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Andrac
11-13-2010, 02:45 AM
After reading the latest book I was just thinking that I feel really bad for min. Mostly because she is normal and won't have an extended life from channeling. It seems during the current age that the lifespan is shorter then we have on earth as people in their 80s are considered really REALLY old. Maybe is she is really super lucky she will live to a 100.

Now provided elyane, aviendha, and rand all survive the last battle, all of them will live a MINIMUM of 300 years. And the stronger you are the longer you live. It seems like rand might have possibly absorbed the choden kal or something and its power as since his time on dragonmount he has at least doubled in power. Add that to him having already been the strongest channeler alive, it wouldn't suprise me if he lived close to a 1000, but I'm thinking at least 500-600.

Aviendha will live to at least 400 as well I would say from not being bound by the oath road, and elayne would be 300+ bound and close to aviendha if she becomes unbound. Sucks to be the andorian and carhienin nobles since she will be queen for a few hundred years.

So yeah, I feel bad for min as basically her great grandchildren's great grandchildren will be dead before the others are middle aged.

Terez
11-13-2010, 02:53 AM
Why would Aviendha not live as long as Rand? Max lifespan for Age of Legends channelers was around 800, but there's nothing to indicate that men lived longer than women. It is dependent on strength, but I imagine it is proportionally so. The oldest known member of the Kin is over 600.

But yeah, Min will not live that long. That's probably why she is the one always by Rand's side, in a plot device kind of way (she also has no important responsibilities tying her down elsewhere).

Oh, and Rand didn't absorb the Choedan Kal. That's silly. ;)

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 03:00 AM
What does account for Rand's dramatic increase in strength though? Or is it an increase in strength at all? Did reconciling himself with LTT and therefore gaining his memories just allow him to better utilize his abilities in the power? Maybe he somehow also gained LTT's strength in addition to his own.

Andrac
11-13-2010, 03:04 AM
I didn't say he did for sure, it just seems like he did. His power is much much stronger then before that event on dragonmount. I know he 'awoke' so to speak during those events and learned to feel again, and seems to have all the memories of his previous life as lews therwin, but that doesn't explain his major jump in power. He of course knows new weaves, or remembers maybe, but that it wouldn't make his power double or triple. I mean the guy stood for an hour straight just holding his hand up and let forth hundreds if not thousands of weaves at once. I really doubt lews therwin was even that powerful.

As for aviendha, of course she won't live as long as rand. She isn't anywhere near as powerful as him. Egwene, elyane, and aviendha are all similiar in levels of power. Egwene wouldn't be scared to take on a forsaken herself, she basically tells everyone only let nynaeve do that as she is more powerful then them. Rand is even more powerful then nynaeve. The others protect themselves from forsaken. Rand hunts them down to make sure they are dead.

Terez
11-13-2010, 03:18 AM
What does account for Rand's dramatic increase in strength though?
At the Tower, it was likely his ta'verenness. At Maradon, it may be that what he did wasn't all that different from what he did at Algarin's. And it exhausted him. He didn't seem to think his performance there comparable to what he could do with Callandor, since he still seems to think he needs it.

Did reconciling himself with LTT and therefore gaining his memories just allow him to better utilize his abilities in the power?
Most likely, that too. His suppressing of the memories definitely caused problems

Maybe he somehow also gained LTT's strength in addition to his own.
I find this unlikely. If he actually is that much stronger naturally, then it's probably a PLE sort of thing, as much as I find the idea to be disappointing.

He of course knows new weaves, or remembers maybe, but that it wouldn't make his power double or triple. I mean the guy stood for an hour straight just holding his hand up and let forth hundreds if not thousands of weaves at once. I really doubt lews therwin was even that powerful.
Are there any hard facts upon which you base this opinion?

As for aviendha, of course she won't live as long as rand. She isn't anywhere near as powerful as him.
As I said, it's probably proportional. In other words, the strongest female would probably live just as long as the strongest male.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 03:25 AM
And the stronger you are the longer you live.Where is this stated?
I mean the guy stood for an hour straight just holding his hand up and let forth hundreds if not thousands of weaves at once.That's certainly not stated. It seems simpler to ascribe any increased strength or skill with saidin either to his integration of his memories as Lews Therin or to his having fully become the Dragon, champion of the Light and all that, than to believe he received a power-up from destroying an angreal.

Terez
11-13-2010, 04:10 AM
Where is this stated?
RJ said that slowing is dependent on strength. It follows that lifespan is also.

BOHIKA 5
11-13-2010, 04:11 AM
I had thought that maybe the channelling display at Maradon might be an extension of the super shadowspawn killing weave Rand used in tSR to eradicate the trollocs at the Stone. IIRC no other channeller has performed a similar weave.

The increased power would be due to his recent reconciliation on Dragonmount and his integral role in the upcoming "confrontation" with the Dark One. He does state that what transpired at Maradon came too close to a confrontation. I think that his channelling effectiveness is only increased with regards to attacking shadowspawn and standing against the shadow.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 04:52 AM
RJ said that slowing is dependent on strength. It follows that lifespan is also.If you're referring to this quotation, he does say "up to a point", and I don't believe he's said elsewhere what that point might be. Daigian's strength? Verin's? Elaida's? In regards to this particular discussion, Elayne and Aviendha are quite strong, and there's no more reason to think they've not passed that threshold than otherwise.
Q: Does the rate of slowing depend on your strength in the Power?
RJ: Yes: Basically; you age at 1/X your normal rate, with X being dependent up to a point on Power strength. The Power acts as a natural rejuvenator on you; even at the point of death you won't look or feel worse than a normal 65-year-old.

So, basically, I'm in agreement with your first post in the thread. I think I may have misinterpreted what you meant by "proportionally".

etranger
11-13-2010, 05:36 AM
RJ said that slowing is dependent on strength. It follows that lifespan is also.

This doesn't explain Sorilea though. We are told that she is the oldest living Wise One although she is barely able to channel.

If strength truly determines lifespan then every single Wise One who should have lived longer than Sorilea -- at least hundreds, perhaps thousands -- must have died prematurely. While the Waste is a dangerous place, this stretches credulity.

Terez
11-13-2010, 05:41 AM
This doesn't explain Sorilea though.
Sure it does. She's an unbound channeler, and she's lived probably something close to the maximum for channelers of her strength - about 300 years. Nothing close to the near 800 of stronger channelers.

If strength truly determines lifespan then every single Wise One who should have lived longer than Sorilea
There are stories of some who lived longer.

While the Waste is a dangerous place, this stretches credulity.
*shrug* I don't have a problem with it. It's the explanation that has been given for why they don't generally live as long as the Kin.

Landro
11-13-2010, 05:47 AM
I feel really bad for min. Mostly because she is normal and won't have an extended life from channeling.

Min is getting A LOT more "quality time" with Rand than Avienda or Elayne. So it's a good thing Avienda and Elayne have such longer life expectancy otherwise they'd never be able to catch up :D

Andrac
11-13-2010, 06:00 AM
Min is getting A LOT more "quality time" with Rand than Avienda or Elayne. So it's a good thing Avienda and Elayne have such longer life expectancy otherwise they'd never be able to catch up :D

They just better hope that rand's Sword That Is Not A Sword survives the last battle.

etranger
11-13-2010, 06:05 AM
Sure it does. She's an unbound channeler, and she's lived probably something close to the maximum for channelers of her strength - about 300 years. Nothing close to the near 800 of stronger channelers.

I didn't wonder about Sorilea's absolute age but her relative age compared to other Wise Ones.

*shrug* I don't have a problem with it. It's the explanation that has been given for why they don't generally live as long as the Kin.

It's a possible explanation, just not a very convincing one from my point of view that while there probably should be thousands of older Wise Ones every single one of them died prematurely and not even in war. YMMV.

BOHIKA 5
11-13-2010, 06:08 AM
They just better hope that rand's Sword That Is Not A Sword survives the last battle.

This.

Jonai
11-13-2010, 08:51 AM
Mesaaana was considered just into her middle years at 300+, Moggy was considered "young" at 200+, and Lews Therin was considered just into his middle years at 400. Terez's 800 sounds about right. It looks to be like slowing is determined by your absolute strength in the power, and men are usually stronger, however there is a caveat. Women always slow much younger than men. So, I'd tend to agree with Terez on the equal life span thing.

Oh Lews Therin sounds like he was pretty strong to me. He was considered the strongest man of his time, that no other Aes Sedai matched him. You've got to understand, back then 3% of the population could channel and there were hundreds of thousands of Aes Sedai living. In addition, he was said to have "soundly defeated" Elan Morin Tedronai at the gates of Paaren Disen. Lanfear commented in tFoH that no Forsaken had ever defeated him in the War of Power, and since they didn't disagree, I think she might have been telling the truth.

:re Maradon: Honestly, what Rand did here seems well within the bounds of realistic results. An hour of straight channeling for him is nothing. He was channeling for hours at the Battle of Cairhien, and the cleansing took an very long time as well. His death gates, blossoms of fire, and arrows of fire at the manor seemed on a similar scale. So, no, I don't find it unbelievable.

A Wise One is mentioned who lived to be over 300 and died from a snake bite. Min might live longer than you think. Non-channelers lived longer in the AoL than modern people do. In chapter 26, "The Dedicated" of tSR, Jonai thinks "He was sixty-three, in the prime of life, not yet old enough for gray hairs." Also Charn was a young man, when the Bore was drilled and still alive at the end of the WoP. Now granted, the standard of living now is much lower, but Min has an AoL restorer in Nynaeve. :)

Edynol
11-13-2010, 09:48 AM
Well min is bonded to Rand and the rest. Does the warder bond give the slowing benefit to the warders as well? I know Lan is probably around 80 or something yet from his description, aside from the bit of grey in his hair, he still looks in his 30's or early 40's. So is it safe to assume that while Min won't live as long as a channeler, she will still live a pretty long time? I'm thinking she might make it to at least 200 give or take.

Jokeslayer
11-13-2010, 10:05 AM
Well min is bonded to Rand and the rest. Does the warder bond give the slowing benefit to the warders as well? I know Lan is probably around 80 or something yet from his description, aside from the bit of grey in his hair, he still looks in his 30's or early 40's. So is it safe to assume that while Min won't live as long as a channeler, she will still live a pretty long time? I'm thinking she might make it to at least 200 give or take.

Warders don't get extended lifespans but they do retain their vitality longer. And Lan is not in his eighties -he's mid-to-late forties.

TankSpill
11-13-2010, 11:09 AM
As I said, it's probably proportional. In other words, the strongest female would probably live just as long as the strongest male.

But Aviendha, Elayne, and Egwene aren't the strongest females - Nynaeve is considerably stronger than they, and Alivia even stronger. Rand is the strongest of the males - at least, according to Lanfear:

"He is Lews Therin reborn, and Lews Therin was as strong as any."

I doubt Aviendha would live as long as Rand. If they survive.

GonzoTheGreat
11-13-2010, 11:11 AM
Considering the amount of politics they're mixed up in, I do not think either of them has to worry greatly about living out their entire natural lifespan.

Terez
11-13-2010, 11:24 AM
But Aviendha, Elayne, and Egwene aren't the strongest females - Nynaeve is considerably stronger than they, and Alivia even stronger.
And Sharina even stronger, probably on a level with Lanfear. I doubt it's enough to make much difference.

Neilbert
11-13-2010, 11:31 AM
Lanfear commented in tFoH that no Forsaken had ever defeated him in the War of Power, and since they didn't disagree, I think she might have been telling the truth.

I don't recall this, but I do recall Aginor claiming to have bested LTT in the Hall of Servants way back in tEoTW.

Unless she meant they never killed him, in which case... yeah.

finn
11-13-2010, 01:06 PM
I had thought that maybe the channelling display at Maradon might be an extension of the super shadowspawn killing weave Rand used in tSR to eradicate the trollocs at the Stone. IIRC no other channeller has performed a similar weave.

The increased power would be due to his recent reconciliation on Dragonmount and his integral role in the upcoming "confrontation" with the Dark One. He does state that what transpired at Maradon came too close to a confrontation. I think that his channelling effectiveness is only increased with regards to attacking shadowspawn and standing against the shadow.
Male channelers are said to gain their strength by fits and starts. What happened on Dragonmount is significant because that was the most power Rand had ever held, more than at the Cleansing of Saidin apparently. Stretching his capacity to hold the power must have increased his ability to channel it as well.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 07:02 PM
Rand could also be essentially the Creator's Avatar (see faction) at this point...that would explain the "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees on her delving. Its clear that he's far far stronger than he naturally would be if you simply look at the Ashaman's reaction at Maradon. They were shocked that he was channeling that much and completely unaided. Its not just him being at peak strength, its something more (Annoying maybe but the most likely explanation.)

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 07:06 PM
I've always wondered that since there is true power which is a special power for adherents of the dark one why there was no special power for champions of the light. Since the TP destroys the pattern I think there should be some kind light power that repairs it. I know the creator made the world and left it alone, but its not like its demise will be due soley to humans, the DO's power is being wielded and its not fair to expect humans to combat it alone.

Caveatar
11-13-2010, 08:12 PM
Rand could also be essentially the Creator's Avatar (see faction) at this point...that would explain the "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees on her delving. Its clear that he's far far stronger than he naturally would be if you simply look at the Ashaman's reaction at Maradon. They were shocked that he was channeling that much and completely unaided. Its not just him being at peak strength, its something more (Annoying maybe but the most likely explanation.)

the "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees on her delving.

Would that make Rand's brain another Eye of the World 'well'? I thought that when I read about her delving to heal his insanity after Naeff. But then thought...NAH. He is awfully strong though.

Matoyak
11-13-2010, 08:34 PM
the "liquid power" that Nynaeve sees on her delving.

Would that make Rand's brain another Eye of the World 'well'? I thought that when I read about her delving to heal his insanity after Naeff. But then thought...NAH. He is awfully strong though.No, the Eye was purified Saidin, iirc, not some other power source, it was simply the only non-tainted Saidin on the planet at the time.

Andrac
11-13-2010, 09:58 PM
Male channelers are said to gain their strength by fits and starts. What happened on Dragonmount is significant because that was the most power Rand had ever held, more than at the Cleansing of Saidin apparently. Stretching his capacity to hold the power must have increased his ability to channel it as well.

This gives even more evidence to rand having possibly somehow absorbed the choden kal. Don't ask me how he could have done it, but it has been repeatedly said the thing was the strongest sa'angrael to have ever been created. And multiple times it was said using it one would have the power to destroy the entire world. If rand is now somehow stronger then he was at the cleansing when he was using his max power, nynaeve's max power, and BOTH the male and female chodan kals, then I can't think of another explanation unless the creator came in and pulled a ninja move embueing him with the power to actually kill the dark one forever and end the cycle of death.

Anyway, after starting to read the great hunt again there is even more evidence that aviendha won't live anywhere near as long as rand. Its page 56 or 57 in the paperback where moraine is telling suine about egwene and nynaeve. When elayne's potential was described it was said she would be the most powerful aes sedai in a 1000 years. But nynaeve when trained would be considered to be a "bonfire next to the candles of elayne and egwene". Aviendha has roughly the same power as elayne and egwene, yet the three of them are mere candles compared to the bonfire of nynaeve. The thing with this though is, rand is far far stronger then nynaeve. After Towers it seems like he is much stronger then LTT ever was. And Therwin was the strongest of his time. So even with the slowing effecting woman more, rand will live longer just from sheer strength in the power alone.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 10:10 PM
If rand is now somehow stronger then he was at the cleansing when he was using his max power, nynaeve's max power, and BOTH the male and female chodan kals, then I can't think of another explanation unless the creator came in and pulled a ninja move embueing him with the power to actually kill the dark one forever and end the cycle of death.Well, he isn't. There's nothing to explicitly rule it out, I suppose, but why would you think this?
When elayne's potential was described it was said she would be the most powerful aes sedai in a 1000 years. But nynaeve when trained would be considered to be a "bonfire next to the candles of elayne and egwene".I think the general interpretation of that is that Moiraine took poetic license. Linda's saidar strength chart (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart), which is probably fairly close to accurate, shows that this is not the case unless the scale is somehow exponential.
So even with the slowing effecting woman more, rand will live longer just from sheer strength in the power alone.Again, Jordan said that strength in the Power only affected slowing (and presumably age) to a point, and we don't have any reason to believe that that point is higher than the 60th percentile or so of overall channeling strength (i.e., about 80% of all channelers assuming a normal distribution (yes, I know it's bimodal, but you get the point)) where Elayne and Aviendha fall.

SixPips
11-14-2010, 11:04 AM
Everyone is so concerned about the maximum lifespans of the ladies but consider this: During Aviendha's visions of the future, none of Rand's ladyfriends nor Rand himself were ever referred to as if they were still alive. Elayne's daughter was already queen of Andor, Aviendha's Grandaughter remembered her face from her childhood only, and nobody even mention's Min, or any child she may have had by Rand.

I don't mean to call the length issue of their lifespans irrelevant, I'm just saying that it looks like either they went all into seclusion with Rand, leaving their kids behind (unlikely) or there may be a few more deaths at TG than we expected, with Aviendha making it a little while past before dying in some way trying to save her people from the Seanchan.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 11:30 AM
I didn't see Maradon as an increase of strength in the Power. Simply that his integration with Lews Therin allowed him to fully access his true ability with the Power. Lews Therin was the perfect male channeller.. not just in raw power but also in perfect dexterity.

I don't recall this, but I do recall Aginor claiming to have bested LTT in the Hall of Servants way back in tEoTW.

Aginor gloated over the raising of the Hall of the Servants. He never defeated Lews Therin. Ishamael, who next to Lanfear, is just shy of Lews Therin's strength, couldn't defeat him at the Gates of Paarn Disen. It's likely that when they battled there, Aginor and the others were about destroying the Hall.

So basically, Aginor didn't have the balls to do anything until Lews Therin was miles away (Paarn Disen must have been huge).

Unless she meant they never killed him, in which case... yeah.

The only recorded defeat of Lews Therin by one of the Forsaken was when Be'lal defeated him at a game of Stones (I think it's Be'lal).

Terez
11-14-2010, 11:36 AM
Everyone is so concerned about the maximum lifespans of the ladies but consider this: During Aviendha's visions of the future, none of Rand's ladyfriends nor Rand himself were ever referred to as if they were still alive. Elayne's daughter was already queen of Andor, Aviendha's Grandaughter remembered her face from her childhood only, and nobody even mention's Min, or any child she may have had by Rand.

I don't mean to call the length issue of their lifespans irrelevant, I'm just saying that it looks like either they went all into seclusion with Rand, leaving their kids behind (unlikely) or there may be a few more deaths at TG than we expected, with Aviendha making it a little while past before dying in some way trying to save her people from the Seanchan.
Yes but we are assuming that this future is likely to be prevented. It may be that the seclusion thing still happens, but maybe not.

Edynol
11-14-2010, 12:22 PM
I don't recall this, but I do recall Aginor claiming to have bested LTT in the Hall of Servants way back in tEoTW.

Unless she meant they never killed him, in which case... yeah.

He bested LTT in a game of swords. Wasn't an actual fight and they were friends back then.

On another note, I'd add to that list that Moirain defeated or killed Lanfear with 'Finns assist. Technically. lol.

CJB
11-14-2010, 01:28 PM
He bested LTT in a game of swords. Wasn't an actual fight and they were friends back then.

I think it was Be'lal who liked to boast of once beating Lews Therin in a game of stones. Aginor did have a POV (as Osan'gar) where he thought of matching Lews Therin blow for blow in the Hall of Servants, though I can't remember where (most likely Winter's Heart).

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 02:18 PM
I'm sure Aginor probably forgot to mention all of the others on his side. Aginor was a prowerful channeller, but he doesn't match up with Lews Therin. He was probably on the back-foot the whole time.

He bested LTT in a game of swords. Wasn't an actual fight and they were friends back then.

Aginor didn't know one end of a sword from the other. He wasn't the type. He liked books, he was a scientist. It was men like Be'lal, Sammael, Demandred and Lews Therin who took to the sword.

Neilbert
11-14-2010, 02:29 PM
"Ba'alzamon will give rewards beyond mortal dreaming for the one who brings you to Shayol Ghul. Yet my dreams have always been beyond those of other men, and I left mortality behind millennia ago. What difference if you serve the Great Lord of the Dark alive or dead? None, to the spread of the Shadow. Why should I share power with you? Why should I bend knee to you? I, who faced Lews Therin Telamon in the Hall of the Servants itself. I, who threw my might against the Lord of the Morning and met him stroke for stroke. I think not."

So I was a little off, but still to hear him tell it he fought LTT to a standstill. Whether a more impartial viewer would call it that way is unknown. I really don't think there is a lot we can really glean from this quote beyond that they fought directly at one point.

I think it was Be'lal who liked to boast of once beating Lews Therin in a game of stones. Aginor did have a POV (as Osan'gar) where he thought of matching Lews Therin blow for blow in the Hall of Servants, though I can't remember where (most likely Winter's Heart).

You might be right, I don't recall, but I found the quote at the end of The Eye of the World.

CJB
11-14-2010, 02:44 PM
So I was a little off, but still to hear him tell it he fought LTT to a standstill. Whether a more impartial viewer would call it that way is unknown. I really don't think there is a lot we can really glean from this quote beyond that they fought directly at one point.



You might be right, I don't recall, but I found the quote at the end of The Eye of the World.

Yours is definitely the one I was thinking of. I really need to pay more attention to TEOTW when doing rereads.

Davian93
11-14-2010, 06:53 PM
I've always had the impression that LTT and Elan Morin Tedronai were nearly equal in every way when it came to channeling. Considering the basis of the story and universe is all about balance, its makes sense that the Champion of the Light and the Champion of the Shadow are equals in that regard.

Of course, it does seem that LTT has never lost a battle to Elan Morin considering he "soundly defeated" him at the gates of Paaran Disen, beat him again at Falme and then a 3rd time in Tear. So who knows. LTT was clearly a better fighter even if they were equal.


TITLE: The World of Robert Jordan's the Wheel of Time
CHAPTER: Aginor
The second most powerful man, known by the Forsaken name Aginor , came close to rivaling Lews Therin and Ishamael in strength.

Tends to imply that LTT & Elan Morin were equals.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 06:57 PM
I think there were other instances where the text implied that people at least believed LTT and Elan to be of comparable power/skill. Wouldn't have any idea where to look though.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 09:12 PM
I've always had the impression that LTT and Elan Morin Tedronai were nearly equal in every way when it came to channeling. Considering the basis of the story and universe is all about balance, its makes sense that the Champion of the Light and the Champion of the Shadow are equals in that regard.

I believe that the balance exists, but not between the Light and the Shadow but between men and women. I believe Lanfear to be Lews Therin's balance in the Pattern, in the One Power at least.

Andrac
11-14-2010, 11:18 PM
I think the general interpretation of that is that Moiraine took poetic license. Linda's saidar strength chart (http://13depository.blogspot.com/2009/02/saidar-strength-ranking.html#chart), which is probably fairly close to accurate, shows that this is not the case unless the scale is somehow exponential.

See I don't believe she took poetic license. Theres a few reasons against this. The biggest being that its always been said you can tell a women's full potential right off the bat. Men gain strength in fits and bursts so you will never know how strong they will end up, but a women you can tell right away how strong she will be at her maximum. Theres also that moraine and suine are friends, so aside from the three oaths thing, why would she lie to her friend? And the amyrlin at that? I mean suine could just go near nynaeve and see that moraine was making it up. I seem to have missed the part where suine goes "She lied! That bitch!"

Plus we just read two books with all the characters fondly remembering moraine and how she was the one aes sedai who was actually honest with people. Yeah she had her secrets of course, but she didn't bs people like many others do.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 11:20 PM
Taking poetic license is not the same as lying. She wasn't trying to deceive Siuan with the statement, it was just a novel way to express that Nyn is much strong than Eg and El.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 11:35 PM
As HunterOTS says, taking poetic license is not a lie.

And the brightness of a bonfire is at least two orders of magnitude greater than that of a candle. Taking that metaphor literally is absurd.

Andrac
11-14-2010, 11:37 PM
Taking poetic license is not the same as lying. She wasn't trying to deceive Siuan with the statement, it was just a novel way to express that Nyn is much strong than Eg and El.

Yes but thats my point, at what point in the series is moraine known for her wild exaggerations? She isn't. She is more straight and to the point, and honest. She has scared the hell out of rand, mat, perrin, and egwene when talking about the outside world and the shadow in Eye. So I just don't see her using that much of a difference for description. I mean why bonfire as oppossed to a camp fire? A bonfire is freaking huge and would be a REALLY bad way of describing their power if it wasn't anywhere near true.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 11:43 PM
Maybe her manners aren't quite so ridgid when speaking to someone she has been friends with for decades.