yet another Rand is Insane thread...

[WinespringBrother]

TEOTW: CHAPTER: 51 - Against the Shadow
I WILL TAKE NO PART. ONLY THE CHOSEN ONE CAN DO WHAT MUST BE DONE, IF HE WILL.

So, is Rand hearing the voice of the Creator, in his one on-screen appearance? Or is it something else? Perhaps an early onset of LTT's voice, with LTT being quite deluded? This would imply though that either the taint wasn't the only cause of the barriers breaking down between Rand/LTT, since Rand had hardly channeled enough by that time to suffer the taint, or he was already going mad from his very brief usage (1 or 2 times) of tainted saidin.

Thoughts?

[Sarevok]

uhm... context of that quote? it may be silly of me, but I don't remember it...

[Terez]

lol...it's from the battle at Tarwin's Gap in The Eye of the World.

As for WSB's question....no, I don't think Lews Therin, or madness. Too early for either. My guess is that it's the Creator, for some reason popping up to remind everyone that he doesn't interfere. :rolleyes: But I could be wrong...

[Davian93]

lol...it's from the battle at Tarwin's Gap in The Eye of the World.

As for WSB's question....no, I don't think Lews Therin, or madness. Too early for either. My guess is that it's the Creator, for some reason popping up to remind everyone that he doesn't interfere. :rolleyes: But I could be wrong...

That would be my opinion as well. Its gotta be the Creator.

[Terez]

It could be the Dark One. Either is believable but the Creator is I think more believable. Oddly...

[WinespringBrother]

The reason I bring it up, is that this is the first time Rand hears a strange voice talking to him in his mind. It could be RJ doing some foreshadowing of LTT, but that doesn't definitely say one way or the other if it was the Creator or not. But since LTT was presumably the Chosen One in his age, did he ever hear the Creator's (or other's) voices?

Date: 2004-04-27 | Location: Wotmania
Type: Online | Questioner: Unknown
Q: Did the Creator talk to Rand at the end of Eye of The World?
A: RAFO.

[Terez]

Problem is, Rand's not hallucinating when he "hears" Lews Therin's voice, no matter which Lews Therin theory you buy. According to one theory, Lews Therin is really there talking to him. According to the other, Rand is talking to himself and pretending that he's talking to Lews Therin so that he doesn't have to admit that the memories are his own from a past life.

Even if it was hallucination, you'd expect a logical progression, and having a huge hallucination like that in the first book, and then not having any for a long time, only to start small 4 books later and then get into that gradual progression that you would expect....it's not logical.

The voice was somebody. I honestly don't care if it was the Creator or the Dark One, though. :D

[WinespringBrother]

I don't believe that Rand is hallucinating when he hears voices, because there is too much evidence to the contrary - such as Rand learning webs and language from LTT that he had no way of otherwise knowing about.

The quote does imply something interesting IMO, if it is indeed the Creator, and that is the Creator is paying attention, even if he is not participating. It's obvious that the Creator spoke up at a time where his new Chosen One is awakening to his role and would be a good time to tell Rand to get his act together "IF HE WILL". Its a good illustration also, for all the references to the Creator by various folks (such as Torval's quote, or Rand thinking of Logain's doubts, and Ishidin's voice in Rand's mind) as a non-actor in events.

TITLE: Path of Daggers
CHAPTER: 14 - Message from the M'Hael
"That would be wondrous," Torval said in a near whisper, "but how could anyone short of the Creator or ... ?" He trailed off uneasily.

TITLE: Crossroads of Twilight
CHAPTER: 24 - A Strengthening Storm
Irritably, Rand pushed his sleeves down and dropped into a chair. What he had done made no matter to Logain. The man knew saidin was clean, but he could not believe Rand or any man had actually done the cleansing. Did he think the Creator had decided to stretch out a merciful hand after three thousand years of suffering? The Creator had made the world and then left humankind to make of it what they would, a heaven or the Pit of Doom by their choosing. The Creator had made many worlds, watched each flower or die, and gone on to make endless worlds beyond. A gardener did not weep for each blossom that fell.

Also, any idea if Rand thought it was the Creator?

[Terez]

Rand wasn't thinking much at all during that scene...he essentially shut off his brain when he started channeling, so as to ignore the obvious. :D

[The Seeker]

I believe it was the creator but like Terez i really don't care whether it was the DO or the Creator makes little difference.

[irerancincpkc]

I've always thought it was the Creator, but I guess if it was the DO, it wouldn't make a huge difference.

[Yuri33]

It was the Creator. The DO can only be heard at Shayul Ghul.

[Ieyasu]

Ive always wondered why Rand has never thought of this incident more... perhaps he has off screen, or perhaps he dicussed it with fel, or the finns... but its always bothered me that he has never once (on page) thought about this at all.

[Terez]

There are a great many things that Rand doesn't think about, since Winternight a couple of years ago...

[Ieyasu]

There are a great many things that Rand doesn't think about, since Winternight a couple of years ago...

Well.. we dont know the specifics of his conversation with fel, which very well could include this particular incident. And while we know a little of his finn information, we are not aware of those specifics either... so it could very well have occured off page.

It used to bother me that he never thought of Ishy when the BF streams crossed either... but that was rectified pretty recently as well, showing he had given it plenty of thought off page as well.

Perhaps there will be another such scene regarding this incident in AMOL.

[Terez]

Actually, when he thinks about it in Knife of Dreams, that was the first time he recognized Moridin, so obviously he had no reason to connect his sickness to the man in Shadar Logoth before. He obviously had made the subconscious connection before, but it was obviously subconscious, because that awareness was expressed through Lews Therin:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
PROLOGUE - Snow

Rand spun around so fast that she stepped back, and even Dobraine shifted on his feet, a swordman’s move. No, they were not sure of him at all. “He traps lightning?” he asked quietly.

Comprehension flooded her blunt face, and she waved her hands in front of her. “No, no! Not like…like that!” Not like you, she had almost said. “It is a thing of wires and wheels and big clay jars and the Light knows what. He calls it lightning, and I saw a rat jump down on one of the jars once, on the metal rods sticking out of the top. It certainly looked struck by lightning.” A hopeful tone entered her voice. “I can make him stop, if you wish.”

He tried to picture someone riding on a kit, but the image was ludicrous. Catching lightning in jars was beyond his ability to imagine. And yet…”Let them go on as before, Headmistress. Who knows? Maybe one of these inventions will turn out to be important. If any work as claimed, give the inventor a reward.”

Dobraine’s leathery, sun-darkened face looked dubious, though he almost managed to conceal it. Idrien bowed her head in sullen assent, and even curtsied, but plainly she thought he was asking to let pigs fly if they could.

Rand was not certain he disagreed. Then again, maybe one of the pigs would grow wings. The wagon had moved. He wanted very badly to leave something behind, something to help the world survive the new Breaking the Prophecies said he would bring. The trouble was, he had no idea what that might be, save for the schools themselves. Who knew what a marvel could do? Light, he wanted to build something that could last.

I thought I could build , Lews Therin murmured in his head. I was wrong. We are not builders, not you, or I, or the other one. We are destroyers. Destroyers.

Rand shivered, and scrubbed his hands through his hair. The other one? At times, the voice sounded sanest when it was the most mad. They were watching him, Dobraine very nearly hiding uncertainty, Idrien making no effort to. Straightening as if nothing was wrong, he drew two slim packets from inside his coat. Both carried the Dragon in a long lump of red wax on the outside. The belt buckle he was not wearing at the moment served for an impressive signet. The problem of course started in The Path of Daggers, but Rand was trying desperately not to think about it then, as we see clearly in the scene where Osan'gar/Dashiva finally can't stand it any more and risks revealing himself to bring Rand's attention to the weirdness of the Power around Ebou Dar, which Rand was avoiding thinking about as well. Here's the "we three" quote from later:

TITLE - Winter's Heart
CHAPTER: 22 - Out of Thin Air

Suddenly a wave of dizziness hit him, a murky face filling his vision for an instant, and he staggered against a passerby. Taller than Rand himself, in bright green livery, the yellow-haired man shifted the large basket he was carrying and fended Rand off gently. A long, puckered scar ran down the side of his sun-dark face. Bowing his head, he murmured an apology and hurried on.

Righting himself, Rand growled a curse under his breath.

You destroyed them already, Lews Therin whispered in his head.

Now you have someone else to destroy, and not beforetime. How many will we three kill before the end, I wonder.

Shut up! Rand thought fiercely, but cackling, derisive laughter answered him. It was not the encounter with an Aielman that upset him. He had seen many since coming to Far Madding. For some reason, hundreds of the Aiel who fled after learning the truth of their history had ended up there, attempting to follow the Way of the Leaf when they had no more idea of what that entailed except that they were supposed to be lifelong gai'shain. He was not even worried about the dizziness, or whose face it was that he half saw when it struck. Ahead of him, a coach drawn by six grays clattered through the stream of sedan chairs and hurrying folk in livery, and men and women darting in and out of the shops, but there was no sign of a red coat. He smacked a gloved fist into his palm in irritation. Here, Rand tried to suppress the curiosity about the murky face because he was obssessed with following Rochaid. He didn't have time to think about it, so therefore he didn't, but it's an important issue, so it floats to the surface anyway. Through Lews Therin. His moaning about having already destroyed the Aiel comes to the surface through Lews Therin as well.

When he finally reasons it out, he appears to do it on his own, using Lews Therin's memories:

TITLE - Knife of Dreams
CHAPTER: 18 - News for the Dragon

“They’re well.” he said, calmly ignoring a piercing look from Cadsuane. She did not know everything, and he intended to keep it that way. Calm on the surface, content, blowing smoke rings. Inside was another matter. Where are they? he thought angrily, pushing down another appearance of the colors. That was as easy as breathing, now. I need them, and they’re off for a day at the Ansaline Gardens.

Abruptly another image was floating his head, a man’s face, and his breath caught. For the first time, it came without any dizziness. For the first time, he could see it clearly in the moments before it vanished. A blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than himself. Or rather, he saw it clearly for the first time in a long while. It was the face of the stranger who had saved his life in Shadar Logoth when he fought Sammael. Worse…

He was aware of me, Lews Therin said. He sounded sane for a change. Sometimes he did, but the madness always returned eventually. How can a face appearing in my mind be aware of me?

If you don’t know, how do yon expect me to? Rand thought. But I was aware of him, as well. It had been a strange sensation, as if he were… touching… the other man somehow. Only not physically. A residue hung on. It seemed he only had to move a hair’s breadth, in any direction, to touch him again. I think he saw my face, too.

Talking to a voice in his head no longer seemed peculiar. In truth, it had not for quite a long time. And now… ? Now, he could see Mat and Perrin by thinking of them or hearing their names, and he had this other face coming to him unbidden. More than a face, apparently. What was holding conversations inside his own skull alongside that? But the man had been aware, and Rand of him.

When our streams of balefire touched in Shadar Logoth, it must have created some sort of link between us. I can’t think of any other explanation. That was the only time we ever met. He was using their so-called True Power. It had to be that. I felt nothing, saw nothing except his stream of balefire. Having bits of knowledge seem his when he knew they came from Lews Therin no longer seemed odd, either. He could remember the Ansaline Gardens, destroyed in the War of the Shadow, as well as he did his father’s farm. Knowledge drifted the other way, too. Lews Therin sometimes spoke of Emond’s Field as if he had grown up there. Does that make any sense to you?

Oh, Light, why do I have this voice in my head? Lews Therin moaned. Why can I not die? Oh, Ilyena, my precious Ilyena, I want to join you. He trailed off into weeping. He often did when he spoke of the wife he had murdered in his madness.

It did not matter. Rand suppressed the sound of the man crying, pushed it down to a faint noise on the edge of hearing. He was certain that he was right. But who was the fellow? A Darkfriend, for sure, but not one of the Forsaken. Lews Therin knew their faces as well as he knew his own, and now Rand did, too. A sudden thought made him grimace. How aware of him was the other man? Ta’veren could be found by their effect on the Pattern, though only the Forsaken knew how. Lews Therin certainly had never mentioned knowing - their “conversations” were always brief, and the man seldom gave information willingly - and nothing had drifted across from him on the subject. At least, Lanfear and Ishamael had known how. but no one had found him that way since they had died. Could this link be used in the same fashion? They could all be in danger. More danger than usual, as if the usual were not enough. Interesting here how Rand's thoughts are completed by Lews Therin, and how he uses Lews Therin to reason out what happened. Also interesting is the "destroyers" comment from Winter's Heart - why would Lews Therin make that comment about Moridin? He doesn't recognize him, because he's transmigrated. The obvious knowledge that the man was using the True Power has been hanging around in the back of Rand's brain for a long time now, untouched because of the questions it raises that he has no time for. It will be interesting to see if Rand reasons anything else out before the end.

The most interesting part of all, though, is that the "other one" comment from Winter's Heart was accompanied by the comment, "at times, the voice sounded sanest when it was the most mad", and then in Knife of Dreams, where Lews Therin finishes Rand's thought, "he was aware of me", it's accompanied by "he sounded sane for a change".

[Spidy]

I remember once that Uno proposed a theory that it was the EYE itself that spoke to Rand, not the DO or the Creator.

[Terez]

That's a dumb theory. Where's Uno? I'll tell him so. :D

(actually I remember reading about that in the archives or chronicles somewhere but I'm too lazy to look it up and see if the arguments were at least halfway decent)