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Frenzy
11-11-2010, 11:12 PM
<rant>

Ok, i finally finished the book, specifically chapters 54-57. And i have one thing to say:

I hope you're all friggin' happy now.

The damsel in the Tower has been rescued by a valiant prince. The man of her dreams hauled her nekkid floating backside out of the monsters' clutches.

blech.

Wrapped in Thom's cloak, she "looked more a woman than Mat remembered" with her "pale skin, flushed cheeks, hair curled and falling naturally around her face."

blarf.

Her eyes were still appraising, but she was "Humbled, cast down. That made her seem stronger."

gag.

She said she had to see Rand, that he will need her help. Ok, that's more in line with her formerly awesome self. A few paragraphs to fill her in on seven books of backstory, then BLAM "Dearest Thom will you marry me?"

alright fine. hanging around nekkid for months while aliens feed off you like sparkly vampires may be enough to excuse a bit of romance. i won't object.

But... "I'll throw away my angreal, which I need to be able to channel enough to matter, if you wish it of me."

What about the last 20 years of single-minded sacrifice and dedication to finding the Dragon Reborn and getting him to the Last Battle?! What about having vital info/help/whatever that the world desperately needs to survive, that Mat had his bloody eye clawed out for?

It doesn't matter if it was Jordan or Sanderson who dreamed up this tripe; they've taken THE best character in this series and turned her into a prize to be won. A damsel to be rescued. A milksop.

But she's back, which is all most everyone else really cared about. Enjoy.

Uno
11-11-2010, 11:27 PM
But she's back, which is all most everyone else really cared about. Enjoy.

Well, I'd rather have had her not come back, but you know that. You'd think one important character might die, but no. Not that we haven't known it was coming for some time.

One person dead, another lost an eye, but these things will happen during romantic rescues, you know. The standards of narrative convention have always been hard on supporting characters. Jain followed the fine old tradition of holding off the pursuit while the others fled. I'd calling it pulling an Ingtar if it weren't for the fact that I've seen it in a bazillion action movies before.

You're sure you're not just bitter about the final demise of your old ghost theory?

Belazamon
11-11-2010, 11:29 PM
You're sure your not just bitter about the final demise of your old ghost theory?
Yeah, for some reason I feel like she's not happy that Moiraine's back. Weird.

Uno
11-11-2010, 11:33 PM
Yeah, for some reason I feel like she's not happy that Moiraine's back. Weird.

I believe you may be correct, but it's hard to say when she's keeping her feelings all bottled up like that.

Frenzy
11-11-2010, 11:34 PM
You're sure your not just bitter about the final demise of your old ghost theory?
heheheh, no. As utterly cool as it would've been to have such a crazyass theory prove to be true, i knew it wouldn't. Like you said, everyone knew she was coming back. i just wish her character wasn't so thoroughly eviscerated during her return.

and i totally can't wait to hear the explanation of the severed warder bond...

Uno
11-11-2010, 11:40 PM
heheheh, no. As utterly cool as it would've been to have such a crazyass theory prove to be true, i knew it wouldn't. Like you said, everyone knew she was coming back. i just wish her character wasn't so thoroughly eviscerated during her return.

and i totally can't wait to hear the explanation of the severed warder bond...

Quite. I have the sneaking suspicion that my Guaire Amalasan theory will not be confirmed, either. It's a hard life, sure enough.

Belazamon
11-11-2010, 11:42 PM
Quite. I have the sneaking suspicion that my Guaire Amalasan theory will not be confirmed, either. It's a hard life, sure enough.
And when aMoL finally confirms that Moridin is Beidomon, I will be vindicated at last.

Uno
11-11-2010, 11:46 PM
And when aMoL finally confirms that Moridin is Beidomon, I will be vindicated at last.

Beidomon is Bayle Domon, who is really Belazamon, the Mighty Seahorse. You of all people ought to know that.

jana
11-11-2010, 11:54 PM
this was good for quite a few lols.

Belazamon
11-12-2010, 12:03 AM
Beidomon is Bayle Domon, who is really Belazamon, the Mighty Seahorse. You of all people ought to know that.
Who else but a Seahorse would be a Betrayer of Hay?

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:04 AM
Frenzy sounds physically ill. lmao. Well Moridin=beidomon would play right into Terez's Moridin Meow Merin theory. Six degrees of Lews Therin...

I don't care, I'm just glad Moir is back. Though I'm not sure why since I didn't even like her til tFoH...

Uno
11-12-2010, 12:06 AM
Who else but a Seahorse would be a Betrayer of Hay?

Yes, it all fits together as neat as can be. The seafolk are all part of it somehow, too. Obviously.

Belazamon
11-12-2010, 12:08 AM
It's intuitively obvious to the most casual observer.

Neilbert
11-12-2010, 12:24 AM
But... "I'll throw away my angreal, which I need to be able to channel enough to matter, if you wish it of me."

I think she knew there was absolutely no chance Thom would take her up on the offer, especially if he actually loved here, therefore she had everything to gain and nothing to lose by making it. She got Thom to accept her as Aes Sedai by offering to surrender her Aes Sedainess to him.

jana
11-12-2010, 12:33 AM
I think she knew there was absolutely no chance Thom would take her up on the offer, especially if he actually loved here, therefore she had everything to gain and nothing to lose by making it. She got Thom to accept her as Aes Sedai by offering to surrender her Aes Sedainess to him.

Ya, I loved that part. Thought it was fine. There was no way he was saying no.

Moiraine was almost exactly as I expected her to be. "Human."

She'll put her armor back on for everyone else (except Rand).

Dewairah
11-12-2010, 12:33 AM
c'monnnn, she just got liberated from a bunch of power-sucking aliens by a man she loves.. she's allowed to be a bit lovey-dovey/damsel-ish for 1 chapter before she gets back down to business.

chillax.

jana
11-12-2010, 12:34 AM
before she gets back down to business.

chillax.

WORD :cool:

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 12:59 AM
well, i'm glad y'all are happy with her hollow gestures of love.

oh, and Dewairah? lovey dovey and damsel are NOT the same things.

jana
11-12-2010, 01:01 AM
well, i'm glad y'all are happy

Well, I'm happy that we're all glad.



Anyhoo, last night I dreamt that I escaped a sul'dam and snuck into a secret upper floor through a hidden elevator. Tommy Lee Jones helped me escape the building, and then my alarm went off.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 01:01 AM
Well, love is just a chemical imbalance, so I'm feeling pretty good about things.

Jokeslayer
11-12-2010, 04:11 AM
But... "I'll throw away my angreal, which I need to be able to channel enough to matter, if you wish it of me."

What about the last 20 years of single-minded sacrifice and dedication to finding the Dragon Reborn and getting him to the Last Battle?! What about having vital info/help/whatever that the world desperately needs to survive, that Mat had his bloody eye clawed out for?

Why would she need the Power to do whatever it is that she's going to do? I presume it has something to do with the answers she got (probably something Rand ahs to do to seal the prison) rather than being Random Channeler No. A Billion.

jana
11-12-2010, 04:23 AM
I presume it has something to do with the answers she got (probably something Rand ahs to do to seal the prison) rather than being Random Channeler No. A Billion.


This is one of the (many) reasons why it doesn't bother me in the slightest. Moiraine's amount of power hasn't mattered since EotW.

Plus, she's going to be even more bad arse now because even with less power she'll still manage to intimidate people. I hope a lot of time is spent on this (but it probably won't be).

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:16 AM
The damsel in the Tower has been rescued by a valiant prince. The man of her dreams hauled her nekkid floating backside out of the monsters' clutches.

blech.Told you so. Nah, nah, nanana!

Wrapped in Thom's cloak, she "looked more a woman than Mat remembered" with her "pale skin, flushed cheeks, hair curled and falling naturally around her face."

blarf.Seems like a description. What is the problem with that?

Her eyes were still appraising, but she was "Humbled, cast down. That made her seem stronger."

gag.The series has always been praised for its portrayal of strong women. Don't you like strong women?

She said she had to see Rand, that he will need her help. Ok, that's more in line with her formerly awesome self. A few paragraphs to fill her in on seven books of backstory, then BLAM "Dearest Thom will you marry me?"

alright fine. hanging around nekkid for months while aliens feed off you like sparkly vampires may be enough to excuse a bit of romance. i won't object.You'd better not object to sparkly vampires, no. We wouldn't want any of those to show up at TG, would we?

But... "I'll throw away my angreal, which I need to be able to channel enough to matter, if you wish it of me."Which, as you may have noticed (or perhaps not), sparked a hasty "no, of course the dress does not make you look fat, dear" from Thom. She was merely testing his love for her.

What about the last 20 years of single-minded sacrifice and dedication to finding the Dragon Reborn and getting him to the Last Battle?! What about having vital info/help/whatever that the world desperately needs to survive, that Mat had his bloody eye clawed out for?Mat? I thought this was about Moiraine. Why should Mat be important?

It doesn't matter if it was Jordan or Sanderson who dreamed up this tripe; they've taken THE best character in this series and turned her into a prize to be won. A damsel to be rescued. A milksop.As I already said: "Told you so. Nah, nah, nanana!"

But she's back, which is all most everyone else really cared about. Enjoy.Thank you for permitting that.

Do you mind if I tell you that I'd been waiting about a decade for this? :D

Jonai
11-12-2010, 05:19 AM
Only a decade? *g*

jana
11-12-2010, 05:20 AM
Do you mind if I tell you that I'd been waiting about a decade for this? :D

for Mo to return or to gloat at frenzy?

David Selig
11-12-2010, 05:38 AM
It's ironic that for all the supposed dominance of women in Randland societies and their constant claims that they don't need the help of men to get the job done, at some point in the series the series pretty much every female characters has had to be saved from captivity by a man in a classic damsel in distress fashion, some more than once. I don't know if this is intended to make the women look bad or Jordan intended it just for the irony.

I really hope the Moiraine's rescue was the last use of the kind of plot in the series, it's really overused and tiresome at this point IMO.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:39 AM
for Mo to return or to gloat at frenzy?Well, I have been telling Frenzy for over 10 years now that Moiraine would return. I don't think I'll give a clearer answer than that, though. Might be bad for my health, or something.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 05:40 AM
If you want irony, you just have to look at the shape of the White tower.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:42 AM
It's ironic that for all the supposed dominance of women in Randland societies and their constant claims that they don't need the help of men to get the job done, at some point in the series the series pretty much every female characters has had to be saved from captivity by a man in a classic damsel in distress fashion, some more than once.Berelain hasn't needed to be saved. Verin hasn't needed to be saved, she dealt with her own problems when needed. Birgitte hasn't needed saving by a man. Elaida doesn't need to be saved; she's fine where she is right now. Moghedien ... well, does Halima count as a man?

jana
11-12-2010, 06:01 AM
Bela

man... I hope she does something heroic. She needs to do more than save Siuan at TG.

David Selig
11-12-2010, 06:04 AM
Come to think of it, Aviendha hasn't been captured either, so I guess she takes the top position of the most important female in the series who hadn't needed to be saved from captivity.

So it will probably happen in the next book, unfortunately.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 06:09 AM
Not quite captivity but Rand saved her from death by over exposure. Far Snows. ^^

David Selig
11-12-2010, 06:22 AM
I forgot that Rand practically resurrected Avi when he balefired Rahvin. So I guess she needed saving by a man too, though not from captivity.

jana
11-12-2010, 06:26 AM
Everyone and their mom has been saved by Mo's channeling.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 06:32 AM
I don't remember any moms being saved...

jana
11-12-2010, 06:33 AM
I don't remember any moms being saved...

/glare

I'm sure she saved lots of moms in the Two Rivers.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 07:02 AM
Well plenty of future mothers at the very least. ;) Think I'm going to go reread the Lanfear fight and her letter to Rand. That was a cool moment.

jana
11-12-2010, 07:20 AM
I'm going to go reread the Lanfear fight and her letter to Rand. That was a cool moment.

I've decided to use this as an excuse to post random Thomoi stuff.


Thom Merrilin stepped forward grandly and held up one empty hand, turning it slowly. Suddenly he gestured with a flourish, and a dagger twirled between his fingers. The hilt slapped into his palm, and, abruptly nonchalant, he began trimming his fingernails.

A low, delighted laugh floated from Moiraine.
Moiraine studied them as she ate. Finally she put her plate aside and patted her lips with a napkin. “I can tell you one cheerful thing. I do not think Thom Merrilin is dead.”
He paused, looking thoughtful. “Moiraine said I was still alive, did she? Is she with you, then?”

Rand shook his head. To his surprise, Thom seemed disappointed.

“Too bad, in a way. She’s a fine woman, even if she is . . . ” He left it unsaid.
“Rand is still well, then?” Thom’s eyes sharpened to almost the keenness Mat remembered. “I am not sure I expected that. Moiraine is still with him, is she? A fine-looking woman. A fine woman, if she were not Aes Sedai. Meddle with that sort, and you get more than your fingers burned.”
Moiraine straightened as if she had a perfect right to be going through the papers scattered on his table and calmly arranged her skirts as she sat on the stool. Now there was a beautiful woman, with every grace a man could want, including laughing at his quips.
“A quiet life would kill you, I think.” Sounding distinctly amused, she busied herself rearranging the folds of her skirt with small, slender hands. He had the impression she was hiding a smile.
“Who’s the letter from, Thom? Another woman you rescued? Or did you leave her where she could get her head cut off?”

“I left her,” Thom said softly. Rising, he walked away without another word.

Terez
11-12-2010, 07:46 AM
I remember when the chapter names came out I tried to pretend like that's all The One Left Behind was about, lest the meaning be too obvious. It was a nice double reference, though.

Caveatar
11-12-2010, 08:47 AM
He got his fingers burned clear up to the elbow this time.

jana
11-12-2010, 08:57 AM
He got his fingers burned clear up to the elbow this time.

Wow, I am slow. I never even thought of that before. That quote is awesome now.

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 09:07 AM
It's ironic that for all the supposed dominance of women in Randland societies and their constant claims that they don't need the help of men to get the job done, at some point in the series the series pretty much every female characters has had to be saved from captivity by a man in a classic damsel in distress fashion, some more than once. I don't know if this is intended to make the women look bad or Jordan intended it just for the irony.

I really hope the Moiraine's rescue was the last use of the kind of plot in the series, it's really overused and tiresome at this point IMO.

Rand has been saved by everyone under the sun. Man and woman.

Mat was saved by Rand twice.

Perrin was saved by Faile.

It's kinda this stories "thing". You're just trying to attribute sexist things that aren't there.

Ishara
11-12-2010, 09:23 AM
I have to tell you, I thought that those scenes were among the worst in the whole book. I actually had to put the book down and take a breather after she proposed to Thom. Blech. It all left a terrible taste in my mouth.

Moiraine's particular brand of awesome is that she is single-minded in her pursuit of Rand's victory. She will stop at nothing, sacrifice anything to ensure that he gets to where he needs to be - understands more than anyone else, what that will mean for him and the price that it will cost for all of them.

Y
Moiraine was almost exactly as I expected her to be. "Human."

She'll put her armor back on for everyone else (except Rand).

1. Gah. Since when does being being "human" equate with turning your back on everything you've stood for, on everything you DIED for? She can still be "human" without being naked for eff's sake! Explain to me why her being naked was a requirement for the 'Finn to drain her of the OP? Yeah, thought so.

2. It's not armour. It's a way of life. Who has time to simper when the survival of their Age is at stake? The whole beauty of Moiraine (and I swear to ignore anyone calling her Mo, Moir, or anything else similarly stupid) is that she recognizes that there is a time and a place for Moiraine the "woman" to exist, and this is not it.

c'monnnn, she just got liberated from a bunch of power-sucking aliens by a man she loves.. she's allowed to be a bit lovey-dovey/damsel-ish for 1 chapter before she gets back down to business.

chillax.

Um, nevermind the fact that she had to be rescued (why, oh, why! couldn't she just stay dead?), how on earth does being bailed out equate with becoming an entirely different person with the backbone of a seahorse (did you see what I did there Uno?)? She's in love with Thom. Fine. I hate it, but fine. She wants to marry Thom? Ugh. Whatever. I'd prefer she at least stick to the fact that there's this pesky little thing called the LAST BATTLE to contend with before she should! Why should she sacrifice everything she is, was, or should be to be with a man who fell in love her as she WAS? What's the point? What was the purpose of making her less-than?


Do you mind if I tell you that I'd been waiting about a decade for this? :D LOL. Deathwish, my friend.

for Mo to return or to gloat at frenzy? Gloat. Definitely gloat.

Look, the fact that she was coming back was inevitable. We've known for years that it was happening. But if you're going to trivialize what may have been the bravest death in the series and make it mean nothing by bringing her back, at least ensure that she's the same person when she comes out. If I'm getting Moiraine back, I want HER back, not some weak-ass, silly, moony, weak replacement. Suian got stilled and had the (fish)guts to keep moving towards the target. Moiraine wants to freaking cuddle? Come ON.

It's like Gandalf saying he'd just like a little nap before arriving at dawn. Forget the fact that this is a female character we're talking about - she is the quintessential, archetypal "wizard" in this story. Now there's no mystery, there's no strength, there's no recognition that there is a greater good to be served and a bigger picture to see. I feel robbed.

Terez
11-12-2010, 09:27 AM
I don't see how she was any different. I also don't see how she turned her back on anything; she made it clear she wants to go straight for Rand. She probably told Thom she would give up the sa'angreal for him knowing that he wouldn't take her up on it, but she's not the first to put love above everything else.

arioch
11-12-2010, 09:36 AM
I don't think she needs a sa'angreal to help guide saidin through Callandor, if she happens to be the 2nd controller in the mini-circle, so there's that.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 09:40 AM
I'm still bothered by the idea that Rand is just gonna stand there while someone else heals the Bore. I want him to go Red Dawn on Shai'tan's booty.

And I'm sure Moiraine will be throwing out "the Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills," and "I'll destroy you myself before I let the Dark One have you" (s) left and right before too much longer.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 09:49 AM
I have to tell you, I thought that those scenes were among the worst in the whole book. I actually had to put the book down and take a breather after she proposed to Thom. Blech. It all left a terrible taste in my mouth.

Moiraine's particular brand of awesome is that she is single-minded in her pursuit of Rand's victory. She will stop at nothing, sacrifice anything to ensure that he gets to where he needs to be - understands more than anyone else, what that will mean for him and the price that it will cost for all of them.Well, perhaps she's marrying Thom because she has to. That may be one of the things she still needs to do.
All those marriages where Rand played the flute while he was on the way to Tear may just have been practice for this.

1. Gah. Since when does being being "human" equate with turning your back on everything you've stood for, on everything you DIED for? She can still be "human" without being naked for eff's sake! Explain to me why her being naked was a requirement for the 'Finn to drain her of the OP? Yeah, thought so.Hygiene. Not letting her have any clothing makes it easier to hose her down once a week.

I'll admit that I'm stretching a bit here, but it does make some sense.


I don't see how she was any different. I also don't see how she turned her back on anything; she made it clear she wants to go straight for Rand. She probably told Thom she would give up the sa'angreal for him knowing that he wouldn't take her up on it, but she's not the first to put love above everything else.Nitpick: it's a semi-sa'angreal.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 09:50 AM
Maximum angreal as it were.

Ishara
11-12-2010, 10:08 AM
I don't see how she was any different. I also don't see how she turned her back on anything; she made it clear she wants to go straight for Rand. She probably told Thom she would give up the sa'angreal for him knowing that he wouldn't take her up on it, but she's not the first to put love above everything else. No, I suppose she's not, but name another in the majors who has - not one that I can think of. (seriously, you're more likely to think of an example than I am!) Suian, waiting. Elayne, planning. Aviendha, moving forward. Egwene, moving forward. Nynaeve, planning. All of them have the great loves of their lives, and see that that love should not stand in the way of the greater good. It may gut them to think that way, but they do.

Well, perhaps she's marrying Thom because she has to. That may be one of the things she still needs to do.
Fine. But the simpering and pandering? I don't buy it!

Look at it this way:

1. We know that Moiraine wasn't stilled. She was drained (eww), but never lost the Source.

2. Consequently, there is no reason not to assume that she retains her connection to the 3 Oaths.

3. She can't make an offer to give something up if she doesn't mean it truly.

4. The fact that she meant it truly, when it could possible mean the end of the freaking world is what I mean when I say she changed. Just because she could make a reasonable assumption that Thom wouldn't say no, doesn't mean that there wasn't the possibility.

5. The REAL Moiraine wouldn't have made the offer. Wouldn't have offered to make herself less-than, for a man, over duty.

WinespringBrother
11-12-2010, 10:30 AM
I'm a big Moiraine fan and I'm not unhappy with the results of the rescue. She isn't the same tough as nails Moiraine that we first met in The Eye of the World, but she didn't just change now either. She started deferring to Rand after her visit to the Rings of Rhuidean, having glimpsed the future. She has flirted with Thom in the past. She actually showed gratitude to Thom and Mat, unlike some people, which I think is one aspect of her that shows how awesome she is. She may know (or thinks she knows) of a happy future from her various trips to vision lands that would occur if the rescue was executed successfully. Why not be happy and live in the moment for a bit?

I do agree that scene had more mush than I had expected, but I can live with it. I mean, if Rand the Bloody Dragon can find room for romance in his life, and Moiraine is all about Rand getting his destiny fulfilled (not to mention helping Rand to not lose his humanity), she can certainly set a good example for him by showing him there are things to live for.

And Moiraine did have a lot of alone time to ponder her past regrets and future hopes. That's got to have an effect on her outlook.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 10:50 AM
Maximum angreal as it were.

Oh good, someone else made the nitpick remark...as I was just about to post it. Its not a sa'angreal...just a really strong angreal.

jana
11-12-2010, 10:52 AM
Alright, this is getting f*ing ridiculous. She's not allowed to marry before the Last Battle? She's got 18 hours stuck in the middle of nowhere. It's as good a time as any. Nothing she did or said has any effect on her ability to help Rand.


And if you think she is going to be acting different than "old Moiraine" around anyone else but the Efielders, you're an idiot.

She's also been through hell for 7 straight months. If you think that would have no effect on a person, especially the day of their escape, you're an idiot.

If you think she'd give up the angreal without knowing Thom wouldn't actually take her up on the offer, you're an idiot. She obviously knows him well enough. It was just a statement of dedication.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 10:55 AM
It's kinda this stories "thing". You're just trying to attribute sexist things that aren't there.
I'm not sure it's quite as benign as you make it out to be. I was a fan of WoT partially because of the strong roles women played, however cliché the "farmboy king" trope may be. After Towers of Midnight I'm getting worried that those roles will once again be eclipsed by the leading men. Now that Perrin has come into his own and IntegRand has found nirvana, all that's left is for Mat to take over the Seanchan because of a stupid decision by Tuon.

We'll see what happens. Elayne is kicking ass without much help, however much people hate her story lines. Still, Mat's Band is going to have to run in and save Caemlyn. She also had to accept Rand's promise about Cairhien, despite trying to hold out and win it on her own merits.

Egwene is solidifying her influence over the monarchs of the world, but judging by all the talk around here her decisions regarding Rand, the Last Battle, and Perrin may be arrogant and short-sighted. Not a huge sexism problem unless one of the male heroes sets her straight.

There's definitely hope for Aviendha, if she doesn't end up subservient to Rand.

Min is Rand's rock, but still a follower.

Moiraine is back, but had to be saved by men (of course). It would have been nice if a woman was involved in the rescue, just to avoid the Damsel syndrome. I was really hoping she would start channeling during those desperate moments, but apparently she had to stay incapacitated long enough for Mat to win.

Cadsuane was banished by somewhat-evil Rand, and now that she's back she is deferential.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 10:57 AM
So...what did Moiraine do with her other angreal anyway? She apparently didnt take it through the doorway with her.


Also, Moiraine obviously meant she'd give up the angreal as she's bound by the 3 Oaths. She stated it as fact...just because she might expect Thom to say "No, dont do it" doesnt change the Oath.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 10:58 AM
Alright, this is getting f*ing ridiculous. She's not allowed to marry before the Last Battle? She's got 18 hours stuck in the middle of nowhere. It's as good a time as any. Nothing she did or said has any effect on her ability to help Rand.


And if you think she is going to be acting different than "old Moiraine" around anyone else but the Efielders, you're an idiot.

She's also been through hell for 7 straight months. If you think that would have no effect on a person, especially the day of their escape, you're an idiot.

If you think she'd give up the angreal without knowing Thom wouldn't actually take her up on the offer, you're an idiot. She obviously knows him well enough. It was just a statement of dedication.
I forgot to add that to my other post. I totally don't see that Moiraine has turned into a milksop. I do think that she would have given up the angreal, just not right away. :) Even when I read it, I assumed she was talking about enjoying life with Thom after everything had been settled.

jana
11-12-2010, 10:58 AM
Also, Moiraine obviously meant she'd give up the angreal as she's bound by the 3 Oaths. She stated it as fact...just because she might expect Thom to say "No, dont do it" doesnt change the Oath.

What's your point?

She could have said she'd cut her foot off to, but that didn't mean she wasn't sure Thom would say no.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 10:59 AM
What's your point?

She could have said she'd cut her foot off to, but that didn't mean she wasn't sure Thom would say no.

That she was telling the truth and would willingly give up the angreal. I dont see how this is really out of character for her.

jana
11-12-2010, 11:02 AM
That she was telling the truth and would willingly give up the angreal. I dont see how this is really out of character for her.

Ok. I will unyell at you now.

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 11:04 AM
No, I suppose she's not, but name another in the majors who has - not one that I can think of. (seriously, you're more likely to think of an example than I am!) Suian, waiting. Elayne, planning. Aviendha, moving forward. Egwene, moving forward. Nynaeve, planning. All of them have the great loves of their lives, and see that that love should not stand in the way of the greater good. It may gut them to think that way, but they do.Perrin? I sort of seem to remember a lot of people whining about how he was doing right that for a mere 17 books or so.
Could be that I'm mistaken, of course.

5. The REAL Moiraine wouldn't have made the offer. Wouldn't have offered to make herself less-than, for a man, over duty.But that simpering might have been precisely what would sway Thom. In that case, she put her duty ahead of her pride, and played the stupid bimbo so as to catch him before he got suspicious.

torquemada
11-12-2010, 11:49 AM
One interesting side effect of milksop Moraine marrying Thom so quickly is that the prophecy has been fulfilled and now she can be killed. Perhaps they had to get this out of the way so Moraine can go back to being a bad ass and save the world yet again at the last battle and die in the process (ya, I don't expect it either, she isn't a red shirt).

One the other hand this just might be another example of characters going completely off the rails. Like Lan ignoring the last battle and going on his attempted emo suicide run. Or Verin somehow being able to cripple the black ajah but not managing to successfully warn people about the giant trolloc army.

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 11:56 AM
Alright, this is getting f*ing ridiculous. She's not allowed to marry before the Last Battle? She's got 18 hours stuck in the middle of nowhere. It's as good a time as any. Nothing she did or said has any effect on her ability to help Rand.


And if you think she is going to be acting different than "old Moiraine" around anyone else but the Efielders, you're an idiot.

She's also been through hell for 7 straight months. If you think that would have no effect on a person, especially the day of their escape, you're an idiot.

If you think she'd give up the angreal without knowing Thom wouldn't actually take her up on the offer, you're an idiot. She obviously knows him well enough. It was just a statement of dedication.

Agreed 100%.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 11:58 AM
Sadly, I agree with Jana. Also, I'm not sure if i'm happy nickpicked before Dav, or to be embarrassed that I'm such a nickpicker. lol

Ishara
11-12-2010, 12:21 PM
Alright, this is getting f*ing ridiculous. She's not allowed to marry before the Last Battle? She's got 18 hours stuck in the middle of nowhere. It's as good a time as any. Nothing she did or said has any effect on her ability to help Rand.


And if you think she is going to be acting different than "old Moiraine" around anyone else but the Efielders, you're an idiot.

She's also been through hell for 7 straight months. If you think that would have no effect on a person, especially the day of their escape, you're an idiot.

If you think she'd give up the angreal without knowing Thom wouldn't actually take her up on the offer, you're an idiot. She obviously knows him well enough. It was just a statement of dedication.
Look, aside from skimming enough to be calling me an idiot - did you READ what I posted? I hate to piss off what is obviously a Moiraine fangirl of epic proportions, but all I'm saying is that for her to use that extra time to cuddle and simper as opposed to getting all the information she can about what happened during her captivity is ludicrous. Nice to know though, that I can count on you for reasoned discussion!

Perrin? I sort of seem to remember a lot of people whining about how he was doing right that for a mere 17 books or so.
Could be that I'm mistaken, of course.

But that simpering might have been precisely what would sway Thom. In that case, she put her duty ahead of her pride, and played the stupid bimbo so as to catch him before he got suspicious.
Good call on Perrin, Gonzo. And see what losing focus got him? A power-wrought weapon...oh, wait. LOL But, the Moiraine we knew gave Thom more credit than to try and manipulate him so sloppily. Their past relationship was one base don respect and recognition - why would that change now? Why should that change now?



One the other hand this just might be another example of characters going completely off the rails. Like Lan ignoring the last battle and going on his attempted emo suicide run. Or Verin somehow being able to cripple the black ajah but not managing to successfully warn people about the giant trolloc army. Hmmm. I wouldn't call Lan's mission ignoring the LB, I'd call it him fighting the LB on his terms. And Verin's letter to Mat - well, I believe it. She couldn't have counted on Mat's ability to over-ride his curiosity. I didn't think he'd last that long!

I just wish that the escape from captivity hadn't sacrificed all of what made Moiraine awesome to happen. Why naked? Why having to be carried like a sack of potatoes? Why not regain consciousness until she left? Why cuddle? Why subserviant? Why not ask for a damn shirt as soon as possible?! Bringing her back from the dead negates her sacrifice. What's the point of paying a price if you know you're going to get it back one day?

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:24 PM
Well as for the nakedness thing, it was Mat's turn to see her in the buff. Perrin had already gotten his eyeful in TDR. Besides which, she's a Cairhienin. Cairhienin, much like British people, get naked on the drop of a hat so it makes total sense.


As for the rest...she was just tortured for 7-8 months and then rescued by a man she loved for years without expressing it openly. I think she's entitled to a couple hours of relaxing with no worries about the world till its time to get back to work.


Moiraine rocks.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:28 PM
Are we sure it was only 7-8 months. It was 17 years by my mark. But disregarding that, time flows differently in parallel worlds. It could have been YEARS. Sadly I know where Emma is coming from. Moiraine's death was so POWERFUL. I've got to admit though, i'm thankful we even get to see the tower sequence. When RJ died I thought WoT was dust. So, THANK YOU, powers that be.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:30 PM
Are we sure it was only 7-8 months. It was 17 years by my mark. But disregarding that, time flows differently in parallel worlds. It could have been YEARS. Sadly I know where Emma is coming from. Moiraine's death was so POWERFUL. I've got to admit though, i'm thankful we even get to see the tower sequence. When RJ died I thought WoT was dust. So, THANK YOU, powers that be.


The best part of it was that it was almost entirely written by RJ and you could tell. Mat was at his finest in there...yelling at them to get on with it already and rip out his eye. Too much awesomeness.

dominominic
11-12-2010, 12:31 PM
Well, love is just a chemical imbalance, so I'm feeling pretty good about things.

Alcohol will correct that chemical imbalance.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:34 PM
The best part of it was that it was almost entirely written by RJ and you could tell. Mat was at his finest in there...yelling at them to get on with it already and rip out his eye. Too much awesomeness.

Agree completely. Love Mat. Love RJ. Love how Mat says he won't do something, and then when he does it, it surpasses all expectations.

jana
11-12-2010, 04:54 PM
Look, aside from skimming enough to be calling me an idiot - did you READ what I posted? I hate to piss off what is obviously a Moiraine fangirl of epic proportions, but all I'm saying is that for her to use that extra time to cuddle and simper as opposed to getting all the information she can about what happened during her captivity is ludicrous. Nice to know though, that I can count on you for reasoned discussion!

I read everything you wrote, and I don't attempt reasoned discussions with people who say I can't shorten a character's name as a joke. You probably hate potter puppet pals because they call Professor Snape "Snapeadoodle," and that's enough to give me goosebumps.


What you're suggesting should have happened is an infodump. Of course she's going to get the information she needs. It's rich that you think she won't. But it doesn't all need to happen on screen. Her "simpering" (which was not what she was doing) will probably last for all of 30 minutes.

Khoram
11-12-2010, 05:35 PM
Why naked?

Why naked? Well, aside from it being Mat's turn to see her naked, the fact that she is in the nude is a symbol of birth/rebirth - she had "died" and is now coming back to life.

Besides, who's ever heard of a child being born fully clothed? Even her being wrapped in Thom's cloak alludes to the idea that she has just been reborn into the land of the living. Her apparent weakness also fits in with the image of her rebirth.

Madgod
11-12-2010, 09:04 PM
Why naked?

Or going with a Gandalf allusion, when Gandalf died he came back into the world naked and was brought to Lothlorien (sp?) like that. It was probably a rebirth-type reference for Gandalf also, but considering how many Gandalf allusions Moiraine has, one more doesn't bother me. In fact that's probably why, with her angreal, Moiraine is even stronger - another reference to Gandalf.

Ishara
11-12-2010, 09:34 PM
I read everything you wrote, and I don't attempt reasoned discussions with people who say I can't shorten a character's name as a joke. You probably hate potter puppet pals because they call Professor Snape "Snapeadoodle," and that's enough to give me goosebumps.


What you're suggesting should have happened is an infodump. Of course she's going to get the information she needs. It's rich that you think she won't. But it doesn't all need to happen on screen. Her "simpering" (which was not what she was doing) will probably last for all of 30 minutes.

LOL- I didn't say you couldn't, I just said I'm more likely to ignore you if you do - clearly I'm not, so I don't see why it's an issue for you. Really, I just feel that it's lazy and disrespectful to the awesome that is (was) Moiraine.

You also misunderstood me (or, I wasn't clear). I wasn't trying to suggest that I needed to see the infodump, and I agree, it would be one - I was simply saying that if I can do without the infodump, I can also do without the simpering (and yes, she was). It was damsel in distress behaviour and I hated it.

jana
11-12-2010, 09:49 PM
I didn't say you couldn't, I just said I'm more likely to ignore you if you do - clearly I'm not, so I don't see why it's an issue for you.

Well, how was I to know whether or not you were ignoring me before I replied? :D

That bit offended me more than anything you said about Moiraine, and I may have replied a tad rashly.

I can also do without the simpering (and yes, she was). It was damsel in distress behaviour and I hated it.

Alrighty.

Terez
11-12-2010, 10:43 PM
No, I suppose she's not, but name another in the majors who has - not one that I can think of. (seriously, you're more likely to think of an example than I am!)
You must have missed all the discussions we had about Perrin in this regard. Not that I would expect you to remember them.

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 11:46 PM
She started deferring to Rand after her visit to the Rings of Rhuidean, having glimpsed the future.
i wouldn't call what she did 'deferring.' She may have bowed, but she didn't break. She didn't deviate from her mission. She did what she had to do to get the job done. The only way she could get Rand to listen to her was to accept his demeaning requirements, so she did it to get him to listen to her and do what needed to be done. The end justified the means.
If you think she'd give up the angreal without knowing Thom wouldn't actually take her up on the offer, you're an idiot. She obviously knows him well enough. It was just a statement of dedication.
"i love you so much my dearest Thom that i'll pretend to lower myself for you so you can magnanimously decline it." That isn't dedication. That's disgusting.
That she was telling the truth and would willingly give up the angreal. I dont see how this is really out of character for her.
She would truthfully, willingly, lower herself to a man who has absolutely nothing to do with her life's work over the last 20 years, and that isn't out of character? i'm sorry but i have to disagree with you on that.
Even when I read it, I assumed she was talking about enjoying life with Thom after everything had been settled.
i could buy that, since Siuan's doing pretty much the same thing, and we had the benefit of seeing that on-screen. But i didn't get that sense from reading Moiraine's scene.
Davian: Well as for the nakedness thing, it was Mat's turn to see her in the buff.
Khoram: Why naked? Well, aside from it being Mat's turn to see her naked...

i know Davian and i know he's saying that to be tongue-in-cheek and not to objectify her. Khoram's new, and i don't know you or your style, so that's your one pass.
Really, I just feel that it's lazy and disrespectful to the awesome that is (was) Moiraine.
Exactly. Somehow Ishy and Semmy and Moggy vs. Mo and Cad, ad nauseum, doesn't have the same punch to it.

The series has always been praised for its portrayal of strong women. Don't you like strong women?
In your world view women are strong when they are humbled and cast down, mouthing meaningless acts of apparent devotion?

that is EXACTLY what is wrong with that entire scene!!! i don't care that she's back. i think she's better dead and the story better for it, but that's just my opinion. But to bring her back in such an offensive manner has, to be honest, put this book on par it not below Crossroads of Twilight for me. Which sucks because there's a lot in this book that i honestly enjoyed.

Terez
11-12-2010, 11:47 PM
Yup, it sucks to be you. And Ishara. LOL. The rest of us loved it, apparently.

Frenzy
11-13-2010, 12:07 AM
Yup, it sucks to be you. And Ishara. LOL. The rest of us loved it, apparently.
and mob rule is always right.

Terez
11-13-2010, 12:13 AM
This isn't about being right or wrong, IMO. But if you're trying to convince the rest of us that Moiraine's character was somehow lessened by this episode, then I doubt you'll have much success. Nothing can cheapen what she did on the docks, so I honestly don't relate to your arguments, and I doubt many will.

ShadowbaneX
11-13-2010, 12:30 AM
This isn't about being right or wrong, IMO. But if you're trying to convince the rest of us that Moiraine's character was somehow lessened by this episode, then I doubt you'll have much success. Nothing can cheapen what she did on the docks, so I honestly don't relate to your arguments, and I doubt many will.
some will at least. There wasn't really much to be done about it though. We've known for a while and suspected for longer that it was going to be a rescue from that Tower. Thom's hand pulling Moiraine's kesiera out of the fire, etc, etc.

I would have preferred if all the lovey dovey type stuff had come after, although, as has been suggested by others, perhaps it was, in some way, to get a new warder out of this. She's likely going to need one in the next few days and weeks and I guess this was the easiest way to do it.

After all this time I don't really think there was a way of getting Moiraine out of the Tower that didn't break her in some way, but she needed to get out and this is how it happened. Not entirely happy with it, especially it being somewhat condensed all together at the end of the book.

jana
11-13-2010, 12:56 AM
"i love you so much my dearest Thom that i'll pretend to lower myself for you so you can magnanimously decline it." That isn't dedication. That's disgusting.

She would truthfully, willingly, lower herself to a man who has absolutely nothing to do with her life's work over the last 20 years, and that isn't out of character? i'm sorry but i have to disagree with you on that.

Some of this comes down to our opinions on what made Moiraine... Moiraine. Post-EotW, it was never Moiraine's One Power usage or One Power strength that made her who she was to me. So I disagree completely with what you are saying here. She didn't lower herself at all, in my opinion. The gesture is her way of saying Thom is more important to her than channeling, and I'm completely fine with it. I don't find it much different than Rand saying he'll cut his arm off before he harms Min.

She's actually going to be even more bad ass now. I'm repeating myself here, but she'll be expected to defer to everyone and to give the angreal to the Tower, and that thought makes me smile because there's no way in hell either of those things will happen. Even her marrying Thom shows defiance. It's against the Blue Ajah's rules, and Moiraine is basically saying "screw them, I do what I want."

Terez
11-13-2010, 01:28 AM
Some of it also comes from an assumption that a strong person must always be strong. I find the notion to be a little bit silly; Moiraine made a sacrifice when she saved Rand from his stupidity - did that lessen Rand's character? - and in order to have a chance to survive, she needed help. The episode was much more about Mat's character than it was about Moiraine's - Moiraine's Moment of Awesome was on the docks, and she probably has more to come, but this was about Mat realizing that it was worth the sacrifice of HIS FREAKING EYE to get her back. Some people bitched about the fact that Moiraine didn't properly thank Mat for it. But the thought never even crossed Mat's mind, because he saw his own sacrifice as thanks for what she did for him. As for her offer to give up her strength in the Power...it's a nice contrast to the women in the series who seem to be a little on the power-hungry side. Egwene has gotten a lot of flak for it, but Elayne really stepped up to the plate and gave her a run for her money in this book.

Isabel
11-13-2010, 02:09 AM
Let me quote from ToM.

Light! She had known what she had to go through , and yet she had still pulled Lanfear into that Ter'angreal? Maybe Mat was not the hero here, and maybe noal was not either.

For me the scenes didn't lessen Moiraine's character. Although I did have to laugh when i read above quote and thought about Frenzy and Ishara.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 03:36 AM
I find the notion to be a little bit silly; Moiraine made a sacrifice when she saved Rand from his stupidity - did that lessen Rand's character? - and in order to have a chance to survive, she needed help.

She saved Rand from an established character flaw. Moiraine's rescue doesn't really seem to do that.

I found myself hoping while reading that Moiraine would be the one to figure out how they were meant to escape (or perhaps to have alreay I figured out - I forget how much she knew about Mat's previous rips to Finland). Mat doing it seemed to cheapen Noal's sacrifice, especially because it happened so fast. To be honest, I didn't like most of the Ghenjei stuff especially Mat's twenty minute speech before jumping out the exit.

jana
11-13-2010, 04:22 AM
I forget how much she knew about Mat's previous rips to Finland

nothing.

Terez
11-13-2010, 04:43 AM
She saved Rand from an established character flaw. Moiraine's rescue doesn't really seem to do that.
She saved Mat from an established character flaw. But again, the rescue was about Mat, not about Moiraine. It was not ever intended to be Moiraine's MoA. Why should it have been?

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 05:39 AM
In your world view women are strong when they are humbled and cast down, mouthing meaningless acts of apparent devotion?I think it is questions like this one for which Americans have the 2nd Amendment.

that is EXACTLY what is wrong with that entire scene!!! i don't care that she's back. i think she's better dead and the story better for it, but that's just my opinion. But to bring her back in such an offensive manner has, to be honest, put this book on par it not below Crossroads of Twilight for me. Which sucks because there's a lot in this book that i honestly enjoyed.Have you ever been tortured for a couple of months non-stop? Or even for one mere week, come to that?

Of course, Moiraine was in shock. She needed time to regain her footing. Heck, with the way she'd floating in the air, she may not have had any footing since they caught her.

And, of course, giving up the angreal almost certainly would not interfere at all with her life's work. Based on how many stronger channelers there are around, I do not think that it will be Moiraine's channeling which is needed to help Rand. So even if Thom had been fool enough to ask for it, she could still have done what was necessary afterward.

Finally: with how often Moiraine failed to give information to others, I would expect her to be fully capable of acting without knowledge herself. :p

David Selig
11-13-2010, 06:10 AM
I would've prefered if Moiraine would've stayed dead for many reasons, but I don't see a problem with the way she behaved after coming out of the Tower of Ghendjey. She knew Thom is not an idiot and would be reasonable enough not to make her throw away a powerful angreal on the eve of the Last Battle. Her offer to throw the angreal away was nothing more than a courtesy to him.

She spents months being tortured, of course she'd be somewhat shaken up. If she had reverted right back to the totally calm and tough as nails Moiraine as if nothing happened, that would've felt fake to me.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 06:58 AM
She saved Mat from an established character flaw.

I don't really see what you're saying here.

But again, the rescue was about Mat, not about Moiraine. It was not ever intended to be Moiraine's MoA. Why should it have been?

I would have liked her to be less of a passenger. My other complaints, it's about how I felt they diminished Mat a little; it wasn't about Moiraine but she was there and had the best chance to do what I would have liked to see done. Doesn't really matter though.

Terez
11-13-2010, 07:07 AM
I don't really see what you're saying here.
I'm saying that she taught him a lesson, though it was somewhat unintentional.

I would have liked her to be less of a passenger.
Why? What's wrong with being a passenger every now and then? Why can it happen to multiple other characters and multiple times in the story, but not Moiraine? Why should we have expected her to be in fighting form?

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 08:12 AM
Why? What's wrong with being a passenger every now and then? Why can it happen to multiple other characters and multiple times in the story, but not Moiraine? Why should we have expected her to be in fighting form?

I expect my answer is different from the one you'd get from, say, Frenzy. But for me, there was a lot of build-up to that scene - it's been a lot of books and a lot of real-time in the making, and in the end I was let down by it. I know luck is Mat's thing, but the way he used it to navigate through the tower? Blahhh. Then they rescue Moiraine - well, yeah, that's what we expected. Then the leaving the tower, which was the lamest part of all. Why was Moiraine reduced to helplessness, having to be carried out of the Tower? I wasn't expecting her to blast the hell out of everything two secoinds after being rescued, but I do feel that pre-capture Moiraine would have been expected to do something. Which brings me to my biggest complaint. I admit to only having read this part once, very late at night, so I may have missed something, but as I recall Noal makes his sacrifice and four seconds later Mat, who has had ample time to think about this stuff before now, figures out the way out. He didn't even use his shitty luckpower to accidentally stab the wall. It cheapened Noal's sacrifice (compare it to Ingtar's sacrifice, which was very similar and way more awesome) by making it unnecessary. However, had Moiraine been the one to figure it out, using the information she only just got from Mat, now Noal's sacrifice makes sense, Moiraine isn't a passenger and Mat is not a tool for not planning this shit out. Although I probably would have hated this all less if Mat hasn't abused the hell out of Talking Is A Free Action all the way through the tower.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 08:22 AM
But Mat only figured it out after they reached the room he was aiming for. And he couldn't reach that room without the sacrifice because there were too many snakes in front of it.

As for why Moiraine did not do anything while they were carrying her away: I would guess that was the same reason why she did not do something while she was held, which was the same reason why Lanfear hadn't butchered the lot of them either: they stopped her from being effective. Only when she was outside the tower, and thus outside the influence of her captors, did she regain a real ability to act.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 08:25 AM
But Mat only figured it out after they reached the room he was aiming for. And he couldn't reach that room without the sacrifice because there were too many snakes in front of it.

And what was special about that room that helped him to figure it out?

NOTHING

skaywalker
11-13-2010, 08:39 AM
But why do you want something soooo special? Mat's original plan always was to rely on his luck in finding the door from which they entered. Then when the snakes blocked his way, he changed the plan and went for the red door ter'angreal. And when that plan also failed, only then he gave it a serious thought "how exactly did he escape last time". Why should he think about his spear before that? All of us readers couldn't figure its exact purpose for years, then I feel it's natural for Mat also not to figure it out for the year he's been carrying it.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 08:41 AM
See below.There were the remnants of the disassembled red stone doorway. Which showed that they couldn't use that to get out. (Mat couldn't have used it anyway, I think, which may be one of the reasons why it had been taken apart.)
It was the fact that this was so clearly a dead end which made Mat sit and think. And, of course, Noal's sacrifice gave him time to do so.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 09:01 AM
But why do you want something soooo special? Mat's original plan always was to rely on his luck in finding the door from which they entered. Then when the snakes blocked his way, he changed the plan and went for the red door ter'angreal. And when that plan also failed, only then he gave it a serious thought "how exactly did he escape last time". Why should he think about his spear before that? All of us readers couldn't figure its exact purpose for years, then I feel it's natural for Mat also not to figure it out for the year he's been carrying it.

Relying on Mat's luck is so horrifyingly dumb (not from his POV, but in general). And fair enought that we couldn't figure it out so maybe Mat shouldn't either, except when he did, it was in about four seconds. The whole thing was just silly and contrived.

There were the remnants of the disassembled red stone doorway. Which showed that they couldn't use that to get out. (Mat couldn't have used it anyway, I think, which may be one of the reasons why it had been taken apart.)
It was the fact that this was so clearly a dead end which made Mat sit and think. And, of course, Noal's sacrifice gave him time to do so.

The bold part makes no sense - who are you saying took it apart? If it's some part of the whole luck/ta'veren thing, that doesn't make it better. And why wouldn't he have thought about this before? Or did none of his old memories include making a backup plan? Most of the time he doesn't act like a moron because of the superluck, the luck just helps.

Terez
11-13-2010, 09:26 AM
BTW, it's not the first time someone has sacrificed their life to save people only to have Mat figure out a better idea a few minutes later.

Tower of Ghanja
11-13-2010, 10:13 AM
First, I get why some would be put off by the "damsel in distress" thing.

But I honestly don't think this is a "weak naked babe in need of saving" trope.

I don't think Rand was disempowered when he needed to be saved from a box - neither does this scene lessen Moraine.

As to being naked, well, if the story had dwelt on that more I could see an issue, but it was very matter of fact - the Finns had her naked and contained, being drained of power. Think about what that would actually be like for Moraine - very much an Aes Sedai nightmare.

So yeah, I could see her needing some time to gather her thoughts when she is released from that.

And when she does gather her thoughts, I think it's good that she's not the old "took you long enough there's dirt on your face we must be going" Moraine. She actually thanks and is grateful to Thom and Mat. She lets her real feelings for Thom come out.

She didn't know that she would ever see Thom again, or if they would survive. I think one night of smooches is called for.

And at the risk of sounding like a greeting card, power is what led Rand up that mountain - love is what brought him back. Yay Thom/Moraine.

Neilbert
11-13-2010, 10:34 AM
Some people bitched about the fact that Moiraine didn't properly thank Mat for it.

But she did... or at least was warming up to it and Mat immediately stepped in and said "forget it we're even".

What did people expect? A hero's grilled cheese?

Tarion
11-13-2010, 11:29 AM
Its amazing how different people can take the same scenes and take so many different things from it.

Firstly, knowing that she was alive and being tortured makes her sacrifice on the docks greater, in my mind. We've known Moiraine was willing to sacrifice her life for her cause since probably book 1. This is much more than that.

Secondly, I'm surprised no-one can justify her nudity. If nothing else, it adds to her torture. Nudity makes people feel vulnerable, enhancing the fear. For Moiraine, a Cairhienen, nudity has the potential to be even more uncomfortable. As the testing for Aes Sedai proves, they do still feel their emotions, they just control them. Anything the Finns can do to make her more uncomfortable gives them more feeding. And that's putting aside the idea that they raped her.

I'm also not seeing the hatred for her offer to give up her angreal for Thom. Remember, she's seen her future(s) and probably has vital information on the Last Battle. There's a good chance that she won't need her superangreal. It doesn't imply anything about her resolve to fight in the Last Battle. The end is in sight now. Marrying Thom doesn't cost her anything. He knows what she's doing and shares the cause. Nothing she's done (or offered to do) indicates a weakening of her resolve, IMO.

Tamyrlin
11-13-2010, 11:35 AM
About the nudity, I'm sure it added to the entire experience for the Finns (plus, I'm sure one of the Finns was like, "stupid girl, didn't ask for leavetaking, nor did you ask to keep your dress, my girlfriend will be soooo happy"), but it wouldn't hurt to ask the question.

About Moiraine out of the tower, while I understand Frenzy and Ishara are not very happy, I get the distinct feeling this is how RJ meant for that scene to occur, so I'm dealing with it. Moiraine saw her futures, so for me there are two possibilities: she wasn't seriously considering giving up the one power but she wanted Thom to know that she was ready to devote the rest of her life to their relationship knowing of his distinct dislike for the WT OR the futures she saw showed her that channeling was not an important part of her life, which would suggest to me that her part to play in the Last Battle is one of influence and information, not channeling.

Crispin's Crispian
11-13-2010, 11:49 AM
She spents months being tortured, of course she'd be somewhat shaken up. If she had reverted right back to the totally calm and tough as nails Moiraine as if nothing happened, that would've felt fake to me. 100xthis.

Look at it this way. If she had come back completely awesome and restored to fighting shape with no discernable change to her personality, it would have cheapened her death even more.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 12:22 PM
The bold part makes no sense - who are you saying took it apart? If it's some part of the whole luck/ta'veren thing, that doesn't make it better. And why wouldn't he have thought about this before? Or did none of his old memories include making a backup plan? Most of the time he doesn't act like a moron because of the superluck, the luck just helps.I think that the *finn took it apart, so that Thom wouldn't be able to leave through that doorway.
Come to think of it: Moiraine had also been through it, when they first saw it in Tear, so she could not have left through that one either.

And from what I gathered, Mat had been planning to leave through the same opening they used to get in. But they did not find that room again, so they could not do that.
Not knowing any other back doors to a place like that is not really bad planning, I would say.

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 01:21 PM
100xthis.

Look at it this way. If she had come back completely awesome and restored to fighting shape with no discernable change to her personality, it would have cheapened her death even more.

What are you talking about? Look at Rand; sure, he was only tortured for a couple of days by the Aes Sedai, but when he got free he was completely norm . . . oh, wait . . .

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 01:28 PM
And from what I gathered, Mat had been planning to leave through the same opening they used to get in. But they did not find that room again, so they could not do that.
Not knowing any other back doors to a place like that is not really bad planning, I would say.

I may have forgotten this (I did say it was likely I would do that). If the original opening was Plan A and the doorway Plan B (or even the other way around) this would go some way to mollifying my objections. Though I'm still unhappy with the way it was plotted (presumably by RJ)

What are you talking about? Look at Rand; sure, he was only tortured for a couple of days by the Aes Sedai, but when he got free he was completely norm . . . oh, wait . . .

This would be the same Rand who, in the course of his rescue, did absolutely nothing helpfu... oh, wait...

Servus Christi
11-13-2010, 01:55 PM
I'm a little disappointed to find out that some people in this thread actually believe strength in the Power equates with strength of character. Setalle is a strong woman, arguably the strongest in the series (she survived being burned out). She cannot channel a lick. Nynaeve is a very powerful channeller. But where has her strength of character ever really been connected with her strength in the Power?

Mo' offered to give up her angreal for Thom. She would have done so for him.. I don't think it was a gamble, I think she honestly doesn't care either way because she understands she doesn't need to be a capable channeller. She would not have been lowering herself for Thom because her strength in the Power does not define who she is.

If a woman is the CEO of a multinational company, bringing in thousands a year and so on, it does not automatically maker her a stronger woman than a mother of 5 children in some Texan backwater. Strength of character is not a material thing.

Oh and, the Power will have basically nothing to do with the Sealing of the Dark One's Prison.

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 03:41 PM
I'm a little disappointed to find out that some people in this thread actually believe strength in the Power equates with strength of character.

Yeah, seriously, what type of organization would rank their members that way? . . . Oh, wait . . .

dpt24
11-13-2010, 06:08 PM
I don't get the problem with the Moraine scene. She's saved the boys repeatedly, and all of the women in the series have done plently of things on their own and accomplished major feats so I'm not sure I see any issues with all the women just being "support" players. I mean, I guess you could say everyone's a "support" to Rand...

David Selig
11-13-2010, 06:38 PM
Yeah, seriously, what type of organization would rank their members that way? . . . Oh, wait . . .
LOL.

I am wondering whether saving the Dragon Reborn from death many times can make up for being weak in the Power in the eyes of the other Aes Sedai. Probably not, they have to stick to their ridiculous tradition after all and they will probably try to treat Moiraine with no respect. This should be fun...

Come to think of it, if she wears the angreal secretly, would the other female channellers realise that or will they just consider her to be really strong in the power? Could she use this trick not to lose her standing among the Aes Sedai?

Frenzy
11-13-2010, 06:38 PM
Have you ever been tortured for a couple of months non-stop? Or even for one mere week, come to that?
depends on how you define torture, but that's a different thread.
I get the distinct feeling this is how RJ meant for that scene to occur, so I'm dealing with it.
Whether Jordan or Sanderson wrote is irrelevent. It's the concepts behind the scene i object to, not who wrote them.

Question: why did Mat do it?

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 06:41 PM
About Moiraine out of the tower, while I understand Frenzy and Ishara are not very happy, I get the distinct feeling this is how RJ meant for that scene to occurI concur with this while fully understanding where Frenzy and Ishara are coming from. Honestly, after 10,000 pages of weird and in their own way quite old-fashioned gender relations, this shouldn't be coming as a surprise.

jana
11-13-2010, 09:07 PM
This should be fun...

Could she use this trick not to lose her standing among the Aes Sedai?


I don't think she will, because it will be so much more fun that she won't need to. Like I've said a few times, I really hope we see a tiny bit of this. It's the Last Battle, so I don't expect to see the same amount of time as was spent on Siuan's reduction in the Power, but I want a little. I want to see a snooty Aes Sedai or two thinking they can treat Moiraine as lower now, because they are definitely not going to get much headway :). Maybe Lelaine will bump into her.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 09:17 PM
Could she use this trick not to lose her standing among the Aes Sedai?Unfortunately not, unless she embraces saidar all the time, since saidar-users can sense the strength of each other without holding the Source.

It will be interesting to see the interactions with Nynaeve (who's come around to seeing her as a positive force and couldn't care less about strength), Cadsuane (who couldn't care less about strength but thinks she was a negative force), and Egwene (who respected her but now respects Aes Sedai propriety more and will probably try to treat her like a gai'shain), though.

jana
11-13-2010, 09:27 PM
Unfortunately not, unless she embraces saidar all the time, since saidar-users can sense the strength of each other without holding the Source.

It will be interesting to see the interactions with Nynaeve (who's come around to seeing her as a positive force and couldn't care less about strength), Cadsuane (who couldn't care less about strength but thinks she was a negative force), and Egwene (who respected her but now respects Aes Sedai propriety more and will probably try to treat her like a gai'shain), though.

It saddened me a bit that Cadsuane was in the room when Rand was talking about how well he was raised, because this will make her seeing Moiraine again a bit less interesting. She knows how highly he regards her. I'm sure it will still be fun though.

I've seen a few people upset that Nynaeve suddenly likes Moiraine, but I haven't seen it as sudden at all. Once Moiraine died Nynaeve's anger at her faded a lot, and she had to have put the pieces together and figured out that Moiraine passed the bond to Myrelle specifically so Lan could be with Nynaeve. There was never any question that Nynaeve would be happy to see her back.

As for Egwene, there's a lot of respect there. I don't see that happening.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 04:52 AM
depends on how you define torture, but that's a different thread.To use a hypothetical example which may be a near enough analogy:
Have your children waterboarded for hours on end, day after day, while you can watch and listen but can't do anything about it. Have this done by a bunch of goons who don't want any information or something like that out of you, but just enjoy your suffering. Know that even if you and your family are eventually rescued, the ones who did it will not be punished in any way, shape or form. Finally, know that your children will never recover mentally from this.
That kind of torture.

Note: I used "children" for "ability to channel". That may or may not be a wholly accurate analogy. I don't know, and I do not think it would be ethical to do experiments to settle this question, either. Interesting, perhaps, but definitely not ethical. How do you set up a double blind experiment on this?

As for Egwene, there's a lot of respect there. I don't see that happening.You've never read any scene with Egwene in it, have you?

jana
11-14-2010, 04:55 AM
You've never read any scene with Egwene in it, have you?

Quit trying to make the thread intolerable :)

David Selig
11-14-2010, 05:31 AM
Unfortunately not, unless she embraces saidar all the time, since saidar-users can sense the strength of each other without holding the Source.

Oh yes, I forgot about that. I didn't think she would try it anyway, just curious whether it would work.

I certainly would love to see someone like Lelaine trying to treat Moiraine like dirt because she's weak in the Power now. Unless Moiraine decides to stick with the Aes Sedai tradition in this respect, that would be really annoying, but I don't think she will. She has more than enough strength of character to set anyone challenging her straight and she has no patience for such power games at the eve of the Last Battle.

Spidy
11-14-2010, 06:18 AM
Now I know TL is alive and well. We have making of a Flame war here.

Anything I say has to be prefaced by the fact that the Intrepid Gazette Reporter is a male, and I know squat about what makes women really tick.

Moiraine Seadi has been through two sets of rings, two doors to Finnland with both sets of rules (as per the treaty applying), regardless of melting structures.

The Sop Set think that being naked and saying OOO'whOOO Tommy save me is a back down on the ir superior I am women hear me roar mindset. To me it the opposite. Through patience, bravery, and forewarning, M has allowed he Light to have a chance at winning, a chance mind you, not an absolute win.

M has done her thing and now she wants to enjoy the rest, a bonk or two, or more. The bond is gone, and therefore, no responsibility for Lan as well, emotionally and physicaly. But she also is not done. (and all her weaves in the books other than healing have always been subtle ones).

Get off the hate wagon (leave it for Eg and El, and if people don't let up on those two, SGG may have to come real life), it is upward and onward with how she now can help help guide a win, a la Siuan Sanche. Now there is two peas in a pod if I ever saw it. Think about it.

Jokeslayer
11-14-2010, 06:48 AM
Interesting, perhaps, but definitely not ethical. How do you set up a double blind experiment on this?

I think it starts when Frenzy pokes both your eyes out with a stick.

jana
11-14-2010, 07:00 AM
I think it starts when Frenzy pokes both your eyes out with a stick.

I lol'd.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 07:22 AM
(and all her weaves in the books other than healing have always been subtle ones).She subtly torched dozens of Trollocs while running through Emond's Field. She subtly sank a ferry. She subtly caused an earthquake and a wall of fire to slow down pursuit. She subtly intimidated a bunch of Whitecloaks by stepping over the Baerlon town wall. She subtly balefired Be'lal. Yes, I guess you're right.

I think it starts when Frenzy pokes both your eyes out with a stick.Which would be unethical, as I already indicated. So that would rule out this experiment, at least until this problem is solved.

Jonai
11-14-2010, 07:42 AM
She subtly torched dozens of Trollocs while running through Emond's Field. She subtly sank a ferry. She subtly caused an earthquake and a wall of fire to slow down pursuit. She subtly intimidated a bunch of Whitecloaks by stepping over the Baerlon town wall. She subtly balefired Be'lal. Yes, I guess you're right.


The ball lightning out of a clear sky and the FUBAR of the Shienaran Waygate was subtle too.

lollol. Guys stop making me lol. Not to worry I've got plenty of hate for Eg and El saved up. Not that it matters to me how Moiraine gets rescued.

I think the March 2012 at the earliest // christmas 2012 at the latest aMoL wait qualifies as torture.

Khoram
11-14-2010, 12:08 PM
i know Davian and i know he's saying that to be tongue-in-cheek and not to objectify her. Khoram's new, and i don't know you or your style, so that's your one pass.

Lol, I wasn't trying to objectify her. I was trying to play along with what Davian said. Maybe I should have tried to make that clearer.

Seriously, though, I hold to my rebirth theory for the reason of why she was naked. It's the symbolism of the event that needed to be more apparent.

Davian93
11-14-2010, 05:57 PM
Lol, I wasn't trying to objectify her. I was trying to play along with what Davian said. Maybe I should have tried to make that clearer.

Seriously, though, I hold to my rebirth theory for the reason of why she was naked. It's the symbolism of the event that needed to be more apparent.

Perhaps the Finn merely enjoyed humiliating their prisoner and making her feel that much more hopeless.

Khoram
11-14-2010, 06:01 PM
Perhaps the Finn merely enjoyed humiliating their prisoner and making her feel that much more hopeless.

Which is always a practical view.

If it were for this reason, and this reason alone, I would be extremely upset. It doesn't have the same ring to it as "Moiraine's naked because she is figuratively reborn into the world, and is meant to symbolize her vulnerability at the time of the birth".

Now, the question is: Did Lanfear go through the same or similar treatment, if for a shorter time?

jana
11-14-2010, 06:52 PM
Now, the question is: Did Lanfear go through the same or similar treatment, if for a shorter time?

They made her wear a plaid track suit and glued pom poms to her hands.

Khoram
11-14-2010, 07:04 PM
They made her wear a plaid track suit and glued pom poms to her hands.

This just made my day. Thank you.

I laughed so hard when I read this that I got weird looks from my family members.

How demeaning it would be for Lanfear to actually wear something like this! The ultimate punishment for one such as her.

Caveatar
11-14-2010, 07:10 PM
They made her wear a plaid track suit and glued pom poms to her hands.

lol
Shouldn't Rand hear a dream voice or something telling him, "Save the Cheerleader, Save the World?" :)

Dewairah
11-14-2010, 07:45 PM
Look, the fact that she was coming back was inevitable. We've known for years that it was happening. But if you're going to trivialize what may have been the bravest death in the series and make it mean nothing by bringing her back, at least ensure that she's the same person when she comes out.

the vast majority of people who go through REAL near-death experiences are inevitably changed, often in the most profound ways.

How often do you hear about the drink driver who crashed and lived and becomes an outspoken AA's advocate

or (insert any countless number of examples here)

Its not unreasonable to expect that someone who has devoted X amount of their life to 1 thing and almost died because of it to have some of their immediate (or even longterm) priorites change once they're back to good health (back in the same dimension of reality etc).

I, and most other rational people, are sure that moiraine will want to continue her struggle against the shadow, but just like anyone who has spent the last 20 years doing something and almost died because of it, she wants to get some of her other wants and needs taken care of before she devotes the rest of her potentially-very -short life back to that goal.

I.e the poor woman spent 20years of her life not living for herself, but living as for someone else (white tower + rand) and she almost died... so what if she wnats to be a woman and get married and have 5 minutes of femininity on the page.

Infact, no one would blame her at this point, if she didnt want to take the front-leading role she played previously now that there are thousands of other aes sedai, ashaman, kings, queens, armies supporting Rand. She might be quite happy to marry and live a quiet life now or take a 2nd tear role in Rand Co. And if thats what she wants? good for her. she earned it.

:D

FollowYourMuse
11-14-2010, 07:59 PM
Mo' offered to give up her angreal for Thom. She would have done so for him.. I don't think it was a gamble, I think she honestly doesn't care either way because she understands she doesn't need to be a capable channeller. She would not have been lowering herself for Thom because her strength in the Power does not define who she is.


I agree with this, Being that Moiraine just spent months being drained of her power, not knowing if she would be rescued or if she would have any power left when she was her realization that the One Power was not the most important thing to her is very much in charachter, it has never been channeling that has defined Moiraine.

Brita
11-14-2010, 09:59 PM
I am conflicted with the Moiraine Rescue.

I really did expect her to take a more active role, at least that is what my imagination laid out for me, and I was disappointed that she was completely out of commission for the whole escape.

I agree there there is a very common damsel in distress theme here- but it doesn't really bother me. I don't know, Moiraine being naked- meh, it wasn't dwelt on in detail, and we didn't get any disturbing snakes rising from the rescuers trousers, if you know what I'm saying, so it is no big deal for me. It wasn't sexualized imho. I like the re-birth analogy that was mentioned. It seems very fitting.

As for her demeanor when she left- women don't always have to be fierce and hard to be strong- just like men don't always have to be fierce and hard to be strong. Women, men, people are allowed to be soft and vulnerable without it meaning they are diminished and considered weak for it. Indeed, those that are able to soft and vulnerable are often the strongest of all. This is growth in her character. Being humbled is not automatically a sign of weakness. Rand's demeanor was significantly humbled as well in this book, and no one is accusing his character of "selling out".

So, I was disappointed, just because my expectations were a off- but I am not at all offended as a female.

And Frenzy and Ishara, the proof will be in the pudding. We will see how she is in the next book, and I have a feeling we won't be disappointed.

Ishara
11-14-2010, 10:14 PM
Why? What's wrong with being a passenger every now and then? Why can it happen to multiple other characters and multiple times in the story, but not Moiraine? Why should we have expected her to be in fighting form?

I guess for me the difficulty is not with her being a passenger, it's with what kind of passenger she was. It's how she dealt with the driver after the trip was over. No, that's probably taking the metaphor a bit too far.

First, I get why some would be put off by the "damsel in distress" thing.

But I honestly don't think this is a "weak naked babe in need of saving" trope.

I don't think Rand was disempowered when he needed to be saved from a box - neither does this scene lessen Moraine.

...

And at the risk of sounding like a greeting card, power is what led Rand up that mountain - love is what brought him back. Yay Thom/Moraine.

Okay, first to be positive: I loved the greeting card. Made me lol.

Second, the big difference for me is that it's not the punishment that's disempowering. It's the fact that the scenarios were so different that they are almost incomparable. Despite needing to be rescued, Rand took advantage of the event and made shit happen to help himself and Min. He wasn't waiting around to wait for help (but being bound by the 'Finn could be unpreventable, and I'm willing to let that one slide). Secondly, once rescued, Rand doesn't immediately forswear dignity and character. He does what needs to be done.

I'm NOT saying that she had to be "hard as nails" Moiraine. I am saying that simpering to Thom about how he's her dearest was totally out of character for me, and far more damaging than elaborate backstories ever could have been.

I don't care who wrote it, and I really don't care if it had been planned for years or not - I hate the way it went down, and I'm sincerely hoping that Brita's right, and she goes back to being more awesome and less Thera-like.


Get off the hate wagon (leave it for Eg and El, and if people don't let up on those two, SGG may have to come real life), it is upward and onward with how she now can help help guide a win, a la Siuan Sanche. Now there is two peas in a pod if I ever saw it. Think about it.

No, that's the problem Spidy. Siuan picked herself up, dusted herself off and kept moving forward. Moiraine has officially swooned.

Dewairah
11-14-2010, 10:35 PM
And Frenzy and Ishara, the proof will be in the pudding. We will see how she is in the next book, and I have a feeling we won't be disappointed.

You wont be.

Matt gave up half the light of the world to save the world.

Therefore moiraine must do something that is totally and necessarily kickass - to save the world - in the next book

RAFO :)

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 04:04 AM
I'm NOT saying that she had to be "hard as nails" Moiraine. I am saying that simpering to Thom about how he's her dearest was totally out of character for me, and far more damaging than elaborate backstories ever could have been.For a long time (months, years, hours, whatever period passed there) she had had two possible futures:
1. Die there, after having been stripped of all her power.
2. Be rescued by Thom (and Mat, and some other bloke, but they weren't really important to her) and then live happily ever after with the man she loves.

Considering that, I would expect that if she did manage to have any hopeful thoughts, they were of "her precious" ... ehr ... "her dearest".

Besides, it's not exactly as if she is really experienced when it comes to romance. So having her sound like a love sick teenager is not unreasonable.

Tarion
11-15-2010, 06:17 AM
Despite needing to be rescued, Rand took advantage of the event and made shit happen to help himself and Min. He wasn't waiting around to wait for help (but being bound by the 'Finn could be unpreventable, and I'm willing to let that one slide).I think categorising her as passive in her escape is completely wrong.

She organised the team to save her. By giving Thom that letter and telling him when to reveal it to Mat, she set in motion the events that saved her controlling both who would come to the tower and when. What was it Birgitte said, one in a thousand odds?

Davian93
11-15-2010, 07:08 AM
I am conflicted with the Moiraine Rescue.

I really did expect her to take a more active role, at least that is what my imagination laid out for me, and I was disappointed that she was completely out of commission for the whole escape.

I agree there there is a very common damsel in distress theme here- but it doesn't really bother me. I don't know, Moiraine being naked- meh, it wasn't dwelt on in detail, and we didn't get any disturbing snakes rising from the rescuers trousers, if you know what I'm saying, so it is no big deal for me. It wasn't sexualized imho. I like the re-birth analogy that was mentioned. It seems very fitting.

As for her demeanor when she left- women don't always have to be fierce and hard to be strong- just like men don't always have to be fierce and hard to be strong. Women, men, people are allowed to be soft and vulnerable without it meaning they are diminished and considered weak for it. Indeed, those that are able to soft and vulnerable are often the strongest of all. This is growth in her character. Being humbled is not automatically a sign of weakness. Rand's demeanor was significantly humbled as well in this book, and no one is accusing his character of "selling out".

So, I was disappointed, just because my expectations were a off- but I am not at all offended as a female.

And Frenzy and Ishara, the proof will be in the pudding. We will see how she is in the next book, and I have a feeling we won't be disappointed.


Well considering the prologue of aMoL is tentatively titled "Moiraine Makes Thom a Sandwich"...I think some will be disappointed. Unless of course its a grilled cheese...and then the circle will be complete.

jana
11-15-2010, 07:12 AM
"Moiraine Makes Thom a Sandwich"...

I don't know how I went this long without thinking about what their home life would be like. I'm laughing now.


I've decided they'll never have a home. They'll just make lots of gleeman babies and then be like the Von Trapp family, only they're travelling all the time and the nazis aren't trying to kill them.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 07:16 AM
I don't know how I went this long without thinking about what their home life would be like. I'm laughing now.


I've decided they'll never have a home. They'll just make lots of gleeman babies and then be like the Von Trapp family, only they're travelling all the time and the nazis aren't trying to kill them.


They're gonna move to VT and build a Hotel/Lodge??? Sweet!!!

jana
11-15-2010, 07:19 AM
They're gonna move to VT and build a Hotel/Lodge??? Sweet!!!

I'd so move there. But then I'd leave a few weeks later because I know I wouldn't get along with Moiraine and I would be deeply hurt by her cold stares.

Ishara
11-15-2010, 08:26 AM
Besides, it's not exactly as if she is really experienced when it comes to romance. So having her sound like a love sick teenager is not unreasonable.

This is the closest thing to a rational rebuttal that I would buy - the fact that she's not experienced with men is a factor, sure. I'm just hoping for some kick ass Moiraine in the next book. Not even fighting, but just, awesome. You know?

Terez
11-15-2010, 08:58 AM
That is pretty much guaranteed. Her moment of weakness is history.

Frenzy
11-15-2010, 10:08 AM
it better be

Davian93
11-15-2010, 10:10 AM
it better be

Was Rand being weak when he fell into Tam's arms bawling over his mistakes?

I dont see how this shows Mo as weak in any way at all.

Frenzy
11-15-2010, 10:18 AM
Was Rand being weak when he fell into Tam's arms bawling over his mistakes?

Do you? And if so, why?

I didn't think he was weak, i thought the scene was weak. My thoughts (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=126173#poststop)on it.

Uno
11-15-2010, 10:27 AM
Do you? And if so, why?

I didn't think he was weak, i thought the scene was weak. My thoughts (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=126173#poststop)on it.

That scene was mildly nauseating, yes. But you're fighting a losing battle here, sis, most posters loved the Moiraine rescue. Personally, I don't care that much how she was rescued. I would just have preferred to see her stay dead.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 10:29 AM
Do you? And if so, why?

I didn't think he was weak, i thought the scene was weak. My thoughts (http://www.theoryland.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=126173#poststop)on it.

You're crazy, it was one of the strongest scenes in the entire series and it showed a ton about Rand.

I think it showed him to be stronger than ever before, the same with Moiraine here. Showing vulnerability is not a weakness.

Ishara
11-15-2010, 10:44 AM
It is not about showing weakness. It is about how the author(s) chose to show her weakness by essentially emasculating her (enfeeble or make her impotent don't quite fit). Showing weakness can be a sign of strength, but this was something else entirely. This was making her less-than before others, before the person who is supposed to augment her stength, not take it away.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 10:47 AM
It is not about showing weakness. It is about how the author(s) chose to show her weakness by essentially emasculating her (enfeeble or make her impotent don't quite fit). Showing weakness can be a sign of strength, but this was something else entirely. This was making her less-than before others, before the person who is supposed to augment her stength, not take it away.

She was just tortured for 7-8 months...I dont really see it as out of character is all. Anyone who was put through that type of pure torture would be out of it a little.

Tamyrlin
11-15-2010, 10:50 AM
I don't anticipate Moiraine's initial reactions mean much to what Moiraine will be to the last book. She is physically weak in many ways immediately following her torture. She is a bit exhausted and hungry and still trying to gain her footing. With some sleep and some food and some clothes she'll be back to form.

TankSpill
11-15-2010, 11:02 AM
I don't anticipate Moiraine's initial reactions mean much to what Moiraine will be to the last book. She is physically weak in many ways immediately following her torture. She is a bit exhausted and hungry and still trying to gain her footing. With some sleep and some food and some clothes she'll be back to form.

Hopefully right in time to balefire Rand! :)

Ishara
11-15-2010, 12:33 PM
I don't anticipate Moiraine's initial reactions mean much to what Moiraine will be to the last book. She is physically weak in many ways immediately following her torture. She is a bit exhausted and hungry and still trying to gain her footing. With some sleep and some food and some clothes she'll be back to form.

Well, lord knows I'm not at my best if I haven't napped, and heaven forfend if I hadn't had a snack lately. ;)

Frenzy
11-15-2010, 02:30 PM
You're crazy
No, Davian, i'm not crazy. For this, anyway. i just like different things and pick up on different things than many others. That isn't crazy, just different.

Am i so different from humankind that i might as well be crazy, to paraphrase? Crazy as a fox, perhaps. :p

Tower of Ghanja
11-15-2010, 03:08 PM
Ishara,

If we'd have a Mat comment about her bottom or whatever then I'd agree with you.

But I really don't see this being sexualized or even gender-specific. Much has been made about RJ's military experience - the fastest way to disempower anyone is to make them naked. It's standard practice in prisons and military detention centers.

The Finn were torturing Moraine. They were draining her of her power and of her dignity. Thom and Mat saved her, and they covered her up and got her out of there, and there wasn't even a comment from Mat about her being naked or in any way a sexual object.

And c'mon, it wasn't the overly muscled hero man coming in to save the fair damsel. It was Thom, who loves her and respects her, and Mat, because it was the right thing to do.

I do understand how awful the genre has been to women over the years, but this ain't Gor or Flash Gordon or whatever.

Besides, now it's Moraine's turn to rescue the whole world.

It is not about showing weakness. It is about how the author(s) chose to show her weakness by essentially emasculating her (enfeeble or make her impotent don't quite fit). Showing weakness can be a sign of strength, but this was something else entirely. This was making her less-than before others, before the person who is supposed to augment her stength, not take it away.

Ishara
11-15-2010, 03:24 PM
ToG (heh) - I have to admit that the nakedness piece is a minor irritant in comparison to the convesration that follows her erscue. I get that it's a demoralization strategy, and a highy effective one. Maybe it's the fact that she demoralized me by her conversation with Thom. ~shrug~ I seem to be in great company with my objections, but on the much smaller team of dissenters, so I'll probably quit complaining about it...

Tower of Ghanja
11-15-2010, 03:34 PM
I certainly am not trying to "shout you down."

I read that conversation as A) Moraine finally taking time to allow herself a personal life and B) recognizing Thom's risking his life by offering to make a sacrifice of her own to show him her gratitude and C) showing him that he was more important to her than Saidar.

Not a "I'll be weak because that's how a woman in a relationship should be" offer.

I will say the whole thing felt rushed and that much more time should have been taken with it, but that's not Brandon's fault - RJ could have worked his way to this years ago if he had taken out huge amounts of clothing descriptions and braid pulling and sniffing and breast-folding-arms-under and "I'm a lousy leader I just want to find my wonderful wife who loves to be yelled at and occasionally spanked."

I take it you're not a big fan of Saldean marriage counseling?

CaraighanMaconar
11-15-2010, 03:40 PM
I've been greatly looking forward to Moiraine's return. I don't have a problem with her having to be rescued, or being naked. I don't have a problem with her relative passivity, or with her being starry eyed and moon struck over Thom. I just wish the dialogue hadn't been so... blood-sugar-spiking-to-coma-level sugary.

netslider
11-15-2010, 03:41 PM
Well, I'm happy that we're all glad.



Anyhoo, last night I dreamt that I escaped a sul'dam and snuck into a secret upper floor through a hidden elevator. Tommy Lee Jones helped me escape the building, and then my alarm went off.

Speaking of dreams, I think I've reached WOT overload. Right after finishing ToM I got really sick (pnemonia with 103 for 4 days straight) and all that time I kept on dreaming/talking (according to my wife) to WOT people ( and I remember some of it very vivdly). Anyhow, never thought to say it but after getting better I actually stayed away from books and forums for almost a week. Figured just to share, thanks for listening all!:o

Ishara
11-15-2010, 03:49 PM
I take it you're not a big fan of Saldean marriage counseling?
Ha ha. Not feelig shouted down, I've just said all I can say on the subject. ;)

And actually, I have no compunctions about a big fight every now and then to clear the air and facilitate making up, but I don't like the railroading that happened earlier on. Thankfully, everyone seems to have grown up a little there. ETA: fully talking about Faile and Perrin, not this thread!

Dewairah
11-15-2010, 07:04 PM
Was Rand being weak when he fell into Tam's arms bawling over his mistakes?

I dont see how this shows Mo as weak in any way at all.

yeah.. infact - if rand was being weak when he cried and made up with tam..

Then we can postulate that he was "weak" when he had his epiphany on the mountain.

By that logic, he should've just gone on being "harder than steel" rand and by having his epiphany on dragonmount he "changed" and turned into a bitch.

down with bitchass rand, bring back badass rand! Right? :p

jana
11-16-2010, 01:52 AM
i'm not crazy.

I agree... I didn't dislike it, and I was happy he made up with Tam, but it didn't "touch" me in any way. I guess part of it could be that I don't really care about Tam.

There were actually things in that very chapter that I found more touching. Like his being civil to Narishma and Flinn for once, and what he said to Nynaeve

Tamyrlin
11-16-2010, 05:45 AM
No, Davian, i'm not crazy. For this, anyway. i just like different things and pick up on different things than many others. That isn't crazy, just different.

Am i so different from humankind that i might as well be crazy, to paraphrase? Crazy as a fox, perhaps. :p

Like as totally 80's crazy as you could be. You to Ish!

And yes, there is safety in posting hundreds of miles away from both of you. :)

(This is where CKP now posts some comment about how ironic yet so Theorylander it is for one Theorylander to call another Theorylander crazy. :D)

Terez
11-16-2010, 06:29 AM
I am pretty crazy. Not quite Felix-crazy, but still crazy.

Infidel
11-16-2010, 01:26 PM
She was just tortured for 7-8 months....

Is that all? Feels like it's been going on for 17years.

Oh, wait....

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 01:33 PM
I don't know what everybody is getting up in arms about. Moiraine is still Moiraine. Look at all the thanks Mat got for risking his life, losing his friend, and getting one of his eyes ripped out of his head, all to save a women he doesn't even particularly like; indeed, when he actually agreed to the assignment it would be fair to say that he actually disliked her. I'm sure Moiraine will go back to treating Perrin like trash soon also and then everything will be back to normal and we can get off this topic. :rolleyes:

Davian93
11-16-2010, 01:34 PM
No, Davian, i'm not crazy. For this, anyway. i just like different things and pick up on different things than many others. That isn't crazy, just different.

Am i so different from humankind that i might as well be crazy, to paraphrase? Crazy as a fox, perhaps. :p

We're TLers...we're all crazy.

Khoram
11-16-2010, 08:00 PM
We're TLers...we're all crazy.

To some degree or another, yes.