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View Full Version : Aviendha, the Aiel Remnant, and the Future of Randland


TankSpill
11-10-2010, 03:27 PM
Warning - this is LONG. And yeah, I know this is already discussed in other threads, but I'm pursuing it in a slightly different route than others. Hope that's okay! Ahem...

Chapters 48 and 49 have caused a lot of discussion, but in my opinion, not enough. Brandon called these scenes some of the saddest he had written – enough so that it brought tears to his eyes. I can certainly understand this. The future looks very dire for these noble Aiel, not to mention the entirety of Randland. The question that seems most obvious is, “Are the futures than Aviendha sees definitely going to happen, probably going to happen, or just possibly going to happen?” I have some thoughts on it. Let's look at what we know.

According to Aviendha's trip through the FutureSpires ™, at some point, Rand is going to ask the lands to accept something known as the Dragon's Peace. This looks to be a demand for peace with the Seanchan, though we aren't given a lot of specifics. The Aiel apparently do not accept this peace. Rand and Aviendha's (four!) children are amongst the Aiel who, years later, convince the Aiel chiefs to once again pick up their spears and go to war against the Seanchan. As we saw from the visions, this leads to disaster after disaster, eventually resulting in all but the demise of the entire Aiel nation. However, this is where the crux of my theory lies (which I'll get to in a moment).

Now, we know from the various Wise Ones and prophecies we have seen that the Car'a'carn will save a remnant of the Aiel:


"He shall spill out the blood of those who call themselves Aiel as water on sand, and he shall break them as dried twigs, yet the remnant of a remnant shall he save, and they shall live."

Note that the prophecy specifically says “shall he save, and they shall live.” To me, this implies, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that though the remnant may be small, such a remnant will necessarily survive. To me, the girl Malidra, in the first vision Aviendha has of the future, could barely be called surviving, and certainly few people could say the Aiel have survived at that point. So somehow, Rand still has something to do which will save that “remnant of a remnant.” But what is it?

Before we get to that, let's look at the visions themselves, which Aviendha saw. Here is a quote I found pertinent:


Ronam turned and looked out the open tent flaps, toward the green
grass beyond. "My father called Rand al'Thor a clever man and great
leader, but one who did not know what to do with the Aiel. I remember
him saying that when the Car'a'carn was among us, he did not feel like one
of us. As if we made him uncomfortable." Ronam shook his head. "Everyone
else was planned for, but the Aiel were left adrift."

This quote shows that, from the POV's of those within the vision, that Rand al'Thor, the Dragon Reborn, the Car'a'carn, had made decisions, taken actions, or lacked forethought which had a hand in leading to the future Aviendha saw. The quote, which was about the Aiel being left adrift, I believe stemmed from Aviendha's conversations with Nakomi earlier:


The Aiel would therefore regain their honor. Once you paid toh, you forgot it. To remember a fault that had been repaid was arrogant. They would be finished. They could return and no longer feel shame for what had happened in the past. Aviendha nodded to herself.

"And so," Nakomi said, handing over a cup of tea, "the Three-fold Land was our punishment. We came here to grow so that we could meet our toh!'

"Yes," Aviendha said. It felt clear to her.

"So, once we have fought for the Car'a'carn, we will have met that toh. And therefore will have no reason to be punished further. If that is the case, why would we return to this land? Would that not be like seeking more punishment, once toh is met?"

Aviendha froze. But no, that was silly. She did not want to argue with Nakomi on the point, but the Aiel belonged in the Three-fold Land.

"People of the Dragon," Nakomi said, sipping her tea. "That is what we are. Serving the Dragon was the point behind everything we did. Our customs, our raids on each other, our harsh training . . . our very way of life!”

"Yes," Aviendha said.

"And so," Nakomi said softly, "once Sightblinder is defeated, what is left for us? Perhaps this is why so many refused to follow the Car'a'carn. Because they worried at what it meant. Why continue the old ways? How do we find honor in raiding, in killing one another, if we are no longer preparing for such an important task? Why grow harder? For the sake of being hard itself?"

" I . . ."

"I'm sorry," Nakomi said. "I've let myself ramble again. I am prone to it, I fear. Here, let us eat."

To me, I find it strangely coincidental (and not the least bit suspicious) that the last two viewings Aviendha has in the Ter'angreal (which are the two which will happen soonest in the future) seem to echo a lot of the concerns which Nakomi brought up in their conversation just a few days prior. Aviendha is clearly troubled by the things Nakomi says, so couldn't it be said that they are filling her mind with doubts?

I believe that, somehow, her experiences and conversation with Nakomi led her to have preconceived notions about what would happen in the future, and thus tainted those visions. We have not seen anything like this specifically before, except when Egwene refuses to believe that Dreams about Seanchan are real, just because she believes them to be nightmares of her time in captivity. Since we know so little about this Ter'angreal, and since in these new visions, we are seeing the future, I believe it could be possible that Aviendha's notions about the uncertain future of the Aiel are coloring what she sees. After all, we know from The Gathering Storm that visions of the future after the Last Battle cannot be held as strictly reliable:


"That boy will laugh again," Cadsuane said quietly, but intensely. "I didn't live this long to fail now."

"What does it matter?" Corele said.
Nynaeve turned in shock.

"Well?" Corele set down her mending. "What does it matter? We're obviously going to succeed."

"Light!" Nynaeve said. "What gave you that idea?"

"We've just spent all afternoon drilling this girl about her visions." Corele nodded to Min. "They always come true, and she's seen things that obviously can't happen until after the Last Battle. So we know that Rand is going to defeat the Dark One. The Pattern has already decided it. We can stop worrying."

"No," Min said. "You're wrong."

Corele frowned. "Child, are you saying that you lied about the things you've seen?"

"No," Min said. "But if Rand loses, there is no Pattern."

"The girl is correct." Cadsuane sounded surprised. "What this child sees are weavings in the Pattern from a time still distant—but if the Dark One wins, he will destroy the Pattern entirely. This is the only way the visions could fail to occur. The same holds for other prophecies and Foretellings. Our victory is by no means sure."

That stilled the room. They weren't playing at village politics or national dominance. At stake was creation itself.

Very obviously, from this discussion, we cannot take any viewings of the future after the Last Battle for granted. Even saying, “this is what would happen should the good guys win,” doesn't cut it, because at this point, there simply is no future – it is unwritten, until the Last Battle occurs. The Pattern itself doesn't even know; it is unraveling more and more with every book that comes out; who is to say that Foretellings, Dreams, and Viewings are even remotely accurate anymore?

Because of this, I believe this viewing Aviendha had of the future is more akin to a possible “World of If,” such as can be accessed through the Portal Stones, than any sort of definite future. But why was she shown this, and what could avert this future?

The “why” part of the question is the thing I am most uncertain about. There are several things I'm thinking on, but the most likely, at this point, is that Nakomi had something to do with causing Aviendha to see what she saw. Perhaps Nakomi truly is Verin (http://www.theoryland.com/theories.php?func=5&rec=144&theo=2771), and this was all part of sneaky, sneaky Verin's methods to ensure victory at the Last Battle. Verin knows that the Last Battle is not being fought in the way Rand believes it will be – perhaps, if she and Nakomi are one and the same, she knows something which must happen to assure victory of the Light. Obviously, this is a stretch, but it seems to fit with both Terez' theory, and what we know about Verin's methods.

What about, though, “what could avert this future?”

To this, I have an answer that I feel satisfied with. Looking at one of the other quotes from Chapter 49, we see something interesting:


"We have been patient with you," Hehyal said. "We have come to you and explained what will happen if we cannot hold off the Seanchan."

"The Dragon's Peace—"

"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are
invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."

According to this future, Rand did indeed bow to Fortuona. For whatever reason, Rand saw the need to give the Seanchan Empire control of him, his utilities, and parts of the land. Perhaps he was somehow convinced that that was the only hope:


Tuon speaking: "'I must find a way to make contact with the Dragon Reborn as soon as possible. He must kneel before the Crystal Throne before Tarmon Gai'don, or all is lost.' The Prophecies of the Dragon said so, clearly."

It may have only taken him seeing the Crystal Throne, and hearing those words, to be convinced that it was necessary for the Dragon to submit to the will of the Empress to save the world and all creation. However, we as readers know the prophecies from Seanchan are corrupted (I quote from the [url=http://steelypips.org/wotfaq/4_prophecy/4.5_karaethon.html]Wheel of Time FAQ[/quote] here):

The Seanchan version of the Prophecies was actually mentioned prior to WH; Captain-General Kennar Miraj, the (now-deceased) commander of the Seanchan forces that confronted Rand in TPOD, reflected on them: "The Prophecies of the Dragon had been known in Seanchan even before Luthair Paendrag began the Consolidation. In corrupted form, it was said, much different from the pure version Luthair Paendrag brought. Miraj had seen several volumes of The Karaethon Cycle printed in these lands, and they were corrupted too - not one mentioned him serving the Crystal Throne! - but the Prophecies held men's minds and hearts still" [TPOD: 24, A Time for Iron, 461].

So apparently at least some of the Seanchan suspect that their version is not the correct one. Miraj's opinions about the Randland versions notwithstanding, it seems more likely overall that the Seanchan version is the only one altered from the original, whether accidentally or purposefully. (Purposefully, perhaps, because the Seanchan version obviously mentions the Crystal Throne by name, and as far as we know no one in Randland proper has ever heard of it; so why would it appear in a Randland-based prophecy?

Rand doesn't know about these prophecies – Tuon didn't tell him specifically in their meeting why she insisted that he bow to her, instead of the other way around. But in the future, it is possible that he both bowed, and then authorized the “Dragon's Peace,” which made it so that the nations could not fight the Seanchan off the lands after the Last Battle was over. But why would Rand do this? His will, as of Towers of Midnight does not seem so broken as it was previously, so it seems unlikely he would be willing to institute any long-standing laws or proclamations which would cause grief across the land – he's not looking at himself as just a weapon anymore, so I doubt he is looking at the other channelers as solely weapons either, which means I don't think he would give them up to Seanchans just so that he could win the Last Battle. At this point in the story, he knows the world must continue onward, and leaving the rule of the land in Seanchan's hands as things currently stand would be detrimental to all of Randland.

So how could the future be averted? By two aces in Rand's hole. The first is his charismatic Light-influenced Ta'veren effect:


No, this was one of his own ordinary dreams. He controlled them now. They were a place he could find peace to think, protected by wards while his body slept beside Min in their new camp, surrounded by Borderlanders, set up on the Field of Merrilor. Egwene was there, with armies marshaled. He was ready for that. He'd counted on it.

On the morrow, they would hear his demands. Not what he would demand to keep him from breaking the seals—he was going to do that, regardless of what Egwene said. No, these would be the demands he made on the monarchs of the world in exchange for going to Shayol Ghul to face the Dark One.

He wasn't certain what he'd do if they refused him. They would find it very difficult to do so. Sometimes, it could be useful to have a reputation for being irrational.

Rand obviously believes it is the history and fame of his “irrationality” which would win him over, but we've seen his Light-Ta'veren in effect lately, and it is powerful, powerful stuff. So he has this power. Then he has something else:


He relaxed his hand on his sword, though he did not release it. He fingered the cloth-tied hilt. The weapon was long, slightly curved, and the lacquered scabbard was painted with a long, sinuous dragon of red and gold. It looked as if it had been designed specifically for Rand—and yet it was centuries old, unearthed only recently. How odd, that they should find this now, he thought, and make a gift of it to me, completely unaware of what they were holding....

He had taken to wearing the sword immediately. It felt right beneath his fingers. He had told no one, not even Min, that he had recognized the weapon. And not, oddly, from Lews Therin's memories—but Rand's own.

According to an email correspondence between Kathana Travaeler and Brandon Sanderson, it has been confirmed that this sword is none other than the legendary Justice, wielded by Artur Hawkwing (citation needed?). We all know Hawkwing's associations with the Seanchan (which, if you don't, I don't have time to explain it here). Needless to say, this sword could be considered a very strong prize for the Seanchan, possibly even useful in helping Fortuona gain a hold in settling things back in Seandar, after the civil war which has covered the entire continent.

So here's what I believe will happen. Aviendha will travel to the Field of Merrilor and tell the Wise Ones gathered what she has seen. They will question her, but will eventually believe that she did see what she claims to have seen. They will then confront Rand either before Fortuona (with a ton of armies?) shows up on the Field, or during Rand and Fortuona's next confrontation. Rand will (unintentionally or not) use his Ligh-Ta'veren effect to butter Fortuona up, and then will either offer the sword to her himself, or will be asked by her to give it up. The negotiation which follows will end with Fortuona keeping the sword, and allowing Rand to use her armies. There may still be a Dragon's Peace, but it will be handled with a much different outcome that what we saw in the visions of the future. Thus, the remnant of Aiel can still be spared the horrible future we saw.

There. That's it. I know it's mostly speculation, but that's how I see things going down. I do not thing that Robert Jordan would have taken us on this twenty-plus year journey to leave us with such a feeling of hopelessness at the end, and if the Verin=Nakomi thing has any merit to it, I believe that makes the case even stronger. Hope you enjoy.

PS – I am happy to debate this theory with you, but as I've said, I admit this is almost 100% speculation, backed by only small “facts,” so go easy on me. Maybe we can all hammer out the details better.

Also, I don't think my theory meets with the requirements to post to the actual Theory Database, since I don't debate opposing ideas in this, and it is mostly an idea, more than anything else. If you think it should go there, feel free to help me flesh it out.

WinespringBrother
11-10-2010, 03:39 PM
This post certainly is worthy of submitting as a Post-Towers theory, IMO. I like the idea of Rand using Justice as more than just a weapon, and how it ties in with the Seanchan past as a token of Hawkwing.

Jokeslayer
11-10-2010, 03:41 PM
One thing I think might be important is exactly when Avi went through the columns and what the situations of the other characters were at the time. The future would have been a lot different before Rand went up Dragonmount or if he reached a different conclusion up there. Or if things had gone down differently in Bandar Eban - if he hadn't put things right there, thus proving that he could be a caring leader, perhaps he would have wanted to leave more to the Seanchan who he knows can care for their people well.

Trutino
11-10-2010, 03:47 PM
One thing I think might be important is exactly when Avi went through the columns and what the situations of the other characters were at the time. The future would have been a lot different before Rand went up Dragonmount or if he reached a different conclusion up there. Or if things had gone down differently in Bandar Eban - if he hadn't put things right there, thus proving that he could be a caring leader, perhaps he would have wanted to leave more to the Seanchan who he knows can care for their people well.

Though, if Rand had failed at DM, there would have been no Last Battle, no post-battle peace.

I am curious, since there has been talk of portal stones in ToM and because I've sensed that Avi's visions have something of the "world most likely" aspects of portal worlds. What exactly did Verin see in tGH in her portal vision? Could this play into the future Aviendha saw or her possible cameo as Nakomi?

Jokeslayer
11-10-2010, 03:50 PM
Though, if Rand had failed at DM, there would have been no Last Battle, no post-battle peace.

But was there only one correct thign for him to do? I don't think so (I may be wrong, I forget stuff all the time).

Also, I think Bandar Eban was a better example of what might have gone differently, or not at all, than Dragonmount.

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 04:10 PM
Just thought of another part to my theory. Remember Min's viewing that there was something strange about Aviendha's four children? Perhaps that "strangeness" is a clue. In an extremely far-fetching-type of a way, perhaps Aviendha believes she must either change the birth conditions of her children, or stop the births from happening altogether? She seemed to realize in the viewings that her children led to this. Maybe that's something that needs changing... (which could really be quite horrifying, if you think about it).

Landro
11-10-2010, 04:25 PM
The strange thing about Avienda's children is that they are natural channelers. They spark at a very early age and have intuitive control over the OP and from their own PoV they are far superior to other channelers,

TankSpill
11-10-2010, 04:29 PM
The strange thing about Avienda's children is that they are natural channelers. They spark at a very early age and have intuitive control over the OP and from their own PoV they are far superior to other channelers,

Possibly.... though that doesn't really explain why two of the children look absolutely nothing like Rand and Aviendha. ;) I think that could be explained by Aviendha attempting, through the One Power, or by asking the Wise Ones' help, to change her babies in some way, pre-birth. But honestly, that's not anything I'm staking my theory on.

TankSpill
11-11-2010, 11:06 AM
One thing I think might be important is exactly when Avi went through the columns and what the situations of the other characters were at the time.

I'm pretty curious about this, too. I wonder how long it will take to get some good updated calendars, so we see exactly what the time period is. It would be useful to know when this happened in relation to Verin's meeting with Egwene as well (for obvious reasons).

Terez
11-11-2010, 12:16 PM
Yeah, I have been thinking along the same lines with Justice. You missed some important quotes - first, 'he shall slay them with the sword of peace'. And second:

And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him.
And the Peace of the Light did he give men.
Binding nations to him.
Making one of many.
Yet the shards of hearts did give wounds.
And what was once did come again
– in fire and in storm
splitting all in twain.
For his peace...
– for his peace...
. . . was the peace...
. . . was the peace...
. . . of the sword .
And the Glory of the Light did shine upon him.
I wonder about the 'shards of hearts'. The seals? (heartstone) The Aiel? (the 'heart' of Rhuidean) And finally, there is the Wise Ones' dream suggesting that Rand will cut the wetlands in two with a sword, and Nicola's Foretelling - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Rand bowing to Tuon is a bad thing. Oncala assumed that the Seanchan would not hold to their oaths because of that, but we'll never know for sure, since the Aiel started the fight.

TankSpill
11-11-2010, 02:02 PM
Yeah, I have been thinking along the same lines with Justice. You missed some important quotes - first, 'he shall slay them with the sword of peace'. And second:

And finally, there is the Wise Ones' dream suggesting that Rand will cut the wetlands in two with a sword, and Nicola's Foretelling - 'the future teeters on the edge of a blade'.

Also, I wouldn't be so sure that Rand bowing to Tuon is a bad thing. Oncala assumed that the Seanchan would not hold to their oaths because of that, but we'll never know for sure, since the Aiel started the fight.

Hadn't the Seanchan already (supposedly) backed out of their part of the bargain by the time we got to Padra et al's section? I don't have the book in front of me.

Also, yes definitely missed a few pertinent quotes! That's what I get for not being called the "Quotemistress!" I suppose. :) In particular, the first one "Slay them with the sword of peace," and Nicola's Foretelling to me seem to lend a lot of credence to my theory, while the Wise One's dream could help with it, but definitely could be twisted in other ways as well.

And I believe I would have to hold on taking a stance on the 'goodness' or 'badness' of Rand bowing to Fortuona based on how the whole 'slavery' thing works itself out. If damane, sul'dam, a'dams, and Channeling in general were to be changed drastically from their current state of being, then it could lead to a pretty good future, I imagine. But I doubt that I (and honestly, even Robert Jordan, based on what I know of his theology, philosophy, etcetera - which, granted, is not much ;) but there's a little bit of info out there) could have sat well with the knowledge that in the future, slavery will just be a part of everyone's life.

Anyhoo, another thought on the 'strangeness' of Min's Viewing about Aviendha's children. I wonder, if Aviendha finds her children to be part of the reason for this horrible future, perhaps she would adopt her children out, ala Maiden-style, to keep them from ever being known as the Dragon-blooded. This could certainly be seen as part of the 'strangeness' of the Viewing, I would think.

Grig
11-11-2010, 02:12 PM
Hadn't the Seanchan already (supposedly) backed out of their part of the bargain by the time we got to Padra et al's section? I don't have the book in front of me.

I don't, either, but I do recall that the Aiel explicitly thought that the Seanchan had at no point broken the Dragon's Peace before the Aiel ploy to draw Andor into the fighting by showing contingency plans for the assassination of the queen. The Aiel were sure that they would do so, but the Seanchan were not the aggressors at the beginning (although they appear to have seized the opportunity after the Aiel tricked Andor into breaking the Peace).

Terez
11-11-2010, 02:15 PM
Hadn't the Seanchan already (supposedly) backed out of their part of the bargain by the time we got to Padra et al's section? I don't have the book in front of me.
Nope. The Aiel were killing their patrols, but the Seanchan hadn't attacked anyone. The Aiel skirmished with each other, and the nations skirmished with each other, but there was nothing to indicate that the Seanchan had broken the Peace.

One option is that Aviendha realizes that in order to avoid being consumed by the Seanchan in the future, they must accept the Empire now. As we saw with Beslan, it's not so bad. The biggest problem is the slavery thing, especially the damane, but I rather think they will hammer that one out as well. And the Aiel must accept the Way of the Leaf again; they cannot continue to seek their honor in battle in an age of Peace. Perhaps they will (willingly) replace the da'covale? Though of course the nature of the service would have to change completely. The Da'shain Aiel gained honor through service, but the da'covale are deliberately shamed.

TankSpill
11-11-2010, 02:16 PM
More thoughts on this theory (apparently, I'm going to have to re-write this soon):

The Ter'angreal we're familiar with which in any way show "visions of the future," or "alternate realities," "different realities," "unknown realities," and the like (The Accepted Testing Things, the Aes Sedai Testing Thing, the Dream Rings, etcetera) all seem to be able to be subjected to manipulation in some way. Perhaps the FutureSpires ™ were also being manipulated?

Terez
11-11-2010, 02:19 PM
How were the Rings manipulated?

I don't really see any evidence for the columns having been tampered with in any way. They were simply waiting for the first Aiel to come along and not be satisfied with what they had learned about the past. There was probably a prophecy involved...

TankSpill
11-11-2010, 02:20 PM
Nope. The Aiel were killing their patrols, but the Seanchan hadn't attacked anyone. The Aiel skirmished with each other, and the nations skirmished with each other, but there was nothing to indicate that the Seanchan had broken the Peace.

Gotcha


One option is that Aviendha realizes that in order to avoid being consumed by the Seanchan in the future, they must accept the Empire now. As we saw with Beslan, it's not so bad. The biggest problem is the slavery thing, especially the damane, but I rather think they will hammer that one out as well. And the Aiel must accept the Way of the Leaf again; they cannot continue to seek their honor in battle in an age of Peace. Perhaps they will (willingly) replace the da'covale? Though of course the nature of the service would have to change completely. The Da'shain Aiel gained honor through service, but the da'covale are deliberately shamed.

I like it. I've seen a few theories here and there that say the "remnant" who survive will be those who revert to the Way. Anyone got any links to well-thought-out theories on that?

I, too, think the slavery thing is going to be worked out - my belief stems entirely from meta-information, but I just don't think RJ ever had any intentions of finishing this series with us thinking, "So, slavery's the new 'In,', huh?" I wonder if maybe we'll see something like Channelers actually taking on an honored role in the empire - perhaps Empire channelers are sent to the White Tower (since Egwene wants them all to have that affiliation), and the Tower sends honored emissaries, counselors, and/or advisors to the Empire.

Plus, we know Mat doesn't like the whole damane thing, so I'm sure he'll have something to say about it next time he and Fortuona hook up, as well.

How were the Rings manipulated?

I don't really see any evidence for the columns having been tampered with in any way. They were simply waiting for the first Aiel to come along and not be satisfied with what they had learned about the past. There was probably a prophecy involved...

If they were manipulated, I admit it would have to have been in a pretty convoluted way. Say, Nakomi (as Verin) knows something of some dark plans for the future, and thus gets Aviendha thinking about the unsatisfactory role of the Aiel in the future. She then follows Aviendha to the spires does... something? I know, speculation, it was just a thought.

markerikson
11-11-2010, 02:36 PM
One very simple way for Aviendha to get Rand to deal with the Seanchan more firmly than her visions imply he will is to give herself up to them.

If someone Rand loves is captured by an a'dam, he'll probably decide to deal with the damane issue there and then, and he's unlikely to bow to Fortuona.

It could also lead to some cool scenes in which Fortuona tries to "tame" her new Aiel damane, but Aviendha's willpower holds strong.

And my theory on why Aviendha's children don't share Rand's colouring is still that Rand's soul will occupy Logain's body after the last battle. The true purpose of Callandor being Transmigration after Rand's death. Thus, his post LB kids aren't all redheads..

TankSpill
11-11-2010, 02:53 PM
And my theory on why Aviendha's children don't share Rand's colouring is still that Rand's soul will occupy Logain's body after the last battle. The true purpose of Callandor being Transmigration after Rand's death. Thus, his post LB kids aren't all redheads..

Oh, that's a weird one! :) Got anything written up on this?

arioch
11-11-2010, 03:52 PM
Oh, that's a weird one! :) Got anything written up on this?

Eh, the Logain's body stealing thing doesn't seem right. The last things we'd heard about Callandor in ToM, one of them says that if you stand before the void with it all that is you can be seized (by the void/Dark One), and the other says that an onyx hand will wield it. It seems to point more to a Rand-needs-to-be-killed-at-the-event resolution to sealing the Bore.

Crispin's Crispian
11-11-2010, 03:58 PM
How were the Rings manipulated?

I don't really see any evidence for the columns having been tampered with in any way. They were simply waiting for the first Aiel to come along and not be satisfied with what they had learned about the past. There was probably a prophecy involved...
From Nynaeve's raising test it's clear that the AS involved were manipulating the ter'angreal. It's not clear whether the same is true for the others. Obviously no one has been around to manipulate the Rhuidean rings, so that's rather irrelevant.

It does seem odd that no one ever tried to go back in to the columns. Or maybe they did, but died.

arioch
11-11-2010, 04:00 PM
From Nynaeve's raising test it's clear that the AS involved were manipulating the ter'angreal. It's not clear whether the same is true for the others. Obviously no one has been around to manipulate the Rhuidean rings, so that's rather irrelevant.

It does seem odd that no one ever tried to go back in to the columns. Or maybe they did, but died.

Maybe of the few who were curious enough, once they got done with the past, they couldn't stand the vision of the future.

Of the rings in Rhuidean, I think Moiraine was able to see some huge number of her potential futures in them, which doesn't seem like how the Acceptatron rings work.

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 05:13 PM
One thing that stands out to me is that even in that dystopian future Andor remains a major power with Caemlyn as its captial after the Last Battle for a few decades before getting overrun by the Seanchan. That means that Talmanes is going to hold on long enough for kin to get to Elayne and come back with reinforcements.

alleluia_cone
11-11-2010, 05:47 PM
One thing that stands out to me is that even in that dystopian future Andor remains a major power with Caemlyn as its captial after the Last Battle for a few decades before getting overrun by the Seanchan. That means that Talmanes is going to hold on long enough for kin to get to Elayne and come back with reinforcements.

This didn't occur to me. I'm starting to increasingly hate Min and all forms of future vision; it's really ruining any dramatic tension in the story.

Isn't it enough that Graendal can't simply Travel to Perrin's tent at night and balefire him because Perrin is immune from death by dictate?

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 06:02 PM
This didn't occur to me. I'm starting to increasingly hate Min and all forms of future vision; it's really ruining any dramatic tension in the story.

Isn't it enough that Graendal can't simply Travel to Perrin's tent at night and balefire him because Perrin is immune from death by dictate?

There's an obvious in story reason why she won't do that. She's afraid of the ta'varen effect. Better to risk pawns like Slayer or Byar than her valuable self. Graendal seems even more selfish than most of the chosen. She could travel to his tent only to find him doing a late night strategy session with the wise ones, Aes Sedai and the Ahsa'man.

morat'corlm
11-11-2010, 06:02 PM
Anyhoo, another thought on the 'strangeness' of Min's Viewing about Aviendha's children. I wonder, if Aviendha finds her children to be part of the reason for this horrible future, perhaps she would adopt her children out, ala Maiden-style, to keep them from ever being known as the Dragon-blooded.Warning, warning, Oedipus!

alleluia_cone
11-11-2010, 06:07 PM
There's an obvious in story reason why she won't do that. She's afraid of the ta'varen effect. Better to risk pawns like Slayer or Byar than her valuable self.

How the hell would this assert itself? The balefire would bend around Perrin?

Hell, she could do it from her hideout, laying in her lounge and hit him from thousands of miles away.

There is no good reason for not doing so.

In fact, Moridin can do the same thing.

Before there was an issue because they couldn't be found. But now that Mat and Perrin are traveling in company with thousands of people, this excuse doesn't hold water anymore.

morat'corlm
11-11-2010, 06:28 PM
The reason Graendal doesn't do so is that she's terrified of being captured or killed by the ten or so channelers Perrin has around him, and Graendal is much like Moghedien in valuing her personal safety above all else.

The reason Moridin and Co. don't teach some of the proto-Dreadlords balefire and send them out onto the front lines as suicide agents is rather less clear.

alleluia_cone
11-11-2010, 06:32 PM
The reason Moridin and Co. don't teach some of the proto-Dreadlords balefire and send them out onto the front lines as suicide agents is rather less clear.

Oh no, the reason is very clear: Perrin can't die.

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 06:46 PM
How the hell would this assert itself? The balefire would bend around Perrin?


I laid it out in black in white.

"She could travel to his tent only to find him doing a late night strategy session with the wise ones, Aes Sedai and the Ahsa'man."

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 06:49 PM
The reason Moridin and Co. don't teach some of the proto-Dreadlords balefire and send them out onto the front lines as suicide agents is rather less clear.

Teaching any dreadlord balefire would be crazy. With it someone who is totally outclassed could kill one of the forsaken, and given the personalities of the Dreadlords that is definitely a threat. They'd never take the risk.

alleluia_cone
11-11-2010, 10:07 PM
I laid it out in black in white.

"She could travel to his tent only to find him doing a late night strategy session with the wise ones, Aes Sedai and the Ahsa'man."

This is getting absurd; I can't believe you're trying to justify the unjustifiable. How about she Travels outside the camp, uses a bloody dove to follow him around, and when he goes to the privy she Travels right there and cooks him while he is in the middle of taking a piss. Really, this isn't that complicated.

I can willingly suspend my disbelief but don't tell me to truly believe something is white when it's black.

Edit: And by the way, if Graendal was willing to go to the Caemlyn palace with Rand bloody al'Thor there, she can take the risk with Perrin.

finn
11-11-2010, 11:08 PM
Edit: And by the way, if Graendal was willing to go to the Caemlyn palace with Rand bloody al'Thor there, she can take the risk with Perrin.

But her target there was Asmodean. There wasn't a risk of getting caught up in his Ta'veren web, having him escape by lucky chance, getting captured or killed by accident, etc.

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 11:25 PM
This is getting absurd; I can't believe you're trying to justify the unjustifiable. How about she Travels outside the camp, uses a bloody dove to follow him around, and when he goes to the privy she Travels right there and cooks him while he is in the middle of taking a piss. Really, this isn't that complicated.

I can willingly suspend my disbelief but don't tell me to truly believe something is white when it's black.

Edit: And by the way, if Graendal was willing to go to the Caemlyn palace with Rand bloody al'Thor there, she can take the risk with Perrin.
There's no way Perrin wouldn't notice such unnatural behavior from an animal.

She had no way of knowing that Rand had conquered the palace when she went. She was obviously just going to visit Rahvin and ran into Asmodean by accident.

Belazamon
11-11-2010, 11:28 PM
She had no way of knowing that Rand had conquered the palace when she went. She was obviously just going to visit Rahvin and ran into Asmodean by accident.
Not necessarily. She had no problem sneaking into Illian to raid Sammael's stash after Rand and his Asha'man moved in.

Charlz Guybon
11-11-2010, 11:36 PM
Not necessarily. She had no problem sneaking into Illian to raid Sammael's stash after Rand and his Asha'man moved in.

She arrived in Caemlyn like an hour after it fell, there's no way she could have known already what had happened.

Terez
11-12-2010, 02:10 AM
When did this thread turn into an Asmodean debate?

Jonai
11-12-2010, 03:22 AM
Even the Forsaken are hesitant to use B-fire. You saw Demandred go nervous as a school girl when Dark Maximus suggested frying the Dragon. No way they would teach the weave to others.

And...I think everything eventually devolves into an Asmo debate.

jana
11-12-2010, 03:36 AM
And...I think everything eventually devolves into an Asmo debate.

I debated Asmo with my cat this morning when I was deciding which shirt to wear.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 03:39 AM
You debated with Frenzy?

markerikson
11-12-2010, 04:21 AM
Oh, that's a weird one! :) Got anything written up on this?

I could probably whip something up, although it's only loosely supported by the text, it's just become my pet theory on how Rand gets around the "to live you must die" prophecy.

If I wanted to put something like this together, would I just start a new thread about it?

Jokeslayer
11-12-2010, 05:21 AM
I could probably whip something up, although it's only loosely supported by the text, it's just become my pet theory on how Rand gets around the "to live you must die" prophecy.

If I wanted to put something like this together, would I just start a new thread about it?

Yes, yes you would.

I'd be interested to see how it meshes with Logain's glory.

TankSpill
11-12-2010, 01:26 PM
When did this thread turn into an Asmodean debate?

I do not know, but I wish it hadn't. :(

Anyway, Dragon-blooded = "blood on the rocks of Shayol Ghul?" Will look more into this.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:28 PM
We have a time honored saying here on TL...All threads lead to Asmo.


Soon to be replaced by "All threads lead to Egwene".

Some topics just seem to dominate all the threads on the board from time to time.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 02:11 PM
We have a time honored saying here on TL...All threads lead to Asmo.


Soon to be replaced by "All threads lead to Egwene".

Some topics just seem to dominate all the threads on the board from time to time.

Nope, "All threads shall lead ultimately to 3M's, Nynaeve, Valan Luca, Ila". ;)

Who are the 3M's again? Mat, Mierin, Moiraine, but of course! :D

Belazamon
11-12-2010, 02:35 PM
When did this thread turn into an Asmodean debate?
Looks like it started to turn around post #23. Seems to have fizzled out pretty quickly, though.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 03:20 PM
There's no way Perrin wouldn't notice such unnatural behavior from an animal.


I don't know if it was intended, but this was the funniest line I've read in a while.



Not necessarily. She had no problem sneaking into Illian to raid Sammael's stash after Rand and his Asha'man moved in.

Even leaving Graendal aside, why didn't Slayer try to hunt Perrin in the Wolf Dream? Perrin had to go after him, and only because he had the Dreamspike. Did Slayer have to babysit the thing? Does it have pedals?

Perrin barely got rid of Slayer even after all his intensive training, so he should have been a pretty easy target at the beginning of the book. Maybe Hopper was helping him out, but if Slayer can appear in a random Aes Sedai's room in the Tower of all places, why was he just hanging out in the Wolf Dream version of Perrin's menagerie? What was Slayer's role in this, exactly?

Terez
11-13-2010, 12:25 AM
I figure Slayer probably had orders. And yes, he was probably guarding the dreamspike. There was no other reason for him to always be hanging out around it.