Evolution

[JSUCamel]

I'll never understand people who claim evolution is false and that scientists are lying about it, especially when those same people rely on scientists to invent the cars they drive in, build the bridges they drive over, and create alternative fuels to decrease our dependency on oil.

Evolution. It's real, whether you like it or not. (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/6/11/15631/9132/632/527201)

[Terez]

My English 102 preacher was going on about the "evolution is just a theory" crap tonight.

[GonzoTheGreat]

He's right, but so is gravity. Have you invited him to show the weakness of ideas that are "just a theory" by bravely stepping off a sky scraper?
If his faith is strong enough, angels should safely bear him down. If it isn't, some people may learn that theories can describe reality accurately. If he chickens out (by far the most likely outcome), you can ask him whether he thinks evolution theory is similarly convincing, and if not, what his objections to it are.

[Terez]

He's right, but so is gravity.
There was a dude in my class that immediately piped up about all that. ;) And of course the preacher went all "let's change the subject" on him. He likes to preach his beliefs in class but he doesn't like being argued with. Our textbooks uses both conservative and liberal arguments, but all of the reading assignments he gives us are the conservative examples. No surprise there.

[Davian93]

So here's a question: What caused the Big Bang? Theorize on that.

[Terez]

God did it, duh. :rolleyes:

[Gilshalos Sedai]

A cosmic fart. (What else would call a giant explosion of gas and matter?)

[Davian93]

God did it, duh. :rolleyes:

Big Bang=Something from nothing...I've taken alot of science courses including astronomy/astrophysics and it never had an answer that would explain matter from no matter, energy from no energy.

[Terez]

Probably because we don't know enough to comprehend it properly, just like how not so many hundred years ago, people couldn't comprehend that the earth was round and that our planet revolves around the sun, even though to us it seems plain as day. Always the explanation for things we don't know the answer to has been "god did it" or some supernatural variation of the same, and as time goes on, we keep miraculously finding natural explanations for things. :rolleyes: Remember spontaneous generation?

[JSUCamel]

Big Bang=Something from nothing...I've taken alot of science courses including astronomy/astrophysics and it never had an answer that would explain matter from no matter, energy from no energy.

I don't really know the answer to that question. However, I do know that all scientific evidence points to the Big Bang happening. Why it happened and how it happened aren't really known, mostly because we don't have the technology or scientific advancement to figure out the cause and the mechanisms for something from nothing.

I think the laws of physics were supposedly different during the Big Bang (like they're supposed to be different inside a singularity of a black hole).

However, just because Science doesn't have an explanation doesn't mean that Religion's answer is right. An example is geo/heliocentric thinking. The Church used to say that the Earth was the center of the universe, and that everything revolved around us, and Science didn't prove otherwise for a long time. But just because Science hadn't proved it yet didn't make the Church right.

So, I remain confident that the Big Bang probably happened, even if scientists don't know how/why it happened, since most studies in the past few decades seem to support that evidence.

[Davian93]

Funny Camel...I tend to think the Big Bang happened too...I also tend to believe that Someone was behind it...life from no life, matter from no matter, energy from no energy...Physics and Newton have no explanation that fits it.

[Terez]

Jinx!

[Terez]

Funny Camel...I tend to think the Big Bang happened too...I also tend to believe that Someone was behind it...life from no life, matter from no matter, energy from no energy...Physics and Newton have no explanation that fits it.
The Bible doesn't fit it either. So why go with a concept that came out of a faulty belief system?

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Yet.

[Sei'taer]

~thinks about it~

~almost starts a post on the subject~

~decides he really doesn't care~

~Heads off to try to come up with more funny names for citizens of others countries~

~Chinarian :D ~

[Terez]

~decides he really doesn't care~
That has been obvious to some of us all along. ;)

[Ozymandias]

Funny Camel...I tend to think the Big Bang happened too...I also tend to believe that Someone was behind it...life from no life, matter from no matter, energy from no energy...Physics and Newton have no explanation that fits it.


Davian, even here, your merely working within the belief system of Creationism, just disguising it more cleverly.

We've been so ingrained to believe that everything started with one omniscient being that we've become totally indoctrinated that even if we don't believe in said Being, we still think everything had an initial moment and source.

Its very possible everything just existed. And always has. Even thinking about it makes my head spin, because the idea that everything was just here is so against everything we're ever taught.

[Terez]

Except for that god was always there. Doesn't matter that it makes no more sense than the universe always being there...it's god. God is beyond our comprehension. :rolleyes: Or rather, what is beyond our comprehension is god...

[Gilshalos Sedai]

Actually, the Universe is God.


And It farted.

[JSUCamel]

Callandor and I have been discussing the same thing on his blog. I'll C&P the discussion here.

Camel said...

You said: "Those are the "religious, but unaffiliated with a church" (or those trying to play word games like "Oh, I believe in god but not religion" as if dividing the two makes sense)."

I beg to differ. Believing in a god is faith; religion is the methodology by which that faith is expressed. Many people don't particularly believe in any of the religions in the world but do have a faith that there is a higher power.

So yes, dividing the two makes some sense. Whether either one standing alone makes sense is another question entirely.

Callandor said...

"Believing in a god is faith; religion is the methodology by which that faith is expressed."

And how are you to know which god to believe in, if you do not already have a religion in mind? Which type of god? Monotheistic, polytheistic.

"Many people don't particularly believe in any of the religions in the world but do have a faith that there is a higher power."

You're hiding behind vague language here. "Higher power" -- what? The laws of nature? That there's things "larger than us?" Or that there's an omnipotent, omniscient being that is controlling things?

Trying to say "God and religion are two separate things" is as silly as saying "Character and narrative are completely separate things" for a movie. They relate to and inform on the other. The character drives the narrative, and the narrative in turn defines the character.

You say those who are without religions present in the world can have faith in a higher power. But that's incomplete. What about this higher power? How do they relate to it? What does it want from this person? How do they know that it is there, or even think that it's there?

The answers to those questions are invariably the ones that you'd find in sources you'd try to define as "religion." Take Christianity to fill in the gap:

1. God is omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent, etc.
2. God is testing you to see if you are worthy to go on to heaven. God is in command, and you're a supplicant of god.
3. God wants you to do good deeds, such as look out for the poor, be dedicated to your loved ones, etc.
4. The various miracles of Jesus establish the divinity of him, because he's god.

You'd find these answers in the story of the god in question, the holy book, the bible. The sects of Christianity are based on it. Undoubtedly, this is the divide between "religion" and "god" to you.

Do you see how incomplete that is? You know about this being because of the religion -- yet you're trying to say that the god and religion are separate. They're inextricably linked.

If you continue you're example of the hypothetical person, they'd "have faith" in some higher power that they'd be ascribe the features to. In other words, they'd be writing their own holy story -- they'd be writing their religion.

Now, one of course can divide them for same of delineating what one is talking about (IE: anthropologists talking about the specific religious rituals of some culture versus discussing the properties of the deities).

But what I am talking about is much more in line (I think) with what you got around to saying at the end: dividing the two, and saying "This one is all I believe in." What I am talking about is people who cite that they believe in god, but not religion, as if one can just divide the two and not have the other at all. It's invariably ways to say "I don't accept this particular practice" (such as transubstantiation for Protestants) or saying "Mine is the TRUE religion" but copping out of saying that for whatever

Camel said...

You make valid points. I would argue, however, that believing in God as a higher power (creator/deity/whatever) doesn't necessarily mean you follow a particular religion.

The latter is dependent on the former, but the former is most definitely not dependent on the latter.

Belief in God does not automatically equal following a religion. However, following a religion implies belief in a god of some kind.

You said: "You say those who are without religions present in the world can have faith in a higher power. But that's incomplete. What about this higher power? How do they relate to it? What does it want from this person? How do they know that it is there, or even think that it's there?"

For some people, it's enough to believe that there is a higher power and don't care how to relate to it or anything. I don't know if I understand those people, but I've had people express that stance to me.

As for me, I know what I believe, and that's not really something I care to share with you.

However, I did have an interesting discussion today with some people regarding the nature of godhood.

What makes a god? Is it immortality? Omnipotence? Omniscience? Having worshipers? One of the above? All of the above? Does this god-figure have to have a physical manifestation, or can it just be an idea? If enough people worship an idea, does that idea become a god?

On the flip side, if Jesus were truly a mortal who performed good deeds and said a lot of wise things, would that make Christianity meaningless? If enough people worshiped Britney Spears, does that elevate her to godhood, or is something else required?

Callandor said...

"For some people, it's enough to believe that there is a higher power and don't care how to relate to it or anything. I don't know if I understand those people, but I've had people express that stance to me."

You're again not answering the question. How do they know such a power exists? What's the basis, similar to the "miracles" of Jesus' divinity?

"What makes a god?"

Whatever people want god to be, or convince themselves that god is. Problem of empty meaningless concepts, huh? ;)

"If enough people worship an idea, does that idea become a god?"

Well, I wouldn't say worshiping in general is necessary for anything. I don't really know how to express the difference, but I don't think many people even worship ideas. Do people worship "democracy?" Or do they just believe in it? Or worshiping "beauty" -- what does that even mean? Gods to most people have a far more concrete property to them than simply the abstract category of most ideas.

"On the flip side, if Jesus were truly a mortal who performed good deeds and said a lot of wise things, would that make Christianity meaningless?"

A large swath of it, the supernatural elements in particular, yes. Utterly and completely meaningless, like the meaninglessness of the pastafarian eschatology. The good parts are good on their own, without their Christian context (IE: they'd be good ideas coming from Hindu sources or whatever).

"If enough people worshiped Britney Spears, does that elevate her to godhood, or is something else required?"

Have you heard of the Cult of Elvis? He had paranormal powers ascribed to him in his lifetime, they hold vigils every year at his house, they make pilgrimages to his house, the truly dedicated fans of his time were called the "gate people" because they stood outside his mansion gate, every day, while he was alive for just the chance of seeing him, there are people that dedicate their lives to imitating him, and parts of his body are held in such high regard to be almost holy relics (in this case, locks of his hair). And, of course, he never did really die....

Camel said...

wow, cult of elvis... Anagrammed, that's Cult of Evils. lol

You're right, the "how do you know if God exists?" question wasn't answered, but mainly because I don't have the answer.

Let me put it this way. You do film stuff, I do acting stuff... and I also dabble in Photoshop, 3D modeling, writing, etc. These things are attempts to create something out of ideas, to bring life to something that doesn't exist, to make something real.

I watch a CGI movie like The Incredibles, and I just KNOW how much time was spent making those leaves move in a realistic manner, making those clouds move in a realistic manner... and it's a cartoon for crying out loud.

I walk around and I look outside, and I see real leaves. I see real clouds. I see PEOPLE walking around, talking, communicating. I see life. And it just seems miraculous to me.

Have you ever NOT cleaned up your room for a very long time? It doesn't just clean itself up. Someone has to do it. Otherwise it just gets filled with more and more crap until nothing can get done.

So, I guess the answer to your question is my lack of imagination. I can't imagine all of existence being the result of a gigantic cosmic fart, of being an accident. It's just too complex, to well-done to be an accident.

I fully acknowledge that I could be wrong, and I fully acknowledge that evolution is real and it's happening even today. The origin of the universe, though... we don't really have an explanation for pre-Big Bang stuff.. and I can't imagine any answer to that that doesn't involve a higher power pushing the big green "Start Creation" button.

[Sei'taer]

That has been obvious to some of us all along. ;)


Don't care about that either.

[Terez]

ha, lack of imagination. Good way of putting it. :D

And Callie fails the your/you're test...

[GonzoTheGreat]

Big Bang=Something from nothing...I've taken alot of science courses including astronomy/astrophysics and it never had an answer that would explain matter from no matter, energy from no energy.
That is probably because at this moment, science simply does not have an answer that is good enough. There are some guesses, and some of those seem even somewhat promising, but that's all.

You can of course go with "God did it". But that answer has a huge flaw: it has no more support than the answer "the Easter Bunny did it".
For me, the fact that a supposed perpetrator has as good (or bad, depending how you look at it) alibi as a chocolate rabbit, is a good reason not to believe in the guilt of that perp. So I would say that unless more evidence shows up, God is innocent of creating the universe.

[JSUCamel]

You can of course go with "God did it". But that answer has a huge flaw: it has no more support than the answer "the Easter Bunny did it".

When I was a freshman in college, I took my speech class requirement. There was this guy in there, Anthony, who was a football player for JSU. Each speech had to do with football, it was crazy.

In the first speech we had to read from a book. Anthony chose Bear Bryant's biography. In the second speech we had to talk about a quality about ourselves. You may remember a previous post where I talked about this (I chose my own stagefright). Anthony chose his leadership abilities, and described his high school football career. The third speech was teaching the class how to do something. I taught the class how to juggle. Anthony taught us how to throw a football in a spiral.

The final speech was a debate. My partner and I were stuck with "animal testing". Anthony and his partner had "Should we tell our children the Easter Bunny is real?"

I thought to myself, "Finally, there's no way he can tie that to football."

Anthony gets up in front of the class and starts talking.

"Uh, my topic is Should We Tell Our Children the Easter Bunny is Real? I think we SHOULD tell our children that, because the Easter Bunny is a hero to many children in the world today. I think all children need a hero to believe in and a role model to follow. For example, my role model is Bo Jackson, because he played football AND baseball.."

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

[Gilshalos Sedai]

So, Bo Jackson created the Universe?

[Davian93]

So, Bo Jackson created the Universe?

Have you ever played Tecmo bowl with him? If so, you would have a decent argument in favor of that theory.

[Davian93]

Bo Jackson Super Tecmo Bowl (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAAgfY_NHzw)

Enjoy. :)

[Gilshalos Sedai]

So, Bo Jackson can kick Chuck Norris' ass?

[Davian93]

So, Bo Jackson can kick Chuck Norris' ass?

Probably Chuck Norris' but likely not Brian Boitano's.

[JSUCamel]

What would Brian Boitano do?

[Crispin's Crispian]

"Uh, my topic is Should We Tell Our Children the Easter Bunny is Real? I think we SHOULD tell our children that, because the Easter Bunny is a hero to many children in the world today. I think all children need a hero to believe in and a role model to follow. For example, my role model is Bo Jackson, because he played football AND baseball.."

*bangs head on desk repeatedly*

Why, just the other day my son said to me, he said, "Dad, when I grow up, I want to hop around with colored eggs in a basket and sneak into people's houses and hide the eggs and lots of yummy candy."

I'm so proud. I can't think of a better hero and role model.