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Terez
11-12-2010, 12:54 AM
One of Aviendha's children took after 'their wetlander side', and had dark hair. This makes no sense, since both of Rand's parents had Aiel coloring (the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line, distantly).

I can only see two options:

1. The body-swap theory. UGH. I HATE THIS THEORY.

2. Something to do with the bond, and Min.

It seems to me like #2 is clearly a loony theory. Despite my hatred for the body-swap theory, I have to admit that this is true.

That leaves me hoping that part of what Aviendha has to do to prevent that future will also prevent the body swap.

jana
11-12-2010, 12:56 AM
I'm sticking with it being Alanna's. It's loony enough already that she has quadruplets with 4 different hair colors.


Maybe Rand will switch bodies with the Dark One :)

Terez
11-12-2010, 12:56 AM
Or Logain.

jana
11-12-2010, 12:58 AM
or Fain. That would be hot. Hot like a moose.

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 01:02 AM
hot moose aside, it isn't completely insane for descendants of Rand's wetlander side to be dark-haired. Just look at Uncle Galad.

You could argue that came from Tarangail, i suppose. Or you could say some of it came from Tigraine. Or just buy into the body swap theory. whatever floats your moose.

Terez
11-12-2010, 01:03 AM
hot moose aside, it isn't completely insane for descendants of Rand's wetlander side to be dark-haired. Just look at Uncle Galad.
Yes, but he was half-Taringail (Cairhienin). Both Tigraine and Luc had the red-gold hair of the Ishara Dynasty.

Also, as much as I would like to pretend that it's possible, I know that details like this don't often get slipped into WoT without purpose.

jana
11-12-2010, 01:05 AM
I know that details like this don't often get slipped into WoT without purpose.

Agreed. The kid didn't randomly have dark hair.

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 01:10 AM
Ishara herself was dark enough to be Sea Folk.
Clear afternoon light through the glassed casements in tall windows along the walls mingled with the colored light through the great windows set in the ceiling, where the White Lion of Andor alternated with scenes of Andoran victories and the faces of the land's earliest queens, beginning with Ishara herself, as dark as any of the Atha'an Miere, as full of authority as any Aes Sedai. No ruler of Andor could forget herself with the predecessors who had forged this nation staring down at her.
the dark coloration could've come from Tigraine.

jana
11-12-2010, 01:11 AM
Ishara

Weird. I've seen your icon 3 million times and I just now realized that it's a cat.

(no matter how many times I say "I should quit posting" they just keep appearing)

Terez
11-12-2010, 01:12 AM
If you have to go back 1000 years to find dark coloring, chances are your case is weak.

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 01:14 AM
you could believe the moridin body swap theory instead.

jana
11-12-2010, 01:15 AM
you could believe the moridin body swap theory instead.

Maybe it's Moiraine's baby carried by Aviendha

Terez
11-12-2010, 01:15 AM
you could believe the moridin body swap theory instead.
I know, right? It's a delicate situation, but I'm trying to be practical here.

Frenzy
11-12-2010, 01:16 AM
'sokay Deadsy. i still think Belazamon's icon is a miscolored Orko doing the Cabbage Patch dance. :p

jana
11-12-2010, 01:20 AM
Wow :eek:

l2finalfantasy


while I'm hyper I think I'm going to complain about our emoticons. I'm going to complain to someone random though. Felix - private message incoming. Prepare thyself.

Uno
11-12-2010, 01:21 AM
Well, I don't think we have any clue who Rand's maternal grandfather was, so dark hair could run in the family from one side or another. But I've got a sneaking suspicion that the metaphysical weirdness of Randland is going to increase once more.

How's this: it's all from an alternate reality where Ishamael is the Dragon Reborn because the champion of Light went dark during a previous age?

Terez
11-12-2010, 01:23 AM
while I'm hyper I think I'm going to complain about our emoticons. I'm going to complain to someone random though. Felix - private message incoming. Prepare thyself.
LMAO. Too bad I just repped you.

Well, I don't think we have any clue who Rand's maternal grandfather was, so dark hair could run in the family from one side or another.
Sure, but like I said, I doubt this detail is a red herring. Well, it's a red herring for something, but it still means something. Or something.

Uno
11-12-2010, 01:31 AM
LMAO. Too bad I just repped you.


Sure, but like I said, I doubt this detail is a red herring. Well, it's a red herring for something, but it still means something. Or something.

Quite. I'd just like things not to get even more complicated in regard to Rand. Poor kid's already had so many people going in and out of his head that he might as well install a revolving door. "Let's all head over to Rand's brain" is the general cry of the masses. I suppose swapping bodies mind throw them off the scent for a whille, but still.

morat'corlm
11-12-2010, 01:32 AM
Bodyswapping leads to genocide. IF YOU RIDE WITH MORIDIN YOU RIDE WITH HITLER, Rand.

Perhaps it will end up as just a nod to the HCFF population as that future is averted.

jana
11-12-2010, 01:37 AM
Maybe instead of swapping bodies, their bodies meld into a super human form. Like in Power Rangers.

Okay, deja vu. I think I've posted this theory before, but Mat and Perrin were the arms.

Nynaeve and Moiraine could be the legs, Moridin and Rand the torso and Fain the brain.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 01:59 AM
Sounds like an affront to moose everywhere.

Daekyras
11-12-2010, 02:47 AM
Anywho,

I know it's crazy, but I like crazy.(and Terez)

I think that in some crazy way Avi is going to have the kids of Elayne and possibly Min.

Go random multiple Bond effect, GO!

(As an aside, Elayne dying would be a bonus)

Which also brings up a question- if Rand, Elayne and Avi all live past TG, won't Min die like 200years before the others?

Jonai
11-12-2010, 02:51 AM
Min would die about 200 years before Elayne. If Avi and Rand lived to their full life spawn prolly more like 400-600 years.

dominominic
11-12-2010, 03:04 AM
Maybe instead of swapping bodies, their bodies meld into a super human form. Like in Power Rangers.

Okay, deja vu. I think I've posted this theory before, but Mat and Perrin were the arms.

Nynaeve and Moiraine could be the legs, Moridin and Rand the torso and Fain the brain.

Moiraine would make a rubbish leg, unless you want your Voltrand construction walking in circles the whole time.

David Selig
11-12-2010, 03:04 AM
both of Rand's parents had Aiel coloring (the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line, distantly)
I am confused. Where did that come from? Do you mean in the future after Elayne's children are born?

Anyway, since the ruling line of house Mantear most probably had some marriages over the years with dark-haired persons since most npeople in Randland are brunettes, including a good percentage of the Andoran high ranking nobles (Ellorien, Naean, Arathelle, etc). So unless I am totally confused in my genetics (which is also possible), Rand and Avi having a dark haired child is not impossible, just unlikely.

But I agree there's probably more to that. Loony or not, I prefer the theory that it's because of the bond to Min adding some genes to the mix. Probably because I really dislike the body swap theory.

BTW, another of the quadruplets is described as "small of build", which is also somewhat strange since both Rand and Avi are really tall. Moridin too. Only Min is short, so this helps the loony theory. ;)

YouForgotPoland
11-12-2010, 03:46 AM
The obvious conclusion is that the three that become one are aviendha, the horn, and the heroes of the horn, and she turns into a hero of the horn birthing machine :/

Jonai
11-12-2010, 03:48 AM
I'm slightly disturbed now.

Terez
11-12-2010, 04:21 AM
I am confused. Where did that come from?
Rhea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhea_%28mythology%29), daughter of Adan. She was kidnapped. (Linked for parallely goodness.)

jana
11-12-2010, 04:24 AM
Moiraine would make a rubbish leg, unless you want your Voltrand construction walking in circles the whole time.

I almost died

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 05:24 AM
One of Aviendha's children took after 'their wetlander side', and had dark hair. This makes no sense, since both of Rand's parents had Aiel coloring (the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line, distantly).Maybe the kid saidared it.
That does not seem any more loony than the other theories, and saner than some. Which means that you've done really well this time, my padawan apprentices.

A weak point in my theory would be that the dark haired one is a boy. I'll ignore that for now, and hope this problem disappears.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 07:30 AM
Perhaps the Pattern can override genetics in Randland and all this is moot? Dark hair (unlike dark eyes) isn't so much of a genetic marker anyway.

Two types of pigment give hair its color: eumelanin and pheomelanin. Pheomelanin colors hair red. Eumelanin, which has two subtypes of black or brown, determines the darkness of the hair color. A low concentration of brown eumelanin results in blond hair, whereas a higher concentration of brown eumelanin will color the hair brown. High amounts of black eumelanin result in black hair, while low concentrations give gray hair. All humans have some pheomelanin in their hair.
Pheomelanin is more chemically stable than black eumelanin, but less chemically stable than brown eumelanin, so it breaks down more slowly when oxidized. This is why bleach gives darker hair a reddish tinge during the artificial coloring process. As the pheomelanin continues to break down, the hair will gradually become orange, then yellow, and finally white.
The genetics of hair colors are not yet firmly established. According to one theory, at least two gene pairs control human hair color.
One phenotype (brown/blond) has a dominant brown allele and a recessive blond allele. A person with a brown allele will have brown hair; a person with no brown alleles will be blond. This explains why two brown-haired parents can produce a blond-haired child.
The other gene pair is a non-red/red pair, where the not-red allele (which suppresses production of pheomelanin) is dominant and the allele for red hair is recessive. A person with two copies of the red-haired allele will have red hair, but it will be either auburn or bright reddish orange depending on whether the first gene pair gives brown or blond hair, respectively.
The two-gene model does not account for all possible shades of brown, blond, or red (for example, platinum blond versus dark blonde/light brown), nor does it explain why hair color sometimes darkens as a person ages. Several gene pairs control the light versus dark hair color in a cumulative effect. A person's genotype for a multifactorial trait can interact with environment to produce varying phenotypes (see quantitative trait locus).


Eye coloring is firmly married but hair color is much less so.

Terez
11-12-2010, 07:43 AM
Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I doubt it was dropped in just as a red herring.

arioch
11-12-2010, 07:55 AM
Min would die about 200 years before Elayne. If Avi and Rand lived to their full life spawn [sic] prolly more like 400-600 years.

That's why Rand's boning Min to the exclusion of all others right now. Then he can go live with Elayne for a while, but Elayne will probably release her Oaths and be a Kin when she gets on in age, and then she and Aviendha can share Rand properly as sister-wives.

Also, I'm buying into the Aviendha bearing children for everyone bonded to Rand thing. Even Alanna. Hers is the fat one.

jana
11-12-2010, 08:10 AM
Hers is the fat one.

:)

We should start the "Alanna's Fat Baby" faction

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 08:11 AM
Yeah, yeah. Like I said, I doubt it was dropped in just as a red herring.Obviously not. It is a dark haired herring, after all.

arioch
11-12-2010, 09:13 AM
Obviously not. It is a dark haired herring, after all.

Dark hair ring.

finn
11-12-2010, 09:42 AM
There's a dark-haired maiden named Kainea in one of Min's POVs. Rand asks her to bring messengers after he meets Min, Rhuarc & Darlin at Tear. It's odd but not unheard of. Perhaps both Aviendha & Janduin have dark-haired ancestors somewhere. Tigraine might too for all we know.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 11:19 AM
Holy crap this thread is awesome with awesome sauce. Dark-colored awesome sauce, of course.

I meant to reread the Aviendha-future section last night, but got distracted by bedtime. Was any mention at all made of the twins with whom Elayne is pregnant now? I remember being confused when I read it, because it mentioned the four branches of the Dragon's lineage...but all were from Aviendha.

How can that be? Unless this idea of Aviendha somehow taking on Elayne's babies holds water. (heh...see what I did there?)

GonzoTheGreat
11-12-2010, 11:48 AM
At least one of Elayne's children inherited the throne of Andor. Maybe they went Egyptian, and thereby kept it in the family. I don't think that is explicitly mentioned, though.

Grig
11-12-2010, 11:49 AM
Was any mention at all made of the twins with whom Elayne is pregnant now?

Not specifically, but it was mentioned that the Queen of Andor's greatmother was Elayne. My assumption was that one of their parents was one of Elayne's twins, but it does seem odd that there would be deference to due their greatmothers being first-sisters but not due to their greatfathers being the freaking Dragon. I was assuming that the whole "4 branches of the Dragon" thing was just more of the Aiel not giving a damn when it comes to wetlanders, and only considering the Aiel offspring as the true offspring..

Grig
11-12-2010, 11:51 AM
erm, somehow double posted. not sure how that happened...

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 11:53 AM
Not specifically, but it was mentioned that the Queen of Andor's greatmother was Elayne. My assumption was that one of their parents was one of Elayne's twins, but it does seem odd that there would be deference to due their greatmothers being first-sisters but not due to their greatfathers being the freaking Dragon. I was assuming that the whole "4 branches of the Dragon" thing was just more of the Aiel not giving a damn when it comes to wetlanders, and only considering the Aiel offspring as the true offspring..

Interesting. Maybe it will never be publicly revealed that Elayne's children are from Rand. This would explain it nicely.

dominominic
11-12-2010, 12:22 PM
I almost died

Eh?

alleluia_cone
11-12-2010, 01:01 PM
One of Aviendha's children took after 'their wetlander side', and had dark hair. This makes no sense, since both of Rand's parents had Aiel coloring (the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line, distantly).

Psst . . . I'm not entirely convinced those are Rand's babies. He should demand a paternity test.

You guys are not reading the passages with Elayne and Halwin Norry well enough; I sense an undercurrent of raging passion there. LOL ;)

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 01:04 PM
Psst . . . I'm not entirely convinced those are Rand's babies. He should demand a paternity test.

You guys are not reading the passages with Elayne and Halwin Norry well enough; I sense an undercurrent of raging passion there. LOL ;)

No no...Halwin Norry is a Darkfriend. Egwene would never!

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:07 PM
Psst . . . I'm not entirely convinced those are Rand's babies. He should demand a paternity test.

You guys are not reading the passages with Elayne and Halwin Norry well enough; I sense an undercurrent of raging passion there. LOL ;)

Mat has dark hair and dark eyes...and as he said, "[Elayne] would make a fine serving girl, too bad she was queen. Though I suppose someone has to be queen."

Mat really likes her damnit. Maybe he can have 2 wives too.

dominominic
11-12-2010, 01:11 PM
Mat has dark hair and dark eyes...and as he said, "[Elayne] would make a fine serving girl, too bad she was queen. Though I suppose someone has to be queen."

Mat really likes her damnit. Maybe he can have 2 wives too.

Two wives eh? That would really make him the Son of Battles.

ChiefsFan
11-12-2010, 01:36 PM
Ok, my off the wall and almost certainly not true theory: Since Rand is ta'veren his chance bending could have caused a genetic mutation in those genes, causing the hair to be dark. :p

Toss the dice
11-12-2010, 02:11 PM
Maybe instead of swapping bodies, their bodies meld into a super human form. Like in Power Rangers.

Okay, deja vu. I think I've posted this theory before, but Mat and Perrin were the arms.

Nynaeve and Moiraine could be the legs, Moridin and Rand the torso and Fain the brain.

I assume this Power Ranger mech will be male? In that case, I nominate Talmanes to be the penis. Not exactly thick, but wiry.

David Selig
11-12-2010, 02:11 PM
Interesting. Maybe it will never be publicly revealed that Elayne's children are from Rand. This would explain it nicely.
No - it is mentioned during the meeting between Oncala and the Queen of Andor that "The banner of the Dragon flew here, too, a reminder that the Andoran royal line also carried the lineage of the Car'a'carn. "

Mat has dark hair and dark eyes...and as he said, "[Elayne] would make a fine serving girl, too bad she was queen. Though I suppose someone has to be queen."

Mat really likes her damnit. Maybe he can have 2 wives too.
It's a shame those two didn't end up together, I find their interaction hilarious, and after all there's no way their romance could've been worse than Rand -Elayne's .

Plus if Mat has to be royalty, the Andoran court seems to fit him much more than the Seanchan. Way less formal.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 02:27 PM
No - it is mentioned during the meeting between Oncala and the Queen of Andor that "The banner of the Dragon flew here, too, a reminder that the Andoran royal line also carried the lineage of the Car'a'carn. "
Well, there's that then.


Plus if Mat has to be royalty, the Andoran court seems to fit him much more than the Seanchan. Way less formal.
But he's the foil, you see. He is the antithesis of propriety, which is why he's the perfect Prince of Ravens.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 03:59 PM
Two wives eh? That would really make him the Son of Battles.


Chuckles... who did you think was the greatfather of Jorshem was? Jorshem, one of three remaining Aiel Clans. Jorshem, an Aiel Clan Chief of some Andoran blood (TofM, Ch.49 'Court of the Sun' - Aviendha pov)

If Mat Cauthon is a second 'He Who Comes With the Dawn'... do you really think the Wise Ones, Roofmistresses will give up attempting to marry off Mat Cauthon to one of their own group? Ha! No. No way.

Let alone the Sea Folk? Or Tuatha'an?


What did the Aelfinn say?

“To marry the Daughter of the Nine Moons!”
“To die and live again, and live once more a part of what was!”
“To give up half the light of the world to save the world!”

The Shadow Rising, Chapter 15 'Into the Doorway' - Mat Cauthon point of view

What once existed? Sister-wives among Da'Shain Aiel.

Though I do not foresee the story taken yet another romantic tangent for Mat's character in a future AMoL book.... No time for it, at all.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 07:35 PM
I assume this Power Ranger mech will be male? In that case, I nominate Talmanes to be the penis. Not exactly thick, but wiry.

You know, I've been on TL for over 7 years now and I figured I'd go another 7 without ever reading the above statement...guess I was wrong.

rachg01
12-12-2010, 06:18 AM
Well, we can rule out genetics (for Rand x Aviendha).

T = Red hair
t = Brown/black hair

Tigraine x Jandiun = Tt x TT

And that gives TT and Tt, so crossing Rand (Tt or TT)and Aviendha's (TT)genetic predispositions for the red hair gene would give the same result ... unless Aviendha is only half Aiel :P

I think that maybe the hair colouring comes from Aviendha (reddish), Elayne (blonde/red), Min (brown) and Alanna (black)? The body swap is more likely though, as much as I don't want it to happen :/

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 07:05 AM
Well, we can rule out genetics ...

Yep, that's a pretty good explanation of real world inheritiance of recessive traits.

Sadly, it doesn't apply to a Universe where "inheritance of learned beahavior" and "Inheritance of Ancestral Memories" is possible -- Real World Genetics doesn't work in the WOT.

In general, the statistical outcomes explained by real world genetics holds true, but the logic and mechanisms behind the WOT statistics aren't the same as real world logic and mechanisms.

I don't recall Rand's family tree just off-hand -- beyond Tigraine and Janduin that is -- but by Blood Inheritance rules I'm sure that all of the traits are there in Rand's "Wetlander Blood" even if they are impossible by real-world rules.

SixPips
12-12-2010, 07:25 AM
One Genetics issue I have waited to see here but havent seen is this: the four children are clearly not identical, which makes them fraternal quadruplets. This means that each egg was penetrated by a different sperm. While they are all four labeled as "Children of the Dragon" there are three plausible options that we may not have considered:

1.) Aviendha has an affair with a wetlander. This is highly unlikely, but hasn't been posted out there so I thought I would get some minds rolling.

2.) Aviendha gets raped. I don't know by who, but one of the babies could be that guys, and after all, who would be able to tell for sure when she has four?

3.) This is essentially fleshing out the body swap thing. Fertilization can occur between 2-7 days after ovulation. It is possible that Rand in his current body fertilizes a few eggs, then Rand in his nice and healthy Moridin body fertilizes the last one a day or two after the Last Battle.

Also, everyone knows the O-Gee Transformers were all dinosaurs, which means Cadsuane has to be one of them. Mat makes a better mechano-dong since he gets luckier than anyone else :cool:

Weird Harold
12-12-2010, 07:44 AM
One Genetics issue I have waited to see here but havent seen is this: the four children are clearly not identical, which makes them fraternal quadruplets. This means that each egg was penetrated by a different sperm.

I brought it up, but on another thread. I pointed out that Fraternal Quads are extremely likely since women generally don't release more than one egg per ovary per menstrual cycle. Unless there is some outside intervention, like fertility drugs, quads are genrally identical quads or fraternal pairs of identical twins.

Four separate egg releases is highly unlikely, even with any minor changes to human biology RJ may have included.

subwoofer
12-12-2010, 09:30 AM
I assume this Power Ranger mech will be male? In that case, I nominate Talmanes to be the penis. Not exactly thick, but wiry.Well, there's that then.



But he's the foil, you see. He is the antithesis of propriety

You know, I've been on TL for over 7 years now and I figured I'd go another 7 without ever reading the above statement...guess I was wrong.
LOL- I was still hung up on the stumpy legged Voltrand.:D

subwoofer
12-12-2010, 09:40 AM
That's why Rand's boning Min to the exclusion of all others right now. Then he can go live with Elayne for a while, but Elayne will probably release her Oaths and be a Kin when she gets on in age, and then she and Aviendha can share Rand properly as sister-wives.


wow. Interesting imagery. Lol'd when Mat thought of Rand and came up with those "swirling colors".

::scratches head::

I suppose the variety is okay, but after 400 or so years, you'd thing it would get boring with even three wives. Unless Rand writes a book on the variety of positions used over a 400 year lifespan. And Elayne older, especially with her sweet tooth- ::shudder::

morat'corlm
12-12-2010, 07:43 PM
Well, we can rule out genetics (for Rand x Aviendha).

T = Red hair
t = Brown/black hairIt isn't nearly that simple. But you are correct that the results are statistically unlikely.

FelixPax
12-13-2010, 12:48 AM
Well, we can rule out genetics (for Rand x Aviendha).

T = Red hair
t = Brown/black hair

Tigraine x Jandiun = Tt x TT

And that gives TT and Tt, so crossing Rand (Tt or TT)and Aviendha's (TT)genetic predispositions for the red hair gene would give the same result ... unless Aviendha is only half Aiel :P

Question in my mind is assuming Rand al'Thor physically dies in Tarmon Gai'don, 'before getting it on' with Aviendha. How is Rand al'Thor to be bought back into life within the "True World" from that place where Human Threads exist after Death?

Considering that Birgitte was a Hero tied to the Pattern, it seems as if Rand al'Thor will go to the same place Birgitte was in tFoH book: Tel'aran'rhiod.


If one assumes that Rand al'Thor is going to be "ripped out of the Tel'aran'rhiod', similar to how Birgitte was in tFoH book... how can readers be sure what Rand al'Thor's appearance will look like?


Perhaps he'll return with dark hair, went he's Ripped out of the TAR? This possibility would fits what Min sees of Birgitte's lives with her Auras & Images; likewise what Rand al'Thor saw of the Heroes of the Horn at Falme with varying names & appearances.

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 08:03 AM
how can readers be sure what Rand al'Thor's appearance will look like?

...likewise what Rand al'Thor saw of the Heroes of the Horn at Falme with varying names & appearances.

The stock answer to that is, "the Heroes in T'A'R wear the name and appearance of their last incarnation;" Rand would look like Rand -- although he would probably have both hands and no wounds.

yks 6nnetu hing
12-13-2010, 08:58 AM
Moiraine would make a rubbish leg, unless you want your Voltrand construction walking in circles the whole time.

:D *imagines* LOL :D

it is very rare, but there are instances when a white couple has a black baby - DNA tests are made, the kid is definitely with the right parents, 50% chromosomes from mommy and 50% from the guy who thought he'd been cheated on. But one of the parents has one single black ancestor some 500 years ago. And that's enough. *shrug*

now, if the kid had sea-green hair, that would be out of the ordinary.

Terez
12-13-2010, 09:09 AM
I like purple hair.

ShadowLord
12-13-2010, 07:21 PM
So, what color is Moridin's hair?

Weird Harold
12-13-2010, 07:51 PM
So, what color is Moridin's hair?
From Encylopedia WOT:

He is a tall, broad shouldered young man the same size as Rand with bright blue eyes and a too strong chin. He has a deep voice. He is almost pretty enough for Graendal. (ACoS,Ch25) He is a big fellow with black hair and a deep voice. He is easily as tall as Rand. (ACoS,Ch41) He is a blue-eyed man with a square chin, perhaps a few years older than Rand. (KoD,Ch18)

lurk
12-14-2010, 07:48 AM
what troubles me more that they are speaking quadruplets here and they all have different haircoloring?

means they must be non-identical twins/quadruplets whatever, so avi must have had four eggs jumping at the same time ! :eek:

now how is that for chance, oh wait taveren or...

she must be on hormones or something, yes yes that is it she is on drugs:p

CreationEdge
12-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Are we assuming, then, that in the Aiel waste Blonde hair is a recessive trait, not a Dominant one?

Because, that doesn't seem right to me. If dark hair were still a dominate phenotype amongst the Aiel, after 1000 years of breeding you'd think there'd be a less blondes.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2010, 09:36 AM
Not necessarily. If it makes no difference at all, evolutionary speaking, then the numbers wouldn't change in a predictable manner. That means, random chance would in the long term (couple of million years) weed out one or the other, but you wouldn't see any evidence of that on such short time scales. If there is some selection pressure against dark hair, then they would decrease in relative numbers, and with a stable population in absolute numbers too.

CreationEdge
12-15-2010, 01:37 PM
I was supposing it went back further than the AoL, but you're still right, yeah. (Figuring Someshta recognizing the phenotypes of a typical Child of the Dragon means that they'd for a long time had a common appearance as a people)

Grig
12-15-2010, 03:06 PM
Because, that doesn't seem right to me. If dark hair were still a dominate phenotype amongst the Aiel, after 1000 years of breeding you'd think there'd be a less blondes.

This quote seems confused. What do you mean by "dominate phenotype"? Just because dark hair is the dominant phenotype according to a basic definition like "the phenotype of a genotype containing the dominant allele", that doesn't mean that said dominant allele is common or existent in a given population. For instance, see Avi's "hadn't seen dark eyes on anyone but peddlers before crossing the Dragonwall". The Aiel are basically the definition of genetic homogeneity, and as such a hotbed for recessive traits to "dominate" the population. Without significant interbreeding with the outside world, there is no reason the "dominant phenotype" would become more common than the recessive, given the existing genetic homogeneity.

Shob
12-15-2010, 05:12 PM
I didn`t find that weird at all. My mother has red hair, my father has blonde hair. Myself I have brown hair while my twin brother is blonde.

Toss the dice
12-16-2010, 04:06 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is all about hair color right? And not eye color?

I see the 4 different children having different hair color and hair color that is rare for an Aiel as not a problem at all. Plenty of Aiel have been described as having rare hair color among them. Amys for one, with blonde hair so light it is essentially white. A few others have very dark hair, and a couple even had raven hair. Throw into the mix the fact that Rand has genes from ANDOR, aka Tigraine - and well, no hair color would be a surprise as long as it WAS a hair color.

Eyes are a slightly different matter, but just slightly. Basically all Aiel have light eyes, but there is Marline's purple, and a couple other oddballs other than brown. Avi's children having brown eyes would be considerably more weird than any sort of hair color, but since Rand is half Andoran, pretty much anything goes here too.

Now if Rand was 100% Aiel, I would fervently agree that all children would have to have Aiel coloring of both hair and eyes, at least colors that Aiel have had before. If any children DIDN'T have Aiel coloring, the only thing you could chalk that up to would be Ta'veren or some other odd reason like that. Aiel are INCREDIBLY homogeneous in their hair and eye coloring, and other than one of those miracle reasons, it would essentially be flat impossible for any other coloring to show up. You can discuss genes, phenotypes, and traits all you want - but it simply wouldn't happen. Also - remember this is a fantasy story, not the real world.

Grig
12-16-2010, 05:24 PM
I see the 4 different children having different hair color and hair color that is rare for an Aiel as not a problem at all. Plenty of Aiel have been described as having rare hair color among them. Amys for one, with blonde hair so light it is essentially white. A few others have very dark hair, and a couple even had raven hair. Throw into the mix the fact that Rand has genes from ANDOR, aka Tigraine - and well, no hair color would be a surprise as long as it WAS a hair color.

Uh, this only works if hair color is essentially rolling a 1d4, with a hair color assigned to each number. Genetics does not work that way, generally. The traits of the parents influence the traits of the kids (not the traits of Joe blow Aiel who happened to have raven-colored hair). Note that all the earlier examples of "well, it could happen, my aunt and uncle have brown hair but they had a blonde kid" are examples of recessive phenotypes occuring when parents had the dominant phenotype. That's how genetics work. Dominant phenotype can mask a genotype with alleles for a recessive trait, but it generally doesn't happen the other way around.

People have pointed out that genetics gets a little more complicated than that when it comes to hair, which is true. There appear to be multiple genes regulating it. However, both red hair and blonde hair are on the recessive end of things.

Of course, we're looking at a fantasy book. So it's fine to say "magic, QED" or just "randland genes work differently". But the number of other explanations that are just plain wrong merited a response.

Now if Rand was 100% Aiel, I would fervently agree that all children would have to have Aiel coloring of both hair and eyes, at least colors that Aiel have had before.

Uh, what does this have to do with anything? 100% Aiel doesn't matter, he has 100% recessive hair/eye color genes if we're treating Randland genetics as in line with Real Life genetics. There is no reason to "ferverently agree" only if he's 100% Aiel, since for the traits we're discussing both he and his mate possess the same recessive traits. They're functionally identical wrt the traits under discussion to the "100% Aiel" you're using to make a point.

Weird Harold
12-16-2010, 08:09 PM
Of course, we're looking at a fantasy book. So it's fine to say "magic, QED" or just "randland genes work differently". But the number of other explanations that are just plain wrong merited a response.



Uh, what does this have to do with anything? 100% Aiel doesn't matter, he has 100% recessive hair/eye color genes if we're treating Randland genetics as in line with Real Life genetics.

Randlanders don't have genes, per se. Inheritance is by Blood.

You seem to be more familiar with the history of Genetics than I am, but the WOT pretty much stopped around the understanding current when Mendel first discovered recessive traits. The Statistical distribution of traits follows the real world fairly closely but the mechanism leaves a few holes for inheritance of dominant traits through recessive parents -- If someone can get flashes of some ancestor's memories through blood relationship rules, why not get hair and eye color from the same mechanism?

It doesn't work that way in the modern world, but nothing in the WOT does.

1Powerslave
12-17-2010, 05:35 PM
One of Aviendha's children took after 'their wetlander side', and had dark hair. This makes no sense, since both of Rand's parents had Aiel coloring (the Andoran royal line is descended from Rand's Aiel line, distantly).

I can only see two options:

1. The body-swap theory. UGH. I HATE THIS THEORY.

2. Something to do with the bond, and Min.

It seems to me like #2 is clearly a loony theory. Despite my hatred for the body-swap theory, I have to admit that this is true.

That leaves me hoping that part of what Aviendha has to do to prevent that future will also prevent the body swap.
Yaaay, body swap! This is a great piece of evidence you have uncovered. I couldn't convince you, T, but perhaps you will convince yourself eventually. :p

It doesn't need to be complicated ( @Uno ), it is in fact very simple. As opposing the "crap, I'm actually dead, now what?" theories and spin-offs, the Body Swap theory is very straight forward and elegant. They merge occurs as per prophecy and then Rand just reduces Moridin's voice to that of a fly's buzz. Rand is then in the very rare and precious position of being Nae'blis and still good. He will have a very excellent opportunity to strike at the Shadow from it's Heart. :)

CreationEdge
12-18-2010, 08:19 AM
Thanks for the in-depth reply Grig, but Gonzo pretty much said that in layman's terms already and I retracted my statement.

BigBadWolfbrother
12-18-2010, 10:20 AM
So, I've been lurking and lurking here for a long time without actually posting or even having a login name and THIS HAS TO BE THE FUNNIEST DAMN THREAD I HAVE EVER READ HERE! Keep up the good work. You made my day. I haven't laughed like this all alone in quite some time.


Props to the penis power ranger!

BigBadWolfbrother
12-18-2010, 10:22 AM
P.S. Could somebody direct me to the above mentioned "body-swap" theory? I know enough to get what is being suggested, but I can't seem to find an official theory on it...and if there isn't one, could I put in a request for one?

Terez
12-18-2010, 10:43 AM
P.S. Could somebody direct me to the above mentioned "body-swap" theory? I know enough to get what is being suggested, but I can't seem to find an official theory on it...and if there isn't one, could I put in a request for one?
Closest thing you'll get to an official version is @Dragonmount (http://www.dragonmount.com/forums/topic/51172-the-bodyswap-theory/). We have some believers here, but none of them are into writing theories. There are probably some older versions of the theory in our archives, but they'll be outdated.

1Powerslave
12-18-2010, 12:06 PM
P.S. Could somebody direct me to the above mentioned "body-swap" theory? I know enough to get what is being suggested, but I can't seem to find an official theory on it...and if there isn't one, could I put in a request for one?
I'm a body-swapper. You'll find the evidence collected nicely in Luckers theory by the link Terez posted.

"Body swap" is an unfortunate name IMO. The way I think it will occur does not include a full swap. Rand will at the moment of his death reach out and send himself through his link to Moridin, effectively leaving his dying body. Moridin and Rand will then coexist in Moridin's body. There existance will be similar to that of Rand and LTT previously, which will make Rand better equipped to win that battle for control.

The link is very potent. We have evidence of this through the way both Moridin and Rand adopts each others demeanor and pains and emotions (?). This is done without concious thought or any effort from the two of them that we know. Now, say they wanted to affect each other...

I also think that this prophecy, left out by Luckers, is in regards to Rand merging with Moridin, because of the similar wording when Rand thinks about his link to Moridin. Paraphrased, "he thought that if he reach out he could touch the other man".

A Crown of Swords
Chapter 33
Rand:
“I saw you and another man. I couldn't make out either face, but I knew one was you. You touched, and seemed to merge into one another, and....one of you dies, and one doesn't.”

The wording of this prophecy, btw, with "you and another man" would discount it for being about Rand and LTT if you believe that Rand and LTT always was the same person. E.g. LTT was a Construct theory, Rand suffered from a split personality disorder.

Furthermore, the last part of "one of you dies, and one doesn't" would be completely crazy if stated in regards to LTT and LTT being just a part of Rand's personality. Looking at it that way, neither Rand or LTT died, they both lived.

Mort
12-19-2010, 03:53 AM
I don't think the "the two touched and one died" is about LTT either. Which to me makes some kind of bodyswap scenario a lot more likely. Bodyswap away!

GonzoTheGreat
12-19-2010, 04:37 AM
Swap, swap, swap your bod,
Gently down the wheel.
Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily,
Life is but a dream.

1Powerslave
12-19-2010, 05:10 AM
Hehe. Is that from the Jendai prophecy?

BigBadWolfbrother
12-19-2010, 06:05 AM
Thank you for your assistance(s)(?). I will be checking this out. I like this theory of the body swap...but will Min still want to participate in all this "comforting" (as she calls it) after Rand's looks change???

morat'corlm
12-19-2010, 07:38 AM
She didn't want him the first time. Why should the second time be any different? The Wheel weaves.