after my younger brother was born.

parents' rights need to be sorted out, no matter which side of the abortion debate you're on. right now they're very skewed, and entirely too dependent on the whim of the judge the case is brought before. Assuming it even gets that far.

[Frenzy]

the sixty-four bazillion dollar question: Why would it be a bad thing for the president to be Muslim?



(aside: i love the fact that a good chunk of the muslim world likes Obama when, by their religious laws, he should be killed on sight. irony.)

[irerancincpkc]

the sixty-four bazillion dollar question: Why would it be a bad thing for the president to be Muslim?

No it wouldn't.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

She said WHY?, Spammer. Frankly, I doubt it'll have any more of an impact than Kennedy's Catholocism.


4A... you and I can agree to disagree about this. I really couldn't care less. But frankly, keep your religion off my body. Life may begin at conception, but I was here FIRST, and yes, I'm a selfish bitch in this case. I'm not even going to touch your holocaust against African Americans comment.

I don't believe it should be a form of birth control, and one should take responsibilities for one's actions, but in the case of rape, incest, or the mother's life being in danger, or a pregnant 13 year old who's parents opted NOT to tell her the consequences of what happens when you act stupid, abortion should remain legal.

[irerancincpkc]

Thank you for catching my mistake. :D So, change that to it wouldn't be.

[Ivhon]

I do find it interesting that so often the one's who cry loudest about abortion are the same ones who rail against sex education and contraceptives. As if not talking about biological imperatives will make them go away.

It also amuses me that the sanctity of life crowd is typically the first to turn lynch-mob.

[Ozymandias]

I don't believe it should be a form of birth control, and one should take responsibilities for one's actions, but in the case of rape, incest, or the mother's life being in danger, or a pregnant 13 year old who's parents opted NOT to tell her the consequences of what happens when you act stupid, abortion should remain legal.

Right... but there are a lot of exceptions, rare ones, and all fo them cant be included in laws. The law is supposed to be at least a little adaptable and flexible. I just never got why people are so against it. The fetus can't live outside the womb for most of the pregnancy. Is it murder i the baby is born prematurely and dies? It should be, right? Mothers fault...

At what point does something that is mere chance (conception) become alive? The potential for life is not life. A 2 month old fetus has a fairly high chance of naturally aborting. Its just a chance at being a human. And if we're assuming possibilities as realities, when does it end? When does ovulation become a crime, or masturbation? Thats all destroying potential lives too.

[Ozymandias]

By saying "that has happened", you're 'acknowledging' that the Arabs are indeed the descendants of Ishamael. So whether or not you our your god like it, the Arabs worship the same god as you do.

Would that make them Trollocs? Or are those considered children of Aginor?

It had a great deal to do with it. Just because the creation of your religion (the first part of it anyway) is farther lost in the mists of time doesn't make it any less obviously contrived. Islam came out of Judaism and Judaism came out of Babylonian religion, primarily. And Christianity came out of a merge between Judaism and various religions of the Roman Empire. How can you not see the arrogance of assuming that you have the only truth, when you can clearly see it of Muslims?


This is false. Judaism definitely drew influence from a number of existing belief systems, but for the most part these were Canaanite religions and, to a certain, limited degree, perhaps even Zoroastrianism.

Just wanted to point that out... Biblical Judea and the Near East is kinda my thing...

[Terez]

haha, habit on the spelling there. :D

And it's not false - Abraham was supposedly from Ur, which was a city in Babylon, where people worshipped their ancestors. "God of my fathers", indeed...and much of the Old Testament was written down during the Babylonian exile, and the influence is obvious.

[Ozymandias]

haha, habit on the spelling there. :D

And it's not false - Abraham was supposedly from Ur, which was a city in Babylon, where people worshipped their ancestors. "God of my fathers", indeed...and much of the Old Testament was written down during the Babylonian exile, and the influence is obvious.

Whether or not Abraham was from Ur, the traditions he brought with him did not persist. We have several, if not more, references to Canaanite and Philistine religion invading (so to speak) Hebrew lands. Besideswhich, during the formative years of Judaism, the early 1st millenium BC, Assyria would have been the dominant power and while Assyrian customs are parroted off of Babylonian/Akkadian ones, there are crucial differences that would show up.

The several references we have to specific Philistine religious objects present in Judah, not to mention Israel, pretty clearly show Assyrian religious influence never spread. Nor did Babylonian. We know neither of those cultures had a concept of small-scale worship outside the home, while we hear repeated references to certain outdoor shrines through the Bible, particularly II Kings, II Chronicles, and Isaiah.

We have no evidence that the Bible was written down during the Babylonian exile. I was under the impression, though I seem to have forgotten precisely when, that the Bible was first recorded in the 2nd or 3rd century BC, long after the end of the Exile.

[Terez]

Later influences aside, the religion is rooted in Babylonian religion. It took on a different form through the legend of Abraham, but Babylon is its roots. And regardless of whether it was written down during the exile or after, the Babylonian influence is obvious, especially in the prophets - and I'm not just talking about their recount of the experience.

[Ozymandias]

Later influences aside, the religion is rooted in Babylonian religion. It took on a different form through the legend of Abraham, but Babylon is its roots. And regardless of whether it was written down during the exile or after, the Babylonian influence is obvious, especially in the prophets - and I'm not just talking about their recount of the experience.

Perhaps aside from a few basic premises, Judaism shares little with Babylonian culture and religion. The Tanakh is another story, but thats just misinterpreting parables with a religious bent as cornerstones of the religion.

The fact of the matter is, even assuming Abraham came from Ur, which of course we don't know, its likely that in the ensuing centuries his descendants forgot or changed the cultural aspects of Babylonia. In most respects, Judaism remains completely distinct from Babylonian religion in all ways.

There are certainly ancient influences (though not Solar worship monotheism, as is a popular theory), but I seriously doubt anything substantive came from Babylonia. Babylonian culture was rarely exported before the time of Assyria, and quite frankly, we have no reason to believe the larger portion of what the Bible tells us regarding specific historical (for them) fact, so basing any assumption of influence off some dimly remembered and probably fake event, and nothing else, is not particularly good scholarship.

We know the Israelites, and to a lesser degree Judeans, enjoyed close cross-cultural relationships with the Philistines and Phoenicians and their religion often incorporates or adopts Palestinian (for lack of better term) practices. We see no such relation when it comes to the United (or Divided) kingdoms and Mesopotamian culture.

[Sei'taer]

A question for all the states rights people:

What makes the state a better arbiter of reproductive rights than the federal government? If you're going to argue that each state has unique values and constituencies and the law should reflect those variations, then why stop at the state level? After all, there many states with significant regions of both conservatism and liberalism (e.g., New York can be generally divided as urban vs. upstate).

Why not relegate the decision to the county or municipality? How about we let each neighborhood or condo association set the rules?


In a sense, we do...Homeowners associations set rules and by-laws for their particular subdivision. I understand that this in no way means they are allowed to say you can or cannot have an abortion, but they do have certain laws and rights within those covenants to say that "no one under 55 yrs of age may live here" or "you are only allowed to have wood windows, no metal or vinyl clad will be allowed or these are all the color choices you have for your house."

In the city where I work, some of these covenants are very restrictive, but they are enforced by the H/A not the city (some even going so far as to regulate the colors you can paint inside your house). The city then has it's own set of rules and the covenants may be stronger or equal to the cities, but not weaker, and then it goes to the county and then the state. Most times it is easier to be equal than it is to be tougher.

Staes rights have been issues since the beginning of the US. The Civil War was fought over states rights, and I'm sure there will continue to be arguments...hell, the speed limit was changed from 55 mph to whatever the states wanted because of a states right fight between the federal government and the state of Nevada. Nevada wanted to change the limit, government said if they did it, they wouldn't get any more funding for road repair from the feds. Nevada said no problem, they would raise the tax on gambling by .5% and cover it all themselves. If I remember from my traffic classes it went on for a few years before the feds totally backed out and let the states set their own limits. Thats why they differ from state to state.

Anyway, I understand what you saying and I don't disagree, I wouldn't want a H/A telling me I could or couldn't have an abortion. Actually I wouldn't want them telling me anything...especially how to conduct my own business...Then again, I really don't like for the feds to do it either.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Later influences aside, the religion is rooted in Babylonian religion. It took on a different form through the legend of Abraham, but Babylon is its roots. And regardless of whether it was written down during the exile or after, the Babylonian influence is obvious, especially in the prophets - and I'm not just talking about their recount of the experience.
I'm not sure of that. Or at least, some of that.

I think that it is more likely that the monotheistic element which forms such a core part of Judaism came from Egypt. Consider:
A pharaoh (Akhenaten) went monotheistic, and forced his entire country to follow. After his death, the priests forced his son to return to polytheism. Shortly afterwards (exact timing can't be determined, as far as I know), a small group of monotheists left Egypt and after some wandering, settled in Canaan.

Now, according to Jewish mythology, those wanderers were Jews whose ancestors had gone to Egypt earlier, already being monotheists. But there is no evidence at all for that, apart from their mythology. So the alternative, that they're Egyptian heretics who fled after having lost to the orthodoxy, seems at least as reasonable.

Of course, after that there were many influences from other places. For instance, it seems as though the story of the Flood was picked up during the Babylonian exile. And since Egypt was going into a decline, at that time (and later) claiming a Sumerian origin, from the ancient city of Ur, was a good propaganda move.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Now, according to Jewish mythology, those wanderers were Jews whose ancestors had gone to Egypt earlier, already being monotheists. But there is no evidence at all for that, apart from their mythology. So the alternative, that they're Egyptian heretics who fled after having lost to the orthodoxy, seems at least as reasonable.

That's because religions, like kingdoms, liked to claim Things Are As They Have Always Been, lending legitmacy to their mythology.

[Ozymandias]

I'm not sure of that. Or at least, some of that.

I think that it is more likely that the monotheistic element which forms such a core part of Judaism came from Egypt. Consider:
A pharaoh (Akhenaten) went monotheistic, and forced his entire country to follow. After his death, the priests forced his son to return to polytheism. Shortly afterwards (exact timing can't be determined, as far as I know), a small group of monotheists left Egypt and after some wandering, settled in Canaan.

Now, according to Jewish mythology, those wanderers were Jews whose ancestors had gone to Egypt earlier, already being monotheists. But there is no evidence at all for that, apart from their mythology. So the alternative, that they're Egyptian heretics who fled after having lost to the orthodoxy, seems at least as reasonable.

Of course, after that there were many influences from other places. For instance, it seems as though the story of the Flood was picked up during the Babylonian exile. And since Egypt was going into a decline, at that time (and later) claiming a Sumerian origin, from the ancient city of Ur, was a good propaganda move.

This has also been pretty effectively disproven. Firstly, Akhenaton wasn't a practitioner of monotheism in the sense we know it; it was sun worship, with himself and his wife as a semi-divine completion of the trio (which DOES show a lot of Babylonian influence, in which gods come in threes). Worship of the Aten was in many ways an adaptation of the old religion. I don't believe he denied the existence of other gods, just the worship of them. Secondly, his reign was over long before the Israelites come into play. Ramesses II is the ruler associated with the exodus; he lived almost a full century after the conversion back to traditional worship from worship of the Aten. So the timing is off.

In addition, the Hebrews were still mainly polytheists when they came to Canaan. Biblical propaganda aside, its very clear that the Hebrews were polytheists who proclaimed the supremacy of their god, usually associated with Ba'al, and this gradually turned into the denial of other gods.

As for the Flood story... its strange, but I remember reading somewhere that tons of totally distinct cultures around the world, who have no chance of contacting each other, have independantly developed Flood stories.

I know way too much about the Ancient Near East.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

The Flood and Atlantis are supposed to explain what happened when the Mediterrean Sea was formed. After all, before the Rock at Gilbraltar split (Or whatever actually happened to that land bridge), it wasn't a sea.

[Davian93]

The Flood and Atlantis are supposed to explain what happened when the Mediterrean Sea was formed. After all, before the Rock at Gilbraltar split (Or whatever actually happened to that land bridge), it wasn't a sea.

Other theories have it as the Red Sea flooding as well...same type of issue with the narrow opening and its a good location for it geographically as well.

[Sarevok]

Same thing for the Black See... :)

[Terez]

Is that like the Anti-Pope?

[JSUCamel]

same thing for Hi-C.

[Davian93]

Is that like the Anti-Pope?

Ba tum dum...

[Ozymandias]

Black Sea is the 2nd choice of most historians. Soil samples have proven that there was a period of flooding in ancient, prehistorical times, but the most popular candidate for all these places is still the Persian Gulf.

Thats where the Garden of Eden was, ya know.

[Crispin's Crispian]

As for the Flood story... its strange, but I remember reading somewhere that tons of totally distinct cultures around the world, who have no chance of contacting each other, have independantly developed Flood stories.

There are a ton of flood stories in NW Native American mythology, usually ending with a pair of young tribespeople landing on a mountain.

I have to take these with a grain of salt, though, because so much of what we learned about native American mythology was learned after the arrival and influence of European Christians.

The Babylonian/Sumerian flood story is incredibly similar to that of Noah, such that I have no doubt one is a derivative of the other.

it was sun worship, with himself and his wife as a semi-divine completion of the trio (which DOES show a lot of Babylonian influence, in which gods come in threes).

This may also be derived from the proto-Indo-European myth system from which the Hindu Trimurti (among others) is also derived. The idea of three main gods is not unique to Babylon.

[Ozymandias]

This may also be derived from the proto-Indo-European myth system from which the Hindu Trimurti (among others) is also derived. The idea of three main gods is not unique to Babylon.


Babylon is reliably considered the first civilization. They were the first to build on a major scale, first to write... the logical conclusion is that they were also the first with an organized theology.

Many religions have a system in which the gods appear in threes. Most of them likely derive from Babylon. Mohenjo-Daro and Harappa (the two initial Indian cities which were probably the basis of Indo-European culture in the area), or Meluhha in my vocabulary, almost certainly imported ideas and theology as well as goods from the Fertile Crescent.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Babylon is reliably considered the first civilization. They were the first to build on a major scale, first to write... the logical conclusion is that they were also the first with an organized theology.

I sorta agree with you, but your reasoning is flawed.


However, the truly odd coincidence is the invention of the pyramid on SA, Asia, and Africa at roughly the same time period.

[Davian93]

I sorta agree with you, but your reasoning is flawed.


However, the truly odd coincidence is the invention of the pyramid on SA, Asia, and Africa at roughly the same time period.

So perhaps Babylon wasn't the first civilization...perhaps its simply the earliest one we are aware of.

There are all sorts of circumstantial evidence of even earlier civilizations but its been lost to us over the time...myths to legends, legends fade from memory...what of Merk and Mosk and their bolts of fire?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

And Len who flew to the moon in the belly of an eagle?

[GonzoTheGreat]

As for the Flood story... its strange, but I remember reading somewhere that tons of totally distinct cultures around the world, who have no chance of contacting each other, have independantly developed Flood stories.
That "with no chance of contacting each other" may be a bit inaccurate. It does seem clear there were no large scale contacts between Asia and Australia, for example. But it is entirely possible that about once a century, someone who had been driven away from his own tribe crossed the sea and then talked to other people. There would be very few remnants of that, apart perhaps from some stories he had told that then became incorporated in the mythology of his (or her) new tribe.

Then there is the rather difficult problem of figuring out which stories were original, and which had been adopted later, if antropologists only start documenting them centuries after the first contact with Europeans. But this has been mentioned by someone else, (the Dog of Dog), so I don't need to explain this problem.

[Ozymandias]

I sorta agree with you, but your reasoning is flawed.


However, the truly odd coincidence is the invention of the pyramid on SA, Asia, and Africa at roughly the same time period.

What? Firstly, Mesopotamian civilization is the earliest settled civilization we have archaelogical evidence for. Hence, it is the first.

And the pyramid wasn't invented at similar times in those tthree places. A stepped pyramid was invented in Mesopotamia and Egypt at roughly equivalent times, though only Egypt developed the true pyramid we know today.

As for South American, its possible there were no humans in the area at the time the pyramids were being built.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

I was talking about your "logical conclusion" regarding theology. That's not really better than an "educated guess."


As for South American, its possible there were no humans in the area at the time the pyramids were being built.

So who built them, little green men? Neanderthals? Cro Magnon? Monkeys?

[Davian93]

I was talking about your "logical conclusion" regarding theology. That's not really better than an "educated guess."




So who built them, little green men? Neanderthals? Cro Magnon? Monkeys?


The crystal skull guys from the other dimension...

[Crispin's Crispian]

What? Firstly, Mesopotamian civilization is the earliest settled civilization we have archaelogical evidence for. Hence, it is the first.

And the pyramid wasn't invented at similar times in those tthree places. A stepped pyramid was invented in Mesopotamia and Egypt at roughly equivalent times, though only Egypt developed the true pyramid we know today.

As for South American, its possible there were no humans in the area at the time the pyramids were being built.
Ozy, I was going to say the same thing, until I stumbled upon this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral (Caral). It's not nearly to the same scale or style, but it is from around the same time as the Egyptians were doing it.

The Maya and later Aztec cultures were building pyramids much later.

I know Mesopotamia is the first documented civilization, but there were systematic religions found in other cultures at or before Babylon was in power.

Ask Deiwos the Sky God where his namesake came from.

[Ozymandias]

Ozy, I was going to say the same thing, until I stumbled upon this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caral (Caral). It's not nearly to the same scale or style, but it is from around the same time as the Egyptians were doing it.

The Maya and later Aztec cultures were building pyramids much later.

I know Mesopotamia is the first documented civilization, but there were systematic religions found in other cultures at or before Babylon was in power.

Ask Deiwos the Sky God where his namesake came from.


First off, Gil, there weren't always people in South America, and just because people built them at some point, doesn't mean they're automatically dated back to the time when the Egyptians were building pyramids. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall the earliest civilization capable of building to the extent were talking about are the Norte Chico... rough contemporaries of Assyria... or about 2.5 thousand years after we see this stuff in the Middle East.

And secondly, Deiwos is a sanskrit word and a concept from that culture, Aryan culture, which postdates Sumerian culture.

And my educated guess, Gil, is a result of logic... hence it being the "logical" conclusion.

[Ozymandias]

Just looked at the Caral thing. It didn't say when the Caral pyramid was built. I'm guessing it was a good deal later than the earliest dates for Caral's settlement (about 2500 at the far end).

I say this because 3000 people is not a soceity capable of building monuments of that size. The oldest known Mesopotamian ziggurat is from about 2200BC, and thats over 1000 years after the rise of urban centers of comparable or larger size than that of Caral. So once again, not having the information at my fingertips, my educated guess is that the Caral Pyramids date from significantly later than its settlement would indicate.

[Crispin's Crispian]

First off, Gil, there weren't always people in South America, and just because people built them at some point, doesn't mean they're automatically dated back to the time when the Egyptians were building pyramids. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall the earliest civilization capable of building to the extent were talking about are the Norte Chico... rough contemporaries of Assyria... or about 2.5 thousand years after we see this stuff in the Middle East.

And secondly, Deiwos is a sanskrit word and a concept from that culture, Aryan culture, which postdates Sumerian culture.

And my educated guess, Gil, is a result of logic... hence it being the "logical" conclusion.
:confused:

The link I just gave you shows that parts of Norte Chico did indeed have pyramids that were probably built before 2,000 BC, which would make them roughly concurrent with the Egyptians.

Deiwos is actually a reconstructed idea of a sky god, based on commonalities found in Vedic, Celtic, and other religions. The whole idea is that there was a proto-religion that predated all of those that had among its gods something like Deiwos, as well as the triad we talked about earlier. The culture that developed this religion did not post-date Mesopotamia, but developed with it from around 4,000 BC. This religion itself is hypothetical, of course, and based mostly on linguistic evidence, despite archeological evidence of the culture.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Just looked at the Caral thing. It didn't say when the Caral pyramid was built. I'm guessing it was a good deal later than the earliest dates for Caral's settlement (about 2500 at the far end).

I say this because 3000 people is not a soceity capable of building monuments of that size. The oldest known Mesopotamian ziggurat is from about 2200BC, and thats over 1000 years after the rise of urban centers of comparable or larger size than that of Caral. So once again, not having the information at my fingertips, my educated guess is that the Caral Pyramids date from significantly later than its settlement would indicate.
Just saw this--we were cross-posting.

You're right that 3000 people seems too small. But it looks like the settlement itself ended around 2,000 B.C., which would mean the pyramid predated that.

I'm not sure why we're arguing this, though. I don't think any of us is suggesting that all these cultures got their pyramid ideas from some primordial source (or aliens).

[Gilshalos Sedai]

First off, Gil, there weren't always people in South America, and just because people built them at some point, doesn't mean they're automatically dated back to the time when the Egyptians were building pyramids. I'm no expert, but I seem to recall the earliest civilization capable of building to the extent were talking about are the Norte Chico... rough contemporaries of Assyria... or about 2.5 thousand years after we see this stuff in the Middle East.

I dunno. What I'm remembering is a Discovery Channel documentary. Not that I take those for 100% fact, but it's the most recent info I have. ;)


And my educated guess, Gil, is a result of logic... hence it being the "logical" conclusion.

A "logical conclusion" is still an educated guess, which IS STILL A GUESS. It may be slightly more accurate than a shot in the dark, but it's still a guess.

[Ozymandias]

Just saw this--we were cross-posting.

You're right that 3000 people seems too small. But it looks like the settlement itself ended around 2,000 B.C., which would mean the pyramid predated that.

I'm not sure why we're arguing this, though. I don't think any of us is suggesting that all these cultures got their pyramid ideas from some primordial source (or aliens).

I was arguing aliens....

But seriously, the pyramid is an incredibly logical shape for the first type of monumental construction. Or the step pyramid is, and thats what all these are.

And my guess is pyramids were being built in Egypt long before Djoser had his name immortalized. His is just the earliest monumental structure.... roughly 3 times the size f Caral, if memory serves (I think its about 55-60 meters).

[Ishara]

When you think about it, all three areas practiced derivatives of sun worship - hence structures pointed towards the sky, to bring worshippers closer to that which they worshipped is only logical.

The interesting thing to me is the presence of beings like dragons on totally opposite ends of the earth (i.e. East Asia and South America). Also if you loko at the glyphs in South Amercan temples and ruins, you find features that are amazingly similar to that of central african americans - very unlike the indo-asian features of south american indians. nevermined the glyphs that clearly depict a figure wearing what looks like a space helmet...

[Ozymandias]

When you think about it, all three areas practiced derivatives of sun worship - hence structures pointed towards the sky, to bring worshippers closer to that which they worshipped is only logical.

Or you could make the point that big was impressive, then as now, and the easiest way to make something big is to pile increasingly smaller levels on top of one another. Architecturally, there is no real limit to how big you can build, given a large enough base.

And the Mesopotamians did not practice sun worship. Marduk and Enlil, and even Anu, were sky gods, not solar gods (Anu wasn't, the first two were). And in any case, we never see a continually dominant cult in Mesopotamia as we do in Egypt, where Ra, Amun, or Amun-Ra (all aspects of the sun), reigned supreme throughout the history of the region. The fractured nature of Sumer and Akkad almost ensured that there would be no major deity. Certain of them were widely accounted senior gods, but never ascendant until Marduk and Babylon.

Even gods like Sin enjoy periods of major prominence, but are never the most important.

[Davian93]

Architecturally, there is no real limit to how big you can build, given a large enough base.

That's not neccessarily true...the weight of the structure becomes a major issue eventually even on the lower levels of said structure. There's only so much stress a foundation can take afterall...I.E. why Giza was built right on the bedrock for example.

[Ozymandias]

That's not neccessarily true...the weight of the structure becomes a major issue eventually even on the lower levels of said structure. There's only so much stress a foundation can take afterall...I.E. why Giza was built right on the bedrock for example.


Lol I stand corrected. My point was that its a fairly simple technique to build a big building, as supposed to a dome or really anything.

[Sei'taer]

I almost screwed up and posted basically what Davian said. I happened to notice it before I sent it off though...so now I am just increasing my insignificant post count.

[Gilshalos Sedai]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25393910


And THIS is what gets my femi-nazi granny panties in a bunch.

[Ozymandias]

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25393910


And THIS is what gets my femi-nazi granny panties in a bunch.

Why does this offend you? She's a rape victim... why should she be forced to raise a reminder of when she was abused for the rest of her life. Is it fair to the mother? Is it fair to the daughter, who may be less loved and well treated given her origins?

Shes 11, which poses significant health risks and bad health care. Should she risk her life to bear the child of her rapist? And its a very significant risk. Should she impair her own quality of life for the next 9 months, and endure the stigma of being an 11 year old mother, and the financial trouble that comes with it, merely because she had the ill fortune to be raped? As if its her fault?

That you have the gall to judge her, and force an action upon her body that she doesn't wish, is beyond ridiculous. No person has the right to tell another person how to treat their own body, thats the definition of slavery. That bunch of cells is totally reliant on her body for sustenance and growth, and therefore is no more than an extension of her. Same as an arm or a leg. Unless you subscribe to the religious view... which is ridiculous.

This wasn't some stupid decision on her part, and the fact that the Church is against it is yet more evidence that their ultimate goal isn't their flock's happiness, but their ability to control the largest number of people.

[Sarevok]

Uhm... Ozy... I think you probably misunderstood what Gil was saying. I presume she's angry at the people who oppose the abortion.

[GonzoTheGreat]

And, just possibly, at the 'father'.

[Ishara]

The misunderstanding is kind of funny, given the fact that you articulated exactly WHY that would piss Gil off. Heh.

[Ozymandias]

Oh... well apologies. I was in a bad mood and felt like ranting.

ALL RIGHT Gil. Clearly, she's a genius, because I'm a genius, and she agrees with me. it all works out... somehow.

[Davian93]

Oh... well apologies. I was in a bad mood and felt like ranting.

ALL RIGHT Gil. Clearly, she's a genius, because I'm a genius, and she agrees with me. it all works out... somehow.

It WAS a very good rant though Ozy...you should be proud of it.;)

[Ishara]

Very articulate. :p

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Yeah, Ozy, way to put what I said in context of my other 1,000 posts (and counting) on abortion.

However, I'm still a genius.

[Spidy]

Um Guys, the crazy thing here is that this decision is being made at 21 weeks as opposed to some so-called legal limit of 14 weeks and an eleven year old is being made to suffer on some sort of crusade.

The original question by Gil is right in its own context. We may argue all sorts of points here but there is a dignity issue and something should have been noticed real early to make this a conscious issue as opposed to a legal issue.