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View Full Version : the Great Holding, Moridin's stash, and the red stone door


nameless
11-13-2010, 12:55 AM
Now that it's been revealed that Moridin has a huge stash of Power artifacts, I started to wonder how he got them. It's possible he's been building it up slowly over the last 3,000 years in his Ba'alzamon incarnation, but I think he had an opportunity to rifle through the Great Holding in Tear. Rand warded the only door that connects the Holding to the rest of the prime reality, but he didn't put any wards on the red stone doorway to Aelfinn and if Moridin is the one who went to retrieve Lanfear from the Eelfinn and collapse the doorway (which seems likely), he would have easily been able to cross into the Great Holding before destroying the door and Travel out without triggering any of the wards on the front door. After that, he'd know the area well enough to Travel in and out at will and disregard the front door entirely.

Terez
11-13-2010, 01:00 AM
I already mentioned in another thread that the timing suggests that Moridin went after Cyndane around the end of ACOS/beginning of TPOD - before Rand sent Narishma after Callandor. Would be interesting if Rand's weaves recognized Moridin as Rand, because of the merge, but I suspect now that Moridin had something to do with the wonky wards on Callandor, at least.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 02:22 AM
I really can't decide if he's just found them over the last couple thousand years or if he stole them from the great hold. While thinking about it I was wondering if Moridin perhaps has a Talent for finding stasis boxes or something like that.
I don't think it's very likely that he made any of the items in his posession but I find it curious that none of the FS have thus far shown any ability in making angreal or terangreal. I thought that type of thing was far more prevelant in the AoL and at least one of them would be capable of it.

Terez
11-13-2010, 02:31 AM
Elayne has tried teaching others to make ter'angreal, and as far as I know, none of them have been successful at it. Also, I gather that Elayne's lack of success in copying certain ter'angreal comes from the fact that it requires linking. The Forsaken don't like working together.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 02:38 AM
Yea I was thinking about how Elayne's copy of the foxhead medallion is imperfect. If the medallion blocks saidin and saidar I wonder if it requires men and women working together to create it properly.

dominominic
11-13-2010, 02:40 AM
I already mentioned in another thread that the timing suggests that Moridin went after Cyndane around the end of ACOS/beginning of TPOD - before Rand sent Narishma after Callandor. Would be interesting if Rand's weaves recognized Moridin as Rand, because of the merge, but I suspect now that Moridin had something to do with the wonky wards on Callandor, at least.

I'd expect more from Moridin than just messing with wards. What would be the point?

Terez
11-13-2010, 02:49 AM
I'd expect more from Moridin than just messing with wards. What would be the point?
Maybe he tried to get Callandor, didn't quite manage it, and messed up the wards in the process. Maybe he exchanged Callandor with a fake. 'Who draws it out shall follow after,' whatever that means. ;) And then didn't redo the wards exactly right. Or maybe he just did something to Callandor.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 04:49 AM
I'd expect more from Moridin than just messing with wards. What would be the point?

Depends on what the added/modified wards were supposed to do. If he knew Rand wouldn't be the one to pull Callandor out and that that person would have a role to play he might just want to screw with that.


I already mentioned in another thread that the timing suggests that Moridin went after Cyndane around the end of ACOS/beginning of TPOD - before Rand sent Narishma after Callandor. Would be interesting if Rand's weaves recognized Moridin as Rand, because of the merge, but I suspect now that Moridin had something to do with the wonky wards on Callandor, at least.


I like the idea, it's a good thought.

dominominic
11-13-2010, 05:29 AM
Depends on what the added/modified wards were supposed to do. If he knew Rand wouldn't be the one to pull Callandor out and that that person would have a role to play he might just want to screw with that.

Seems like a waste of time to make it a bit harder to take. Doesn't achieve anything.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 06:24 AM
Seems like a waste of time to make it a bit harder to take. Doesn't achieve anything.I think that instead of making it a bit harder, he had intended to make it a bit too hard. A small, subtle difference, I admit, but one that could be important, especially to the guy that ends up fried to a crisp because of it.

Terez
11-13-2010, 06:25 AM
Yes, Narishma made it clear that he almost got killed. Probably he made a small alteration to the wards that was unlikely to be noticed, but deadly.

dominominic
11-13-2010, 08:39 AM
Yes, Narishma made it clear that he almost got killed. Probably he made a small alteration to the wards that was unlikely to be noticed, but deadly.

Granted this is possible but I'd like to think if Moridin wanted a guarntred killing weave he'd make one. Although maybe there are no guaranteed ones!

Is it too much to ask for one of the massively experienced arch-villains to do something competent?

Terez
11-13-2010, 09:06 AM
Granted this is possible but I'd like to think if Moridin wanted a guarntred killing weave he'd make one.
He was probably trying to contribute to Rand's conviction that he was going crazy.

Is it too much to ask for one of the massively experienced arch-villains to do something competent?
Yes.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 09:20 AM
Bel'al did quite well, as did Sammael.

Belazamon
11-13-2010, 04:06 PM
Granted this is possible but I'd like to think if Moridin wanted a guarntred killing weave he'd make one. Although maybe there are no guaranteed ones!
Perhaps it would have killed Rand if he'd been the one to get it. After all, the original barrier to Callandor was somehow attuned to the Dragon Soul.

Jonai
11-13-2010, 06:33 PM
I think Ishadin is about the most competent bad guy you are going to find. This is tWoT after all. What Bela said, and maybe if we're lucky, the Dark One will unveil his surprises, that RJ promised, next book.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:38 PM
If Moridin did get all of them from the Great Hold then Rand is a fvcking idiot for not warding it better.


Not a shock if that is the case.

Jonai
11-13-2010, 06:43 PM
Wouldn't be surprising, I think at the time he warded everything Asmo has just barely pulled his head out of his ass, channeling wise. I think he did original wards when he left the Stone the first time, and then later came back and inverted them. Still, if Moggy is to be believed, all wards are susceptible.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:45 PM
Wouldn't be surprising, I think at the time he warded everything Asmo has just barely pulled his head out of his ass, channeling wise. I think he did original wards when he left the Stone the first time, and then later came back and inverted them. Still, if Moggy is to be believed, all wards are susceptible.


I would hope that he enhanced them off-screen at some point even after the inverting but who knows. Besides, as you say any ward is vulnerable. Ishy, as one of the most powerful talented channelers ever could probably break them or bypass them. I wonder if Rand thought to ward everything or if one could simply Travel past the Wards to avoid them altogether?

Jonai
11-13-2010, 06:48 PM
Might also be a way to bypass saidin wards with the True Power.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:50 PM
Might also be a way to bypass saidin wards with the True Power.

I was thinking that too. I would suspect that the TP could be used to mess them up or that even SH could merely get rid of them with no issues.

Weird Harold
12-08-2010, 08:07 PM
After that, he'd know the area well enough to Travel in and out at will and disregard the front door entirely.

A minor quibble: To Travel you need to know where you are, not where you're going.

Skimming is supposed to require you to know your destination as well as you need to know the origin for Traveling, but in practice, that requirement seems largely ignored.

The Stone of Tear isn't warded against Traveling, -- so far as we know the Black Tower is occupying the only remaining Dreamspike in the World. Moridin or any of the Forsaken should have been able to Travel into the Stone, nick whatever items of power they desired and Skim/Travel out.

IIRC, the reason they didn't is that the Great Hoard was mostly junk; finding anything useful would have been a lifetime's work.

Mat
12-09-2010, 04:20 AM
Ishamael was free for about 3000 years, so He probably just went to the known stashes from time to time and picked the good stuff...

We don't know how big a stasis box can be, maybe He just found the one where the scientists of the AoL put every advanced Ter'Angreal/Angreal in...
Like Noahs AoL Ark of awesome.
-----------

As the chosen came free and nobody knew about inverted weaves or mask of mists and gates and skimming and and and... why the hell didn't they just walk into the white tower, go to the stash there and take the good stuff?

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 10:14 AM
Hmmmmmm... well, a few things here. In a way it figures that Moridin would have at least some angreal, I mean, why should the good guys have all the toys? The baddies have to at least have something. And who's to say that Team Dark hasn't made any of their own trinkets over the years?

Moridin could have also acquired these from several stasis boxes. It is not a stretch to assume he has some knowledge of this. Or Moridin could have pinched these from various locations. Semi and Mesaana have already proved that they could get around various wards, Moridin should be going through the Tower stash like a champion by now. Egwene got her hands on that wand with little to no effort at all...

GonzoTheGreat
12-09-2010, 10:51 AM
Since there is also a compilation of Dark Prophecies there, which was apparently put together over a long time and with a lot of planning, I would say that it is not unlikely that Ishamael had spent 3,000 years adding to his stash. Dunno why he never used any of those things when confronting Rand, though.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 10:59 AM
Since there is also a compilation of Dark Prophecies there, which was apparently put together over a long time and with a lot of planning, I would say that it is not unlikely that Ishamael had spent 3,000 years adding to his stash. Dunno why he never used any of those things when confronting Rand, though.

Well there is something wonky with most of the Forsaken... I mean in tDR when Rand was facing Be'lal, didn't the guy openly coax Rand to take Callandor to fight him? From my perspective that was kinda dim witted, Rand is the Dragon, powerful enough, and we want to increase that power exponentially? Hmmm. Mind you, when Rand did have the sword, Ba'alzamon at least had the good sense to head for the hills. Go figure.:confused:

GonzoTheGreat
12-09-2010, 11:17 AM
Be'lal wanted Callandor, but he couldn't get it until Rand had touched it. So his plan was probably "have the DR touch the sword, whack him on the head, take the sword, Bingo!" Which, as Forsaken plans go, is rather ingeniuous.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 11:28 AM
Be'lal wanted Callandor, but he couldn't get it until Rand had touched it. So his plan was probably "have the DR touch the sword, whack him on the head, take the sword, Bingo!" Which, as Forsaken plans go, is rather ingeniuous.

LOL- "whack him on the head"... yeah- "hey LTT look- a Denny's"

"wha?"

::whack::

"The sword is mine! I have the Power (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yeA7a0uS3A)!!!"

Sorry, don't know what came over me there. I guess Be'lal subscribes to the Keep it Simple (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEkmO3gQQAs) philosophy of sword stealing;)