And you believed him??

[Terez]

But apparently, he wasn't lying (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/120251/t/The-NY-booksigning-confirming-from-dragonmount-.html#reply-120251):

Yes, the Champion of the Light has gone over in the past. This is a game you have to win every time. Or rather, that you can only lose once--you can stay in if you get a draw. Think of a tournament with single elimination. If you lose once, that's it. In the past, when the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow, the result has been a draw.
Interesting quote, that. Make it clear that the Shadow's never truly won before.

[Anaiya Sedai]

hmm so what would need to happen for the shadow to win?

[Dragon]

That's indeed interesting. I always believed that Ishamael was wrong about the Champion turning the sides.

However, this rather supports the point - which was discussed recently - that the Shadow also wouldn't automatically win if they kill one of the lesser two ta'veren of the "tripod", Mat and Perrin.

After all, if victory isn't even assured if the Champion of the Light fights on the Shadow's side (probably the Wheel could still counter this somehow), it can hardly be the case if a less important person dies.

I wonder how a draw looks like; is it similar to the dead Mirror World from TGH?

Considering the Shadow's plans, it seems likely that the DO can truly only win, if he manages to create a certain high measure of chaos and gets free.

Sucks to follow the DO in any case..

[Terez]

However, this rather supports the point - which was discussed recently - that the Shadow also wouldn't automatically win if they kill one of the lesser two ta'veren of the "tripod", Mat and Perrin.
No, not really - like RJ said, the Shadow has 'won' before, but I think it's obvious he's drawing the distinction between what the world would see as the Shadow winning (such as at the end of the last Age, or worse, if the Dragon turns to the Shadow), and what the Dark One would see as winning, which would be destroying the Wheel and remaking the Pattern in his own image.

[Dragon]

Yes, but I meant that the Shadow wouldn't have truly won just if Mat or Perrin die.

[Terez]

I don't think that is what people were getting at, though. Anything other than Rand sealing up the Dark One again amounts to the Shadow winning as far as we're concerned. As I'm sure you know, RJ's also said that there are degrees of victory:


Q: When Rand takes Verin and the others through a portal stone in The Great Hunt, at the end of each life he hears "I have won again Lews Therin". I thought that if the Dark One won even once the Wheel would be broken and therefore the Dragon would not be reborn again. How could the Dark One have won before to be able to say "again"?

RJ: There are degrees of victory. The Dark One can achieve victory by breaking free, but can also achieve lesser victories. Such as by stopping the Dragon Reborn from doing other things he was born to do. It isn't as simple as him being born to fight The Dark One. It's never simple.

[Anaiya Sedai]

but if the light truly won, wouldn't that be just as absolute as if the shadow won?
are we going to see another draw for one reason or another?
how does that fit some of our prophecies? (eg. nicola's?)

[Yuri33]

It seems to me that draw or not, the sealing of the Bore is a common theme to every turning of the Wheel. If the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow in past turnings, who exactly sealed the Bore like it never existed?

[4Alethinos]

I completely agree, Yuri, that it is the sealing of the Bore that matters the most. I still have no clue how it is to be done.

I only have a few educated guesses as to how it was made in the first place. It had to involve moving the spatial coordinates that are a part of the Pattern to allow access to the Prison of the DO. Other than that, I am not really sure how the coordinates can be restored. It has obviously been accomplished, but how is the question.

"Where do I find a can of tire patch that I can blow at the Pattern?"

[Sodas]

Remember, Ishmael was painting a broader picture of a Champion of Dark for Rand. The whole "weither you live or die, you will still serve the Dark" was blatantly false. The Champion choose the Dark for their own reasons which ended up playing to a draw (because the other Hero's counteracted him).

LTT's attempt resulted in a draw, where the DO is barely sealed, and could be freed. A win for the Light is to return the seal and prison to pre-War of Shadow type.

Wiether Rand will go back to the pre-War of Shadow type or not is up in the air. I'm sure however, that he will break all the Seals before T.G.

[Anaiya Sedai]

but even if it goes back to the pre-War of Shadow type, it should still be possible for the DO to free himself again, right?
Which would mean that's a draw again.
Light can't really exsist without Dark in my eyes, so it kinda looks to me like there can't be an absolute win for the light, or for the Shadow. Just my opinion though.

[Weird Harold]

but even if it goes back to the pre-War of Shadow type, it should still be possible for the DO to free himself again, right?
Which would mean that's a draw again.
Light can't really exsist without Dark in my eyes, so it kinda looks to me like there can't be an absolute win for the light, or for the Shadow. Just my opinion though.
RJ used a boxing analogy to describe the realtive positions going into the last book. I think that's an apt source for the win-lose-draw problem. Each turning of the wheel is like one round of an endless boxing match. As long as the DO is imprisoned, the Light is ahead on points for the overall match, so the only way for the DO to win the bout is to come up with a Knockout that shatters his prison.

The Light is content for the match to go on forever as long as the final KO is avoided, it doesn't really matter to the Wheel whether any particular round is a Win, Draw, or Loss-on-points; it is only that match-ending knockout punch that "concerns" the Wheel.

Of course, not being sentient, the Wheel isn't actually "concerned" about anything, but its corrective mechanisms are geared to maintining its continued Turning, so the Win/Lose scenario is actually Continuation or Catastrophic Failure with no "draw" possible.

[Terez]

It seems to me that draw or not, the sealing of the Bore is a common theme to every turning of the Wheel. If the Champion of the Light has gone over to the Shadow in past turnings, who exactly sealed the Bore like it never existed?
I think we have had this discussion before, have we not? I think the prison can only be sealed by Rand in Hero form (going along with, why was the Horn made to begin with, and Fel's thoughts that the Dragon Reborn probably couldn't make the prison whole like the Creator made it). If he is turned to the Shadow in other lives, he can still be used to seal the prison when he's dead. :D

[Yuri33]

If he is turned to the Shadow in other lives, he can still be used to seal the prison when he's dead.

And as you may have remembered, I called that solution lame, because it minimizes the importance of what he does or will have to do before he dies.

I mean, do you really think the solution is the same as what happened to Neo at the end of Matrix Revolutions?

[Neilbert]

I'm wondering why he said "Champion of the Light" and not "Dragon".

Could it be that he was referring to some soul other than Rand's?

Also, for kicks, imagine the reunion in TAR afterwards.

[Matoyak]

Well, isn't it just in the previous Age of Legends that he got the nickname of Dragon? I mean, he's also known as the Car'a'carn, the Commador (or whatever it is to the...whatever they are, seafolkish people) etc. So he just covered all the basics by saying Champion of Light, or at least, that's the way I think of it.

[The Seeker]

In each age he has a different name LTT was named the Dragon but before him we dont know what the champions name was so Champion of the light covers the hero of light in general whoever it may have been in whatever age it occured in.

[Terez]

And as you may have remembered, I called that solution lame, because it minimizes the importance of what he does or will have to do before he dies.
How though? The prison only has to be sealed once a Turning, and Rand's soul is apparently born once an Age, and what he does is always important.

I mean, do you really think the solution is the same as what happened to Neo at the end of Matrix Revolutions? I didn't see that movie.

[GonzoTheGreat]

I'm wondering why he said "Champion of the Light" and not "Dragon".

Could it be that he was referring to some soul other than Rand's?
In some Ages, it is Rand who is the Champion of the Light. This is the case in the Second and Third Age, for example. But in other Ages it is some other soul.

[Spidy]

Um, get aa grip. RJ is before Neo et al re whatever, therefore any "analogies" should be prefaced with "what come before". Remember, RJ said he wrote the last scene from the first, which means it was an "eighties" write at the latest. That's twenty years ago.

By the way, any "a" in any sentence is now to be written as an "aa" in all posts everywhere. wE SHALL BE THE nAE'bLIS OF "GRAEMMENAL", i MEAN "Grammer". So said, someone, sounding suspiciously like "Snow" who has aa "Myrddraal" fetish.

[Terez]

I think Spidy's wombat just ran across his keyboard.

[Spidy]

No it didn't. There is substance there that should be commented upon.

[Terez]

lol....I love how you fixed all the typos except for the aa. :D

[Spidy]

lol....I love how you fixed all the typos except for the aa. :D

Just fell back on to the B'nana L'nge.
And where is the substance rebuttal??????

[Terez]

Why would I rebut something I agree with?

[Spidy]

To rebut of course, silly.

[Terez]

By the way, any "a" in any sentence is now to be written as an "aa" in all posts everywhere.
Do you have Quotemaster steel toes? If not, then how do you intend to enforce your decree?
wE SHALL BE THE nAE'bLIS OF "GRAEMMENAL", i MEAN "Grammer".
Isn't that Gil?
So said, someone, sounding suspiciously like "Snow" who has aa "Myrddraal" fetish.
You get props, at least, for spelling Myrddraal correctly. People have serious problems with that one. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

But, but, why rebut?

[Terez]

But, re Spidese, rebuttal comes with.

[irerancincpkc]

I'm not sure that was a rebuttal... not much rebutting going on...

[Spidy]

That is aa right, no rebuttal at all. On the boot subject, Frenzy is who I defer to. Discuss at your peril.

Where is the substantial rebuttal or do I have to rephrase.

[Terez]

I'm not sure that asking you to rephrase would be wise. :D

[Yuri33]

How though? The prison only has to be sealed once a Turning, and Rand's soul is apparently born once an Age, and what he does is always important.

Your theory goes:

1) Do stuff while alive
2) Die
3) Get called back with a legendary instrument to do the really important thing: seal the Bore like it never existed.

By RJ's own admission, #1 can run the full gamut, from championing the cause of the Light, to betraying to the Shadow, to dying prematurely and not getting everything done (RJ's partial victories or draws). All of that is moot if #2 and #3 are going to occur no matter which way #1 goes, because #3 is the end goal for the Pattern anyways.

Besides, where does the knowledge come from for sealing the Bore? From doing stuff while alive (like Rand's discussions with Fel)? That wouldn't apply in a turning where Rand went over to the Shadow (why would anyone on the Shadow's side teach him that?). Does it come from returning to TAR and reintegrating with all his past lives? That kind of makes everything else pointless.

I didn't see that movie.

I don't blame you, the ending was lame, as I think most who saw it would agree. I won't spoil it for you if plan to see it some time, but let's just say there are similar elements between your theory and how that movie ends, which contributed greatly to the lameness.

And Spidy, I never claimed RJ was copying the Wachowski brothers. I was just pointing out similarities between how they resolved the Matrix trilogy and Terez's theory.

[Spidy]

You can't get knowledge unless you are aa Hero, not spun out, ripped you are cactus on current info.

Tainted saidin or saidar, who says in past ages it wasn't reversed. Only way to get memories is Taint, T'A'R hero'ness, or Finns and even Mat don't go back to the Breaking.

Where is your evidence?

[GonzoTheGreat]

The Aiel memory insertion thingies in Rhuidean do go back to the Breaking, and even further: to before the drilling of the Bore. And the wolves have (rather vague, admittedly) memories that seem to predate the Age of Legends.

[Terez]

The Aiel memory insertion thingies in Rhuidean do go back to the Breaking, and even further: to before the drilling of the Bore. And the wolves have (rather vague, admittedly) memories that seem to predate the Age of Legends.
You can also get memories via Old Blood - Mat had at least one very distinct memory of a battle before he went to Rhuidean. Semirhage also claimed that people from the Age of Legends, before the taint, had past life memories.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Yes, but the point Spidy seemed to stress is that such Blood memories don't go back all that far: a few thousand years at most. Mat's memories seemed to come from the Trolloc Wars, and there's no indication that I know of that the things Graendal dealt with came from the First Age. So it is possible that all recollections of that kind are Age limited.

[Weird Harold]

Yes, but the point Spidy seemed to stress is that such Blood memories don't go back all that far: a few thousand years at most. Mat's memories seemed to come from the Trolloc Wars, and there's no indication that I know of that the things Graendal dealt with came from the First Age. So it is possible that all recollections of that kind are Age limited.
Old Blood memories are not necessarily Age limited, it's just that the close you are to the origin, the stronger the memories are. The Crystal Column Memory Dredge (it digs memories out, not inserts memories into) was programmed for a certain time period and lineage -- eg Aeil blood and no further back than the drilling of the Bore; The History of Point A to Point B as experienced by your ancestors.

I don't see any particular reason to assume that the Crystal Columns couldn't be programmed (or a similar ter-angreal built) to dig up deeper "racial" memories, possibly going back a full Turning or more.

Perhaps that is how the Three Rings ter-angreal the Wise Ones visit and the Arches ter-angreal used for AS testing work; they dredge up genetic or soul memories of past Turnings to predict individual's future?

[Yuri33]

The 3-rings ter'angreal (both AS and Aiel) have nothing to do with the past. They represent possible futures. They may draw a bit from the current knowledge of the user (Egwene saw an ageless face despite not being bound by the Oath Rod), but they aren't recreating anything that has happened previously.

And I don't believe the solution to sealing the Bore is going to come from some recollection--old blood, ter'angreal-induced, or otherwise. The knowledge is going to have to come from reasoning things out.

Rand removed the Taint without dredging up memories of any kind. He may have had some philosophical input from LTT, but LTT had no memories that could have directly addressed the problem. He reasoned the solution out based on his experiences (the double wound, etc.).

The Taint was something directly created by the DO, yet it was Rand (in non-Hero form) who undid it. Despite what Fel said, I don't believe that humans (esp. Rand) cannot fix the Bore. Non-Heroes created the Bore, the means to fix it can lie with them as well.

[Weird Harold]

The 3-rings ter'angreal (both AS and Aiel) have nothing to do with the past. They represent possible futures.

What? Did someone straighten out the Wheel of Time when I wasn't looking?

The whole point of circular/cyclic time is that future and past are "only a matter of which way you're facing."

What I was suggesting is that the rings ter-angreals show possible futures by looking the "long way" around the Wheel to evaluate how that particular person's role played out the previous times the Wheel has turned to this point -- which might be why they only show possible futures rather than absolute futures like Min's viewing.

[Yuri33]

What I was suggesting is that the rings ter-angreals show possible futures by looking the "long way" around the Wheel to evaluate how that particular person's role played out the previous times the Wheel has turned to this point -- which might be why they only show possible futures rather than absolute futures like Min's viewing.

Well, it's an interesting thought, but without any real evidence. The simpler explanation doesn't involve multiple turnings of the Wheel.

[Sodas]

The future is the past, and the past is the future. If you are saying that they see the future, then you can rightly say they see the past as well. It's just a matter of perspective.

[Terez]

Then why would RJ tell fans multiple times that Min's viewings are about the future (not the past)?

[Weird Harold]

Then why would RJ tell fans multiple times that Min's viewings are about the future (not the past)?

:confused:

RJ is the source of the "future and past are only a matter of which way you're facing," line. But I haven't suggested that Min's viewing are from looking backward. I suggested The devices that show possible futures do so by looking backwards as what has happened in past Turnings because they clearly do NOT work the same as Min's Viewings or AS's Foretellings, which show absolute futures.

[Terez]

I was talking to Sodas, and addressing the blanket statement he made, silly. :p

If I don't quote or specifically address anyone then I'm almost always talking to the person that just posted.

[Yuri33]

Min's viewing can involve only possible futures as well:

tSR, The Truth of a Viewing:
She glanced over her shoulder toward the Tower, the thick white shaft dominating the city, whole and straight, yet broken as surely as if it lay in ruins. For a moment she let herself think of the images she had glimpsed, just for a moment, flickering around Gawyn's head. Gawyn kneeling at Egwene's feet with his head bowed, and Gawyn breaking Egwene's neck, first one then the other, as if either could be the future.
The things she saw were very rarely as clear in meaning as those two, and she had never before seen that fluttering back and forth, as though not even the viewing could tell which would be the true future. Worse, she had a feeling near to certainty that it was what she had done this day that had turned Gawyn toward those two possibilities.

[Terez]

Yeah, RJ said that this forked vision thing is new for Min - that one and the "other man" one are I think the only split possibility viewings.

[4Alethinos]

So Min sees two possibilities, so what? It is clearly spelled out in the text that this is the case. All other cases will come to pass as long as the Wheel survives to weave the Pattern. RJ clearly intended that any of mIn's viewings that had choices would be spelled out. Speculation to the contrary is just that, contrary.

The Rings of Rhuidean clearly have a similar concept as the Aelfinn who can see alternate futures and give advice as to what is/are the best choice(s) for accomplishing a desired future by the supplicant.

They are similar, in a way, to the Mirror Worlds, in that different future outcomes are defined by various choices in the past. The difference here is that the choices to be made will be in the future to the one experiencing the rings.

Each set of futures in the rings is possible. Moiraine suggested that she saw several different outcomes based upon her choice at the docks of Cairhien. This suggests that her free will had some impact upon the future from that point on.

I would also suggest that it was the Pattern that had her go to the rings in the first place to make sure that she made the correct decsion and that her choice was, in fact, limited to only one choice.

"The Wheel weaves, baby!"

[natural1dave]

it's been a while since i read the newer books, but the goal is to 'remake' the prison of the DO made by the Creator again, right? if this is so, my questions is if humanoids could break what was made by the Creator originally, what's to say they couldn't break it again?

So Rand finds a way to recreate the prison and traps the DO and the world rejoices. fast forward 5 thousand years when stories are lost, remade, etc. and some future strong channelers who are bored decide to bore a hole like was originally done. then it starts all over again...

this means the only way for a light victory is the death of the DO, and i'm not even sure if that is possible...

as for asking how the DO wins...great question. i mean, if turning the dragon reborn to their side hasn't generated a victory (which raises an even greater question, if the light can win w/out the DR, what's the point of him??), what the heck does it take to win?? i know you've guys thrown out the horn theory as another way for a light 'win', but i find it hard to believe in the countless turnings that the dark side hasn't had possession of the horn (the books have stated that the horn works for anyone who blows it, even dark friends).

my only viable thought right now is that if the DO gets close to victory the Creator steps in and smacks him down ala Stephen King's "The Stand" hand of god scene. what else could it be? could the light really be that lucky and have things go their way countless times?

[natural1dave]

i know i just through out there the idea that the horn works for anyone...but correct me if i'm wrong, didn't artur hawkwing sort of go through a mental checklist in his head "check lews therin, check <something else> and then he said they needed the dragon banner before they could move?

[Terez]

Here's a nice quote from RJ on the subject:

Q: Hawkwing says they follow the banner and the Dragon. Moiraine says the Heroes will follow whoever winds the Horn. Was Moiraine wrong?

RJ: *Arch look* Moiraine doesn't know everything. She was speaking the truth as she knows it. (I took this to imply that Moiraine was misinformed, and the conflict resolved, until he continued.) However, she is correct in that whoever sounds the horn "controls the Heroes." [exact quote] (I started to get confused at this point. Is Moiraine right or is she wrong? What's he trying to tell me?)

Q: "Then what happens if the Dragon and the banner are on opposite sides of the conflict from whoever sounds the Horn?"

RJ: "Then we get a [rift] in the Pattern." I'm not certain if this is the exact word he used. It may have been "schism" or "breach," but it was definitely a word expressing the concept of a forced opening/rupture.

[Terez]

it's been a while since i read the newer books, but the goal is to 'remake' the prison of the DO made by the Creator again, right? if this is so, my questions is if humanoids could break what was made by the Creator originally, what's to say they couldn't break it again?
I don't think that anyone tried to say that the Bore would never be drilled again. It's certain to happen at least once in every Turning of the Wheel.

So Rand finds a way to recreate the prison and traps the DO and the world rejoices. fast forward 5 thousand years when stories are lost, remade, etc. and some future strong channelers who are bored decide to bore a hole like was originally done. then it starts all over again...

this means the only way for a light victory is the death of the DO, and i'm not even sure if that is possible...
I don't follow your logic. Victory for the Light can mean many things, and keeping the Dark One from escaping his prison heads the list. He's never done that, so every time they keep him from doing it, that's a victory.

my only viable thought right now is that if the DO gets close to victory the Creator steps in and smacks him down ala Stephen King's "The Stand" hand of god scene. what else could it be? could the light really be that lucky and have things go their way countless times?
RJ has verified that the Creator does NOT interfere.

[natural1dave]

I don't follow your logic. Victory for the Light can mean many things, and keeping the Dark One from escaping his prison heads the list. He's never done that, so every time they keep him from doing it, that's a victory.


i'm talking absolute victory. is it really a victory if the DO still has a chance at future escape? it's more like just pushing things back really.

so my question is if bore can be re-drilled is there a way for an absolute ding dong the dark one is dead victory? or will the light always be trying to stave off defeat?

[Terez]

i'm talking absolute victory. Who says there is any such thing?

is it really a victory if the DO still has a chance at future escape? it's more like just pushing things back really. Well, that's just how the Wheel works. The Dark One's presence is necessary to keep the Pattern in balance, and yes, that includes the occasional threats of escape.

so my question is if bore can be re-drilled is there a way for an absolute ding dong the dark one is dead victory? or will the light always be trying to stave off defeat? The Light will always be trying to stave off defeat, except in those Ages where he is sealed up. RJ has said that there is nothing special about this turning of the Wheel:

Macron Interview Memorial Weekend 2001 (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Macron_Inteview_Memorial_Weekend_2001)


Q: At one point in the story we see Ishamael talking to Rand, and telling him that they have fought countless times in the past, but this is the final time. Is there anything about his age that makes it special?


RJ: No… every Age is repeated, there is nothing that makes this age any different from any other turnings of the Wheel. The Wheel is endless.

[4Alethinos]

However, RJ also indicated that small changes accumulated from cycle to cycle.

I see the Wheel of time not as a racetrack that is retraced in every element, but a corkscrew that maintains a great deal of the previous cycle but has some changes in it from the last one and the next will include some from the present one.

A case in point is the geological changes brought about by the Breaking. I serioulsy doubt that those changes will be reversed by the time the next cycle rolls arouund. There will be other geological changes that will accumulate from cycle to cycle. There will be other changes such as souls that are destroyed by becoming Gray men. They will be replaced by new souls that reside in the soul pool. What about the twisted souls of Trollocs? Will they be spun out again as Trollocs in the next cycle or will they be fresh souls that are to be bent and distorted by such a conjointing. Will it always be the same soul who makes Trollocs and the like or will be another.

RJ even suggested that a female could be a Dragon and Dragon Reborn in another cycle. How radical is that?

"Cycles are not repeats down to the fingerprints." ;)

[Terez]

However, RJ also indicated that small changes accumulated from cycle to cycle.
Accumulated? He didn't imply any accumulation as far as I know - just variations of small details. Time is so strictly circular that suns don't do supernova in his world - the Wheel is endless.

RJ even suggested that a female could be a Dragon and Dragon Reborn in another cycle. How radical is that?
Not very. A fan asked what would happen if the Wheel needed a female champion, and RJ said there's a female Hero who was seen at Falme who would be used in the case that the Wheel needed such a thing. What's so radical about that?

[Weird Harold]

i'm talking absolute victory. is it really a victory if the DO still has a chance at future escape? it's more like just pushing things back really.

so my question is if bore can be re-drilled is there a way for an absolute ding dong the dark one is dead victory? or will the light always be trying to stave off defeat?
Think of the DO as an immortal convict serving "life with the possibility of parole" and Rand as the governer who has the final word on the DO's once-a-turning parole hearing (T'G.)

The forces of light don't have to win a "an absolute ding dong the dark one is dead victory" because their mission is the preservation of the Wheel of Time and as long as the continues to serve His endless sentence, they accomplish their mission.

I suspect that actually killing the DO would actually be a "defeat" for the Light because He is required for the Wheel of Time to continue to exist and the LIght would have failed in the mission to preserve the Wheel.

[Neilbert]

I suspect that actually killing the DO would actually be a "defeat" for the Light because He is required for the Wheel of Time to continue to exist and the LIght would have failed in the mission to preserve the Wheel.

Killing the Dark One would be a defeat for the Light because the amount of balefire it would take to kill the guy would have the side affect of destroying the Pattern. There might be some other way to do it, but the only way of harming the Dark One that RJ has confirmed is balefire.

so my question is if bore can be re-drilled is there a way for an absolute ding dong the dark one is dead victory? or will the light always be trying to stave off defeat?

Killing the Dark One is possible, but you would need a gun so large the backblast would destroy the world, so it's probably not worth it.

There will be other changes such as souls that are destroyed by becoming Gray men.

Since when are souls destroyed to
make grey men? What is there at all to suggest that souls are anything but immortal?

[The Seeker]

Gray men dont have souls

Crossroads of Twilight book tour 20 January 2003 - Dayton, OH

Q: How can Gray Men make decisions without a soul?
RJ: A soul and a brain are two very different things.


This shows that they dont have a soul.


USAToday Chat - 5 January 2004

RJ: Oh, if the Dark One puts him in a new body, it is for all intents and purposes the same person, with a new body. It is a shift of an entire person. The concept here, with the exception of the Gray Men: You've seen an Ogier who lost his soul. And in effect there's nobody home anymore. It is a body that lives and breathes, and will move if it is helped along. But it does not, there's nobody home in there. The Gray Men are slightly different. But they also have given up their souls. They've given up their souls in a way. Already, their souls are gone. But it's happened in a way that protects them against this emptiness, as if they're severed from the physical and spiritual side. And the spiritual side is gone, but the physical side remains so there is an intellect in that body, but no soul. And that's why they are Gray Men. Your eyes slip past them, the perfect assassins. You can look right at one and look on, never having realized you saw somebody there. So there's, when a soul ... (break in audio file)


This shows they originally had a soul but gave it up. What happened to it if it was not destroyed.

[Neilbert]

This shows they originally had a soul but gave it up. What happened to it if it was not destroyed.

The same exact thing that happens to every other soul that is "gone".

[Terez]

Death in the afterlife of Heroes and wolves, in Tel'aran'rhiod, is a permanent death. Birgitte and Hopper have confirmed it.

Also, RJ said that when the Dark One makes a Gray Man, he "eats" the soul, so that sounds permanent. Also, the Draghkar "eat" the soul.

[natural1dave]

Who says there is any such thing? (absolute victory)





but there is an absolute victory scenario for the dark side, right? if it cannot exist for the light, how can it for the dark?

i don't think this was answered by anyone...but does anyone find it hard to believe that after countless ages the DO has never managed to escape? seems to me that odds are things would eventually go the DO's way. given this, maybe the DO can't win either (he just doesn't know it).

[Neilbert]

Also, RJ said that when the Dark One makes a Gray Man, he "eats" the soul, so that sounds permanent.

He said that was a convenient fiction.

[Weird Harold]

He said that was a convenient fiction.
Since you abviously know the quote, why don't you finish that sentence?

He said it's a convenient fiction, but the soul is GONE FOREVER.

Perhaps Terez knows where to find the actual quote?

[Terez]

Thanks WH...you just made me realized I forgot to copy/paste Thus Spake's "The Shadow" category into my own "The Shadow" category...I did their "Black Ajah" category and then just left off the other. HUGE mistake, oops. :D


Q: In The Great Hunt, you showed us Trayal, the Ogier without a soul. And he could still walk. Barely, but he could still walk. So, the body retains some skill without the soul. How.. how's that.. divided?
RJ: Think of it as.. ah, as what is autonomic, nervous-system really, autonomic nerve reflexes. You still breathe, you still move, but I would not... I would not ask him to play the flute.
Q: Language skills?
RJ: Ehm.. no.
Q: Absolutely nothing at all?
RJ: Absolutely nothing. Unless it's done in the form of a Gray Man. Which is a voluntary ahh.. rejection of your own soul. In that case, there are other skills, higher function. That's a matter of making a deal with the Dark One, and there are other prices to be paid from that.

Q: What happens to the soul of someone when he becomes a Gray Man? Is his thread removed from the Pattern, or are threads and souls different things altogether?
RJ: Err, they are... Oh, uhm, no, it is gone. It is gone. And it ceases to exist in any form that you could think of as real.
Q:So threads and souls are the same thing?
RJ: Err, not the same thing, but they must coexist. The thread can be removed; you die in this world. You die and the soul remains to come again and begin another thread. The soul disappears from this Gray Man, it's gone. Think of the Dark One as having eaten it. It's a fiction, but a convenient fiction for the moment. The thread of the Gray Man remains until the Gray Man dies, physically.
I also forgot to mention Machin Shin - it eats souls too.

[Yuri33]

Killing the Dark One would be a defeat for the Light because the amount of balefire it would take to kill the guy would have the side affect of destroying the Pattern. There might be some other way to do it, but the only way of harming the Dark One that RJ has confirmed is balefire.
...
Killing the Dark One is possible, but you would need a gun so large the backblast would destroy the world, so it's probably not worth it.

I'm not aware of any confirmation by RJ of a way to hurt the DO, let alone kill him. There is no such thing as "hurting" or "killing" the DO. The DO is not a regular being, just like the Creator is not a regular being. The concept of Life and Death as applied to the DO makes no sense. The only concept applicable to the status of the DO is Imprisoned or Free.

but there is an absolute victory scenario for the dark side, right? if it cannot exist for the light, how can it for the dark?

I don't have access to the books right now, but there is a quote that talks about the Wheel simply being one "flower" in his garden, to wither or blossom as it may on its own. The Creator him\herself moves on to create other "flowers," and doesn't look back.

i don't think this was answered by anyone...but does anyone find it hard to believe that after countless ages the DO has never managed to escape? seems to me that odds are things would eventually go the DO's way. given this, maybe the DO can't win either (he just doesn't know it).

Well, the entire raison d'etre for the Wheel was to imprison the DO, and it was obviously designed well. But the endless cycle metaphysics that RJ created necessarily takes away from the tension\drama in his fiction. He obviously did that for a reason. It's already been hinted by the conversations between Rand and Herid Fel that the concept of cyclical time--endless revolutions with common and largely inevitable turning points--will contribute to the solution that Rand will find to reseal the Bore like it never existed.

[Terez]

I'm not aware of any confirmation by RJ of a way to hurt the DO, let alone kill him. There is no such thing as "hurting" or "killing" the DO. The DO is not a regular being, just like the Creator is not a regular being. The concept of Life and Death as applied to the DO makes no sense. The only concept applicable to the status of the DO is Imprisoned or Free. This is what Anubis was talking about:

Wotmania Quote Collection (http://www.wotmania.com/faqtopic.asp?ID=58)

Q: Why doesn't somebody just balefire the Dark One?
RJ: The quantity necessary would destroy the world.
This definitely implies that it's possible to destroy the Dark One - just not feasible.

I don't have access to the books right now, but there is a quote that talks about the Wheel simply being one "flower" in his garden, to wither or blossom as it may on its own. The Creator him\herself moves on to create other "flowers," and doesn't look back. Well, this is just Rand's thoughts on the subject, so it's not really a confirmation of how things work unless you think Rand is also remembering stuff only a dead Hero should know. But here's the quote:

TITLE - Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 24 - The Strengthening Storm

Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

For an instant, he thought those must have been Lews Therin’s reflections. He had never gone on that way about the Creator or anything else that he recalled. But he could feel Lews Therin nodding in approval, a man listening to someone else. Still, it was not the kind of thing he would have considered before Lews Therin. How much space remained between them?

[Yuri33]

This definitely implies that it's possible to destroy the Dark One - just not feasible.

I guess the appropriate follow up to that question would have been "and where would I aim my balefire at if I didn't care about destroying the world?" :)

I could almost believe this was just a quick "cop out" answer that RJ threw out to someone at a book signing, rather than a well thought out one that fits with the rest of his metaphysical framework. Does the DO have a thread?

Well, this is just Rand's thoughts on the subject, so it's not really a confirmation of how things work unless you think Rand is also remembering stuff only a dead Hero should know.

Well, it "sounds" right :), and it would be kind of a pointless red herring for RJ to include the sentiment if he wasn't trying to speak to the reader in that instance.

[Terez]

Sure...I was just pointing out that it was a philosophical observation rather than the Word of the Creator. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

I guess the appropriate follow up to that question would have been "and where would I aim my balefire at if I didn't care about destroying the world?"
You aim at the middle finger of the Dark One's left hand, when he appears in the flesh during Tarmon Gai'don.
Wasn't that obvious all along?

[Seeker]

I still think the solution is to eliminate the dark one completely, thereby ending the cycle of turnings.

Since you're all going to ask: to kill the dark one, you annihilate him with his opposite: the true source. By destroying both the dark one [excessive chaos] and the true source [wheel of time = excessive predetermination], the wheel of time is halted and time moves forward linearly.

[Anaiya Sedai]

that actually makes sense to me.
not sure how likely it is though..

[Terez]

Yay for posters that don't actually read threads! :rolleyes:

[4Alethinos]

No one or no thing can destroy the DO. That concept has never arisen in the books to my knowledge. It has only been mentioned by people who have yet to get what RJ has said on the topic. The feeble attempts to wordsmith RJ's words is oft amusing and goes on to pathetic. Just my opinion, of course. :p

Yuri, you had such a good comment about the impact of Herid Fel's discussions with Rand and then followed it up with a very bad one. Oh well, as RAH used to say, "Consistnecy is for robots and ants."

RJ said as clearly as English allows, the DO cannot be destroyed. Why would anyone use balefire to destroy the entire universe of the Wheel of time to do that? Wow, talk about pyrhhic victories. :eek:

No the DO does not have a thread. He is outside the Pattern. RJ has said that a number of times and it should be obvious to the most casual visitor here that this is what he has said on this topic. Fain does not have a thread. He too is outside the Pattern. No others need apply.

Yes, any soul's death in TAR is final. That would be true if you sent a soul eater into the soul pool and let him devour a few million or so. They would be dead dead and incapable of being restored. Ever. Hence wolves and Heroes that die in TAR are dead dead. RJ is totally consistent about this. A live person who dies while in TAR will be capable of being reincarnated.

"Oh what fun it is to ride in a one horse open slay." :eek:

[Terez]

RJ said as clearly as English allows, the DO cannot be destroyed. That's not what RJ said, though - he said that no one has balefired the Dark One because the quantity necessary would destroy the world. So, that means that no one will destroy the Dark One, but it doens't mean he can't be destroyed.

No the DO does not have a thread. He is outside the Pattern. RJ has said that a number of times and it should be obvious to the most casual visitor here that this is what he has said on this topic. Balefire can destroy things that don't have threads. Inanimate objects, for example, don't have threads, but they can be destroyed by balefire. The added effect of balefire, that it erases the actions of what it destroys back however far the strength of the balefire allows, only applies to targets possessing threads.

Fain does not have a thread. He too is outside the Pattern. No others need apply. RJ one has ever said that Fain does not have a thread. All RJ said on that is that Fain "in some ways" has sidestepped the Pattern. "In some ways" means "not in all ways", so obviously he's still a part of the Pattern to an extent. :)

Yes, any soul's death in TAR is final. Well, it is if you're dead already (a Hero or a wolf). As for those that are alive and in Tel'aran'rhiod, we don't have any reason to think that death is permanent, unless you count that Hopper thought it would be so for Perrin (Hopper thinks a lot of things that aren't true).

[GonzoTheGreat]

No one or no thing can destroy the DO. That concept has never arisen in the books to my knowledge.
RAFO!
TSR, Chapter 9, Decisions

Her voice dropped to a whisper, equal parts eagerness and fear. "Two great sa'angreal were made just before the end, one that you can use, one that I can. Far greater than that sword. Their power is beyond imagining. With those, we could challenge even... the Great Lord himself. Even the Creator!"

[Terez]

One of the greatest things about putting together the interview database is seeing all the times RJ said RAFO to someone about something he had already made clear in the books (he's said that RAFO sometimes simply means that it's already in the books). He also did it sometimes when he had already answered the question in public somewhere, because he got tired of being asked the same questions over and over again presumably. :) He often began an answer with "I've said this in public before, but..." or something similar, and there are some older reports that have him saying the same thing 3 or 4 times, and newer reports where he said RAFO to the same questions. :D

[Yuri33]

Yuri, you had such a good comment about the impact of Herid Fel's discussions with Rand and then followed it up with a very bad one. Oh well, as RAH used to say, "Consistnecy is for robots and ants."

I'm not sure I understand where you think I fell off the tracks:

RJ said as clearly as English allows, the DO cannot be destroyed. Why would anyone use balefire to destroy the entire universe of the Wheel of time to do that? Wow, talk about pyrhhic victories.

As Terez mentioned, he implied the DO could be destroyed with his balefire comment, but I immediately followed that up with my "cop out" comment. I don't think he truly believed the DO could be destroyed, I just think he threw out a (not very well thought out) explanation to a rather random (and pointless) question about balefiring the DO.

No the DO does not have a thread.

My question was rhetorical. Of course the DO doesn't have a thread, which is part of the reason why I think the balefire question was absurd.

Gonzo, I'm not sure if you were being serious, but the claim of challenging the DO and\or Creator was made by a rather egomaniacal individual. I'm not sure we can put much stock in her assertion. Even more so now, since the female CK is gone. :)

[Anaiya Sedai]

Yay for posters that don't actually read threads! :rolleyes:

me? gah, I do read.. I'm just to lazy to take it all in. or quote stuff. :D

[Terez]

Well, I was mostly talking about Seeker, who went off in a direction already quashed in the thread with RJ quotes...but then you followed him. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

Oh, I don't think I would want to have to bet my life on the accuracy of Mierin's words. But that was not the point here. All that mattered was showing that the issue had indeed been raised in the books.

[Sodas]

Then why would RJ tell fans multiple times that Min's viewings are about the future (not the past)?
Min does not view the entire pattern. Her visions are of a single person's destiny. It's more like she reads a person's current thread before it's been woven.

How this compares to the Wheel of Time, I have no idea... :confused:

[Realnow]

I completely agree, Yuri, that it is the sealing of the Bore that matters the most. I still have no clue how it is to be done.

I only have a few educated guesses as to how it was made in the first place. It had to involve moving the spatial coordinates that are a part of the Pattern to allow access to the Prison of the DO. Other than that, I am not really sure how the coordinates can be restored. It has obviously been accomplished, but how is the question.

"Where do I find a can of tire patch that I can blow at the Pattern?"

Are you sure that as a non-channelling denizen of our world that you could ever know how it was made? I don't think anyone is really qualified to talk of the actual physical way the Bore was sealed; as it is not a real thing there is no way to ever know.

I don't get how you say it "has" to invole "spatial coordinates" and the like. Can you provide any research to back up any of this?

Just sorta seems like your assuming way too much about this in general.

[Terez]

4A does that a lot. :D

[4Alethinos]

Bah! Go your ways children and leave the metaphysics to the adults. :)

I can speculate all I please with regard to the information given in the series and the BWB. As is oft said, "That is what we do here."

RJ has not written a series that cannot be understood. He understood it enough to write about it and it is the product of a human mind. That is all I need to believe that I can ratiocinate all I please about the stuff I read and attempt to understand the thoughts of the author. So there.

It is obvious that the Pattern contains spatial coordinates of the things and people that are in it. It is more than just a weave of lives as it must include where they are located and the forces availabe and the people nearby to be used to shape the weaving and potential influences upon the life and lives being woven.

It is one of my basic assumptions that the Bore in the Pattern was not destructive to any person. The only destruction happened at the breakthrough of the DO and not just by boring through the Pattern. That is why I have consistently said the the Bore had to involve moving aside spatial coordinates to reach the dimension/space in which the DO's prison is contained.

We speak at great length about how the OP works and can be worked by the two sides of the occasion, yet you see fit to say that I cannot understand what a mere man wriote? Sorry, but I totally disagree since it is evident that RJ was sane when he wrote his books. RJ intended his works to be perspicaceous. You can look up the big words, as that is OK.

You can disagree with my assumptions, but do not have the temerity to say that I cannot understand. That is just insulting.

As for you, Terez, I always appreciate your little insights into my character. hehe

"One must endeavor to persevere in face of opposition." :D

[Realnow]

I wasn't saying that you couldn't understand the physics and concepts behind what you said. Just that since this is a totally different universe than our own that you can't assume that the physics are going to be handled in the same way.

For instance, our time passes linearly, in WoT it is an entirely different system of time-flow. How can you logically deduce spatial physics from a made-up world with fantastical and magical elements. Why would our own physics theories apply in this vastly altered reality?

[Terez]

Well, everything we've seen seems to work in pretty much the same way, as far as physics goes, with the exception of suns not going nova, and other mystical elements.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Well, there are a few other details that can get sort of tricky. Such as those nifty steam engines which won't work because thermodynamics doesn't work. Life not being able to exist, because now and then photosynthesis doesn't provide energy, which would finish off plants and then animals. The tides suddenly doing odd things (I can't figure out what the effect would be, precisely) because they start transferring rotational energy from the moons towards the planets instead of in the other direction.

To be honest, tossing out lineair time will complicate a lot of things. Still, I do admit that RJ managed to write a good story while ignoring those problems entirely.

[4Alethinos]

It is evident that the WoT universe violates the laws of thermodynamics in a number of cases. For instance, the OP will never run out even though it is finite in amount. It is evident that the unverse is not subject to ultimate entropy and will not suffer the heat death since that would free the DO. Yet, it has been indicated that the DO cannot gain freedom by waiting a really long time.

On the ground when the OP is not used you cannot make a perpetual motion machine. Though there are indications that some weaves can weaken, yet, power wrought swords will never fail. Go figure.

Steam engins will work as they do here and people will have to learn steam chemistries as they do here. This assumes the absence of the OP.

RJ was a physicist by his training at the Citadel and was very aware of what the implications of what he was writing meant from a physics standpoint. I can even get a lot of it just as an EE major.

RJ developed a logical system for the use of the OP and, as such, it is understandable.

Did RJ envision a bunch of picky fanatics like us to pick at every single detail of his thinking and the possible logical fallacies or inconsistencies that can and do occur with the human mind? I really doubt it. I am, however, absolutely amazed at the consistency and small fallacies that he did make. It is a work of genius. I suspect that he was amazed and very likey amused at the depth of critical thinking going on about his fantasy series by the likes of us.

John Ringo has a hilarious criticism of RJ in his book "The Princess of Wands" in the next to last story in the book. It is really amusing.

So I reject the idea that we as readers cannot understand what RJ had in mind. We have gotten it wrong from time to time and that is ok too.

The hall of sighs:

Two souls
Taimandred
The Black cords and what they meant
Fain killed Asmo
Sammael survived

And many more that I do not recall at this moment, but it is a long list.

OTOH, there are many theories that were proven to be correct before the truth was revealed by RJ. Overall the record at TL is not too bad, at all, IMO.

"Let the good times roll forever on. Like the Road." :)

[Realnow]

It is obvious that the Pattern contains spatial coordinates of the things and people that are in it. It is more than just a weave of lives as it must include where they are located and the forces availabe and the people nearby to be used to shape the weaving and potential influences upon the life and lives being woven.

Still, even attempting to put together a realistic scientific analysis would never result in an "obvious" answer when its simply conjecture about magic.

Using words like "must" and "obvious" really lends an overly-mathematical bent to this. Its not math, its magic, and anything "could" happen. So you can't "assume" it must work a certain way is all I'm saying.

Are you that sure that the pattern isn't slightly more complex and abstract then simply coordinates?

[4Alethinos]

Are you that sure that the pattern isn't slightly more complex and abstract then simply coordinates?

Yes, the Pattern is very complex. I did not intend to mean that it was only spatial coordinates. That it does contains such is evident by both male and female methods for traveling by gates. Neither of these methods or skimming have any impact on soul threads in the Pattern, whatsoever.

I said this because I had sensed that some here had limited the Pattern to just weaves of souls that I stated this point to add to the genuine complexity of the weave of the Pattern. One cannot say that the way in which the Pattern made the moat around the DO's prison was made up of woven souls alone. That is hardly a rational idea. It had to be because the Pattern contained the coordinates of the other dimensions and worlds and even TAR that formed an extra-dimensional barrier to the prison in which the DO was trapped. This is why I made the statement that no souls were disturbed by the Bore any more than souls are disturbed by the use of Gateways.

It is this complexity that gives rationale for the fact that the Bore is actually everywhere and is just more sensed at Shayol Ghul where the Bore was originally made.

The battle is to close the Bore and remove its presence from the entirety of the Pattern and all other dimensions and worlds.

"Not everything is simple." :)

[Crispin's Crispian]

Or we could look at the Pattern as a metaphor rather than something quasi-tangible or metaphysical.

That's less fun, though.

[4Alethinos]

Crispy, I could not agree with you more on that one. hehe.

I am wondering if the Bore in the Pattern is similar to the way a man using Saidin makes a gate is the reason why it is a man who must seal it up again? Perhaps it just takes the idea of unravelling a weave only from a saidin standpoint that will resolve the issue. We know that unravelling weaves is possible. Hmmm.

A man travels by making a hole in the Pattern to a new location. A woman brings two separate places together to make a gate. Saidar is not used to make a bore through the Pattern, IIRC.

"More grist, more grist. I am grinding away." :eek:

[The Immortal One]

For instance, the OP will never run out even though it is finite in amount

And yet water hasn't run out on Earth yet, but there is only a finite amount of that too.

And as far as I know there isn't any proof that the One Power is finite.

[Terez]

And as far as I know there isn't any proof that the One Power is finite. We only know because there was a big faction-forming row about it here, so Jason Wolfbrother asked RJ about it at a book signing:

Knife of Dreams tour 28 October 2005 - Jason Wolfbrother reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9895)

JWB: Is the One Power finite or infinite?
RJ: The One Power is finite but cannot be used up. When the weave is done, it returns to the Source. (The way he put is was 'finite but infinitely reusable'.)
You can follow the link to see a bit about who believed what. It seems pretty much everyone but Yaga Shura (who was the champion of the "finite" faction) believed it was infinite. :D

[4Alethinos]

Yes, the idea of more or less infinitely reusable applies to water. That will happen as long as there is enough energy for molecular bonds to work between Oygen and Hydrogen. After that, we will all be dead and very thirsty. Physically, anyway.

If the sun is burning up 40 million tons of matter per second or so, it will eventually run dry. Just not in the WoT universe

"Prepare for ultimate global cooling now! Get more government!" :rolleyes:

[Marie Curie 7]

Yes, the idea of more or less infinitely reusable applies to water. That will happen as long as there is enough energy for molecular bonds to work between Oygen and Hydrogen. After that, we will all be dead and very thirsty. Physically, anyway.

4A, the bonds between hydrogen and oxygen in water will break if there's too much energy, not if there's too little energy. If there's too little energy, all that will happen is that liquid water will turn to ice. So, I'm not sure what the hell you're talking about...

[4Alethinos]

Ah, what is the energy that holds atoms together and what is its source? Do you think electrons are eternal? Do you think that the energy packets that make up atoms are eternal or are all such energies subject to entropy death?

All molecular bonds depend upon the absence and presence of electrons and protons as I understand my admittedly distant chemistry classes. My assumption that in order to do work requires an energy shift and electrical balance. You start with hydrogen ions and oxygen ions and you wind up with water. You can get this by burning hydrogen in an oxy atmosphere. You do need the energy to start the fire if I am not mistaken. What if electrons lost all of their ability to emit a photon when bumped out of orbit by another electron? I suspect that would make for some rather interesting changes in chemical reactions, nicht wahr?

The third law of Thermodynamics indicates that there is less and less energy with which to do work. That must include molecular formulations as well as making a steam engine.

Of course this universe will not experience an entropy death in any event. let alone the WoT.

"Be careful when you stir up the Dragons of science, they are dangerous and find you crunchy and good with ketchup. I am not referring to myself here.." hehe

[GonzoTheGreat]

Do you think that the energy packets that make up atoms are eternal or are all such energies subject to entropy death?I think that you do not understand entropy. Could it be the case that you've never studied thermodynamics in depth?
What if electrons lost all of their ability to emit a photon when bumped out of orbit by another electron? I suspect that would make for some rather interesting changes in chemical reactions, nicht wahr?
Yep. Of course, it would require that the laws of physics are rather different than we now think they are. That's not impossible, but there is no evidence at all to suggest any difference in the direction you're indicating.
The third law of Thermodynamics indicates that there is less and less energy with which to do work.
Could you explain your reasoning?
To help you get started, I'll quote that law from Wikipedia:As a system approaches absolute zero, all processes cease and the entropy of the system approaches a minimum value.

Now, while that does say (in a roundabout way) that if there is less energy available, then less work can be done, it does not say that less energy will be available in some future time then there is now. Then there is the first law, which is about conservation of energy.

[Weird Harold]

I think that you do not understand entropy. Could it be the case that you've never studied thermodynamics in depth?

4A is referring to "the Heat Death of the Universe" as described in Isaac Asimov's classic short story, The Last Question. (http://www.multivax.com/last_question.html)

[GonzoTheGreat]

I'm quite sure the good old doctor understood entropy, but I am also quite sure that he simplified things a bit in that story. It's still a neat story, I admit.
Perhaps I should reread my Asimovs once again. Haven't done that in quite a while.

[4Alethinos]

1. You cannot win.
2. You cannot break even.
3. You cannot stop playing the game.

1. You cannot get more energy out of a system than you put into it.

2. You cannot get the same amount out of a system that you put into it due to losses in the system.

3. You have less and less energy with which to do work.

Look at that photon that is emitted when an electron moves from an inner shell to an outer shell or is knocked clear out of the range of the atoms nucleus. How is that energy replaced? Where do photons go to die?

My Thermo class at Cal Tech was a long time ago, but the principles are not all that hard. Why do they call it the heat death of the universe? Because the losses have made all possible reactions impossible. No movement of atoms and no temperature.

To say that my understanding is rigorous is certainly not the case. However, I know enough to get into trouble. :)

"My energy is waning as I type." :eek:

[Marie Curie 7]

Ah, what is the energy that holds atoms together and what is its source? Do you think electrons are eternal? Do you think that the energy packets that make up atoms are eternal or are all such energies subject to entropy death?

All molecular bonds depend upon the absence and presence of electrons and protons as I understand my admittedly distant chemistry classes. My assumption that in order to do work requires an energy shift and electrical balance. You start with hydrogen ions and oxygen ions and you wind up with water. You can get this by burning hydrogen in an oxy atmosphere. You do need the energy to start the fire if I am not mistaken. What if electrons lost all of their ability to emit a photon when bumped out of orbit by another electron? I suspect that would make for some rather interesting changes in chemical reactions, nicht wahr?

You weren't talking about the ability "to do work" in your previous post, at least not the thermodynamic definition of work. All you stated was that there had to be sufficient energy for "molecular bonds to work between Oygen (sic) and Hydrogen". In this statement, the use of the terminology "to work" simply means "to function" or "to exist". And my point was that the chemical bonds between the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in water break when sufficient energy is added to the system (it takes about 370 kJ/mol to break an O-H bond), not when energy is removed. Water is the more stable arrangement relative to the constituent molecular hydrogen and molecular oxygen components by about 230 kJ/mol. And relative to atomic hydrogen and oxygen, water is more stable by about 870 kJ/mol.

By the way, you of course don't have to start with hydrogen ions and oxygen ions to form water, as you suggested in your post. You can form water from molecular hydrogen and molecular oxygen, for example, which would certainly be the case in the example you gave of burning hydrogen in an oxygen environment - combustion reactions generally proceed through radical mechanisms, which in this case would involve hydrogen atoms, not hydrogen ions. Or you could form water from any number of chemical reactions, for that matter. Whether energy is required or not to initiate such a reaction has nothing to do with your previous post.

The third law of Thermodynamics indicates that there is less and less energy with which to do work. That must include molecular formulations as well as making a steam engine.

No. The Third Law of Thermodynamics states that the absolute entropy of a perfect crystalline solid approaches zero at zero degrees Kelvin. Perhaps you're thinking instead of the Second Law of Thermodynamics.

4A is referring to "the Heat Death of the Universe" as described in Isaac Asimov's classic short story, The Last Question.

Maybe he was, but he was messing it all up.

Look at that photon that is emitted when an electron moves from an inner shell to an outer shell or is knocked clear out of the range of the atoms nucleus. How is that energy replaced? Where do photons go to die?

See?

4A, a photon will not be emitted if an electron moves from an inner shell to an outer shell in an atom - that requires energy, so a photon would have to be absorbed in the process, not emitted.

[4Alethinos]

tIf you bang an electron into an Argon atom you eject an electron from one of the shells surrounding the nucleus. You get a very beautiful purple glow when this occurs. Yes it takes energy to make this happen. I was taught long ago that when an electron moved to an outer shell that a photon was emitted. I do not care where the energy came from to make that transfer. The electron does emit a photon. I have seen with Oygen, Argon, and Nitrogen in sputtering processes for coating glass. The glow for each is unigue to the gas being bombarded with electrons.

The end result is that an energy loss takes place for the electron so moved. Now I just reported on what I have seen. Perhaps you can issue a more scientific explanation and that is cool. I will not pretend that my knowledge of things scientific is on a par with yours as it is nowhere near close to yours.

"The universe will go up in flames not in ice."

[GonzoTheGreat]

I was taught long ago that when an electron moved to an outer shell that a photon was emitted.
It is possible that you were taught wrong, but I think it is more likely that you misremember.
I do not care where the energy came from to make that transfer.
It seems to me that you are ignoring the most crucial part of the argument. I will admit that ignoring that detail makes your conclusion a lot more rational, but I do not think that it is a proper approach.
Perhaps you can issue a more scientific explanation and that is cool.
I can try. Expressing quantum mechanics in words is notoriously tricky, but I think that in this case I should be able to give a fairly accurate account. It is a rather crucial area for astronomy in general, and even more so for the part of astronomy that my own university had specialised in.

The electrons in an atom are bound to the nucleus by the electromagnetic force. Because of quantum mechanical effects they can only circle that nucleus at certain distances. The closer they are, the stronger the force and thus the more energy is needed to free them from the atom. Now, for simplicity, I'll consider Hydrogen. The principle is the same for all other elements, but there we have multiple electrons, which complicates things considerably. At the end I will mention the main difference between the various atoms, though there are of course others.
The various orbits in which an electron in Hydrogen can be are numbered, from 1 to infinity. As a result of the way QM works, there is a fairly simple formula which allows us to calculate the energy needed to free an electron from each of these orbits, and that depends (apart from some constants) only on one over the square of the quantum number. Thus if the electron is in orbit 2, freeing it takes only a quarter of the energy that would be needed if it is in orbit 1. But, obviously, the electron can also go in the other direction, and when that happens the corresponding energy is released. That happens in the form of a photon, which means that we can see it (if it is in the visible range, at least). If an electron goes from orbit 2 to orbit 1, then it goes from one quarter the maximum energy to the maximum, and thus a photon with three quarters of that maximum energy is released.
Now, what happens in the cases that you described, is that electrons in those atoms are brought into higher orbits by some outside influence. (The outside influence you were ignoring.) Then the electron drops back again, releasing energy by emitting a photon.
As I said in the beginning, the only things which determine the energy levels are the quantum number and some constants. But one of those constants is the total charge of the nucleus, and that is only constant if you look at the same element. For different elements that charge is different (it is what makes them different elements, after all). And that is why there are different colors for Oxygen, Argon and Nitrogen: because the energy levels are different the resulting colors are too. Of course, things are a lot hairier than that as a result of the presence of other electrons. I've done the calculations for Hydrogen, with one electron, and there it is possible to give a truly precise prediction of which colors to expect (if you take relativity into account, which I forgot). I have also done it with Helium, which has two electrons, and then you already have to use approximations because it is no longer possible to do the maths precisely.
The glow for each is unigue to the gas being bombarded with electrons.

The end result is that an energy loss takes place for the electron so moved. Now I just reported on what I have seen.
What I tried to make clear is that what you say here is true, but it ignores the fact that that electron had also previously gotten precisely the energy it loses. It had gotten that from the bombardment, and that is why it is not justified to ignore that part of the process.

I hope my explanation was clear, but I suspect that I've failed to clarify all of the steps in one go. I know it is a tricky subject, and I would be surprised if I were indeed better at explaining it than the professor who taught me. So if you have any remaining questions, do not hesitate to ask them.

[Marie Curie 7]

If you bang an electron into an Argon atom you eject an electron from one of the shells surrounding the nucleus. You get a very beautiful purple glow when this occurs. Yes it takes energy to make this happen. I was taught long ago that when an electron moved to an outer shell that a photon was emitted. I do not care where the energy came from to make that transfer. The electron does emit a photon. I have seen with Oygen, Argon, and Nitrogen in sputtering processes for coating glass. The glow for each is unigue to the gas being bombarded with electrons.

Gonzo already explained, but maybe in a kinda verbose way. :) The problem is that you've associated the photon emission with the wrong part of this process. When you "bang" an electron into argon, the energy from the electron that's banging into the argon atom is used to promote an electron from an inner shell to an outer shell of the atom (note that there's no photon emission associated with this process). That creates a vacancy in the inner shell of the argon atom. The photon is emitted when an electron falls from an outer shell (a higher energy state) back down to that inner shell (a lower energy state).

The end result is that an energy loss takes place for the electron so moved. Now I just reported on what I have seen. Perhaps you can issue a more scientific explanation and that is cool. I will not pretend that my knowledge of things scientific is on a par with yours as it is nowhere near close to yours.

Again, essentially the same answer that Gonzo gave, but worded in a slightly different way: An electron is attracted to the nucleus of an atom through the coulomb interaction; we know that the strength of the coulomb interaction falls off with distance. An electron in an inner shell is closer on average to the nucleus than an electron in an outer shell of an atom (and in a many-electron atom, the outer shell electrons are also screened from the nucleus by the inner shell electrons). As a result, an electron in an inner shell is more strongly attracted to the nucleus than an electron in an outer shell; thus, the inner shell electron has a lower energy than an outer shell electron. If an electron makes a transition from an inner shell to an outer shell, it is moving from a lower energy state to a higher energy state, and therefore the electron must gain energy in some way - no photon will be emitted in this process. That is just the opposite of what you stated. On the other hand, a photon will be emitted if the electron undergoes a transition from an outer shell to an inner shell because it is moving from a higher energy state to a lower energy state and thus must lose energy; a photon will be emitted in that case.

[4Alethinos]

That is helpful. I had it just backwards. Oh well. However, in the cases that I have observed, the electron leaves the area of the nucleus to such an extent that you create a postively charged ion of the gas and it bangs into to a negatively charged target. It is there that the electron shell is made complete again by either picking up an electron or reacting with the substrate. It is actually a very fun process to watch.

I am curious as to why it is only a crystalline lattice that goes to absolute zero. I had rather thought that all things making nuclear meltdowns via half-lives and suns burning out that this too would result in an eventual heat death for the universe.

Consider this thread hijacked by me and Marie and Gonzo for the moment. You may return to your regularly scheduled programming at any time. :D

[GonzoTheGreat]

Temperature becomes a rather iffy concept, if densities are too low. It is basically the statistical average of the random energy available in whatever it is that you consider. But when you have only one or two particles, such statistics are pretty meaningless.
Thus, when the universe keeps expanding and everything is distributed more or less evenly over those vast distances, there won't be enough particles near to each other to make temperature a really meaningful concept. Thus, on the one hand, in the case of such a heat death the temperature could be said to go to zero, but on the other hand, it is probably more accurate to do without the concept entirely in that case.

The term "heat death" is severely misleading, at least for most people. It does not mean that everything will get very hot according to our standards, but that everything will get the same amount of energy, which will go to zero as the universe keeps expanding.

Which leaves the situations with large numbers of particles, of course. And in those cases, if you bring the temperature down far enough, just about everything will eventually crystallise into a lattice, because it doesn't have the energy to do anything else.
So only in the case of crystals does it make actual sense to talk about going to absolute zero. Of course, they can't actually get there, which is one of the main laws of thermodynamics, the Third Law (though that one is also formulated in a different way).

[Seeker]

That's how you kill the bastard.

[The Immortal One]

That's how you kill the bastard.
You'd have to think about it a bit - that could be how you release IT.

[Seeker]

You'd have to think about it a bit - that could be how you release IT.

Accuracy in this series is something of a Flying Dutchman. There are soooo many things that happen because RJ says so.

"Why can't a woman heal another woman's stilling?"

RJ: "It has to do with balance. The true source must be balanced."

"Well what the fuck does that mean? If women could heal severing in both genders and men could heal severing in both genders, the source would still be in balance. The only imbalance is if one side could heal both and the other side could not.

If women can heal any other injury in other women, why should stilling be any different?"

(Of course, no one asked him this)

Or how about,

"Rand and Moridin began to mege minds when their balefire streams collided."

What the fuck? How can balefire - which does nothing but destroy anything it touches - cause the minds of two people who use it to merge when their streams collide.

Cuz RJ says so.

RJ writes rather non-sensically, even for a fantasy author. And he retcons quite a bit.

You cleanse the taint by annihilating it with Shadar Logoth? I was on these boards back in 1998, and I can guarantee you, NO ONE saw that coming. Cuz it didn't fit with anything the magic had presented that far.

So, we really don't know WHAT is possible until RJ goes and does it. Therefore, I just INVENT plausible endings to the story that are about as plausible as collding balefire streams were back in the first book of the series.

[GonzoTheGreat]

"Why can't a woman heal another woman's stilling?"

RJ: "It has to do with balance. The true source must be balanced."

"Well what the fuck does that mean? If women could heal severing in both genders and men could heal severing in both genders, the source would still be in balance. The only imbalance is if one side could heal both and the other side could not.

Channelers touch the Source and then draw their own half (or part thereof) from it. If someone is severed, then this touching part is damaged. That could mean that there is a problem involving both saidin and saidar in whoever is so afflicted. If that is the case, then it makes sense that a woman can't fully restore the connection for another woman, because she can't cope with the saidin bits. But if a man does it, then the saidin part is handled by him, and for the saidar he can use the woman's ability while he is restoring it. The end result will then be a full restoration.
Similarly, if a man is severed, I would not expect another man to be able to fully restore him. That would require a woman, who can then deal with the saidar half of the OP.

We have evidence to support this in the case of women being helped, but with men we do not have a full data set.

If women can heal any other injury in other women, why should stilling be any different?"

Because in the case of stilling you're dealing with the OP. And remember: you can't actually heal any other injury, being burned out is still beyond any Healing whatsoever.

"Rand and Moridin began to mege minds when their balefire streams collided."

What the fuck? How can balefire - which does nothing but destroy anything it touches - cause the minds of two people who use it to merge when their streams collide.

That is so obviously a Ghostbuster reference. "Don't cross the beams."

But if you want some explanation for why strange things could happen: what happens when you balefire a balefire stream?
You turn back what that stream is doing, but at the same time it is turning back what your stream does, so that you don't turn back what the first one did after all, so that ...

Getting a bit unhinged as a result of that seems pretty normal to me.

You cleanse the taint by annihilating it with Shadar Logoth? I was on these boards back in 1998, and I can guarantee you, NO ONE saw that coming. Cuz it didn't fit with anything the magic had presented that far.

So, we really don't know WHAT is possible until RJ goes and does it. Therefore, I just INVENT plausible endings to the story that are about as plausible as collding balefire streams were back in the first book of the series.

[tworiverswoman]

Gonzo? You quoted Seeker's last bit ... and then walked away. Why bother to quote if you didn't have a comment. I was looking forward to one.


As far as the link between Rand and Moridin -- RJ has never actually SAID it was the crossing of the balefire streams that caused this to occur -- though that seems to be the obvious moment for it to take place. I NEVER considered it to be a result of crossing the streams -- it always seemed to me to be obvious that it was the contact between the two inimical powers -- the OP and the TP -- that resulted in the fluke.

Seeker, iirc, you once suggested to me that perhaps Moridin created a male/male BOND with Rand when he was lifting him from the hole. I think that was you. It might have been Ieyasu. In any case, it's a logical alternative possibility.


NO ONE saw that coming. Cuz it didn't fit with anything the magic had presented that far.

So, we really don't know WHAT is possible until RJ goes and does it. One thing about writing a fantasy novel -- and you know this well, Seeker, is that you MUST have new things as you progress in a series. If Book 12 contains the same set of events and tools as Book 1, then the audience is going to get pretty restless. EVERY SINGLE BOOK SO FAR has contained something new and untelegraphed in previous books. It's one reason I thought Callie was too limited in his speculations -- he wouldn't allow for anything that we hadn't already seen in the stories.

[Terez]

As far as the link between Rand and Moridin -- RJ has never actually SAID it was the crossing of the balefire streams that caused this to occur -- though that seems to be the obvious moment for it to take place. I NEVER considered it to be a result of crossing the streams -- it always seemed to me to be obvious that it was the contact between the two inimical powers -- the OP and the TP -- that resulted in the fluke.
Problem is, the One Power and the True Power have contacted many times before, and Ishamael/Moridin has more experience with that than anyone. Why would he take the risk? It was obviously the balefire...

Seeker, iirc, you once suggested to me that perhaps Moridin created a male/male BOND with Rand when he was lifting him from the hole. I think that was you. It might have been Ieyasu. In any case, it's a logical alternative possibility.
Except that it is nothing like the Warder bond. Don't say that the male-male thing would have changed the properties of the bond that much - Elayne and Birgitte still share all of the normal properties of the bond; there are just some extras. Rand's link with Moridin is nothing like the Warder bond...

I thought Callie was too limited in his speculations -- he wouldn't allow for anything that we hadn't already seen in the stories.
That seems to me to be a serious twisting of what Callie actually believed...

[GonzoTheGreat]

Gonzo? You quoted Seeker's last bit ... and then walked away. Why bother to quote if you didn't have a comment. I was looking forward to one.
To be honest, my reason for quoting it is that something apparently went wrong with my attempt to delete it. Oops, I did it again, and all that.
Now I'll have to think again about whether or not I can make any relevant comments. Tricky, since I've never liked RJ's solution there in the first place, and I have a tendency to reject it out of hand.

All right, let's see: was there prior evidence for using the two evils against each other?
In TEOTW, the mist eats the Trollocs that threaten the Two Riverers (awkward phrase, that), and at the same time, those yummy Trollocs distracted the mist, which otherwise might have eaten Egwene. Not a good example, I guess, since getting rid of her would have been an improvement.
In Padan Fain, the two evils are also fighting each other. On the one hand, the result makes him more dangerous, but on the other hand, the conflict makes him clumsy and therefor ineffective.

Finally, I had considered Shadar Logoth as a place to attempt the Cleansing. But I had considered using it as a fortress, where Rand and a few others holed up in the centre, and then let any attackers fight it out with Mashadar before they could even get close to threatening Rand. I definitely hadn't foreseen the method that RJ seems to have chosen, and if he returns from the dead I'll take up the argument with him once again.

[tworiverswoman]

Re-reading Seeker's phrasing: "annihilating it with Shadar Logoth" made me just stop and review that event in my head. I'm not sure that's what actually occurred.

Rand was using a combination of Saidar and Saidin to "peel" the taint from the male half, if my mental image is correct. Shadar Logoth wasn't part of the process, except as a RECEPTACLE for the yucky stuff. The fact that the resultant critical mass resulted in an implosion that completely removed both from the world was a happy fluke -- no doubt part of the Pattern from the beginning -- but I SERIOUSLY doubt anticipated by Rand.

I got the feeling that he CHOSE Shadar Logoth because it was a place he could mess with and no one would be disturbed if he made an oops. He might have imagined that the taint would fill it like oil, and since no one traveled there by choice, no one would be bothered by it. Though the long term prospects of that much taint gathered in a single place would have given me the shudders.

*****

Darn -- Seeker just said Jourdan said in an interview that Rand knew what he was going to get. Can you find that interview, Terez? :(

[Ieyasu]

Seeker, iirc, you once suggested to me that perhaps Moridin created a male/male BOND with Rand when he was lifting him from the hole. I think that was you. It might have been Ieyasu. In any case, it's a logical alternative possibility.

Wasnt me... I dont think its a male-male bond at all.

I am leaning more towards tp balefire vs op balefire rather than just balefire vs balefire or tp vs op

Problem is, the One Power and the True Power have contacted many times before, and Ishamael/Moridin has more experience with that than anyone. Why would he take the risk? It was obviously the balefire...


can you quote a single time?

It has been used in the presence of eachother, but never come in contact to my knowledge.... link a quote to support this please.

[Terez]

can you quote a single time?
I'm not talking in the books - I'm talking about the Forsaken having used it fairly extensively in the War of Power, and Ishamael having used it exclusively. There's no way it hasn't happened before. But if you want an example, then re-read the Battle of Falme - Rand's Power-infused blade met Ishamael's True Power-infused staff several times.

Seeker just said Jourdan said in an interview that Rand knew what he was going to get. Can you find that interview, Terez?
Not sure what you're talking about. But the choice of Shadar Logoth was definitely deliberate (the Aelfinn told gave him a riddle, and Fel told him it was "sound":

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 14 - Message from the M'Hael

Rand picked up Taim's missive, folded the page, and thrust it into his coat pocket. One in fifty mad already, and more to come. Was Morr next? Dashiva was surely close. Hopwil's stares took on a new meaning, and even Narishma's habitual quiet. Madness did not always mean screaming about spiders. He had asked once, warily, where he knew the answers would be true, how to cleanse the taint from saidin. And got a riddle for answer. Herid Fel had claimed the riddle stated "sound principles, in both high philosophy and natural philosophy," but he had not seen any way to apply it to the problem at hand. Had Fel been killed because he might have puzzled out the riddle? Rand had a hint at the answer, or thought he might, a guess that could be disastrously wrong. Hints and riddles were not answers, yet he had to do something. If the taint was not cleansed somehow, Tarmon Gai'don might find a world already ruined by madmen. What had to be done, had to be done.
The Shadar Logoth bit was the only bit Rand had to puzzle out on his own - the rest was easy. ;)
Netherlands tour April 2001, Leiden - Aan'allein reporting (http://home.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/Leiden.html)

Emma: Can you give some more details on how the taint was cleansed? I was sort of confused reading the book.
RJ: You don't think it's obvious?
Err, let's see. You have.. You're using both repulsion and attraction of opposites here. Repulsion of things that are opposite and repulsion of things that are the same. The Taint upon [saidin] as versus the conduit, which is made of saidar through which the saidin passes. The saidin and saidar, as men and women, are in many ways opposite. It repels one another. It is safe to make this conduit of saidar between saidin and Shadar Logoth, because there can be no mixing. As the eh.. as [saidin] passes through, as the taint passes through, the saidar actually repels it, pushes it away from [saidin]..., alright? Now, you have a taint on... the eh Source, the male half of the Source, you have the taint on Shadar Logoth. They're not the same, yet they are. The taint on Shadar Logoth did not come from the Dark One. The taint was created by humans, who believed that they must do whatever was necessary, anything that was necessary to defeat the Shadow. And because they would accept no limits to what they would do, to what could be done, to what needed to be done, they created their own destruction. Their evil is, or was, as great as that of the Dark One, but diametrically opposite. It is an evil created for the best of intentions, created for good intentions. So it is the opposite. So, this attraction created the conduit begins to pull the taint from [saidin] to siphon it off. Remember, it's always been described it's not at mixed all through [saidin], it is like a thin skin of rancidness, think of a thin skin of rancid oil floating on a pond, and if you get through it, you've got clean water, but you can't get through it without putting your hand in that oil. You're getting it on your hand... To attract one another because they are opposites, but because even being opposite, they have gone far enough around the circle, they act to destroy one another. You see, it's not opposites along a straight line. We're actually talking opposites along a circle. Continuing the motif of the Wheel of Time, if you will. So you've got two things that are both opposites and the same.That will both attract one another and negate one another.
Do you understand better now?
Emma: Yes, thank you.
RJ: Oh, and one last point: It's all imaginary my dear...
Love the last bit. :D

[Ieyasu]

I'm not talking in the books - I'm talking about the Forsaken having used it fairly extensively in the War of Power, and Ishamael having used it exclusively. There's no way it hasn't happened before. But if you want an example, then re-read the Battle of Falme - Rand's Power-infused blade met Ishamael's True Power-infused staff several times.


reread the battle of falme... i have no reason to believe it is a tp staff anymore than belal's sword was a tp sword... seems like a op staff to me.

concerning rand's sword... it was wrought with the op... that doesnt mean it continues to channel the op.. even if for some reason the staff was wrought the same way, using the tp.. that is still not the same as crossing two live streams of differing power sources... they are inanimate objects that were created using a powersource (whether tp or op is irrelevant), not two active weaves crossing.

if you want to say they are weaves touching... youd have to prove they were channeled swords like rand vs belal's battle... even then it was op vs op.

again, with supposition into the war of power, can you quote a single instance (beyond the op balefire vs tp balefire incident) where the tp has come in contact with the op? its easy to say you are sure it has happened before... but can you prove it?

[Terez]

reread the battle of falme... i have no reason to believe it is a tp staff anymore than belal's sword was a tp sword... seems like a op staff to me.
Except that Ishamael uses the True Power exclusively.

concerning rand's sword... it was wrought with the op... that doesnt mean it continues to channel the op.
I know this. Re-read the scene, and you'll see what I'm talking about. ;)

You can go on an on about how "I can't prove it", but the notion that it's never happened before, even that it didn't happen frequently when the True Power was being used, stretches credulity. The Powers would touch every time someone tried to fend off a shield, for instance. Every time a weave is sliced. Believe what you want, but it's obvious that the One Power touching the True Power won't cause what happened to Rand and Moridin.

[Ieyasu]

Except that Ishamael uses the True Power exclusively.

Not exclusively. Rand felt many things during his numerous battles with him. Things he would not have felt had it been the tp exclusively.


I know this. Re-read the scene, and you'll see what I'm talking about. ;)

You can go on an on about how "I can't prove it", but the notion that it's never happened before, even that it didn't happen frequently when the True Power was being used, stretches credulity. The Powers would touch every time someone tried to fend off a shield, for instance. Every time a weave is sliced. Believe what you want, but it's obvious that the One Power touching the True Power won't cause what happened to Rand and Moridin.

There are numerous quotes that show the tp has never been used much, and that Moridin uses it far more than any others... and even they think in pov how unwise it is, and that he is using it far more NOW than in the past. (and a madman to use it such)

There is nothing to suggest it was ever used as openly as you suppose.

There is no evidence that it was ever used in a direct confrontation before ishy vs rand, and even then, ishy didnt use it exclusively, and no weaves touched prior to the balefire incident.

I do not know what would happen should a tp weave touch a op weave, nor am i suggesting this is the result of solely that factor. I personally think its the fact that they were both the same weave (balefire vs balefire) and op vs tp. I do not think this would occur if op balefire crossed with another op balefire weave.

There is no evidence that tp was ever used widely in direct confrontations, and most of ishy's battles used op, not tp. it hasnt been until he was transmitigated that he started leaning so heavily on the tp (to the point of being able to claim exclusive use, and even then, i do not think he uses tp exclusively...merely that he hass exclusive permission to use it)

[Terez]

Not exclusively. Rand felt many things during his numerous battles with him. Things he would not have felt had it been the tp exclusively.
Such as what? I can only think of one instance, where he followed Ishamael's gateway in the Stone, and we've debated this many times here - a lot of people think that Rand felt the twisting of the Pattern, rather than the weave.

There are numerous quotes that show the tp has never been used much, and that Moridin uses it far more than any others... and even they think in pov how unwise it is, and that he is using it far more NOW than in the past. (and a madman to use it such)
He's using it more than any other Forsaken has, surely. But there were a lot more Forsaken back in the Age of Legends, and it was probably used extensively by several of them before its dangers were discovered.

[Ieyasu]

One of the reasons Moridin was using tp was to avoid detection (see: sammael and greandal)... which got me thinking...

Are men capable of inverting weaves and masking the sense of them channeling as women can?

Theoretically, anything done by one half can be done by the other, but its odd that you dont see too much of it done by men (beyond rand's inverted traps... and i suppose the inverted boxes of sammy... and the inverted detection grid of rhavin... nm guess men do use inverted weaves that dont require maintaining... but still, we have never seen a man invert his active weaves like lanfear does several times in battle and leane did while working on the chain... nor mask holding the power)

[Terez]

One of the reasons Moridin was using tp was to avoid detection (see: sammael and greandal)... which got me thinking...

Are men capable of inverting weaves and masking the sense of them channeling as women can?
Yes - we've seen Rand invert his weaves (one of the first thing Asmodean taught him) and we've seen Demandred use "reversed" weaves (at the Cleansing), which seems to be an active inversion, rather than an inversion after the fact.

I don't think Moridin was using the True Power to hide from Sammael and Graendal - I think he was just using it cause he always uses it.

Men don't have to hide the ability to channel, since they can't sense the ability in each other. But there's no reason to think that they can't hide it when they're actually holding the Power.

[Ieyasu]

Such as what? I can only think of one instance, where he followed Ishamael's gateway in the Stone, and we've debated this many times here - a lot of people think that Rand felt the twisting of the Pattern, rather than the weave.

A lot of ppl used to think that the world was flat... A lot of ppl are wrong. Popularity of a believe does not lend creditability to it.

Thinking about it, Ishy hasnt channeled much at Rand during confrontations. Usually they fight with conventional means. Other than the gateway to TAR, there isnt much channeling of either power (from ishy) going on... and the combat in TAR doesnt necessitate channeling at all, just TAR knowledge.


He's using it more than any other Forsaken has, surely. But there were a lot more Forsaken back in the Age of Legends, and it was probably used extensively by several of them before its dangers were discovered.

notice the bolded word here... probably... a supposition.

Since this is a supposition you are proposing, i ask that you back it up with any proof at all. Do you have anything more than your belief?

[Ieyasu]

Yes - we've seen Rand invert his weaves (one of the first thing Asmodean taught him) and we've seen Demandred use "reversed" weaves (at the Cleansing), which seems to be an active inversion, rather than an inversion after the fact.

I don't think Moridin was using the True Power to hide from Sammael and Graendal - I think he was just using it cause he always uses it.

Men don't have to hide the ability to channel, since they can't sense the ability in each other. But there's no reason to think that they can't hide it when they're actually holding the Power.

Thanks for reminding me about Demandred at the cleansing. That active use was what I was getting at.

And yes we have seen Rand weave inverted traps.. weaves that dont require active channeling after they are set... but we havent seen him make an inverted fireball etc...

Anyway thanks for reminding me, Demandred's reversed weaves were what I was wondering if men could do. And i know men cant sense the ability to channel.. but they can sense when a mofo is filled up with enough power to level a city :) that might be a good thing to mask at some point.

[The Immortal One]

I am leaning more towards tp balefire vs op balefire rather than just balefire vs balefire or tp vs op
I think this is most likely - the combination of the True Power versus the One Power; and the paradoxical balefire against balefire.

[Terez]

I really don't think that any paradox beyond the balefire itself is needed. The clash between True Power and One Power seems to add nothing to the mix.

[The Immortal One]

We know there are certain differences between the One Power and the True Power; differences in Travelling for instance.

Perhaps (though I admit it's unlikely) True Power Balefire is slightly different too... this is the only time we've ever seen True Power Balefire after all (which is kind of wierd considering how insane Moridin is).

[Terez]

We know there are certain differences between the One Power and the True Power; differences in Travelling for instance. I understand that. But it doesn't explain the Rand-Moridin phenomenon any better than the simple balefire paradox (neither really explains it well, to be honest, and the combination doesn't help). So why invoke the differences between the power? The stream-crossing is just yet another cultural reference made by RJ. :)

[4Alethinos]

I can well imagine that the TP would react very differently in how it interacts with the Pattern for Travelling and in other ways, as well. It is not native to the WoT universe. It is alien. It must give different effects and reactions to the Pattern, whether it is balefire or any other weave.

"It is not really like, it is other." :eek:

[Crispin's Crispian]

I can well imagine that the TP would react very differently in how it interacts with the Pattern for Travelling and in other ways, as well. It is not native to the WoT universe. It is alien. It must give different effects and reactions to the Pattern, whether it is balefire or any other weave.
Whatever that means ^^, I'm with Terez that adding the OP/TP interaction is unnecessary in explaining the phenomenon with Moridin and Rand.

You can explain how OP and TP are different six ways from Sunday, but it doesn't add anything to the speculation.

Just think: Balefire must involve a weave of Spirit, which must come from each channeler. If you add part of your spirit to a space-time destroying weave like balefire, it's not a big leap to believe that slapping your balefire against another man's balefire is going to end up with some queer results.

[Ieyasu]

Whatever that means ^^, I'm with Terez that adding the OP/TP interaction is unnecessary in explaining the phenomenon with Moridin and Rand.

You can explain how OP and TP are different six ways from Sunday, but it doesn't add anything to the speculation.

Just think: Balefire must involve a weave of Spirit, which must come from each channeler. If you add part of your spirit to a space-time destroying weave like balefire, it's not a big leap to believe that slapping your balefire against another man's balefire is going to end up with some queer results.

yes but balefire doesnt work the same way on inanimate objects as it does on ppl with threads. in the case of inanimate objects, it doesnt destroy the whole item, merely the portions it comes in contact.

i do not believe balefire vs balefire will do anything at all, atmost they will cancel eachother out, or the bigger weave will eat the smaller weave and keep going.

in this case, i believe the adverse reaction came because it was two equally powered balefire weaves of differing powersources.
its the whole kit and kaboodle... not just balefire vs balefire.

[tworiverswoman]

I have to agree with Ieyasu. It does actually have a bit of increased logic to it, using your own speculations, Terez.

In the AoL, there was, as you say, more widespread use of the TP, though even then it probably wasn't HEAVILY used, due to the side effects.

We KNOW there was widespread usage of Balefire -- for at least some period of time, until they frightened themselves away from it.

But the odds of someone using TP to fuel Balefire, in the close proximity of someone using OP to create Balefire, and then crossing the streams --- that seems to be a major fluke of events.

I know it's an unverifiable argument, but I'm willing to lay odds that the Pattern only allows this to occur for specifically this purpose, each time throught the cycles.

Balefire itself has been used in weapon form DIRECTLY at another individual who was using Balefire right back. We've seen it so, I believe, in the fight with Rahvin. Can someone find any descriptions of this. Were there any oddball reactions?

When the two disparate Balefires touched in Shadar Logoth, they didn't react to burn each other out -- they each KNOCKED THE CASTER ON HIS ASS. Sorta like an immovable object and the irrisistable force. I can't think of a clearer indication of repelling forces. Ordinary Balefire (!) doesn't do this.

[Terez]

You're remembering stuff that didn't happen, Tru. :p

[The Immortal One]

No reason really....

I just want to point out that we know almost nothing about the True Power and not much about the specifics of Balefire beyond the 'burning thread paradox'.

[Crispin's Crispian]

yes but balefire doesnt work the same way on inanimate objects as it does on ppl with threads. in the case of inanimate objects, it doesnt destroy the whole item, merely the portions it comes in contact.

I wouldn't classify balefire as wholly inanimate, since it's directly connected to the channeler. I don't think balefire is like a fireball or lightning bolt, where the channeler creates it then has no control over it once it's off and gone.

In any case, we've never seen balefire hit another stream of balefire, so we don't know what will happen.

There's nothing in the result of the stream-crossing that would imply that the OP/TP had anything to do with it, is there? When Rand thinks of Moridin, does his unhealable wound flare up? Does he see sa'a?

What about the whole incident suggest that the TP had anything to do with the result?

[Neilbert]

A lot of ppl used to think that the world was flat... A lot of ppl are wrong. Popularity of a believe does not lend creditability to it.

A lot of people like to make baseless assertions and not back them up with an iota of evidence, that does not mean we should give their ideas any credit.

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of– folding – as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba'alzamon had gone.

A sense of folding, or twisting, very similar to how even non channelers describe a gateway, and no mention of weaves, or the One Power. There is no Saidin here.

[GonzoTheGreat]

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of– folding – as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba'alzamon had gone.
Now, assuming that RJ knew what he was talking about when he said that no one can sense the weaves of a TP user, how could Rand have known where Ba'alzamon had gone?
If it was done with saidin, this is easily answered: Ishamael used saidin there to go to TAR, and all Rand had to do was read the weave (a Talent not all channelers have, but he has it) and copy it. But if it was done with the TP, then there's a gigantic hole in the plot here, since in that case Rand could not have followed.

[Terez]

Now, assuming that RJ knew what he was talking about when he said that no one can sense the weaves of a TP user, how could Rand have known where Ba'alzamon had gone?
Perhaps he can read the Pattern, like Ba'alzamon, but doesn't know it. :) It's true that Rand's description of the sense of folding was not even related to the Power. Also, we know from Rand's description later, and also Egwene's, that making gateways is a manipulation of the Pattern. Both the male and female methods bring two points in the Pattern together, one by boring a hole between two places, the other by making a point of similarity between them, and Moridin hears (or feels) the Pattern scream when he Travels with the True Power.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Perhaps he can read the Pattern, like Ba'alzamon, but doesn't know it. :) It's true that Rand's description of the sense of folding was not even related to the Power. Also, we know from Rand's description later, and also Egwene's, that making gateways is a manipulation of the Pattern. Both the male and female methods bring two points in the Pattern together, one by boring a hole between two places, the other by making a point of similarity between them, and Moridin hears (or feels) the Pattern scream when he Travels with the True Power.
Wait wait wait. Are you saying that Rand didn't use saidin to create the gateway? Why, then, did he reach out through Callandor to do it?

Or are you just saying that Isha'mael's opening of the gateway twisted the Pattern in a way that Rand could sense, with or without the Power?

[Marie Curie 7]

A sense of folding, or twisting, very similar to how even non channelers describe a gateway, and no mention of weaves, or the One Power. There is no Saidin here.

It might not be clear from just that scene, but it was saidin. We know this because when Rand thinks back on that scene, his thoughts are about having seen the weave that Ishamael used:

TITLE: Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel - he knew now that was what he had done - into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

He wove another now. A gateway, an opening at least, a hole in reality. It was not blackness on the other side. In fact, if he had not known the way was there, if he could not have seen the weave of it, he might not have known. There before him were the same arches opening onto the same courtyard and fountain, the same columned walk. For an instant the neatly rounded holes his balefire had made in arch and column wavered, filled, then were holes again. Wherever that gateway led, it was to somewhere else, a reflection of the Royal palace as once it had been a reflection of the Stone of Tear. Vaguely he regretted not talking to Asmodean about it while he had the chance, but he had never been able to speak of that day to anyone. It did not matter. On that day he had carried Callandor, but the angreal in his pocket had already proved enough to harry Rahvin.

Rand recognized Rahvin's gateway weave of saidin because he had seen it before - made by Ishamael in the Stone.

[Terez]

Wait wait wait. Are you saying that Rand didn't use saidin to create the gateway? No. :p

Or are you just saying that Isha'mael's opening of the gateway twisted the Pattern in a way that Rand could sense, with or without the Power? Yes, and that Rand's description of that sense of folding did not refer to the Power. This wouldn't necessarily significant on its own, because Rand might not have understood what he was sensing at that point. But in addition to this, there is the description of the Traveling itself. To add some context to Neil's quote:

TITLE - The Dragon Reborn
CHAPTER: 55 - What is Written in Prophecy

He turned to face Ba'alzamon. The tearing within him had ceased as soon as his hand touched Callandor. Only an instant had passed, yet it seemed to have lasted forever. "You will not take my soul," he shouted. "This time, I mean to finish it once and for all! I mean to finish it now!"

Ba'alzamon fled, man and shadow vanishing.

For a moment Rand stared, frowning. There had been a sense of– folding – as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was. Ignoring the men staring at him, ignoring Moiraine crumpled at the column base, Rand reached out, through Callandor, and twisted reality to make a door to somewhere else. He did not know to where, except that it was where Ba'alzamon had gone.

"I am the hunter now," he said, and stepped through. Rand made a gateway; Ishamael simply vanished, along with the shadow that accompanied him in the early books...(which might be part of the consequences of using the True Power - he calls to that shadow for aid later). Anyway, RJ told us that this type of Traveling is done with the True Power:

Netherlands tour 8 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting (http://home.casema.nl/e.f.delaat/elffantasyfairsun.html)

KuraFire asked about the prologue of The Eye of the World, where Ishamael Traveled, but with a different description than that of usual Traveling.
Jordan said that that was because the Traveling was done by using the True Power. We'd seen the same since, when Moridin Travels somewhere... "The Pattern screamed."
Emma was there when he said that. :D

[Terez]

It might not be clear from just that scene, but it was saidin. We know this because when Rand thinks back on that scene, his thoughts are about having seen the weave that Ishamael used
Rand didn't say he had seen Ishamael's gateway - he had made his own (I saw that latter phrase, "had made one himself", being an extension, or clarification, of "had seen one in Tear").

[Weird Harold]

A sense of folding, or twisting, very similar to how even non channelers describe a gateway, and no mention of weaves, or the One Power. There is no Saidin here.

There might not have been any Saidin there, but there was no True Power being used to make that gateway into T'A'R:


The watcher had seen truth change a hundred times between a single sunrise and sunset. More than once he had changed it himself. He considered going back and killing the seven women in the clearing. They would die easily; he doubted they knew how to form a true circle. The black flecks filled his eyes, a horizontal blizzard. No, he would let that run its course. For now.

To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.

There is no folding or twisting involved in Traveling with True Power I'm not even sure there is a gateway:

Behind him the air rippled, shimmered, solidified into a man who looked around, his mouth twisting briefly with distaste. Not so tall as Lews Therin, he was clothed all in black, save for the snow-white lace at his throat and the silverwork on the turned-down tops of his thigh-high boots. He stepped carefully, handling his cloak fastidiously to avoid brushing the dead. The floor trembled with aftershocks, but his attention was fixed on the man staring into the mirror and. laughing.

IIRC, RJ confirmed that the "star trek visual effects" are in fact what Traveling with True Power looks like to an observer.

[Terez]

There is no folding or twisting involved in Traveling with True Power I'm not even sure there is a gateway
Says who? Just because the Pattern screamed doesn't mean there was no twisting. :rolleyes:

IIRC, RJ confirmed that the "star trek visual effects" are in fact what Traveling with True Power looks like to an observer.
I have no idea what you're talking about, but I've posted the relevant quote about True Power Traveling.

[GonzoTheGreat]

To be honest, the folding done by Ishamael in Tear sounds rather a lot like what Rand describes to Egwene:
LOC, Chapter 27, Gifts

Instead of the joke at her expense she more than half-expected, he took the end of her shawl in both hands. "The Pattern," he said. "Caemlyn," one finger on his left hand tented the wool, "and Cairhien." A finger on the other hand made a tent, and he brought the two tents together. "I bend the Pattern and bore a hole from one to the other. I don’t know what I bore through, but there’s no space between one end of the hole and the other." He let the shawl drop. "Does that help?"
True, Rand uses the verb "to bend" here, instead of "to fold". But I am not convinced that's a significant enough difference to say that the folding is a result of the way that TP Travelling works.

[Terez]

To be honest, the folding done by Ishamael in Tear sounds rather a lot like what Rand describes to Egwene
I said that already - it's also similar to what Egwene does, in its own way. If you're going from one place to other, then you have bring those two places together in some way, which requires some twisting of the Pattern.

[GonzoTheGreat]

To be honest, I think that the "make two places be the same" sounds rather different from folding or bending.

[Weird Harold]

Says who? Just because the Pattern screamed doesn't mean there was no twisting. :rolleyes:

Says the Watcher's POV:

To his ears, the world screamed as he used the True Power to rip a small hole and step outside the Pattern. Sammael did not know how truly he spoke. Small increases in chaos could be every bit as important as large.

He didn't fold the pattern, he didn't twist the pattern, he ripped a hole in it and stepped outside of it.

Where is any twisting or folding in that description?

[Terez]

He didn't fold the pattern, he didn't twist the pattern, he ripped a hole in it and stepped outside of it.

Where is any twisting or folding in that description?
There isn't, but there has to be some sort of bending or twisting or folding for him to get from one place to the other, because the two places aren't anywhere near each other in reality.

Besides, Ishamael vanished when he Traveled to Tel'aran'rhiod in the Stone, rather than making a gateway, so we know he was using the True Power.

[Weird Harold]

There isn't, but there has to be some sort of bending or twisting or folding for him to get from one place to the other, because the two places aren't anywhere near each other in reality.

Besides, Ishamael vanished when he Traveled to Tel'aran'rhiod in the Stone, rather than making a gateway, so we know he was using the True Power.
No there doesn't have to be twisting or folding of the pattern to Travel from one place to another by going outside of the Pattern to get from one place to another

The inescapble fact is that if Ishameal used the TP in Tear, Rand could NOT have followed him. If Rand was "reading the the Pattern" to figure out where he went and how to get there, the he would have "heard the Pattern Scream" and would still have no idea of HOW Ishamael disappeared.

Unless there is a MASSIVE consistancy/continuity problem with Ishamael's disappearnce in Tear, Rand's pursuit into T'A'R could only be possible unless Ishamael used Saidin (to lure Rand into T'A'R?)

[Crispin's Crispian]

Look up the end of FoH, where Rand is chasing Rahvin, and also Nynaeve's POV of Rand leaving T'A'R to the real world.

[Terez]

No there doesn't have to be twisting or folding of the pattern to Travel from one place to another by going outside of the Pattern to get from one place to another
What do you think he does when he "steps outside the Pattern"? Walks on it? Flies around like a little birdie in the great Nothing?

The inescapble fact is that if Ishameal used the TP in Tear, Rand could NOT have followed him.
Sorry, but that's not a fact.

[quote=WH]If Rand was "reading the the Pattern" to figure out where he went and how to get there, the he would have "heard the Pattern Scream" and would still have no idea of HOW Ishamael disappeared.[/quoe]
Baseless assumption.

[Terez]

Look up the end of FoH, where Rand is chasing Rahvin, and also Nynaeve's POV of Rand leaving T'A'R to the real world.
What about it?
TITLE - The Fires of Heaven
CHAPTER: 55 - The Threads Burn

He did nothing that she could see or feel – of course, she could not – but for a moment she thought the hallway behind him had... turned in some way. But it did not look any different. Except... She blinked. There was no half-gone column in the colonnade beyond him, no hole in the stone railing.
Yeah, WH is saying that Rand couldn't feel the twisting if it wasn't saidin, but he's also saying that True Power Traveling wouldn't involve any twisting or folding (though I don't follow his logic).

[Crispin's Crispian]

What about it?

Yeah, WH is saying that Rand couldn't feel the twisting if it wasn't saidin, but he's also saying that True Power Traveling wouldn't involve any twisting or folding (though I don't follow his logic).
Now I can't remember what my argument was going to be. I think it was that Rand was traveling from the TAR version of the room to the real version, and it didn't look any different. To Nynaeve, it would appear that Rand simply vanished (like what Isha'mael did in the Stone).

Also, there's nothing there indicating that Nynaeve could have followed Rand by reading the twisting...though she might not have that power.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Rand didn't say he had seen Ishamael's gateway - he had made his own (I saw that latter phrase, "had made one himself", being an extension, or clarification, of "had seen one in Tear").
I disagree. Now that I read this quote, it's clear that Rand is saying that Isha'mael used saidin in the Stone. He's not simply clarifying that he saw the one he made--that would be unnecessary.

[Realnow]

I disagree. Now that I read this quote, it's clear that Rand is saying that Isha'mael used saidin in the Stone. He's not simply clarifying that he saw the one he made--that would be unnecessary.

How so? Doesn't the quote clearly show that the way they travel is entirely different?

--Nevermind this, so many quotes I mixed up a couple from different books

What do you think he does when he "steps outside the Pattern"? Walks on it? Flies around like a little birdie in the great Nothing?

Isn't the point of being outside reality that you don't need to worry about walking or moving at all anymore? If your outside reality I see no reason not to just be appearing directly at your location with no bending or twisting. Just ripping :D

[Terez]

I disagree. Now that I read this quote, it's clear that Rand is saying that Isha'mael used saidin in the Stone. He's not simply clarifying that he saw the one he made--that would be unnecessary.
I don't see how it's clear. It's clear to me that Ishamael used the non-gateway True Power form of Traveling in the Stone, and Rand's statement doesn't contradict that at all.

[Realnow]

I don't see how it's clear. It's clear to me that Ishamael used the non-gateway True Power form of Traveling in the Stone, and Rand's statement doesn't contradict that at all.

What about this quote, wouldn't that mean Rand was using TP too?

Rahvin had not gone that way, though, and he had not died in that blast of balefire. A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel - he knew now that was what he had done - into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

[Marie Curie 7]

Rand didn't say he had seen Ishamael's gateway - he had made his own (I saw that latter phrase, "had made one himself", being an extension, or clarification, of "had seen one in Tear").

Yeah, I disagree with that interpretation, obviously. :) It seems to me that Rand is thinking that he had seen one in Tear (Ishamael's) AND he had also made one himself (to follow Ishamael).

[Ieyasu]

Yeah, I disagree with that interpretation, obviously. :) It seems to me that Rand is thinking that he had seen one in Tear (Ishamael's) AND he had also made one himself (to follow Ishamael).


Obviously, i agree here with this version.

Also, something to keep in mind... Rand is a noob channeler at this time... he doesnt have sufficient knowhow to completely understand/comprehend what he sees/feels.

As for the pattern screamed quote... how do you know he was traveling rather than tp skimming? you know what he does in the great nothing? the same thing rand does in the skimming place... how do you leave a place you traveled to but dont know well enough to travel away? you skim!

[Terez]

What about this quote, wouldn't that mean Rand was using TP too?
No. Why would it?

[Terez]

Also, something to keep in mind... Rand is a noob channeler at this time... he doesnt have sufficient knowhow to completely understand/comprehend what he sees/feels.
I already said that - it's the RJ interview quote that makes it so certain Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone.

As for the pattern screamed quote... how do you know he was traveling rather than tp skimming? you know what he does in the great nothing? the same thing rand does in the skimming place... how do you leave a place you traveled to but dont know well enough to travel away? you skim!
Just to nitpick, you can Travel from any place that you Traveled to, because making a gateway there helps you learn the ground.

[Ieyasu]

I already said that - it's the RJ interview quote that makes it so certain Ishamael was using the True Power in the Stone.


I havent seen any RJ quote that as implied such at all.

[Terez]

I havent seen any RJ quote that as implied such at all.
I posted it earlier. Someone asked RJ why Ishamael's form of Traveling is different than the normal style (the difference OBVIOUSLY being that normal people use gateways, while Ishamael just vanishes/materializes). RJ says it's because he uses the True Power. When he Travels to Tel'aran'rhiod in the Stone, he simply vanishes. That means True Power...

[Ieyasu]

I posted it earlier. Someone asked RJ why Ishamael's form of Traveling is different than the normal style (the difference OBVIOUSLY being that normal people use gateways, while Ishamael just vanishes/materializes). RJ says it's because he uses the True Power. When he Travels to Tel'aran'rhiod in the Stone, he simply vanishes. That means True Power...

I read the quote earlier... how does that have anything to do with ishy's TAR gate?

As the quote says, in the prologue, ishy used tp traveling... and we saw it again when Moridin did it...

notice he didnt bring up anything that ishy did?

your quote doesnt say what you are saying it does. he is cloaked in darkenss at the time... its easy to miss the gate or not see it... its not easy for rand to feel it, and copy the weave if its tp.

you can try to attribute a new magic power to rand, and say he suddenly has the power to read the pattern, to make your theory work.... but that is just senseless.

[Terez]

I read the quote earlier... how does that have anything to do with ishy's TAR gate?

As the quote says, in the prologue, ishy used tp traveling... and we saw it again when Moridin did it...

notice he didnt bring up anything that ishy did?

your quote doesnt say what you are saying it does. he is cloaked in darkenss at the time... its easy to miss the gate or not see it... its not easy for rand to feel it, and copy the weave if its tp. Okay, this is where you lose me. Ishamael wasn't cloaked in darkness when he gated away - only when he first showed up:

(same chapter)

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.

Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him. He hung in the air, two spans above the floor, glaring at Rand with a rage as fierce as his eyes. "Twice in this life I have offered you the chance to serve me living." Flames leaped in his mouth as he spoke, and every word roared like a furnace. "Twice you have refused, and wounded me. Now you will serve the Lord of the Grave in death. Die, Lews Therin Kinslayer. Die, Rand al'Thor. It is time for you to die! I take your soul!"The shadow still "clung to him", but it obviously didn't obscure the sight of him from that point on. If Ishamael had made a gateway, I really don't think Rand would have missed it. :rolleyes:

you can try to attribute a new magic power to rand, and say he suddenly has the power to read the pattern, to make your theory work.... but that is just senseless. That was just a suggestion, lol. Something to make sense out of it all. RJ said that it was True Power Traveling. Rand sensed it anyway, and later Nynaeve sensed Rand doing the same thing, though she had no sense of where he went. That much is clear - the rest is educated guesses. Maybe Nynaeve's just not as good as Rand. The only real reason the Pattern-reading comes up as a possibility is that we have no idea how it's done. Maybe it's like that. Who knows? Maybe RJ didn't have it all worked out so well at that stage in the game. ;)

[Neilbert]

Rand recognized Rahvin's gateway weave of saidin because he had seen it before - made by Ishamael in the Stone.

There is nothing in there about recognizing a weave, merely recognizing a gate to TAR.

[Marie Curie 7]

There is nothing in there about recognizing a weave, merely recognizing a gate to TAR.

There is everything in there about recognizing a weave. The quote from TFoH is:

A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it.

Sorry, but that certainly implies to me that Rand recognized the weave itself.

[The Immortal One]

it's not a big leap to believe that slapping your balefire against another man's balefire is going to end up with some queer results.
Did you mean this how it sounded?

[tworiverswoman]

Did you mean this how it sounded?All threads lead to Gay Marriage!

[Realnow]

That was just a suggestion, lol. Something to make sense out of it all. RJ said that it was True Power Traveling. Rand sensed it anyway, and later Nynaeve sensed Rand doing the same thing, though she had no sense of where he went. That much is clear - the rest is educated guesses. Maybe Nynaeve's just not as good as Rand. The only real reason the Pattern-reading comes up as a possibility is that we have no idea how it's done. Maybe it's like that. Who knows? Maybe RJ didn't have it all worked out so well at that stage in the game. ;)

If this is TP travelling, and Rand said he had made the same weave himself, wouldn't that mean he TP travelled?

[Terez]

If this is TP travelling, and Rand said he had made the same weave himself, wouldn't that mean he TP travelled?
No, because Rahvin wasn't using the True Power.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Did you mean this how it sounded?
How did it sound to you?

[Brita]

~~snicker~~

[Crispin's Crispian]

There is everything in there about recognizing a weave. The quote from TFoH is:



Sorry, but that certainly implies to me that Rand recognized the weave itself.
Couldn't agree more. Let's break this down:

-Rand sees the saidin residue of Rahvin's Gateway.
-Rand recognizes the weave as one that he saw in the Stone of Tear.
-Rand couldn't recognize a TP weave, because Rand can't channel the TP and wouldn't see it.

If Isha'mael was using the TP in the Stone, it would require Rand to have some ability to read the Pattern then deduce the saidin weave from that.

The only thing we have that might suggest Isha'mael using the TP at that point is:

Netherlands tour 8 April 2001, Elf Fantasy Fair - Aan'allein reporting

KuraFire asked about the prologue of The Eye of the World, where Ishamael Traveled, but with a different description than that of usual Traveling.
Jordan said that that was because the Traveling was done by using the True Power. We'd seen the same since, when Moridin Travels somewhere... "The Pattern screamed."

Nothing in the quote explicitly says that Isha'mael used the True Power to make the Gateway in the Stone of Tear.

The evidence strongly suggests that Isha'mael used saidin to make that Gateway, and Rand was able to follow him because he can copy weaves.

What was the original point of this debate, again?

[Terez]

Rand didn't even see Ishamael's weave in the Stone, though. He just felt the folding, twisting, whatever. RJ's quote obviously refers to the different type of Traveling, so obviously Rand was talking about his own weave (which he went on to clarify).

[Crispin's Crispian]

There's nothing obvious about it, at least not the way you're suggesting.

But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

The sentence obviously refers to two weaves--the one Rand saw, and the one he made. If they were the same weave, he would say either,

"He had made a weave like this in Tear," or
"He had seen one like this in Tear, had made it himself."

There's no reason for him to say he had seen one, and made one if it was the same weave. That would be stupid.

When Rand says he felt the folding and twisting, whatever in the Stone, that is just because he didn't know what he was seeing.

I don't get why you're being so stubborn about this. It's obvious from all the quotes, or at least the evidence is overwhelming.

[Terez]

The sentence obviously refers to two weaves--the one Rand saw, and the one he made. If they were the same weave, he would say either,

"He had made a weave like this in Tear," or
"He had seen one like this in Tear, had made it himself."

There's no reason for him to say he had seen one, and made one if it was the same weave. That would be stupid.
I could probably find several other sentences structured the same way. I don't feel like it right now, but it's not so clear-cut as you make it out to be.

When Rand says he felt the folding and twisting, whatever in the Stone, that is just because he didn't know what he was seeing.
Why are you claiming that he saw anything? He didn't see anything - he just felt it.

I don't get why you're being so stubborn about this. It's obvious from all the quotes, or at least the evidence is overwhelming.
Yes, the evidence is overwhelming that RJ said the type of Traveling Ishamael used, that does not involve gateways, is True Power Traveling. The fact that you guys continue to be obstinate about not recognizing that obvious fact is.....lame. :)

[Terez]

Here's another quote from Thus Spake:

Q: [Someone was nitpicking about The Eye of the World's prologue, when Ishamael suddenly pops in. It was a ripple or a shimmer or something of the sort, not a "gateway". So, this guys asks what was up with that? Creative license? Had not established the magic of the realm yet?]
RJ: <semi-heard filler here> What do you think?
Fan Response: [The guy said True Power Travel]
RJ: Yes. [Can’t give you specifics of response, but he did say that it (True Power) was the reason for the difference in Traveling.]

[Ieyasu]

Here's another quote from Thus Spake:


[/SIZE]


All of these quotes are utterly worthless... none of them have anything at all to do with the stone.

That you keep stretching and searching and reaching to find something that just doesnt back up your cockamainy theory is just... lame :rolleyes:

[Terez]

All of these quotes are utterly worthless... none of them have anything at all to do with the stone.

That you keep stretching and searching and reaching to find something that just doesnt back up your cockamainy theory is just... lame :rolleyes:
Stretching? Please...they obviously have to do with what Ishamael did in the Stone because he vanished rather than making a gateway. You guys are the ones stretching...

[Ieyasu]

Stretching? Please...they obviously have to do with what Ishamael did in the Stone because he vanished rather than making a gateway. You guys are the ones stretching...

it has nothing to do with the stone... rand doesnt suddenly get a one time use magical power to read the pattern to accomplish this, nor can he sense/see anything done by the tp to copy it... that we dont literally see the physical gate doesnt mean its not there... remember TAR gates only make an outline and the backdrop to the gate just happens to look exactly like the realworld (especially when you are opening it to the exact same location in TAR) the only thing to see is the door outline, cloaked in shadow makes it hard to see... closing the gate makes him appear to vanish. its quite simple


therefore it was saidin that he felt, intuitively understood, and replicated on his own... it is absolutely stupefying that you insist otherwise. I think i am debasing myself just by continuing this debate with you, like most women, you can never admit when you are wrong. lol! Think what you want, I have no problems laughing at you from my side of the screen :rolleyes:

[Terez]

it has nothing to do with the stone... rand doesnt suddenly get a one time use magical power to read the pattern to accomplish this
It's the same thing Nynaeve sensed when Rand did it. Nothing special.

nor can he sense/see anything done by the tp to copy it...
Obviously he can...

that we dont literally see the physical gate doesnt mean its not there... remember TAR gates only make an outline and the backdrop to the gate just happens to look exactly like the realworld (especially when you are opening it to the exact same location in TAR) the only thing to see is the door outline, cloaked in shadow makes it hard to see... closing the gate makes him appear to vanish. its quite simple
Best explanation you've come up with so far, but it still doesn't cut it. If he had stepped through an invisible gateway, he still wouldn't have appeared to just vanish.

therefore it was saidin that he felt, intuitively understood, and replicated on his own... it is absolutely stupefying that you insist otherwise. I think i am debasing myself just by continuing this debate with you, like most women, you can never admit when you are wrong. lol! Think what you want, I have no problems laughing at you from my side of the screen :rolleyes:
lol...laugh all you want. I laugh at you damn near every time you open your cyber-mouth. :rolleyes:

[Ieyasu]

Best explanation you've come up with so far, but it still doesn't cut it. If he had stepped through an invisible gateway, he still wouldn't have appeared to just vanish.


to a noob channeler who doesnt comprehend just what it is he is seeing? yes, he does appear to vanish.

EDIT: He doesnt even have to close the gate to appear to vanish, just TAR will himself somewhere else... *poof* vanished! /EDIT

lol...laugh all you want. I laugh at you damn near every time you open your cyber-mouth. :rolleyes:

ditto sweetheart, youre a funny girl and im a funny guy

:D

[Crispin's Crispian]

I think i am debasing myself just by continuing this debate with you, like most women, you can never admit when you are wrong. lol! Think what you want, I have no problems laughing at you from my side of the screen
LOL WTF?

Terez, you really don't have anything except an assumption that, because the two other gateways Ishy made were TP, this one must be TP as well. But in order for that to be true, Rand has to have a special Pattern-reading power that isn't mentioned anywhere explicitly, nor appears anywhere else in the books in the same way.

It's much simpler just to say that Isha'mael used the One Power, Rand intuitively copied the weave, and then noticed it was familiar when Rahvin did the same thing in Caemlyn.

And again...what was the point of this part of the debate? What does this have to do with balefire again?

[Terez]

Terez, you really don't have anything except an assumption that, because the two other gateways Ishy made were TP, this one must be TP as well. But in order for that to be true, Rand has to have a special Pattern-reading power that isn't mentioned anywhere explicitly, nor appears anywhere else in the books in the same way.

It's much simpler just to say that Isha'mael used the One Power, Rand intuitively copied the weave, and then noticed it was familiar when Rahvin did the same thing in Caemlyn.

And again...what was the point of this part of the debate? What does this have to do with balefire again? I really see your side as being just as ridiculous as you apparently see mine. I've explained why. It has nothing to do with balefire, but Yasu keeps trying to insist that the True Power had something to do with the Rand/Isha'zadin screwup, and you can easily look back to see how that led to this. We can go back to ganging up on Yasu if you like. :D

[Neilbert]

Well, isn't it just in the previous Age of Legends that he got the nickname of Dragon? I mean, he's also known as the Car'a'carn, the Commador (or whatever it is to the...whatever they are, seafolkish people) etc. So he just covered all the basics by saying Champion of Light, or at least, that's the way I think of it.

The Dark One calls Rand/LTT "the Dragon", and the name did just kind of appear out of nowhere, implying a will of the Pattern sort of deal. I think that the official title for Rand's soul is Dragon, and that champion of the Light is used because there are other champions of the Light for use in situations when the Dragon would not be appropriate.

[Neilbert]

Terez, you really don't have anything except an assumption that, because the two other gateways Ishy made were TP, this one must be TP as well. But in order for that to be true, Rand has to have a special Pattern-reading power that isn't mentioned anywhere explicitly, nor appears anywhere else in the books in the same way.

There had been a sense of– folding – as Ba'alzamon left. A twisting, as if Ba'alzamon had in some way bent what was.

Except that this is exactly what Rand describes. He senses reality, or "what was" "folding", or "twisting". There is no mention of weaves, only the effects of weaving. In fact, the quote even refrences the fact that Rand has no idea how Ishamael did what he did. "In some way."

I notice you add a caveat to your statement about pattern reading powers. They don't appear "in the same way". Fact is, people can sense shifts, eddys, and changes in the pattern. Some of the Forsaken can sense the pattern well enough to identify the locations of Ta'veren. Channelers can sense changes in the pattern. It is not a stretch, in the slightest, to assume that a channeler would be able to recognize a hole in the pattern that leads to TAR.

It's much simpler just to say that Isha'mael used the One Power, Rand intuitively copied the weave, and then noticed it was familiar when Rahvin did the same thing in Caemlyn.

Ishamael uses the TP for the most mundane of tasks, so if he is using the OP here it must be a very deliberate and conscious choice on his part. Why would he do it?

No, what happened here is not Rand "intuitively" copying the weave. He doesn't have that kind of intuition, because he doesn't need it. He has LTT's memories chilling in his head. He recognized a gateway to TAR and made his own.

In fact, read the bit afterwards, where Rand actually chases down Ishamael and kills him. It is pretty obvious that Rand is using knowledge from LTT. It's full of these nice little tidbits.

it was instinct as much as anything else that made him loose flows from saidin into Callandor, a flood of the Power that made the sword blaze brighter even than that bar streaking at him.

Without knowing how, he turned them to vapor that parted before him – and vanished.

He could not even begin to imagine what it was that he did.

Vaguely he knew that in some way he had brought things back into natural balance, forced them into line with his own dance down that impossibly thin divide between existence and nothingness, but that knowledge was distant.

Ishamael showed up for a fight with Rand, and got Lews Therin.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Except that this is exactly what Rand describes. He senses reality, or "what was" "folding", or "twisting". There is no mention of weaves, only the effects of weaving. In fact, the quote even refrences the fact that Rand has no idea how Ishamael did what he did. "In some way."


Now that I have my books out of storage, I need to reread the whole Stone battle. Are there other times he senses weaves? Does he sense anything with Bel'al?


I notice you add a caveat to your statement about pattern reading powers. They don't appear "in the same way". Fact is, people can sense shifts, eddys, and changes in the pattern. Some of the Forsaken can sense the pattern well enough to identify the locations of Ta'veren. Channelers can sense changes in the pattern. It is not a stretch, in the slightest, to assume that a channeler would be able to recognize a hole in the pattern that leads to TAR.

Not a stretch at all? Rand saw Rahvin's hole to TAR and knew it for what it was--a saidin-woven gateway. Unless you're going to argue that what Rand wove in the Stone wasn't a gateway...


Ishamael uses the TP for the most mundane of tasks, so if he is using the OP here it must be a very deliberate and conscious choice on his part. Why would he do it?

That's why I need to read the rest of it. This is one point I have no argument for at the moment.

No, what happened here is not Rand "intuitively" copying the weave. He doesn't have that kind of intuition, because he doesn't need it. He has LTT's memories chilling in his head. He recognized a gateway to TAR and made his own.

In fact, read the bit afterwards, where Rand actually chases down Ishamael and kills him. It is pretty obvious that Rand is using knowledge from LTT. It's full of these nice little tidbits.

How did Rand know where Isha'mael went? Somehow a memory from LTT told him? That's definitely a stretch. I like Terez's Pattern idea better than that one, certainly.

Look at this again:

A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel - he knew now that was what he had done - into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.
Rand sees the remnant of a saidin gateway and recognizes it as the same as what he saw in Tear. Despite what Terez claims, it's clear from this passage that Rand is talking about two gateways in Tear--one he saw, and one he wove. There's really no other way to read that passage.

So he recognizes the saidin gateway as being the same as the one he saw in Tear. If he recognizes that, he copied the gateway intuitively.

[Terez]

Now that I have my books out of storage, I need to reread the whole Stone battle. Are there other times he senses weaves? Does he sense anything with Bel'al? No. I already said earlier that Rand had no real notion of what he was doing yet, and had not yet mentioned being able to see weaves.
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 7 - Playing With Fire

He sighed. "I know what you mean about life filling you, though, even with the taint turning my stomach. Colors are sharper, smells clearer. Everything is more real, somehow. I don't want to let go, once I have it, even while it's trying to swallow me. But the rest.... Face the facts, Egwene. The Tower is right about this. Accept it for the truth, because it is."

She shook her head. "I will accept it when it is proved to me." She did not sound as sure as she wanted to, not as sure she had been. What he told sounded like some twisted half-reflection of what she did, similarities only emphasizing differences. Yet there were similarities. She would not give up. "Can you tell the flows apart? Air, Water, Spirit, Earth, Fire?"

"Sometimes," he said slowly. "Not usually. I just take what I need to do what I want. Fumble for it, mostly. It's very strange. Sometimes I need to do a thing, and I do it, but only afterward do I know what it was I did, or how. It's almost like remembering something I've forgotten. But I can remember how to do it again. Most of the time." At that point, he couldn't even always tell the flows apart. But I think the bolded bit lends even more strength to my interpretation of the quote from The Fires of Heaven.

Not a stretch at all? Rand saw Rahvin's hole to TAR and knew it for what it was--a saidin-woven gateway. Unless you're going to argue that what Rand wove in the Stone wasn't a gateway... Rand wove a gateway. Isha'zadin didn't.

[Neilbert]

How did Rand know where Isha'mael went? Somehow a memory from LTT told him?

Uh... yeah. Rand sensed something he would not have been able to understand if he didn't have access to LTT's memories.

That's why I need to read the rest of it. This is one point I have no argument for at the moment.

Yes, read the rest of it and then try to tell me that LTT wasn't helping Rand.

A residue hung in the air, a fading remnant of woven saidin. Rand recognized it. Different from the gateway he had made to Skim to Caemlyn, or the one to Travel - he knew now that was what he had done - into the throne room. But he had seen one like this in Tear, had made one himself.

Rand sees the remnant of a saidin gateway and recognizes it as the same as what he saw in Tear.

No, he doesn't. That is not explicitly stated. What is stated is that he had seen "one like this" in Tear.

Now, you happily interpret "one like this" to mean another gateway made out of Saidin, which opens to TAR. That is your prerogative, but it is by no means solid proof of anything.

I look back at the paragraph and note that Rand is drawing a distinction between what he sees (a gate to TAR), Skimming, and Traveling. So I interpret "one like this" to refer simply to a gate to TAR, which by everyone's definition he has seen in Tear, and has made himself.

[Crispin's Crispian]

No. I already said earlier that Rand had no real notion of what he was doing yet, and had not yet mentioned being able to see weaves.
At that point, he couldn't even always tell the flows apart. But I think the bolded bit lends even more strength to my interpretation of the quote from The Fires of Heaven.

Rand wove a gateway. Isha'zadin didn't.
How do we know Isha'mael didn't weave a gateway? At that point Rand couldn't see flows or weaves anyway. In fact, I just read the passage in FoH where Asmo mentions that he's learning to see the flows.

[Terez]

How do we know Isha'mael didn't weave a gateway?
Because Rand watched him "vanish". Rand doesn't need to be able to see weaves to see a gateway.

At that point Rand couldn't see flows or weaves anyway. In fact, I just read the passage in FoH where Asmo mentions that he's learning to see the flows.
Which is part of my point. Rand didn't see any other gateway in the Stone than his own.

[Crispin's Crispian]

Because Rand watched him "vanish". Rand doesn't need to be able to see weaves to see a gateway.

Clarify please--did Isha'mael weave a gateway, or didn't he? First you say he didn't, now you say Rand just didn't see the weaves.

Which is part of my point. Rand didn't see any other gateway in the Stone than his own.
I just can't read the quote that way. But we're not going to get past this point.

Why the hell would Rand say it like that if he was talking about his own gateway? I just doesn't make sense to me.

[Terez]

Clarify please--did Isha'mael weave a gateway, or didn't he? First you say he didn't, now you say Rand just didn't see the weaves.
You just misinterpreted what I said. Rand doesn't have to see weaves to see a gateway - in other words, if Isha'zadin have made a gateway, Rand would have seen it. But he didn't. Rand just saw him disappear.

[Neilbert]

No, he doesn't. That is not explicitly stated. What is stated is that he had seen "one like this" in Tear.

Now, you happily interpret "one like this" to mean another gateway made out of Saidin, which opens to TAR. That is your prerogative, but it is by no means solid proof of anything.

I look back at the paragraph and note that Rand is drawing a distinction between what he sees (a gate to TAR), Skimming, and Traveling. So I interpret "one like this" to refer simply to a gate to TAR, which by everyone's definition he has seen in Tear, and has made himself.

You missed something.

[The Immortal One]

Ishamael showed up for a fight with Rand, and got Lews Therin.

Yeah, Lews Therin with Callandor!!!!


One question: why would Ishamael choose to use the One Power for this task when he uses the True Power for every other web he spins?

And if you think it's because he wanted to lure Rand to TAR then you should re-read the battle; Ishamael showed up, he neutralised Moiraine, then attacked Rand but as soon as Rand grabs the Callandor he runs away - why would he choose to run away in a way that Rand can follow? I mean, even the worst Accepted can copy a weave they see woven right in front of them.

Another question: how often has Ishamael, or Moridin for that matter, used the One Power?

I can't remember a single time when it was specifically shown that he uses the One Power instead of the True Power.

[Terez]

And if you think it's because he wanted to lure Rand to TAR then you should re-read the battle; Ishamael showed up, he neutralised Moiraine, then attacked Rand but as soon as Rand grabs the Callandor he runs away - why would he choose to run away in a way that Rand can follow? I mean, even the worst Accepted can copy a weave they see woven right in front of them.
Isha'zadin had no reason to assume that Rand could follow him even if he used saidin.

Another question: how often has Ishamael, or Moridin for that matter, used the One Power?
Not even once that we know of.

[Sodas]

One question: why would Ishamael choose to use the One Power for this task when he uses the True Power for every other web he spins?
Because maybe you can't enter T'A'R with any TP based weave.

[Terez]

We don't have any reason to believe that, though, so that doesn't really answer Immy's question.

[Sodas]

And if you think it's because he wanted to lure Rand to TAR then you should re-read the battle; Ishamael showed up, he neutralised Moiraine, then attacked Rand but as soon as Rand grabs the Callandor he runs away - why would he choose to run away in a way that Rand can follow? I mean, even the worst Accepted can copy a weave they see woven right in front of them.
He could have TP Traveled knowing full well that Rand couldn't follow at any time. That is how we know he made the choice to fight Rand in T'A'R.

[Sodas]

We don't have any reason to believe that, though, so that doesn't really answer Immy's question.
Naw, your just biased against that thought.

There is plenty of evidence to believe the TP different in many ways from the OP. Particularly when talking about Traveling - there should always be doubt.

Callandor the poster used to say that there wasn't any reason to believe that Trolloc's couldn't Travel, and he was proven wrong by many on this board even before the neccessary proof later in the series. There was plenty of reason in the books, even if he couldn't see it.

[Weird Harold]

We don't have any reason to believe that, though, so that doesn't really answer Immy's question.
Except that nothing else directly associated with the DO -- Shayol Gul, the Blight, etc -- registers in T'A'R. The thought that the TP can't Travel to someplace that refuses to recognise it exists crossed my mind as well.

[Neilbert]

Except that nothing else directly associated with the DO -- Shayol Gul, the Blight, etc -- registers in T'A'R. The thought that the TP can't Travel to someplace that refuses to recognise it exists crossed my mind as well.

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

TP seems to work just fine in TAR.

Naw, your just biased against that thought.

And you are completely without bias of your own?

[Sodas]

I don't pretend to be unbiased. I'm biased against people ruling out other theories without reason.

And your quote more likely infers Ishy is using T'A'R, rather than TP. The darkness around him is a reflection of his will in T'A'R, not the TP. So gathering it more likely refers to T'A'R manipulation, rather than TP use.

[Neilbert]

I don't pretend to be unbiased. I'm biased against people ruling out other theories without reason.

You are pretending to be unbiased right now.

The darkness around him is a reflection of his will in T'A'R, not the TP.

The darkness around Ishamael appears in the real world, as well as in TAR. Because it appears in the real world, it can not be a part of TAR.

Rand stared up at where the lightning had come from. There was a deeper shadow up there, near the top of the columns, a blackness that made all other shadows look like noonday, and from it, two eyes of fire stared back at him.
Slowly the shadow descended, resolving into Ba'alzamon, clothed in dead black, like a Myrddraal's black. Yet even that was not so dark as the shadow that clung to him.

Ishamael addresses the shadows, and demands aid.

"I will not be undone!" Ba'alzamon cried. His mouth was fire; his shriek echoed among the columns. "I cannot be defeated! Aid me!" Some of the darkness shrouding him drifted into his hands, formed into a ball so black it seemed to soak up even the light of Callandor. Sudden triumph blazed in the flames of his eyes.

It seems rather unlikely that Ishamael would need to address his own will manifested in TAR. It seems much more likely that he would call upon his master Shai'tan for aid.

[Weird Harold]

Ishamael addresses the shadows, and demands aid.

...

It seems rather unlikely that Ishamael would need to address his own will manifested in TAR. It seems much more likely that he would call upon his master Shai'tan for aid.

Once Ba'alzamon passed into T'A'R, the rules changed. It doesn't matter who or what he talks to, the darkness surrounding him will respond exactly as he expects it to because that's the nature of T'A'R.

IOW, there is no way to diffrentiate between actual power use and T'A'R manipulation -- often not even from the person's POV -- because the results will be exactly the same whatever the mechanism.

[Terez]

Once Ba'alzamon passed into T'A'R, the rules changed. It doesn't matter who or what he talks to, the darkness surrounding him will respond exactly as he expects it to because that's the nature of T'A'R.
That's ridiculous. Ishamael knows the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod - why would he go out of his way to do something simple?

[Weird Harold]

That's ridiculous. Ishamael knows the properties of Tel'aran'rhiod - why would he go out of his way to do something simple?

Ishamael knew and used the properties of T'A'R. Even Ba'alzamon knew and used the properties of T'A'R before Rand defeated him twice.

Ba'alzamon -- as he appeared in Tear for his final defeat -- was crazier than a whole chain of insane asylums and wasn't thinking about the properties of T'A'R, he was pleading with his God for assistance in a place where that assistance would materialize whether his God heard him or not.

As to why Ish/Ba'alzamon would use Saidin or the properties of T'A'R rather than TP, I don't know, All I know is that if Ba'alzamon did NOT use Saidin then Rand could NOT have followed him without an ability RJ said does not exist (the ability to sense someone esle using TP) or that he has never since exhibited any trace of (being able to read the Pattern well enough to determine the destination of a TP Traveler.)

ETA: Following Ba'alzamon'suse of Saidin only requires an ability RAnd is known to posess and has used repeatedly: the ability to read and copy a weave from the residue it leaves behind.

[Neilbert]

Once Ba'alzamon passed into T'A'R, the rules changed. It doesn't matter who or what he talks to, the darkness surrounding him will respond exactly as he expects it to because that's the nature of T'A'R.

Ishamael addressed TAR... because he wanted to? That is one heck of a stretch. Nobody, Ishamael included, has felt a need to address TAR before or since.

IOW, there is no way to diffrentiate between actual power use and T'A'R manipulation -- often not even from the person's POV -- because the results will be exactly the same whatever the mechanism.

There are instances in which one might differentiate. For example, it is impossible to use the Power to turn somebody into a horse, but you can do that with TAR manipulation. Likewise, you can not travel to the real world from TAR using the properties of TAR, that requires the power.

There is no reason to believe that Ishamael would switch from True Power shadows, to TAR shadows. Rather, if he were using TAR and only TAR, there would be no need for the Shadow feature at all.

Your explanation, by necessity, gets more and more complicated. I wonder what the next twist will be.

[Weird Harold]

Ishamael addressed TAR... because he wanted to? That is one heck of a stretch. Nobody, Ishamael included, has felt a need to address TAR before or since.



There are instances in which one might differentiate. For example, it is impossible to use the Power to turn somebody into a horse, but you can do that with TAR manipulation. Likewise, you can not travel to the real world from TAR using the properties of TAR, that requires the power.

There is no reason to believe that Ishamael would switch from True Power shadows, to TAR shadows. Rather, if he were using TAR and only TAR, there would be no need for the Shadow feature at all.

Your explanation, by necessity, gets more and more complicated. I wonder what the next twist will be.
It's very simple at heart: Rand does NOT possess the power to sense, detect, notice, track, or copy things done with the TP.

He does however have the ability to read residues and reconstruct weaves, which is how he followed both Asmodean and Rahvin.

Ba'alzamon did NOT "speak to T'A'R," he appealed to the DO. I do not know -- nor do I really care -- whether the DO responded or Ba'alzamon's subconscious created a response the DO couldn't or wouldn't provide.

[Sodas]

You are pretending to be unbiased right now.
Please, I readily admit I'm biased. How about yourself?

Ishamael addressed TAR... because he wanted to? That is one heck of a stretch. Nobody, Ishamael included, has felt a need to address TAR before or since.
What WH is talking about is controlling TAR. How is that a stretch when we know even clothing (something taken into TAR with a channeler) can be changed and controlled? It's not.

The real stretch here is to believe that Ishamael wouldn't take all the advantages of T'A'R. Including, manipulating the darkness beyond just a protective barrier.

You will have to show exactly which scene you are refering to as Ishamael's real world use of the Darkness.

[Seeker]

That was just a suggestion, lol. Something to make sense out of it all. RJ said that it was True Power Traveling. Rand sensed it anyway, and later Nynaeve sensed Rand doing the same thing, though she had no sense of where he went. That much is clear - the rest is educated guesses. Maybe Nynaeve's just not as good as Rand. The only real reason the Pattern-reading comes up as a possibility is that we have no idea how it's done. Maybe it's like that. Who knows? Maybe RJ didn't have it all worked out so well at that stage in the game

It's called a retcon. Exactly what I mentioned before. It's because travelling wasn't done by gateway in the first three by ANYONE.

[The Immortal One]

It's called a retcon. Exactly what I mentioned before. It's because travelling wasn't done by gateway in the first three by ANYONE.

Really? I don't remember so well, but I'm fairly certain that we saw a few gateways for Skimming in the first three books and I'm not sure that we actually saw ANYONE besides Ishamael Travelling at all.



As for Ishamael using the One Power in this instance ONLY for the purposes of luring Rand into TAR; well it seems strange - Ishamael didn't know that Rand can read and copy weaves then did he?

And even with Ishamael knowing and using the advantages of TAR was he insane enough to purposely confront Rand when he shows so much instinctive knowledge of the One Power and is channelling through the third most powerful Sa'Angreal ever made - especially when Rand has defeated him twice already without any assistance. Ishamael used one of his most powerful weaves on Rand (when Ishamael said he was going to take Rand's soul) and Rand, using the Callandor, brushed it aside like cobwebs.



Also what is this about bias? Everyone is biased in that they tend to believe their own opinions more than somebody else's and there isn't really any other sort of bias that is applicable here.

[The Immortal One]

As to why Ish/Ba'alzamon would use Saidin or the properties of T'A'R rather than TP, I don't know, All I know is that if Ba'alzamon did NOT use Saidin then Rand could NOT have followed him without an ability RJ said does not exist (the ability to sense someone esle using TP) or that he has never since exhibited any trace of (being able to read the Pattern well enough to determine the destination of a TP Traveler.)

ETA: Following Ba'alzamon'suse of Saidin only requires an ability RAnd is known to posess and has used repeatedly: the ability to read and copy a weave from the residue it leaves behind.
So. We're left with the fact that either Rand did something he's never (as far as we can tell) done before or since, or Ishamael did something he's never (in the series at least) done before or since.

Perhaps we should just leave it at that - a mystery.

Except it wouldn't be Theoryland if we left a mystery without discussing and debating it to death!!!

Perhaps Rand saw Ishamael disappear and, using his instinctive knowledge of the One Power (or Lews Therin's memories if you prefer) reached out and Travelled to a place he has been before every time he has seen Ishamael - TAR. Besides he DID have his Ta'veren-ness to help him.

[Neilbert]

It's very simple at heart: Rand does NOT possess the power to sense, detect, notice, track, or copy things done with the TP.

Rand does not have the power to sense things done with the TP. If Ishamael made a flame with the True Power, Rand would be unable to sense that flame. He could not see it, he could not feel it. He could, obviously, not detect the flame. He isn't noticing it, for all intents and purposes it would not even be there. He couldn't track it, and he certainly couldn't make a non-existant flame of his own.

As to why Ish/Ba'alzamon would use Saidin or the properties of T'A'R rather than TP, I don't know,

Of course you don't.

without an ability RJ said does not exist (the ability to sense someone esle using TP)

Nobody has claimed that Rand can sense someone using TP.

or that he has never since exhibited any trace of (being able to read the Pattern well enough to determine the destination of a TP Traveler.)

Nobody made this claim either. The claim was that he might sense an opening to TAR'. The destination of TP Traveling is an entirely different game.

To solidify the case for TP usage in TAR:

The black cords that Rand cut on Asmodean represent the conduits by which the True Power is accessed.

Q: What happens when Rand and Asmodean have this conflict and ...
Q1: ... and Rand severs his ties with the Dark One ...
Q2: ... and Rand severs some black ties. Isn't that ...
RJ: That was cutting off his protection from the Taint and also cut off his ability, it was not like stilling them. It was cutting the ties that, most important to him, protected him from the Taint on saidin, so he could draw saidin all he wanted to and never worry about the Taint. But it was also those ties that represented his ability, or the conduits by which he could draw on the True Power. But it was not his ability to draw, it was not the same thing as stilling or severing, it was more like shielding.

Asmodean isn't the only guy with "black ties".

Black lines like steel wires seemed to run off from Ba'alzamon into the darkness mounding around him, vanishing into unimaginable heights and distances within that blackness.

Ishamael has black ties of his own. Of course, these are imaginary TAR ties that Ishy made up because he thinks they look cool.

WH, do you think your liberal usage of bold and italics make your arguments come across as more or less credible?

[Neilbert]

What WH is talking about is controlling TAR. How is that a stretch when we know even clothing (something taken into TAR with a channeler) can be changed and controlled? It's not.

No, Weird Harold is not talking about controlling TAR. Weird Harold is talking about Ishamael mimicking an aspect of his dark powers in the wold of dreams, for funsies and because Ishamaels dark powers don't work in TAR even though his flame faces does, and then calling out to the Dark One and unintentionally willing aid into being, despite being one of the most TAR adept people alive.

The real stretch here is to believe that Ishamael wouldn't take all the advantages of T'A'R.

Nobody claimed that Ishamael was not taking all the advantages of TAR.

Including, manipulating the darkness beyond just a protective barrier.

I don't even know how you came up with this, but it wasn't from anything I posted.

You will have to show exactly which scene you are refering to as Ishamael's real world use of the Darkness.

I already did. If you really want to see it, you can scroll up and look.

Please, I readily admit I'm biased. How about yourself?

What are your biases?

[GonzoTheGreat]

The Dark One calls Rand/LTT "the Dragon", and the name did just kind of appear out of nowhere, implying a will of the Pattern sort of deal. I think that the official title for Rand's soul is Dragon, and that champion of the Light is used because there are other champions of the Light for use in situations when the Dragon would not be appropriate.
Interesting idea, that LTT got his title in the same way that the Forsaken got theirs: because it was given to them by their enemies.

In the case of "Dragon" this can mean that the one that came up with it (the DO) had actually seen real dragons, while RJ's insistence there never were dragons in the WOT could still be true as well.

As for Rand not seeing the gateway form in the Stone of Tear: he did not see it form with the stairs he climbed to his final fight with Ishamael in TEOTW either. Nor did he notice it any of the many times that Lanfear pulled her appearing/disappearing act.

[Sodas]

What are your biases?
No, let's focus on yours.

No, Weird Harold is not talking about controlling TAR. Weird Harold is talking about Ishamael mimicking an aspect of his dark powers in the wold of dreams, for funsies and because Ishamaels dark powers don't work in TAR even though his flame faces does, and then calling out to the Dark One and unintentionally willing aid into being, despite being one of the most TAR adept people alive.
Opps, left your bias showing!

Btw, his flame face is not a dark power, it is the result of the saa.

[Weird Harold]

No, Weird Harold is not talking about controlling TAR. Weird Harold is talking about Ishamael mimicking an aspect of his dark powers in the wold of dreams, for funsies and because Ishamaels dark powers don't work in TAR even though his flame faces does, and then calling out to the Dark One and unintentionally willing aid into being, despite being one of the most TAR adept people alive.

No, WH is talking about a madman who used to be one of the most T'A'R adept people alive who feld in panic from Rand and Callandor not realising his subconscious is "mimicing" his dark powers.

His "flame face" BTW was his real, physical face and NOT an illusion -- see RJ's comments about the advanced stages of Saar. Even if it were not his real face, as long as he believed the illusion would hold in T'A'R, it would hold in T'A'R.

Does selectively quoting things make your points better, or did you just think that the "nor do I care" clause after "I don't know" was just irrelevant?

Whether Ba'alzamon could or did use TP in T'A'R is really irrelevant and only presented as a POSSIBLE reason why he might use Saidin instead of TP to create a gateway to T'A'R.

Rand and Egwene's viewpoints have demonstrated that the way to "create an opening to T'A'R to entire "in the flesh" is identical to opening a Gateway or Traveling to another point in the waking world.

If Rand sensed an "entry into T'A'R" being created and copied it after it closed then the only known ability he has to accomplish that feat involves reading Saidin residues and copying Saidin weaves.

Occam's Razor:

We know Rand can read Saidin Residues and reconstruct the weaves that left them.

We know Ishamael/Ba'alzamon has the ability to use Saidin whether he prefers to use TP or not.

We know, from RJ's repeated explanations, that noone except the person using it can detect the TP or TP weaves -- tangible and/or visible effects of TP weaves are not the weaves themselves.

Asserting that Rand followed a TP Traveler into T'A'R requires the invention of an ability that RJ said doesn't exist, yet the necessary elements required for Rand to follow a Saidin Traveler are known to exist.

Which conclusion follows Occam's Razor?

[Neilbert]

No, let's focus on yours.

Makes you uncomfortable doesn't it? It is one thing to admit you have biases, everyone does, it's part of being human, it is another thing entirely to actually confront those biases.

Opps, left your bias showing!

The claim has been made that Ishamael mimicked things that are happen to him in the real world using the properties of TAR. No reason has been given for why he would choose to do such a thing, so "for funsies" is a perfectly valid characterization of the argument.

Btw, his flame face is not a dark power, it is the result of the saa.

Again, you respond to a claim nobody ever made. I did not claim that the Saa (or the flame face) were a dark power.

Weird Harold advanced the claim that nothing directly associated with the Dark One is reflected in TAR.

Except that nothing else directly associated with the DO -- Shayol Gul, the Blight, etc -- registers in T'A'R.

The Saa are directly associated with the Dark One. They register just fine in TAR.

I'm biased against people ruling out other theories without reason.

Let's talk a little bit about this Sodas. You advanced a theory, and provided exactly zero evidence for it. Terez shot it down using the exact same amount of evidence. You might want to claim that Terez is being mean and dismissive of your ideas (and she is), but that's not really what is going on here. What you are saying is that Terez must indulge your every little idea, that she must give your very own idea more thought than you have given it yourself, and must disprove it. Thats not how this works. You make the claim, you back it up. It is not on anyone here to disprove what you say. As long as you provide no evidence or argument we are more then free to dismiss it out of hand.

[Neilbert]

No, WH is talking about a madman who used to be one of the most T'A'R adept people alive who feld in panic from Rand and Callandor not realising his subconscious is "mimicing" his dark powers.

This is a rather extraordinary claim, and as such requires some extraordinary evidence. Provide it.

His "flame face" BTW was his real, physical face and NOT an illusion -- see RJ's comments about the advanced stages of Saar.

Really now? Who said they were illusion? You are wrong though. The flame face isn't real and physical, if it were, the Saa would obscure vision and Ishamael would be blinded every time his eyes flared up.

Whether Ba'alzamon could or did use TP in T'A'R is really irrelevant and only presented as a POSSIBLE reason why he might use Saidin instead of TP to create a gateway to T'A'R.

You are backpedaling.

Rand and Egwene's viewpoints have demonstrated that the way to "create an opening to T'A'R to entire "in the flesh" is identical to opening a Gateway or Traveling to another point in the waking world.

This is just untrue. For starters, a gateway to TAR appears to go nowhere, because it opens to the same location just in a different world. They can't be identical, because when gating to TAR you don't choose a destination beyond "TAR".

If Rand sensed an "entry into T'A'R" being created and copied it after it closed then the only known ability he has to accomplish that feat involves reading Saidin residues and copying Saidin weaves.

Yes, if Rand copied Ishamael's weave then it must have been saidin. But he didn't copy it. He recognized that Ishamael was Traveling to TAR, and then used LTT's memories to make the weave of saidin to Travel on his own. He did not learn how to Travel to TAR from Ishamael, he did not need to, he already knew how.

Asserting that Rand followed a TP Traveler into T'A'R requires the invention of an ability that RJ said doesn't exist,

Again, no it does not. Rand does not need to see Ishamael's weaves, or copy them.

Try looking at it this way. Rand has been to TAR in the flesh many times. He has Traveled countless times, and is in fact a world expert when it comes to gateways. He knows how to make a gateway, and is intimately familiar with them. He knows the sensations involved. He has also encountered the True Power before, and is as knowledgeable about at as a non darkfriend can be. All of this is in fact true.

Now, Rand, the traveling expert, is in the presence of someone traveling to TAR. He feels reality twisting, and it registers to him that that is not the twisting of normal Traveling, or Skimming, this is the twisting of going to TAR. So he Travels to TAR on his own (no copying required) and theres Ishamael.

Does selectively quoting things make your points better, or did you just think that the "nor do I care" clause after "I don't know" was just irrelevant?

Bingo.

[Seeker]

Really? I don't remember so well, but I'm fairly certain that we saw a few gateways for Skimming in the first three books and I'm not sure that we actually saw ANYONE besides Ishamael Travelling at all.



As for Ishamael using the One Power in this instance ONLY for the purposes of luring Rand into TAR; well it seems strange - Ishamael didn't know that Rand can read and copy weaves then did he?

And even with Ishamael knowing and using the advantages of TAR was he insane enough to purposely confront Rand when he shows so much instinctive knowledge of the One Power and is channelling through the third most powerful Sa'Angreal ever made - especially when Rand has defeated him twice already without any assistance. Ishamael used one of his most powerful weaves on Rand (when Ishamael said he was going to take Rand's soul) and Rand, using the Callandor, brushed it aside like cobwebs.



Also what is this about bias? Everyone is biased in that they tend to believe their own opinions more than somebody else's and there isn't really any other sort of bias that is applicable here.

GUYS
It's a retcon. You're arguing and can't find an answer because it's a retcon. RJ changed the rules of the story as he wrote it.

I gave away all my old novels, but look at the chapter in EOTW where Rand fights first Aginor, then Ba'alzamon. He skims all right. But there's no gateway. He "steps" into this weird black void with a set of stairs that lead to nowhere.

He then "steps" from Ba'alzamon's dream chamber to Tarwin's Gap, where he crispy fries the trolloc army.

Read the section. The description makes it seem as if the sceneary changed around Rand. (Perfectly conducive with the concept of a character "appearing" from no where) There are no mentions of holes or doorways in the air. The way Jordan described it, travelling was teleporting, back then.

Also, in EOTW, while the company is in Caemlyn, Moiraine tells the group that even a Forsaken couldn't travel more than a few dozen trollocs at a time. And this is conducive to the concept of travelling as teleporting because it would be hard to mass teleport. With gateways, however, you just leave the gateway open.


In the Great Hunt, after Rand has been injured fighting Ba'alzamon, Min lies with him, keeping him warm. She mumbles something, and suddenly Lanfear is there, answering Min's question. Lanfear speecifies a bit, Min looks away and suddenly Lanfear is gone.

If Lanfear gated into the room, how come Min didn't see the gateway or hear it? If Lanfear gated in to the basement of the the house, then walked into the room, how come Min didn't hear her footsteps as she entered.

Ishy teleported into TAR and Rand followed because
a) In the early books all travelling, whether done with the OP or the TP was a form of teleporting.
b) At the time, there probably wasn't a rule that channelers couldn't sense the TP. In fact, in EOTW, Rand senses a white chord (OP) trailing off from Aginor and a black chord (TP?) trailing off from Ba alzamon. Jordan has probably told people that Rand wasn't sensing the TP, but that TOO is likely a retcon.

It's a retcon.
Travelling used to be a form of Night-Crawler like teleporting. That's how RJ conceived of it in the early half of this series. Why he changed it, I don't know. But he dd.

So you can't use the current rules to explain the older books because those books weren't written with these rules in mind. They're going to seem inconsistent.

And, Terez, don't even bother. Cuz, I'm not going to respond on this topic after this.

[Terez]

Terez, don't even bother. Cuz, I'm not going to respond on this topic after this. What on earth gave you the idea that I post here for you? :)

I gave away all my old novels, but look at the chapter in EOTW where Rand fights first Aginor, then Ba'alzamon. He skims all right. But there's no gateway. He "steps" into this weird black void with a set of stairs that lead to nowhere. You've been around long enough to be familiar with the TAR Pocket theory (http://www.theoryland.com/chronicles.php?user=eclipse&page=g), right? The Eye was a pocket of Tel'aran'rhiod, which is why it is found by need, just like things are found by need in Tel'aran'rhiod, and also why its location is mutable, and also why the normal rules seem to be somewhat suspended there (it is not a part of the Blight, despite always being in the Blight).

Also, in EOTW, while the company is in Caemlyn, Moiraine tells the group that even a Forsaken couldn't travel more than a few dozen trollocs at a time. And this is conducive to the concept of travelling as teleporting because it would be hard to mass teleport. With gateways, however, you just leave the gateway open. Yeah, except that you can't transport Shadowspawn by gateway. Which shows that Moiraine had no idea what she was talking about. :)

As for the rest, I offered up the possibility back in post #168 (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=17804&postcount=168) that:

RJ said that it was True Power Traveling. Rand sensed it anyway, and later Nynaeve sensed Rand doing the same thing, though she had no sense of where he went. That much is clear - the rest is educated guesses. Maybe Nynaeve's just not as good as Rand. The only real reason the Pattern-reading comes up as a possibility is that we have no idea how it's done. Maybe it's like that. Who knows? Maybe RJ didn't have it all worked out so well at that stage in the game. ;) This is Theoryland, though, where we try to pretend that RJ didn't make mistakes and that everything actually makes sense, hence the TAR Pocket theory and many other theories. And your examples are pitiful considering that there's a much better one you overlooked...

[Sodas]

Let's talk a little bit about this Sodas. You advanced a theory, and provided exactly zero evidence for it.
Sure, let's talk about that exact zero amount of evidence.

I advanced AN EXPLANATION as to why one may not be able to enter TAR with the TP. My theories on the subject can be found elsewhere, in other threads over the years. Excuse me for not pointing out tons of evidence every single time we talk about the same thing for the 100th time.

Terez shot it down using the exact same amount of evidence.
Good for her.

You might want to claim that Terez is being mean and dismissive of your ideas (and she is), but that's not really what is going on here.
Mean? LOL! I don't know where you get that idea. I find Terez hard headed and dismissive, but not mean spirited. I actually appreciate what Terez brings to this board - so this is in no way the case.

What you are saying is that Terez must indulge your every little idea, that she must give your very own idea more thought than you have given it yourself, and must disprove it.
If it was a little idea, it wouldn't have spawned countless threads on the subject. This conversation has gone round and round before, so it's laughable to suggest I've barely given it any thought. Maybe you would know that if you had been around here long enough.

Thats not how this works. You make the claim, you back it up.
Oh really... you'd think after nearly 10 years reading this site, and 8 years of posting on the forums, I would know that! Thank you! /snark

Is that why you make this claim -

"He feels reality twisting, and it registers to him that that is not the twisting of normal Traveling, or Skimming, this is the twisting of going to TAR."

- without ANY EVIDENCE that the TP twists the pattern when Traveling?

From the WOT FAQ:
"It is possible to do a Traveling-like thing with the TP, by "stepping outside the Pattern," as the Watcher (a.k.a. Ishy) does in [ACOS: 20, Patterns Within Patterns, 358]. At a Brisbane signing in 1999, RJ confirmed that Ishy's strange Gateway in the TEOTW Prologue is due to his use of the TP [report by William Carew]."

TP-LIKE-Traveling is done by stepping outside the pattern, not twisting it. The TP never modifies the Pattern even. Fail as you do to provide any evidence for your own claims, I say that is hypocritical.

You have taken this too personally. Terez can defend herself.

[Neilbert]

You have taken this too personally.

I advanced AN EXPLANATION as to why one may not be able to enter TAR with the TP. My theories on the subject can be found elsewhere, in other threads over the years.

If it was a little idea, it wouldn't have spawned countless threads on the subject. This conversation has gone round and round before, so it's laughable to suggest I've barely given it any thought. Maybe you would know that if you had been around here long enough.

Oh really... you'd think after nearly 10 years reading this site, and 8 years of posting on the forums, I would know that! Thank you! /snark

You have made this about you.

Is that why you make this claim -

"He feels reality twisting, and it registers to him that that is not the twisting of normal Traveling, or Skimming, this is the twisting of going to TAR."

- without ANY EVIDENCE that the TP twists the pattern when Traveling?

You and Weird Harold have constantly ignored the distinction between Traveling to another location in the real world and Traveling to TAR. This is as absurd as ignoring any distinctions between Skimming and Traveling.

There is minimal information on the True Power, and there is absolutely nothing to contradict the statement that it twists or bends reality when traveling to TAR.

[Sodas]

You have made this about you.
No, you want to make this about me instead of your lack of evidence. Easier to attack me than to answer the questions, right?

You and Weird Harold have constantly ignored the distinction between Traveling to another location in the real world and Traveling to TAR.
Attack attack attack. We don't ignore squat. We see that what we do know about TP and Saidin trumps any hypothetical existance of TP-like-traveling to TAR that we don't know.

You can keep saying that there is no evidence that TP-like-Traveling to TAR is different and could replicate twisting in order to enter. But lack of evidence is NOT evidence in itself.

It certaintly doesn't justify rulling out what TP method for Traveling really constitutes, or the lack of TAR recognition for the Blight/SG, or Shadowspawn failing to Travel....

[Seeker]

There's one word that I feel is the crux of this issue.

This is Theoryland, though, where we try to pretend that RJ didn't make mistakes and that everything actually makes sense, hence the TAR Pocket theory and many other theories. And your examples are pitiful considering that there's a much better one you overlooked..

I'd prefer to not try to pretend anything.

You just admitted it, the reason I lost much of my interest in these boards. You're trying to pretend RJ didn't make mistakes. You even invented a theory just to explain away inconsistencies in the man's writing.

The Eye is a pocket of TAR? Possible. Even tempting, though it does imply all the characters went there in the flesh and doesn't explain away instances of non-gate teleporting that didn't take place at the eye.

Like when Lews Theirn teleported to dragonmount? Described in the exact same fashion as the way one "travelled" at the Eye of the World. Terez, before you started posting here, there were numerous factions claiming that gateways weren't the only method of travelling. So a lot of people got the impression that teleporting was going on in the early books.

But, most importantly, it's the motivation for your T'A'R pocket theory I don't like. You just said up there, you're trying to pretend the man doesn't make mistakes, rather than just admitting that sometimes his writing is inconsistent.

It's still a good story (or was) even with the inconsistencies.

[Terez]

I'd prefer to not try to pretend anything. Good for you, then. :)

You just admitted it, the reason I lost much of my interest in these boards. You're trying to pretend RJ didn't make mistakes. You even invented a theory just to explain away inconsistencies in the man's writing. I didn't invent anything; these theories have been kicking around Theoryland for years. I showed in the post that I linked you that I'm perfectly willing to admit that RJ made mistakes, and did so several posts ago. Did you notice that no one accepted that suggestion as a valid possibility?

Like when Lews Theirn teleported to dragonmount? Described in the exact same fashion as the way one "travelled" at the Eye of the World. Terez, before you started posting here, there were numerous factions claiming that gateways weren't the only method of travelling. So a lot of people got the impression that teleporting was going on in the early books. I'm aware of all that, but RJ's the one that said teleporting was a characteristic of True Power Traveling. Not me. ;)

But, most importantly, it's the motivation for your T'A'R pocket theory I don't like. You just said up there, you're trying to pretend the man doesn't make mistakes, rather than just admitting that sometimes his writing is inconsistent. Stop trying to pretend that it's my theory, and stop trying to pretend that I'm not the one unwilling to admit that RJ didn't have it all figured out, lol. I did that a long time ago. Everyone else wanted to pretend like it all made sense, which was fine with me, cause I enjoy pointless discussions. :)

[Seeker]

Good for you, then. :)

I didn't invent anything; these theories have been kicking around Theoryland for years. I showed in the post that I linked you that I'm perfectly willing to admit that RJ made mistakes, and did so several posts ago. Did you notice that no one accepted that suggestion as a valid possibility?

Of course it's a valid possibility. In long fiction it's almost an inevitability. Jordan retcons to excess, but EVERYONE does it a little bit. Not all retcon's are poorly accepted by the audience either.



I'm aware of all that, but RJ's the one that said teleporting was a characteristic of True Power Traveling. Not me. ;)

Yeah, that's Jordan blowing smoke up everyone's ass. His lightside characters teleported. He knows it, we know it. And we don't care. Retconning happens.


Stop trying to pretend that it's my theory, and stop trying to pretend that I'm not the one unwilling to admit that RJ didn't have it all figured out, lol. I did that a long time ago. Everyone else wanted to pretend like it all made sense, which was fine with me, cause I enjoy pointless discussions. :)

I know, but this board is a little bit nuts don't you think? More that this series is a little bit nuts. Every half of a book, RJ comes out with some new power. It was only a matter of time before they started contradicting one another.

************
Since I enjoy a good debate, I like to point out that arguing all this is pointless since Jordan - or Sanderson now - might just up and change the rules on us.

[Neilbert]

Easier to attack me than to answer the questions, right?

What questions? What have I not addressed?

I know you have trouble reading my posts.

You will have to show exactly which scene you are refering to as Ishamael's real world use of the Darkness.

We see that what we do know about TP and Saidin trumps any hypothetical existance of TP-like-traveling to TAR that we don't know.

We know that you can do similar things with the True Power and the One Power, per RJ. Complete inaccess to the World of Dreams does not, in my book, qualify as the ability to do similar things.

We have strong evidence that Ishamael exclusively chooses to use the True Power.

You can keep saying that there is no evidence that TP-like-Traveling to TAR is different and could replicate twisting in order to enter. But lack of evidence is NOT evidence in itself.

Shosh001 asks: Mr. Jordan, you've outdone yourself with A Crown of Swords. My question concerns the True Power. How is it distinguishable from the One Power?
RJ: It's fairly self-evident from the book. What can be done with the True Power is very similar to what can be done with the One Power. Except that where the One Power is drawn from the True Source and is the force that drives the Wheel of Time and powers the universe, the so-called True Power is drawn from the Dark One. There are limits in the same ways there are limits to the One Power. It would be very long if I went into it too much, but some of those limits and costs of drawing on the Dark One are shown in A Crown of Swords.

When RJ says that you can do similar things with the One and True Powers, and you make the claim that you can not do similar things with them, the onus is on you to back it up.

It certaintly doesn't justify rulling out what TP method for Traveling really constitutes,

Yeah, it does. You don't know what being in the presence of a hole being torn in the universe would feel like from the perspective of anyone not doing the tearing. There is no reason to step outside of the pattern when Traveling to TAR anyways, TAR and the Pattern overlap.

or the lack of TAR recognition for the Blight/SG

Only interview quote I've seen on the matter says that the Blight is another dimension, and that is why it is not reflected in TAR. It makes sense if you consider how the Blight expands and retracts.

, or Shadowspawn failing to Travel....

Whatever prevents Shadowspawn from Traveling does not prevent Ishamael from Traveling. Whatever prevents Trollocs from Traveling to TAR should not prevent Ishamael from Traveling to TAR.

Now, you are making the claim that the Shadows power can not affect TAR. I could spend time refuting this, or I could introduce you to my friend Slayer. He Travels to and from TAR at will because of gifts that the Dark One gave him. The Dark One's power can affect TAR. This is fact.

[Terez]

I know, but this board is a little bit nuts don't you think?
We have never denied it, have we?

More that this series is a little bit nuts. Every half of a book, RJ comes out with some new power. It was only a matter of time before they started contradicting one another.
That's not really all that accurate - the contradictions are, for the most part, limited to the first few books.

The main reason I continue to debate this despite its pointlessness is that I'm pretty sure that RJ intended, from Ishamael's "I follow a different Power now" quote, for Ishamael to be using the True Power, which he had not yet named, all the time. And because I think it's ridiculous to suggest that the One Power and the True Power have never come into contact before, when so much of what is done defensively and offensively with the Power involves the contact of the Powers involved.

[Weird Harold]

You and Weird Harold have constantly ignored the distinction between Traveling to another location in the real world and Traveling to TAR. This is as absurd as ignoring any distinctions between Skimming and Traveling.

Because there IS no distinction"

She [Egwene] very nearly threw up her hands. He was as eager to be rid of her as he had been of the Aes Sedai. "My own feet will do well enough, thank you." A laundry basket, indeed! "I wouldn’t have to worry if you told me how you step from Caemlyn to here whenever you want." She did not understand why asking should rasp so, yet it did. "I know you can’t teach me, but if you told me how, maybe I could work out how to do it with saidar."

Instead of the joke at her expense she more than half-expected, he took the end of her shawl in both hands. "The Pattern," he said. "Caemlyn," one finger on his left hand tented the wool, "and Cairhien." A finger on the other hand made a tent, and he brought the two tents together. "I bend the Pattern and bore a hole from one to the other. I don’t know what I bore through, but there’s no space between one end of the hole and the other." He let the shawl drop. "Does that help?"

Chewing her lip, she frowned at the shawl sourly. It did not help at all. Just the thought of tearing a hole in the Pattern made her queasy. She had hoped it would be like something she had worked out concerning Tel’aran’rhiod. Not that she ever meant to use it, of course, but she had had all that time on her hands, and the Wise Ones kept grumbling about the Aes Sedai asking how to enter in the flesh. She thought the way would be to create – a similarity seemed the only way to describe it – a similarity between the real world and its reflection in the World of Dreams. That should make a place where it was possible to simply step from one to the other. If Rand’s method of travel had seemed even slightly the same, she would have been willing to try, but this... Saidar did as you wanted as long as you remembered it was infinitely stronger than you and had to be guided gently; try to force the wrong thing, and you were dead or burned out before you could scream.

"Rand, are you sure there isn’t any sense of making things the same... or... " She did not know how to put it, but in any case, he shook his head before she trailed off.

"That sounds like changing the weave of the Pattern. I think it would tear me apart if I so much as tried. I bore a hole." He poked a finger at her to demonstrate.

Each power has it's own unique way of accomplishing a task and that the TP isn't mentioned in this passage -- we can conclusively say that for Saidar there is absolutely no distinction between traveling from place to place an traveling to T'A'R.

If we accept that each power can duplicate what can be done with the other two by using different underlying principles -- Create a Similarity, Fold and Poke a Hole, Rip the Pattern -- then "Traveling to T'A'R" and "Entering T'A'R in the Flesh" are exactly equivalent statements.

IF T'A'R can be reached using the TP, then it is done the same way as Traveling with the TP -- which does NOT involve "twisting" or any other phenomenon other than "a hole in the air" that Rand is known to be able to detect or copy.

[Seeker]

We have never denied it, have we?


That's not really all that accurate - the contradictions are, for the most part, limited to the first few books.

The main reason I continue to debate this despite its pointlessness is that I'm pretty sure that RJ intended, from Ishamael's "I follow a different Power now" quote, for Ishamael to be using the True Power, which he had not yet named, all the time.

Oh, that I agree with completely. It's quite obvious the first time someone reads the prologue that Ishamael is using power that comes from his dark master. After all, he can heal Lews Therin when other Aes Sedai can't.

I believed in "the dark power" long before I ever heard of Theoryland. And I was surprised it took til book 7 for it to be named officially.

[Terez]

Right, and with the whole Shadow accompanying him thing going on...that's the ultimate manifestation of the consequences of using the True Power. I love listening to the audio tape of RJ at Budapest (https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=dcjspjqg_101f6s22v73&hl=en), talking about the saa. (I'll email the audios to anyone who wants them.) "...and eventually the effect is to become....all fire eyes..." lol...and he's telling it in this dramatic voice: "...and eventually, if you are not given immortality by the Dark One, you are DEAD." :D

[Sodas]

We know that you can do similar things with the True Power and the One Power, per RJ. Complete inaccess to the World of Dreams does not, in my book, qualify as the ability to do similar things.
There is a difference between similiar and exact.

TP-like-Travel is similar to OP Travel in that you can move great distances instantly.

However, it's not even in the same category metaphysically when it comes to the pattern. OP Travel uses the pattern, TP does not. Therefore, they are not exact.

So they are similiar, but not exact.

This where you missed my naunce. I'm saying that even if TP could be used to enter TAR, it doesn't mean it neccessary looks exactly like it. It might be similiar, but not exact.

This all ignores how broad an answer RJ gave in that quote. RJ more likely was refering to the TP having similiar elemental traits and such to the OP ~ rather than explicitedly stating that all the weaves should be considered the same.

Originally Posted by Sodas
It certaintly doesn't justify rulling out what TP method for Traveling really constitutes,


Yeah, it does. You don't know what being in the presence of a hole being torn in the universe would feel like from the perspective of anyone not doing the tearing.
Actually, it's simple.

If you can't sense the TP use,
And you can't see a hole being torn in the universe,
then there is NOTHING to feel or see!

[tworiverswoman]

You're remembering stuff that didn't happen, Tru. :pWhich stuff was I misremembering? If it was the comment that the balefire streams contacting knocked them on their asses, would you say why that's misremembering? If it's something else, I don't see anything else stated as a fact. Post #134 (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=17581&postcount=134)


TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed. Sounds like "knocking them on their asses" to me...

[Terez]

Which stuff was I misremembering?
You should have known it was in reference to the one statement you made that you were openly unsure about:
Balefire itself has been used in weapon form DIRECTLY at another individual who was using Balefire right back. We've seen it so, I believe, in the fight with Rahvin. Can someone find any descriptions of this. Were there any oddball reactions?
Didn't happen. :p

[tworiverswoman]

good enough -- I just went looking through that fight, and, while both characters used Balefire pretty damn freely, they didn't use it simultaneously.

[Terez]

good enough -- I just went looking through that fight, and, while both characters used Balefire pretty damn freely, they didn't use it simultaneously.
Well, actually, they did use it simultaneously once, but their streams of balefire didn't come into contact.

[Sodas]

When RJ says that you can do similar things with the One and True Powers, and you make the claim that you can not do similar things with them, the onus is on you to back it up.
Ok, here goes.

From Budapest Interviews,
Q: You’ve wrote somewhere that Moridin used the True Power and he stepped out of the Pattern or something like that.

RJ: No, he’s made a hole in the Pattern as a way of Traveling which uses the True Power, which is a different thing. If you notice as far back as the Prologue of the Eye of the World, when Ishamael Traveled in to meet Lews Therin, who was mad, the description does not match the Traveling that we see later. It’s because at that point, Ishamael is using the True Power, which produces a different sort of effect for Traveling. It is a different method of Traveling than either men or women use with saidin and saidar.

Q: The descriptions are quite similar when he arrived by Travel with saidin. You also say 'bore a hole trough the Pattern', and for the True Power, I think in one instance, 'ripping a hole in the Pattern'. And in one other instance you wrote that he stepped back inside the Pattern.

RJ: It’s similar. Similar, but it’s not the same thing. It’s why it produces that fading in and fading out effect.
Emphasis added : Mine.

Like I said, you were quoting RJ talking generically about the TP and OP. Here, we have a specific statement saying that they are NOT the same, particularly in reguards to Travel and how the TP effects the pattern while doing so. It details specifically, how Travel with the OP produces a fading in and out effect, not twisting.

The onus is now on you to admit you were wrong ... but I won't wait with baited breath.

[Terez]

So, yeah. Thanks for re-emphasizing what we've been saying all along. :rolleyes:

[The Immortal One]

As for Rand not seeing the gateway form in the Stone of Tear: he did not see it form with the stairs he climbed to his final fight with Ishamael in TEOTW either. Nor did he notice it any of the many times that Lanfear pulled her appearing/disappearing act.
Well, we all seem to have noticed that the final fight with Ishamael in the Eye of the World was strange in many ways.

As for Lanfear pulling her 'appearing/disappearing act' we never actually saw her appearing or disappearing - it always took place just out of sight when sombody looked away for an instant. It might be argued that the 'instant' was not long enough to make a gateway but, really, there are other ways to disappear (like a Mist of Mirrors, or that invisibility weave which I think is just a variation of the Mist of Mirrors) or perhaps a touch of Compulsion, why they looked away for that instant, made them look away for just long enough.



Whether Ba'alzamon could or did use TP in T'A'R is really irrelevant and only presented as a POSSIBLE reason why he might use Saidin instead of TP to create a gateway to T'A'R.
I suppose it's possible, but to me it seems unlikely.

As for all the arguements about whether or not you can use the True Power in TAR or not - they are truly pointless. If Ishamael believed he could; then he could. There wasn't even any reason for Rand to believe he couldn't and there was nobody else there.


Occam's Razor:

We know Rand can read Saidin Residues and reconstruct the weaves that left them.

We know Ishamael/Ba'alzamon has the ability to use Saidin whether he prefers to use TP or not.

We know, from RJ's repeated explanations, that noone except the person using it can detect the TP or TP weaves -- tangible and/or visible effects of TP weaves are not the weaves themselves.

Asserting that Rand followed a TP Traveler into T'A'R requires the invention of an ability that RJ said doesn't exist, yet the necessary elements required for Rand to follow a Saidin Traveler are known to exist.

Which conclusion follows Occam's Razor?
Since when have we at Theoryland looked for the 'simplest answer'??

I agree; if Ishamael used Saidin then there would be a simple answer to our debate, but I still find it unlikely that Ishamael used Saidin when he always uses the True Power for everything else.


Try looking at it this way. Rand has been to TAR in the flesh many times. He has Traveled countless times, and is in fact a world expert when it comes to gateways. He knows how to make a gateway, and is intimately familiar with them. He knows the sensations involved. He has also encountered the True Power before, and is as knowledgeable about at as a non darkfriend can be. All of this is in fact true.
To be fair; Rand may be as close to a Travelling expert as a Third Ager can be NOW, at the time of Book 11; but back at that time (at the Stone of Tear) he wasn't.


Also, in EOTW, while the company is in Caemlyn, Moiraine tells the group that even a Forsaken couldn't travel more than a few dozen trollocs at a time. And this is conducive to the concept of travelling as teleporting because it would be hard to mass teleport. With gateways, however, you just leave the gateway open.
Like Terez said; Moiraine didn't have any idea what was involved in Travelling, Shadowspawn, or the strength of the Forsaken. Only what she had heard in stories, which wasn't really much more than the Two Rivers folk knew. One of the thousand loopholes in the Three Oaths.


cause I enjoy pointless discussions. :)
:D :D :D

[Terez]

To be fair; Rand may be as close to a Travelling expert as a Third Ager can be NOW, at the time of Book 11; but back at that time (at the Stone of Tear) he wasn't.
I think Neil was trying to invoke Lews Therin here. He does that a lot. :)

[Weird Harold]

I agree; if Ishamael used Saidin then there would be a simple answer to our debate, but I still find it unlikely that Ishamael used Saidin when he always uses the True Power for everything else.


Everyone keeps making that assertion, "he always uses the True Power for everything else," but how do we know that to be true. We know Moridin uses the TP almost exclusively since he was named Nae'blis, but we're talking about Ishamael/Ba'alzamon here and a situation where a request to use the TP to flee from Rand may well not have been granted by the DO.

Why he used Saidin to fall back into T'A'R is far less important than the simple case that if he hadn't used Saidin Rand could not have followed him by copying his weave. Since Rand did detect his weaving and copy it, Ish had to be using Saidin.

[Terez]

He's got the Shadow going everywhere with him. I'd be EXTREMELY surprised if he had to ask permission...and again, Rand did NOT copy his weave.

[Weird Harold]

He's got the Shadow going everywhere with him. I'd be EXTREMELY surprised if he had to ask permission...and again, Rand did NOT copy his weave.
Whether he copied it iexactly or just remembered how to Travel to T'A'R, he detected Ishamael's Traveling and you've yet to convince me that he used some mysterious power that he only had at that moment.

If Rand could detect it, it was Saidin, because neither Rand nor anyone else can detect TP use and he's shown no evidence of being able to read the Pattern.

PS: It wasn't the Shadow effect he would need permission for, it was the TP needed to open a gateway to T'A'R so he could flee. Cowardice in the face of the enemy isn't the k ind of thing the DO is likely to approve of. :D

[Crispin's Crispian]

TITLE: Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 41 - A Crown of Swords

Without a thought, his free hand rose, and balefire shot upward, a bar of liquid white fire slicing across the wave sinking toward them. Dimly he was aware of another bar of pale solid fire rising from the other man's hand that was not clasping his, a bar slashing the opposite way from his. The two touched.

Head ringing like a struck gong, Rand convulsed, saidin and the Void shattering. Everything was doubled in his eyes, the balconies, the chunks of stone lying about the floor. There seemed to be a pair of the other man overlapping one another, each clutching his head between two hands. Blinking, Rand searched for Mashadar. The wave of shining mist was gone; a glow remained in the balconies above, but dimming, receding, as Rand's eyes began to clear. Even mindless Mashadar fled balefire, it seemed.

Rereading this reposted quote gave me another idea. Maybe the whole mind-sharing thing came about because Rand and Moridin were holding hands when their balefire streams hit each other. The more I think about it, the cooler this whole plot thread is becoming.