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Tower of Ghanja
11-12-2010, 11:12 AM
So, there are clouds covering the skies all over Randland, except where Rand happens to be at any one time, and except in Caemlyn.

As we haven't been told there's a ray of sunshine over Avienda or Min (and we can deduce that there is NOT one over Min as she uses the clouds to track Rand's arrivals), it's probably not due to Elayne, so why Caemlyn?

Most likely Rand/Elayne's twins. Question - is this some inherent quality of the children who will be channeling from birth, or is there a link between them and daddy?

Thoughts?

arioch
11-12-2010, 11:27 AM
Min uses the bond to track Rand. The Maidens use Min to track Rand.

Tower of Ghanja
11-12-2010, 11:51 AM
Yes, but the clouds part when he arrives, which means that they come back when he leaves, so Min doesn't have the sunshine tied to her.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:19 PM
What if it's Mat? Whenever Mat Or Perrin are in the same room, the fireflies versus darkness vision becomes less awful.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 12:29 PM
So, there are clouds covering the skies all over Randland, except where Rand happens to be at any one time, and except in Caemlyn.

As we haven't been told there's a ray of sunshine over Avienda or Min (and we can deduce that there is NOT one over Min as she uses the clouds to track Rand's arrivals), it's probably not due to Elayne, so why Caemlyn?

What did the Eelfinn say?


"The savor!" one Eelfinn exclaimined.
"So long!" cried another.
"How it twists around him!" said the one who had take his eye. "How it spins! Scents of blood in the air! And the gambler becomes the center of all! I can taste fate itself!

Towers of Midnight, Chapter 54 'Light Of The World' - Mat Cauthon point of view


Mat Cauthon "has become the center of all", according to Eelfinn. What does that means? I think it means Mat is a more powerful Ta'veren going forward overall than Rand al'Thor is.

Who was in Caemlyn for a good part of TofM?
Mat Cauthon.
Young Mat--Olver. Though Olver being Ta'veren is unconfirmed.


What other confirmed Ta'veren visited Caemlyn in TofM?
Perrin.


What uncorfirmed Ta'veren was last seen heading towards Caemlyn in KoD?
Valan Luca.


That's anywhere between 2 to at most 4 Ta'veren, in or around Caemlyn at different times in TofM book. Besides the Eelfinn claiming that Mat Cauthon has become the center of all, center of fate itself.



Robert Jordan claimed an interview that Children cannot be Ta'veren. So Elayne and Rand's twin babies are absolutely not the cause of the weather change in Caemlyn. Well, except of the change in Elayne's emotional state. ;)

Hugh the Hand
11-12-2010, 12:43 PM
I cannot tell if your "theories" are sarcastic jokes or not.

You think Oliver is Ta'vern?

You think Luca is Ta'vern?

And I think at one point you thought Luca was going to be the third to enter the Tower, but I might be wrong about that, I know someone posted that as their signature line. (I do not need to cite the obvious "third" as Jain/Noel prior to Towers, do I?)

You think Lanfear and Cyn are different people? (I do not need to cite the evidence that you are wrong do I?)

And now you think Mat will be more (or stronger) Ta'vern then Rand?

The Snakes/Foxes' comments could center around the fact that at that instant, Mat was the center of fate, because if he did not choose correctly, IE to give up his eye, then Mory died and so did he, Thom, and the world.

But that is just me. I am only a 14 year old...........:)

I do not have a working theory why Caemlyon has sunshine and the rest of the world does not. But a small part of the Dragon is there, ie the Babies. So that is as good a theory as any. It could be the Ta'vern, Matt and Perrin. But I think it is more tied to the Dragon then ta'vern.

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 12:51 PM
I cannot tell if your "theories" are sarcastic jokes or not.

You think Oliver is Ta'vern?

You think Luca is Ta'vern?



I wonder why Olver doesn't wear a cape. He's ugly enough to be a cow though right?

Neilbert
11-12-2010, 01:00 PM
Yes, but the clouds part when he arrives, which means that they come back when he leaves, so Min doesn't have the sunshine tied to her.

Beginning of Chapter 12, Min is chilling in Tear, and "The clouds still lurked on the horizon, but they were broken around the city in an unnatural ring. Perfectly circular."

Next page:
"Min turned her eyes northward again, into the distant cloud-smothered haze. As far as she could determine through the bond, she wa slooking directly at him. Was he in Andor, perhaps? Or in the Borderlands?..."

Then the last page of the chapter:
"Cadsuane froze. The Tea tasted good."

A longer description of the tea followed by:

"Min gasped, turning sharply toward the northern quarter of the city.
...
"He's here," Min said softly.

So the sky was broken in a circle around Min's location and the tea tasted good BEFORE Rand arrived. It would seem that the three women bonded to him are echoing his pattern healing effects.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 01:00 PM
I wonder why Olver doesn't wear a cape. He's ugly enough to be a cow though right?

He doesn't wear a cape because he's not a Hero, yet. Duh.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 01:02 PM
Rand is totally a hero! He's KICKASS. But with super powers of course.

Tower of Ghanja
11-12-2010, 01:20 PM
How did I miss that? Thanks. So it's the veins of gold, apparently.

What's the weather like in Rhuidean?

Beginning of Chapter 12, Min is chilling in Tear, and "The clouds still lurked on the horizon, but they were broken around the city in an unnatural ring. Perfectly circular."

Next page:
"Min turned her eyes northward again, into the distant cloud-smothered haze. As far as she could determine through the bond, she wa slooking directly at him. Was he in Andor, perhaps? Or in the Borderlands?..."

Then the last page of the chapter:
"Cadsuane froze. The Tea tasted good."

A longer description of the tea followed by:

"Min gasped, turning sharply toward the northern quarter of the city.
...
"He's here," Min said softly.

So the sky was broken in a circle around Min's location and the tea tasted good BEFORE Rand arrived. It would seem that the three women bonded to him are echoing his pattern healing effects.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 02:55 PM
I do not have a working theory why Caemlyon has sunshine and the rest of the world does not. But a small part of the Dragon is there, ie the Babies. So that is as good a theory as any. It could be the Ta'vern, Matt and Perrin. But I think it is more tied to the Dragon then ta'vern.

You have no working theory or idea?
I see.


Robert Jordan specifically claimed that babies of a normal birth would not be Ta'veren.

Q: Does ta’veren-ness ebb and flow as needed? If Rand, Mat, and Perrin were all ta’veren growing up, it seems that the Two Rivers would have had a lot of odd events occurring, but no mention is made of it.

RJ: You might say that ta’veren-ness ebbs and flows. For one thing, remember that even for someone like Rand, the effects are really occasional, not continuous. Even when he is causing dozens of coincidences in a particular place, many more events pass off quite normally. For another thing, no one is born ta’veren. Rand, Mat, and Perrin only became ta’veren just before Moiraine appeared. You become ta’veren according to the needs of the Wheel. Like the Heroes linked to the Wheel, who are spun out as needed to try to keep the weaving of the Pattern straight, a man or woman becomes ta’veren because the Wheel has “decided” to use them as an influence on the Pattern. And, no, the Wheel isn’t sentient. Think more of a fuzzy logic device that uses feedback to correct what it is doing in order to do it in the most efficient way.

Source: Crossroads of Twilight eBook "Glimmers" Interview (http://wot.wikia.com/wiki/Q%26A_From_Glimmers_Prologue)


You want to know why Olver MIGHT be Ta'veren?

The Pattern self-corrected when Mat Cauthon was killed in Caemlyn (TFoH) to create Olver. Why? Because the Pattern NEEDED Mat Cauthon's Soul as Ta'veren to right the Wheel's direction.

Did Robert Jordan mention anything along these lines previously?

Question: At the end of The Great Hunt when Rand and Ishamael were fighting in the air above Falme, they appeared in the sky over many places and my question is whether this is something done by the One Power or something down by the Creator, how did they appear in the sky?

Jordan: An effect of the Wheel, really. It wasn't the Creator. The Wheel is more than a simple mechanism. Remember the Wheel can spit out ta'veren, can spit out Heroes as a self correcting device because the Pattern is drifting from what it is supposed to be. We are not talking about something as simple as a spinning wheel at all, we are talking something more along the lines of the most complex computer you could possibly imagine. There were at that time, two, there were false Dragons that had a chance to create a lot of disruption. By the appearance in the sky at that battle, not just in Falme but in other places, those false Dragons were taken off the board because there was only room now for one, for one Dragon.

Source: DragonCon 5 September 2005 - Tamyrlin reporting (http://theoryland.yuku.com/topic/9910)

For those who'd argument Olver was not "born" as a Ta'veren, what would I say?


If Birgitte could be spit out into the 'True World' in an odd birth as a Hero of the Horn, could not Olver's own odd birth be a loophole? Olver in essence skipped childhood totally. He looks like a kid but thinks like a young teenager mostly. Olver's actions pushed Mat Cauthon to remain in Ebou Dar, when he wanted to flee the town. Without Olver's actions Mat would not have met Tuon, Bethamin, Seta, Egeanin/Leilwin nor Valan Luca. That's besides learning a way into the Tower of Ghenjei. Yes, Olver's role has been very important to the unfolding of the story.


How did Moiraine describe Olver in her letter to Thom & later to Mat Cauthon? (KoD, Ch.10 'A Village in Shiota' - Mat Cauthon pov)

Young Mat.


Who knew the way into the Tower of the Ghenjei?(KoD)

Young Mat. That's Olver.


What did the members of the Band of Red Hand sing in Cairhien?

“Well toss the dice however they fall,
and snuggle the girls be they short or tall,
then follow young Mat whenever he calls,
to dance with Jak o’ the Shadows.”

The Fires of Heaven, Chapter 45 'After the Storm' - Mat Cauthon point of view

Who opened Verin's Letter to Mat Cauthon near Caemlyn?

Young Mat.

Who wants to fight the Trollocs in Caemlyn (TofM)?

Young Mat. That's Olver.

Toss the dice
11-12-2010, 03:03 PM
I do not have a working theory why Caemlyon has sunshine and the rest of the world does not. But a small part of the Dragon is there, ie the Babies. So that is as good a theory as any. It could be the Ta'vern, Matt and Perrin. But I think it is more tied to the Dragon then ta'vern.

Gotta be the Rand sperm.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 03:10 PM
You want to know why Olver MIGHT be Ta'veren?

The Pattern self-corrected when Mat Cauthon was killed in Caemlyn (TFoH) to create Olver. Why? Because the Pattern NEEDED Mat Cauthon's Soul as Ta'veren to right the Wheel's direction.



Are you suggesting that Olver has part of Mat's soul? Or just that Olver was spun out to fulfill the role of that Mat would have missed out on had he died at Caemlyn?

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 03:11 PM
Gotta be the Rand sperm.

But who hooked up more in the story? Mat or Rand? :o

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 03:17 PM
Are you suggesting that Olver has part of Mat's soul? Or just that Olver was spun out to fulfill the role of that Mat would have missed out on had he died at Caemlyn?

Yes. Two individuals, same soul. Each soul at a different point in development though.

If Slayer can be the man with two souls within one body, so to speak. Why cannot Mat Cauthon and Olver each possess an identially copied soul? A copied soul placed into a new body by the Pattern.

Olver is Jordan's way of genetic cloning, minus the nurturing of Cauthon's family in Two Rivers. ;)

Of course after Olver was created by the Pattern, he becomes a new person, a new being. Separate from Mat's soul, at that point forward. And yet Olver is made of the same stuff at his unusual birth as Mat Cauthon was at his own birth. Each to become Ta'veren, at a later point in time.

What to called Olver's Soul?
A Soul Split. A Soul Clone. A Young Mat.

Crispin's Crispian
11-12-2010, 03:22 PM
Yes. Two individuals, same soul. Each soul at a different point in development though.OK. Just making sure where you were coming from.

Tower of Ghanja
11-12-2010, 03:25 PM
I think "young Mat" is just Mat Cauthon from Moraine's perspective - she's in her 40s/50s.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 04:33 PM
I think "young Mat" is just Mat Cauthon from Moraine's perspective - she's in her 40s/50s.

Multiple Characters have used the words 'Young Mat' across the story, not solely Moiraine Sedai. Thom did. Davram Bashere did. Siuan did. Verin did. Sheriam did. Band of Red Hand did it, in singing.

For all we know Olver is going to go the Black Tower to gather up the Aes Sedai sisters sitting outside the Walls. If anyone could charm Myrelle, it's 'Young Mat'.

Who likes to bond'em young?

Greens! :D

The Angry Druid
11-12-2010, 05:38 PM
I think the clouds/food issue is interesting, and I buy the bonded ladies theory, based upon the evidence (and Alanna may also have a similar effect).

What is causing the halo. Rand is, certainly. But anything else? Perrin's group doesn't have spoilage as much as others.

With respect to the food, I think the "order and belief" theory makes a lot of sense. Maybe Mesaana's presence in the Tower (and Aran'gar's absence from the camp) can explain the discrepancies between those locations and Perrin's camp and Caemlyn.

As for the halo, I don't buy the theory that Elayen's babies are causing it, I don't think so. It is cloudy in Caemlyn (or raining) for most of the book. Only after VoG does cloud-cover break around Caemlyn. Clouds were also gone from Tear w/out Rand, post VoG, and Min (and Alanna) were both there.

I'm going with the fact that sunlight blooms around the area in which someone bonded to Rand resides. It will be interesting to see Avi and Alanna post VoG for confirmation.

Anyway, here's the halo/food related stuff, per arc:

So, we have a halo in Tear before Rand returns, and Cadsuane's tea also tasting good. Min is there. And it can't be a lingering halo, either, unless he returned to the city unbeknownst to Min, who said he'd been gone for 3 days. In Bandar Eban, the clouds part immediately upon Rand's arrival.

In Ch. 5, Egwene's tea still tasted good, even though Rand is gone from TV. In Ch. 15, the clouds return to TV. They may have held for a couple of days after Rand's visit. We've had sisters killed and Gawyn's interactions with Egwene. Still, it could be only 2 days after. Egwene tells Nynaeve to meet her in the Hall in T'A'R the night before the meeting in Ch. 3, and Ch. 14-15 is the day after she meets Nynaeve. Anyway, the halo did persist for a couple of days after Rand left (we think). By Ch. 33 (with Nynaeve) the soup is all good, ingredients from Caemlyn.

In Caemlyn, Mat remarks that the clouds had parted and left the sky open to the air, but no halo is mentioned. In Ch. 11 Elayne feels nothing but anger though the bond, and thinks he is in Arad Doman, and this is the chapter where she receives Mat's letter. So any halo via the bond effect can't be happening yet, because we are still pre-VoG. In Ch. 17, the tea still tastes terrible. In Ch 22, it is raining, no halo from Elayne's babies or Mat's ta'verenness at this point, though still pre-VoG. It is yet to be three days (Elayne still has the medallion). In Ch. 29, it is still cloudy while Elayne is having the Dragon's tested. A misting of rain the night Mat fought the Gholam (Ch. 31). In a Good Soup, Elayne confirms the cloud cover breaks around Caemlyn after VoG.

In Perrin's group (no one bonded to Rand, but food protection), there were still clouds as of Chapter 20, with Perrin confirming Rand in Arad Doman (the first time). Ch. 30 is when Perrin hits VoG.

David Selig
11-12-2010, 06:35 PM
When Mat is outside the Tower of Ghendjey, He notes that the sky is gray, and also there's this quote
"the tower looked to be of pure metal, its solid steel gleaming in the overcast sunlight"

On the other hand, when Elayne went to Cairhien, a little after she went through the gateway, it's noted that "the sky was overcast". So she doesn't seem to possess Zen-Rand's "instant cloud dispeller" effect.

Hugh the Hand
11-12-2010, 10:15 PM
You have no working theory or idea?
I see.

I see no reason to respond to this, since I obviously put forth a theory. But, on to more important points....

Robert Jordan specifically claimed that babies of a normal birth would not be Ta'veren.


I did not say they would be Ta'veren. In fact I do not care if they are or not. There is other parts of the Dragon that are important, and he did leave them behind. And I am not digressing into what those parts are.

You want to know why Olver MIGHT be Ta'veren?

The Pattern self-corrected when Mat Cauthon was killed in Caemlyn (TFoH) to create Olver. Why? Because the Pattern NEEDED Mat Cauthon's Soul as Ta'veren to right the Wheel's direction.

Did Robert Jordan mention anything along these lines previously?



For those who'd argument Olver was not "born" as a Ta'veren, what would I say?


If Birgitte could be spit out into the 'True World' in an odd birth as a Hero of the Horn, could not Olver's own odd birth be a loophole? Olver in essence skipped childhood totally. He looks like a kid but thinks like a young teenager mostly. Olver's actions pushed Mat Cauthon to remain in Ebou Dar, when he wanted to flee the town. Without Olver's actions Mat would not have met Tuon, Bethamin, Seta, Egeanin/Leilwin nor Valan Luca. That's besides learning a way into the Tower of Ghenjei. Yes, Olver's role has been very important to the unfolding of the story.


How did Moiraine describe Olver in her letter to Thom & later to Mat Cauthon? (KoD, Ch.10 'A Village in Shiota' - Mat Cauthon pov)

Young Mat.


Who knew the way into the Tower of the Ghenjei?(KoD)

Young Mat. That's Olver.


What did the members of the Band of Red Hand sing in Cairhien?



Who opened Verin's Letter to Mat Cauthon near Caemlyn?

Young Mat.

Who wants to fight the Trollocs in Caemlyn (TofM)?

Young Mat. That's Olver.

Now here is where I am again confused, is this a joke or your actual theory?

I am going to go with an actual theory, since you seem to have put some effort into it.

However, I do not have the books handy to pull quotes, but the Band, in song, no pun intended, sung about Young Mat before Rahvin killed him. So lets discard that theory.

He is often called Young Mat because he is young, and at times he acts like a child. IE catching badgers.

To think Oliver, who was born long before Mat died is a copy of, clone of, or part of Mat's soul is simply wrong. Unless, you believe the Wheel, a machine as RJ once called it, can transmute souls like the DO can.

Now Oliver becoming Ta'veren after Mat died would be more plausible, but you did not present any points from the books where he demonstrates that "Ta'vereness" With the exception of winning at Snakes and Foxes, but i think we can all agree that had more to do with Mat winning then Oliver being Ta'veren himself.

Oliver keeping Mat in Ebor Dau is an example, but it could be seen the other way, Mat's "Ta'verenness", not sure what other word to use, caused Oliver to run off so that Mat would stay and do everything that was needed.

Finally, you mentioned that Oliver is more grown up then most kids his age. Well the poor kid has been through more suffering then someone 3 times his age, father dying, mother dying, molesting a horse, mat, etc. It is no wonder the kid is even sane.

As an aside, and since I am not handy with RJ quotes like Terez and others, but did not RJ say Oliver was not Gabrial Cain and was just a kid? I defiantly could be wrong on that.

So to sum up:

Cyn is Lanfer

Oliver is Oliver and just a boy with a very hard life, who has been important to the story and Mat's growth.

Luca is a minor character that we might not even see again.

And as for the weather patterns around Caemyln, who knows, but I like the children of the Dragon theory. Not that they are Ta'veren, that the land is tied to them. In a very small way....

nameless
11-13-2010, 02:04 AM
Multiple Characters have used the words 'Young Mat' across the story, not solely Moiraine Sedai. Thom did. Davram Bashere did. Siuan did. Verin did. Sheriam did. Band of Red Hand did it, in singing.


All of these people are significantly older than Mat, and Olver hadn't even appeared in the story yet when half of these things happened. You're not even trying to make sense anymore.