Who dies?

[natural1dave]

first, i would like to say thank you to all of you as i have been lurking for several years now off and on and i enjoy all of your theories/posts.

this is my first post and i tried using the search function and didn't find anything (though i can't imagine it hasn't been discussed), but who do you think dies in the last book?

most people will say rand, but i think in order to keep WoT 'real', i think more people have to die. if they don't, i think it will be too 'wishy washy' (how do so many 'key' people survive so many battles etc especially "the Last Battle"). so i guess who do you think will die? or who do you want to see die? (major character wise)

i feel that rand/perrin/mat will all live (taveren luck). elayne, min, aviendha all survive (nicola's foretelling). i don't see RJ killing faile or tuon for some reason, maybe because the big 3 all earned a happy, quiet life after what they sacrificed. i don't see loial going either. in my mind nynaeve and lan are prime prospects to go. cadsuane probably is gone. thom as well.

though of course i could be wrong...after all, we've had 11 books and I'm not sure anyone 'good' has died really, Moiraine maybe, but there are arguments she is still alive...

who else do you think? or don't think? or do you all think they will live and that's the way it should be?!

p.s. i didn't really talk about the evil characters because i'm sure a bunch of them will be off'd.

[Brita]

Welcome Dave!

Well, I would say it is 99.999% sure Moiraine is not dead :P But for a while we thought maybe she was.

I would say any of the more prominent Aiel characters (except Avienda maybe) could be offed in the last book.

[irerancincpkc]

Hey Dave! :D

One thing is for sure - Rand will not die. :D

Moiraine is for sure alive. Who will die? I'm afraid Perrin and Thom might...

[natural1dave]

Welcome Dave!

Well, I would say it is 99.999% sure Moiraine is not dead :P But for a while we thought maybe she was.

I would say any of the more prominent Aiel characters (except Avienda maybe) could be offed in the last book.

sorry, it's been a while since i've read some of the books. i'm doing a re-read for the final book and i just finished LoC (my favorite of all of them).

anyway, so given that Moiraine is alive and virtually none of our 'heroes' have died thus far, would you be ok with the books if say only Rhuarc and Amys were offed? would that seem right to you? it wouldn't to me, and i have a gut feeling that RJ will be offing one of our faves...

[Brita]

I think they are perfect candidates.

I picture characters that are set up to take power (like Egwene, Galad, Elayne, Lan, Tuon) as unlikely characters to die- as I have a feeling they will be major players in the new world.

But the Aiel characters like Amys and Rhuarc, although well liked, are expendable. It will be sad, but I agree with you that some likable heros need to die to give the story validity beyond a fairy tale.

[irerancincpkc]

I don't think it will be realistic unless a good number of the good guys die. Death happens. If I could compare it to the final Harry Potter book, I think the Death Ratio in AMOL will be about that; maybe a bit higher.

Rhuarc is not expendable Brita! How could you say such a thing! :D No, I like him, and have missed him in the past few books.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Mat.

SatisFACTION (http://theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=52)

[irerancincpkc]

I had thought that, but didn't someone have a dream or something similar about him living after Tarmon Gai'don?

[natural1dave]

Mat.

SatisFACTION (http://theoryland.com/factions.php?func=4&rec=52)

mr. lucky himself dying? wouldn't that go against everything his character is? he's got 9 lives it seems!

this sorta makes sense, though, if you believe that war will still ravage the lands after the Last Battle and that the Seanchan will most likely be on one end, and everyone on the other. i say that because how would a tuon/mat marriage work if she rules the seanchan and he is the best general randland has to offer?

[Crispin's Crispian]

To Spammer's point, yes, I think something in KoD hinted that Mat would survive. But generally discard such evidence in that it is contrary to my beliefs.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I think a bigger hint to Mat's survival is that RJ was planning on doing a sequel, ten years in the future, starring Mat and Tuon.

[Ishara]

Heh. That probably wasn't as funny as I'm making it out to be...

Thom, Lan, Nynaeve are all candidates for sure. You know, the big, brave death to benefit the masses. I'd actually love to see Mat go the same way.

I'm a big supporter of the concept that power comes at a price, and that sometimes the price is the life of one of the good guys. GGK is the master of balancing the scales like that.

Rand will die. He might not stay that way, which I actually don't like, but hey - I didn't write the ending did I?

[The Seeker]

I think Rand is gonna die as well RJ isnt a fan of the ake believe good guys always win Im sure Rand will die and a few of the other major characters. I think Matt will leave due to RJ saying he was gonna do the story of Tuon and Matt. My is a good possibility and kind of see Egwene dying.

[Terez]

Cadsuane. She's old anyway.

[irerancincpkc]

Rand will survive, and I see Verin giving her life up for Rand in some way...

[The Seeker]

I totally didnt even think of Cadsuane but yeah i agree she is more than likely gonna die.

[Terez]

Cadsuane's gonna go out in a blaze of glory similar to Moiraine. Probably something in Arad Doman...

[irerancincpkc]

Cadsuane's gonna go out in a blaze of glory similar to Moiraine. Probably something in Arad Doman...
But Moiraine didn't go out... :D

[The Seeker]

Shell definetly go out in a blaze its Cadsuane after all but as far as Rand living its not gonna happen he may defeat the DO but he'll die shortly after.

[irerancincpkc]

You are right, Rand will die, but then he will be resurrected.

[Brita]

I totally didnt even think of Cadsuane but yeah i agree she is more than likely gonna die.

Dave mentioned it in his original post too (just want to give the new fella his due mention). She is a high possibility to be sure.

Nynaeve and Lan? I dunno- he is the last Malkier King- it looks like the kingdom will be resurrected, and they'll need a little baby Lan (or Lanette) to carry on the Malkier King bloodline. So maybe Lan, but not Nynaeve.

[Terez]

The only theory that explains how Rand could be both dead and alive at the same time is the one where he dies yet lives on in Tel'aran'rhiod (which is not exactly unaccessible to those living - Rand just has to be willing to break some precepts).

[Terez]

Nynaeve and Lan? I dunno- he is the last Malkier King- it looks like the kingdom will be resurrected, and they'll need a little baby Lan (or Lanette) to carry on the Malkier King bloodline. So maybe Lan, but not Nynaeve.

Definitely not Lan. From the Wotmania Quote Collection (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58):

Q: Do Min's viewings always predict the future, or do some tell about the past, mainly the 7 towers around Lan in The Eye of the World?

RJ: Um, her viewings are always concerning the future.

[Brita]

Exactly. Even better. Anyone set up in a position to gain future power is not going to die, imo.

[Terez]

Except for Rand. Well, he's not really so much set up for future power anyway. In fact, people to take his place in everything have been set up, either by Rand or RJ. Rand is naming his stewards, and RJ has brought back Mattin Stepanaeos, and Logain is shaping up to lead the Black Tower.

[Brita]

Except for Rand. Well, he's not really so much set up for future power anyway. In fact, people to take his place in everything have been set up, either by Rand or RJ. Rand is naming his stewards, and RJ has brought back Mattin Stepanaeos, and Logain is shaping up to lead the Black Tower.

Yes. Agree. Certainly. He is, he did and he is.

Completely agree.

[Terez]

Oh, and Thom won't die either - Min's viewing, remember?

[The Seeker]

Yeah Thom wont but there will definetly be a fair share of people its the last battle afterall and if Ran does die and lives on in The world of dreams i dont think they will clarify it i think if Rand dies hes dead and thats the end of that. Im sure Moraine wont die either cause according to Min she has A LOT of stuff yet to do according to her viewings.

[Terez]

Well, all we know of for sure is that she has something important to do for Rand if he's to have a hope of winning, and that she's going to marry Thom, but Moiraine did say in her letter to Thom that it may be she'll live to her appointed years.

I think that Rand will die before the Last Battle is fully won, and that he'll be called by the Horn. :D

[Weird Harold]

Oh, and Thom won't die either - Min's viewing, remember?
MIn's viewing do give a clue as to two people who will die and two who won't:

Perrin And Faile will survive, but Tenobia and Bashere won't -- Just marrying the "spare-heir" doesn't fulfill the "broken crown in his future," IMHO, so Faile will inherit the Crown and Perrin will become her first sword(?)

[4Alethinos]

If Moiraine got her vision of who her future husband to be from Min, then she cannot die until after she marries.

Lan and Nynaeve will not die in the Last Battle as an heir to the Malkier will not be born until the kingdom of Malkier is rebuilt. That will be way after the LB.

I completely disagree that the Horn will call Rand, at all. What to do about Min's vision of the two becoming one with one dying? That vision must be interpreted, Terez.

I believe that Callandor's argument about what the Aelfinn told Rand has no relationship whatsoever to a future reincarnation as it makes no sense in the context. Your version has exactly the same problem. Rand wanted to survive for his present memory set and experiences and for the women he loves. IMO, no other opinion has merit.

To Live you Must Die.

Mat wil survive and Tuon with him. Perrin will survive as he is promised a kingdom that is clearly post LB. Faile may or may not die. I will not miss her.

Elayne will survive as will Aviendha since they must have babies.

Min is somewhat more questionable as she cannot see her own future in the Pattern.

Logain will survive to achieve great glory. Morgase is likely to survive, but we will see. Tallanvor will die with her if she does.

"Mirror, Mirror on the wall, who will survive the most of all." ;)

[Terez]

MIn's viewing do give a clue as to two people who will die and two who won't:

Perrin And Faile will survive, but Tenobia and Bashere won't -- Just marrying the "spare-heir" doesn't fulfill the "broken crown in his future," IMHO, so Faile will inherit the Crown and Perrin will become her first sword(?)
Bashere might abdicate. Tenobia never would, but he might well. But then there's the "something dark". Curious, that.

@4A, Min doesn't say they'll become one. She says that they touch,ed and that they "seemed to merge", and that one died, and the other did not. So Rand dies, Moridin lives, Rand is dead yet alive, Last Battle seems to be done seeing as how Rand's dead and he's their only hope, but world not done with battle, Mat shows up, blows the Horn, Mat kills Moridin, and Rand seals the prison. Easy as pie. :D

[Ieyasu]

rand wont die... but he will disappear from public eye

perrin is toast imo
cadsune is a goner
lan might die (if nyn is preg before end of book, im pretty certian lan will not make it)
bashier will not make it

[Ieyasu]

Bashere might abdicate. Tenobia never would, but he might well. But then there's the "something dark". Curious, that.

@4A, Min doesn't say they'll become one. She says that they touch,ed and that they "seemed to merge", and that one died, and the other did not. So Rand dies, Moridin lives, Rand is dead yet alive, Last Battle seems to be done seeing as how Rand's dead and he's their only hope, but world not done with battle, Mat shows up, blows the Horn, Mat kills Moridin, and Rand seals the prison. Easy as pie. :D

most retarded ending ever

doubt the horn even leaves the tower

[The Seeker]

That is the ending damn it and how do you know that Verins not on her way to get the horn right now for the last battle.

[Ieyasu]

That is the ending damn it and how do you know that Verins not on her way to get the horn right now for the last battle.


because shes busy with the borderlanders

[Frenzy]

The easiest of the main cadre of characters to die is Min. She serves no political nor plot-driven purpose at the end of the story, so she's officially the red shirt.

Perrin's head is severely screwed up right now. And given a certain conversation i'm sure everyone's well aware of could easily be interpreted as foreshadowing, Faile may die. Perrin already has the broken crown (Faile), and he has already played the general, so all stated plot foreshadowing could be done with.

that's it for the top tier characters. for now. i can see plausible storylines that could off a lot of second-tier characters, but i'm not sure that's what you're looking for, Dave.

[Dragon]

I think it's pretty likely that Galad dies.

In TSR, ch.11, Egwene had this ominous Dream about "Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud".

This could indicate that Galad will die in fulfilling his duties as a Whitecloak. Maybe there even will be a heroic last stand of the Children of the Light during TG to save others, e.g. Egwene (Min said in TGH, ch.42, that something still links Egwene to Galad, though IIRC we never saw what).

Would at least fit with Galad's character as the chivalrous Knight.

[GonzoTheGreat]

No, Galad will elope with Berelain.

[Terez]

I think it's pretty likely that Galad dies.

In TSR, ch.11, Egwene had this ominous Dream about "Galad wrapping himself in white as though putting on his own shroud".
Nice idea, but it already makes sense because Galad joined the Whitecloaks partially because of his sense of duty to Elayne and Egwene, and because of what the White Tower did with them, so his joining was an act of putting his life on the line for that ideal regardless of whether he actually dies for it. I think the Berelain viewing nixes Galad dying.

[Dragon]

I know it's the most popular opinion that Galad is Berelain's man in white, mainly because both are such beautiful, but I believe this is wrong.

Usually Min recognizes persons she is familiar with in her Viewings and she knows Galad. I don't see a reason why she wouldn't tell that the man is Galad.

In my view, Berelain will rather marry King Beslan - who might wear the mourning colour white after his mother was killed. They might meet after Rand makes his deal with Tuon. Since Berelain is basically also Seanchan Blood, it would make sense that those two rule Altara. Finally, Beslan also learned that older women can have younger men from his mother and Berelain was also interested in the quite young ta'veren.

Of course even if Galad is Berelain's man in white, he could still die at TG.

But we will see..

[Terez]

Is Berelain even older than Beslan? I know they're close in age, and Berelain usually acts like a woman in her 30's, but I seem to remember her being around 19 or so when she was introduced to the story, and Beslan is around Mat's age.

Anyway, Berelain+Beslan is just lame. :p Really, there's nothing about him that would make Berelain fall head over heels. At all. She's a very picky woman, you know. ;)

[Dragon]

Well, Beslan is the King of a big country. That's not that bad.. ;)

He is also good looking, certainly matured due to his mother's death, but would probably need an experienced noble woman at his side.

IMO, Galad and Berelain would be more lame & too obvious, because every fan came up with this idea. It better fits Galad's personality to stay solo and sacrifice his life in the end.

[Terez]

Too obvious? What's wrong with it being obvious?

Another thing that makes it more likely Berelain will hook up with Galad is that Berelain is heading away from Beslan (not that she was ever really near him), she's heading toward Galad (who is not far away at all), and we have a good reason or two for Galad's party to meet up with Perrin's (Balwer, Morgase) and no reason for her to go to Ebou Dar.

[Dragon]

Ok, then I say it's obvious that Berelain and Beslan will be a couple, since it sounds much nicer than Berelain and Galad! ;)

Seriously, in a series where some people can Travel, the distance between two characters is rather irrelevant. Remember how quickly Rand came in contact with Logain in the end.

After he finally freed Faile & ended Masema's regime, Perrin will certainly urge to meet Rand again. This might also end the swirling ta'veren colors, which seem, IMO, to be a method by the Wheel to bring all three ta'veren together.

If the Asha'man bring Perrin to Rand soon, Berelain might very well accompany him, thus avoiding any contact with Galad.

As said, if Rand then finally has his anticipated talks with Tuon, it makes sense that he & some of his friends might eventually also visit Ebou Dar, where Berelain might fall in love with Beslan.

That's of course just my speculation, but I think it has at least as much merit as the idea that Berelain and Galad will have a romance (thus accepting that Min didn't recognize Galad in her Viewing for some strange reason).

[irerancincpkc]

Except for Rand. Well, he's not really so much set up for future power anyway. In fact, people to take his place in everything have been set up, either by Rand or RJ. Rand is naming his stewards, and RJ has brought back Mattin Stepanaeos, and Logain is shaping up to lead the Black Tower.
Yes, it is shaping up for Rand to retire from public life after Tarmon Gai'don.

[irerancincpkc]

The easiest of the main cadre of characters to die is Min. She serves no political nor plot-driven purpose at the end of the story, so she's officially the red shirt.

I would cry. :( I'm not even going to think about that happening...

The more I think about it, the more worried I am about Perrin. He's great, but I think he'll be offed...

[Nazbaque]

There are too many hints about Perrin fixing the world after TG finding the song etc. he will survive.

Rand will "die" and then live "Twice will dawn the day his blood is spilt" as in there are two such days. scenario: Rand dies, Aviendha gets pissed and balefires the culprit along with a whole bunch of Fades Trollocs etc. oh and Demandred as well (even if he isn't the killer).

Mat might die though the peace with Seanchan after TG seems to demand his survival.

Graendal will survive.

Aviendha is yet o give birth to Rands children (so Rand will survive unless there is a big sex scene before TG)

Elayne might give birth before TG though I doubt it.

Sulin will survive. Nandera won't.

Nynaeve and Lan will survive.

Moraine and Thom will survive.

Noal will die.

Birgitte will die.

Amys is the only non-Shaido Wise One who survives.

All major Asha'man characters die except Logain.

Bryne and Siuan will survive.

Elder Haman will die.

Loial will survive (he is the one who wrote all this)

Slayer will survive.

Rhuarc and Bael are the only clan chiefs who survive.

Gaul will live. Chiad will die. Bain will live and marry Gaul.

Now who am I forgetting?

[irerancincpkc]

Naz, it just seems like no one major dies in your synopsis. I think we are going to see some big deaths, like Perrin. I still think Thom will die...

And you forgot Min, Tam, Siuan and Egwene. I think that is it... :D

[Nazbaque]

Didn't forget Siuan and I thought I put something about the two girls.

Egwene will survive bummer that one.

If Elayne gives birth and dies in combat Min goes down with her.

Tam might die.

Gawyn will die. Only one of the Younglings will survive.

If Galad-Berelain happens they will both survive. Otherwise Galad will die.

[Davian93]

Are we allowed to have a "Dave" and a "Dav" here? That could get confusing.

As for who dies:

Rand obviously...at least for a bit til Nynaeve fixes him up.

Caddy I see dying

A whole bunch of AS and Ashaman

Taim's deadmeat from Logain

Davram Bashere's toast (just a hunch...still think he's a DF)

Faile?...pretty pretty please...I know it won't happen but still...

Most of the Aiel...perhaps Rhuarc is the DF?


On Berelain: I hope she survives as she's one of my favorite characters in the books..her and Galad would be good together.

[Yuri33]

So Rand dies, Moridin lives, Rand is dead yet alive, Last Battle seems to be done seeing as how Rand's dead and he's their only hope, but world not done with battle, Mat shows up, blows the Horn, Mat kills Moridin, and Rand seals the prison. Easy as pie.

I know we've debated this before, so I won't rehash it, but I wanted to ask about the one particular bit about Mat killing Moridin (I don't believe that came up before). What are you basing this on?

[Terez]

lol...the Mat killing Moridin thing isn't really a theory...it would just be cool if he did. It would be difficult for Moridin to get at him with the Power, after all...unless he got lucky like Rahvin did. :D

[irerancincpkc]

Egwene will survive bummer that one.
Who knows, anything could happen.

Mat killing Moridin would be awesome, but I'd consider it unlikely... :D

[Terez]

Seriously, in a series where some people can Travel, the distance between two characters is rather irrelevant.
It's not irrelevant when we have no reason for Berelain to go to Ebou Dar plotwise, and plenty of reason for Perrin's party to meet up with Galad's, plotwise - Berelain might possibly go to Ebou Dar with Rand, but it's more likely she'll bump into Galad.

Also, I see no reason to think that Beslan would still be in mourning after so long.

Min also didn't recognize Mat juggling fire in her viewing of Thom. ;)

[The Seeker]

I have to agree with Terez of course the characters arent gonna go where they arent needed or somewhere out of their way its too close to TG and everyone is determined to get done what they are doing and unless theres a reason to see thecharacter going there then dont see them doing so. I am sure Berelain will meet up with Galad though they are gonna end up together. :)

[Nazbaque]

Also, I see no reason to think that Beslan would still be in mourning after so long.
Now this I don't agree with. I don't remember how long Tylin has been dead now but I don't think it's even a full month. Mourning for more than a year might be considered too long, but never a month.

Otherwise I agree that the Berelain - Beslan is quite unlikely.

[Weird Harold]

Now this I don't agree with. I don't remember how long Tylin has been dead now but I don't think it's even a full month. Mourning for more than a year might be considered too long, but never a month.

Otherwise I agree that the Berelain - Beslan is quite unlikely.
According tot he Chronology WOT, Tylin died the night of day 710 and the epilogue of KOD takes us to day 766. Not really long enough for most mourning traditions to expire.

[irerancincpkc]

And mourning for a Queen should be longer, I'd think, without even throwing in the it's his mother aspect.

[Nazbaque]

it's 56 days? Damn there is a lot skipping in there. Two whole WoT months. But still... not enough. Of course Beslan might defy the tradition but we certainly don't have supportive evidence for that.

[Terez]

At least we know who Dragon is now. (http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1219&Category=PFDV) :D Silly theory you can't find anywhere else on the net, from Germany (http://www.wotmania.com/yourwotmaniaprofile.asp?UserID=12524) (matches up with the hours of the day Dragon is usually seen here)....why'd you refuse to tell me and then make it so easy? :p

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

Faile
Cadsuane - love the comment of going out in a blaze of glory, totally agree
most of the Aiel, in particular Gaul and Bain/Chiad will follow shortly thereafter
Leane
Min, yeah, I think that could happen, but honestly, I can see:
Elayne kicking during or shortly after childbirth. The line of Andor will be set and it will set the stage for Gawyn to lead until the tykes are grown. Keep him busy so Egs can focus on being the true Amyrlin
Noal
Oliver
Birgitte could, but I sure hope not
Tam
Elder Haman, yep, good call.
Loial's mother
Fain
Lanfear - nooooo question
Siuan, after being unmasked as a darkfriend


(had to get it in there)

[Terez]

Who is Oliver? :confused:

:p

[GonzoTheGreat]

And mourning for a Queen should be longer, I'd think, without even throwing in the it's his mother aspect.
However, there is another aspect which you seem to be overlooking: one of the most important duties of a feudal ruler, perhaps the most important of all, is producing a heir. Only in that way are civil wars avoided upon the death of the ruler.
So now that Beslan is king, he would have to find a queen as soon as possible and get her pregnant.

Of course, in his country succession is not always along dynastic lines, but if he wants to achieve that, then he will have to have a dynasty to pass it on to.

[Terez]

I think three months is plenty long enough (far too long, really) to mourn someone, even a queen and a mother.

Though I'll admit that it was a bit more plausible when Dragon came up with the theory (before Knife of Dreams was released). And part of his original argument was that Perrin would run to Ebou Dar after rescuing Faile because he would hear that Rand was in some kind of trouble there, which was also more plausible before Knife of Dreams was released.

But Beslan is still a lame match for Berelain. She needs some excitement in her life, and Beslan is just a damp rag. :p

[Dragon]

At least we know who Dragon is now. (http://www.wotmania.com/theorypostdbtheory.asp?ID=1219&Category=PFDV) :D Silly theory you can't find anywhere else on the net, from Germany (http://www.wotmania.com/yourwotmaniaprofile.asp?UserID=12524) (matches up with the hours of the day Dragon is usually seen here)....why'd you refuse to tell me and then make it so easy? :p

Well, I wanted to experience the feeling of being an unestablished rookie on another board again. ;)

As for the "Beslan being the man in white"-theory, I think it's at least a plausible other possibility against the mainstream idea: Galad. Thinking out of the box, you know. :)

[Terez]

Well, I wanted to experience the feeling of being an unestablished rookie on another board again. ;)
Well, you had long enough, didn't you? DomA has been telling me all about you. ;)

As for the "Beslan being the man in white"-theory, I think it's at least a plausible other possibility against the mainstream idea: Galad. Thinking out of the box, you know. :)
Well, I understand wanting to think outside the box...but the Beslan theory is lame. You should try thinking outside of the box on Lews Therin instead. :D

[Dragon]

Yeah, DomA was a most excellent "sparring partner" in many discussions!

IIRC, he also believes that the man in white is Galad, but whatever, I like my Beslan theory.. ;)

[Weird Harold]

Who is Oliver? :confused:

:p
Just so those woho don't recognise sarcasm over a typo:

Olver
A young Cairhienin boy.

Physical Description
He is gaunt and sullen-looking. He is ugly with a squashed nose, a mouth too wide for his face and ears too big that stick out besides. He looks six but claims to be nine. (LoC,Ch5) He is short and skinny with huge ears, nose and mouth. He looks ten. (ACoS,Ch28)

[Terez]

@Dragon - at the time that you posted the theory (I read the responses to it), he was in the Rolan camp, but I didn't ask him what he decided after Knife of Dreams.

DomA posted some while we were still on ezBoard (as Dom), and he caught my attention immediately with his thoughtful posts (he was obviously not a noob). Though I honestly don't remember what all we discussed, and it would be hard to find out now that Yuku has taken over ezBoard.

[Nazbaque]

I think three months is plenty long enough (far too long, really) to mourn someone, even a queen and a mother.
Would you get over your mother's death in three months?

I couldn't get over my grandfather's death in that time and I know I would need at least a year for my parents.

[Terez]

Get over it? No...you don't ever really get over deaths like that. But the period of public mourning doesn't really have much to do with that - that's just a ritual to honor the dead.

[Nazbaque]

For some people they are one and the same. Beslan could be like that.

[Terez]

I'd argue that Ebou Dar custom dictates that since his mother didn't die in a duel, he shouldn't mourn her all that long. Not publicly, at least.

[irerancincpkc]

Siuan, after being unmasked as a darkfriend

That is almost as bad as people saying Min is a DF. We've had too many of her POV's.

[SauceyBlueConfetti]

typos are unforgivable

[The Seeker]

Siuann is most definetly not a darkfriend but i wouldnt be surprised if she did die.

[Yuri33]

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't believe Cadsuane will do the blaze of glory thing. To me, it just doesn't fit as an appropriate ending for her. She's a formidable channeler, but her most powerful weapon has always been her sharp mind. She's a thinker, not a soldier.

I've always speculated that she'll be betrayed and killed, possibly as part of a plan to spring Semirhage.

[The Seeker]

No her inteligence has served her well which is why she won't do anything too stupid and she will go out in a blaze of glory shes still got something to teach the Asha'men and Rand so she for sure won't get taken out right away but i think shes got a few great things to do before shes ready to kick the bucket.

[Terez]

She's a thinker, not a soldier.
She's a Green, and she's hunted men who can channel for years, and she's shown capabilities in the soldier area at the Cleansing and at the Shadowspawn attack, and at the Semirhage meeting. She's more of an officer than a soldier, but don't knock her talents in battle.

[Spidy]

She's a Green, and she's hunted men who can channel for years, and she's shown capabilities in the soldier area at the Cleansing and at the Shadowspawn attack, and at the Semirhage meeting. She's more of an officer than a soldier, but don't knock her talents in battle.

All helped by the ter'angreal. There must be as sharp minds in all sorts of instances in a lot of other so-called Aes sedai. Cad didn't do too much of a role in the battle of Shadar Logoth when the Beach Ball of Taint went a skipping, nor was there much Cad action in the shielding of Semi.

She is a taint wonder.

[Terez]

What makes a good soldier? A good soldier uses whatever tools he can get his hands on to win the fight, does he not? A good soldier anticipates, reacts, adjusts when necessary. Cadsuane didn't do too much of a role? Are you serious? Rand was going to do it alone with Nynaeve! Seriously! That's why he went to Far Madding to track down Torval and the rest so that they wouldn't try to sneak up on him while he was on the job and he just REFUSED TO THINK about the Forsaken...Cadsuane had to use Alanna to track him down in Far Madding, where she saved his a$$ from the sh!t he got himself in, and when he announced his plans to use the Choedan Kal, she anticipated exactly who would show up, and she commandeered Rand's people and fu(king deployed them, and she watched over Rand on their hilltop while directing the strongest long-range weapon personally. You're right that she's not a simple soldier - she was the commander in general at the Battle of the Cleansing, and a good one (re Mat's view on the role of general) which Rand had nothing to do with other than providing the bait for the enemies.

[Yuri33]

She's a Green

Sure she is...

Other than a Green, a legitimate case could be built for her acting more like a Red (dealing with male channelers), Grey (advising Rand on negotiations and politics), Blue (championing the cause of winning TG), and even Yellow (healing Rand's\Asha'mens' mental condition). It all stems from her keen mind. I'm not knocking her abilities as a fighter (or even commander), I'm just saying that's not really her theme.

The blaze of glory thing seems like a fitting ending for characters whose theme centers around fighting. Cadsuane's theme is larger than that. In fact, I think it's going to take a betrayal to put the old bag down.

[Terez]

Cadsuane's theme is saving the world, best she knows how. Cadsuane's theme is being in the van of that cosmic battle, as it were. ;)

[Yuri33]

Cadsuane's theme is saving the world

That's pretty general--I guess you believe a whole bunch of characters fated to die are going to go out in a blaze of glory.

Cadsuane's theme is being in the van of that cosmic battle, as it were.

Yeah, as the back seat driver, so to speak. How many of those type of characters go out in a blaze of glory?

[Terez]

How can you call her a back seat driver when she went face-to-face with Semirhage?

[Yuri33]

Because she's going to have "long conversations" with her, which I think is a much more important role for her with regards to Semirhage than playing a part in her capture. Yes, she helped fight Forsaken, and that's great. But as important as she was in those encounters, that doesn't really define the kind of role she has been playing, or will play.

[Spidy]

Long convo's is finding aa way to prevent another Breaking. Capturing Grammar'endal will help with reintergration across all fronts somehow. Codswallop, big deal B'Nana Peel. Every so-called Aes Seadi weeps, scared, boo-hoo when they hear Codswallop's name. Take the Ter'Angeal away and would she be where she s at now? Probably not. Codswallop's main role to me will be harnessing Sea Folk, Wise O's (good name for a crisp that) and other ancillary stuff.

To teach Rand something he needs to learn, I have no comment at this stage.

[Terez]

That is the ending damn it and how do you know that Verins not on her way to get the horn right now for the last battle.
I don't know that, but Callandor had a good theory (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=138&theo=2458) about where she went. I think Mat's going to get the Horn from the Tower himself. :)

[irerancincpkc]

I guess I'm the only one who doesn't believe Cadsuane will do the blaze of glory thing.
Nope, I agree. :D I see her being betrayed, maybe Elza (is that her name?) will do her in?

[The Seeker]

Im sticking wioth Terez Cadsuane is a soldier through and through shes not one to be fooled and i dont see her falling into anyones traps and she has all kinds of protections (ter'angreal) if she does. She is definetly a good soldier and better yet a great leader, See how everyone falls in behind her and she takes the natural lead of every situation. Shes not one to intimidated and not one togo out lightly shes destined to do something big before she dies and she will go out in a blaze of glory.

[Yuri33]

She was very nearly (and easily) killed by Verin betraying her. In fact, you could call that a bit of foreshadowing.

[Nazbaque]

Verin was about to poison her tea nothing to say if Cads would have drank it or not if she had.

[Yuri33]

It's implied that she did drink the tea, and we know that the poison is tasteless:

WH, Wonderful News:
The door to the hall opened to admit Verin and Sorilea. The leathery, white-haired Aiel woman handed something small to Verin that the Brown tucked into her belt pouch. Verin was wearing a flowered brooch on her simple bronze-colored dress, the first jewelry Cadsuane had ever seen on her aside from her Great Serpent ring.
"That will help you sleep," Sorilea said, "but remember, just three drops in water or one in wine. A little more, and you might sleep a day or longer. Much more, and you will not wake. There is no taste to warn you, so you must be careful."

[Terez]

She was very nearly (and easily) killed by Verin betraying her. In fact, you could call that a bit of foreshadowing.
She wouldn't have drank it, because she was watching Verin:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 25 - Bonds

Cadsuane set the embroidery hoop on her lap and leaned back. "Will you make me some tea, Verin?"

In spite of herself, Verin gave a small start. The other sister had not looked in her direction once. "Of course, Cadsuane." A heavily worked silver teapot sat on a four-legged stand on one of the side tables, and was still hot, luckily. "Was it wise to let Alanna go?" she asked.

"I could hardly stop her without letting the boy know more than he should, now could I?" Cadsuane replied dryly.

Taking her time, Verin tipped the teapot to pour into a thin blue porcelain cup. Not Sea Folk porcelain, but very fine. "Do you have any idea why he came to Far Madding, of all places? I nearly swallowed my tongue when it came to me that the reason he had stopped leaping about might be because he was here. If it's something dangerous, perhaps we should try to stop him."

"Verin, he can do whatever his heart desires, anything at all, as long as he lives to reach Tarmon Gai'don. And as long as I can be at his side long enough to make him learn how to laugh again, and cry." Closing her eyes, she rubbed her temples with her fingertips and sighed. "He is turning into a stone, Verin, and if he doesn't relearn that he's human, winning the Last Battle may not be much better than losing. Young Min told him he needs me; I got that much out of her without rousing her suspicions. But I must wait for him to come to me. You see the way he runs roughshod over Alanna and the others. It will be hard enough teaching him, if he does ask. He fights guidance, he thinks he must do everything, learn everything, on his own, and if I do not make him work for it, he won't learn at all." Her hands dropped onto the embroidery hoop on her lap. "I seem to be in a confiding mood tonight. Unusual, for me. If you ever finish pouring that tea, I may confide some more."

"Oh, yes; of course." Hastily filling a second cup, Verin slipped the small vial back into her pouch unopened. It was good to be sure of Cadsuane at last. "Do you take honey?" she asked in her most muddled voice. "I never can remember."

[Yuri33]

That's not compelling at all. Verin only decided not to slip the poison in after Cadsuane's monologue on helping Rand. If Verin truly believed Cadsuane could have seen what she was doing, she wouldn't have made the attempt in the first place.

[Terez]

I didn't say Verin knew she was watching did I? She had no idea about Cadsuane's little mirror - there's nothing to indicate she realized why Cadsuane knew she was there at all.

[Nazbaque]

Verin's belief is not the issue but that Cads wouldn't necessarily have drunk the poison because we know her mirror in the basket trick.

[Yuri33]

Cadsuane tipped Verin off that she had some way to see what Verin was doing, yet Verin still attempted to poison her, to the point of taking the vile out. Only later, when Verin was sure about Cadsuane, did she abort the attempt.

Plus, it's entirely reasonable to believe that the mirror trick can show Verin near the tea set, but not not enough to show Verin slipping something in. Verin would have been even more careful knowing that Cadsuane could see her getting tea to begin with.

I mean, if Cadsuane truly did see anything of Verin's attempt, you would think she would be more suspicious of Verin afterwards. There's nothing to indicate a change in their relationship after this incident.

[Terez]

Cadsuane's good about not letting stuff like that show. Also, there's no reason for her to distrust Verin, because Verin decided NOT to poison her after what she said. So Cadsuane realizes that Verin is just as ruthless about the same mission as her, if not more ruthless.

Cadsuane knows that her mirror trick never occurs to people, so it's not like she was trying to tip off Verin, or that she would consider Verin to be tipped off after letting her know she was there.

[irerancincpkc]

I'm pretty sure that Cadsuane would have drank it. But alas, we will never know. :D I kind of like Cadsuane; I'm glad she didn't die. :D

[Nazbaque]

I honestly don't see how this can be used against Cads. Either she got lucky when Verin desided to not poison her or she cleverly told her enough to convince her not to do so. Everyone gets lucky that can't be used against her and the other one is definitely a point for her.

[Yuri33]

Also, there's no reason for her to distrust Verin, because Verin decided NOT to poison her after what she said. So Cadsuane realizes that Verin is just as ruthless about the same mission as her, if not more ruthless.

I don't know about you, but I would still be suspicious. After all, if Verin were that ruthless, there's nothing to prevent her from trying again if Cadsuane said something wrong later on.

Parsing the fine details of the incident is useless. I'm not saying this is exactly how it's going to happen, I was just pointing to the incident as a bit of foreshadowing. Cadsuane has accepted drinks from others without observing the preparation of those drinks in the past, and so being poisoned isn't unreasonable.

She's going to be interrogating a Forsaken, and there are Darkfriends around her. It's not unreasonable to believe that one of them tries to spring Semirhage by betraying and killing Cadsuane, and it would probably take something like a poison to pull it off.

There are going to be plenty of good guys that die in a blaze of glory, because their central role in TG is going to be largely as fighters. I just believe it's more interesting if someone unique like Cadsuane is killed in an entirely different manner--I don't think it takes anything away from her character if she is killed by being betrayed.

[Terez]

Blaze of glory, end of. :D

[Yuri33]

I guess the other thing we'd have to decide on is what exactly "blaze of glory" means. I picture it as fighting to the bitter end, bloodied and hurt, against overwhelming forces.

RJ has gone out of his way to make sure Cadsuane is never seen in anything but pristine condition. At the Cleansing and at the Semirhage encounter, she appears to not even be touched. Even in the aftermath of the trolloc attack in KoD, she "glides" across the bloody field, "untouched" by the carnage. She even wove an umbrella of air to avoid being wet. It just seems inelegant to believe that she's going to be all messed up going out in a blaze of glory. Her death should be much more "civilized." :)

[Nazbaque]

"Last stand" would be fighting to bitter end. Blaze of glory is a last stand that takes down a LOT of enemies. Relative to the weapon in hand of course. Taking down a hundred Trollocs with sa'angreal isn't much of a blaze of glory, taking them down with a sword is.

[Terez]

I guess the other thing we'd have to decide on is what exactly "blaze of glory" means. I picture it as fighting to the bitter end, bloodied and hurt, against overwhelming forces. I picture it like Moiraine. :) Don't get me wrong...they're two very different characters. But what they share is a full-bodied dedication to the cause. Cadsuane didn't expect to live long in New Spring, and if there is ever a situation where she could buy Rand's life with her own she would do it in a heartbeat. A good opportunity for this would be with Graendal in Arad Doman. It would also be cool if Rand killed his first 'female' Forsaken there. :D I can see these characters being specifically designed (planned as far back as books 6 and 7) to help him overcome his little problem (a problem that started getting bad in book 4, much worse in 5)...and of course Sorilea will be all up in it somehow (she's in Arad Doman with Aviendha), and then to Caemlyn, Birgitte (planned since book 4), and Moiraine (planned since book 4).

[Frenzy]

I would cry. :( I'm not even going to think about that happening...

aww c'mon spammer, just dwell on it a bit. Objectively. Elayne has a post-TG purpose to her people, as does Aviendha. Min doesn't. Might as well paint a big giant target on her pretty little forehead.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Min will produce the next king of Illian. She's already known far and wide as the Dragon's Concubine, so there is no problem with legitimacy.

[Yuri33]

But what they share is a full-bodied dedication to the cause.

So Cadsuane is a Blue? :)

if there is ever a situation where she could buy Rand's life with her own she would do it in a heartbeat.

Which can apply to a whole bunch of other people, as we've already seen time and time again.

[4Alethinos]

Here is one wise old bird, indeed. She is as tough as a dried out shoe and is no one to fool with.

Why do you think she gave that monologue to Verin? She may have some insight into that very ruthless person too often seen as a bumbling Brown. She knew that she had to placate Verin and whether she knew about her peril at Verin's hands or not is unclear from the text.

Cadsuane is a Green and no other Ajah need apply. she went after some of the false Dragons because she knew that she could handle them better than any Red. BTW, isn't that what a battle ajah warrior would do?

It is possible that Cadsuane may not survive the LB. However, I do not see why the need to denigrate one of the most famous AS ever to walk the ground in this present generation.

I do not understand criticism of her for her strategy and tactics at the cleansing. People who do that do not understand warfare, apparently. She had her losses, but the battle was won. Considering the nature of the opposition, she did very well, indeed.

At this point, Cadsuane wears several hats. One is a staff advisor to Rand. Another is to be a leader and general to those of the Aes Sedai who will be following Rand directly. She is, evidently, going to let the WT take care of itself.

We will see what happens after Egwene becomes Amyrlin of the united WT as to how the WT will be led in the Last Battle.

"Critics are often thought to be wise, when they are just gadflies with no real wisdom." :D

[natural1dave]

The easiest of the main cadre of characters to die is Min. She serves no political nor plot-driven purpose at the end of the story, so she's officially the red shirt.

Perrin's head is severely screwed up right now. And given a certain conversation i'm sure everyone's well aware of could easily be interpreted as foreshadowing, Faile may die. Perrin already has the broken crown (Faile), and he has already played the general, so all stated plot foreshadowing could be done with.

that's it for the top tier characters. for now. i can see plausible storylines that could off a lot of second-tier characters, but i'm not sure that's what you're looking for, Dave.


sorry for being slow to get back to you on this...but if min dies, what about the foretelling of rand and 3 women on a boat after the battle?

[Terez]

Well, she could die after that. Most seem to think that scene will not be the end.

[natural1dave]

On Berelain: I hope she survives as she's one of my favorite characters in the books..her and Galad would be good together.

whenever i see the galad/berelain connection i always wonder how they can be a couple. galad is a total straight edge while berelain is your sorority girl gone wild. i could see her falling for his looks...but could you see galad putting up with the low cut dresses and constant flirting!?

[Terez]

I don't think that Galad is necessarily quite so straight-edge as all that. Yeah, he might expect her to dress properly, but she would do it. :D

We were discussing this once, and Frenzy brought up the actual meaning of the phrase "snubbed up"...

[Weird Harold]

Well, she could die after that. Most seem to think that scene will not be the end.
That would not be consistent with the Legend of King Arthur, which it was stolen from -- in mean "inspired by." :D

King Arthur's body bein sailed away for burial by three women is the tradtional epilogue of the Arthurian legend, so unless it's a viewing of a ruse intended to "trick" prophecy into believing Rand is dead before T'G, it has to happen after T'G when the majority of the deaths are probably going to occur.

Nicola Treehill
LoC,Ch14 - "The lion sword, the dedicated spear, she who sees beyond. Three on the boat, and he who is dead yet lives. The great battle done, but the world not done with battle. The land divided by the return, and the guardians balance the servants. The future teeters on the edge of a blade."

It can be argued that the bold portion doesn't have to date the first portion but it's fairly clear to me that the whole Foretelling describes a single point in the future, whoich could be considered an "epilogue" to Rand's story, just as the funeral barge of King Arthur is the Traditonal "epilogue" to the Legend.

[Weird Harold]

...galad is a total straight edge while berelain is your sorority girl gone wild.

Galad is a lot more complicated than the "he'll do whatever is right, no matter the cost" charge laid on him by an oppressed little sister and cryptic Visions/Dreams.

Berelian, otoh, is definitely nothing like the public persona she uses as protective coloration -- and it really doesn't take a lot of analysis to see that she's a lot less promiscuous and bubble-headed as she seems on the surface.

The Aeil saw through the poor little rich girl disguise almost immediately.

[Terez]

That would not be consistent with the Legend of King Arthur, which it was stolen from -- in mean "inspired by." :D
Since when is RJ consistent with legends? His plot and characters are a patchwork quilt of legends.

It can be argued that the bold portion doesn't have to date the first portion but it's fairly clear to me that the whole Foretelling describes a single point in the future, whoich could be considered an "epilogue" to Rand's story, just as the funeral barge of King Arthur is the Traditonal "epilogue" to the Legend.
I doubt it's an epilogue simply because the world is teetering on the edge of a sword, which definitely implies that there is something important yet to happen.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Since when is RJ consistent with legends? His plot and characters are a patchwork quilt of legends.


I doubt it's an epilogue simply because the world is teetering on the edge of a sword, which definitely implies that there is something important yet to happen.


Plus, in the most famous retellings of the Arthur story, he's not dead and is taken to Avalon to lie in repose, or in wait, or for the Internets, or something.

The reason I point this out is that I've always linked that Foretelling with Egwene's Dream of Logain stepping over a funeral bier and the puppet-Rand. Rand's death will be faked, and the epilogue will most likely be Rand living in obscurity with Min somewhere. :D

[Terez]

I've always linked that Foretelling with Egwene's Dream of Logain stepping over a funeral bier and the puppet-Rand.
Me too.
Rand's death will be faked, and the epilogue will most likely be Rand living in obscurity with Min somewhere. :D
I'm not sure if you're being serious (it seems not) but I doubt a faked death would satisfy any of the visions/prophecies/Aelfinn stuff.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Me too.

I'm not sure if you're being serious (it seems not) but I doubt a faked death would satisfy any of the visions/prophecies/Aelfinn stuff.
Kind of joking, but I do think the faking of Rand's death will happen at some point. I'm thinking it won't happen after the LB, but maybe as a pretext to allow Rand to do what is necessary to seal up Shy Tan.

So, Rand pretends to die (with Alivia's help), and Logain takes over as the leader of the Black Tower and all male channelers. He hooks up with Egwene as the leader of the female channelers, and they hook up with Mat, Tuon, Perrin, and the Aiel to become the forces of Light for the Last Battle.

Meanwhile, the three Queens secret Rand off somewhere to perform some ritual to plug the Bore. He needs Min there to help him figure it out, because she's now Herid Fel incarnate.

Honestly, I don't know how it will go down from there. I could see Rand and the women hooking up with Nynaeve and Lan to lead them through the Blight to Shayol Ghul, along with the army of Malkier. Then again, why wouldn't they just Travel there?

My two big questions:

1) Will Rand use the Choedan Kal again?
2) Will Rand need the help of other super-strong male and female channelers to do the deed?

I guess we just have no clue how he's going to seal the Bore, so it's tough to speculate. Fain has to be involved at the end, as does Moridin, I think.

Maybe the secret is the merger of the two Champions (of Light and Dark) to achieve perfect balance. Hell, throw Fain in there to make a tripod then spill the blood of all three in some ritual. Now I'm verging into Erikson territory...

[GonzoTheGreat]

At a guess, he won't go to the Pit of Doom to try to repeat LTT's action. That didn't turn out quite as well as it had been hoped, and Rand knows that.

[4Alethinos]

If the soul of Rand were to wind up in Moridin's body, then the burial of said RAnd body will be a charade to get one Al'Thor off of the scene and into happy obscurity to visit with his three wives/concubines and the resulting kiddos.

"Don't look at me like that." hehe

[Terez]

Oh god, lamest theory ever...

[The Seeker]

I second that come one you can doo better than that.

[irerancincpkc]

I doubt a faked death would satisfy any of the visions/prophecies/Aelfinn stuff.
I don't know, I think it could...

[Terez]

You think it could because you don't want Rand to die. But the Aelfinn say he has to die, and they meant it when they said it to Mat, so it stands to reason they also meant it for Rand.

[irerancincpkc]

That doesn't mean there aren't two ways to acheive the same goal.

[Terez]

Well, the only way to die is to die. :p

[irerancincpkc]

The Dragon Reborn could die, but Rand al' Thor could live on.

[Terez]

lol...if it weren't for the fact that Rand is the Dragon Reborn. :rolleyes:

[irerancincpkc]

Once Tarmon Gai'don is over, why would Rand need to be the Dragon Reborn anymore?

[Terez]

The point is that the Dragon Reborn can't die without Rand dying also, because Rand is the Dragon Reborn.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Maybe Spammer means the "Dragon Soul" or the "Chosen One"? Once the LB is over the Chosen One soul isn't necessary for the Pattern anymore, so it could (somehow) die while Rand the goofy farmboy lives on. Not that I see anything like that happening.

But I don't hold to a strict interpretation of "To live, you must die" meaning real, actual death.

Besides, there's may be foreshadowing when Nynaeve says something that "Healing a person three days dead," and when everyone tells her that Healing death is impossible. Maybe Alivia helps Rand die in a manner that lets Nynaeve resurrect him.

Just speculatin'...

[irerancincpkc]

I was just trying to get Terez mad there... :D

I am in the resurrection camp though... in addition to that bit of Nynaeve foreshadowment; Thom thinks somewhere he wouldn't believe Rand was dead unless it he had been for three days or something like that...

[Terez]

I was just trying to get Terez mad there... :D
It takes a lot to make me mad, unless I'm in a bad mood already. :D

Thom thinks somewhere he wouldn't believe Rand was dead unless it he had been for three days or something like that...
Where?

And Nynaeve is so not going to Heal death. That would just make the world all crazy...

[Weird Harold]

I was just trying to get Terez mad there... :D

I am in the resurrection camp though... in addition to that bit of Nynaeve foreshadowment; Thom thinks somewhere he wouldn't believe Rand was dead unless it he had been for three days or something like that...
That wasn't Thom, it was Elaynes First Clerk, Halwin Norry:


Norry nodded once. He might have been reporting the current state of street repairs. "So my correspondent reports, my Lady. Aes Sedai, perhaps, or Asha'man, or even the Forsaken. She repeats gossip here, I fear. The wing housing the apartments of the Dragon Reborn was largely destroyed, and he himself has vanished. It is widely believed that he has gone to Tar Valon to kneel before the Amyrlin Seat. Some do believe him dead in the attack, but not a great many. I advise doing nothing until you have a clearer picture." He paused, head tilted in thought. "From what I saw of him, my Lady," he said slowly, "I myself would not believe him dead unless I sat three days with the corpse."

She [Elayne] almost stared. That was very nearly a joke. A rough witticism, at least. From Halwin Norry! She did not believe Rand was dead, either.

That's the only reference to Rand being three days dead that I know of.

Nyneave as never said that she would Heal someone three days dead, but one of the other characters siad of her obsession with Healing that whe ouldn't be happy until she had figured out how to Heal someone Three Days Dead.

The "Three Days Dead" specification is a reference to the tradition of a "Wake" where a person is laid out on display for three days to avoid burying somone who is only in a deep coma.

[Terez]

Well, it's also a reference to Jesus...

[Weird Harold]

Well, it's also a reference to Jesus...

True, indirectly of course. :D

A Wake lasts three days because no mere mortal could better Jesus Christ's three days. TheThree Day tradition inthe WOT doesn't derive from The Easter tradtion of Christianity, though; it apparently derives from a purely practical limitation.

Found the reference to Nyneave:

Neither of these rings worked quite as well as the original, though they did work. Elayne was getting a little better at that; of four attempts to produce a copy, only one had been a failure. A much better average than with the things she made from scratch. But what if one of her failures did worse than simply not work, or not work very well? Aes Sedai had been stilled studying ter’angreal. Burned out, it was called when it happened by accident, yet it was just as final. Nynaeve did not think so, of course, but Nynaeve would not be satisfied till she Healed somebody three days dead.

There may be other foreshadowings, but RJ uses the phrase "Three Days" a bunch and the wording isn't always "three days dead."

[The Seeker]

Yeah, there is not gonna be any resurrection in my opinion. The ability to ressurect someone would open too many doors for everyone that could channel.

[irerancincpkc]

Yes, it was Norry, not Thom. ~Kicks myself~ I guess it's time for another reread. :D

[The Seeker]

Im about to start a reread myself. Too much of what i read here is making me wonder a reread is definetly necessary.

[Crispin's Crispian]

True, indirectly of course. :D

A Wake lasts three days because no mere mortal could better Jesus Christ's three days. TheThree Day tradition inthe WOT doesn't derive from The Easter tradtion of Christianity, though; it apparently derives from a purely practical limitation.


I never got the "three days" with Jesus. He was killed on Friday and rose on Sunday, which means he was dead for only about two days, if that.

Anyway, I think there's at least one more quote about "three days dead," and it has the ring of a common Randland phrase. That's the beauty of RJ's writing--you never know if he's just making a cultural reference or if he's foreshadowing.

[Terez]

Well, sometimes the references are obvious. :D

[Weird Harold]

I never got the "three days" with Jesus. He was killed on Friday and rose on Sunday, which means he was dead for only about two days, if that.

You're absolutely correct, Jesus wasn't "dead for three days," he "rose on the third day" so the christian tradition became "three days dead" before burial.

Wakes are also another christian tradition that's stolen from pagans because the problem of distinguishing a deep coma from death was a universal human problem and three days is a practical length of thime to insure that a person is not going to wake up.

Anyway, I think there's at least one more quote about "three days dead," and it has the ring of a common Randland phrase. That's the beauty of RJ's writing--you never know if he's just making a cultural reference or if he's foreshadowing.

I think in this case, he's doing both.

The three days before burial "rule" is a widespread phenomenon in the real world and RJ is making a point about how Randland defines death -- "no vital signs for three days" -- then foreshadowing that Rand is going to meet that definition and Nyneave is going to revivie him in spite of it.

[Yuri33]

As Terez has brought up before, Nyneave Healing death is out of the question--it would wreak too much havoc with the world if that weave became widespread.

Additionally, there was the whole scene in tSR where Rand tried to bring the little girl back from the dead. It's something Rand (and everyone else) has to accept. Death cannot be Healed.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Of course, that little girl had been dead for a lot less than three days when Moiraine pronounced her irrevocably dead, thus ruining the neat "a three day wake is customary to guard against cases of deep coma" explanation.

Heck, Ingtar was pronounced dead while he was still talking and preaparing to fight.

[Weird Harold]

Of course, that little girl had been dead for a lot less than three days when Moiraine pronounced her irrevocably dead, thus ruining the neat "a three day wake is customary to guard against cases of deep coma" explanation.

Yep, it is ever so necessary to wait three days when the blood is all on the outside and starting to thicken becaue that might be a mere coma. :(

The point is that Rand didn't try to Heal her because he doesn't know HOW to Heal.

Nyneave might have been able to Heal the little girl because she had NOT been dead three days; she probably would not have been able to at that point in the story but it wouldn't have been terribly miraculous had she done so -- modern, R/L trauma centers can come close to saving someone with that sort of trauma although she was well past the "golden hour" mark.

Rand pulled his gaze away from her, and it fell on the body of a dark-haired girl, little more than a child. She lay sprawled on her back, eyes wide and fixed on the ceiling, blood blackening the bosom of her dress. Sadly, he bent to brush strands of hair from her face. Light, she is only a child. I was too late. Why didn't I do it sooner? A child!

"I will see that someone takes care of her, Rand," Moiraine said gently. "You cannot help her now."

His hand shook so hard on Callandor that he could barely hold on. "With this, I can do anything." His voice was harsh in his own ears. "Anything!"

"Rand!" Moiraine said urgently.

He would not listen. The Power was in him. Callandor blazed, and he was the Power. He channeled, directing flows into the child's body, searching, trying, fumbling; she lurched to her feet, arms and legs unnaturally rigid and jerky.

"Rand, you cannot do this. Not this!"

Breathe. She has to breathe. The girl's chest rose and fell. Heart. Has to beat. Blood already thick and dark oozed from the wound in her chest. Live. Live, burn you! I didn't mean to be too late. Her eyes stared at him, filmed. Lifeless. Tears trickled unheeded down his cheeks. "She has to live! Heal her, Moiraine. I don't know how. Heal her!"

"Death cannot be Healed, Rand. You are not the Creator."

Again, Rand's madness here is not relevant to the possibility of Healing Death -- especially a Death from non-traumatic causes that could be confused with a deep coma (or OP induced Stasis, applied by Alivia.)

[Yuri33]

The point is that Rand didn't try to Heal her because he doesn't know HOW to Heal.

Nyneave might have been able to Heal the little girl because she had NOT been dead three days; she probably would not have been able to at that point in the story but it wouldn't have been terribly miraculous had she done so -- modern, R/L trauma centers can come close to saving someone with that sort of trauma although she was well past the "golden hour" mark.

As recently as the trolloc attack in KoD, we've seen Nyneave unable to Heal death or revive them (the soldiers in the barn). She wouldn't even try. It never occurred to her that she might even be able to do so, and I don't see her reversing her position on that anytime soon, even if Rand were the one to die.

Modern medicine might have revived the girl, but she would have most likely been a vegetable.

[Weird Harold]

As recently as the trolloc attack in KoD, we've seen Nyneave unable to Heal death or revive them (the soldiers in the barn). She wouldn't even try. It never occurred to her that she might even be able to do so, and I don't see her reversing her position on that anytime soon, even if Rand were the one to die.

Modern medicine might have revived the girl, but she would have most likely been a vegetable.
Healing violent trauma with bloodloss is a different proposition than Healing something that might cause a long-term coma.

Nyneave has no personal commitment to the soldiers in the barn -- at least nothing as strong as her sense of duty towards the Two Rivers folk she followed out of the Two Rivers or her emotional commitment to Lan. Were Rand among those lying in the barn, Nyneave just might have changed her evaluation of the situation.

Whether the foreshadowing of Rand being "dead" long enough to convince even the doubters like Halwin Norry is a Read Herring or not we'll have to RAFO, but the Foreshadowing is clearly there for Nyneave performing a "miracle" on Rand after he's "Three Days Dead."

[GonzoTheGreat]

Whether the foreshadowing of Rand being "dead" long enough to convince even the doubters like Halwin Norry is a Read Herring or not we'll have to RAFO, but the Foreshadowing is clearly there for Nyneave performing a "miracle" on Rand after he's "Three Days Dead."
I like that one. Was it intentional?

[Terez]

Knowing WH's arthritic fingers, probably not. :)

[Weird Harold]

Knowing WH's arthritic fingers, probably not. :)
It's isn't the arthritis that causes that, my fingers were stupid long before they got arthritic. :D

[Nazbaque]

It's isn't?

[GonzoTheGreat]

Still, I think that I like the possibilities of this new classification scheme.
-Read Herring: Misdirection that is read into the text without any intention by the author.
-Write Herring: Misdirection that is deliberately put into the text by the author.
-Red Herring: a Write Herring that is noticed by the readers.

[4Alethinos]

WH, you just have to stop blaming stuff on arthritic fingers or arthritic brains. Do what I do. Blame it on the keyboard.

"Great minds must stick together." :)

[Weird Harold]

WH, you just have to stop blaming stuff on arthritic fingers or arthritic brains. Do what I do. Blame it on the keyboard.

"Great minds must stick together." :)
Nah, I replace keyboards that cause me problems. Replacing rebellious, dyslexic, stupid fingers is not within my budget. :D

[4Alethinos]

Good grief! You have to be a conservative since you are taking personal responsibility. :D

[Terez]

What does that make you, Mr. It's the Keyboard's Fault? Just the idea of someone more conservative than you is downright horrifying...

[Frenzy]

i have uncles that make 4A look like he belongs in Berkeley. They make backwoods Montana militias look safe and sane.

sleep well, terez.

[Terez]

Oh, I always do. Probably because I stay awake until my brain is no longer functioning. :D

[4Alethinos]

Frenzy: As usual, you give me hope. hehe

I will have you know, Terez, that my keyboard totally agrees with me. It accepts its proper responsibility in the blame for the typos, errors of recall, and other failures to communicate correctly. So there. :)

"Having good fact checkers is always useful. This assumes their benevolence, however." ;)