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Strongman
11-10-2010, 03:23 PM
It seems to me that as of TOM, Perrin is the utmost expert in the dream world. You have to admit that stopping balefire was pretty badass. I credit him for Eg's escape from the leash also.

Jokeslayer
11-10-2010, 03:27 PM
I wonder how Perrin would compare to Bair or Lanfear.

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 03:31 PM
Yeah, I tend to think that the entire purpose of that battle taking place in Tar Valon was to give Perrin a staging ground to be badass. I don't doubt he could have handled Moggy and Lanfear there either.

Strongman
11-10-2010, 03:36 PM
Yeah, I tend to think that the entire purpose of that battle taking place in Tar Valon was to give Perrin a staging ground to be badass. I don't doubt he could have handled Moggy and Lanfear there either.

Probably would have been different if he knew who he was messin with...lol

WinespringBrother
11-10-2010, 03:43 PM
As far as I can tell, Perrin got about a week and a half of intensive training from Hopper. However, he was only able to fight Slayer to a standstill. I'm not so sure he could take Lanfear or Moggy yet. Or the Wise Ones either. Not taking anything away from his fight scene though, which was made of awesome :D

Callahan
11-10-2010, 03:49 PM
Yeah, I tend to think that the entire purpose of that battle taking place in Tar Valon was to give Perrin a staging ground to be badass. I don't doubt he could have handled Moggy and Lanfear there either.

Lanfear is believed to be the most skilled in TAR of all the Forsaken.While I believe he could handle Moggy, we havent seen Lanfear in TAR in circumstances that would allow much of a comparison.

Belazamon
11-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Lanfear is believed to be the most skilled in TAR of all the Forsaken.While I believe he could handle Moggy, we havent seen Lanfear in TAR in circumstances that would allow much of a comparison.
More accurately, Lanfear believes herself to be the most skilled in TAR.

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 04:06 PM
More accurately, Lanfear believes herself to be the most skilled in TAR.

Right - I'm pretty sure that most of what we've heard of and seen (possibly from a Birgitte explanation?) implies that Moggy is far more talented than Lanfear in T'a'R. Lanfear just thinks she's hot shit. :)

And yeah, Perrin may have gotten his ass toasted by the Forsaken, but somehow I doubt it. He was taken to a standstill by Slayer because Slayer is forced (by method of not having access to the One Power) to use only T'a'R in his interactions - those are his powers. I believe Moggy and Lanfear would have both been using "weaves," just like Mesaana and Egwene. In fact, when Moggy fights Nynaeve, she uses a lot of Saidar, instead of just using the powers of the DreamWorld.

WinespringBrother
11-10-2010, 04:34 PM
Right - I'm pretty sure that most of what we've heard of and seen (possibly from a Birgitte explanation?) implies that Moggy is far more talented than Lanfear in T'a'R. Lanfear just thinks she's hot shit. :)

And yeah, Perrin may have gotten his ass toasted by the Forsaken, but somehow I doubt it. He was taken to a standstill by Slayer because Slayer is forced (by method of not having access to the One Power) to use only T'a'R in his interactions - those are his powers. I believe Moggy and Lanfear would have both been using "weaves," just like Mesaana and Egwene. In fact, when Moggy fights Nynaeve, she uses a lot of Saidar, instead of just using the powers of the DreamWorld.

Moggy turned Birgitte into a child, then banished her from TAR. I'm pretty sure the first was done without Saidar, and likely the second as well. Though even if they were done with the One Power, I doubt that Perrin could have resisted them any better than a Hero of the Horn who lived in TAR.

Strongman
11-10-2010, 04:38 PM
I think what Perrin showed us was that thought is more powerful than the OP. I would think if you could stop balefire, the rest is just easy.

Mat is Better
11-10-2010, 04:41 PM
Moggy turned Birgitte into a child, then banished her from TAR. I'm pretty sure the first was done without Saidar, and likely the second as well. Though even if they were done with the One Power, I doubt that Perrin could have resisted them any better than a Hero of the Horn who lived in TAR.

I don't think that people that use the One Power are totally in their element in TAR. Moggy might have done some impressive stuff with Birgitte but she was also captured the same way Egwene refused to be captured in ToM. I think channelers by nature are are more likely to have the first instinct of channeling unless they have an inborn talent such as that manifested by Egwene and the Wise Ones.

I don't remember, but I don't believe we have any evidence that Birgitte is a master of TAR. Sure she lived there being dead, but that doesn't mean she's a master. Her first instinct would probably be to fight (physically) every time because that's what she's talented at. It's like the wolves, they live in the wolf dream and yet Slayer can trash them all because he isn't relying on skills alone that he would use in the real world (with most of the wolves all they seem to really do is appear out of thin air and bite people, Hopper being a notable exception).

morat'corlm
11-10-2010, 04:42 PM
Moggy turned Birgitte into a child, then banished her from TAR. I'm pretty sure the first was done without Saidar, and likely the second as well. Though even if they were done with the One Power, I doubt that Perrin could have resisted them any better than a Hero of the Horn who lived in TAR....and then she let herself believe that an imaginary a'dam had control over her imaginary One Power in T'A'R. Which, no matter how egotistical Ishy and Lanfear are (and I'm pretty sure Ishy used the banishment trick in TGH), cannot be said about either of them yet.

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 04:52 PM
Moggy turned Birgitte into a child, then banished her from TAR. I'm pretty sure the first was done without Saidar, and likely the second as well.

Hmmm, according to this quote from The Fires of Heaven, it was almost assuredly a combination of T'a'R-weaving and the One Power.


Moghedien screamed as a silver arrow suddenly stuck its head out from below her right breast.
Nynaeve fell to the ground like a dropped sack. The fall knocked every speck of breath from her lungs as surely as a hammer in the belly. Straining to breathe, she struggled to make racked muscles move, to fight through pain to saidar.
Staggering on her feet, Birgitte fumbled another arrow from her quiver. “Go, Nynaeve!” It was a mumbling shout. “Get away!” Birgitte’s head wavered, and the silver bow wobbled as she raised it.
The glow around Moghedien increased until it seemed as if the blinding sun surrounded her.
The night folded in over Birgitte like an ocean wave, enveloping her in blackness. When it passed, the bow dropped atop empty clothes as they collapsed. The clothes faded like fog burning off, and only the bow and arrows remained, shining in the moonlight.

Though even if they were done with the One Power, I doubt that Perrin could have resisted them any better than a Hero of the Horn who lived in TAR.

Except that we've never been given any indication that Birgitte has received the training of, or has ever cared to attempt, the kinds of actions Perrin and Slayer do during ToM. For all we know, Perrin is the most skilled Dreamer living today.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2010, 05:16 PM
As far as I can tell, Perrin got about a week and a half of intensive training from Hopper. However, he was only able to fight Slayer to a standstill. I'm not so sure he could take Lanfear or Moggy yet. Or the Wise Ones either. Not taking anything away from his fight scene though, which was made of awesome :D

I'm with you, WSB. We've seen almost no fight scenes in Tel'aran'rhiod that involved skilled Dreamers/Dreamwalkers. We hear a lot about the Wise One's abilities, but even in this book we got to see them only peripherally. I think it is very hasty to assume that Perrin is now the greatest living Dreamer. He's just more quickly accepted that identity and thought are the primary ways to manipulate the environment. Don't forget that, once Perrin reminded Egwene of that reality, she eclipsed Mesaana and did something Wise Ones weren't sure they could do.

morat'corlm
11-10-2010, 05:33 PM
Hmmm, according to this quote from The Fires of Heaven, it was almost assuredly a combination of T'a'R-weaving and the One Power.But as Perrin says: it's just a weave.

Are we even certain that this "One Power" used in T'A'R' is anything more than a property they imagine themselves to possess? We DO know that channelers cannot channel anything but Spirit in their sleep.

Obviously when Ishamael did the black-wave trick in TGH it wasn't obvious how he did it since Perrin couldn't sense saidin, but unless there's a quotation to prove me wrong I haven't seen I'm going to believe that the One Power in T'A'R is wholly imaginary and hence a more or less arbitrary way of accomplishing things.

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 05:38 PM
Right - I'm pretty sure that most of what we've heard of and seen (possibly from a Birgitte explanation?) implies that Moggy is far more talented than Lanfear in T'a'R. Lanfear just thinks she's hot shit. :)

I think the issue is being confused. The way I understand it, or rather, the way I assume things are, is that Moghedien is, indeed, the most talented of the Dreamers. That said, if she got into a confrontation with Lanfear, much like Mesaana against Egwene, Lanfear would absolutely toast her brain. At that point it becomes a battle of wills and I think Lanfear's massively stronger than Moghedien's.

I don't know if Perrin is strong enough to stand against Lanfear's will but, either way, I think that she would have difficulty with him.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:42 PM
Noone is more hardheaded or stubborn than a Two Rivers person.

So the most powerful in TAR would be:
Rand
Perrin
Egwene

Bonus points for how sure you are of yourself so the power would go:
New Perrin
Rand
Egwene
Old Perrin

alleluia_cone
11-10-2010, 05:45 PM
Noone is more hardheaded or stubborn than a Two Rivers person.

So the most powerful in TAR would be:
Rand
Perrin
Egwene


I don't know, can anyone possibly be more confident than Lanfear or more sure of herself? Perhaps things have changed in her new circumstances though. But if she did somehow manage to penetrate Rand's dreams, despite the warding, I think she'd have to shoot up in the Dreamer rankings.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 05:48 PM
I don't know, can anyone possibly be more confident than Lanfear or more sure of herself? Perhaps things have changed in her new circumstances though. But if she did somehow manage to penetrate Rand's dreams, despite the warding, I think she'd have to shoot up in the Dreamer rankings.

Uh does she seem very confident or have any reason to be confident lately? Old Lanfear? Yes. Cyndy? Oh no. She's all but broken IMO.

I could obviously be wrong, but I see nothing to point in that direction. The only way Rand's dreams have been penetrated are when Rand shared Moridin's. I would suspect that this is another case of that.

ArtK
11-10-2010, 06:21 PM
Uh does she seem very confident or have any reason to be confident lately? Old Lanfear? Yes. Cyndy? Oh no. She's all but broken IMO.

I could obviously be wrong, but I see nothing to point in that direction. The only way Rand's dreams have been penetrated are when Rand shared Moridin's. I would suspect that this is another case of that.

Don't forget that when Graendal began to discuss further plans to make Rand unhappy, she was told somebody else now had that opportunity.

IMO Cyndane got into Rand's dream via Moridin's link, and is trying to make him unhappy, using his guilt over Mierin. (I haven't read all the threads here, so this may already have been mentioned.) Her "all but broken" appearance may thus be an act.

tiredofbuttons
11-10-2010, 06:25 PM
Don't forget that when Graendal began to discuss further plans to make Rand unhappy, she was told somebody else now had that opportunity.

IMO Cyndane got into Rand's dream via Moridin's link, and is trying to make him unhappy, using his guilt over Mierin. (I haven't read all the threads here, so this may already have been mentioned.) Her "all but broken" appearance may thus be an act.

All good points.

WinespringBrother
11-10-2010, 06:49 PM
But as Perrin says: it's just a weave.

Are we even certain that this "One Power" used in T'A'R' is anything more than a property they imagine themselves to possess? We DO know that channelers cannot channel anything but Spirit in their sleep.

Obviously when Ishamael did the black-wave trick in TGH it wasn't obvious how he did it since Perrin couldn't sense saidin, but unless there's a quotation to prove me wrong I haven't seen I'm going to believe that the One Power in T'A'R is wholly imaginary and hence a more or less arbitrary way of accomplishing things.

Perrin was able to stop a weave that he could see. He might have a problem exerting his willpower over weaves he can't see.

We know that channeling works in TAR since Rand's balefire beam of Rahvin had the same effects as a waking world balefire beam. It wasn't a hallucination of Rand or Rahvin that caused him to cease existing for a period of time before he was blasted.

morat'corlm
11-10-2010, 06:54 PM
We know that channeling works in TAR since Rand's balefire beam of Rahvin had the same effects as a waking world balefire beam. It wasn't a hallucination of Rand or Rahvin that caused him to cease existing for a period of time before he was blasted.Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh, unlike the Dreamwalkers or Perrin. And even so, I'm not convinced that the balefire would have worked if Rahvin had been able simply to will the weave not to be. It's not a hallucination, but essentially a hallucination actualized and given the properties that are conceived of it and that it can be held to by a strong enough will. Like Slayer's knife.

David Selig
11-10-2010, 07:01 PM
I'd say Lanfear before she changed bodies must've been the best. Iron will, supreme confidence in her abilities and vast experience.

If normal logic applied in fantasy, I'd say Bair and Amys should be better Perrin due to their huge advantage in experience. But since it's fantasy, it's probably Perrin, the young hero with little experience who is the best now. Or Egwene, she certainly has an awful lot of confidence and arrogance, which seems to help in the Dream World.

Callahan
11-10-2010, 07:13 PM
But as Perrin says: it's just a weave.

Are we even certain that this "One Power" used in T'A'R' is anything more than a property they imagine themselves to possess? We DO know that channelers cannot channel anything but Spirit in their sleep.

Obviously when Ishamael did the black-wave trick in TGH it wasn't obvious how he did it since Perrin couldn't sense saidin, but unless there's a quotation to prove me wrong I haven't seen I'm going to believe that the One Power in T'A'R is wholly imaginary and hence a more or less arbitrary way of accomplishing things.

I imagine it's a different situation if a channeler is in TAR in the flesh.

Crispin's Crispian
11-10-2010, 07:29 PM
I imagine it's a different situation if a channeler is in TAR in the flesh.

I think it is different, but not so different that it would be impossible for a Dreamer to unravel a weave from a channeler in the flesh. The dreamspike was real--not a TAR-version of itself. Slayer said neither he nor Perrin were strong enough to destroy it by force of will, implying that a stronger person could. Perrin had to rely on the strength of the nightmare to do it.

People who enter in the flesh and things that are brought in from the outside are still susceptible to reality-bending.

Ieyasu
11-10-2010, 11:05 PM
Perrin was able to stop a weave that he could see. He might have a problem exerting his willpower over weaves he can't see.



She bound him in air first, he could not see it, but it presented no difficulties for him to dispel it...

WinespringBrother
11-10-2010, 11:34 PM
She bound him in air first, he could not see it, but it presented no difficulties for him to dispel it...

What about a compulsion weave? Or one that makes Perrin into a wolf? Or a toad?

Ieyasu
11-11-2010, 12:16 AM
What about a compulsion weave? Or one that makes Perrin into a wolf? Or a toad?

"It's just a weave"...


heheh <3

smileyman
11-11-2010, 01:31 AM
I get the impression that most everybody who visits T'A'R accepts that there are certain rules and that by understanding and manipulating those rules you can win.

Perrin knows that there are no rules whatsoever. I'm not sure that Lanfear realizes this. Ishmael might. Egwene might be getting to that point. I've also got the impression that the WOs think there are rules in T'A'R as well, which would inhibit them when battling against someone like Perrin.

Terez
11-11-2010, 01:34 AM
But as Perrin says: it's just a weave.

Are we even certain that this "One Power" used in T'A'R' is anything more than a property they imagine themselves to possess? We DO know that channelers cannot channel anything but Spirit in their sleep.

I thought I remembered a debate we had back in the day about whether or not Perrin could channel in the Dream if he wanted to. Turns out it wasn't much of a debate (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/199489#reply-199489). I remember liking the idea at first, and then figuring that it probably wouldn't work cause Perrin doesn't channel in the real world.

morat'corlm
11-11-2010, 02:00 AM
I thought I remembered a debate we had back in the day about whether or not Perrin could channel in the Dream if he wanted to. Turns out it wasn't much of a debate (http://theoryland.yuku.com/reply/199489#reply-199489). I remember liking the idea at first, and then figuring that it probably wouldn't work cause Perrin doesn't channel in the real world.Yeah, I agree that he'd have no idea where to start with imagining himself as a channeler–but it would be just as hard for people used to channeling to imagine themselves without the ability. I'd say that thought experiment reinforces the idea that the One Power as such does not exist in Tel'aran'rhiod.

finn
11-11-2010, 02:11 AM
I enjoyed and had long awaited the Perrin - Egwene confrontation. Egwene had let Alviarin slip away during her meeting with Elayne and Nynaeve because of her reliance on the One Power. She kept making the same mistakes. Her emotional reaction to Balefire and the adam would only make them more real. Perrin taught her a very important lesson there.

Her battle with Mesaana was also interesting. She didn't think of herself as the 20 year old girl but as the Amyrlin, gaining her strength from the White Tower itself which was her seat of power. Perrin in contrast knows all of TAR as the "wolf dream" and him its master.

GonzoTheGreat
11-11-2010, 05:53 AM
I am not sure Perrin would have been able to stop a weave from someone who was there in the flesh.

AbbeyRoad
11-11-2010, 07:33 AM
I agree that the One Power is more or less useless in the dream. As Egwene realized in the TarTar battle, weaves were simply a slower way of exerting your will. I think a good comparison is the motions the Aes Sedai use to throw fireballs, when they are unnecessary and it would be much easier to simply create them with the One Power. Similarly, anything you could do with the One Power you could do by sheer strength of will... and much faster. Channelers simply imagine that they are using the One Power because that is what they know. I have no doubt Perrin could duplicate the effect of any weave just by exerting his will, and he could probably do it faster than most/all channelers.

At this point, I think Perrin would challenge any of the Forsaken or Wise Ones. Another week or two in the Wolf Dream and he will probably be unsurpassed. Slayer fought him to a draw, but only because he was vastly more experienced, and I think Slayer is supremely underestimated by the Forsaken in T'A'R. I also don't know whether anyone in the series could manipulate nightmares like Perrin can.

Jonai
11-11-2010, 07:44 AM
Moggy>Lanfear in TAR. (AND MOGGY SHALL RISE AGAIN! BUWHAHA)

I guess the logical way to solve this flesh debate is to have super saiyan Rand unleash all the saidin he can pull through Callandor at Perrin in the flesh in TAR and see what happens.

Landro
11-11-2010, 08:30 AM
I guess the logical way to solve this flesh debate is to have super saiyan Rand unleash all the saidin he can pull through Callandor at Perrin in the flesh in TAR and see what happens.

"It's just a weave."

WinespringBrother
11-11-2010, 09:03 AM
Rand and Rahvin were there in the flesh, unlike the Dreamwalkers or Perrin. And even so, I'm not convinced that the balefire would have worked if Rahvin had been able simply to will the weave not to be. It's not a hallucination, but essentially a hallucination actualized and given the properties that are conceived of it and that it can be held to by a strong enough will. Like Slayer's knife.

I think the One Power does work even when you are sleeping. While at DragonCon '05, I specifically asked about Nynaeve's channeling fire at Rahvin, and RJ said that she can channel any ability, not just spirit, while in the Dream and asleep. Unless he was trying to be misleading, which I doubt.

Also, Egwene shielded Amico in TAR, while both were asleep. That carried over to the waking world. I'm not sure how Egwene could replicate a spirit weave that affects the ability to touch the True Source with a non-weave. Especially at that point in her evolution as a Dreamer, having yet to be trained by the Wise Ones.

And it seemed clear that the Battle in the White Tower in TofM involved a lot of channeling.

I also vaguely recall Rand channeling balefire while asleep, in TAR, on his trip to Tear. It was either at Perrin, or Egwene, or darkhounds, but I can't find the quote for it, so I'm not entirely sure about this.

Neilbert
11-11-2010, 12:50 PM
Did anyone else pick up on Slayer telling Perrin that it was possible to heal yourself in the Dream?

I don't think he was being dishonest, seeing as he wasn't bleeding while kneeling to Graendal, and he survived Perrin's arrow just fine. I wonder how it's done.

Enheduanna
11-20-2010, 11:46 PM
Did anyone else pick up on Slayer telling Perrin that it was possible to heal yourself in the Dream?

I don't think he was being dishonest, seeing as he wasn't bleeding while kneeling to Graendal, and he survived Perrin's arrow just fine. I wonder how it's done.

I'm pretty sure Luc was badly injured by Perrin in their fight in the Two Rivers; he raced out of the inn hunched over and didn't come back for quite a while. Also Moghedien needed Healing after Birgitte put an arrow through her.

morat'corlm
11-20-2010, 11:58 PM
I agree that he let something slip, but I think the one kneeling to Graendal was the Dreadlord Asha'man–also on loan from Moridin–who she was using to move the Trollocs.

Kimon
11-21-2010, 12:40 AM
I agree that he let something slip, but I think the one kneeling to Graendal was the Dreadlord Asha'man–also on loan from Moridin–who she was using to move the Trollocs.

pg. 600

The servant- the one Moridin had loaned her- was on one knee before her. His eyes were tempestuous, and only half-lowered. This one was under control, but barely. He knew he was unique.

He also seemed to know that his failure would fall upon her shoulders.


Her POV continues, but those are the two key elements that make it certain that this is Slayer. He is unique, a random DF asha'man is not. Moreover, "his failure" could hardly refer to a random DF asha'man, whereas Slayer had just failed massively, failing not only to kill Perrin, but had also allowed the dreamspike to be destroyed, and had contributed in getting Mesaana killed, by allowing her to be trapped by the dreamspike.

morat'corlm
11-21-2010, 01:05 AM
Unique is by far the more convincing of the two, and I read it as in contrast to Graendal's other servants, who were under heavy Compulsion.

The second is unsurprising for a channeler on loan to perform specific tasks. He isn't there to make sure that the Trolloc army succeeds, despite being the ranking Darkfriend at the scene, just to provide transportation. I can see how you think the "failure" refers to a past event rather than a future one, but that isn't how I read it.

What makes it less likely to be Isam is that he was sent off to trigger the trap. Using him as a messenger to another channeler is just odd.

Kimon
11-21-2010, 02:03 AM
Unique is by far the more convincing of the two, and I read it as in contrast to Graendal's other servants, who were under heavy Compulsion.

The second is unsurprising for a channeler on loan to perform specific tasks. He isn't there to make sure that the Trolloc army succeeds, despite being the ranking Darkfriend at the scene, just to provide transportation. I can see how you think the "failure" refers to a past event rather than a future one, but that isn't how I read it.

What makes it less likely to be Isam is that he was sent off to trigger the trap. Using him as a messenger to another channeler is just odd.

Slayer still seems the most likely possibility, though after taking another look I will concede that there is one other man who could both have been loaned out by Moridin, and who could undeniably be described as "unique", albeit not in the way that you want to twist it- unique must mean truly unique. This is Moridin's servant, not hers, so the lack of compulsion hardly seems a factor in that.

Taim.

If Taim, it might be a hint to two vexing questions. That if Taim, he is not ranked amongst the Chosen, but that he is still sure enough of himself to present a "rebellious spark", something which could not be said of many (heck any but perhaps Slayer or Taim) DFs in dealings with the Chosen. It would also definitively answer who Taim is working for- Moridin.

Of course, if Taim, then he dispatched another asha'man to handle transporting the Trollocs via portal stone, as the channeler that Grady sensed was not strong. Of course Grady could have been wrong, and only sensed the amount used, not actual ability. Certainly from what we had known previously, use of a portal stone was supposed to have required significant strength. Of course that was for what Rand did with a massive group of Aiel, this channeler was supposedly bringing Trollocs in fists, which likely would have required less strength.

So I'll admit that there is more than just the possibility of Slayer here for the servant. The mention of uniqueness could refer to either, as could the impudence to Graendal. Either fitting with anyone else simply doesn't make sense. That leaves the issue of the mention "that his failure would fall upon her shoulders". I took that to refer to what had just happened. If so, then it is Slayer. But I suppose it could also refer to the potential failure of this new gambit, in which case Taim would also fit.

Neilbert
11-21-2010, 02:22 AM
Slayer is unique. Slayer is a servant that Morridin loaned to Graendal, the only one that we know of.

Taim is, as far as we know, none of those things. That is some pretty darn confusing writing for it to be someone other than slayer.

Yeah technically it could be Taim, sorta, but things like this are why Branden wrote the dusty wheel bit.

What makes it less likely to be Isam is that he was sent off to trigger the trap. Using him as a messenger to another channeler is just odd.

It does seem rather odd, but less so when you consider that the alternative would be Graendal traveling there herself, or having an male dreadlord chilling in her business.