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rusty
11-10-2010, 10:09 AM
I'm just wondering what superdooper plan Egwene has to get Rand to do what she wants (not break the seals). By her 'ace in the hole' I'm not referring to her plan of convincing the rules of Randland to oppose Rand - This is undoubtedly a completely futile effort.

She must have something she thinks she can hold over Rand to persuade him not to go ahead?

Could she want to capture him with an Odam? Doubtful, not least because she's experienced them first hand, and would probably not want to use these against anyone full stop. Let alone Rand, who's been caged twice now. There's no telling what he might do.

Could she want to set the Black tower against him?
Logain has been missing for a while, and she did set him free (off screen). Could she have reached an agreement for him to support her, or could she have infiltrated the Black tower with sisters who have bonded ashaman? Is she thinking to use the bond to control the ashaman? This simply won't work.

Are all the seals accounted for? Could she have one that she will refuse to break/give to rand?

Could she think to gain some level of influence by threatening Rand with Elayne? ie. Your lover is in my change and I refuse to let Elayne and therefor Andor go to the last battle? - Sounds like a typical Egwene thought process. If she intend to bully Elayne and Andor she's also in for a rude awakening.

Could she mean to let Rand know of the Seanchan threat? I doubt this will may any difference as Rand has already made his peace with them. ie he's given up on them. So if they attack his flanks while he's out fighting the last battle then so be it.

But the more I think about it, the more I think it's much more along the lines of "We the white tower have the Horn of Valere". We will not bring it to you, so you can forget about your crazy last battle ideas". I'm sure someone must have told Egwene where the horn is, but I doubt she knows the Mat has sounded it. Can't wait for people to realise this. If this is her ace I think this will fail spectacularly, as Mat will probably just stroll into Tar Valon, prevent a Seanchan attack, find the horn and saunter off to meet Rand with horn, Moraine, BotRH, and the seanchan in tow.

Would love to flesh this out a bit.

GonzoTheGreat
11-10-2010, 10:22 AM
Are all the seals accounted for? Could she have one that she will refuse to break/give to rand?She has one that is broken which Rand may not know about. Nynaeve may have told him, though. There's been plenty of time for it.
All the unbroken seals are under Rand's control, though.

thedragonreformed
11-10-2010, 10:44 AM
I'm just wondering what superdooper plan Egwene has to get Rand to do what she wants (not break the seals). By her 'ace in the hole' I'm not referring to her plan of convincing the rules of Randland to oppose Rand - This is undoubtedly a completely futile effort.

She must have something she thinks she can hold over Rand to persuade him not to go ahead?



A serene glare, with a slight narrowing of her eyes and the promise of Rand knowing her anger.

;)

Will she try to exploit the warder bond between Elayne and Rand? She strongly suspects, or has confirmed, that they are bonded. I wonder if she will try to ask/order Elayne to compel him not to break the seals, assuming she is not aware of Alanna's experience in trying to do that.

gholam
11-10-2010, 11:15 AM
A serene glare, with a slight narrowing of her eyes and the promise of Rand knowing her anger.

;)

Will she try to exploit the warder bond between Elayne and Rand? She strongly suspects, or has confirmed, that they are bonded. I wonder if she will try to ask/order Elayne to compel him not to break the seals, assuming she is not aware of Alanna's experience in trying to do that.

LOL! But I don't think exploiting the warder bond would work. Rand is being super ta'veren and Super AS now. If they try to manipulate the bond, he would do what he must (no no, I'm not talking leaving your friends tied up for the forsaken :)). He would somehow neutralize the bond. I believe he can do that. Now.

thedragonreformed
11-10-2010, 11:37 AM
LOL! But I don't think exploiting the warder bond would work. Rand is being super ta'veren and Super AS now. If they try to manipulate the bond, he would do what he must (no no, I'm not talking leaving your friends tied up for the forsaken :)). He would somehow neutralize the bond. I believe he can do that. Now.

I have no doubt it wont work :) I don't even believe Elayne would try to compel him (atleast I hope not), but it could be what Egwene has in mind, given her musing that the bond between Rand and Elayne would be very useful to her(Egwene).

gholam
11-10-2010, 11:42 AM
I have no doubt it wont work :) I don't even believe Elayne would try to compel him (atleast I hope not), but it could be what Egwene has in mind, given her musing that the bond between Rand and Elayne would be very useful to her(Egwene).

Yes I get it. This is one of her brilliant ideas which probably would lead eggy to be rescued by either Mat or Perrin. And after the rescue she say what she must. 'Men!'

Linnemir
11-10-2010, 11:46 AM
Could it be related to her abilities with creating and perhaps repairing cuilendar (sp?)?? Maybe she thinks she can fix all the broken seals???

Davian93
11-10-2010, 11:49 AM
Could it be related to her abilities with creating and perhaps repairing cuilendar (sp?)?? Maybe she thinks she can fix all the broken seals???

See, now THAT is actually an interesting idea. Egwene's knowledge of Cuendillar is actually valuable. Granted the DO's touch basically rotted the cuendillar away eventually but it did hold for 3500 years. Also, LTT was likely familiar with how to make cuendillar anyway as that's the material he chose for the Seals in the first place.

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 01:02 PM
I have no doubt it wont work :) I don't even believe Elayne would try to compel him (atleast I hope not), but it could be what Egwene has in mind, given her musing that the bond between Rand and Elayne would be very useful to her(Egwene).

If she even suggests this course of action she would lose all moral credibility. In my mind, it would be cause to have her stripped of the stole and stilled.

David Selig
11-10-2010, 01:08 PM
Seems to me she has nothing more than the plan to collect the armies. She probably thinks they and the combined glares of her, the other Aes Sedai and Wise Ones should be enough.

"Rand al'Thor, feel the power of our combined glares!"

Servus Christi
11-10-2010, 01:32 PM
She has no ace in the hole. She has nothing but her own arrogance. If you stuck her and Rand Sedai in T'A'R to duke it out in a battle of wills, I think she could best him, simply because she's got such an inflated sense of self that even the promised one, chosen by the Pattern as its defender against the Shadow, could not stand up to her almighty glare.

I am of the honest opinion that she believes that she will be the one to defeat the Dark One. It will be the White Tower against the Shadow, with the Dragon as her little lap-dog who needs to get put down before she can get to work on fixing what the fool men broke.

Matoyak
11-10-2010, 03:44 PM
I'm interested to see what she thinks she'll be able to do against the combined wills of the three most powerful Ta'veren that the world's (probably) ever seen.

Rand alone can freakin' cause nature to obey his whims, Perrin's caused queens to bow before him, and Mat has his Luck (whether that's a Ta'veren side-effect or not, it still applies, on top of his Ta'veren-ness.)

Will be fun to see what will happen when all three gather in one spot...we've seen them together before, in earlier books...but they've all gotten more, er, Ta'veren-y since then it seems (or maybe Perrin and Mat weren't Ta'veren at the time...hrm...well, whatever.)

X.X.
11-10-2010, 04:15 PM
Her ace in the hole is this huge intervention she's got planned. The amusing part being is that is exactly what Rand expected and so probably played right into his own plans.

The only bargaining chip she has is withholding AS support in the resealing process...which is pretty much what happened before. The women found his plan stupid so didn't help, but he did it anyway. Though this time around there are others aside from AS, though it doesn't seem many are on board with his plan.

It doesn't matter anyway. I have a feeling we're going to see what happens when the Ta'veren trio stand together with most likely the largest gathering of kingdoms and military forces in thousands of years....then Moiraine shows up and becomes the catalyst for whatever really SHOULD be done and makes Egwene look arrogant and stupid.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 04:21 PM
Her ace in the hole is this huge intervention she's got planned. The amusing part being is that is exactly what Rand expected and so probably played right into his own plans.

The only bargaining chip she has is withholding AS support in the resealing process...which is pretty much what happened before. The women found his plan stupid so didn't help, but he did it anyway. Though this time around there are others aside from AS, though it doesn't seem many are on board with his plan.

It doesn't matter anyway. I have a feeling we're going to see what happens when the Ta'veren trio stand together with most likely the largest gathering of kingdoms and military forces in thousands of years....then Moiraine shows up and becomes the catalyst for whatever really SHOULD be done and makes Egwene look arrogant and stupid.

Fortunately there are still AS in Rands camp.

Cadsuane (and her hangers-on) and Nynaeve

Moiraine would also likely support rand over Egwene. Perhaps one of her answers or questions will help here. Also keep in mind that she has a very powerful sa'angreal that she could loan to Nyn if necessary.

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 04:28 PM
I don't think it will transpire this way but if Mat and Perrin are both there and they back Rand, then Egwene is screwed. The three of them together is too much to overcome; the ta'veren effect will be massive. Even if Egwene is able to resist somehow, something I highly doubt, no one else will.

Landro
11-10-2010, 04:29 PM
Wouldn't it be fun if Min and Egwene met up again and Min had a viewing of Egwene about Rand having to teach something to Egwene and the other AS that they needed to learn but wouldn't like learning? :D

Strongman
11-10-2010, 04:52 PM
He's gonna show up and let them prattle on and on, then he will inform them he's already broke them.

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 04:58 PM
Wouldn't it be fun if Min and Egwene met up again and Min had a viewing of Egwene about Rand having to teach something to Egwene and the other AS that they needed to learn but wouldn't like learning? :D

Definitely got a chuckle out of this ;)

I think that X.X. is correct - Moraine showing up will be the catalyst which then Mat, Perrin, and Rand's collective Ta'veren-ess will get people moving in the right direction.

He's gonna show up and let them prattle on and on, then he will inform them he's already broke them.

Heh..

Egwene: "Rand, I've assembled all the people of the lands to stop you from breaking the Seals to the Dark One's prison."

Rand: "What do you mean, 'You're going to stop me?' I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my plan if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I broke the Seals thirty-five minutes ago."

The Angry Druid
11-10-2010, 05:04 PM
I think Egwene has no ace in the hole (though possession of the Horn and one of the seals themselves (or is it two?) is no small thing.

Though likely at this point, Teslyn would probably steal the Horn for him, and Egwene has toh to Mat, if she has any sense.

But I think this will be a largely ironic meeting. I think most of those Egwene has gathered to help her convince Rand not to break the seals will in fact, try to convince her to let him be about it.

Let's take a short survey.

Perrin: already on Rand's side. This bring in Faile, and

Alliandre & Berelain: also with Perrin. If both Rand and Perrin are for something (and Faile), I think these two will be neutral at best, and leaning towards Rand.

Nynaeve: is on Rand's side.

Elayne: was inclined to Rand's position. Or at least not aghast as Egwene was. And she's got Morgase with her (who can inlfuence Gawyn and Galad).

Aiel: Have seen the change in the Car'a'carn. The Chiefs will likely support him (if he's met his toh). And I think the WO's will too. Or at least be willing to listen or be neutral.

Darlin: He's seen post VoG Rand a lot, and the whole "look into my eyes" trick. Likely to be pro-Rand.

Gregorin. Less time around Rand. Seems likely to lean toward Elayne, but the WT did kindap Stepaneos.

Ituralde/Alsalan. Rand rescued the King from AS, and Ituralde has seen the glory. They'll be on his side for sure.

Borderlanders. Bashere is likely to be pro-Rand, he's seen him in action. And the Borderlander's own prophecy says he must break them. Likely on Rand's side.

Cadsuane/Min. Likely on Rand's side, especially with the changes.

Galad: who knows. Likely to be influenced by Morgase, Elayne, and Perrin.
------------

That really only leaves Egwene with her own forces (with Nynaeve, Elayne, and Cadsuane possible opposing her). The only other force I could see opposing him (justifiably) would be the Windfienders, as he a totally pissed all over that Bargain.

Landro
11-10-2010, 05:06 PM
Rand: "What do you mean, 'You're going to stop me?' I'm not a Republic serial villain. Do you seriously think I'd explain my plan if there remained the slightest chance of you affecting its outcome? I broke the Seals thirty-five minutes ago."

Watchmen :cool:

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 05:29 PM
Alliandre & Berelain: also with Perrin. If both Rand and Perrin are for something (and Faile), I think these two will be neutral at best, and leaning towards Rand.

Berelain is one of his most dedicated followers; I think out of all the monarchs she will be most in favor of Rand if push came to shove.

Nynaeve: is on Rand's side.

I'm sorry to say but it doesn't even matter whether she agrees with Rand or not, she'll stick with Egwene because she won't be party to undermining her and Rand isn't a woman.

Elayne: was inclined to Rand's position. Or at least not aghast as Egwene was. And she's got Morgase with her (who can inlfuence Gawyn and Galad).

She'll take Egwene's position no matter how dumb; this is proven over and over again. She's the monarch most likely to oppose Rand. She's one of the Grade A sexist in the story.

Aiel: Have seen the change in the Car'a'carn. The Chiefs will likely support him (if he's met his toh). And I think the WO's will too. Or at least be willing to listen or be neutral.

I agree; when it comes down to it, I think even the women will support him; the men are sure to.

Darlin: He's seen post VoG Rand a lot, and the whole "look into my eyes" trick. Likely to be pro-Rand.

Gregorin. Less time around Rand. Seems likely to lean toward Elayne, but the WT did kindap Stepaneos.

Ituralde/Alsalan. Rand rescued the King from AS, and Ituralde has seen the glory. They'll be on his side for sure.

Borderlanders. Bashere is likely to be pro-Rand, he's seen him in action. And the Borderlander's own prophecy says he must break them. Likely on Rand's side.

The wild cards but in my mind they'll oppose the plan up until Rand issues orders then that's that. They all swore to him; they won't back out on their oaths.

Cadsuane/Min. Likely on Rand's side, especially with the changes.

They won't directly oppose I think but they'll stay neutral. I can't imagine either being a strong advocate for Rand.

Grig
11-10-2010, 05:51 PM
I'm sorry to say but it doesn't even matter whether she agrees with Rand or not, she'll stick with Egwene because she won't be party to undermining her and Rand isn't a woman.

Hate Nynaeve much? This doesn't make much sense after ToM. Nynaeve made it clear that while she wanted to be Aes Sedai, she was going to support Rand at Shayol Ghul and the petty AS could go to hell if they thought otherwise. I wasn't a big Nynaeve fan, but after ToM she's by favorite female channeler (would be favorite female if not for Min).

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:52 PM
Hate Nynaeve much? This doesn't make much sense after ToM. Nynaeve made it clear that while she wanted to be Aes Sedai, she was going to support Rand at Shayol Ghul and the petty AS could go to hell if they thought otherwise. I wasn't a big Nynaeve fan, but after ToM she's by favorite female channeler (would be favorite female if not for Min).

I agree. Nynaeve has changed a lot for the better. I disliked her until recently. Now she is one of my favorites. She would side with Rand.

morat'corlm
11-10-2010, 05:55 PM
The same goes for Elayne; cone certainly dislikes her but she's never really been in Egwene's pocket and when push comes to shove I doubt she'll side against warm-Rand. And Min will emphatically be on his side; she proposed destroying the seals to him in the first place. Cadsuane respects him now, too, and certainly has no reason to side with Egwene.

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 05:55 PM
I like Nynaeve a lot but I have a real hard time visualizing her directly opposing Egwene in front of all the world's leaders and advocating for Rand's side. I would love her more if she did though.

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 05:59 PM
The same goes for Elayne; cone certainly dislikes her but she's never really been in Egwene's pocket and when push comes to shove I doubt she'll side against warm-Rand.

I hate Elayne; I can't deny that. I even try to visualize her as a young Charlize Theron so I can at least excuse Rand for agreeing to stand within shouting distance of her petulant presence.

And I admit she might be more of a wild card than I give her credit for, but she's still the person that suggested Rand bow down before Egwene in an earlier book and who took Egwene's side in front of Perrin and Faile in the latest book.

Grig
11-10-2010, 06:03 PM
The same goes for Elayne; ... she's never really been in Egwene's pocket and when push comes to shove I doubt she'll side against warm-Rand.

That I'm really not sure about. Elayne hasn't really expressed any warm fuzzies about Rand, and Queen!Elayne needs to think about politics politics politics. She will not publicly oppose Egwene, if for no other reason than to keep good relations between the Tower and Andor/Cairhien. The Dragon is only supposed to last until the Last Battle, whereas the Amyrlin is expected to go for a good 400 years. Elayne is consumed by political considerations at this point, but at least she deals with friends better than Egwene. But the confrontation at the Fields is definitely going to be a political one, not a personal one for her.

Perhaps she'll surprise me. That would be nice. I did like her interaction with Mat in ToM. But she focuses entirely too much on how to best ensure her legacy post-Rand to make me think she'll risk political standing for Rand against Egwene.

Dewairah
11-10-2010, 06:07 PM
did everyone else get the impression that egwenes opposition to rand's plan wasnt so much that it could be a bad idea (it might be but at this point its as good an idea as any other) but more so that she didnt come up with it herself or did not have a part in the decision making.

The irony is that rand was the one giving the speech about "fearing irrelevance" etc.

Egwene has shown she's quite capable of ordering/planning things which most people would consider disasterous/dangerous - but its all fine and dandy for her to do so because it was her idea (as both the amyrlin and a woman..)

I think they need a couple more books in the series so they can write an arc that involves her pulling her head out of her ass, - like Nynaeve did.

Thing that annoys me is that elayne was more bareable back in the Stone of tear in TDR than she is now. She's almost as bad as Egwene. Almost. I guess she's also pregnant and women go weird during pregnancy.

David Selig
11-10-2010, 06:19 PM
So far in the series Elayne has usually been the one trying to reach a compromise when her friends are arguing. I think this will be her role now too in the Rand-Egwene conflict. She's also taken Rand's side a few times when Egwene complained about him in their T'A'R meetings while Egwene was in the Waste.

Nynaeve will stand with Rand, I am almost certain of it.

The Wise Ones seem to trust Egwene too much for some reason which I still can't get but they respect rand too. This one is too close to call for me.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 06:30 PM
did everyone else get the impression that egwenes opposition to rand's plan wasnt so much that it could be a bad idea (it might be but at this point its as good an idea as any other) but more so that she didnt come up with it herself or did not have a part in the decision making.

The irony is that rand was the one giving the speech about "fearing irrelevance" etc.

Egwene has shown she's quite capable of ordering/planning things which most people would consider disasterous/dangerous - but its all fine and dandy for her to do so because it was her idea (as both the amyrlin and a woman..)

I think they need a couple more books in the series so they can write an arc that involves her pulling her head out of her ass, - like Nynaeve did.

Thing that annoys me is that elayne was more bareable back in the Stone of tear in TDR than she is now. She's almost as bad as Egwene. Almost. I guess she's also pregnant and women go weird during pregnancy.

To be honest no. I dislike her now, but she really doesn't seem to be like that. I suspect it is more her distrust of men and self assured behavior combined with complete fear from 3000 years of the seals being the only thing keeping the DO at bay.

I think she is super egotistical, but I don't think her not being involved had anything to do with it.

I won't say that breaking the seals is the right thing to do, but she didn't even pause to think or discuss. Instant back arch fur up hissing fit. That she has continued this for a full month without contemplating it is astounding. Maybe she'll come around and talk Rand out of it by having a better idea rather than trying to manipulate him using his friends and loved ones.

Mort
11-10-2010, 06:39 PM
did everyone else get the impression that egwenes opposition to rand's plan wasnt so much that it could be a bad idea (it might be but at this point its as good an idea as any other) but more so that she didnt come up with it herself or did not have a part in the decision making.

The irony is that rand was the one giving the speech about "fearing irrelevance" etc.

Egwene has shown she's quite capable of ordering/planning things which most people would consider disasterous/dangerous - but its all fine and dandy for her to do so because it was her idea (as both the amyrlin and a woman..)

I think they need a couple more books in the series so they can write an arc that involves her pulling her head out of her ass, - like Nynaeve did.

Thing that annoys me is that elayne was more bareable back in the Stone of tear in TDR than she is now. She's almost as bad as Egwene. Almost. I guess she's also pregnant and women go weird during pregnancy.

I didn't get that at all. Some serious hatin' there ;)

Elayne was more bareable back then because she didn't have all the responsibility that she has now that makes her act tougher. It also doesn't help that the whole Andor throne story arc is pissboring and doesn't have much at all to do with the story overall. And the baths. Always the baths.

I also didn't get the vibe that Elayne was in Rand's camp about the seals like a lot of others got. I think I remember her saying it was a bad idea? Definetely not any supportive comments anyway.

Nyneave will definetely stand with Rand. Hopefully she'll express her stance very strongly when in meeting with Egwene and the rest of the hall. Not so sure Nyn would undermine the Amyrlins position like that in a huge meeting, she would try and take that discussion internally with the AS.

dpt24
11-10-2010, 06:44 PM
I don't dislike Egwene too much. The thing is, I really get annoyed with is that her being raised to Amrylin seat hasn't really improved relations between Rand and the Aes Sedai. When I first read Egwene was being raised, I was like "good, now the white tower, or at least the Rebels, will actually work with the Dragon Reborn" instead, they've barely interacted...

Davian93
11-10-2010, 08:00 PM
I like Nynaeve a lot but I have a real hard time visualizing her directly opposing Egwene in front of all the world's leaders and advocating for Rand's side. I would love her more if she did though.

I dont...Nynaeve will be with Rand at Shayol Ghul...Period.

BTW, there have been several really misogynistic comments in this thread...kinda ironic considering the topic turned to how sexist certain female characters are.

Just sayin'.

Dewairah
11-10-2010, 08:16 PM
i hope you're not referring to my comment about women going weird during pregnancy.

This is a scientific fact observed since time immemorial: From the cravings for strange foods, to the aversion to typically enjoyed foods, to 'baby brain'/forgetfulness, to mood swings and often irrational behaviour, etc.

Any man who has found himself driving around at 3am in the morning trying to buy olives for a craving pregnant wife - or similar - will testify to such.

:rolleyes:

And if you think thats bad.. you wait till post-natal depression kicks in :)

Davian93
11-10-2010, 08:35 PM
Of course its necessary. Its a very apt description of her but if you would prefer to call a spade a trowel, or a hammer... thats you prerogative.

Its kinda sad that you think that that is an appropriate way to describe any woman.

I dont care for her myself (if I haven't made that obvious of late) but there's a line and you crossed it.

Dewairah
11-10-2010, 08:39 PM
Sure its perfectly acceptable to refer to people according to their actions.

Similarly, if I was a character who spent the last 8 books with my head up my ass, i'd probably expect readers to have some pretty colourful names to apply to me :), and rightly so!

Tamyrlin
11-10-2010, 09:00 PM
Sure its perfectly acceptable to refer to people according to their actions.

Similarly, if I was a character who spent the last 8 books with my head up my ass, i'd probably expect readers to have some pretty colourful names to apply to me :), and rightly so!

To Everyone

Please refrain from such comments (no I'm not going to make a list.) I'm not instituting some "bad word" filter, because it's turns out to be ridiculous. However, I'd like those kinds of denigrating remarks kept off the forums, no matter how well deserved such descriptions appear to be, according to your personal experiences.

I haven't had time to keep up with the quantity of posts lately, so such comments have gone unremarked, but we'll be tightening up the forums over the next few weeks as all of the new users are not familiar with our forums.

Dewairah
11-10-2010, 09:07 PM
no matter how well deserved such descriptions appear to me.


LOL *Hi5* :cool:


Ok Tam. you're the boss.

Tamyrlin
11-10-2010, 09:14 PM
LOL *Hi5* :cool:


Ok Tam. you're the boss.

I meant to write "appear to be". Classic, Lol - geesh.

finn
11-11-2010, 02:27 AM
They won't directly oppose I think but they'll stay neutral. I can't imagine either being a strong advocate for Rand.
Cadsuane thought his intentions overly dramatic but as it resonates with the Borderlander prophecy, she'll see the wisdom. Of them all, only "Rand sedai" has the knowledge & direct experience to come up with the right answer in this matter.

And why would Min remain neutral? She came up with the theory having followed Fel's work. She'd be the chief proponent.

nameless
11-11-2010, 02:56 AM
Elayne was more bareable back then because she didn't have all the responsibility that she has now that makes her act tougher.

Bearable. Bearable. The way you wrote it means something else entirely.

And if you think thats bad.. you wait till post-natal depression kicks in

There is something kinda messed up about drawing a smiley face at the end of a sentence about postpartum depression. It's perfectly appropriate to have a "thank god that won't happen to me" smugness when it comes to strange food cravings and morning sickness and the like, but not so much when it comes to crippling emotional pain.

Weiramon
11-11-2010, 03:13 AM
Burn my soul, the Lord Dragon can't trust all these forces at this gathering. Especially that young puppet of an Amyrlin, who probably spends her time with her nose buried in some book written by a Brown Sister.

Travel to Shayol Ghul with the cavalry, leave the rest behind, break the seals and mount a charge. Victory will be a grand sight to behold.

finn
11-11-2010, 03:46 AM
Burn my soul, the Lord Dragon can't trust all these forces at this gathering. Especially that young puppet of an Amyrlin, who probably spends her time with her nose buried in some book written by a Brown Sister.

Travel to Shayol Ghul with the cavalry, leave the rest behind, break the seals and mount a charge. Victory will be a grand sight to behold.

That's darkfriend talk right there, light blind you!

Jonai
11-11-2010, 03:52 AM
Guys, Guys, Guys (and gals), of course Elayne is going to oppose Rand. That is perfectly ok though, because about the time she issues an ultimatum, she will receive a letter. It will read something like this.

Dear Royal bloody pain in my backside,

Hate to interrupt the festivities, but

your kingdom's on fire.

luv Mat.

p.s. On fire means its burning.


:re Nynaeve: She's already got precedent for supporting Rand. Rand walking into her room in WH and announcing he needs her help to cleanse Saidin sounded pretty crazy at the time, and she was all, let's go baby (even with Lan going homocidal right next to her). So yes no matter how vocal she is at the meeting, she will be at SG.

jana
11-11-2010, 04:06 AM
Guys, Guys, Guys (and gals), of course Elayne is going to oppose Rand. That is perfectly ok though, because about the time she issues an ultimatum, she will receive a letter. It will read something like this.

Dear Royal bloody pain in my backside,

Hate to interrupt the festivities, but

your kingdom's on fire.

luv Mat.

p.s. On fire means its burning.


:re Nynaeve: She's already got precedent for supporting Rand. Rand walking into her room in WH and announcing he needs her help to cleanse Saidin sounded pretty crazy at the time, and she was all, let's go baby (even with Lan going homocidal right next to her). So yes no matter how vocal she is at the meeting, she will be at SG.

Yep. Elayne has been consistently anti-Rand except when it comes to the bedroom. (alright, I'm exaggerating a little bit. But she *is* the one who said something like "Why can't he just make it easy and kneel to Egwene?").

And there is no way in heck Nynaeve will support Egwene over Rand in this.

Nice letter :D

Mort
11-11-2010, 04:15 AM
Bearable. Bearable. The way you wrote it means something else entirely.


Oh shut up :) The other "e" ran away I tells you! (sic)



Dear Royal bloody pain in my backside,

Hate to interrupt the festivities, but

your kingdom's on fire.

luv Mat.

p.s. On fire means its burning.


Anyone up for some Mat inspired lolcats ? :) I think this could be huge, huge!

And also, won't Mat travel to the meeting area directly? Although then we won't have any PoV for the fighting in Caemlyn, unless we get to see more of Talmanes.

Jonai
11-11-2010, 04:53 AM
More Talmanes would be fine by me...well as long as he isn't cracking jokes like in tGS. I'm a little confused on the TOG and Andor timelines compared to the others though. How does it all line up?

jana
11-11-2010, 05:06 AM
I'm a little confused on the TOG and Andor timelines compared to the others though. How does it all line up?


They all match up now. Perrin/Grady dropped Mat off at the ToG the day before the Meeting.

We obviously can't be 100% sure on Caemlyn, but I think we can be 99% sure that Olver won Snakes and Foxes as soon as Mat exited the ToG.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2010, 06:31 AM
Burn my soul, the Lord Dragon can't trust all these forces at this gathering. Especially that young puppet of an Amyrlin, who probably spends her time with her nose buried in some book written by a Brown Sister.

Travel to Shayol Ghul with the cavalry, leave the rest behind, break the seals and mount a charge. Victory will be a grand sight to behold.Brilliant. Stuff the whole lot in a field in the middle of nowhere, then go off and solve the entire problem while they are waiting and waiting and waiting for the opportunity to tell you that you're a woolhead.

Having that whole meeting be just a red herring is a very good idea.

Jonai
11-11-2010, 06:48 AM
Well that's nice Jana. Caemlyn and Lan are both getting their arses kicked at approximately the same time. Along with the fall of Kandor and Arafel. Just need Tuon to launch that attack and the fireworks can begin. Can't forget the Black Tower either. lmao Light is fracked.

hawkeye31
11-11-2010, 06:08 PM
But the more I think about it, the more I think it's much more along the lines of "We the white tower have the Horn of Valere". We will not bring it to you, so you can forget about your crazy last battle ideas". I'm sure someone must have told Egwene where the horn is, but I doubt she knows the Mat has sounded it.

Actually, she does know that Mat sounded the Horn - at the end of TDR, when Lanfear has Berelain deliver her letter to Moiraine, Moiraine tells Mat in front of Egwene, Elayne & Nynaeve he's the Hornsounder and can't run anymore.

Anyway, like others have posted, I doubt if she has a plan yet on how to dissuade Rand, but I'm sure she'll come up with something.

Dewairah
11-11-2010, 06:22 PM
There is something kinda messed up about drawing a smiley face at the end of a sentence about postpartum depression. It's perfectly appropriate to have a "thank god that won't happen to me" smugness when it comes to strange food cravings and morning sickness and the like, but not so much when it comes to crippling emotional pain.

Unless of course it will happen to me ... again. :confused:

For that matter - if you think those who live with and care for people with mental illness dont also suffer greatly - then you must be somewhat oblivious to the human condition.

Yes, while the post-partum women are all teary and suicidal their husbands(bf's, gf's, partners etc) are singing and dancing and its all sugar and gumdrops. :D

shadar
11-12-2010, 02:36 AM
Does anyone suspect that the real ace in the hole was Rand's plan? Aka -- get Egwene to organise and mobilise as many troops as possible and then ta'veren them into following him?

And why exactly is Rand supposed to care that there is an army of Andorans or Tairens there whose leaders disagree -- why does the entire military strength of the world need to be there? (aside from deus-ex-machina to allow the trolloc invasions of course)

jana
11-12-2010, 02:39 AM
And why exactly is Rand supposed to care that there is an army of Andorans or Tairens there whose leaders disagree -- why does the entire military strength of the world need to be there? (aside from deus-ex-machina to allow the trolloc invasions of course)

Because he's human and he's supposed to care that everyone is against the idea. (I'm assuming that's Egwene's thought).

Jonai
11-12-2010, 03:10 AM
I don't think that meeting will allow or prevent the invasion. Not like any of those fartknockers where at the Blight border anywoo.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:44 AM
And why exactly is Rand supposed to care that there is an army of Andorans or Tairens there whose leaders disagree -- why does the entire military strength of the world need to be there?Could you please run this by me a bit more slowly?
It almost seems as though you expect Egwene to be sensible. Since that surely can't be what you believe, there must be a misunderstanding somewhere.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 09:12 AM
The funny thing is that Rand will simply explain to all of them WHY he's breaking the Seals and they'll all nod and say, "Wait a minute, that makes sense. Hey Amyrlin, why didnt you tell us the whole story?" It really makes her look stupid in the long-run as she simply told everyone, "OMG, Rand's breaking the seals!!!" with no explanation of him replacing them or anything.

Charlz Guybon
11-12-2010, 09:32 AM
The funny thing is that Rand will simply explain to all of them WHY he's breaking the Seals and they'll all nod and say, "Wait a minute, that makes sense. Hey Amyrlin, why didnt you tell us the whole story?" It really makes her look stupid in the long-run as she simply told everyone, "OMG, Rand's breaking the seals!!!" with no explanation of him replacing them or anything.

Unless I misremember it Rand didn't give her an explanation, did he?

Davian93
11-12-2010, 09:39 AM
Unless I misremember it Rand didn't give her an explanation, did he?

Of course not but they won't know that...they'll all assume that Egwene simply panicked and tried to stop Rand. Rand used her quite nicely in this effort to gather his forces for him.

Raralith
11-12-2010, 01:10 PM
I'm pretty sure Egwene has no ace in the hole, and is just playing into Rand's plan of cleansing the armies ready for the Last Battle. Sounds like he gets Egwene to flip out, bring all the armies into a very large field, use his power similair to Maladan that blinded the darkfriends (even through walls) and whoever is writhing in pain can pack their stuff up and leave/killed on sight.

WGW
11-12-2010, 04:35 PM
Egwene has become a master manipulator, and the Emond's Fielders have their own little collective. She's got something in mind where she and Rand will work together (Min's viewing that's they may be destined for each other, but not in the way they thought) to seal the bore. She knows the seals won't hold, so there's no point in trying. After their confrontation, she knows Rand is going to have to do it himself and that he's beyond their control, so the best she can do is help the man she almost married (the viewing the Amyrlin would kneel before Rand). Everything she did in ToM was to get the Tower away from doing anything that could stop either of them.

Matoyak
11-12-2010, 08:50 PM
(aside from deus-ex-machina to allow the trolloc invasions of course)I do believe that would qualify for Diabolus Ex Machina (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DiabolusExMachina) rather than Deus Ex Machina. :)

@WGW: Could you explain how her thoughts lead to your conclusion? (Not being sarcastic, I'm genuinely curious). How did her thoughts give you that impression? o_O

Ishara
11-12-2010, 10:52 PM
letter. It will read something like this.

Dear Royal bloody pain in my backside,

Hate to interrupt the festivities, but

your kingdom's on fire.

luv Mat.

p.s. On fire means its burning.



Excellent letter. :D

And while Rand may not have explained his rationale to Egwene, instead of automatically and immediately turning her mind to opposing him, I would have loved for her to have some of her cronies at least look into it first, you know? Gah. Hard not to see her as being pigheaded for the sake of it this way...

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 12:40 AM
Of course not but they won't know that...they'll all assume that Egwene simply panicked and tried to stop Rand. Rand used her quite nicely in this effort to gather his forces for him.

Exactly, because Rand needed that whole month in order to . . . um . . . what did he need that month for?

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 06:09 AM
Exactly, because Rand needed that whole month in order to . . . um . . . what did he need that month for?Maybe he's trying to come up with a plan for what to do after he's broken the Seals. Of course, he could leave this until it becomes actually relevant, but some preparation may now and then be useful.

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 12:05 PM
Maybe he's trying to come up with a plan for what to do after he's broken the Seals. Of course, he could leave this until it becomes actually relevant, but some preparation may now and then be useful.

Yeah, that's a lot more pressing than the Black Tower. I also doubt that he spent the time planning for the future; there was no indicator of this the last couple of times we saw him on screen.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:33 PM
Yeah, that's a lot more pressing than the Black Tower. I also doubt that he spent the time planning for the future; there was no indicator of this the last couple of times we saw him on screen.

I'd put RESEALING the Bore over the Black Tower on the "To Do" list personally.

Jonai
11-13-2010, 06:39 PM
I'd put RESEALING the Bore over the Black Tower on the "To Do" list personally.

^ Though truthfully we need to be about healing that blasted thing. I think in Rand's eyes, anything is worth the price if the Bore is resealed. Way back when before saidin got cleansed, we had the additional worry of all the Asha'man going insane and starting a new breaking, no matter if they were Taimed or not. That was a risk Rand was willing to take, and he hadn't reached the nadir of later books yet. I think even Jesus-Rand puts the seals and the Bore on a whole different level of importance than anything else.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 06:39 PM
Wouldn't it be better not to have an unknown amount of 13x13d Ashaman to go against in the attempt at resealing the bore?

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:43 PM
Wouldn't it be better not to have an unknown amount of 13x13d Ashaman to go against in the attempt at resealing the bore?

Better yes, but perhaps not required. As Rand said, he doesnt have the week it would take to travel to the Black Tower and back. Not to mention, a massive channeler battle with Taim (something he probbaly realizes is the end result of it) is something he probably doesnt want to do either.

Jonai
11-13-2010, 06:45 PM
Hopefully Logain hasn't been turned yet. :P

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:46 PM
Hopefully Logain hasn't been turned yet. :P

Doubtful...Min's viewing of glory to come seems to contradict a turning by Logain.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 06:47 PM
Is there anything that indicates whether Logain or Taim is stronger in OP? It would be nice if Rand could just send Logain to deal with Taim.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:49 PM
Is there anything that indicates whether Logain or Taim is stronger in OP? It would be nice if Rand could just send Logain to deal with Taim.

Both are a small step below Rand and about the same strength from all reports.

Probably equivalent in strength to Demandred or Sammael (both a step below Rand/LTT & Ishy in the AoL per the BWB)

Jonai
11-13-2010, 07:36 PM
Logain's comments after the manor fight in KoD seem to indicate that Rand is noticeably stronger. In LoC, Taim and Rand are about the same strength. Rand's gotten stronger since then though. I think the Choedan Kal probably allowed him to reach his potential. Not because he "absorbed" them or anything, but because of unintentional forcing on his and Nynaeve's parts. Taim may be stronger than Logain, but I doubt it's enough to matter. Knowledge and dexterity matter a lot more. Still, that raises the question: does Taim have an angreal? We never did find the fat man did we?

Davian93
11-13-2010, 07:43 PM
Logain's comments after the manor fight in KoD seem to indicate that Rand is noticeably stronger. In LoC, Taim and Rand are about the same strength. Rand's gotten stronger since then though. I think the Choedan Kal probably allowed him to reach his potential. Not because he "absorbed" them or anything, but because of unintentional forcing on his and Nynaeve's parts. Taim may be stronger than Logain, but I doubt it's enough to matter. Knowledge and dexterity matter a lot more. Still, that raises the question: does Taim have an angreal? We never did find the fat man did we?

No, its never appeared since LoC...it'd be interesting if Taim had it.

etranger
11-13-2010, 07:58 PM
Taim may be stronger than Logain, but I doubt it's enough to matter. Knowledge and dexterity matter a lot more. Still, that raises the question: does Taim have an angreal? We never did find the fat man did we?

Even when Taim has the angreal he may still be at a strength disadvantage if Logain can link to a few of the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 05:32 AM
Even when Taim has the angreal he may still be at a strength disadvantage if Logain can link to a few of the Aes Sedai at the Black Tower.Well, as they say in all those cooking programs: "here is one that he has prepared earlier". Logain could just use his own harem*.

* And his reserve-harem, too, even. He does have two AS.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 07:06 AM
“Mazrim Taim says the Shadowspawn are under control by now, your Majesty,” Reene said. “He–”

As before, Taim strode into the room as though he owned the Palace, but where months ago the shadows following in his wake had seemed a suggestion of violence surrounding him, they were now clearly patches of actual darkness. In a golden stand-lamp the flame guttered at his approach and abruptly snuffed out as he passed. Even in the gathering darkness Elayne could see black spots swimming across his dark eyes. She hoped whatever it was wasn’t catching; her babes would be born safely, but so many crippling childhood diseases could last a lifetime. The First Maid glared at Taim's back before hastily withdrawing.

Another black-coated man heeled him, a short if comfortingly fat fellow whose green eyes seemed yawning caverns into death and despair, like Aviendha’s on the days when Elayne had had her sister dosed with forkroot and manhandled into the baths. Well, bloody sheepswallop, at times like this that was understandable. She herself had been woken after only three hours of sleep with the news that Caemlyn was burning. Another pair of Taim’s men peeled off to guard the doors, these not wearing not black coats but hooded black cloaks, which very properly did not sway as they came to a ramrod-straight halt.

Instinctively, Elayne embraced saidar and reached out to link. Renaile slipped into the circle easily; astoundingly, so did Logain. A quick glance at the peculiar Asha’man who had followed her home lessened her surprise. His face gray, Logain was gripping the sword belted at his waist so hard that Elayne could feel the pain in his knuckles through the link. And then Toveine entered the link, and Gabrelle! Feeling a man in her circle was one thing, but Lini had always told her ‘two trapped women are like cats in an attic,’ and Elayne was very much wondering if this was an attic she belonged in. She eyed the pair anxiously–well, in truth, she tried to eye them haughtily, with her nose upraised like a defiant lion, but they could sense her anxiety through the link–before turning her attention back to the so-called M’Hael.

The next stand-lamp went out in an explosion of sparks and sagged, the metal melting as it collapsed to the floor. Yes, however uncouth, the man did possess a certain flair. And a dark handsomeness that did not detract from the sense of danger he exuded–almost as much as Birgitte did, fuming in her mind from Merrilor. Well. Lady Trahelion would hear the rough side of her tongue by tonight! In disgust–at Birgitte, at the foolish Aes Sedai, at Rand bloody al'Thor for planting these kicking babes in her–Elayne abandoned her instincts and the circle together and took a reappraising breath.

“I knew you could be counted on, Master Taim,” she said warmly as he came to a stop two paces away. Light, but the man was tall. Even with her nose decently upraised it seemed she had to look through her lashes just to meet his eyes. “Would you like to be my Warder?”