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View Full Version : Ok, so about Tuon's plans


YouForgotPoland
11-10-2010, 01:44 AM
We know from Pevara's POVs in earlier books that if someone is sworn to tell the truth and sworn to obey someone who commands them to lie, it results in probably their mind breaking or death.

Now I don't know if we've seen any Aes Sedai damane >in action< killing people with the One Power, but I'd assume that all of the Aes Sedai that were collared in the battle in TGS will not be able to fight for the Seanchan?

Is this a discussion that's already taken place? At least one Aes Sedai damane will be taken to the WT for travelling, and I can't see the seanchan turning down any advantage by bringing all of them, these women are all already trained in the power, unlike the random girls that they test in the lands that they conquer.

Dewairah
11-10-2010, 01:49 AM
perceptive but i dont think it'll matter too much in the end.

the seanchan have plenty of damane which they can use.

How many aes sedai were taken in the seanchan raid anyway?

jana
11-10-2010, 01:50 AM
Is that all you're asking? Whether they'd be able to fight?

No, they can't use the power as a weapon. But they can open gateways, shield people, and bind them with air. And the Seanchan mostly want to capture marath'damane this time, not kill them.

jana
11-10-2010, 01:51 AM
How many aes sedai were taken in the seanchan raid anyway?

Not many. Less than 20, iirc.

I'm of the firm opinion nothing will come of this. Mat's not going to use collared Aes Sedai to conquer Seanchan. The idea is laughable.

Cortar
11-10-2010, 03:25 AM
We know from Pevara's POVs in earlier books that if someone is sworn to tell the truth and sworn to obey someone who commands them to lie, it results in probably

Now I don't know if we've seen any Aes Sedai damane >in action< killing people with the One Power, but I'd assume that all of the Aes Sedai that were collared in the battle in TGS will not be able to fight for the Seanchan?

Is this a discussion that's already taken place? At least one Aes Sedai damane will be taken to the WT for travelling, and I can't see the seanchan turning down any advantage by bringing all of them, these women are all already trained in the power, unlike the random girls that they test in the lands that they conquer.

This was already addressed in the earlier books. It showed some Seanchan talking about how it was amusing that the former Aes Sedai couldn't be used as weapons. In one scene it even shows one damane Aes Seadi crying because she couldn't be that useful and her controller comforted her saying that she could do other things and make good fireworks

Landro
11-10-2010, 03:28 AM
We know from Pevara's POVs in earlier books that if someone is sworn to tell the truth and sworn to obey someone who commands them to lie, it results in probably their mind breaking or death.

Now I don't know if we've seen any Aes Sedai damane >in action< killing people with the One Power, but I'd assume that all of the Aes Sedai that were collared in the battle in TGS will not be able to fight for the Seanchan?

Is this a discussion that's already taken place? At least one Aes Sedai damane will be taken to the WT for travelling, and I can't see the seanchan turning down any advantage by bringing all of them, these women are all already trained in the power, unlike the random girls that they test in the lands that they conquer.

AS can use the power to kill when they are in danger. A Sul'dam could threaten to kill the AS Damane to meet this requirement. Then the AS Damane can be used as a weapon against the WT.

Cortar
11-10-2010, 03:34 AM
AS can use the power to kill when they are in danger. A Sul'dam could threaten to kill the AS Damane to meet this requirement. Then the AS Damane can be used as a weapon against the WT.

I thought they could only use the Power as a weapon against the threat?

jana
11-10-2010, 03:51 AM
I thought they could only use the Power as a weapon against the threat?

Yes

Landro
11-10-2010, 04:32 AM
The 3rd Oath as spoke by Egwene in tGS:
"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

Knowing how good AS are at skirting the Oaths, this leaves more than enough room for Sul'dam to threaten AS so they can be used as weapons.

Telling an AS Damane "I will kill you (or another AS Damane) if you don't kill with the OP" gives them a way out of the 3rd oath. Even threatening to kill their Warder if he survived would do the trick.

jana
11-10-2010, 04:52 AM
The 3rd Oath as spoke by Egwene in tGS:


Knowing how good AS are at skirting the Oaths, this leaves more than enough room for Sul'dam to threaten AS so they can be used as weapons.

Telling an AS Damane "I will kill you (or another AS Damane) if you don't kill with the OP" gives them a way out of the 3rd oath. Even threatening to kill their Warder if he survived would do the trick.

Nah, not buying it. They aren't using the One Power to defend their life if the enemy is 2 feet from them and they're flinging fireballs 100 yards away. Doesn't work. It has to be used in defense. That isn't defense against the threat.

Mik
11-10-2010, 05:35 AM
Nah, not buying it. They aren't using the One Power to defend their life if the enemy is 2 feet from them and they're flinging fireballs 100 yards away. Doesn't work. It has to be used in defense. That isn't defense against the threat.Sorry Deads, but say I were to hold a knife to your throat. And that I'm telling you I'll slice your throat unless you shoot mr. random Joe at 100 feet with that gun you're holding that you're only allowed to use in defense of your life.
If you shoot mr. random Joe, wouldn't you agree you saved your life? You defended your life by used the gun (OP) as a direct result of you percieving your life is in grave danger. The target of the gun (OP) isn't defined -at all- in the Oath. You yourself added the restiction that the OP needs to be targeted at the one threatening you.

Nowhere does that Oath state you can only use the One Power on the one directly threatening you. It states you can use the One Power as a weapon when you're using it to defend a Sisters, your Warders or your own life. There is no restriction on the target of the OP, only on the targets of the life-threatening situation (= other Sisters/ your Warders/ own life).

Following your line of thought, no Aes Sedai could ever use weaves like a Fireball in a melee. She can't be sure it will only hit targets that directly threaten her life, so she can't use it? Ofcourse she can, because it doesn't matter who is killed by the Fireball; the Aes Sedai feels her life is threatened and can fire away!

Only your own perception makes you think it has to be aimed at the threat to your life. I agree there could be Aes Sedai who falsely percieve this the same way that you do. Those Aes Sedai could only use the OP on the direct threat then, but it's based on flawed logic and not on the Oath itself.

David Selig
11-10-2010, 05:43 AM
If it was that simple, the sul'dam would've figured it out already, they've had Aes Sedai damane for a long time but have yet to be able to overcome the Third Oath.

Mik
11-10-2010, 06:56 AM
If it was that simple, the sul'dam would've figured it out already, they've had Aes Sedai damane for a long time but have yet to be able to overcome the Third Oath.What kind of reasoning is that?

Your reason for refuting my simple and clear explanation is that fictional characters in a book apparently can't, ergo; logic goes out the window?
A Strawman if I ever saw one.

Just stick to the Oath itself please. We've got it black-on-white.
"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

Nowhere does it state the One Power weapon has to be used against the direct threat. That it's common sense to do so does not make it part of the Oath.

Belazamon
11-10-2010, 02:25 PM
You'd make a good Aes Sedai, Mik.

Of course, you'd also make a good sul'dam.

Mik
11-11-2010, 04:39 PM
You'd make a good Aes Sedai, Mik.I hope you're referring to the the "Jenn Aes Sedai". I am but a Servant of All.
Personally, I detest the Oaths and I despise how hollow their meaning actually is.



Of course, you'd also make a good sul'dam.I'd have my new, fresh Aes Sedai Damane turned into One Power Weapons before Taim can spell "Asha'm'hael" (hint hint)

ScoundrelTheToy
11-11-2010, 07:38 PM
I don't really care to see Aes Sedai be slaughtered but I do hope Tuon's plan succeeds and she levels the White Tower to dust while they're all on the FOM.

Barring that, she could simply just take control of the White Tower and keep it intanct and fortify it against Aes Sedai being able to re-enter their tower. Now that would be sweet too :). She did tell Mat afterall that she was considering making Tar Valon her capital city so I'm not sure she would level the place, but we shall see how it plays out. The Seanchan are not going to bend knee without some form of miracle occuring I'm afraid.

The Seanchan aren't in the right with damane and slaves of course, but they (Tuon) are RIGHT that they shouldn't and will NEVER bend knee to Aes Sedai.

And before someone tells me Tuon made Ebou Dar her capital city, yes I'm aware of this.

jana
11-11-2010, 10:12 PM
I don't really care to see Aes Sedai be slaughtered but I do hope Tuon's plan succeeds and she levels the White Tower to dust while they're all on the FOM.

It's odd. After reading her PoV once I had the impression they wanted to destroy it. But then I re-read it, and they don't. It's just that ending sentence "The White Tower was doomed" that left that impression.

What she actually thinks/says before that (not exact quotes) is "capture the White Tower" and "capture the marath'damane so we can use them to take back the Seanchan homeland"

shadar
11-12-2010, 02:16 AM
Hasn't the using the AS as damane been addressed in KOD/TGS?
In KOD Tuon realised something about what Joline/Teslyn said about being in danger.
And in TGS she was trying to remember exactly what it was they said..

I thought it was pretty indicative that the knife to the throat approach should work fine.

jana
11-12-2010, 02:18 AM
Hasn't the using the AS as damane been addressed in KOD/TGS?
In KOD Tuon realised something about what Joline/Teslyn said about being in danger.
And in TGS she was trying to remember exactly what it was they said.

I don't recall this, or that there was any indication they could be used.


Honestly, the whole thing is irrelevant. They can use the Aes Sedai for gateways.

Green Man 22
11-12-2010, 04:51 AM
I don't have my books with me right now, but I think I remember a sul'dam POV where she was expressing frustration over not being able to use a former AS damane for offensive attacks.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:54 AM
I don't have my books with me right now, but I think I remember a sul'dam POV where she was expressing frustration over not being able to use a former AS damane for offensive attacks.Easy to solve: blindfold the damane, then punish her until she learns how to channel blind.

Then you can simply give her orders like "big ball of fire, 87 foot distance, 12.3 degrees to the left", without telling her whether it is just a training exercise or blowing up her own Warder.
May be a bit slower than the standard way, but in a battle quantity can often make up for quality. And all those Novices and Accepted can provide the quality, of course, after they've been trained in proper behaviour for a while.

David Selig
11-14-2010, 09:10 AM
What kind of reasoning is that?

Your reason for refuting my simple and clear explanation is that fictional characters in a book apparently can't, ergo; logic goes out the window?
A Strawman if I ever saw one.

Just stick to the Oath itself please. We've got it black-on-white.
"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

Nowhere does it state the One Power weapon has to be used against the direct threat. That it's common sense to do so does not make it part of the Oath.

Your explanation makes sense and I'd have agreed with it if there wasn't evidence from the books that the Seanchans had tried really hard to make the Aes Sedai useful as weapons, yet had been unable to. Jordan confirms it in his interviews:

Week 21 Question: Just how can an Aes Sedai be a damane? Aren't they bound by the Third Oath: to not use the One Power as a weapon except to defend their lives, their Warder's life, or another sister's life? Wouldn't they be useless as damane to the Seanchan?

Robert Jordan Answers: The Aes Sedai captured by the Seanchan are indeed useless as weapons, except against Shadowspawn or Darkfriends, because they are bound by the Three Oaths, and that limits their value considerably since being weapons is a major use for damane. Damane are used for other tasks, however, including finding ores for mining (Egwene was tested for this, remember; it's a very valuable, and fairly rare, ability), for some mining operations where it would be too dangerous or uneconomical to use human miners (bringing ores out of the ground and refining them using the Power), and in some construction projects, especially where something very large or with a need for added strength is envisioned. The first two both require a high ability in Earth, which has faded considerably on "this" side of the Aryth Ocean and to a smaller degree on the other side, but construction projects and others things, such as producing Sky Lights, are well within the abilities of collared Aes Sedai. The Three Oaths don't inhibit them there at all.

Daemin
11-14-2010, 01:11 PM
Originally Posted by Mik View Post
What kind of reasoning is that?

Your reason for refuting my simple and clear explanation is that fictional characters in a book apparently can't, ergo; logic goes out the window?
A Strawman if I ever saw one.

Just stick to the Oath itself please. We've got it black-on-white.
"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

Nowhere does it state the One Power weapon has to be used against the direct threat. That it's common sense to do so does not make it part of the Oath.

It doesn't say it explicitly, because it doesn't need to. Defending their lives means using it as a weapon against the person attacking them.

You're trying to twist the meaning of "defense" beyond the common language usage of the term. In the situation you describe, I'm willing to bet 99.9% of people would say "I was forced to attack that person under threat of harm", not "I was forced to defend myself against that person under threat of harm."

Its not defense if the person you're using it as a weapon against isn't the one attacking you.

Zephirum
11-15-2010, 04:56 AM
... well the way the oaths work seems to have more to do with how the person who swore them interprets them then the intent or the wording.... if I believe that lightning balling a field of soldiers to stop a sul'dam from killing me is in defense of my life, then it is. If I don't think its good enough well then it won't work. It would work or not work on an individual basis based on individual beliefs.

Much like being able to spread information that is untrue if if the speaker thinks that it is true.

kikokix
11-15-2010, 02:16 PM
Since the damane can't link because of the a'dam, would Travelling to Tar Valon be a little bit challenging for the Seanchan if they couldn't field the EVA across a wide area right away? Sneaking in through a Tower basement seems a problem as well, since unless the damane is a very strong one who could create a gateway that allows at least 5 soldiers to go through, they'd still seem to be bottled up.

jana
11-15-2010, 04:57 PM
Since the damane can't link because of the a'dam, would Travelling to Tar Valon be a little bit challenging for the Seanchan if they couldn't field the EVA across a wide area right away? Sneaking in through a Tower basement seems a problem as well, since unless the damane is a very strong one who could create a gateway that allows at least 5 soldiers to go through, they'd still seem to be bottled up.

They'll probably find a damane with a Talent for it

Cortar
11-17-2010, 04:13 AM
Easy to solve: blindfold the damane, then punish her until she learns how to channel blind.

Then you can simply give her orders like "big ball of fire, 87 foot distance, 12.3 degrees to the left", without telling her whether it is just a training exercise or blowing up her own Warder.
May be a bit slower than the standard way, but in a battle quantity can often make up for quality. And all those Novices and Accepted can provide the quality, of course, after they've been trained in proper behaviour for a while.

You can't channel while blind though, can you? For some reason I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't weave without seeing it...

morat'corlm
11-17-2010, 04:30 AM
You can't channel while blind though, can you? For some reason I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't weave without seeing it...Well, that's what Tarna Feir (RIP) claims:
Galina Casban beat my block out of me herself. [...] The hours I spent howling and weeping before I could find saidar without my eyes shut tight; you cannot weave if you cannot see the flows.
But we all know Aes Sedai are not omniscient. I could swear there's a contradictory statement somewhere, maybe by Tuon or one of the Ebou Dari sul'dam? It seems kind of an arbitrary restriction, like Rand thinking he can't weave without moving his fingers. Why wouldn't you be able to see weaves with your eyelids lowered? Do flows of the frickin' One Power reflect light?

jana
11-17-2010, 04:37 AM
Well, that's what Tarna Feir (RIP) claims:

But we all know Aes Sedai are not omniscient. I could swear there's a contradictory statement somewhere, maybe by Tuon or one of the Ebou Dari sul'dam? It seems kind of an arbitrary restriction, like Rand thinking he can't weave without moving his fingers. Why wouldn't you be able to see weaves with your eyelids lowered? Do flows of the frickin' One Power reflect light?

That does seem kind of weird... and you can channel spirit while asleep.

The Immortal One
11-17-2010, 01:18 PM
... and you can channel spirit while asleep.

You can channel spirit while asleep, but you weave the flows before you go to sleep.

Just as you can shield somebody, then leave the room and still hold the shield even while not being able to see it.

Nafro
11-17-2010, 01:33 PM
Don't worry about Tuon. Once Mat gets a chance to give her some of that sexual healing, she will have a new outlook on life.

Landro
11-17-2010, 01:50 PM
You can't channel while blind though, can you? For some reason I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't weave without seeing it...

AS can't channel they're angry but Nynaeve did before she broke he block. What a channeler believes can be more limiting than the laws of magic/physics.

Neilbert
11-17-2010, 11:38 PM
You can't channel while blind though, can you? For some reason I remember reading somewhere that you couldn't weave without seeing it...

You can channel while bind. RJ answered a question about it. IIRC He said that the different threads have different "feels", so that while you could channel blind, the difficulties would be both in learning weaves, and knowing what exactly you were channeling at. But basically there is nothing inherent to blindness that stops channeling, any more than there is something inherent about blindness that stops someone from shooting a gun.

alleluia_cone
11-18-2010, 12:13 AM
Tarna Feir (RIP)

How dare you! There's still hope! Damn it all, if Nynaeve can cure madness, she can cure Tarna.

Monkey
11-18-2010, 04:13 AM
When Rand cap Tuon and the Seanchan the need for the collars will be obsolete. They will be all going to SG to fight Shadowspawn.

How Rand does that will be interesting.

Mik
01-06-2011, 11:21 AM
What kind of reasoning is that?

Your reason for refuting my simple and clear explanation is that fictional characters in a book apparently can't, ergo; logic goes out the window?
A Strawman if I ever saw one.

Just stick to the Oath itself please. We've got it black-on-white.
"I vow that I will never use the One Power as a weapon except against Darkfriends and Shadowspawn, or in the last extreme of defending my life or that of my Warder or of another sister."

Nowhere does it state the One Power weapon has to be used against the direct threat. That it's common sense to do so does not make it part of the Oath.
It doesn't say it explicitly, because it doesn't need to. Defending their lives means using it as a weapon against the person attacking them.

You're trying to twist the meaning of "defense" beyond the common language usage of the term. In the situation you describe, I'm willing to bet 99.9% of people would say "I was forced to attack that person under threat of harm", not "I was forced to defend myself against that person under threat of harm."

Its not defense if the person you're using it as a weapon against isn't the one attacking you.
I can prove you wrong fairly easy, like I explained to jana earlier in this Thread;
Following your line of thought, no Aes Sedai could ever use weaves like a Fireball and fire it into a melee. She can't be sure it will only hit the target(s) that directly threaten her own life (or her warders & Sisters), so she can't use it.
But from the books we see that ofcourse Aes Sedai can use weaves like Fireballs as weapons, because it doesn't actually matter who is killed by the Fireball; the Aes Sedai feels her life is threatened and can fire away!

It's not a case like you seem to suggest of singling out those attackers that actually -at that very moment- are a lethal threat to the Aes Sedai's and/ or the Warders lives. It's as simple as the Aes Sedai feeling her and/ or her Warders life is in mortal danger & the OP becomes a weapon they can use on who they like.

You might want to read the end of KoD (where three Aes Sedai hurl huge fireballs as fast as they can swing their arms)

Like I stated earlier; the target of the weapon (the OP) isn't defined at all, but just the target of the life-threatening situation (Aes Sedai own life, her own Warder and/ or other Sisters) is clearly defined.


Your explanation makes sense and I'd have agreed with it if there wasn't evidence from the books that the Seanchans had tried really hard to make the Aes Sedai useful as weapons,...Not hard enough, I guess. It just never occured to the Sul'dam to threaten the Damane (or her captured Warder) with death. You don't threaten a bad dog with death. Especially one your own mind is connected to, I guess.

You want to have Sul'dam failure trump simple logic?

...yet had been unable to. Jordan confirms it in his interviews:It's odd how Jordan can have 39 Aes Sedai justify cruel & very severe beatings with the OP as the weapon with wich the Aes Sedai inflicted many wounds on a harmless prisoner twice a day for weeks and can also state Damane can't be used as weapons. Sure, not all 39 Aes Sedai did the actual beatings, but all knew what was going on and noone ever wondered if that wasn't a clear cut case of using the OP as a Weapon. The fact that it was a non-lethal weapon doesn't make it less of a weapon.

The Oaths are all -and only- about perception. Simple.

FelixPax
01-06-2011, 02:51 PM
How dare you! There's still hope! Damn it all, if Nynaeve can cure madness, she can cure Tarna.

Hope is alive, for Tarna, as long as Nynaeve can 'heal death'. :cool:

subwoofer
01-06-2011, 08:42 PM
You can channel while bind. RJ answered a question about it. IIRC He said that the different threads have different "feels", so that while you could channel blind, the difficulties would be both in learning weaves, and knowing what exactly you were channeling at. But basically there is nothing inherent to blindness that stops channeling, any more than there is something inherent about blindness that stops someone from shooting a gun.

Well- Rand did channel while locked away in a box. I am fairly sure that the box was dark like the inside of a cow so I am not certain Rand could see anything- but he did feel the knots shielding him and then burst the box- channeling by touch, so I think depending on your skill level, vision is an optional thing.

Enigma
01-11-2011, 09:26 AM
Well- Rand did channel while locked away in a box. I am fairly sure that the box was dark like the inside of a cow so I am not certain Rand could see anything- but he did feel the knots shielding him and then burst the box- channeling by touch, so I think depending on your skill level, vision is an optional thing.

Rand channeled at two things while in the box. The first was the Aes Sedai maintaining the shield but he knew exactly where they were bacause he could sense their effect on the shield.

The second was at the box itself and he knew that it was around him so he did not have to see it. It was so small that all he had to do was to try and raise his head and he would feel it.

One can channell without seeing something but its like shooting a gun while blindfolded. Perhaps you will hit the target but you have a better chance of completly missing.

In Rand's case it was like someone was holding his left hand while he was blindfolded and had the pistol in his right hand. He knew exactly where his target was in relation to himself.

On a slight aside I wonder is it Fortuna's plan to destroy the White Tower as an institution as opposed to the building ie. kill as many Aes Sedai, Accepted and novices as possible or with the usual collar first kill only if not possible to collar will operate?

Cairn
01-12-2011, 11:34 AM
It's odd how Jordan can have 39 Aes Sedai justify cruel & very severe beatings with the OP as the weapon with wich the Aes Sedai inflicted many wounds on a harmless prisoner twice a day for weeks and can also state Damane can't be used as weapons. Sure, not all 39 Aes Sedai did the actual beatings, but all knew what was going on and noone ever wondered if that wasn't a clear cut case of using the OP as a Weapon. The fact that it was a non-lethal weapon doesn't make it less of a weapon.

I think you make a lot of good points about how perception affects the Oaths, but I have to disagree with your conclusion on this one.

I don't find these two occurances odd at all. (Aes Sedai beating/torturing/disciplining Rand vs Aes Sedai damane being unable to be used as weapons)

A disciplining parent or torturer wouldn't consider their tools as 'weapons', despite the fact that they give pain. I think some amount of lethality is inherent in the term 'weapon'. It's specifically stated that Elaida could use the One Power on Egwene to beat her because it was a matter of discipline.

Perhaps you could find an Aes Sedai or two that found themselves unable to beat Rand due to their perception, but it seems more plausible that usage would not be considered 'as a weapon'.

GonzoTheGreat
01-12-2011, 11:55 AM
That is indeed the way in which AS weasel out of admitting to themselves that they used the OP as a weapon.

The Angry Druid
01-13-2011, 12:41 AM
Beyond the AS using the OP as a weapon discussion, I was kind of disappointed the Seanchan weren't dealt with in ToM.

Kind of strange Buddha Rand never made a second run at them, isn't it?

Anyway, I can't stand Tuon and was hoping someone would kick her ass. I was hoping it would be Rand, or Egwene and a bunch of linked channelers, or Elayne undermining her by exposing her secret.

All that seems unlikely, so now I'm hoping that when the Seanchan attack the WT, Mat will be there getting the Horn, blow it, and Artur Hawkwing himself will proceed to kick Seanchan ass, again. In full view.

subwoofer
01-14-2011, 08:01 PM
Beyond the AS using the OP as a weapon discussion, I was kind of disappointed the Seanchan weren't dealt with in ToM.

Kind of strange Buddha Rand never made a second run at them, isn't it?

Anyway, I can't stand Tuon and was hoping someone would kick her ass. I was hoping it would be Rand, or Egwene and a bunch of linked channelers, or Elayne undermining her by exposing her secret.

All that seems unlikely, so now I'm hoping that when the Seanchan attack the WT, Mat will be there getting the Horn, blow it, and Artur Hawkwing himself will proceed to kick Seanchan ass, again. In full view.

I dunno. If that happened, I am thinking that the Seanchan, as a group would all fall to grovelling at the sight of Hawkwing. That would be humbling enough for anyone.

Goldie
01-18-2011, 10:32 AM
Sorry to bring this back up after it had been closed, but I had some thoughts on it over the weekend.

Channeling blindfolded - I think it could be possible with practice. I knit. Now, I have been knitting long enough that I can do it by touch alone. The other night I was watching a movie with the lights off, and was still able to knit just fine. I don't remember exactly where, but I do remember someone saying the different "elements" felt different. So I think it could be possible with practice to learn to identify them by feel and weave them by feel alone.

Just my opinion.

Lohikaarme
01-18-2011, 01:39 PM
I do remember someone saying the different "elements" felt different. So I think it could be possible with practice to learn to identify them by feel and weave them by feel alone.

IIRC that was RJ himself (digging quotes, will be edited if I find it->). Anyways I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible.

Terez
01-18-2011, 04:07 PM
IIRC that was RJ himself (digging quotes, will be edited if I find it->). Anyways I see no reason why it wouldn't be possible.
It was RJ. One Power category, CTRL-F 'colors' found it, though 'powers' would have worked too.

RJ's blog 22 November 2005 "I'M BAAAA-AAACK" (http://www.dragonmount.com/RobertJordan/?p=29)

Someone asked how difficult it is for a blind person to channel, but I didn’t make a note of who. In any case, it is difficult but not impossible. The different flows have different feels, though saying they have different flavors might be as accurate. In the comic, we use colors, not because they actually have colors but because they also can be told apart by sight. Someone who was blind and who tried to learn to channel would be able to differentiate between flows of the Five Powers. The difficulty would be in learning to make the weaves.
Of course, the reason I went for 'colors' was that I remembered this apparent contradiction:

TOR Questions of the Week, August 2004-January 2005 (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/03/tor-questions-of-week.html)

Week 9 Question: When a person channels, where do the flows appear to originate from? Do they extrude themselves somehow from the person's body, or do they seem to appear out of thin air in the channeler's general vicinity? What do the flows look like to a person who can channel? Are they colored, clear or indeterminate, smooth or rough, wispy or solid?

Robert Jordan Answers: To the channeler, the flows seem to originate in his or her very immediate vicinity, not to emanate from themselves, although to another channeler, those flows do seem to be emanating from the channeler. The latter is the actual case, as the One Power is passing through the channeler, one of the reasons for individual limits on how much of the Power a particular person can handle. (And you have seen characters react as if to a blow from having a flow snapped or cut.)

A channeler sees the flows as colored very faintly, according to which of the Five Powers is involved (red = Fire, Blue = Water, green = Earth, yellow = Air, white = Spirit), although the "feel" of the flows are also different to a channeler, so that a channeler can tell one from another without actually seeing them. (That is how someone can tell that somebody else has channeled, say, Fire and Earth, in their vicinity without seeing the flows.) It isn't a physical feel; you might almost as well say that they have different flavors. They appear to be smooth and nearly transparent, tinged with color.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2011, 04:19 AM
Which, of course, raises the question: could you still channel effectively if you were color blind?

padfoot89
01-19-2011, 08:23 AM
I would think so. Color blind people would still be able to differentiate based on flavors.
In the AoL, I guess there would have been specialized OP training for people with different disabilities assuming that those disabilities couldn't be Healed.
In the current age, Browns probably know most about teaching OP in that way.

GonzoTheGreat
01-19-2011, 08:50 AM
Yeah, or the Reds would simply beat the "sillyness" out of the girls.
Of course, far fewer women than men suffer from color blindness, so it is not something that would be encountered all that often in the White Tower. Based on this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_blindness), I would expect less than a handful of cases amongst full AS, even if it did not stop them from gaining the shawl.

In the Black Tower, on the other hand, things would be rather different. There, there might be over a hundred cases. Which, obviously, would mean a lot of work for Taim.

Juan
01-19-2011, 12:07 PM
Only thing is channeling in terms of a fighting with the use of the OP might prove ineffective. And this goes for situations similar to this where the channeler needs to see in order to truly be effective. How will the channeler know who/what/where to attack. Sure, he/she can channel, but how limited will they be in their effectiveness of their channeling in multiple different cases? This is why I think eyesight, is an obvious plus to a channeler.

Goldie
01-19-2011, 12:20 PM
@Juan - I agree, being able to see your weaving is a plus. My thought was just that it is possible. There are examples of instinctual weaving (Nynaeve healing Aviendha's friend (sorry, at work and can't remember the name)) and the aforementioned Rand breaking the box. There are also mentions about how much harder it is to weave around yourself since you can't see the weaves very well. Personally, there are a lot of things I do better when I can see what I am doing. :)

Fie
01-20-2011, 04:45 AM
Reading this, I had to think of the often repeated "The light blind you!" "Light-blinded fool" etc. :cool:
But, not seeing obviously not being a plus, other senses should be sharper though, so blind channellers could be better sensing waves flavours and whatever. A small comfort,though.

Lohikaarme
01-20-2011, 02:17 PM
A thing I've been thinking of: if a blind person were to learn to channel (s)he would probably desing weaves to aid in sensing the surrounding world. A simple example: fire deals with energy&stuff, including light. There should be a weave which allows the person to find out which direction the light is coming from, its strenght, colour... find out just about anything of the surrounding world like Egwenes metal finding.

Juan
01-20-2011, 02:27 PM
@Goldie
Definitely! :P

@Fie
I could buy into that. That made me think of something. You know how blind people often times use a stick to check what's in front of them? I wonder if channelers could use Air to achieve that same result.

@Lohi
Interesting thought for sure. But if I remember correctly, Egwene could use her talent with Earth to identify ores. Not necessarily other objects. And not everyone can identify ores like Egwene.

Crispin's Crispian
01-20-2011, 03:17 PM
I don't really care to see Aes Sedai be slaughtered but I do hope Tuon's plan succeeds and she levels the White Tower to dust while they're all on the FOM.

Barring that, she could simply just take control of the White Tower and keep it intanct and fortify it against Aes Sedai being able to re-enter their tower. Now that would be sweet too :).
Sorry to bring this part back up, but I was just thinking it would be friggin' hilarious if the Seanchan showed up, guns blazing, and...the Tower was all but empty.

It'd be like when Geraldo opened Al Capone's safe. Anyone else remember that?

Terez
01-20-2011, 03:24 PM
Sorry to bring this part back up, but I was just thinking it would be friggin' hilarious if the Seanchan showed up, guns blazing, and...the Tower was all but empty.

It'd be like when Geraldo opened Al Capone's safe. Anyone else remember that?
I do believe Uno said it best (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=124457#post124457).

1Powerslave
01-20-2011, 07:12 PM
Urk! I really hope we don't have to see anymore silliness from Tuon such as attacking the White Tower, now, in the middle of Tarmon Gaidon. Realize you can channel, get over it and field thrice damane many channelers!

Terez
01-20-2011, 09:06 PM
I really liked Deadsy's theory (which was the genesis of the thread I linked - Uno was just a random comment from the thread).

The Immortal One
01-20-2011, 09:18 PM
This is why I think eyesight, is an obvious plus to a channeler.

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm fairly certain that eyesight is a plus to just about anybody.

I would think so. Color blind people would still be able to differentiate based on flavors.
In the AoL, I guess there would have been specialized OP training for people with different disabilities assuming that those disabilities couldn't be Healed.


I wouldn't think that colour-blindness would be all that great a problem, or cause for much alteration in teaching methods - at least not in the modern age, in the Age of Legends teaching may have been different.

From what we've seen it is fairly easy for even the newest novices to differentiate between the flows; and then, of course, it's simply a matter of practice.

Juan
01-21-2011, 01:46 AM
An empty WT would be beyond hilarious.

And unless that happens my preference would be for the Seanchan to stop attacking.

@Immortal
And here I thought eyesight was a nuisance. Thanks for the info.

subwoofer
01-22-2011, 09:23 AM
I really liked Deadsy's theory (which was the genesis of the thread I linked - Uno was just a random comment from the thread).

Wowza! I'm liking that theory too.It might actually work. Then Elane would really owe "her worthy subject" one.

Enigma
01-22-2011, 01:08 PM
Is Mat still Elayne's subject being the Prince of Ravens and all? Perhaps she would owe the consort of the Seanchan Empress may he live forever :D

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2011, 04:56 AM
Is Mat still Elayne's subject being the Prince of Ravens and all?More interesting question: what if Elayne demands that Rand, being one of her subjects, submits to her?
That'd be a very interesting political mess, wouldn't it?

Enigma
01-23-2011, 11:21 AM
The de facto leader of the entire Aiel nation and the crowned king of Illain bowing to the throne of Andor? That would be an intersting political problem.

Elayne does have one problem thought from a legal point of view. To my knowledge no one in the Two Rivers region has ever sworn allegience to the throne in Andor nor have they paid taxes or submitted to the authority of the crown.

In the real world similar problems did not stop people from being tried for treason. The most recent one I can think of was William Joyce aka Lord Haw Haw who was born in the US but executed by the British for treason. For those who like braveheart William Wallace who was also executed for treason even thought he never swore fielty to the English crown. Of course note of them had the military might of several nations behind them at least when they died.

morat'corlm
01-23-2011, 01:00 PM
That's the fun part of the Two Rivers giving up anarchic self-government for having feudal lords and ladies, isn't it? The master whistles and the proud duopotamians come to heel.

FelixPax
01-23-2011, 02:54 PM
Is Mat still Elayne's subject being the Prince of Ravens and all? Perhaps she would owe the consort of the Seanchan Empress may he live forever :D


Other way around, Elayne is a subject of Mat Cauthon's. How? By Elayne's own promised words, in an Oath on the honor of Rose Crown of Andor, to Mat Cauthon at the Wandering Woman Inn.

Nynaeve gave the identical promises, plus an added promise to never to shout at Mat Cauthon again.


Mat's a free man, as even Elayne was forced to acknowledge in TofM book.



Edit: Argh! Cross off another simple claim... as Mat Cauthon claims this to Morgase's future husband Tallanvor, in Caemlyn:



Mat hardly realized Tallanvor’s hand was moving before the officer’s sword was resting against his neck. “I will take you to the Queen, countryman,” Tallanvor said softly. “But know that I can take your head before you blink if you so much as think of harming her.”

Mat put on his best grin. That slightly curved blade felt sharp on the side of his neck. “I am a loyal Andorman,” he said, “and a faithful subject of the Queen, the Light illumine her. Why, if I had been here during the winter, I’d have followed Lord Gaebril for sure.”

Tallanvor gave him a tight-mouthed stare, then finally took his sword away. Mat swallowed and stopped himself from touching his throat to see if he had been cut.
“Take the flower out of your hair,” Tallanvor said as he sheathed his blade. “Do you think you came here courting?”


The Dragon Reborn, Chapter 46 "A Message Out of the Shadow" -- Mat Cauthon point of view; with Tallanvor

Perhaps another marriage is in the offing?
Each subject to another's marriage partner will?
Mat to three women: Fortuona, Elayne, Aviendha
Rand to four women: Aviendha, Elayne, Min, Mierin(?)

First-Brothers to become?
Rand, Mat?

FelixPax
01-23-2011, 03:02 PM
The de facto leader of the entire Aiel nation and the crowned king of Illain bowing to the throne of Andor? That would be an intersting political problem.

Elayne does have one problem thought from a legal point of view. To my knowledge no one in the Two Rivers region has ever sworn allegience to the throne in Andor nor have they paid taxes or submitted to the authority of the crown.




Elayne is claims are similar to Tuon's own Seanchan Empire's claims to rule the Westlands. A dead ancestor or ancestors prior Oaths.

Mat's a common nexus to rid the Westlands, of wars based upon those two particular claims--in the near future.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2011, 04:39 PM
That's the fun part of the Two Rivers giving up anarchic self-government for having feudal lords and ladies, isn't it? The master whistles and the proud duopotamians come to heel.I've repped you for that.

Terez
01-23-2011, 04:44 PM
He stole it from Leigh Butler.

GonzoTheGreat
01-23-2011, 04:57 PM
He stole it from Leigh Butler.Theft is property (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Property_is_theft).

Juan
01-23-2011, 06:59 PM
An even better question is:

If Bela and Mandarb were in the same room, would they have sex?

1Powerslave
01-23-2011, 07:21 PM
That word isn't even googleable... :eek:

Kimon
01-23-2011, 08:36 PM
I couldn't resist, so I tried to google it as well. Apparently google thought I was a moron, and suggested Mesopotamians. I must say however, that I rather like Duopotamians as a demonym, certainly flows better than Two Riversers.

GonzoTheGreat
01-24-2011, 04:57 AM
The search engine zoeken.nl does give you five pages of possibilities. It also suggests that you might want to try "duopot ami ans".

morat'corlm
01-24-2011, 07:08 AM
I've repped you for that.Undeservedly, as Terez notes. I'm kind of surprised you haven't heard it before, though; it's been around since at least 2004.