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Servus Christi
11-13-2010, 03:05 PM
I would just wondering if someone could help me with this. What is the current strength of Rand's Asha'man? I assume most are loyal to Taim, so is it like 1/3 are loyal and with Rand and 2/3 are with Taim?

How many Asha'man are currently taking orders from the Lord Dragon? As in those out in the field with Ituralde defending Maradon etcetera.

alleluia_cone
11-13-2010, 04:45 PM
I would just wondering if someone could help me with this. What is the current strength of Rand's Asha'man? I assume most are loyal to Taim, so is it like 1/3 are loyal and with Rand and 2/3 are with Taim?

How many Asha'man are currently taking orders from the Lord Dragon? As in those out in the field with Ituralde defending Maradon etcetera.

I'm confused about this issue as well. As I understood matters, Logain had pulled more than half of the Black Tower away from Taim. Did those Asha'man ever come back? In regard to the Asha'man who are in the Black Tower, it seems like 3/4 to 1/4 favoring Taim or something like that.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 04:58 PM
In TGS Rand told Ituralde that he would give him 100 Ashaman for Maradon. That would seem to imply that many of the loyal (Logain's) faction are in the field. Perhaps only the weakest or those who still need to learn the most are at the BT.

etranger
11-13-2010, 06:21 PM
In TGS Rand told Ituralde that he would give him 100 Ashaman for Maradon. That would seem to imply that many of the loyal (Logain's) faction are in the field. Perhaps only the weakest or those who still need to learn the most are at the BT.

There were only three full Asha'men with Ituralde. The rest must have been Dedicated and/or Soldiers.

Also, the fact that a great captain like Ituralde with his own ca. 50.000 soldiers, the Saldaeans in Maradon and supposedly 100 Asha'men couldn't stop the Trollocs -- whereas Rand alone could -- lends itself to the view that most of these Asha'men were weak and/or unskilled.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 06:31 PM
There were only three full Asha'men with Ituralde. The rest must have been Dedicated and/or Soldiers.

Also, the fact that a great captain like Ituralde with his own ca. 50.000 soldiers, the Saldaeans in Maradon and supposedly 100 Asha'men couldn't stop the Trollocs -- whereas Rand alone could -- lends itself to the view that most of these Asha'men were weak and/or unskilled.


Dude, there were something like 2 million Trollocs attacking Saldaea alone...not to mention the Fades & Draghkars associated with it. They were strong enough to make fairly large gateways so they weren't weak by any means.

HunterOTS
11-13-2010, 06:35 PM
There were only three full Asha'men with Ituralde. The rest must have been Dedicated and/or Soldiers.


Yea I said Ashaman but when I look at it he actually said "100 male channelers."

Jonai
11-13-2010, 07:15 PM
In "Message from the M'hael" in tPoD, on day 669, Taim reports 448 men total enrolled at the Black Tower. Recruiting gains are 3-4 men per day. On day 745 in KoD, Logain reports that OVER half the BT is in Illian and Arad Doman. That would be between 330-360 men minus loses. That's not counting the men Logain had with him of course.

I don't think he ever recalled those Asha'man, but tGS is a little foggy in my mind right now. If Taim's recruiting has been unchanged up until the end of ToM, there would be well over 1000 Asha'man (minus deaths). I think conservatively there are over 900.
The "good" Asha'man are almost all Soldiers and Dedicated. The exceptions being the ones Rand raised himself. There's over 130 Asha'man in Taim's camp. It's hard to say how many soldiers and dedicated are on Logain's side at the BT. At least half of BT is probably loyal to Rand/Logain, but most of those aren't at the BT. There were a lot of assumptions in that paragraph. About the only thing we know for sure is Taim has all the full Asha'man at the BT, and there are between 100-200 of those.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 07:19 PM
However, it should be noted that just because they are merely Soldiers/Dedicated in Rand's camp doesnt really mean all that much as Taim simply wont raise deserving men if they aren't Dreadlords.

I'd guess that its more 3/4 Rand 1/4 Taim's men at this point. I cant believe that 50% of them are Dreadlords unless they're forcibly turning them at a very high pace.

I'd bet that the 1,000 total is low too at this point.

etranger
11-13-2010, 07:28 PM
Dude, there were something like 2 million Trollocs attacking Saldaea alone...not to mention the Fades & Draghkars associated with it.

Let's say -- for the sake of argument -- that the 2 million figure were correct. Then it would seem that Ituralde never even fought most of these and still lost. Whereas we're told Rand, on his own, destroyed a force "many times the number that had assaulted Maradon".

In other words, Rand defeated a force many times larger than the one Ituralde lost against with his own ca. 50.000 soldiers (probably mostly veterans at this point) + the Saldaeans in Maradon + supposedly 100 Asha'men and although Ituralde had even the advantage of a superior position.

Moreover, almost all the Asha'men were not even full Asha'men. They were Dedicated and Soldiers.

These points surely lend themselves to the conclusion that most of the Asha'men were weak and/or unskilled. If most would have been strong and skilled, then Ituralde should have had much more success relative to what Rand was able to achieve on his own.

They were strong enough to make fairly large gateways so they weren't weak by any means.

Where does it say that all or even most of these Asha'men could make fairly large gateways? The gateway the Asha'men fled through was very small for example. And while some may have been able to create relatively large gateways, it would hardly have been absolutely necessary for most to be chosen for this assignment with Ituralde.

Davian93
11-13-2010, 08:06 PM
Let's say -- for the sake of argument -- that the 2 million figure were correct. Then it would seem that Ituralde never even fought most of these and still lost. Whereas we're told Rand, on his own, destroyed a force "many times the number that had assaulted Maradon".

In other words, Rand defeated a force many times larger than the one Ituralde lost against with his own ca. 50.000 soldiers (probably mostly veterans at this point) + the Saldaeans in Maradon + supposedly 100 Asha'men and although Ituralde had even the advantage of a superior position.



Well, the number is an educated guess based on the descriptions of numbers given by Ituralde both during the battle and when Rand appears. I believe the quote is something like "wow that's 10 times more than we faced the entire time' (heavily paraphrased of course) Sounds about like 2 million total. Rand is super Rand at this point and he broke them, he didnt kill them all. All he did was make life miserable for hte first 25-50 thousand and the rest found better things to do with their time than die.


Moreover, almost all the Asha'men were not even full Asha'men. They were Dedicated and Soldiers.



Taim is only raising those loyal to him so those titles arent the best for judging strength at this point unfortunately. Many dedicated that are deserving of being raised have been passed over.



These points surely lend themselves to the conclusion that most of the Asha'men were weak and/or unskilled. If most would have been strong and skilled, then Ituralde should have had much more success relative to what Rand was able to achieve on his own.



Perhaps...however, Ituralde was charged with defending the entire border, not just Maradon so he might have spread those Ashaman out significantly to hold the other portions of the country.



Where does it say that all or even most of these Asha'men could make fairly large gateways? The gateway the Asha'men fled through was very small for example. And while some may have been able to create relatively large gateways, it would hardly have been absolutely necessary for most to be chosen for this assignment with Ituralde.

It doesnt specify but Ituralde is using them to move his forces and plans for them to be used for retreating through gateways. It takes time to move men through a gateway, particularly cavalry which require bigger gates than men on foot so a good number of them must be able to make decent size gates. The gate they used to escape in Maradon was tiny because the Soldier making it was weaker than many of them. The other ashaman there could make good sized gates just based on Ituralde's plans to move troops to secondary positions quickly.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 08:35 PM
Ituralde was charged with defending the entire border, not just Maradon so he might have spread those Ashaman out significantly to hold the other portions of the country.I figure this has to be what happened. A similarly sized group of Asha'man killed about 10,000 Shaido in ten or twenty seconds at Dumai's Wells. I cannot believe Ituralde couldn't have held off a million Trollocs if he had his Asha'man concentrated. At any rate, he could have held them back at a couple of places instead of spreading them so thin they evidently were overrun at every place.

If he'd come to some sort of arrangement with the border towers to open gateways for rapid response the entire border might have held.

etranger
11-13-2010, 09:01 PM
Well, the number is an educated guess based on the descriptions of numbers given by Ituralde both during the battle and when Rand appears. I believe the quote is something like "wow that's 10 times more than we faced the entire time' (heavily paraphrased of course) Sounds about like 2 million total.

I didn't object to the 2 million figure. When Ituralde faced "several hundred thousand" Trollocs at Maradon then "many times" that could've been 2 million, yes.

Rand is super Rand at this point and he broke them, he didnt kill them all.

Yes, Rand killed tens of thousands and broke them. So the crucial question is why couldn't 100 Asha'men break cowardly Trollocs if they were not mostly weak but fairly strong channelers? The Shaido -- who are no cowards in contrast to Trollocs -- broke in minutes when faced with about ca. 200 Asha'men at Dumai's Wells.

Taim is only raising those loyal to him so those titles arent the best for judging strength at this point unfortunately. Many dedicated that are deserving of being raised have been passed over.

That's true to a point. There are doubtlessly some who deserve promotion. On the other hand, Taim also has an interest in keeping Rand's and Logain's loyalists weak and ignorant. This is probably reflected in his teachings. So if you're not one of Taim's loyalists you're probably kept weaker and/or less knowledgeable. Just look at Androl and his friends compared to Taim's allies at the Black Tower.

Perhaps...however, Ituralde was charged with defending the entire border, not just Maradon so he might have spread those Ashaman out significantly to hold the other portions of the country.

There is no evidence I recall that the Trollocs were attacking at multiple fronts in Saldaea. So Ituralde would surely have recalled any and all Asha'men to help against the attack on Maradon. There is also no evidence that many of Ituralde's Asha'men were elsewhere than at Maradon.

It doesnt specify but Ituralde is using them to move his forces and plans for them to be used for retreating through gateways. It takes time to move men through a gateway, particularly cavalry which require bigger gates than men on foot so a good number of them must be able to make decent size gates. The gate they used to escape in Maradon was tiny because the Soldier making it was weaker than many of them. The other ashaman there could make good sized gates just based on Ituralde's plans to move troops to secondary positions quickly.

Antail -- the guy who made the escape gateway -- seemed to have been the principal healer of the Asha'men. So one may doubt that he was among the weaker ones. Ituralde planning to retreat through gateways does in no way mean that most Asha'men would have had to be strong channelers. He didn't need scores of large gateways to do this. They would have helped, yes, but he would have had the same idea when most of his Asha'men couldn't make large gateways.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 09:14 PM
There is also no evidence that many of Ituralde's Asha'men were elsewhere than at Maradon.There's some.
“I have patrols running the length of it already,” Ituralde said. He stared out at the sickly landscape. “All the reports are the same. It’s quiet out there.”
On the other hand
“Nothing good, I’m afraid,” Bashere said grimly. “He’s had skirmishes with Trollocs, but you knew that already. The Shadowspawn always withdraw quickly, but he warns that something is gathering. His scouts catch glimpses of forces large enough to overrun him. If the Trollocs are gathering there, then they’re likely gathering elsewhere as well. Particularly the Gap.”
It's hard to tell, but the logic doesn't suggest they were all with Ituralde, given what happened at Dumai's Wells and that you'd think some of them would have picked up Deathgates and so forth from Logain's men. At the end it seemed Ituralde had only a handful of Asha'man with him... if he had a hundred, you'd think he could turn enough Trollocs into chunky goo they'd have enough time to recuperate before the next wave dared attack.

etranger
11-13-2010, 09:16 PM
At any rate, he could have held them back at a couple of places instead of spreading them so thin they evidently were overrun at every place.

Is it really more credible to think Ituralde was stupid enough to misuse and spread his Asha'men very thin than that most of them were weak and/or unskilled?

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 09:37 PM
Based on the way he was characterized, it is not credible. Based on the way the Asha'man have been portrayed, neither is it credible a hundred of them would have been overrun so easily.

I suppose this is a question that will have to be put to Sanderson or Maria, and we'll have to take their word for it.

etranger
11-13-2010, 09:41 PM
There's some.

AFAICT that isn't evidence that any significant force of Asha'men was elsewhere than at Maradon when Ituralde was attacked there. That a few Asha'men may have been with patrols to find Trollocs before the great attack -- which lasted more than a week -- is beside the point.

It's hard to tell, but the logic doesn't suggest they were all with Ituralde, given what happened at Dumai's Wells and that you'd think some of them would have picked up Deathgates and so forth from Logain's men.

There is simply no mention at all of any Asha'men deployed elsewhere by Ituralde. Note that all his known officers were with him too. Moreover, if there were any Asha'men stationed elsewhere it would have been easy to fetch them back to defend Maradon.

The Asha'men at Dumai's Wells were more and may well have been the most powerful Taim had at the time, and not possibly many of the weakest and very few of the strongest.

At the end it seemed Ituralde had only a handful of Asha'man with him... if he had a hundred, you'd think he could turn enough Trollocs into chunky goo they'd have enough time to recuperate before the next wave dared attack.

Actually, while reading I never got the feeling that Ituralde had truly 100 Asha'men. But we know he was promised 100 Asha'men and there was no mention at all of significant Asha'men forces elsewhere or of recalling those to defend Maradon and there should have been in such a case.

So if he truly had 100 Asha'men and is actually a Great Captain and not a stupid one then the only halfway reasonable explanation I can see at the moment for what happened at Maradon is that most of the Asha'men with him were weak/unskilled. That, or Sanderson has underestimated what 100 Asha'men should've been able to accomplish if they are not weak for the most part and don't face enemy channelers.

Andrac
11-13-2010, 10:13 PM
I think rand killed way more then 50,000 or so. I mean if you were in a force of 2 MILLION and someone took nearly an hour to kill only 50,000 of your army, would you run away in fear? With the amount of weaves he was making based on the shock of the other asha'men there I would say he killed a couple hundred thousand of them. Maybe as many as a million. Otherwise it makes the whole event fairly pathetic. Rand says he almost had a confrontation with the dark one. I mean really? Killing 50,000 trollocs out of an army of 2 million almost starts a final showdown confrontation?

Besides we pretty much know it was way more then 50k as Ituralde's defense of the city killed far more then 50,000 based on the way things were described. He had 10 of thousands of soldiers. Each soldier killed dozens of trollocs.

morat'corlm
11-13-2010, 10:24 PM
I think rand killed way more then 50,000 or so.Killing 50,000 trollocs out of an army of 2 million almost starts a final showdown confrontation?I think it was clear that it wasn't the number of Shadowspawn dead but the way in which it was accomplished (the Storm of Light and physically glowing) that almost triggered the confrontation. As for the number, Ituralde says "Tens of thousands of dead Trollocs smoldering." That seems fairly unambiguous.

natiels
11-14-2010, 12:03 AM
I guess I never got the impression that he had 100 Ashaman with him either, but I did get the distinct impression that they had been worn down by the constant defending so that is a partial explanation, some had to have been killed too.

As for Rand being able to do more than 100 tired Asha'man.


He is the most powerful channeler alive
He is the most gifted as far as ability to weave
He has over 400 years of AoL + War of Power experience.

Now compare to the Asha'man.

Average to above average strength levels
Only months of training
Their teacher has limited experience (unless you think he is forsaken)
Their teacher is purposely holding them back
The weaves they are using are probably not nearly as efficient (goes without saying at this point, but whatever)

skaywalker
11-14-2010, 01:33 AM
Actually while reading these parts of the book, I didn't get the impression that Iturald had 100 Asha'men with him. I think there were 10-15 of them at the most. And I think that's all he got from Rand. Now I don't know why Rand first promised 100 and then delivered only 15 but that's another question.

smileyman
11-14-2010, 01:57 AM
Actually while reading these parts of the book, I didn't get the impression that Iturald had 100 Asha'men with him. I think there were 10-15 of them at the most. And I think that's all he got from Rand. Now I don't know why Rand first promised 100 and then delivered only 15 but that's another question.

Pretty simple really.

I doubt Rand had 100 Asha'man with him (by this I mean any male channeler). Therefore he had to send a request to Taim to have some sent off to the Borderlands for their defense. It's obvious that Taim is not working for Rand at this point--whether or not he's Demandred I think it's pretty clear he's a BF at the very least. He simply doesn't pass that order along, so all that Ituralde gets sent to him are however many Rand can detach from the group with him.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 02:02 AM
That couldn't have made Rand look good to Ituralde. I wonder if, supposing that was the case, Rand figured out that the others never had been sent when he got there.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 02:19 AM
It's kind of peculiar that as of day 745 Logain claims
“More than half the Black Tower is in Arad Doman and Illian. I sent all the men with bonded Aes Sedai except those here, as you ordered.”yet "weeks" after day 769 (when the Reds Traveled to the Black Tower) and in all likelihood after day 800, long after Ituralde has been assigned to the Blight, we see
Pevara reached the huts they had been given. She purposely did not look to the side, toward the line of small buildings where the bonded Aes Sedai made their homes. She'd heard what some of them were doing, trying to control their Asha'man using . . . various methods. That made her skin crawl, too. While she thought most Reds had too harsh an opinion of men, what those women did crossed the line with a heedless leap.Is Logain somehow double-crossing Rand, or is this just a mistake? Ignore a plot-line for too long and it stops making sense, I suppose. Maybe Steven Cooper's timeline is just way off in this instance; he plots Tsutama's order to bond Asha'man at day 728 with surety, but he notes Pevara's arrival as a guess. KOD was a Jordan book with a linear, synchronized timeline, so it should fit where it's put... who knows.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 02:37 AM
How certain are you of the timelines? According to BS the Black Tower timeline is still behind:

Towers of Midnight book tour 8 November 2010 Lincoln Triangle Barnes and Noble NY, NY - Sarayne reporting


Q: Are all the time lines caught up?
Brandon: The Black Tower is still behind.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 03:02 AM
But how far behind does he mean? Obviously Rand, Mat/Moiraine, Perrin, Elayne, Nynaeve, and Egwene are synced at one day before Merrilor, but I'd kind of assumed the Black Tower storyline was only a few weeks behind, perhaps between 800 and 810.

But even if it were considerably further behind than that, it still doesn't explain the inconsistency on the Asha'man who bonded Toveine's party being at the Black Tower after they'd supposedly been evacuated–and then sent to Ituralde, but never mind that.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 03:07 AM
Well I'm not very good at deducing timelines I just don't want to believe Logain is betraying Rand. Unless of course he has been 13x13'd by now. I always got a good vibe from Logain and believed him to be loyal. Not like Taim, who from the start had a foul odor about him.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 03:27 AM
But even if it were considerably further behind than that, it still doesn't explain the inconsistency on the Asha'man who bonded Toveine's party being at the Black Tower after they'd supposedly been evacuated–and then sent to Ituralde, but never mind that.

You're right unless the Black Tower is literally several books back. That just doesn't seem to be the case. Are we now assuming that Logain evacuated the Black Tower and then re-populated it again? This whole issue is a mess.

etranger
11-14-2010, 05:30 AM
Pretty simple really. I doubt Rand had 100 Asha'man with him (by this I mean any male channeler). Therefore he had to send a request to Taim to have some sent off to the Borderlands for their defense. It's obvious that Taim is not working for Rand at this point--whether or not he's Demandred I think it's pretty clear he's a BF at the very least. He simply doesn't pass that order along, so all that Ituralde gets sent to him are however many Rand can detach from the group with him.

Ituralde not having the promised 100 Asha'men but far fewer would better explain the result of his campaign against the Trollocs, yes.

On the other hand, one would expect him to think about being promised much more Asha'men than he received in such a case, in particular when his army was driven back and destroyed. Most of his friends die partly because Rand doesn't keep his promise and Ituralde never thinks about it?

The named Asha'men with Ituralde also seemed to have been new characters which may lend itself to the view that they were rather from the Black Tower and not from those around Rand.

etranger
11-14-2010, 07:00 AM
I did get the distinct impression that they had been worn down by the constant defending so that is a partial explanation, some had to have been killed too.

They were worn down at the end, so that would have limited their effectiveness then, true.

However, when they weren't worn down yet they didn't seem to have been the force they probably should have been if there were many average to strong channelers among them, not compared to what Rand did alone or to what happened at Dumai's Wells.

I guess it's not totally impossible that they actually killed many hundreds of thousands of Trollocs when the Asha'men were still fresher, before Ituralde left the fortifications, but why was there no mention of it and why didn't the Trollocs break then in such a case?

Charlz Guybon
11-14-2010, 07:16 AM
I guess it's not totally impossible that they actually killed many hundreds of thousands of Trollocs when the Asha'men were still fresher, before Ituralde left the fortifications, but why was there no mention of it and why didn't the Trollocs break then in such a case?

I got the impression that in their exhausted last stand at the breached walls of Maradon the Asha'man killed Trollocs by the tens of thousands before falling back. I think the reason they didn't break is they didn't have the spiritual presence of Rand.

grunt
11-14-2010, 10:10 AM
It's not clear if all of Itranlde's entire force was conectrated at Maradon. It's also not clear how long that battle was.

Descriptions of the battlefield gave the impression of wave after wave of trollocs having been repelled. Trollocs are huge, and killing large numbers of them with the power is significantly more exausting than killing men. 10K trollocs would take up a helluva lot more room than 10K Aiel, and they also move almost as fast as cavalry. Add to this they they are driven by thousands of fades and supported by long range seige engines, drakghar and male chanellers, ,it becomes clear that Ituralde's force could not overwhelm them.

Ituralde knew it would be a marathon, not a race. If he exhausted his channelers completely at any point, the trollocs would quickly overwhelm him. The channelers were used to hold the trollocs while minimizing losses. I suspect that before the corpse/drakghar incident, Ituralde's losses were relatively small and he hadn't lost a channeler.

Don't forget that the trollocs were being lead by a great general. Chucking corpses with the the trebuchets, then chucking drakghar was a brilliant move by Damendred. The forsaken also made excellent use of well placed dark friends, keeping Maradon's gate closed, and a retreat horn sounded at the perfect time. If not for a mutiny by the Saldeans, Itrualde's army would have been wiped out.

Ituralde held against a massive shadowspawn army commanded by the the shadow's greatest general from the Age of Legends. He truly is a great captain, and has done the light proud. I was absolutely thrilled when he was reunited with his king.

I think we have a few good questions for Brandon from this:

How many male channelers did Ituralde have and how strong were they?

Was Ituralde's entire force concentrated at Maradon?

How long did the battle last?

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 10:45 AM
Sorry, I must have missed when it was said straight-out that Demandred was at the head of the forces that assaulted Maradon.

grunt
11-14-2010, 11:03 AM
Sorry, I must have missed when it was said straight-out that Demandred was at the head of the forces that assaulted Maradon.

It never comes straight out and says it, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption. Whoever was going against Ituralde was very good, and their use of channelers was superb. Maintaining the threat of channelers without actually engaging them while his enemy's channelers tire. He topped this off by having his channelers deliver a devastating blow without ever exposing themselves. Whoever orchestrated this fight on the shadow's side is very good, and Demandred seems the only logical candidate. If somebody else is leading the Shadow's armies, I would be shocked.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 11:18 AM
It never comes straight out and says it, but I think it's a pretty safe assumption. Whoever was going against Ituralde was very good, and their use of channelers was superb. Maintaining the threat of channelers without actually engaging them while his enemy's channelers tire. He topped this off by having his channelers deliver a devastating blow without ever exposing themselves. Whoever orchestrated this fight on the shadow's side is very good, and Demandred seems the only logical candidate. If somebody else is leading the Shadow's armies, I would be shocked.

Aah but during the Trolloc Wars, Demandred wasn't about, and the Shadow pushed well into the southlands. I believe they actually made it to the Sea of Storms?

I think we can chalk up the Shadow's efforts at Maradon to be the work of new Dreadlords and Fades. Ituralde is good, but there wasn't exactly a whole lot he could do, and the Shadow its self was limited. In the end it really did come down to pure brute force.

I would also be a little disappointed if it was Demandred leading the forces at Maradon. It would mean he basically crapped himself and ran away when Rand showed up. That's not the Demandred I imagine. He wouldn't have been able to restrain himself, he would have went after Rand.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 11:30 AM
Aah but during the Trolloc Wars, Demandred wasn't about, and the Shadow pushed well into the southlands. I believe they actually made it to the Sea of Storms?Yeah, but all they faced then were AS, who are not a very serious threat.

I would also be a little disappointed if it was Demandred leading the forces at Maradon. It would mean he basically crapped himself and ran away when Rand showed up. That's not the Demandred I imagine. He wouldn't have been able to restrain himself, he would have went after Rand.He might have been able to restrain himself if he thought that Moridin (or the DO) was paying close attention. Or if he had thought that Rand was using the Choedan Kal. He probably does not know for sure that that thing is destroyed, and running headlong into it when Rand is in battle mode would not be smart.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 11:36 AM
Yeah, but all they faced then were AS, who are not a very serious threat.

The Aes Sedai during the Trolloc Wars were hardly the children we deal with in the current times. And also, it wasn't just Aes Sedai. They had to contend with a people who were throwing up soldiers and generals non-stop who took military science to its peak. Okay maybe that's an exaggeration, Hawkwing took the science to its pinnacle. But his groundwork was laid by the generals of the Trolloc Wars.

He might have been able to restrain himself if he thought that Moridin (or the DO) was paying close attention. Or if he had thought that Rand was using the Choedan Kal. He probably does not know for sure that that thing is destroyed, and running headlong into it when Rand is in battle mode would not be smart.

Demandred hates Rand more than he fears Shai'tan. So I don't think Moridin could have kept him in check. The Choedan Kal? I can go for that.

grunt
11-14-2010, 01:05 PM
Aah but during the Trolloc Wars, Demandred wasn't about, and the Shadow pushed well into the southlands. I believe they actually made it to the Sea of Storms?

I think we can chalk up the Shadow's efforts at Maradon to be the work of new Dreadlords and Fades. Ituralde is good, but there wasn't exactly a whole lot he could do, and the Shadow its self was limited. In the end it really did come down to pure brute force.

I would also be a little disappointed if it was Demandred leading the forces at Maradon. It would mean he basically crapped himself and ran away when Rand showed up. That's not the Demandred I imagine. He wouldn't have been able to restrain himself, he would have went after Rand.

The trollock wars have little to do with this battle.

Rand wasn't just some powerful channeler killing Demandred's shadowspawn. Rand was something else entirely, a being of light that routed his massive army in just minutes. This was just a temporary setback for the shadow as they regroup, and then attack again. Remember, this isn't the only front.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 02:13 PM
The trollock wars have little to do with this battle.

How so? You're arguing that Demandred must have been at the head of the forces at Maradon because they were actually doing quite well. But the Shadow also done well during the Trolloc Wars and specifically at Maradon there wasn't a whole lot either could do. They were both tactically restrained.

You wouldn't have had to have been a Great Captain to have pinned Ituralde like that.

Rand wasn't just some powerful channeler killing Demandred's shadowspawn. Rand was something else entirely, a being of light that routed his massive army in just minutes. This was just a temporary setback for the shadow as they regroup, and then attack again. Remember, this isn't the only front.

Minutes? It took him an hour and the bodies had piled 5 feet tall just in front of him.

I wont deny Rand Sedai's Jesusness. I'm quite taken with Davian's Creator Avatar thing. But I don't think we need to reach that deep for an explanation. I thought the answer was simple:

Lews Therin was simply that bad ass.

Neilbert
11-14-2010, 02:35 PM
The Aes Sedai during the Trolloc Wars were hardly the children we deal with in the current times.

On what exactly are you basing this?

Lews Therin was simply that bad ass.

Maybe but maybe not. 13 Aes Sedai scared LTT, and the Frosaken seem to take it as a given that a circle of 13 could shield the strongest male, even if those 13 were really weak. Zen-Rand appears to be completely unconcerned about being 13 Aes Sedai shielded, and Rand also comments that he feels more like himself now than he ever did as LTT.

Servus Christi
11-14-2010, 02:45 PM
On what exactly are you basing this?

For a start, they weren't hamstrung by the Oaths. The Green Ajah were given the name of Battle-Ajah during the Trolloc Wars, so they were out in the front lines. Warders weren't asked if they wanted it when they were bonded. Aes Sedai had a job to do and weren't going to let something like a man's free will get in the way.

Maybe but maybe not. 13 Aes Sedai scared LTT, and the Frosaken seem to take it as a given that a circle of 13 could shield the strongest male, even if those 13 were really weak. Zen-Rand appears to be completely unconcerned about being 13 Aes Sedai shielded, and Rand also comments that he feels more like himself now than he ever did as LTT.

The construct in Rand's head was afraid of Aes Sedai because Rand himself was afraid because of his own limited knowledge.

But I took Rand Sedai's lack of fear to be that he knew the Pattern simply wouldn't let him be taken. I think it's as simple as him knowing he's doing what the Pattern wants and the Pattern doesn't want him locked away in the White Tower as Egwene's play-thing that she can drag out for the world to see how great she is.

As for him feeling more himself.. that's because when he was the Lord of the Morning he wasn't meant to be one with the land etcetera. His time before his rebirth was simply a stepping-stone. In a way, he wasn't really the Dragon quite yet. He was simply being forged to become the Dragon.

Edit: I sound a little too dogmatic in the post. It's all my own views and speculations of course. Can't help how I put it ;).

Neilbert
11-14-2010, 03:56 PM
For a start, they weren't hamstrung by the Oaths.

Again I ask; where are you getting this?

But I took Rand Sedai's lack of fear to be that he knew the Pattern simply wouldn't let him be taken.

Egwene seemed to think so too. This is some pretty large hintage that Rand has gotten stronger.

As for him feeling more himself.. that's because when he was the Lord of the Morning he wasn't meant to be one with the land etcetera. His time before his rebirth was simply a stepping-stone. In a way, he wasn't really the Dragon quite yet. He was simply being forged to become the Dragon.

Which side of this are you arguing again?

Davian93
11-14-2010, 06:36 PM
A couple thoughts (man this thread took off on a weekend...impressive)

1. Someone asked how long the battle was...Ituralde mentioned a time period of "weeks of fighting" in Saldaea total...so figure at least 20-30 days (2-3 weeks) total...with a good number of those days inside Maradon after the wall fell. Remember, he defended the entire border from the start. Rand only comes to save him towards the very end...literally 2 days before the Field of Merrilor (?) at the end as he met with the Borderland Kings the next day and went to meet Egwene & Co the day after (the very end of the book). So figure probably 30+ days of near constant fighting by a Great Captain.

2. I also doubt it was Demandred...there are plenty of good generals and clearly Ituralde more than decisively outgeneraled him...I'd expect more from the 2nd greatest military leader of the AoL than to get his arse handed to him by Ituralde. Also, there is no way Demandred would have let Rand destroy his army like that without trying to kill him.

dominominic
11-15-2010, 04:05 AM
Davian, you're expecting too much from Demandred. You're going to be disappointed!

These half-trained primitives have been besting veteran AoLers all series long.

Although I agree Demandred would have had a direct shot at Rand.