PDA

View Full Version : Jain's Final Mystery


Xarra
11-10-2010, 04:43 AM
If you ever meet a Malkeri, tell them Jain Farstrider died clean

What did Jain DO to the Malkeri? So much that they're the last thought on his mind? Not repenting to the light, not 'sorry Mat'... But the Malkeri...

Servus Christi
11-10-2010, 04:47 AM
What did Jain DO to the Malkeri? So much that they're the last thought on his mind? Not repenting to the light, not 'sorry Mat'... But the Malkeri...

Jain was Malkieri born and raised, I believe. Cowin Gemallan, the Darkfriend who brought ruin to Malkier was captured by Jain.

Terez
11-10-2010, 04:49 AM
What did Jain DO to the Malkeri? So much that they're the last thought on his mind? Not repenting to the light, not 'sorry Mat'... But the Malkeri...
Farstrider was Malkieri. He was mentioned in the story Agelmar told to Rand et al. in TEOTW. We also know that he was being influenced by the Shadow, though we're not sure how. We got one POV from him before he met Mat, and he was stalking Darkfriends for some reason. He knew their names, and thought of them somewhat familiarly. He was under Ishamael's influence at one point for sure, and perhaps Graendal as well. There was an old man seen in her place way back in TFOH, and supposedly she never had Alsalam.

Jonai
11-10-2010, 07:09 AM
In addition to what Terez said, twenty years before the events in tEotW he arrived in Stedding Shangtai, near death, saying that the DO planned to blind the Eye of the World. In 981 NE, after a trip to the Blight, he disappeared. Ishamael brags that he 'painted him for fool' and 'sent him to the Ogier.' I think its generally assumed that he was captured by Ishy and broken, and used as a play thing for the Shadow. That would account for his amnesia and injuries.

Davian93
11-10-2010, 09:01 AM
I think Farstrider will end up being one of those great mysteries that is never cleared up by RJ/BS. I doubt we'll get any more info on what exactly he did for the Shadow or what Ishy did to him. Clearly though, Jain had major regrets (on the level of Ingtar I'm guessing)

Jonai
11-10-2010, 09:06 AM
You know, it seems like Farstrider, Ingtar, and Verin have done more to contribute to the direct defeat of the DO than many of so called good guys. :) Talk about redemption. :)

Servus Christi
11-10-2010, 09:08 AM
You know, it seems like Farstrider, Ingtar, and Verin have done more to contribute to the direct defeat of the DO than many of so called good guys. :) Talk about redemption. :)

Jain was never a Darkfriend. He was simply used by the Shadow and by all indications against his will.

Davian93
11-10-2010, 09:24 AM
Jain was never a Darkfriend. He was simply used by the Shadow and by all indications against his will.

There's no real proof as to whether he was a darkfriend or not. Its one of those mysteries that has no right answer right now.

Servus Christi
11-10-2010, 09:40 AM
There's no real proof as to whether he was a darkfriend or not. Its one of those mysteries that has no right answer right now.

Well, I suppose I should not be so dogmatic in my statement that he was not. But honestly, from reading the series, I've never gotten a sense that Jain was a Darkfriend. More that he was simply used by Ishy.

Khoram
11-10-2010, 01:36 PM
Well, I suppose I should not be so dogmatic in my statement that he was not. But honestly, from reading the series, I've never gotten a sense that Jain was a Darkfriend. More that he was simply used by Ishy.

Of course, reading the series, I never really suspected Verin (although I think I should have) until we were told in TGS that she was Black Ajah.

However, they never say that Jain was turned, only "played with and broken". So I too never suspected Jain as being a darkfriend. But I've been wrong before.

Tarion
11-10-2010, 01:44 PM
I'm expecting the following
Lan - "Bloody Jain didn't do enough to save Malkier"
Mat - "Oh, yeah... You're Malkieri. Jain died clean"
Lan - "Never mind then."

Khoram
11-10-2010, 01:54 PM
I'm expecting the following
Lan - "Bloody Jain didn't do enough to save Malkier"
Mat - "Oh, yeah... You're Malkieri. Jain died clean"
Lan - "Never mind then."

When Mat reaches Tarwin's Gap with Moiraine and Thom, right? :D

ckparrothead
11-10-2010, 04:54 PM
Is this another of those things where there's a normal standard of proof and then there's a theoryland standard of proof?

Come on.

Jain was used by Ishamael, manipulated, compulsed, confunded, and made to do whatever they desired, until he was finally able to break free from it and given the chance to slip in a few jabs of his own.

Mat is Better
11-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Agreed. Jain is a good man.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:26 PM
What did Jain DO to the Malkeri? So much that they're the last thought on his mind? Not repenting to the light, not 'sorry Mat'... But the Malkeri...

When Cowin Fairheart's treachery was revealed and he was taken by young Jain Charin --Already called Jain Farstrider-- when Fairheart was brought to the Seven Towers in chains, the Great Lords called for his head on a pike.

Also he vanished after a trip into the blight in 981.

He also started the rumor that led 2 forsaken to the eye of the world (one of the ways he was used by the shadow). He left his wife to die alone.

That is all I can find in any of the books. Weird.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:28 PM
Well, I suppose I should not be so dogmatic in my statement that he was not. But honestly, from reading the series, I've never gotten a sense that Jain was a Darkfriend. More that he was simply used by Ishy.

Ishy outright says it. He says he painted Jain Farstrider to be a fool. Why would he paint a darkfriend to be a fool? Jain wasn't a darkfriend. He was just used.

ckparrothead
11-10-2010, 05:30 PM
The funny thing to me is the almost parallel with Lan. Jain disappeared into the Blight, I forget why he was going there, but obviously he went alone and must have had at least some kind of death wish. Maybe he'd just seen everything he could see and wanted to die clean, as he said at the end of the book. But he didn't die clean, he was captured by Ishamael and forced to do the Shadow's bidding.

Lan Mandragoran had a death wish, he wanted to go marching into the Blight by himself as well. He could have been captured and made to do the Shadow's bidding as well. But he met Moiraine and the rest is history.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:32 PM
The funny thing to me is the almost parallel with Lan. Jain disappeared into the Blight, I forget why he was going there, but obviously he went alone and must have had at least some kind of death wish. Maybe he'd just seen everything he could see and wanted to die clean, as he said at the end of the book. But he didn't die clean, he was captured by Ishamael and forced to do the Shadow's bidding.

Lan Mandragoran had a death wish, he wanted to go marching into the Blight by himself as well. He could have been captured and made to do the Shadow's bidding as well. But he met Moiraine and the rest is history.

He was taken because he discovered the ____ in the blight. That was one of the main things he couldn't remember. Wonder if the one guy he remembered seeing, but couldn't remember where wasn't actually Seanchan, but was from the ____ in the blight?

ckparrothead
11-10-2010, 05:33 PM
He was taken because he discovered the ____ in the blight.

Do we know this? Or is it speculation?

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:34 PM
Do we know this? Or is it speculation?

total speculation.

metaphor
11-10-2010, 06:45 PM
total speculation.

But plausible, considering that he also managed to see Ruhidean and enter Shara.
I hope he'll be back as a Hero of the Horn. He certainly fits the bill.

One Armed Gimp
11-10-2010, 07:14 PM
But plausible, considering that he also managed to see Ruhidean and enter Shara.
I hope he'll be back as a Hero of the Horn. He certainly fits the bill.

That would be pretty pimp.

Madgod
11-10-2010, 07:20 PM
I hope he'll be back as a Hero of the Horn. He certainly fits the bill.

I really hope so, both him and Verin. They both deserve it, but mentally I doubt it happens. There's just not that many Heroes (<100 I think?), and so I think they haven't been promoted. Mat's reaction to Jain and Verin popping up when he blows the horn would be funny though.

Khoram
11-10-2010, 07:37 PM
Mat's reaction to Jain and Verin popping up when he blows the horn would be funny though.

If that were to happen, I don't know what I'd do. I'd just hope I'm a) not on my way to school b) not at school c) essentially anywhere public.

jana
11-10-2010, 07:39 PM
There's just not that many Heroes (<100 I think?), and so I think they haven't been promoted.

They don't need to have been promoted. They could have been Heroes all along.

ckparrothead
11-10-2010, 07:39 PM
I don't think Verin would qualify. I mean, provided they had some sort of application and/or tryout process for being a Hero of the Horn.

metaphor
11-10-2010, 07:40 PM
I really hope so, both him and Verin. They both deserve it, but mentally I doubt it happens. There's just not that many Heroes (<100 I think?), and so I think they haven't been promoted. Mat's reaction to Jain and Verin popping up when he blows the horn would be funny though.

Jaine could already be a Hero, and he was spun out at the end of this age for some purpose.
And anyway Birgitte and Cain won't be there, so maybe the Wheel will add 2 new Heroes to substitute them.

Khoram
11-10-2010, 07:43 PM
Jaine could already be a Hero, and he was spun out at the end of this age for some purpose.
And anyway Birgitte and Cain won't be there, so maybe the Wheel will add 2 new Heroes to substitute them.

Or maybe only one, seeing as Birgitte was forcibly ripped from TAR.

Madgod
11-10-2010, 07:46 PM
They don't need to have been promoted. They could have been Heroes all along.

Maybe. TGH says "They were little more than a hundred, Rand saw, and realized that somehow he had know that they would be." I understood that to mean that (other than Rand and possibly Mat/Perrin) that was the sum total of Heroes. If that is the case, then neither Jain or Verin would have been Heroes before this life.

metaphor
11-10-2010, 08:13 PM
But then again, wouldn't Mat and Perrin fit more as heroes?
Heroes are tied to the wheel and are spun out at times when the Weel need them to do something. Ta'veren are spun by the Wheel tocorrect some mistake in the pattern, and are, in a way, tied to the weave. They are said to have less freedom than other threads, because they are guided more directly frm the WoT, and the other thread turn around them.
Last time, though, Hawkwing and the others didn't seem to recognize Mat and Perrin, even though they saluted Rand.

Madgod
11-10-2010, 08:17 PM
But then again, wouldn't Mat and Perrin fit more as heroes?
Heroes are tied to the wheel and are spun out at times when the Weel need them to do something. Ta'veren are spun by the Wheel tocorrect some mistake in the pattern, and are, in a way, tied to the weave. They are said to have less freedom than other threads, because they are guided more directly frm the WoT, and the other thread turn around them.
Last time, though, Hawkwing and the others didn't seem to recognize Mat and Perrin, even though they saluted Rand.

I always thought that especially Mat and maybe Perrin were Heroes. Maybe Hawkwing was just concentrating on Rand/LTT at the time, or maybe he just didn't recognize Mat when he had two eyes. Next time they see each other Hawkwing will randomly say "So your the one-eyed goof-off we have to deal with all the time!" or something to that effect. Thats the only explanations I could ever think of.

Terez
11-10-2010, 08:20 PM
Is this another of those things where there's a normal standard of proof and then there's a theoryland standard of proof?

Come on.

Jain was used by Ishamael, manipulated, compulsed, confunded, and made to do whatever they desired, until he was finally able to break free from it and given the chance to slip in a few jabs of his own.
'Compulsed' is not a word. But yes, he was most likely Compelled. He shows signs of it in his POV:

TITLE - A Crown of Swords
CHAPTER: 17 - The Triumph of Logic

Sitting on an upended barrel in the sparse coolness of a narrow, shaded alley, he studied the house across the busy street. Suddenly he realized he was touching his head again. He did not have a headache, but his head felt... peculiar... sometimes. Most often when he thought of what he could not remember.

Three stories of white plaster, the house belonged to a goldsmith who supposedly was being visited by two friends she had met on a journey north some years ago. The friends had only been glimpsed on arrival and not seen since. Finding that out had been easy, finding out they were Aes Sedai only a trifle more difficult.

A lean young man in a torn vest, whistling his way down the street with no good on his mind, paused when he glimpsed him sitting on the barrel. His coat and his location in the shadows - and the rest of him, he admitted ruefully - probably looked tempting. He reached under his coat. His hands no longer possessed the strength or flexibility for swordwork, but the two long knives he had carried for well over thirty years had surprised more than one swordsman. Maybe something showed in his eyes, because the lean young man thought better of it and whistled his way on.

Beside the house, the gate that led back to the goldsmith's stable swung open, and two burly men appeared pushing a barrow piled high with soiled straw and muck. What were they up to? Arnin and Nad were hardly the lads to be mucking out stables.

He would stay here until dark, he decided, then see whether he could find Carridin’s pretty little killer again.

Once again he pulled his hand down from his head. Sooner or later, he would remember. He did not have much time left, but it was all he did have. He remembered that much.
Of course, since he's not named and we don't meet Noal until WH, a lot of people miss that.

Jaine could already be a Hero, and he was spun out at the end of this age for some purpose.
And anyway Birgitte and Cain won't be there, so maybe the Wheel will add 2 new Heroes to substitute them.
Min's viewing indicates that Birgitte is still a Hero, and still tied to Gaidal.

metaphor
11-10-2010, 08:30 PM
Min's viewing indicates that Birgitte is still a Hero, and still tied to Gaidal.

I worded that badly. i meant that she and Gaidan won't come out when Mat sounds the Horn.

Khoram
11-11-2010, 06:55 PM
They won't, but that doesn't necessarily exclude Mat and/or Perrin (or Jain) from being Heroes of the Horn, either. Just because "just over a hundred" is right to Rand's eyes, doesn't mean that there aren't some Heroes missing because they had been rewoven into the Pattern.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:26 AM
They won't, but that doesn't necessarily exclude Mat and/or Perrin (or Jain) from being Heroes of the Horn, either. Just because "just over a hundred" is right to Rand's eyes, doesn't mean that there aren't some Heroes missing because they had been rewoven into the Pattern.It could indeed be that every time the Horn is blown, about one in five of the Heroes is then spun out. This would make the total number somewhere around 125, and whenever the Horn is sounded, 100 would be called to attend (in addition to any that happened to be there anyway in the flesh).