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View Full Version : TWOK-the game is afoot (major spoilers)


WinespringBrother
09-23-2010, 09:06 AM
Main reason to start this thread is to find out who has actually finished the book :)

So it seems there are 2 separate conspiracies going on:

1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come. I'm not sure how killing Dalinar is going to help though. Unless it's a lie to help justify Szeth's actions to himself, though I don't see the need for that.

2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?

Artur pendragon
09-23-2010, 12:47 PM
1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come. I'm not sure how killing Dalinar is going to help though. Unless it's a lie to help justify Szeth's actions to himself, though I don't see the need for that.



It is not only killing the leaders to prepare for the dark times. it is also that he wants chaos to sweep into the other nations around him, so he can play the white knight and take control for the good of all the nations.

As to killing Dalinar, He wants him killed because he is close to uniting the highprinces by taking control of the war camp.

FollowYourMuse
09-23-2010, 01:29 PM
1 Taravanghian's plot to kill leaders to prepare for the dark times to come.

This is really a difficult one to figure out at this point, Definately a Doing "bad for good reasons" plot but also is he really collecting the Death Prophisies for good? or to keep them from being heard anywhere else?
2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?


I think that if Jasnah were killed in that way, it would alert Dalinar, and it would create more questions on the true reasons or who was behind the killer of the king.

Brita
09-23-2010, 03:44 PM
I plan to pick up the book on my way home from work today. I should be able to contribute to the discussion within a few days. I am excited- a brand new BS novel, and then a brand new WoT novel. Woohoo!

Xelun
09-23-2010, 06:05 PM
2 The Ghostbloods and their attempt to kill Jasnah. Since she has been under Taravanghian's eye for a long time, why would he not just send Szeth after her if he was behind the attempt on her life? Why such a convoluted plot, using poison?

It seemed to me like Taravanghian is working independently of the Ghostbloods. The Ghostbloods might be run by Thaidakar:

"...why Thaidakar would risk this?" Amaran was saying, speaking in a soft voice. "But who else would it be? The Ghostbloods grow more bold. We'll need to find out who he was. Do we know anything about him?"

From when Amaran takes the Shardblade.

Gavilar first suspects Szeth of being sent by Thaidakar in the Prologue.

Don't have page numbers because I didn't want to bring the hardcover to school.

nameless
09-23-2010, 08:22 PM
Dalinar's in the way because he thinks "unite them" means unite the Alethi. Given their culture, a united Alethi nation would be a huge obstacle to worldwide unity, which is what's actually needed to survive the Desolation. Of course, at the rate he's going he'll realize sooner or later than Alethi lighteyes aren't really at the center of the universe after all, but there's no way Taravanghian could predict that based on the information he has.

I had some questions:
1) what kind of spren do people think empower the Soulcasters? I'd guess those things working with Shallan are Truthspren or something along those lines, but there are two kinds of Soulcasters. What kind is Jasnah?
2) What happened to the 9 Heralds who deserted? Are they still around? Is Wit one of them?
3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?

FollowYourMuse
09-23-2010, 09:08 PM
3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?

I think it was the shardplate that she did not like, not the shard blades?
My Mistake - it was the shardblade ..

See the Alethi Script crack info on Timewastersguide.com It reveals A lot! Major Spoilers!

WinespringBrother
09-23-2010, 11:41 PM
Dalinar's in the way because he thinks "unite them" means unite the Alethi. Given their culture, a united Alethi nation would be a huge obstacle to worldwide unity, which is what's actually needed to survive the Desolation. Of course, at the rate he's going he'll realize sooner or later than Alethi lighteyes aren't really at the center of the universe after all, but there's no way Taravanghian could predict that based on the information he has.

I had some questions:
1) what kind of spren do people think empower the Soulcasters? I'd guess those things working with Shallan are Truthspren or something along those lines, but there are two kinds of Soulcasters. What kind is Jasnah?
2) What happened to the 9 Heralds who deserted? Are they still around? Is Wit one of them?
3) What happened to corrupt the Shardblades? Windrunners used to use them all the time, but Syl says she doesn't like them. And if Plate interferes with Surgebinding, why didn't it do so when Radiants wore it?

1) Do you have a quote that states Jasnah is a different kind of soulcaster than Shallan?
2) Obviously, Tal is still around. Don't know about the other 8. Don't see any proof that Wit is one, however.
3) Just a guess, but I think surgebinding would drain the gemstones powering the Plate, making it a burden since it would be too heavy to move with uninfused gems.

Xelun
09-23-2010, 11:54 PM
1) Do you have a quote that states Jasnah is a different kind of soulcaster than Shallan?
2) Obviously, Tal is still around. Don't know about the other 8. Don't see any proof that Wit is one, however.
3) Just a guess, but I think surgebinding would drain the gemstones powering the Plate, making it a burden since it would be too heavy to move with uninfused gems.

1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.

2) Tal was the one who didn't desert. The 9 who did all seem to be missing.

nameless
09-24-2010, 12:46 AM
I didn't mean to imply Jasnah and Shallan definitely had different patron spren. There's a 50/50 chance they're the same, but we don't get a Jasnah POV so we don't know what her spren look like.

WinespringBrother
09-24-2010, 09:24 AM
1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.

2) Tal was the one who didn't desert. The 9 who did all seem to be missing.

I thought they all deserted except for the one that died. (Don't remember which one that was, and don't have the book available)

Cary Sedai
09-24-2010, 07:12 PM
I think Syl doesn't like the shardblades because she and the other spren like her were once trapped in them. During Dalinar's vision when the Radiants thrust thier blads into the ground, and then dropped thier armor and walked away, the light went out of them.

I think the light was Syl and other spren like her. Possibly they were used to empower the blades/armor, then when released forgot who/what they were and now that Syl is with Kaladin she's remembering more and more...

It's what I'm going with for now, anyway. :)

And is Elhokar also a soulcaster? He did mention the symbol heads. Seeing them in mirrors... Sounds like he doesn't know who/what they are.

Xelun
09-24-2010, 11:31 PM
I thought they all deserted except for the one that died. (Don't remember which one that was, and don't have the book available)

Talenel'Elin was the one who died in the Prelude battle and thus did not desert. The person who shows up at the end has the same name. We have no idea what happened to the 9 who deserted. Think we're on the same page.

Tamyrlin
09-30-2010, 11:49 AM
1) In Chapter 72 Jasnah seems to think that Shallan is the same kind of Soulcaster that she herself is.


I thought I read that there were two types that didn't require fabrials "Two orders of the Knights Radiant didn't require..." - which seems to be the Jes and Shash, the types we see Szeth/Kaladin and Shallan/Jasnah use.

WinespringBrother
09-30-2010, 12:07 PM
Talenel'Elin was the one who died in the Prelude battle and thus did not desert. The person who shows up at the end has the same name. We have no idea what happened to the 9 who deserted. Think we're on the same page.

My bad. So Tal died (thousands of years ago) and is back now, possibly due to their rebirth cycle. I guess he is the harbinger of a new desolation, then.

nameless
09-30-2010, 02:11 PM
I thought I read that there were two types that didn't require fabrials "Two orders of the Knights Radiant didn't require..." - which seems to be the Jes and Shash, the types we see Szeth/Kaladin and Shallan/Jasnah use.

Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.

Terez
09-30-2010, 03:12 PM
This is really a difficult one to figure out at this point, Definately a Doing "bad for good reasons" plot but also is he really collecting the Death Prophisies for good? or to keep them from being heard anywhere else?
I wonder if the death prophecies are similar to Voidbinding, or the same thing.

Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.
Only two orders of the Radiants were Soulcasters. It may be that only two orders had Surgebinders, but it seems that each order had two powers, not just one, judging from the Double Eye of the Almighty:

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i111/Terez27/image1.png

Whether the Radiants are represented by the large spheres or the small ones, each order is connected to two others, and also to two of the other type of symbol (those might represent the Heralds).

There were two orders who surrendered their Shards at Feverstone keep - the Stonewards (amber...presumably topaz), and the Windrunners (blue...presumably sapphire). Perhaps only these two orders were Shardbearers. The Stonewards are also healers (Soulcasters?), and the Windrunners are also Surgebinders?

In the other vision where Dalinar met Radiants, they were also blue and amber. Same two orders, presumably. I'm guessing there is another order of Surgebinders and another order of Soulcasters that did not carry Shards.

Tamyrlin
09-30-2010, 03:46 PM
Szeth and Kaladin aren't Soulcasters. Surgebinding is the catch-all term for all the Radiant talents. Soulcasting is the specific talent of using stormlight to transmute objects.

They can soulcast, but you are saying that they aren't soulcasters because soulcasting is a sub set of talents that Surgebinders have?

Terez
09-30-2010, 07:41 PM
They can't Soulcast, so far as we know. Soulcasting and Surgebinding both manipulate Stormlight, but in completely different ways.

Tamyrlin
09-30-2010, 08:05 PM
They can't Soulcast, so far as we know. Soulcasting and Surgebinding both manipulate Stormlight, but in completely different ways.

Hmm - ok, understanding a little bit more and read this on Wikipedia

The only two individuals in the book seen to use Surgebinding are Szeth-son-son-Vallano[6], Kaladin[9], and through the visions of Dalinar, members of the Knights Radiant.

So Knights Radiant can Surgebind. But then we have this from Jasnah:

"Two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability; it was based on their powers that the original fabrials were designed, I believe"

Jasnah tells us that two orders of the Knights Radiant possessed inherent Soulcasting ability. Then, Inhilation, it says in the Ars Arcanum, is associated with the first of ten essences, and is associated to the Sapphire Gemstone (Windrunners?) Also, we are told the Heralds and the Knights Radiant were classically associated with one number and one essence.

Anyway - if it's not spelled out in the books, I believe that Kaladin can learn to Soulcast.

Terez
09-30-2010, 08:06 PM
I am totally not following your logic here. Did you read my earlier post, with the image? But yes, you are probably right about the Windrunners and sapphire, but there was likely another order of Surgebinders.

Tamyrlin
09-30-2010, 08:52 PM
I am totally not following your logic here. Did you read my earlier post, with the image? But yes, you are probably right about the Windrunners and sapphire, but there was likely another order of Surgebinders.

In the Ars Arcanum we have the list of Ten Essences.

The first column is obviously a list of Heralds.
The second column is the gemstone which seems to be associated with the particular Order of Knights Radiant.

The first row first column has the notation 1. Jes - which I believe is Jezrien.
The first row second column is the gemstone Sapphire which you pointed out is likely to be the gemstone associated with the Order of Windrunners.
The first row fourth column (Body Focus) is Inhalation - which is the manner in which Kaladin pulls stormlight into himself.

We are told that the Windrunners are an Order of the Knights Radiant that made use of Surgebinding.

We are told by Jasnah that two Orders of the Knights Radiant possessed the inherent ability to Soulcast.

So, I'm suggesting that one of the two Orders of the Knights Radiant that inherently had the ability to soulcast is the Windrunners who are able to both Surgebind and Coulcast...at least that's the theory.

And I need to take a look at the image.

Terez
09-30-2010, 09:09 PM
We are told that the Windrunners are an Order of the Knights Radiant that made use of Surgebinding.

We are told by Jasnah that two Orders of the Knights Radiant possessed the inherent ability to Soulcast.

So, I'm suggesting that one of the two Orders of the Knights Radiant that inherently had the ability to soulcast is the Windrunners who are able to both Surgebind and Coulcast...at least that's the theory.
Based on what evidence? That's why I'm not following you - I don't understand what led you to believe the Windrunners could Soulcast.

Zanguini
10-15-2010, 01:18 PM
I am finally finished... I dont post very much to the formal boards but I will give it a shot here since the book is so fresh in my head.


Concerning Thiadakar
I am of the mind that he is indeed of the ghostbloods. I have two main reasons for this.
If he is indeed a Ghostblood then he would be the one responsible for bringing Shallan to Jasanah in order to get her soulcaster for himself. He is unaware that she actually doesnt need it.
Using Shallan as a catspaw to deflect attention from himself, we have seen he is not above killing people he is fond of just to deflect attention away from himself. In fact it would not surprise me that he trapped his own daughter in the conclave just to have an opportunity to see Jasanahs soulcaster in action.
To whether or not he is good or evil I am unsure he could be working towards the heralds end knowing that he is on his way and leaving a shattered people easier for the herald to conquer or take over... or he is working for Odium to insure that the Herald fails... Right now to me either option seems as likely as the other

To the Soulcaster and Surgebinding
I believe that no one cannot have talents in two.
Szeth who we see most often using surgebinding uses no other power.
Jasanah says that there were two Orders of Radiants that could Soulcast. The two different soulcastings she mentions later are the difference between hers and Shallans power (ancient possibly hereditary) and the type employed in the warcamps (modern by use of fabrial only)


Please keep in mind i have not read the appendum at the end.



2 will be by later to tell me how wrong I am

Sarevok
12-08-2010, 04:57 AM
Just finished the books, and reading this thread, I noticed the following:
I thought I read that there were two types that didn't require fabrials "Two orders of the Knights Radiant didn't require..." - which seems to be the Jes and Shash, the types we see Szeth/Kaladin and Shallan/Jasnah use.
Tam made a good case for Jes being the thing Kaladin and Szeth use, but I just realized the "Shash" is the slave brand Kaladin got or being considered dangerous.