Wards

[The Seeker]

How come some wards can be undone or cut while some can't. The one im speaking of is the one that Messana cant get past int the white tower where all the angreal and sa'angreal are. I myself am assuming that its like the wards on Callandor so Mesanna doesnt want to mess with it and the way to get past it is probably only known by the Amyrlin and past down from one to the other either verbally or kept in the 13th depository.

[Terez]

I'm not sure what you're talking about with wards that can be undone. I can't think of any off the top of my head that can be undone, but I just woke up so that could be the problem. The wards in the Tower are likely like the one that Fain encountered - that one had an alarm attached to it. Callandor's wards had nasty surprises attached, as did the one on the gateway in Shadar Logoth. Cutting the weave of the ward would cause the ward to be triggered, apparently.

[GonzoTheGreat]

As an example of wards that can be undone, I think we can take the ones around Rhuidean. But they could only be undone after Asmodean had gotten an inside description of them from Mat.

[Terez]

I thought about the Rhuidean one, but I'm thinking that one was set to be undone by prophesied events.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Then how about the wards around Callandor?
Not the ones that Rand removed, but the ones that he later put in place and which were undone by Narishma. We know that Rand had deliberately put some very nasty surprises in there, presumably to discourage Forsaken who might want to take the sa'angreal with them. We also know that both he and Moiraine seemed to consider such a precaution sensible, apparently because they thought that simpler wards could have been undone by passing Forsaken.
I also suspect that such a passing Forsaken had added a couple of extra wards, purely to protect Callandor even better, of course.

Then there are the wards around the collection in Tear, also put in place by Rand. One of the Forsaken remarks that there are some nasty tricks in there, apparently having discovered this during a failed attempt to undo the wards.

And there is the ward that Moghedien laid around the Seal in Tanchico, to hide it from everyone. That ward was undone by Nynaeve, who then took the Seal and chatted with Moghedien.

All in all: yes, wards can be undone, though some are easier to undo than others.

[Terez]

Rand wove his own wards with the prophecy in mind - he knew that someone else would need to draw it out. Moghedien had Illusion on the seal, not a ward. As for the Tear holding, is this what you're thinking of?

TITLE: Lord of Chaos
CHAPTER: Prologue - The First Message

Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I don't think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel."
That was set by Moiraine apparently. Mesaana speaks as if it is uncommon to place wards that can only be untied by the person who wove them, but I can't think of any wards that aren't like that - they're either attuned to the person that wove them, or inverted so that no one can see them, if not both, or woven with a complexity that only the weaver would be able to unravel (or someone that the weaver gave instructions to). It's all a matter of what conditions the weaver puts on the ward. A shield can usually be simply cut with flows of the Power if no one's holding it (or is the person/circle holding it can be overcome) but we have examples of complex Power shields from Moghedien-Liandrin and Lanfear-Asmodean.

Back to the Rhuidean ward, it is logical to assume that the wards on Rhuidean were actually wards on the access keys to the Choedan Kal that would have been set by the Aes Sedai who were at Rhuidean. The only reason Asmodean was not burned to a cinder when he touched the access key was that Rand touched it "a heartbeat later". The name of that chapter is The Traps of Rhuidean, and Lanfear might not have known what exactly the shield was, but the context of her wondering does give a clue:
TITLE - The Shadow Rising
CHAPTER: 58 - The Traps of Rhuidean

"I do like to see men fight, but you two cannot even stand." Lanfear moved into Rand's view, surveying the devastation. "You have made a thorough job of it. Can you feel the traces? This place was shielded in some way. You did not leave enough for me to say how." Dark eyes suddenly bright, she knelt in front of Rand, peering at what he held. "So that is what he was after. I thought they were all destroyed. Only half remains of the single one I have seen; a fine trap for some unwary Aes Sedai." She put out a hand, and he clutched the ter'angreal tighter. Her smile did not touch her eyes. "Keep it, certainly. To me it is no more than a figurine." Rising, she dusted her white skirts though they did not need it. When she realized he was watching her, she stopped searching the rubble-strewn plaza with her eyes, made her smile brighter. "What you used was one of the two sa'angreal I told you of. Did you feel the immensity of it? I have wondered what it must be like." She seemed unaware of the hunger in her voice. "With those, together, we can displace the Great Lord of the Dark himself. We can, Lews Therin! Together."

"Help me!" Asmodean crawled toward her unsteadily, his upraised face painted in dread. "You don't know what he has done. You must help me. I would not have come here if not for you."

"What has he done?" she sniffed. "Beaten you like a dog, and not half so well as you deserve. You were never meant for greatness, Asmodean, only to follow those who are great." Before then, Rhuidean was shielded in Tel'aran'rhiod, and the access keys shielded to Rand's touch. The fog of Rhuidean that accompanied the shield didn't physically keep people out in the real world, but the Aiel did, and no Aiel went to Rhuidean for any other purpose than the rings or the columns. They protected it with their honor because it contained their history, and for the women, their future also. When the ward went, the fog went with it - it dissipated like a natural fog, but very quickly, because it was "almost gone" by the time Rand and Asmodean left the city.

[Yuri33]

Back to the Rhuidean ward, it is logical to assume that the wards on Rhuidean were actually wards on the access keys to the Choedan Kal that would have been set by the Aes Sedai who were at Rhuidean.

It would be strange to put such awesome wards on the access keys and then let them just lie around with the rest of the stuff in the plaza.

[Marie Curie 7]

That was set by Moiraine apparently. Mesaana speaks as if it is uncommon to place wards that can only be untied by the person who wove them, but I can't think of any wards that aren't like that - they're either attuned to the person that wove them, or inverted so that no one can see them, if not both, or woven with a complexity that only the weaver would be able to unravel (or someone that the weaver gave instructions to). It's all a matter of what conditions the weaver puts on the ward. A shield can usually be simply cut with flows of the Power if no one's holding it (or is the person/circle holding it can be overcome) but we have examples of complex Power shields from Moghedien-Liandrin and Lanfear-Asmodean.

Well...there are also the wards in Tar Valon that keep out rats and the like. Those were definitely not set to be untied only by the person who wove them, since they've existed for about three thousand years. And there are also the ones that strengthen the city walls and harbor towers in Tar Valon.

[Terez]

It would be strange to put such awesome wards on the access keys and then let them just lie around with the rest of the stuff in the plaza.
Not really, seeing as how the Aiel knew not to touch anything, and they kept anyone else from going to the city.

[GonzoTheGreat]

Before then, Rhuidean was shielded in Tel'aran'rhiod, and the access keys shielded to Rand's touch. The fog of Rhuidean that accompanied the shield didn't physically keep people out in the real world, but the Aiel did, and no Aiel went to Rhuidean for any other purpose than the rings or the columns.
Do you have evidence for any of this?
Specifically:
-You seem to imply that the shield on Rhuidean only existed in TAR, instead of being primarily a real world thing with a counterpart in the world of dreams, as I think.
-You seem to think that the fog only makes it impossible to see most of Rhuidean from outside. I think that it was a defense mechanism, which would disorientate the wrong people so that they could never get out again. And it also prevented people from Travelling into Rhuidean, thus making it impossible to get around with the OP.
-You seem to think that the access keys were somehow tuned to Rand, while I can't think of any evidence for that idea at all. Rand didn't seem to think so, Asmodean didn't seem to think so, Lanfear didn't seem to think so, and no one else that I can think of has expressed an opinion on the subject. The only other example of an access key that we found definitely was not tuned to Rand, though with it being broken it is not conclusive evidence I admit.
-I am not sure that the Aiel surveillance was 100% effective all the time. If it was, then I think that some border patrols in the real world might want to get some tips on how to do that. And I don't think that no Aiel at all ever tried to sneak in, either.
Not really, seeing as how the Aiel knew not to touch anything, and they kept anyone else from going to the city.
And for all the time that Aiel went there, they all behaved sensibly and obediently?
Somehow that seems to suggest that Aiel aren't human.

As for evidence of the possibility of breaking wards, there is the (somewhat suspect) statement by Lanfear, followed by fairly good evidence:
FoH, Chapter 6, Gateways

"You ward your dreams against me."
"Against everyone." That was simple truth, though she was at least as prominent in the list as the Wise Ones.
"Dreams are mine. You and your dreams are mine especially." Her face remained smooth, but her voice hardened. "I can break through your warding. You would not like it."
To show his unconcern, he sat down on the foot of his pallet, legs folded and hands on his knees. He thought his face was as calm as hers. Inside him, the Power swelled. He had flows of Air ready to bind her, and flows of Spirit. That was what wove a shield against the True Source. The racking of his brain for the how of it seemed far off, but he could not remember anyway. Without that, the other was useless. She could pick apart or slice through anything he wove, even if she could not see it. Asmodean was trying to teach him that trick, but it was hard going without a woman's weaving to practice on.
Lanfear eyed him in a disconcerted fashion, a slight frown marring her beauty. "I have examined the Aiel women's dreams. These so-called Wise Ones. They do not know how to shield themselves very well. I could frighten them till they never dream again, never even think of invading yours surely."
"I thought you would not help me openly." He did not dare tell her to leave the Wise Ones alone; she might well do something to spite him. She had made it plain from the start, if not in words, that she meant to have the upper hand between them. "Wouldn't that risk another of the Forsaken finding out? You aren't the only one who knows how to enter people's dreams."
"The Chosen," she said absently. For a moment she chewed a full underlip. "I have watched the girl's dreams, too. Egwene. Once I thought you had feelings for her. Do you know who she dreams of? Morgase's son and stepson. The son, Gawyn, most often." Smiling, she put on a tone of mock shock. "You would not believe a simple country girl could have such dreams."
As far as we know, Egwene and the WOs ward their dreams too. Yet here we do get evidence that Lanfear is capable of getting through those wards, apparently undetected, and spying on Egwene's dreams.

Then there's this:
CoT, Chapter 14, What Wise Ones Know

Elayne shook her head. There was no way to tell who – a Black sister? A curious Kinswoman? – but at least the eavesdrop had failed. Not that there was much chance of anyone getting past one of Aviendha’s wards, maybe not even the Forsaken, but she would have spoken up right away if someone had.
This says quite clearly that Elayne is convinced that wards can be broken, even if she thinks it is unlikely with this particular type if woven by a person as good at it as Aviendha is. But the clear implication is that if someone is less good at it, then breaking becomes easier.

[Terez]

Do you have evidence for any of this?
Only the fact that the ward disappeared when the male Choedan Kal was retrieved by Rand.

You seem to imply that the shield on Rhuidean only existed in TAR, instead of being primarily a real world thing with a counterpart in the world of dreams, as I think.
Nope, just that only the Tel'aran'rhiod shield actually prevented entry.

You seem to think that the fog only makes it impossible to see most of Rhuidean from outside. I think that it was a defense mechanism, which would disorientate the wrong people so that they could never get out again. And it also prevented people from Travelling into Rhuidean, thus making it impossible to get around with the OP.
Do you have any evidence for this?

You seem to think that the access keys were somehow tuned to Rand, while I can't think of any evidence for that idea at all. Rand didn't seem to think so, Asmodean didn't seem to think so, Lanfear didn't seem to think so, and no one else that I can think of has expressed an opinion on the subject. The only other example of an access key that we found definitely was not tuned to Rand, though with it being broken it is not conclusive evidence I admit.
That they are tuned so that no one else can use them? No - rather that the shield of Rhuidean was attuned to Rand retrieving the Choedan Kal.

I am not sure that the Aiel surveillance was 100% effective all the time. If it was, then I think that some border patrols in the real world might want to get some tips on how to do that. And I don't think that no Aiel at all ever tried to sneak in, either.
We don't have any evidence of anyone sneaking in, and from Rhuarc's comments to Lanfear and Co. when they showed up in the Waste, it seems that it was well known to peddlers etc. that Rhuidean was off limits.

And for all the time that Aiel went there, they all behaved sensibly and obediently?
Somehow that seems to suggest that Aiel aren't human.
No, not really - just that the Aiel way of life is ji'e'toh, and there are some things that you just don't do. Going to Rhuidean without permission of the Wise Ones is one of those things (hence why everyone was shocked that Couladin would do such a thing, even though he didn't, actually).

[Ozymandias]

I'm not sure any wards are meant to be untied. When you think about it, a stranger should not be able to untie anything. Some wards have the aforementioned "nasty surprises" which are like teeth on the trap, while some have alarms, and some are keyed for an individual. Its just different bells and whistles... I don't think we have any evidence of anyone making it through a ward they shouldn't be able to.

[Terez]

Yeah, that was essentially my point in the beginning. It may be that the wards on the Tower and such are tweakable by anyone, or the wards that Moiraine used to deter Shadowspawn or Mashadar (though you would think not on those).

[Sarevok]

I think that last bit has to do with the recently re-discovered inverting of the weaves, wich makes them invisible to anyone but the one who set them. And before that time, the main characters of the story weren't really anywhere where there might have been wards placed.

[Yuri33]

Only the fact that the ward disappeared when the male Choedan Kal was retrieved by Rand.

And also after a massive OP battle that leveled a significant portion of the city. I would think this would be more pertinent to the destruction of a ward that protected the city itself.

No, not really - just that the Aiel way of life is ji'e'toh, and there are some things that you just don't do. Going to Rhuidean without permission of the Wise Ones is one of those things (hence why everyone was shocked that Couladin would do such a thing, even though he didn't, actually).

The Aiel are a honorable people, but they don't always measure up as well. They have human failings--after all, only 1 in 3 candidates for clan chief come back. I'm not saying that they weren't all killed by the columns ter'angreal, but in the thousands of years of going to Rhuidean, I would think that some of the less honorable candidates might be tempted to stray the path. Leaving such powerful and dangerous objects out in the open is one thing, tying the protection of Rhuidean to one of those "random" objects is another.

No - rather that the shield of Rhuidean was attuned to Rand retrieving the Choedan Kal.

We know about Callandor, but claiming a similar mechanism is tied specifically to the male CK access key is speculation without evidence.

Its just different bells and whistles...

I think the whole Ward system is inconsistent because RJ needed a plot device in specific instances. It's hard to explain in a consistent manner why certain protections work and other don't, why certain protections can be undone, and others can't. RJ needed the status quo in certain places, and Wards were his means of doing that.

[Terez]

The ward placed on Callandor originally weren't inverted, and neither were Rand's until Asmodean taught him how to invert weaves (and he went there in Tel'aran'rhiod to invert them). The ward Moiraine placed on the Holding in the Stone weren't inverted.

[Terez]

And also after a massive OP battle that leveled a significant portion of the city. I would think this would be more pertinent to the destruction of a ward that protected the city itself.
Do you think that the Aes Sedai who placed the shield intended for it to last forever? They had to have some sort of trigger in place.

The Aiel are a honorable people, but they don't always measure up as well. They have human failings--after all, only 1 in 3 candidates for clan chief come back. I'm not saying that they weren't all killed by the columns ter'angreal, but in the thousands of years of going to Rhuidean, I would think that some of the less honorable candidates might be tempted to stray the path. Leaving such powerful and dangerous objects out in the open is one thing, tying the protection of Rhuidean to one of those "random" objects is another.
Speculation aside, all the evidence points to Rhuidean being a holy place for all Aiel. The point remains that the Aes Sedai who placed the shield logically would have also placed some trigger in it so that it wouldn't last forever.

[Spidy]

Speculation aside, all the evidence points to Rhuidean being a holy place for all Aiel.

Its aplace Aiel don't go because the Jenn lived there, cept for potential Wo's and Chiefs. That in itself stops all and sundry.

Ribbons were cut by Ran with OP but no reference to cutting wards. Twice marked could be the key.

[Terez]

Twice marked wasn't the key because that happened earlier in the book, and the shield stayed. The ribbons Rand cut were razor-sharp traps laid by Sammael.

[Spidy]

Catchatori says:
Rand didn't go back to Rhuidean until this time except in dreams.

Terez says:
I don't think there was anything to keep mat from getting out

Catchatori says:
cos all Aiel men are told to go into the columns, Mat wasn't told that

Terez says:
right

Terez says:
usually, you go, and you either die or come out chief

Terez says:
but that's because all men go to the columns...there's no other reason for them to go than to get that dragon

Terez says:
and no one's ever come back without one

Catchatori says:
but now someone with double the dragon went back in, and wards Kaput

I am aa genius

[Yuri33]

Do you think that the Aes Sedai who placed the shield intended for it to last forever? They had to have some sort of trigger in place.

Or, you know, they could just trust Rand to find some way. It was prophesied, after all. Can't hand him everything on a platter.

[GonzoTheGreat]

LOC, Prologue, The First Message

Automatically Mesaana dropped into a lecturing tone. "The White Tower now has guards and wards on their strongrooms, inside and out, plus they count everything four times each day. The Great Hold in the Stone of Tear is also warded, with a nasty thing that would have held me fast had I tried to pass through or untie it. I don’t think it can be untied except by whoever wove it, and until then it is a trap for any other woman who can channel."
Now, I have a question for you, Terez:
If it is impossible to untie someone else's wards, then why did all the Forsaken pretend to take Mesaana at her word that she would have managed this if it hadn't been for the booby trap?

Then there is the fact that we know that Rand untied a knotted shield, and then broke through the parts that were still held by AS when he escaped at Dumai's Wells. Combine that with this:
CoT, Chapter 24, A Strengthening Storm

“You can speak freely,” Rand told him. “We’re safe behind a… a ward.” He had almost said behind a shield, which was not the same thing. Except that he knew it was.
So, if a shield can be undone, then so can a ward, because they are the same thing. And since we know that shields can be undone, it follows that wards can also be undone.

[Terez]

Gonzo, I've never argued that it's impossible to undo wards. :p

[GonzoTheGreat]

I'm not sure what you're talking about with wards that can be undone. I can't think of any off the top of my head that can be undone, but I just woke up so that could be the problem.
You haven't?
Then what did you mean by what you wrote in your first post in this thread:
I'm not sure what you're talking about with wards that can be undone. I can't think of any off the top of my head that can be undone, but I just woke up so that could be the problem.
It seems to me that here you were explicitly arguing the impossibility of undoing wards, though with the caveat that you hadn't thought it through very well, yet. Since you did not say in any of your following posts that you thought wards could be undone after all, I had the impression that you had stayed with your initial opinion.

[Terez]

Bad impression then. ;)