PDA

View Full Version : Perrin, destined to die....


phoenix
11-11-2010, 08:09 PM
What if Perrin is destined to die? It seems to have been foreshadowed at times and i believe there are a few reasons to believe it will happen right from the beginning


One of mins viewings,

"The strongest things I see about the big, curly-haired fellow (Perrin) are a wolf, and a broken crown, and trees flowering all around him."

-The Eye of the World, Strangers and Friends

Perrins parents were buried under a hill with apple trees, could be indication that he will join them.... The broken crown perhaps meaning failure also, though it could also have other meanings...



A wolfdream,

He ran easily through the night in spite of the snow that covered the ground. He was one with the shadows, slipping through the forest, the moonlight almost as clear to his eyes as the light of the sun. A cold wind ruffled his thick fur, and suddenly brought a scent that made his hackles stand and his heart race with a hatred greater than that for the Neverborn. Hatred, and a sure knowledge of death coming. There were no choices to be made, not now. He ran harder, toward death...
This dream was fading quickly, in the manner of dreams, yet he remembered being a wolf and smelling. . . . What? Something wolves hated more than they did Myrddraal. Something a wolf knew would kill him. The knowledge he had had in the dream was gone; only vague impressions remained. He had not been in the wolf dream, that reflection of this world where dead wolves lived on and the living could go to consult them. The wolf dream always remained clear in his head after he left, whether he had gone there consciously or not. Yet this dream still seemed real, and somehow urgent.

- Crossroads of Twilight, The Forging of a Hammer

I think the part about smelling something the wolves hated and knew would kill them could be either the last battle or more likely Slayer...




His parralel of thor,
At Ragnarok, the end of the world, Thor is destined to fight the evil world serpent Jörmungand and the two will kill each other.

Linda from 13th depository attributes this resemblance of Thor to Rand, but i think this could indicate a battle with Slayer perhaps, or one of the forsaken etc



Another of Mins veiwings,
An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.
-Towers of Midnight, For what has been wrought

This makes me think of the Thor parralell



And the clincher for me is this from the Towers of Midnight Epilogue

Lo, it shall come upon the world that the prison of the Greatest One shall grow weak, like the limbs of those who crafted it. Once again, His glorious cloak shall smother the Pattern of all things, and the Great Lord shall stretch forth His hand to claim what is His. The rebellious nations shall be laid barren, their children caused to weep. There shall be none but Him, and those who have turned their eyes to His majesty.

In that day, when the One-Eyed Fool travels the halls of mourning, and the First Among Vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom to Him who will Destroy, the last days of the Fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come. Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers. And his destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.

And then, shall the Lord of the Evening come. And He shall take our eyes, for our souls shall bow before Him, and He shall take our skin, for our flesh shall serve Him, and He shall take our lips, for only Him will we praise. And the Lord of the Evening shall face the Broken Champion, and shall spill his blood and bring us the Darkness so beautiful. Let the screams begin, O followers of the Shadow. Beg for your destruction!
—from The Prophecies of the Shadow


I think this could be interpreted in numerous ways of course, but one way i see the second part is that on the day Matt travels the halls of ghenji , and that Rand has his moment on DM is the signal of Perrins last days, he is considered fallen due to hoppers death. Then i think he will travel to SG with rand and somehow end up in a battle with Slayer and they shall kill each other (Thor parallel, Two dead men on the rocks surrounded by trollocs) Now the consumed by the midnight towers part is a little harder.. i think it may have something to do with the DO taking a body to right Rand, which if he takes Perrins would certainly bring fear and sorrow and shake Rands will... or perhaps their battle will take part in TaR and they may end up dying there... and that may trigger the fear and sorrow in the hearts of men in seandar and bring the seanchan imperial family to return and “right that which is wrong” (from the glossary) But in any case i believe this shows he will die before the DO is freed for the last battle.


Im sure i remember reading other parts that have made me think he will die but these are all i can find for now so please start the arguments :D

Madgod
11-11-2010, 08:47 PM
Another of Mins veiwings,
An open cavern, gaping like a mouth. Bloodstained rocks. Two dead men on the ground, surrounded by ranks and ranks of Trollocs, a pipe with smoke curling from it.
-Towers of Midnight, For what has been wrought


This viewing is about Rand though, unless you think that Min can see Perrin's future by viewing Rand, which I doubt. Everything else made sense and overall is an interesting theory, but that section just seemed out of place to me.

alleluia_cone
11-11-2010, 08:56 PM
This viewing is about Rand though, unless you think that Min can see Perrin's future by viewing Rand, which I doubt. Everything else made sense and overall is an interesting theory, but that section just seemed out of place to me.

For whatever reason, when I read that vision I immediately thought it referred to Perrin and Matt as the two dead men. Now I'm starting to think maybe Moridin and Rand.

phoenix
11-11-2010, 09:07 PM
This viewing is about Rand though, unless you think that Min can see Perrin's future by viewing Rand, which I doubt. Everything else made sense and overall is an interesting theory, but that section just seemed out of place to me.

That doesn't necessarily mean that one of them is Rand though, Min saw two dead men on the ground, not him, i take it to mean they will die near him or in connection to his actions

Madgod
11-11-2010, 09:20 PM
Maybe, I agree with alleluia_cone though that they are more likely to be Rand and Elan, especially with teh way they are being set up to have epic duel which kills alot of random Trollocs/Light Siders. The other visions at least seem to be associated with Rand at the Last Battle (cavern/bloody rocks) or a peaceful aftermath (pipe). So to me, it seems like those visions are sequential for Rand's future at the Last Battle.

phoenix
11-11-2010, 09:27 PM
Maybe, I agree with alleluia_cone though that they are more likely to be Rand and Elan, especially with teh way they are being set up to have epic duel which kills alot of random Trollocs/Light Siders. The other visions at least seem to be associated with Rand at the Last Battle (cavern/bloody rocks) or a peaceful aftermath (pipe). So to me, it seems like those visions are sequential for Rand's future at the Last Battle.
By all means im not 100% sure on that viewing being related to my theory as they all have so many possibilities (that one does seem quite likely) but i always think its good to look at things from a different perspective than the generally accepted :)

Madgod
11-11-2010, 09:32 PM
By all means im not 100% sure on that viewing being related to my theory as they all have so many possibilities (that one does seem quite likely) but i always think its good to look at things from a different perspective than the generally accepted :)

Oh I quite agree, and like I think I mentioned earlier, I agree with the majority of what you said. I just felt a little argumentative, that's all. Even without that viewing you made a pretty convincing case.

phoenix
11-11-2010, 09:40 PM
Thanks Madgod, i wanted to start up a discussion on this as i havent yet read a theory about Perrin dying and i have thought he would for some time now, though mostly just from a gut feeling.. when i read the prophesy at the end of TofM it just made sense to look at it like that and its nice to see that someone else can see it that way too :D

Ahumm
11-12-2010, 12:08 AM
The Broken Crown refers to something to do with the Saldaean royal line, it comes up from time to time in discussions with Faile and her family. Theories abound about the flowering trees around him it could refer to the apple trees or the rediscovery of the Song the Tinkers refer to all the time (The existence and potential recovery of which is a debate all on its own).

As to the Prophesies of the Shadow, I personally don't believe the Broken Wolf bit refers to Perrin, though I have no idea to whom it would refer. It just feels like it doesn't fit him for some reason.

Mat is Better
11-12-2010, 12:13 AM
As to the Prophesies of the Shadow, I personally don't believe the Broken Wolf bit refers to Perrin, though I have no idea to whom it would refer. It just feels like it doesn't fit him for some reason.

The Two Rivers/Blood of Manatheren?

Uno
11-12-2010, 12:18 AM
Too many dashed wolves in the series. Perrin, Elyas, Hopper, Ituralde, Lan on occasion described as wolfish.

Could be Narg, for all I know. He was of the wolf-goat type, and he got to know death, sure enough, although I'm unclear on exactly why his demise is going to make everyone all depressed.

Belazamon
11-12-2010, 12:21 AM
Could be Narg, for all I know. He was of the wolf-goat type, and he got to know death, sure enough, although I'm unclear on exactly why his demise is going to make everyone all depressed.
Because Narg smart.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:23 AM
Well I'm sure Perrin is going to die, life is generally fatal you know. But yeah, that whole broken crown thing has to be taken care of first. Personally I think Tenobia's shelf life has expired and Perrin and Faile will be co-rulers of Saldaea. That doesn't bode well for extinction any time soon.

Uno
11-12-2010, 12:23 AM
Because Narg smart.

Quite. All of fandom trembles before your fiery intellect, Bela.

Belazamon
11-12-2010, 12:24 AM
Quite. All of fandom trembles before your fiery intellect, Bela.
My fiery intellect tells me you're mocking me.

phoenix
11-12-2010, 03:00 AM
Too many dashed wolves in the series. Perrin, Elyas, Hopper, Ituralde, Lan on occasion described as wolfish.

i think it has to be in reference to a main plotline though as the rest of the prophesy is obviously mentioning major characters...

Well I'm sure Perrin is going to die, life is generally fatal you know. But yeah, that whole broken crown thing has to be taken care of first. Personally I think Tenobia's shelf life has expired and Perrin and Faile will be co-rulers of Saldaea. That doesn't bode well for extinction any time soon.

i believe there was a viewing of Mins that showed Tenobia was to die also, so you could well be right, i still think my theory has a good chance though...

i just like to keep my mind open, and with this sort of conversation someone always brings something to mind that you realize you've forgotten thinking back lol

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 04:17 PM
Mordeth knows!

Mordeth threw back his head and wailed; dust sifted down as the walls trembled. “You are all dead!” he cried. “All dead!” And he leaped up, diving across the room.

The Eye of the World, Chapter 19 'Shadow's Waiting' - Rand point of view; with Mat Cauthon, Perrin next to Rand

Who will get the last laugh in the end?

Mat's died once (TFoH). Check.
Rand's foretold to die flaying Shadowspawn with his Glory at the Last Battle, his Lightning.
And poor Perrin is first foretold to die by Mordeth, of all individuals.

phoenix
11-14-2010, 06:54 PM
i knew i'd read something like that somewhere, thanks Felix, great foreshadowing :)

Belazamon
11-14-2010, 08:39 PM
Mordeth knows!

Who will get the last laugh in the end?
You're missing the most obvious implication of that quote, Felix: that everyone we've been reading about in this series is already a ghost. RJ cleverly misdirected us the whole time - what the main characters see as ghosts are actually glimpses of those who are still alive.


Which, ironically, means Frenzy was right about Moiraine all along.

NaeffOfDreams
11-15-2010, 07:04 PM
Yea, and the Broken Wolf, the one whom Death has known, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.

I read this as Hopper (whom Death got to know in EotW) falling (off the White Tower) and dying again at the hands of Slayer (an agent of the Forsaken [Midnight Towers - see Egwene's Dream about 13 towers starting to fall, one rising back up taller, leaving six standing - Moridin (tallest), Graendal, Moghedien, Cyndane, Mesaana, and Demandred]).

Hopefully my parentheticals made sense.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 07:39 PM
But the very next sentence is And his [i.e. the Broken Wolf's] destruction shall bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall shake their very will itself.The only man who would be affected by Hopper's demise would be Perrin, and if anything it had the opposite effect of "shaking his very will itself." So it doesn't seem to fit.

finn
11-15-2010, 10:26 PM
But the very next sentence is The only man who would be affected by Hopper's demise would be Perrin, and if anything it had the opposite effect of "shaking his very will itself." So it doesn't seem to fit.

Maybe it's simply a declaration of what comes after, another general hint of bad times to come for the World with the Last Battle looming.

Or if we have to be more specific, after Hopper is killed Graendal decides to spring her trap. So maybe it means the Whitecloaks who really were put to the test. And Hopper had originally been killed by the whitecloaks so there's that symmetry again. Hopper's killing was termed inconsequential at Perrin's trial.

Rand al'Fain
11-15-2010, 10:51 PM
I don't know. Isn't one of the Dark One's nicknames/titles "The Father of Lies,"? Taking this into consideration, I can't really say I believe these prophecies.

About the only way I can give real credence to them, would be if Rand failed at Tarmon Gaidon. Almost as if these Dark Prophecies are paralell to the Karaethon Cycle. Basically, it all comes down to how it all plays out for Perrin. If Perrin lives, then the Karaethon Cycle comes true. If he dies, then the Dark Prophecies.

Just my 2 cents.

Grig
11-16-2010, 10:59 AM
Almost as if these Dark Prophecies are paralell to the Karaethon Cycle. Basically, it all comes down to how it all plays out for Perrin. If Perrin lives, then the Karaethon Cycle comes true. If he dies, then the Dark Prophecies.


Ty Margheim on Twitter 8 November 2010:
Are the prophecies competing a la The Belgariad (by David Eddings), or are they complementary?

Brandon:
Not competing like The Belgariad, and certainly not intelligent like in The Belgariad.

Brandon:
Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

^

phoenix
11-16-2010, 04:14 PM
I read this as Hopper (whom Death got to know in EotW) falling (off the White Tower) and dying again at the hands of Slayer (an agent of the Forsaken [Midnight Towers - see Egwene's Dream about 13 towers starting to fall, one rising back up taller, leaving six standing - Moridin (tallest), Graendal, Moghedien, Cyndane, Mesaana, and Demandred]).

Hopefully my parentheticals made sense.

I personally don't think Hopper is that important to be mentioned in a prophesy like this one, at least not to bring fear and sorrow. Also the Towers of Midnight were listed in the glossary as being actual towers in seanchan, which makes this a lot harder to work out of course, though as the rest of the prophesy can be interpreted quite literally i believe that the whole thing should be, and when one looks at it this way it means the towers cant represent the forsaken....

NaeffOfDreams
11-16-2010, 11:10 PM
A literal view would mean that you have some animated towers on the other side of the Aryth consuming people though.

phoenix
11-16-2010, 11:39 PM
A literal view would mean that you have some animated towers on the other side of the Aryth consuming people though.

We are yet to find out the importance of these towers though, in the glossary it says that 'Legend has it that in time of dire need, the (seanchan) imperial family will return to the Towers of Midnight and "Right that which is wrong."' (brackets mine) So who knows how they would do that, there could be some sort of ter'angreal there... maybe even a doorway to the finns... both totally random thoughts i just had this moment... but that said, they must be of some major importance to the story that we don't know yet, so who's to say it cant be taken literally?....

Jonai
11-17-2010, 12:15 AM
My thinking is, the first obvious interpretation that jumps into the collective consciousness of wot fandom is probably wrong. I think Tenobia has been doomed a while, but you might be right Phoenix. We just need to consider all the options and go from there.

phoenix
11-17-2010, 12:25 AM
My thinking is, the first obvious interpretation that jumps into the collective consciousness of wot fandom is probably wrong. I think Tenobia has been doomed a while, but you might be right Phoenix. We just need to consider all the options and go from there.

Yep i definitely agree, gotta look at all perspectives, just look at Mats Ashandarei for example, not many people saw that coming from what we knew, but looking back it all makes sense

Rand al'Fain
11-17-2010, 01:29 AM
^

Just so you know, I have never read that book/series.

Grig
11-17-2010, 10:54 AM
Just so you know, I have never read that book/series.

Good, because the last statement directly contradicts what I was replying to without relying on knowledge of another series (which, as a matter of fact, I am not familiar with either):

Some may be interpreted wrong, others may be recorded wrong, but there is not a this/that nature to them.

I know reading is hard, but please try to make the attempt first before responding snippily. The last statement from Sanderson was the pertinent one, I simply like to quote in full instead of leaving out context when it comes to responses.

Enheduanna
11-17-2010, 03:16 PM
Too many dashed wolves in the series. Perrin, Elyas, Hopper, Ituralde, Lan on occasion described as wolfish.

Could be Narg, for all I know. He was of the wolf-goat type, and he got to know death, sure enough, although I'm unclear on exactly why his demise is going to make everyone all depressed.

I had a feeling that Davram Bashere is also included with these guys, he carries a baton with a wolfhead finial, and Min viewed "something dark" around him.

Rand al'Fain
11-17-2010, 04:22 PM
Good, because the last statement directly contradicts what I was replying to without relying on knowledge of another series (which, as a matter of fact, I am not familiar with either):



I know reading is hard, but please try to make the attempt first before responding snippily. The last statement from Sanderson was the pertinent one, I simply like to quote in full instead of leaving out context when it comes to responses.
:rolleyes:
I got the point of what you were saying and had no intention of it sounding "snippily." I was merely pointing out that I had never read the book/series. Overreact much?

Grig
11-17-2010, 04:49 PM
I got the point of what you were saying and had no intention of it sounding "snippily." I was merely pointing out that I had never read the book/series. Overreact much?

I apologize for assuming you were replying to the content of what I was saying, instead of tossing out personal trivia. All I had to go off of was the text provided, which seemed to miss the point completely when viewed by itself.

morat'corlm
11-17-2010, 05:18 PM
The Broken Wolf could be Lan. He has no lupine iconography I know of, but he's often described as "wolfish" and following Moiraine's death it was often commented on how his eyes were filled with death or some such. He's on a suicidal charge at the moment, and his fall at Tarwin's Gap could very well bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men.

phoenix
11-17-2010, 05:57 PM
The Broken Wolf could be Lan. He has no lupine iconography I know of, but he's often described as "wolfish" and following Moiraine's death it was often commented on how his eyes were filled with death or some such. He's on a suicidal charge at the moment, and his fall at Tarwin's Gap could very well bring fear and sorrow to the hearts of men.

Definitely possible and it makes more sense to me than the Hopper theories, even though theres no direct wolf associations with him. I've always believed he is going to die unfortunately, as much as id love to see him live past TG i think theres just too much to say he wont, whether that has anything to do with this prophesy though will be interesting to see

finn
11-18-2010, 12:13 AM
The main problem with the Hopper theory is the timeline. He's supposed to die on a particular day, probably D-day. Don't think it's Lan though. More likely it's Ituralde who is called The Wolf.