PDA

View Full Version : New thoughts on Fain's role


Trutino
11-11-2010, 06:01 PM
Towers of Midnight book tour 8 November 2010 Lincoln Triangle Barnes and Noble NY, NY - WinespringBrother reporting

Q: (a takeoff on Leigh's review) I've seen this somewhere before : gollumgollumgollum
A: Fain will not end up like Gollum. Though Harriet said he is even crazier than how he was shown in prologue.


Towers of Midnight book tour 8 November 2010 Lincoln Triangle Barnes and Noble NY, NY - Sarayne reporting


Q: Is Padan Fain going to turn out like Gollum?
Brandon: No, he is not going to be like that. I am aware of the comparisons, and I am trying to distance him from that. The scene in Towers of Midnight with Padan Fain was originally written differently, and when I submitted it to Harriet she said, Oh no hes much crazier than that! So I changed it accordingly.

So, if Padan Fain is not going to play a Gollum role, what role will he play? We know he's a "wild card" and that he's "sidestepped" the pattern. Discussions about Fain's role before had always been tainted by the specter of Gollum. Now that we know that's not the case, what is he going to do?

I suspect that he won't appear at or fall into the opening of Shayol Ghul, simply because that idea is so full of Gollum-like possibilities. Will he kill Rand? Will he steal the Horn of Valere again?

dpt24
11-11-2010, 06:07 PM
Or will Moridin/Dememdred balefire him. I honestly don't see how that's Fain's going to work. He's powerful, but channelers will still rip him apart. Rand, Moridin, Demerdred, Nyneave, Egwene, Alivia,Logain and others will have no problem killing him, so not sure how he's going to kill Rand. And, if Perrin's with Rand, he should be able to detect Fain (is that's one of the times Perrin will save Rand?) And by going through the blight, he's going to get the shadow's attention back on him, and I don't think he'll survive a visit by Mordin. Plus, Shadar Haran can affect him, as he has sworn his soul to the shadow, or at least the half that's Fain has.

morat'corlm
11-11-2010, 06:24 PM
Would it be too Gollum-y if his body were used as a focus for the new seal, so that saidar/saidin didn't touch Shai'tan?

arioch
11-11-2010, 06:29 PM
How are we defining "Gollum" role here?

Wolfmage
11-11-2010, 08:17 PM
I've always felt that Fain will be the one to kill Shaidar Haran - the DO's avatar. SH's TS nullification zone will prevent light-side channellers from killing him, and it works pretty well to have Fain's essence kill the DO's essence.

Trutino
11-11-2010, 08:37 PM
I've always felt that Fain will be the one to kill Shaidar Haran - the DO's avatar. SH's TS nullification zone will prevent light-side channellers from killing him, and it works pretty well to have Fain's essence kill the DO's essence.

Hmm...I kind of like that. Is there a character (plot-wise or theme-wise) who fits better as someone for Fain to face off with? If not, it might just work. What, I wonder, are the consequences of killing SH?

Wolfmage
11-11-2010, 08:48 PM
Hmm...I kind of like that. Is there a character (plot-wise or theme-wise) who fits better as someone for Fain to face off with?

Nobody that I can think of. Rand will have his hands full, and the two other ta'veren already have opposites more suited to their nature. Perrin has Slayer, and Mat has the Shadow's Supreme Commander - most probably Demandred.

Given that SH is basically the embodiment of the DO on earth, it fits that the embodiment of Shadar Logoth will be needed to kill him off.


If not, it might just work. What, I wonder, are the consequences of killing SH?
I'm not sure, but it would be a big blow to the DO.

Once the seals are broken, I can see SH levelling up massively, and his powers will eclipse anything we've seen so far (and he's already formidable).

So far he has avoided direct confrontation with the forces of light - but I can't see that staying the same at the Last Battle. My guess is that he's going to be striding around the battlefield, laying waste to things and perhaps even pulling out targeted bubbles of evil.

Even if Fain doesn't seek out SH directly, I can imagine that if SH were to threaten Rand Fain would kill it with his dagger just to deny the DO the victory.

dpt24
11-11-2010, 09:10 PM
Thing about SH is he's limited in what he can do to people who haven't sworn to the shadow. For example, Brandon said he couldn't have put the adam around Rand's neck himself, but he could spring Semerihge. I could defintly see SH killed by Mat, Perrin, or Lan. Maybe Gawyn or Galad too.

arioch
11-11-2010, 09:11 PM
Thing about SH is he's limited in what he can do to people who haven't sworn to the shadow. For example, Brandon said he couldn't have put the adam around Rand's neck himself, but he could spring Semerihge. I could defintly see SH killed by Mat, Perrin, or Lan. Maybe Gawyn or Galad too.

I think that might depend on when the last seals on the DO's prison are broken.

Zoltar
11-12-2010, 12:21 AM
Fain will steal Mat's medallion and become invincible :D

Jokeslayer
11-12-2010, 05:17 AM
How are we defining "Gollum" role here?

This.

Most people seem to be thinking it refers to Gollum destroying the ring. It looks more to me like "as crazy as gollum".

OTOH, I do like the idea that he'll be the one to kill Shaidar Haran.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:56 AM
I've always felt that Fain will be the one to kill Shaidar Haran - the DO's avatar. SH's TS nullification zone will prevent light-side channellers from killing him, and it works pretty well to have Fain's essence kill the DO's essence.Yeah, but some Wolfking now has a very fancy Shadowspawn crushing hammer, which seems especially designed for this particular job.
So your idea seems a bit less likely.

Enheduanna
11-12-2010, 12:14 PM
Yeah, but some Wolfking now has a very fancy Shadowspawn crushing hammer, which seems especially designed for this particular job.
So your idea seems a bit less likely.

I think it would be more likely that Perrin will have his hands full with darkhounds. I'm sure the hammer's abilities will revert them back to wolves.

The scenario might be something like this: Fain turns up at Shayol Ghul, SH thinks "time to destroy this worm", but Fain works his magic and one touch does SH in. Moridin turns up, "aaarrgh, hand of the dark is dead? where the F is Slayer, It was his primary task to take care of Fain. Slayer turns up, Fain cuts Slayer up a bit with his pretty little knife, Slayer bleeds on the rocks of Shayol Ghul (it has to be in the flesh, as TAR can't be entered in the Blight) in the body of Luc, as Luc is the one that appears in the flesh. Luc flips out and goes all medieval on Fain and kills him. Perrin turns up with Rand, Nyn, Mo, Mat,Alivia and whoever else wants to come help. He spots Slayer gloating over Fain, and whacks him with his hammer. this knocks the ISAM out of Slayer, which leaves Luc in posession of his body, Luc then dies with the words "Rand, I am your uncle".Everyone sees the Shadar Logoth evil oozing out of Fain's body, Rand pushes the evil essence of Fain toward the bore and uses it to shield the channelers from touching the DO. Moridin pops up and goes BOO, Rand throws down with Moridin, but as they get closer to each other they somehow merge, and end up in a shared Moridin body. After that, meh, I dunno, anyone got more?

Blue Nine
11-12-2010, 02:57 PM
Would it be too Gollum-y if his body were used as a focus for the new seal, so that saidar/saidin didn't touch Shai'tan?

I think we need to give this concept more credence. What if his actions arent what cause the Light to win, but simply his existence?

Has the possibility of Fain's immortality ever been discussed? IF he were immortal, what better Seal would there be? Stick him in a vacuole somewhere and bam! Bob's your uncle, we've got ourselves a pre-tainted, won't taint saidin/saidar Seal.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 08:41 PM
I think it would be more likely that Perrin will have his hands full with darkhounds. I'm sure the hammer's abilities will revert them back to wolves.

The scenario might be something like this: Fain turns up at Shayol Ghul, SH thinks "time to destroy this worm", but Fain works his magic and one touch does SH in. Moridin turns up, "aaarrgh, hand of the dark is dead? where the F is Slayer, It was his primary task to take care of Fain. Slayer turns up, Fain cuts Slayer up a bit with his pretty little knife, Slayer bleeds on the rocks of Shayol Ghul (it has to be in the flesh, as TAR can't be entered in the Blight) in the body of Luc, as Luc is the one that appears in the flesh. Luc flips out and goes all medieval on Fain and kills him. Perrin turns up with Rand, Nyn, Mo, Mat,Alivia and whoever else wants to come help. He spots Slayer gloating over Fain, and whacks him with his hammer. this knocks the ISAM out of Slayer, which leaves Luc in posession of his body, Luc then dies with the words "Rand, I am your uncle".Everyone sees the Shadar Logoth evil oozing out of Fain's body, Rand pushes the evil essence of Fain toward the bore and uses it to shield the channelers from touching the DO. Moridin pops up and goes BOO, Rand throws down with Moridin, but as they get closer to each other they somehow merge, and end up in a shared Moridin body. After that, meh, I dunno, anyone got more?

Fain crucifying a Fade in TGH is still one of the best scenes in the book...even if its in flashback form. Fain is just a pure badass.

pbdp
03-07-2011, 04:09 AM
Have we ever considered that Fain might replace the Dark One?

RJ himself said that Fain had stepped out of the pattern, and according to Harid Fel the DO's prison would have to be completely sealed and the DO forgotten when the Age where the Aes Sedai bore's into the prison comes again.

What if Fain, infested with an evil born out of human greed, is the next DO?

What better than Rand defeating the DO (making everyone believe that the DO is dead) and sealing away Fain, leaving him forgotten for two ages till someone bores into his prison to tap the power of Mordeth?

We know that the world turns on balance, light vs dark, saidar vs saidin etc. So if Rand defeats the DO, the world will need another evil force to balance out the Light and keep the WoT turning...

GonzoTheGreat
03-07-2011, 04:49 AM
I don't think Fain would make a good DO. He has too much of a tendency to eat his followers to be able to gather enough of them to do any actual work on preparing to take over the world.

Terez
03-07-2011, 06:03 AM
It's been brought up a few times. It doesn't make much sense to me, but I suppose I can see the appeal.

Weird Harold
03-07-2011, 07:20 AM
Hmm...I kind of like that. Is there a character (plot-wise or theme-wise) who fits better as someone for Fain to face off with? If not, it might just work. What, I wonder, are the consequences of killing SH?
I would expect killing Shadar Haran to have the same affect on the DO as setting Kermit on fire would have on Jim Henson. :p (It would focus his attention very closely on the 'hand with covered with melted and burning foam' to the exclusion of everything else.)

Terez
03-07-2011, 07:40 AM
I dunno. I'd imagine it's at least plausible that he'd be able to disengage fairly quickly.

Yellowbeard
03-07-2011, 03:28 PM
I think the precedent is set that Fain's kind of evil is capable of cancelling out the DO's evil. That's why the wounds in Rand's side keep each other in check, and we all know how Rand was able to cleanse Saidin.

Fain will have some role in defeating the DO. Maybe even willingly. It won't be like Gollum's role (Gollum didn't have the strength to stand against Sauron for example), though. It won't be an accidental bit of fate/luck that saves the day like in LotR's. I suspect that's what was meant by the comments that Fain does not equal Gollum.

If Fain doesn't have a role in defeating the DO...what's been his purpose throughout the series? Will be like Fain is just another winnowing for weevils bit in the story that meant nothing. I just don't think that's gonna happen.

New Futurist Man
03-07-2011, 07:29 PM
dpt24: "[Fain's] powerful, but channelers will still rip him apart."

You would think so. You'd think it would be a forgone conclusion that he'd get mauled versus a channeler. However if that 'mist' he used to spear the myrddraal in TofM and turn the trollocs to zombies - is in fact some mutation of Mashadar, and as we know its emanating from about his person, pretty much wreathing him in its protection - then, because we know even balefire only repels Mashadar, and doesn't kill it - then theres a very real possibility he could present serious opposition to a channeler who's caught by surprise or cornered.

The idea he could will the Mashadar-like 'mist' to surround him is entirely conceivable, when he employed it in a similar fashion in TofM, were it obeyed his will and struck out against the Shadowspawn...

Who knows what other tricks he's got up his sleeve.

FelixPax
03-08-2011, 03:48 PM
So, if Padan Fain is not going to play a Gollum role, what role will he play? We know he's a "wild card" and that he's "sidestepped" the pattern. Discussions about Fain's role before had always been tainted by the specter of Gollum. Now that we know that's not the case, what is he going to do?


The Creature former known as Padan Fain Mordeth, I strongly suspect will stab the "Moon" with his Aridhol dagger.

One quote I'm thinking of this, 'The moon was as blood':

And the Shadow fell upon the Land, and the World was riven stone from stone. The oceans fled, and the mountains were swallowed up, and the nations were scattered to the eight corners of the World. The moon was as blood, and the sun was as ashes. The seas boiled, and the living envied the dead. All was shattered, and all but memory lost, and one memory above all others, of him who brought the Shadow and the Breaking of the World. And him they named Dragon.

—from Aleth nin Taerin alta Camora,
The Breaking of the World.
Author unknown, the Fourth Age


Who is the "Moon" in question? Mierin.

One quote of many is:

The moonlight seemed to make her skin glow.


The Great Hunt, Chapter 19 'Beneath the Dagger' -- Rand point of view; with Mierin/Selene, Hurin, Loial


Remember Fain can find Rand al'Thor if he is not holding the 'Void'. Fain knows where Rand needs to head ultimately too (ToM book).

Al’Thor was up there, somewhere, in the mountains. With the Horn. His teeth grated audibly at the thought. He did not know where, exactly, but something pulled him toward the mountains. Toward al’Thor. That much of the Dark One’s . . . gift . . . remained to him. He had hardly thought of it, had tried not to think of it, until suddenly, after the Horn was gone—Gone!—al’Thor was there, drawing him as meat draws a starving dog.

The Great Hunt, Chapter 19 'Beneath the Dagger' --Padan Fain point of view


Mierin has previously seen the very object which mostly likely will cause her to bleed in the future:

“Cairhien,” he agreed. “You will have to show me where you live, Selene. I’ve never been to Cairhien.” He reached to close the chest.

“You took something else from the Friends of the Dark?” Selene said. “You spoke earlier of a dagger.”

[I]How could I forget? He left the chest as it was and pulled the dagger from his belt. The bare blade curved like a horn, and the quillons were golden serpents. Set in the hilt, a ruby as big as his thumbnail winked like an evil eye in the moonlight. Ornate as it was, tainted as he knew it was, it felt no different from any other knife.

“Be careful,” Selene said. “Do not cut yourself.”

Rand felt a shiver inside. If simply carrying it was dangerous, he did not want to know what a cut from it would do. “This is from Shadar Logoth,” he told the others. “It will twist whoever carries it for long, taint them to the bone the way Shadar Logoth is tainted. Without Aes Sedai Healing, that taint will kill, eventually.”

The Great Hunt, Chapter 19 'Beneath the Dagger' -- Rand point of view; with Mierin/Selene, Hurin, Loial


Fain knows that Rand will have company, Mierin, after reading the Dark Prophecy written on the walls of Fal Dara prison cells (TGH book).

Seth Baker
03-08-2011, 05:09 PM
By jove, Felix, I think that's pretty darn reasonable. :D