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Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:03 PM
I like her...as a character and as a person. There I said it...the rest of you are just haters!

Zaela Sedai
11-12-2010, 12:06 PM
Me Too!!! Go ahead I dare ya to take on the New Englanders!!!

E-Rock
11-12-2010, 12:08 PM
I like her...as a character and as a person. There I said it...the rest of you are just haters!

On that topic:
What are the odds that she's going to feel and/or act guilty about not telling Rand he's going to be a father when they meet up at Merrilor?
Will it influence her position for/against Rand on the seal breaking issue?

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:10 PM
On that topic:
What are the odds that she's going to feel and/or act guilty about not telling Rand he's going to be a father when they meet up at Merrilor?
Will it influence her position for/against Rand on the seal breaking issue?

I think Elayne will listen to reason either way on the Seals. She's a pretty intelligent person when it comes down to it. She's not common sense street smart but that's more an issue of her sheltered upbringing than anything.

On the babies, I think Rand will figure it out pretty easily.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:12 PM
Ok I'm a hater, I admit it. I feel the same way about the Amyrlin...strike me down with lightning!

E-Rock
11-12-2010, 12:13 PM
I think Elayne will listen to reason either way on the Seals. She's a pretty intelligent person when it comes down to it. She's not common sense street smart but that's more an issue of her sheltered upbringing than anything.

On the babies, I think Rand will figure it out pretty easily.

I was thinking more along the lines of; will she feel guilty about not telling Rand earlier and will the guilt push her to defend Rand's position?

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:14 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of; will she feel guilty about not telling Rand earlier and will the guilt push her to defend Rand's position?

Nah, she really hasn't seen him or even ahd a chance to mention it. Rand's been very busy and so has she. Its not as if either has visited the other. Granted, the entire span of their relationship is something like 4.5 days now.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:16 PM
Story book relationship there.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:19 PM
Story book relationship there.

I've said it a million times now...Mat and Elayne make far more sense than Mat & Tuon or Rand & Elayne.

Mat is Better
11-12-2010, 12:23 PM
I don't hate Elayne, I just hate reading about Elayne. :p

WinespringBrother
11-12-2010, 12:23 PM
your sig is sending mixed messages :p

Elayne still needs to do something MOA to catch up with Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Perrin, Rand, Lan, Mat, etc...

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:26 PM
your sig is sending mixed messages :p

Elayne still needs to do something MOA to catch up with Nynaeve, Egwene, Moiraine, Perrin, Rand, Lan, Mat, etc...

Well, she needs common sense but she's a good girl overall. There's potential there. The thing I really like about her is that she's still Elayne to her friends, not "Queen of Andor". She's only arrogant when she needs to be and she APOLOGIZED to Mat unlike a certain other young female that was rescued by him.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 12:38 PM
Mat's saved her ass so many times he should have diplomat status in Caemlyn by now. I want to like Elayne but pregnancy and Andoran Nobility Syndrome is preventing me. She used to be so cool...

WinespringBrother
11-12-2010, 12:46 PM
Well, she needs common sense but she's a good girl overall. There's potential there. The thing I really like about her is that she's still Elayne to her friends, not "Queen of Andor". She's only arrogant when she needs to be and she APOLOGIZED to Mat unlike a certain other young female that was rescued by him.

She's ok, just not my favorite by a long shot. IMO she has been somewhat overshadowed by Nynaeve during their travels together, and while she has taken the thrones of Andor and Cairhien, she hasn't done much that is useful with her new roles yet (obviously since she hasn't been on-screen a lot, but still). She did call out Perrin on his rebellion, which was in her right as Queen, but not justified totally since Perrin had to raise his own army to defend his home town. At least she came to an amicable agreement for the disposition of the 2 Rivers and its Steward.

What I'd like to see from her is to have the battle-crazy Green within express herself during the Last Battle, though that may not be easy with her Saidar difficulties. The one who takes on the Black Ajah, or rushes to the battle lines giving orders, or frees damane. I like that Elayne better than Daes Daemar Elayne. (heh, that sounds like the action figures one of the NY Tower Guards created)

Davian93
11-12-2010, 12:51 PM
Mat's saved her ass so many times he should have diplomat status in Caemlyn by now. I want to like Elayne but pregnancy and Andoran Nobility Syndrome is preventing me. She used to be so cool...

Well, her plan to unite Cairhien and Andor was pretty brilliant. Of course, she almost died by sitting on the Sun Throne but overall, it was a good plan that doubled her nation's strength. Reining in Perrin & the Two Rivers was pretty good too. She's basically the 2nd most powerful monarch in Randland behind Tuon at this point.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 12:56 PM
I don't hate Elayne, I just hate reading about Elayne. :p

I just dislike reading Brandon Sanderson's interpretation of Elayne's character in TofM book. :p

Icarium
11-12-2010, 12:58 PM
The plan might be brilliant or not but its timing is ridiculous. She will have enough time to get a personal union with Cairhien...if she survives the Last Battle. If she doesn't survive she is just losing her time and Cairhien will be back to being independent (assuming Elayne's death doesn't coincide with DO's victory, of course). It would have been different if Cairhien wasn't already following Rand but as things are this subplot makes precious little sense to me.

I liked Elayne until her succession plot line began. Now that was some mind-numbingly boring stuff.

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 12:59 PM
The plan might be brilliant or not but its timing is ridiculous. She will have enough time to get a personal union with Cairhien...if she survives the Last Battle. If she doesn't survive she is just losing her time and Cairhien will be back to being independent (assuming Elayne's death doesn't coincide with DO's victory, of course). It would have been different if Cairhien wasn't already following Rand but as things are this subplot makes precious little sense to me.

I liked Elayne until her succession plot line began. Now that was some mind-numbingly boring stuff.

Seriously. Maybe she'll pull a Perrin and be fun and exciting again. More likely she'll take a bath and get caught in a trap everyone warned her about.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 01:00 PM
What Felix said. And I can't believe I just said that. Cair and Andor together is good in theory, I just hate how she thinks about it. It's all, I must be the most powerful ruler. I must offset Rand's power bloc, yada yada. It's like she sold her soul to politics.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:00 PM
The plan might be brilliant or not but its timing is ridiculous. She will have enough time to get a personal union with Cairhien...if she survives the Last Battle. If she doesn't survive she is just losing her time and Cairhien will be back to being independent (assuming Elayne's death doesn't coincide with DO's victory, of course). It would have been different if Cairhien wasn't already following Rand but as things are this subplot makes precious little sense to me.

I liked Elayne until her succession plot line began. Now that was some mind-numbingly boring stuff.

Well, Cairhien needed an actual ruler. For one, their throne has been vacant for nearly 2 years now. Dobraine, the Steward, has been gone for months and 2 unaffiliated AS are running the show. Rand wanted Elayne to take the throne, she has a very good claim to it and now two powerful nations are united under one banner. Its a good thing and its good that it happened BEFORE the Last Battle so Rand can sign off on it and bless it before his death.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:01 PM
What Felix said. And I can't believe I just said that. Cair and Andor together is good in theory, I just hate how she thinks about it. It's all, I must be the most powerful ruler. I must offset Rand's power bloc, yada yada. It's like she sold her soul to politics.

She's a queen...she HAS to think that way.

Icarium
11-12-2010, 01:02 PM
Then again, Rand's support might turn out to be more of a curse than a blessing.

Jonai
11-12-2010, 01:03 PM
She's a queen...she HAS to think that way.

Maybe you're right, I can cry for lost innocence though.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:05 PM
Then again, Rand's support might turn out to be more of a curse than a blessing.

Well, if the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision is any indication, Rand's wishes for life after the Last Battle are taken pretty seriously. Obviously, the Dragon Peace was kept and thus his desire to see Elayne take over Cairhien would also probably be kept. One thing that is interesting is Ghealdan. Ghealdan has sworn fealty to Perrin, not Andor so it will remain an independent nation with personal ties to the High Lord/Steward of the Two Rivers but not the Queen of Andor. This could end up like England/France where the French Kings were feudal lords to the English Kings but exercised no real power over them. Its a messy situation at best...add a couple generations of distance to the original oaths and it gets even messier.

Mat is Better
11-12-2010, 01:08 PM
Well, if the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision is any indication, Rand's wishes for life after the Last Battle are taken pretty seriously. Obviously, the Dragon Peace was kept and thus his desire to see Elayne take over Cairhien would also probably be kept.
I'm assuming that will be one of Rand's conditions for participating in the "Last Battle" whatever that will be. I doubt Elayne taking power over Cairhien will be part of that negotiation.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 01:10 PM
I'm assuming that will be one of Rand's conditions for participating in the "Last Battle" whatever that will be. I doubt Elayne taking power over Cairhien will be part of that negotiation.

Not invading one's neighbors probably is though so its good that she took care of it BEFORE the meeting. Otherwise it would look like Rand was playing personal favorites by giving one of his girlfriends an exception to the rule.

dpt24
11-12-2010, 01:13 PM
I liked Elayne, but getting pregnant and becoming queen's kinda ruined her character. I could have forgiven her for KoD but she learned nothing from that, as was proven by ToM. Her Carahien Andor plan sucks, because all it's going to do is bring the Game of Houses even more into Andor. She's lucky to have Perrin, cause he and Dielyn will be the only two major nobles not trying to steal both thrones from her.

dominominic
11-12-2010, 01:15 PM
At the risk of this turning into a genuine dissection of Elayne's character I would like to say that she is a hottie.

Dig that curly blonde hair.

Mat is Better
11-12-2010, 01:18 PM
Not invading one's neighbors probably is though so its good that she took care of it BEFORE the meeting. Otherwise it would look like Rand was playing personal favorites by giving one of his girlfriends an exception to the rule.

Good point. Why do I feel like an ass? :o

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 01:39 PM
Not invading one's neighbors probably is though so its good that she took care of it BEFORE the meeting. Otherwise it would look like Rand was playing personal favorites by giving one of his girlfriends an exception to the rule.

Yeah except that she's not invading or at war in any way. She's claiming her rightful throne and she'd put it that way even post LB.

I think the timing is terrible, but I honestly can't fault her for that since there is simply no time left to wait for a good one. As much as I dislike her lately if she was ever going to rule in both countries (and I don't think she's fit for it honestly) waiting until after the LB to try to establish her throne would make for an automatic failure.

It's not violation of the dragon's peace that would be a problem (especially since she doesn't even know about it yet) simply that she would be unable to take the throne if she waited.

Mat is Better
11-12-2010, 01:49 PM
Wait. Stop confusing me. The primary threat to Elayne's throne would be from Cairhien nobles. I don't know that Rand's "Dragon Peace" would matter in the internal struggles of a nation. Surely they can choose their own governors. So maybe I stand by my original statement...

David Selig
11-12-2010, 02:19 PM
Good to see this thread. I was starting to think everyone here except me and a few others hates Elayne.

The thing I really like about her is that she's still Elayne to her friends, not "Queen of Andor".
Exactly. Unlike a certain close friend of hers who will remain unnamed...;)

Mat and Elayne make far more sense than Mat & Tuon or Rand & Elayne.
Absolutely. It's a shame it never happened.

morat'corlm
11-12-2010, 03:50 PM
As for the Elayne-Rand relationship, this explains volumes.
Elayne managed not to gape. Her knowledge of men was limited to Rand and what Lini and her mother had told her. Was Rand going to be as confusing as Mat Cauthon?She's fascinated by the pretty bad boy who broke into her house; he's fascinated by the pretty princess who was inexplicably fascinated in him.

Icarium
11-12-2010, 04:00 PM
Her knowledge of men was limited to Rand and what Lini and her mother had told her.

Does that mean that Galad and Gawyn are not men?:D

Yeah except that she's not invading or at war in any way. She's claiming her rightful throne and she'd put it that way even post LB.

Exactly.

waiting until after the LB to try to establish her throne would make for an automatic failure.

Why? If anything, if she is heroic enough in the LB, people would more likely to follow her, not to mention more likely to follow Rand's wishes after he had saved the world.

FelixPax
11-12-2010, 04:08 PM
She's a queen...she HAS to think that way.

Rand did not think THAT way about Arad Domon (TofM)
The new Rand empowered the common people of Arad Domon (TofM).

There is more than one way to rule.
Rand has learned this by TofM, Elayne has not learned fully yet.

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 04:09 PM
Why? If anything, if she is heroic enough in the LB, people would more likely to follow her, not to mention more likely to follow Rand's wishes after he had saved the world.

Right now she has Rand's support. She still suspects that he'll be dead after the LB. Once Rand dies someone WOULD seize the throne. If someone were to do that then there WOULD be a war.

If she's going to take the throne, the least bad time to do it would be now (assuming the LB will come soon, which it will). Once she's seen as an invader (which would be very easy to paint her as for a warhero of Cairhien) then her taking the throne would be unbelievably more difficult.

I think she is a terrible person and leader lately (despite being clever), but if she's gonna do it then now is the time.

morat'corlm
11-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Does that mean that Galad and Gawyn are not men?Not as men, if you know what I mean. That would just be weird. That's why she's fallen for Galad's brother.

Besides, Gawyn is at best a man-child, and until he met Berelain Galad was practically a eunuch.

Icarium
11-12-2010, 04:11 PM
Still not seeing what difference the Last battle makes regarding Elayne's invader or no invader status.

Not as men, if you know what I mean. That would just be weird. That's why she's fallen for Galad's brother.

Yes, but she doesn't have to see her brothers as men in the romantic sense in order to learn something about men by interacting with them every day. Isn't Mat supposed to have learned a lot about women by having sisters or he is just deluding himself as people in WoT are prone to when it comes to inter-gender relations? :)

tiredofbuttons
11-12-2010, 04:22 PM
Still not seeing what difference the Last battle makes regarding Elayne's invader or no invader status.

Sounds like a personal problem. Might want to get a doctor to look at it.

Which is easier:

Taking control of a country when the current ruler of the country tells you that you are the rightful ruler and states it publicly and gives you full support?

OR

Taking control of a country with no leader that is half destroyed with homecoming nobles in charge of large armies who oppose you?

Davian93
11-12-2010, 07:04 PM
Taking over Cairhien while Rand is still alive is far smarter than after he's gone and there are a dozen claimants.

Xelun
11-12-2010, 07:11 PM
Well, Cairhien needed an actual ruler. For one, their throne has been vacant for nearly 2 years now. Dobraine, the Steward, has been gone for months and 2 unaffiliated AS are running the show. Rand wanted Elayne to take the throne, she has a very good claim to it and now two powerful nations are united under one banner. Its a good thing and its good that it happened BEFORE the Last Battle so Rand can sign off on it and bless it before his death.

This. Also in the like "Elayne as a character even if she displays total lack of street smarts on occasion" camp. And on the topic of telling Rand about the kids, has she even seen him since Winter's Heart? Also, was Min so drunk that she forgot her Viewing like Aviendha and Birgitte did?

Xelun
11-12-2010, 07:15 PM
Well, if the Dragon's Peace in Avi's vision is any indication, Rand's wishes for life after the Last Battle are taken pretty seriously. Obviously, the Dragon Peace was kept and thus his desire to see Elayne take over Cairhien would also probably be kept. One thing that is interesting is Ghealdan. Ghealdan has sworn fealty to Perrin, not Andor so it will remain an independent nation with personal ties to the High Lord/Steward of the Two Rivers but not the Queen of Andor. This could end up like England/France where the French Kings were feudal lords to the English Kings but exercised no real power over them. Its a messy situation at best...add a couple generations of distance to the original oaths and it gets even messier.

The best was the fact that though the French king was technically the Duke of Normandy's feudal lord, the Duke of Normandy had the stronger position in the relationship. I've been taking a course on Medieval England this semester. Good stuff.

Davian93
11-12-2010, 07:18 PM
The best was the fact that though the French king was technically the Duke of Normandy's feudal lord, the Duke of Normandy had the stronger position in the relationship. I've been taking a course on Medieval England this semester. Good stuff.

Its one of my favorite periods of history actually.

Granted, the King of France was gonna win that battle eventually no matter what. He basically won the "hearts and minds" of the French by midway through the Hundred Years War. The English (despite being French by blood & culture) were the outside invader...the French King was not and that was all that really mattered in the long run.

Matoyak
11-12-2010, 07:26 PM
I just dislike reading Brandon Sanderson's interpretation of Elayne's character in TofM book. :pOh bull. This is the first time she's been somewhat bearable in a long time.

David Selig
11-12-2010, 07:35 PM
And on the topic of telling Rand about the kids, has she even seen him since Winter's Heart? Also, was Min so drunk that she forgot her Viewing like Aviendha and Birgitte did?
She hasn't seen him, and yeah it seems Min got so drunk she totally forgot about that viewing. Elayne probably assumes Min told him though. I wonder how Rand will react when he sees her pregnant...;)

Min, Aviendha and Birgitte must've drunk an awful lot that night. Aviendha also had memory gaps and forgot that Min told her Elayne's babies will be a girl and a boy. Most readers probably wish she had forgotten the whole Viewing. ;)

morat'corlm
11-12-2010, 07:36 PM
Oh bull. This is the first time she's been somewhat bearable in a long time.Are you sure you're not thinking of her brother?

Matoyak
11-12-2010, 07:44 PM
Are you sure you're not thinking of her brother?He did similar, yes. Now as opposed to being the most unlikable character in the series, he's simply just Egwene's warder. ~shrug~ Can't hate him anymore (and he was the only character in the series I truly hated). He's a "meh" through and through. Elayne, on the other hand, had some interesting enough parts that I wasn't almost falling asleep when reading her parts, like I was in the previous 4 or so (however many books it's been since she started taking over Andor).

Ishara
11-12-2010, 10:23 PM
Maybe though, this means that we'll finally stop hearing about the theory that Moiraine and Thom will be monarchs of Cairhien? Maybe?

Belazamon
11-13-2010, 01:28 AM
Maybe though, this means that we'll finally stop hearing about the theory that Moiraine and Thom will be monarchs of Cairhien? Maybe?
Probably not. First off, Aviendha's viewing of the future showed that Caemlyn and Cairhien were parts of different coalitions, so there's at least a possibility that Elayne won't hold onto it. Second, Terez really likes the idea of Moiraine becoming queen of Cairhien, so it'll probably keep coming up regardless. :p

Terez
11-13-2010, 01:46 AM
Probably not. First off, Aviendha's viewing of the future showed that Caemlyn and Cairhien were parts of different coalitions, so there's at least a possibility that Elayne won't hold onto it. Second, Terez really likes the idea of Moiraine becoming queen of Cairhien, so it'll probably keep coming up regardless. :p
I do quite like it. Also, why was the chapter named Court of the Sun? It was only mentioned that once. I doubt the chapter title was just a red herring to make us think it was about something else. Perhaps Elayne's attempt to make an Empire was part of the problem. I suspect it all goes back to the fact that the Peace won't hold so long as the Aiel and the Seanchan remain hostile forces; the best solution is undoubtedly giving Tuon her Consolidation in exchange for the abolition of slavery.

But Elayne's taking the throne was by necessity done in a rather abrupt and anti-climactic way - it was staged very much like a hostile takeover - and that is part of what makes me suspect that it's not over yet.

One thing worth noting is that Moiraine does have feelings for her home country, and she will not likely be pleased at what Elayne has done. Rand never mentioned who he intended for the throne until after Moiraine was gone, quite possibly because Moiraine would have objected. She was indifferent to who took the throne so long as it was one Cairhienin or another, but Elayne is basically threatening to subsume Cairhien into Andor, giving Cairhienin land and titles to Andoran scum. She might have an opinion on that. :)

Besides, the Court of the Sun needs a good bard.

David Selig
11-13-2010, 04:19 AM
It's made clear in "New Spring" that Moiraine didn't want to become a Queen of Cairhien, in fact really hated the possibility and was ready to do almost anything to avoid it - "The Sun Throne would be a sentence for life". She likes her freedom to move around and do what's necessary, I don't see her willing to get tied up to one place.

We get additional confirmation of this in ToM when she said to Thom "I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon. I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."

Rand didn't mention who he intended to take the Sun Throne before Moiraine was gone, but I think she knew. He didn't gave the throne to any of the high nobles of Cairhien and Tear which were with him at the time, and said it was intended for another. Given that Elayne had a strong claim due to Taringail being her father, and that Moiraine knew Rand loved her, she most probably figured out his intentions. Yet there's no indication that she objected to them.

Terez
11-13-2010, 04:37 AM
It's made clear in "New Spring" that Moiraine didn't want to become a Queen of Cairhien
And Siuan didn't want to be Amyrlin. Also, a short Twitter convo I had with Peter (from when 'Court of the Sun' was revealed as a chapter title - made me suspect Galad since I knew Moiraine wouldn't get back in time to claim the throne in this book, or at least that it was unlikely):

Terez on Twitter (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/27412941639)
*sigh* I don't WANT Galad to be king of Cairhien. MOIRAINE AND THOM. But I can see it happening...
Peter (http://twitter.com/#%21/PeterAhlstrom/status/27413341091)
I like the Moiraine & Thom theory myself. :)
Terez (http://twitter.com/#%21/Terez27/status/27413608949)
Yay! I don't know how to take that, since you've read the book. lol. But at least you appreciate the awesomeness of it.
Peter (http://twitter.com/#%21/PeterAhlstrom/status/27449523521)
I've had the theory myself before. Before I read the book.
Luckers (http://twitter.com/#%21/WoTLuckers/status/27436768956)
Really? I mean, poor Moiraine... escaping Finnland to be forced into a job she loathes?
Peter (http://twitter.com/#%21/PeterAhlstrom/status/27449615445)
People who WANT to rule almost never should.That turned out to be very similar to something Perrin said in the book:

TITLE - Towers of Midnight
CHAPTER: 40 - A Making

"You said something to me once, Elyas," Perrin said. "You told me that if I ever grew to like the axe, I should throw it away."

"That I did."

"I think it applies to leadership, too. The men who don't want titles should be the ones who get them, it seems. So long as I keep that in mind, I think I might do all right."

in fact really hated the possibility and was ready to do almost anything to avoid it
She feared the throne for a few specific reasons, none of which involved a distaste for the actual job.

1. She feared the mobs that she felt were an inevitable result of an Aes Sedai queen. Elayne has set a precedent, so there is no longer a reason to fear them.

2. She feared being a puppet of the Hall. At the time, it was a justified fear. Now, it's not a problem.

3. She feared that the job would make her 'stoop to assassination and worse' to keep the Cairhienin in line. Now, not only does she have her legendary awesomeness to keep them in line, along with her own skill in the Game along with Thom's, she stooped to such things a long time ago simply by virtue of being Aes Sedai.

4. She had important things to do, namely finding Rand. Now she's found him, and he needs someone he can trust to rule Cairhien. Elayne works in a way, but Moiraine won't like seeing her nation absorbed by another, and I doubt she'll let it pass quietly.

She likes her freedom to move around and do what's necessary, I don't see her willing to get tied up to one place.
I don't see why not. What pressing concerns does she have after the Last Battle?

We get additional confirmation of this in ToM when she said to Thom "I never have spent much of my time in Tar Valon. I think we shall enjoy traveling together, Thom Merrilin. Should we survive the months to come."
Pretty sure BS put that in there because that is what everyone expects. It's a throwaway line, and a red herring.

Rand didn't mention who he intended to take the Sun Throne before Moiraine was gone, but I think she knew.
There's nothing to support that assumption.

David Selig
11-13-2010, 05:12 AM
So you think Moiraine would try to take the Sun Throne away from Elayne? Wouldn't Thom object to this? Egwene too?

Or do you mean if Elayne dies or goes away with Rand after the Last Battle?

There's nothing to support that assumption.
There's no clear textual evidence, but it's an logical conclusion for Moiraine to make from what she knew at the time. Who else could Rand have in mind for the Sun Throne?

Now she's found him, and he needs someone he can trust to rule Cairhien. Elayne works in a way, but Moiraine won't like seeing her nation absorbed by another, and I doubt she'll let it pass quietly.

Elayne doesn't want Andor to absorb Cairhien, this was made quite clear several times in ToM. For example here:

ToM, Ch. 45

"True. But you must to find a way to take the Sun Throne without letting it look as if Andor is subsuming Cairhien. The nobility there might accept you as their queen, but only if they see themselves as equals to the Andorans. Otherwise, the moment they're out of your sight, the schemes will grow like yeast in a warm bowl of water."

"They will be the equals of the Andorans," Elayne said.
Elayne wants to establish closer ties between the two nations, which is part of the reason why she gave to some of the Cairhien nobles lands in Andor and vice versa. But she doesn't want to make Cairhien lose its identity as a nation. Her plan is for Andor and Cairhien to remain two separate nations with a common monarch, not an unusual arrangement in a feudal society.

Terez
11-13-2010, 05:24 AM
So you think Moiraine would try to take the Sun Throne away from Elayne?
Probably not just like that. She'll likely just object to the joining of the nations, and then she'll be left with the cold hard fact that the only way to prevent it would be to take the throne herself.

Wouldn't Thom object to this? Egwene too?
Why would they?

Elayne doesn't want Andor to absorb Cairhien, this was made quite clear several times in ToM.
What she wants is irrelevant if she's taking the throne - her holding both thrones threatens to destroy the culture of both nation, assimilating them. What she's done with the untrustworthy nobles, even more so.

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 01:17 PM
But Elayne's taking the throne was by necessity done in a rather abrupt and anti-climactic way - it was staged very much like a hostile takeover - and that is part of what makes me suspect that it's not over yet.

One thing worth noting is that Moiraine does have feelings for her home country, and she will not likely be pleased at what Elayne has done. Rand never mentioned who he intended for the throne until after Moiraine was gone, quite possibly because Moiraine would have objected. She was indifferent to who took the throne so long as it was one Cairhienin or another, but Elayne is basically threatening to subsume Cairhien into Andor, giving Cairhienin land and titles to Andoran scum. She might have an opinion on that. :)

I also think there is something intrinsically wrong about Elayne holding both thrones when she only feels affection for one realm. Cairhien is like the ugly step-child she is pretending to like. The arrangement feels "off."

Icarium
11-13-2010, 01:38 PM
What she wants is irrelevant if she's taking the throne - her holding both thrones threatens to destroy the culture of both nation, assimilating them.

Or make them into a stronger state as happened with Spain or Great Britain which are the results of personal unions.

Perhaps Elayne's attempt to make an Empire was part of the problem.

Or maybe Elayne died soon after or at the Last Battle and the union fell apart without her.

Terez
11-13-2010, 10:09 PM
I also think there is something intrinsically wrong about Elayne holding both thrones when she only feels affection for one realm. Cairhien is like the ugly step-child she is pretending to like. The arrangement feels "off."
She has some affection for Cairhien, but it is rather like a step-child sort of affection. That's another thing that bothers me about it. She flat-out admitted in this book that she was only taking Cairhien because Rand gave it to her, so nyah-nyah to those who said she had an actual interest in it beyond that. She would never have claimed it without Rand asking her to, and from what she says in this book, she probably would have had difficulties if she'd attempted it without Rand's support.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 10:25 PM
She flat-out admitted in this book that she was only taking Cairhien because Rand gave it to her, so nyah-nyah to those who said she had an actual interest in it beyond that.Where?

Kimon
11-13-2010, 11:03 PM
She has some affection for Cairhien, but it is rather like a step-child sort of affection. That's another thing that bothers me about it. She flat-out admitted in this book that she was only taking Cairhien because Rand gave it to her, so nyah-nyah to those who said she had an actual interest in it beyond that. She would never have claimed it without Rand asking her to, and from what she says in this book, she probably would have had difficulties if she'd attempted it without Rand's support.

Ch 11:

Elayne loved him. But she didn't intend to see Andor become merely another part of the Dragon's empire. Besides, if Rand were to die at Shayol Ghul, who would rule that empire? It could break up, but she worried that someone- Darlin, perhaps- would be strong enough to hold it together. If so, Andor would stand alone between an aggressive Seanchan empire to the southwest, Rand's successor to the northwest and the southeast and the Borderlanders united together in the north and northeast.

She could not let that happen. The woman in her cringed to think of planning for Rand's death, but the Queen could not be so squeamish. The world was changing.

"I realize it will be difficult to administer two nations," Elayne said. "But I must hold Cairhien. For the good of both thrones."

The fact that Rand made clear to everyone that he intended Cairhien for her just strengthens her own claim, but she clearly has a practical, and personal, reason for wanting to make that claim. She wants to ensure that Andor is strengthened by adding Cairhien to it, so that she, and her heirs, are strong enough to stand against both the Seanchan and the potential threat from someone like Darlin, as a potential successor state to the Dragon's Empire. It's essentially upon this same basis that she comes to her arrangement with Perrin also.

Terez
11-14-2010, 12:07 AM
The fact that Rand made clear to everyone that he intended Cairhien for her just strengthens her own claim, but she clearly has a practical, and personal, reason for wanting to make that claim.
She feels for them because they are humans. But she is Andoran through and through, and the only reason she is taking the throne is because there isn't anyone else.

She wants to ensure that Andor is strengthened by adding Cairhien to it
The same can be achieved by strong alliances. Empire-building isn't necessary.

dpt24
11-14-2010, 12:12 AM
I think Elayne's plan to get Carahien is awful. She'll just bring Das Daemer into Andor and turn it into another Carahien. So hopefully Moraine or Galad do end up taking the throne, or Perrin and Faile may want to split off with the Two Rivers simply to keep out of the politics.

Kimon
11-14-2010, 12:22 AM
She feels for them because they are humans. But she is Andoran through and through, and the only reason she is taking the throne is because there isn't anyone else.


The same can be achieved by strong alliances. Empire-building isn't necessary.

Why bother with alliances when you can absorb or annex?

I'll agree with you on the fact that she is clearly Andor-centric. This gambit, and her rapprochement with Perrin's nascent Manetheren, is clearly designed with Andor's interests primarily at heart. If Aviendha's visions of the potential future carry any actuality this clearly reinforces this, as in her Oncala-vision she visits Queen Talana, who is called Queen of Andor, not of Andor-Cairhien, and Talana's court is at Caemlyn. Assuming that in that version of the future, that Andor still ruled over Cairhien, it would seem that they literally ruled over Cairhien, which seemingly was just a province of a greater Andor. Too bad if true. If Elayne really wanted to achieve a unified state that encompassed Andor, Cairhien, and Manetheren, it would seem more practical to choose a new imperial capital, like Aringill, and choose a new name (or an old name) to refer to her new empire.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 02:20 AM
The wild card in this discussion is if Caemlyn gets destroyed. I take it most people don't think this will happen but if it does, then this whole issue has to be re-examined.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 02:31 AM
On the other hand, in Aviendha's vision, it was Cairhien that was burned.

Still, "Court of the Sun" in a chapter describing the consequences of the Aiel betraying the Queen of Andor does seem to imply some connection, and If Andor entered the war, the other nations would as well, particularly those in the Pact of the Griffin and those in the Court of the Sun. They looked to the Andoran Queen much as the other Aiel clans looked to Oncala.remains quite suggestive; the White Lion of Andor has already mixed with the Red Eagle of Manetheren in a 'griffin pact', so it's not a stretch that the Court of the Sun is a unified Andor/Cairhien polity. Not that her vision is prophetic.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 02:36 AM
On the other hand, in Aviendha's vision, it was Cairhien that was burned.

Still, "Court of the Sun" in a chapter describing the consequences of the Aiel betraying the Queen of Andor does seem to imply some connection, and remains quite suggestive; the White Lion of Andor mixed with the Red Eagle of Manetheren has already come to pass, so it's not a stretch that the Court of the Sun is a unified Andor/Cairhien polity. Not that her vision is prophetic.

To be truthful, I was going to mention the vision but in the end decided not to. I rather hate future viewings of this sort which is why I'm increasingly hoping that Min will die already. For example, if we know already that Caemlyn is going to survive, then there goes all the dramatic tension from the cliffhanger to ToM. Isn't it enough already that we know none of the main characters will die off permanently?

David Selig
11-14-2010, 10:05 AM
I was rereading the first chapters of TSR yesterday and paid special attention to the interaction between Elayne and Moiraine. It struck me that Elayne doesn't seem to know that Moiraine is her aunt. This is really strange - you'd think someone from her family would've told her she has an aunt which is called Moiraine and is an Aes Sedai. Moiraine has distanced herself from the Damodred family and doesn't use the family name, but the fact that she belongs to it is not really a secret - Thom knew, Elaida knew, Taringail must've known, etc.

I checked the database to see if anyone has asked RJ about it, but found nothing.

Anyway, since we know Elayne's babies will be a boy and a girl, my theory is that the boy will be born first and thus will be the heir to the Sun Throne, and the girl will inherit the Lion Throne. This will explain the Aviedha's vision, in which Andor is prosperous and strong, yet the Queen of Andor doesn't rule Cairhien. There's also a mention in LoC "Taringail Damodred wanted more than anything else in the world to see his daughter Queen of Andor and his son King of Cairhien.", which could be a hint from Jordan about a really similar thing happening a generation later.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 11:18 AM
It struck me that Elayne doesn't seem to know that Moiraine is her aunt.

Speak for yourself; she's not exactly the sharpest tool in the shed. Personally, I was floored that she knew where babies come from; I thought that was totally out of character. :D

Davian93
11-14-2010, 05:16 PM
I was rereading the first chapters of TSR yesterday and paid special attention to the interaction between Elayne and Moiraine. It struck me that Elayne doesn't seem to know that Moiraine is her aunt. This is really strange - you'd think someone from her family would've told her she has an aunt which is called Moiraine and is an Aes Sedai. Moiraine has distanced herself from the Damodred family and doesn't use the family name, but the fact that she belongs to it is not really a secret - Thom knew, Elaida knew, Taringail must've known, etc.

I checked the database to see if anyone has asked RJ about it, but found nothing.

Anyway, since we know Elayne's babies will be a boy and a girl, my theory is that the boy will be born first and thus will be the heir to the Sun Throne, and the girl will inherit the Lion Throne. This will explain the Aviedha's vision, in which Andor is prosperous and strong, yet the Queen of Andor doesn't rule Cairhien. There's also a mention in LoC "Taringail Damodred wanted more than anything else in the world to see his daughter Queen of Andor and his son King of Cairhien.", which could be a hint from Jordan about a really similar thing happening a generation later.

That's why Andor's reverse Salic Law sucks. Elayne can't possibly do away with 1000 years of tradition/law and having a male born first automatically splits the kingdoms back up again.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 03:27 AM
That's why Andor's reverse Salic Law sucks. Elayne can't possibly do away with 1000 years of tradition/law and having a male born first automatically splits the kingdoms back up again.Well, there was King Gaebril followed by the Dragon Interregnum, so a case could be made for the tradition being broken anyway.

Andrac
11-15-2010, 03:48 AM
I'm really sad perrin and faile didn't split off and recreate mantheran. It would have been pretty cool since then they could have taken land above the two rivers where its all just wilderness and no actual nations at the moment. Plus they would have an alliance with or a union with gheldahan as well to make a pretty big nation.

All I know is if I was them and the queen of andor threatened to execute me for being a "rebel" after the queens had ignored the two rivers for 200-300 years, I would have told her to go fuck herself and raised the mantheran banner again.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 04:14 AM
That's why Andor's reverse Salic Law sucks. Elayne can't possibly do away with 1000 years of tradition/law and having a male born first automatically splits the kingdoms back up again.After being queen for 400 years herself, I'd imagine she could change succession laws however she wished.

If she does end up dying shortly after the last battle and her twins succeed her in each throne, at the least the countries would be ruled by members of House Trakand. That might inhibit the constant skirmishing that seems to have characterized Andor/Cairhien relations basically forever, at least. Or it might not, and the situation's no worse than normal.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 04:21 AM
All I know is if I was them and the queen of andor threatened to execute me for being a "rebel" after the queens had ignored the two rivers for 200-300 years, I would have told her to go fuck herself and raised the mantheran banner again.But doing so while you are in her palace, surrounded by her guards, with your own army camped way outside the city, may not be a particularly good idea.
Plenty of time later to hoist a flag.

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 04:31 AM
Nah Perrin is a good two rivers man of his word. He told Tylee he wouldn't raise the banner of Manetheren so I don't think he intended to do so whatever Elayne said.

Helloes
11-15-2010, 06:05 AM
If the Two Rivers had decided on independence they would have left themself with no powerful allies and the Seanchan next door. Ghealdan isn't exactly a power-house after the Prophet and Faile's relations with Saldaea are practically useless due to the distance involved. Rand wouldn’t help him either since he doesn’t want any more killings. Perrin could use his army to force his position, but all that would accomplish is weaken both kingdoms in a futile war that would just invite the Seanchan in to pick up the pieces. All this of course, is assuming that Perrin still has an army after the Last Battle. It’s a lot more likely that it will just disband after the deed is done and he will be a self-proclaimed king of farmers.

If she actually had went along with what Perrin (or rather Faile) suggested, to make him a High Lord of the Two Rivers, above all other nobles – she would have another succession on her head because all other nobles would be after her blood.

No, Elayne’s compromise was the best that could be achieved and the “tone” she achieved it in was the least of what Perrin deserved after the mess he made and left her to clean up. Perrin isn’t the one who is going to have to convince every, single, noble that already pretty much hates her guts that this isn’t giving in to rebels – which if it wasn’t obvious sets a terrible precedent for others to do what Perrin did and the next time, they most likely won’t have as noble intentions as he had either.

The funny part about all this is that it’s really Verin’s fault for telling the Two Rivers people about the Red Eagle banner. Without it, Perrin could have been received as a hero.

--

Now on topic; Elayne is one of my favourite characters. She’s unusable kind and fair and for someone with such a sheltered upbringing amazingly open-minded about people. Compare her to for example Nalesean and the differences are shocking. Of course she has bad sides, but I think it’s all down to the expectations people has on her or what she perceives they have on her. All Queens of Andor have been brave, thus she has to be brave and how do you prove you are? By taking risks – and this is where her one glaring flaw comes out: she isn’t ta’veren. She can’t get away with the same bullshit Rand, Mat & Perrin do on a day to day basis. There’s a perfect example of this in ToM. Mat’s “plan” to kill the Gholam, it’s such an unlikely sequence of events that… well I don’t know what to compare it to. It’s just plain dumb. Elayne’s plan on interrogating the Black Ajah disguised as a Forsaken however, is fairly straight forward with obvious pay-offs and minor risks (she kept a gateway open with guards on the other side). Of course it all goes wrong because somehow her plan perfectly coincides with a jailbreak. If she had come ten minutes before or after, nothing would have happened. If this would have been any of the ta’veren, this would have worked without a hitch. But instead we have “Elayne being stupid”.

thedragonreformed
11-15-2010, 09:42 AM
No, Elayne’s compromise was the best that could be achieved and the “tone” she achieved it in was the least of what Perrin deserved after the mess he made and left her to clean up.

I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the mess he made". Surely you don't mean the defence of the Two Rivers against Trollocs and Whitecloaks?

Raising the banner of Manetheren was a mess? Maybe it made the Crown of Andor uncomfortable, but hey, why should the Two Rivers people care about the Crown which did not care about them either?

The real mess was, as Perrin mentioned, that the Crown did not help against the Trollocs AND that the Crown did not even know about the Trollocs.

Elayne's compromise may have been the best outcome, but the "tone" she achieved it could have been much better.

Its like what Stannis Baratheon said in "A Storm of Swords" - "I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

The Angry Druid
11-15-2010, 09:53 AM
Aside from Elayne's blinding disregard for her own safety and blind belief in Min's visions, she's pretty intelligent. I like her.

She's loyal and always tries to do the right thing, she's a lot more like Galad then she likes to admit.

Since she's been preggers, she's really been taken out of the "action" side of things, for the most part, with it's effect on her channeling.

As for her needing to do something awesome. She's already secured the crowns of two nations, created alliances (with Perrin/Alliandre/Faile) to secure both, and secured the Dragons. She's rediscovered how to make ter'angreal. And I think the discovery that she needs saidin to make them work properly is not too far away.

finn
11-15-2010, 11:34 AM
Raising the banner of Manetheren was a mess? Maybe it made the Crown of Andor uncomfortable, but hey, why should the Two Rivers people care about the Crown which did not care about them either?

The real mess was, as Perrin mentioned, that the Crown did not help against the Trollocs AND that the Crown did not even know about the Trollocs.

Elayne's compromise may have been the best outcome, but the "tone" she achieved it could have been much better.
This.

While I acknowledge Elayne's difficulties, she had no call treating Perrin and the Two Rivers as rebels. They earned the right to run their own affairs after the trolloc attacks. Had Perrin truly been the rebel she treated him as, she'd have had a huge mess on her hands.

There’s a perfect example of this in ToM. Mat’s “plan” to kill the Gholam, it’s such an unlikely sequence of events that… well I don’t know what to compare it to. It’s just plain dumb. Elayne’s plan on interrogating the Black Ajah disguised as a Forsaken however, is fairly straight forward with obvious pay-offs and minor risks (she kept a gateway open with guards on the other side). Of course it all goes wrong because somehow her plan perfectly coincides with a jailbreak. If she had come ten minutes before or after, nothing would have happened. If this would have been any of the ta’veren, this would have worked without a hitch. But instead we have “Elayne being stupid”.
Mat had soldiers & kin for backup and the crucial part of that plan had Elayne's own input. Elayne on her part co-ordinated with nobody. Sorry, but it was rather stupid of her.

I think it was some kind of ta'vereness that put her in a situation where she could conveniently disrupt the jailbreak, causing the deaths of those black sisters. She didn't need to be ta'veren for her plan to work though, she should have simply exercised her powers as a queen. Not notifying the guards even though they're on the other side of the door was foolhardy. Had they been alive, they could very well have discovered her in the cell and attacked. She went in with zero backups, behind the back of her own warder. And she was pregnant, with a self-acknowledged difficulty to channel. Again, I apologize because I usually like Elayne but that was the stupidest part of the whole book. I'd go so far as to say it was an insult to her usual character.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 11:42 AM
While I acknowledge Elayne's difficulties, she had no call treating Perrin and the Two Rivers as rebels. They earned the right to run their own affairs after the trolloc attacks. Had Perrin truly been the rebel she treated him as, she'd have had a huge mess on her hands.

Sure she did. The Two Rivers was still part of Andor...whether or not they exercised that claim. Elayne handled that entire scene masterfully. Her turning him into a Steward rather than High Lord was brilliant. Also, now Rand is officially Lord of the Two Rivers so any of his heirs could theoretically disinherit Perrin or Perrin's heirs if they felt like it (Think Gondor).

Elayne handled that entire issue quite well when you think of the broader political concerns she has as a result of her new throne.

Grig
11-15-2010, 12:39 PM
I rather hate future viewings of this sort which is why I'm increasingly hoping that Min will die already. For example, if we know already that Caemlyn is going to survive, then there goes all the dramatic tension from the cliffhanger to ToM. Isn't it enough already that we know none of the main characters will die off permanently?

That's just silly. You want the seer to die because they kill dramatic tension, when a large part of your disgruntlement is the lack of dramatic tension completely separate from seer characters that you bring to the table assuming main characters will not die? I mean, I think the latter likely, but your preconceptions on what will or will not happen already constrain the possible suspense much more than any in-universe prophecies could. There are no viewings that say no main characters will die off permanently, and indeed viewings only two generations in the future show none of the players one would expect to see present if they do in fact live through the main series (namely, pretty much everyone but Mat and Tuon).

Helloes
11-15-2010, 12:55 PM
This.

While I acknowledge Elayne's difficulties, she had no call treating Perrin and the Two Rivers as rebels. They earned the right to run their own affairs after the trolloc attacks. Had Perrin truly been the rebel she treated him as, she'd have had a huge mess on her hands.
It doesn't matter what the Two Rivers folk are or isn't. Everyone in Andor, everyone with power at the very least perceives them as rebels. That means they practically are for all intents and purposes. A warm welcome would invite rebellion all over her kingdom from far less noble men than Perrin. An acceptance of the "High Lord" offer would mean another succession by nobles who in one day lost most of their power to what they perceive as a rebel. Even now with the compromise she is going to have to work hard to convince them she isn't giving up land, but gaining a powerful ally. This will probably take several years of work on her side, and practically none on Perrin's. This is what I refer to "the mess" he created for her. If only Verin hadn't told the Two Rivers folk about the banner, this would all have gone a lot better - I think both sides would agree with that.


Mat had soldiers & kin for backup and the crucial part of that plan had Elayne's own input. Elayne on her part co-ordinated with nobody. Sorry, but it was rather stupid of her.

I think it was some kind of ta'vereness that put her in a situation where she could conveniently disrupt the jailbreak, causing the deaths of those black sisters. She didn't need to be ta'veren for her plan to work though, she should have simply exercised her powers as a queen. Not notifying the guards even though they're on the other side of the door was foolhardy. Had they been alive, they could very well have discovered her in the cell and attacked. She went in with zero backups, behind the back of her own warder. And she was pregnant, with a self-acknowledged difficulty to channel. Again, I apologize because I usually like Elayne but that was the stupidest part of the whole book. I'd go so far as to say it was an insult to her usual character.
She sent some guards to notify the kin outside, she had more guards standing in the dark room at the other side of the gateway that she still maintained and the difficulty in channelling isn't actually a difficulty in channelling, it is a difficulty in embracing Saidar, once she actually has however - there is no issue.

Not notifying Birgitte was probably the only "bad" thing she did, but if she had notified her - she wouldn't even have known the Darkfriends REALLY wanted Mat, because who would honestly believe a Forsaken with a pet glued to her side? Besides, what could she have done other than get killed? And she would have, Mellar had a serious grudge with her.

Mat's plan on the other hand is a plan of low probability followed by even lower probability, yes he had extra guards but in reality they were practically useless. Have you ever thought what would have happened if the Gholam refused to enter that specific building, and inside that specific building the specific corridor with a gateway in it? Mat clearly hadn't - some great plan that.

finn
11-15-2010, 01:01 PM
Sure she did. The Two Rivers was still part of Andor...whether or not they exercised that claim. Elayne handled that entire scene masterfully. Her turning him into a Steward rather than High Lord was brilliant. Also, now Rand is officially Lord of the Two Rivers so any of his heirs could theoretically disinherit Perrin or Perrin's heirs if they felt like it (Think Gondor).
Don't think it works that way. The dragon himself would have to return and make the claim on the Two Rivers, if you assume the legal terms they settled on with respect to tax exemption. He's a lone figurehead, a legend based in prophecy and rebirth, his heirs have no claim then.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 01:11 PM
If only Verin hadn't told the Two Rivers folk about the banner, this would all have gone a lot better - I think both sides would agree with that.Politically yes. On the other hand, the news of rebellion caused Morgase to flee Caemlyn, which caused Rahvin to take the throne himself and the rumors he'd killed her, which caused Rand to kill Rahvin immediately rather than taking the bait about Sammael, etc., etc.

There were no harmless alternatives there to be taken.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 01:12 PM
his heirs have no claim then.Guess who his heirs are.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 01:20 PM
Don't think it works that way. The dragon himself would have to return and make the claim on the Two Rivers, if you assume the legal terms they settled on with respect to tax exemption. He's a lone figurehead, a legend based in prophecy and rebirth, his heirs have no claim then.

It depends on how Elayne writes it. If she does it correctly, then her own children will inherit it as they will be born before Avi or Min's potential kids.

thedragonreformed
11-15-2010, 01:26 PM
A warm welcome would invite rebellion all over her kingdom from far less noble men than Perrin.
An acceptance of the "High Lord" offer would mean another succession by nobles who in one day lost most of their power to what they percieve as a rebel. Even now with the compromise she is going to have to work hard to convince them she isn't giving up land, but gaining a powerful ally. This will probably take several years of work on her side, and practically none on Perrin's. This is what I refer to "the mess" he created for her. If only Verin hadn't told the Two Rivers folk about the banner, this would all have gone a lot better - I think both sides would agree with that.


Like I said before, the outcome was the best possible one, but her attitude with Perrin and Faile during their private conversation was uncalled for.

As for the mess, extra political work for Elayne VS survival of Two Rivers? Easy choice there. Also keep in mind that had The Two Rivers fallen, there would have been a Trolloc army waltzing through interior Andor WITH Rahvin in charge. Elayne and Andor owe a lot to Perrin and The Two Rivers.

As for the banner - they were simple village folk fighting against Trollocs and Fades. They needed inspiration, motivation etc. Nothing quite like raising the banner of Manetheren to get them all fired up. More importantly, what other banner could have they raised? That of Andor - a nation that simply does not care? "We are the Queen's men! Though she knows not we exist! For the Crown! For everything it has not done for us!" :rolleyes: Not quite the same as rallying to the red-eagle banner, "thorn to the Dark One and a bramble to his hand"

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 01:32 PM
But as Morgase thinks, the banner itself is a declaration of war. To raise the flag of Manetheren is to proclaim that Manetheren exists, which is to say that quite a chunk of Andor – and not just the Two Rivers, but those mines in the Mountains of Mist around Baerlon which are indisputably Andoran, and all the way east to Whitebridge – is no longer part of Andor and in fact never was, that Andoran rule is illegitimate, and that Andorans there are foreign occupiers. It is not and cannot be merely motivational and self-contained in that way.

The same reason Balwer thinks it's such a good disguise for Perrin when he's in Ghealdan is exactly the reason it draws attention like a forest fire when he's in a less, um, failed state.

Helloes
11-15-2010, 01:34 PM
Her tone was appropriate considering that she gave him an offer for pardon - which would have allowed her to save face, which he rejected. Instead, he pushed on or rather Faile pushed on with the High Lord idea, and kept antagonizing Elayne all the way through their interview. She was hardly alone in the harsh tone department here.

As for the Banner, the Wolfhead would have been enough I reckon.

a small note: I'm not saying I wished the Two Rivers to fall, I'm saying that Perrin "allowing" the Manetheron banner made a volatile situation even more volatile.

thedragonreformed
11-15-2010, 01:52 PM
You know, I skimmed through most of Elayne's arcs post book 4 and most of Perrin's arc from book 7 to book 12. And there was no question of ever re-reading it. But here I am, reading and re-reading and re-reading a chapter with BOTH of them. "The Wheel weaves as the Wheel wills" indeed! :D

She gave them a boon, to which they requested a private meeting to discuss said boon. After settling down in a private chamber, she very pleasantly asked why she should not execute them for treason. I believe there was some very amiable snapping later on also. But no part of this discussion was in front of the other nobles - Elenia and co.

All I am saying is, Perrin and Faile came in wanting to settle things peacefully. They were negotiating. They suggested High Lord, Morgase suggested Steward - done! This could have been done without threats and rudeness( Where's Cadsuane when you need her to teach civility?).

The Wolfhead banner is enough now, but it would have had little resonance with the people back in TSR.

finn
11-15-2010, 02:17 PM
If only Verin hadn't told the Two Rivers folk about the banner, this would all have gone a lot better - I think both sides would agree with that.
Why blame Verin alone, didn't Moiraine start that in EotW? How long would they have remained ignorant of their history?

She sent some guards to notify the kin outside, she had more guards standing in the dark room at the other side of the gateway that she still maintained and the difficulty in channelling isn't actually a difficulty in channelling, it is a difficulty in embracing saidin, once she actually has however - there is no issue.
She didn't wait for confirmation to know that her orders were received. She didn't reinforce the regular contingent of prison guards with her own bodyguards, who were ordered to keep still on the other side of that gateway and so were completely useless. There was no plan. Her orders to the Kin were to ignore the unusual activity, without being given reasons. Nobody besides Elayne knew what "the plan" was so how does it qualify as one?

Mat's plan on the other hand is a plan of low probability followed by even lower probability, yes he had extra guards but in reality they were practically useless. Have you ever thought what would have happened if the Gholam refused to enter that specific building, and inside that specific building the specific corridor with a gateway in it? Mat clearly hadn't - some great plan that.
The extra guards including Talmanes were decoys intended to draw the Gholam into that building. The Gholam kills, that was its weakness and it used those deaths to deliberately antagonize Mat, so the men were the lure. The building and hallway were chosen by Guybon who monitored the fight. The gateway came later and was detected by the Gholam (a near failure) but Mat kept it engaged. The gateway idea came from Elayne and Birgitte btw so who are you really criticizing? Elayne hopefully learned from the mistakes she made earlier.

It depends on how Elayne writes it. If she does it correctly, then her own children will inherit it as they will be born before Avi or Min's potential kids.

By correctly you mean, not according to the terms agreed to then? Do you think Perrin wouldn't see through that? Faile obviously would.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 02:24 PM
All I am saying is, Perrin and Faile came in wanting to settle things peacefully. They were negotiating. They suggested High Lord, Morgase suggested Steward - done! This could have been done without threats and rudeness( Where's Cadsuane when you need her to teach civility?).

Given that they were dealing with a whinny little princess with the intellectual capacity of a twelve year old valley girl, I tend to view Perrin and Faile as having come out of the whole thing ahead of what my expectations were.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 02:26 PM
They were dealing with Bela?

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2010, 04:30 AM
Mat's plan on the other hand is a plan of low probability followed by even lower probability, yes he had extra guards but in reality they were practically useless. Have you ever thought what would have happened if the Gholam refused to enter that specific building, and inside that specific building the specific corridor with a gateway in it? Mat clearly hadn't - some great plan that.Mat may have had a couple more such traps prepared in other buildings. That would have improved the odds considerably.

And, at the same time, Mat does know that his luck works best in low probability situations. So betting on precisely that is not a very unreasonable thing to do.

Charlz Guybon
11-16-2010, 04:51 AM
I am not sure I understand what you mean by "the mess he made". Surely you don't mean the defence of the Two Rivers against Trollocs and Whitecloaks?

Raising the banner of Manetheren was a mess? Maybe it made the Crown of Andor uncomfortable, but hey, why should the Two Rivers people care about the Crown which did not care about them either?

The real mess was, as Perrin mentioned, that the Crown did not help against the Trollocs AND that the Crown did not even know about the Trollocs.

Elayne's compromise may have been the best outcome, but the "tone" she achieved it could have been much better.

Its like what Stannis Baratheon said in "A Storm of Swords" - "I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne."

The Crown didn't have the capibility to know about the trollocs or help in a timely manner then, but it does now, which a difference.

Speaking of the Caemlyn situation, when was the last time we heard of the Legion of the Dragon? KoD? All the way back in TPoD? Are they still outside of Caemlyn? Because if they are then I assume that they are big factor in the coming battle. If they're not there, where did they go? Weren't there like 70,000 of them at last count?

thedragonreformed
11-16-2010, 08:45 AM
The Crown didn't have the capibility to know about the trollocs or help in a timely manner then

Yes - that is exactly the point Perrin made. Elayne was trying to justify the neglect of The Two Rivers before by saying it was not in rebellion.

Enheduanna
11-16-2010, 05:25 PM
The Crown didn't have the capibility to know about the trollocs or help in a timely manner then, but it does now, which a difference.

Speaking of the Caemlyn situation, when was the last time we heard of the Legion of the Dragon? KoD? All the way back in TPoD? Are they still outside of Caemlyn? Because if they are then I assume that they are big factor in the coming battle. If they're not there, where did they go? Weren't there like 70,000 of them at last count?

They were in Tear, I think Darlin was mustering Rand's various armies there.

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 05:31 PM
And we "think" the Aiel are there too. Because there's not a single sentence in the last book and a half that says anything definite either way, but it's reasonable to assume.

endymion
11-22-2010, 06:22 PM
Why bother with alliances when you can absorb or annex?

I'll agree with you on the fact that she is clearly Andor-centric. This gambit, and her rapprochement with Perrin's nascent Manetheren, is clearly designed with Andor's interests primarily at heart. If Aviendha's visions of the potential future carry any actuality this clearly reinforces this, as in her Oncala-vision she visits Queen Talana, who is called Queen of Andor, not of Andor-Cairhien, and Talana's court is at Caemlyn. Assuming that in that version of the future, that Andor still ruled over Cairhien, it would seem that they literally ruled over Cairhien, which seemingly was just a province of a greater Andor. Too bad if true. If Elayne really wanted to achieve a unified state that encompassed Andor, Cairhien, and Manetheren, it would seem more practical to choose a new imperial capital, like Aringill, and choose a new name (or an old name) to refer to her new empire.

This scenario is still plausible. According to Min's viewing, I don't think Elayne will rule for long. One of Min's viewing is that the final battle is over, Rand and three women (The Lion Sword, the Dedicated Spear, and She Who Sees Beyond) are on a boat. This is similar to Arthurian legend. It can also indicates that they are leaving Randland. But, Elayne will have two children though: a boy and a girl. The girl rules Andor and the boy rules Cairhien.

endymion
11-22-2010, 06:35 PM
Don't think it works that way. The dragon himself would have to return and make the claim on the Two Rivers, if you assume the legal terms they settled on with respect to tax exemption. He's a lone figurehead, a legend based in prophecy and rebirth, his heirs have no claim then.

You are sadly mistaken. First, it's extremely hard to fight against a legend. Second, the son or daughter of the Dragon Reborn will command a lot of support. Just think of how many people left their land and family in his name now. Think of all the allegiances that the heir will have. Third, think of how powerful this heir will be. One, the heir will be powerful in the one if the mother is Elayne or Aviendha. Or, the heir will be somewhat less powerful but with a chance of reading the pattern. Trust me, you don't want to mess with Rand's heirs.