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Nei
11-14-2010, 02:47 AM
Now taking bets for the T'A'R match of a lifetime!

To be serious though, the speed at which Perrin gained proficiency in dreamwalking is a bit off-putting. Egwene spent a long time studying with the Wise Ones and put in many months of practice to reach the stage she is today.

Perrin just had what, a few weeks? I still say all the paddlepool Wolf-dream adventures don't really count cause that would be like spending your whole life making microwave lasagna and then picking up all the basics of cooking in a few weeks and being able to make your own from scratch. And not some crappy lasagna too, but delicious stuff. :/

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 03:03 AM
I guess learning by way of dissipating nightmares is the accelerated learning course in TAR.

Egewene was kind of taught by being told many things and given limited, chaperoned exposure even though she was entering TAR on her own behind the Wise Ones' backs. Where as Perrin was taught in a hands on way. No matter how much you prepare for a job in school, you don't really learn how to do it until you're out there doing it.

Uno
11-14-2010, 03:18 AM
Perrin had baptism by fire, basically. Besides, the Wise Ones may have centuries of experience with the dreamworld, but the wolves have probably been at it a bit longer than that.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 03:21 AM
There is also this from BS:

Towers of Midnight book tour 7 November 2010 Harvard Coop, Cambridge, MA - Zaela Sedai reporting

Q: Who is stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod (Perrin or Egwene)?
A: (not verbatim) They are both very strong, but in different ways. Perrin is very strong instinctively. Like the wolves, he makes decisions based on instinct while in Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene plans out her moves rather than going by feeling as Perrin does. If the two were matched against each other the outcome would entirely be based on what type of encounter it was.

Andrac
11-14-2010, 03:28 AM
The wolves are probably the strongest one in the world of dreams out of everyone overall as a group. I mean they can go in there when sleeping and then when they die they spend eternity there unless killed. Messana was bragging that she had been in there for a 100 years in the AoL, well there are probably wolves that have spent thousands of years in there after dying. So...yeah.

Plus hopper said he just knows how to do everything in there automatically. Imagine if the very first time you ever got into a car you were a perfect driver and knew everything about driving anyone could possibly know. Its somewhat like that.

Spidy
11-14-2010, 07:50 AM
Haven't seen the wolves see the GAP where you can go to other peoples dreams. Horses for courses but all on the same track. Don't underestimate the Eg and the learning experience.

Davian93
11-14-2010, 07:02 PM
Wolves are simply a part of TAR...its their home. No human dreamer/dreamwalker can have that type of experience/naturalness at it. Perrin will obviously end up with far superior abilities there as a result. Its his home field so to speak while Egwene will always be a visitor.

HunterOTS
11-14-2010, 07:24 PM
Haven't seen the wolves see the GAP where you can go to other peoples dreams. Horses for courses but all on the same track. Don't underestimate the Eg and the learning experience.

Isn't that gap only accessible to dreamwalkers? It was my understanding that T'A'R is for the most part unrelated to that. At least it would appear that by all means not everyone who has access to T'A'R can enter the gap, but I don't think we've met anyone who can visit other people's dreams that way but not enter T'A'R.

I think that was a big part of the training Eg had from the Wise Ones, but it has no affect on her ability to control the landscape of T'A'R, which Perrin is able to do with apparent ease.

Khoram
11-14-2010, 07:31 PM
Since Perrin is essentially "part wolf", he will always be able to inhabit TAR, whereas Egwene, even though she's a Dreamer, will always be out of her element. As BS said in the interview, Perrin has the instincts, and Egwene has learned how TAR works through lessons.

If it were up to me, Perrin would win in an all-out duel between the two - He instinctively did stuff Egwene was absolutely sure was impossible to do. Once you believe something is happening, your mind makes it real, and, in TAR, you die (in the case of balefire, or falling from ten stories up, et al.).

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 04:31 AM
Is any Hero of the Horn a Dreamwalker?
If so, then in between incarnations* this person would be the most powerful TAR presence of all.
Which sort of argues against Perrin being a HotH, come to think of it, unless he scrupulously avoids all wolves whenever he is dead. That could be the case; Hopper did not see Birgitte when she met Perrin.

* Would that be "outcarnations", then?

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 04:36 AM
I thought being a wolfbrother wasn't tied to the soul.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 05:18 AM
Maybe, maybe not. But Perrin would still remember everything from this life once he's a dead Hero, wouldn't he?

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 05:29 AM
Yea I suppose so. Well either he's a hero and goes to T'A'R when he dies or maybe he shares a wolf's fate and goes to T'A'R anyway.

natiels
11-15-2010, 10:49 AM
I really don't think it would be much of a contest. After seeing Perrin's performance vs Slayer and then looking at Egwene's constantly sluggish responses and reliance on the Power I think Perrin would have her beat easily.

While reading that chapter I thought numerous times that it would have been awesome to see Perrin vs Mesanna and her group of lackies. I think he could actually have killed them all (including Mesanna) with relative ease by himself.

As to BS's answer to the Perrin vs Egwene question, I really think it was just an answer meant to please the fans of both characters.

The Angry Druid
11-15-2010, 10:57 AM
They have different strengths.

Egwene is limited by Wise One, and Aes Sedai pre-conceptions. She thinks the OP is real in T'A'R, it isn't any more real than a nightmare.

However, she can still do things that Perrin cannot (search via need, bring someone else in, find anothers' dream in T'A'R, etc). These are things that are outside the wolf-level preconceptions, and so outside of Perrin's learning.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 11:34 AM
They have different strengths.

Egwene is limited by Wise One, and Aes Sedai pre-conceptions. She thinks the OP is real in T'A'R, it isn't any more real than a nightmare.

However, she can still do things that Perrin cannot (search via need, bring someone else in, find anothers' dream in T'A'R, etc). These are things that are outside the wolf-level preconceptions, and so outside of Perrin's learning.

I would just add that Perrin has the "advantage" of constantly struggling with is identity, both in and out of Tel'aran'rhiod. He was forced to gain control of his presence or he would turn wolf and possibly die (as he almost did back in CoT or WH). For him, it has been more of a switch (you're in the Wolf Dream or you're not), rather than the gradual and sometimes subtle training Egwene endured.

In some ways I wonder if the Wise One training is actually disadvantageous, because they keep their apprentices so restricted that they can't help but think of the Unseen World as foreign.

finn
11-15-2010, 11:44 AM
However, she can still do things that Perrin cannot (search via need, bring someone else in, find anothers' dream in T'A'R, etc). These are things that are outside the wolf-level preconceptions, and so outside of Perrin's learning.
Perrin could manage search via need. Need would be instinctual in both wolf and human. Egwene first found Amys through need without knowing it.

It's strange that Perrin has his dream foretellings within TAR itself, the sky opens up and visions appear that only he can see. Whereas Egwene goes back to her own body to experience them.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 11:51 AM
They have different strengths.

Egwene is limited by Wise One, and Aes Sedai pre-conceptions. She thinks the OP is real in T'A'R, it isn't any more real than a nightmare.

However, she can still do things that Perrin cannot (search via need, bring someone else in, find anothers' dream in T'A'R, etc). These are things that are outside the wolf-level preconceptions, and so outside of Perrin's learning.

And that will always hurt her as she relies on the OP all the time in the real world. She cant simply flip a switch in TAR. Her instincts will always be off just a little as a result.

Neilbert
11-15-2010, 12:07 PM
Egwene has to search for people visually, uses obvious patterns, doesn't think to disguise herself, and really doesn't have a brain for the tactical.

Perrin can smell where people are going to be.

I think in most realistic confrontations Perrin is going to win it hands down. Egwene might get better at TAR combat, but until she learns to follow people like Perrin IMO she is at a severe disadvantage. Slayer would have gutted her.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 12:08 PM
Egwene has to search for people visually, uses obvious patterns, doesn't think to disguise herself, and really doesn't have a brain for the tactical.

Perrin can smell where people are going to be.

I think in most realistic confrontations Perrin is going to win it hands down. Egwene might get better at TAR combat, but until she learns to follow people like Perrin IMO she is at a severe disadvantage. Slayer would have gutted her.

I think Slayer would pretty much gut anyone other than Perrin in TAR.

Khoram
11-15-2010, 12:13 PM
Egwene has to search for people visually, uses obvious patterns, doesn't think to disguise herself, and really doesn't have a brain for the tactical.

Perrin can smell where people are going to be.

I think in most realistic confrontations Perrin is going to win it hands down. Egwene might get better at TAR combat, but until she learns to follow people like Perrin IMO she is at a severe disadvantage. Slayer would have gutted her.

Then Egwene will always be at a disadvantage, because she doesn't have the presence of mind to actually change herself in such a way in the World of Dreams to make it easier(?) for her to find people in TAR.

Perrin would win hands down.

GonzoTheGreat
11-15-2010, 12:34 PM
Perrin could change himself into a wolf, Egwene would dismiss him as "that's not a human", and then he could tear out her throat before she even knew she was in trouble.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 12:49 PM
I think Slayer would pretty much gut anyone other than Perrin in TAR.I agree, given what we're shown in TOM, but then the question becomes: why hasn't he?

The Shadow has a pretty impressive collection of weapons that they've managed to use in just about the least effective possible way, really.

Although I guess it's just that Moridin was giving Mesaana enough rope to hang herself by not loaning her Isam, and she had to try the assassination attempt herself well outside of her element once her original plans to cultivate chaos failed. Seems like biting off his nose to spite his face, though.

Khoram
11-15-2010, 02:17 PM
Perrin could change himself into a wolf, Egwene would dismiss him as "that's not a human", and then he could tear out her throat before she even knew she was in trouble.

But she's seen him as a wolf in her Dreams before, and recognized him, so I don't know if she would dismiss him.

Weird Harold
12-08-2010, 10:15 PM
I think Slayer would pretty much gut anyone other than Perrin in TAR.
I'm not so sure about that.


Isam paced the room, studying by the ever-present light of Tel'aran'rhiod. The bed linens shifted from rumpled to neatly made between one glance and the next. The coverlet changed from flowered to plain dark red to quilted. The ephemeral always changed here, and he barely noticed anymore. He could not use Tel'aran'rhiod the way the Chosen could, but here was where he felt most free. Here, he could be who he wanted to be. He chuckled at the thought.

Slayer has attacked both Perrin and Nyneave, by surprise, with his bow and missed both. I think Perrin actually has more trouble fighting with him than others would because of his wolf-nature and slayers anti-wolf-brother-ness.

yasiru89
12-08-2010, 11:37 PM
I think Slayer might be a slight bit better than Perrin last we saw of them, but on the 'Chosen', they just happen to know more about the place, hence know uses even the highly initiated may not suspect in this day and Age. If Perrin's new acceptance of himself means better communication with wolves, he might find out things of the sort too- more, given the seeming ancestral memories wolves have, along with their near eternal presence in Tel'aran'rhiod.
As for Egwene, what on earth was she doing half the fight? I recall the scene and call 'meegerling!'. Perrin showing up was pure providence for her, else she'd likely not have been able to figure out how to beat the a'dam in time, as tied down in her ways as she is.

Also, I thought being a Wolfbrother was indeed something tied to the soul, just not manifest each and every time, or did I see this wrong?

lurk
12-09-2010, 05:58 AM
Since Perrin is essentially "part wolf", he will always be able to inhabit TAR, whereas Egwene, even though she's a Dreamer, will always be out of her element. As BS said in the interview, Perrin has the instincts, and Egwene has learned how TAR works through lessons.

If it were up to me, Perrin would win in an all-out duel between the two - He instinctively did stuff Egwene was absolutely sure was impossible to do. Once you believe something is happening, your mind makes it real, and, in TAR, you die (in the case of balefire, or falling from ten stories up, et al.).

This would depend on the fact if someone enters in the flesh! If you are in T'A'R' in the flesh I am pretty sure your weaves will be effective and cannot be thwarted by just thinking them to be unreal. Because they are very real

lurk
12-09-2010, 06:01 AM
Is slayer there in the felsh btw? Because that would count for some of his strength there

GonzoTheGreat
12-09-2010, 06:24 AM
At least some of the time he is there in the flesh. I don't think that is true always, but then, we do not know everything there is to know about Slayer, yet.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 08:09 AM
Wolves are simply a part of TAR...its their home. No human dreamer/dreamwalker can have that type of experience/naturalness at it. Perrin will obviously end up with far superior abilities there as a result. Its his home field so to speak while Egwene will always be a visitor.

Good point. When the wolves die, they live on in the Dream. Take Hopper for instance. WO's told Egwene to stay away from nightmares, Perrin was shoved in bodily. And not to discount any experiences, but I think the Wise Ones would be hard put to survive an encounter with Slayer. The way he moves around, the speed he moves around... his understanding. Perrin has the same ideas now, so I am not sure how fair the fight would be. Perrin's understanding of the Dream is different from Egwene's but I think it is a more effective way of looking at it.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 08:14 AM
This would depend on the fact if someone enters in the flesh! If you are in T'A'R' in the flesh I am pretty sure your weaves will be effective and cannot be thwarted by just thinking them to be unreal. Because they are very real

I am not sure about that, in the Dream that doesn't matter. It is what you think is real that counts. Perrin cannot channel but what his mind and will impose make it so. The problem with the ladies is that they are trying to channel instead of just willing things to happen. Perrin skips that step, because he realizes that it is not necessary. I'm going to have to look this up but I think it is about the control. There is no spoon.

lurk
12-09-2010, 10:25 AM
I am not sure about that, in the Dream that doesn't matter. It is what you think is real that counts. Perrin cannot channel but what his mind and will impose make it so. The problem with the ladies is that they are trying to channel instead of just willing things to happen. Perrin skips that step, because he realizes that it is not necessary. I'm going to have to look this up but I think it is about the control. There is no spoon.

Well entering in the flesh means you are not dreaming. Moggy was very afraind when Rahvin and Rand entered T'A'R in the flesh. They would be so much stronger there than she or Nynaeve. So there is a difference.

But granted the rules in T'A'R for entering in the flesh are not known except that you lose something of yourself that way according to the WO dreamers.

fionwe1987
12-09-2010, 10:45 AM
I guess I'm going to stick out like a sore thumb by saying that as things stand, Egwene would win hands down.

People are extremely impressed by Slayer, but the man ran away from Egwene, and has stated himself that he cannot use TAR like the chosen can.

Nor are the wolves the be all and end all of TAR. They are extremely strong there, but they are limited by their wolf-intelligence. Which means that while Slayers arrows will be ludicrously ineffective against the likes of Perrin and Egwene since they understand what arrows are and how to stop them, the wolves don't, and end up dying in droves.

At the early part of the fight in TAR, Egwene was bungling big time. She forgot to play to her strengths, and was treating TAR as just another battleground.

As we see, the moment she meets Perrin, it comes crashing upon her that she has been misusing her strength in TAR. Thereon, I'd argue she shows greater skill than Perrin, but what she lacks is tactical experience which Perrin has since he has been in more fights.

But notice the differences in the ways Wise Ones and Egwene fight vs. how Perrin and Slayer fight.

Slayer and Perrin essentially have a physical fight enhanced with TAR. So they have faster arrows and such. But that's it. Because in real life, they cannot easily create fire and blast the earth, they don't fight in that way. But once Egwene's perspective is set straight, she uses columns of fire that she imagines. She also uses physical weapons when necessary. That, to me, shows a broader range of abilities than Perrin currently has.

Also, people ascribe way too much to Perrin stopping Balefire. It is important to note that he could stop it because he could see it. If the Black sister had sent an invisible club of Air, Perrin wouldn't have known to stop it, just like he couldn't stop the arrow Slayer shot from behind him.

That is the true use of the OP in TAR. Egwene should use it to create wards to she can track people, and only use invisible weaves. Added to that, she has her great TAR abilities as well. She should be able to do just fine.

But should it come to a staring contest between Egwene and Perrin, I don't think either will be able to beat the other. Egwene always had a strong sense of self, and Perrin i at peace with himself now, and should be able to match her will for will.

natiels
12-09-2010, 11:46 AM
Slayer and Perrin essentially have a physical fight enhanced with TAR. So they have faster arrows and such. But that's it. Because in real life, they cannot easily create fire and blast the earth, they don't fight in that way. But once Egwene's perspective is set straight, she uses columns of fire that she imagines. She also uses physical weapons when necessary. That, to me, shows a broader range of abilities than Perrin currently has.
The fire thing wouldnt work on Slayer or Perrin, they would phase right behind her and "gut" her or they would stop the flames with their will, but when you are fighting a bunch of TAR newbs that stuff works great.

Most of the metaphysical tactics seems to fizzle as your opponent gains the ability to manipulate their surroundings. I felt like Perrin and Slayer were both so strong that they almost needed to physically engage each-other to do any real damage.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 12:02 PM
The fire thing wouldnt work on Slayer or Perrin, they would phase right behind her and "gut" her or they would stop the flames with their will, but when you are fighting a bunch of TAR newbs that stuff works great.

Most of the metaphysical tactics seems to fizzle as your opponent gains the ability to manipulate their surroundings. I felt like Perrin and Slayer were both so strong that they almost needed to physically engage each-other to do any real damage.

Right, you have me nodding my head here. Even Hopper repeatedly tells Perrin that he is "too much here" or words to that effect. I have always maintained that the thing that puts Perrin above Egwene or any channeler is that the channeler uses weaves or dreams about weaves to make things happen in T'AR. Perrin just fixes that imagine in his mind, wills it so, and it is.

Well entering in the flesh means you are not dreaming. Moggy was very afraind when Rahvin and Rand entered T'A'R in the flesh. They would be so much stronger there than she or Nynaeve. So there is a difference.

But granted the rules in T'A'R for entering in the flesh are not known except that you lose something of yourself that way according to the WO dreamers.


Tel'aran'rhiod

Q51: How was Nynaeve able to channel fire when she slept?

RJ: In TAR you can channel fire. You can channel spirit only from your sleeping body, but being in TAR is different and you can channel anything.

Q52: Can you shield someone who is in TAR by shielding their sleeping body?

RJ: If you are injured in TAR it will be transferred to your body, but not vice versa. Shielding someone in TAR will shield the body, but shielding the body is not transferred to TAR. They can channel in TAR, but of course when they come out, they are shielded.

Anyways methinks the answer to some of this is in tFoH ch55 so I am going to have to look that up too.

Wunderwaffe
12-09-2010, 03:19 PM
Perrin is ta'veren. Egwene is not. My money is on Perrin.

Tarion
12-09-2010, 05:46 PM
I think Perrin's increased learning speed is completely in line with the logic of RJ's world. Its the same with the OP - Forcing leads to a much more rapid development of Power. If you take the risky route to the top, you either sink or swim - Perrin dove into the deep end and swam.

Egwene, on the other hand, was taught the theory of swimming and spent time in the shallow end with instructors (Wise Ones). A much more sensible way to learn, but takes a lot longer.

My money's on Perrin winning, because he does it instinctively. In a world where action happens at the speed of thought, the person that stops to think loses.

Natiels, I think your point about the fancy stuff not working on experienced T'A'Rers is quite interesting. It makes a lot of sense. Funnily enough, it reminds me of the Matrix. Morpheus' sword makes a lot of sense when you're fighting people who dodge bullets.

Toss the dice
12-09-2010, 07:22 PM
I guess learning by way of dissipating nightmares is the accelerated learning course in TAR.

Egewene was kind of taught by being told many things and given limited, chaperoned exposure even though she was entering TAR on her own behind the Wise Ones' backs. Where as Perrin was taught in a hands on way. No matter how much you prepare for a job in school, you don't really learn how to do it until you're out there doing it.

I agree with this. Also, Perrin received an advanced, yet "simple" crash course in TAR through Hopper. With the Wise Ones, Egwene received a much more thorough, complex teaching encompassing a vast range of TAR subjects and issues. With the wolves, their existence and knowledge in TAR is much more simplified, and isn't limited by human thoughts and debates and pondering different things. Case in point - Perrin stopping the balefire. Egwene's knowledge and instruction actually worked against her here, in addition to her knowledge of channeling. By being taught by wolves, Perrin simply willed it gone. It was just a weave. In the simpleness of Perrin's teaching, he went "further down" than Egwene thought possible, more fully grasping and understanding the incredible power of thought in the place.

Makes sense to me. Perrin would own Egwene. Even with what she learned from Perrin and her duel with Mesaana, Egwene would still be limited by her predispositions and knowledge of the place, and her ever-present obsession with channeling.

subwoofer
12-09-2010, 07:56 PM
Right @Lurk-
Getting to her feet, Nynaeve fastened the proper image in her mind. She did not just imagine Modhedien leashed in the a'dam, she knew Moghedien was leashed, as firmly as she knew her own name...

...He focused on the nearest rose bush, a thing a span high, and imagined it growing thin, foggy. Obediently, it melted away to nothing, but as soon as the picture in his mind was nothing, the rosebush was suddenly back, just as it had been. Rand nodded coldly. It had limits, then, there were always limits and rules, and he did not know them here....

..."Please." Moghedien caught at Nynaeve's skirt. "I tell you we must get away." Stark panic made her voice painful. Moghedien's clawing terror mirrored itself on her face. "They are here in the flesh. The flesh!"

"Be quiet," Nynaeve said absently."Unless you've lied to me, that is an advantage. For me."...

..."Even if they had only dreamed themselves here, either would be stronger than we. Here in the flesh, they could crush us without blinking. In the flesh they can draw saidin more deeply than we can draw saidar dreaming."

So anyways this leads me to point out something: what most folks say about being in the flesh is based on flawed logic. You are basing your premise on what Moggy understands to be true, which isn't the whole truth according to Hopper- and I will take a wolf's word any day over one of the Forsaken, especially about the Wolf Dream. Moggy is right that Rand can draw on more power than she can, but what she doesn't understand is that you do not need to channel to have power in the Dream. Perrin can't channel a lick, but he has the understanding that what his mind believes to be real is real. If he can control his reality of the Dream better than his opponent, he wins. Egwene did the same thing when she whooped Mesaana's butt. Same thing that Nynaeve did to leash Moggy in the first place, her will was stronger than Moggy's.

lurk
12-10-2010, 03:28 AM
Right @Lurk-


So anyways this leads me to point out something: what most folks say about being in the flesh is based on flawed logic. You are basing your premise on what Moggy understands to be true, which isn't the whole truth according to Hopper- and I will take a wolf's word any day over one of the Forsaken, especially about the Wolf Dream. Moggy is right that Rand can draw on more power than she can, but what she doesn't understand is that you do not need to channel to have power in the Dream. Perrin can't channel a lick, but he has the understanding that what his mind believes to be real is real. If he can control his reality of the Dream better than his opponent, he wins. Egwene did the same thing when she whooped Mesaana's butt. Same thing that Nynaeve did to leash Moggy in the first place, her will was stronger than Moggy's.

good quotes SW, I agree with the part of the limited knowledge of Moggy.

But still there is the difference of dreaming yourself into T'A'R and entering in the flesh. The only thing about that I could find was that it is evil according to the Wise Ones. Maybe a good question for Brandon?

Weird Harold
12-10-2010, 03:46 AM
good quotes SW, I agree with the part of the limited knowledge of Moggy.

But still there is the difference of dreaming yourself into T'A'R and entering in the flesh. The only thing about that I could find was that it is evil according to the Wise Ones. Maybe a good question for Brandon?
What was it that Slayer told Perrin about the Dreamspike? "It is too real for you to simply will it out of existance," or something like that.

a dragonburned fool
12-10-2010, 07:35 AM
Well, since there is that already mentioned answer, that they are roughly equally matched
Q: Who is stronger in Tel'aran'rhiod (Perrin or Egwene)?
A: (not verbatim) They are both very strong, but in different ways. Perrin is very strong instinctively. Like the wolves, he makes decisions based on instinct while in Tel'aran'rhiod. Egwene plans out her moves rather than going by feeling as Perrin does. If the two were matched against each other the outcome would entirely be based on what type of encounter it was.so we have just to get back the balance. The advantages of Perrin are very well listed, the advantages of Egwene however are a little bit overlooked. And she does have some. Including some instincts even, not only th eplanning and regular learning part.

Fionwe already mentioned her experience in OP weaving as advantage, especially the possible use of weaves invisible to Perrin. But most important here IMHO is, that Egwene has the instinct to use weaves in battle. Which means an instinct to strike directly and variously from a distance. While Perrin's (and wolves' generally) instinct is to strike in melee. Something more - Egwene's instinct to strike from distance doesn't mean she will use the actual OP. In confrontations against BA before her meeting with Perrin, Egwene already used this quite effectively - she was faster than the BA, because the BA actually kakes an weave, while Egwene uses directly the effect. That means Egwene already has the training and experience to use directly TAR manipulation exactly in situations when the first who strikes wins. Her instinct only helps her to strike more directly than Perrin.

Another advantage for Egwene is, that she has experience about deliberately disguising her in TAR. Perrin can use the wolf image as a sort of disguise, but it doesn't still come for him naturally to think in terms of disguise. Also disguise means ability to concentrate on edtailed more or less unnatural image, which is also not part of the wolves' way. While Egwene can support elaborated artificial items (like thrones) without thinking about. It's very good ability for the aim to disguise oneself as a chair, part of the wall, or as e.g. Faile. Yes, Egwene has experience in psychological attacks too, especially since she arranged few of such psychological traps in the Shawl Test Ter'angreal.

Egwene's poor score during her meeting with Perrin in TAR is mainly due to her underestimating him, and due to her attempt been capturing him, which just wouldn't work for TAR experts of their level. But Egwene learned her lesson from this scene, while Perrin, so much as I love his "Egwene, here is dangerous" line, still does underestimate her.

Btw, her surprise about him stoping balefire doesn't mean she thinks in terms of OP. Actually Egwene did know that everything may be stopped in TAR. After the scene she thinks, that Perrin actually showed her nothing new to her. Her surprise was because stopping balefire went against her instinct. Here her dogma is not "OP rules", but "balefire destroys everything", i.e. she never considered the balefire situation as just the next example of changeable surroundings, what she should theoretically know well.

subwoofer
12-10-2010, 08:33 AM
Well, since there is that already mentioned answer, that they are roughly equally matched
so we have just to get back the balance. The advantages of Perrin are very well listed, the advantages of Egwene however are a little bit overlooked. And she does have some. Including some instincts even, not only th eplanning and regular learning part.

Fionwe already mentioned her experience in OP weaving as advantage, especially the possible use of weaves invisible to Perrin. But most important here IMHO is, that Egwene has the instinct to use weaves in battle. Which means an instinct to strike directly and variously from a distance. While Perrin's (and wolves' generally) instinct is to strike in melee. Something more - Egwene's instinct to strike from distance doesn't mean she will use the actual OP. In confrontations against BA before her meeting with Perrin, Egwene already used this quite effectively - she was faster than the BA, because the BA actually kakes an weave, while Egwene uses directly the effect. That means Egwene already has the training and experience to use directly TAR manipulation exactly in situations when the first who strikes wins. Her instinct only helps her to strike more directly than Perrin.

Another advantage for Egwene is, that she has experience about deliberately disguising her in TAR. Perrin can use the wolf image as a sort of disguise, but it doesn't still come for him naturally to think in terms of disguise. Also disguise means ability to concentrate on edtailed more or less unnatural image, which is also not part of the wolves' way. While Egwene can support elaborated artificial items (like thrones) without thinking about. It's very good ability for the aim to disguise oneself as a chair, part of the wall, or as e.g. Faile. Yes, Egwene has experience in psychological attacks too, especially since she arranged few of such psychological traps in the Shawl Test Ter'angreal.

Egwene's poor score during her meeting with Perrin in TAR is mainly due to her underestimating him, and due to her attempt been capturing him, which just wouldn't work for TAR experts of their level. But Egwene learned her lesson from this scene, while Perrin, so much as I love his "Egwene, here is dangerous" line, still does underestimate her.

Btw, her surprise about him stoping balefire doesn't mean she thinks in terms of OP. Actually Egwene did know that everything may be stopped in TAR. After the scene she thinks, that Perrin actually showed her nothing new to her. Her surprise was because stopping balefire went against her instinct. Here her dogma is not "OP rules", but "balefire destroys everything", i.e. she never considered the balefire situation as just the next example of changeable surroundings, what she should theoretically know well.

Right. Then Perrin should bite her and be done with it;)

Tarion
12-10-2010, 08:47 AM
while Perrin, so much as I love his "Egwene, here is dangerous" line, still does underestimate her. In all fairness to him, from what he sees her doing its a pretty fair judgement. She's twice tried to capture him, been confused when it failed and would have been Balefire'd to death if Perrin hadn't saved her. In that scene she does come across as an utter amateur. She makes up for it afterwards, but as she says (IIRC) - She's too used to thinking as an Aes Sedai, not as a Dreamer.

EDIT: I also disagree that Perrin's instincts are melee. His bow is always to hand and he's used it a lot in T'A'R.

a dragonburned fool
12-10-2010, 09:29 AM
In all fairness to him, from what he sees her doing its a pretty fair judgement.Yes, "from what he sees her doing" being the keywords. :) And what she's doing is exactly the most efficient way to deal with a TAR-profane, and sometimes even against at least some TAR-experienced Forsaken (Moghedien) - holding them with what thei would believe. She learned her lesson here, and he, true, had just no lesson to start with. But the plain fact is, she doesn't underestimate him now, while he still does underestimate her.

And the bow (and the instincts associated with) in TAR is a bit ulterior to melee.

In conclusion, their advantages and disadvantages balance each other.

Daekyras
12-10-2010, 10:22 AM
Btw, her surprise about him stoping balefire doesn't mean she thinks in terms of OP. Actually Egwene did know that everything may be stopped in TAR. After the scene she thinks, that Perrin actually showed her nothing new to her.

Is she really that arrogant?

Terez
12-10-2010, 10:38 AM
adbf! Welcome back. :)

a dragonburned fool
12-10-2010, 11:00 AM
Well, after I looked closer, She hesitated, however, thinking of Petrins appearance. He'd acted as if she were
a novice. How had he grown so confident, so strong? She hadn't been surprised
by the things he'd done so much as by the fact that he had been the
one doing them.
His appearance was a lesson. Egwene had to be very careful not to rely
on her weaves. Bair couldn't channel, but she was as effective as the others.
However, it did seem that for some things, weaves were better. Blowing
the wall outward, for instance, had seemed easier with a weave than by
imagining i t , where imposing her w i l l against so large and thick surface
might have been difficult.So the wording actually doesn't imply that she hadn't seen any new thing there. Stopping the balefire was a real surpise for her. But after all she doesn't classify what Perrin did as really unbelievable later when she has time to htink about. Why should she, she had seen Bair exactly as efficient as the other WO. Exactly as Egwene knew Bair would be. And she did use the advantage of fighting wihtout waeving against a BA before she met Perrin. She had all the bits of information. Perrin's deed was rather a catalyst for her to bring what she already knew to her mind and to make a better strategy.

After all for Egwene exactly this fight was her actual battle baptism for TAR. Until now her skills for fighting in TAR were rather theoretical or from the time before her training with the WO.

subwoofer
12-10-2010, 02:16 PM
Well, after I looked closer, So the wording actually doesn't imply that she hadn't seen any new thing there. Stopping the balefire was a real surpise for her. But after all she doesn't classify what Perrin did as really unbelievable later when she has time to htink about. Why should she, she had seen Bair exactly as efficient as the other WO. Exactly as Egwene knew Bair would be. And she did use the advantage of fighting wihtout waeving against a BA before she met Perrin. She had all the bits of information. Perrin's deed was rather a catalyst for her to bring what she already knew to her mind and to make a better strategy.

After all for Egwene exactly this fight was her actual battle baptism for TAR. Until now her skills for fighting in TAR were rather theoretical or from the time before her training with the WO.

Hmmmmm- those are very good points. I forgot all about Bair not being able to channel.

For me Perrin's experience in the Dream goes way back to when he rescued Faile. That was more by brute force and luck than any skill, but Hopper was there too. A big stumbling block for Perrin has been his denial of who he is. He pushed the wolves and the Dream away. The other big stumbling block is Faile but that is another thread...

I do think that Perrin is facing a much stronger opponent though. Mesaana is Forsaken and been doing her schtick for years, but she was pwned fairly handily. And it did come down to a very Neo-like moment. Slayer- I do get the impression that guy fights dirty and knows all sorts of stuff that the Forsaken do not. He may not channel, but he flits around lightening quick and he slaughters wolves inside their own domain.

That is the other thing, when it comes to teachers, Egwene had the Aiel Dreamwalkers, and they are bags of awesome. Good ladies, and very competent. But I put Hopper above them. And Hopper's way of "forcing" Perrin to get good in a relatively short period of time felt very much similar to the way the Asha'man were forced- and they are fairly bad ass right now, considering they do not have the advantage of years of schooling.

Perrin also has ta'veren on his side.

It could be a toss-up but I gotta root for the dude with the wolves. It is in my nature:)

Flinn Sedai
12-10-2010, 08:16 PM
The other thing comes down to what you mean.

Head to head, they'd probably be about evenly matched. If you're talking about something like dealing with those BA/Forsaken, Perrin wins hands down.

You see Egwene and the Wise Ones running around looking for people, and actually accepting that an ambush works.

If Perrin wanted somebody dead, as somebody said earlier, he pops behind them, knifes them, and he's off. He's more maneuverable than the Wise Ones or Egwene. It was the first thing he really learned. How to move fast. Then he had to learn how to move instantly, to avoid Slayer.

If a group of BA appeared around him, he'd simply pop behind each of them, kill them, then find them the way he found Hopper (far more effective than the way Egwene was hunting), and kill more. It'd be practically childsplay for him.

Rand al'Fain
12-11-2010, 04:00 AM
Is she really that arrogant?

Do you have to ask?

Anyways, I'd give it to Perrin. He relies on instinct, near-instant moving from place to place, learned from wolves who experience TAR alive and dead (not to mention have shared memories stretching back thousands of years), and has gone up against someone who truly exploits everything about the dream world that someone can in a life and death battle. Eggy, was taught by Wise Ones, who are knowledgeable, but are limited to only human thinking. Plus, Eggy like to jump in head first and nearly get blasted by channeling. Each time. Perrin went through the school of hard knocks (once he accepted his inner-wolf) and actually listened to Hopper. Eggy jumped in blind as a bat with all the confidence of Mat rolling some dice. Without the luck. Yes, she learned some from the Wise Ones, but she did not pay attention.

My advantage-Perrin. GO WOLF BOY!

Khoram
12-11-2010, 05:53 PM
My advantage-Perrin. GO WOLF BOY!

The wolves have to be good for something in this series. ;)

Squocka
12-12-2010, 06:22 AM
What was it that Slayer told Perrin about the Dreamspike? "It is too real for you to simply will it out of existance," or something like that.

The Dreamspike is an item that "is" in TAR as in its real state is there and its dream state is in the real world if i can put it that way.
Anything that is in TAR as a real item is much more powerful hence being there in the flesh.

That is why it could be destroyed by the lava but not willed out of existance

subwoofer
12-12-2010, 04:43 PM
The wolves have to be good for something in this series. ;)

you mean beyond the pelts and ritually becoming Trolloc fodder and poking fun at Perrin in the Dream? Yeah, they do seem to get the short end of the stick repeatedly:(

It would be nice if Perrin reaches out to them and they are like "nuh-uh, nothing doing. The last time we hooked up with you a whole lotta us were beast bait. Gotta say,wasn't fun. Why can't you call us when you take down an elephant or something? Why does it always gotta be end-of-the-world time around you?"

Squocka
12-13-2010, 02:35 AM
Why can't you call us when you take down an elephant or something? Why does it always gotta be end-of-the-world time around you?"

That's Gold

Khoram
12-13-2010, 12:18 PM
Why can't you call us when you take down an elephant or something? Why does it always gotta be end-of-the-world time around you?"

Cause there aren't any elephants in Randland, except for the s'redit with the Seanchan. ;)

fionwe1987
12-13-2010, 05:38 PM
Eggy, was taught by Wise Ones, who are knowledgeable, but are limited to only human thinking.
Since humans will trounce wolves in imagination and intelligence a hundred times out of a hundred, this is a "limitation" how?

Yes, she learned some from the Wise Ones, but she did not pay attention.
No wonder they think she's their equal now. Maybe if I stop paying attention to my teachers, I'll become wildly successful too! :rolleyes:

Belazamon
12-13-2010, 06:18 PM
Since humans will trounce wolves in imagination and intelligence a hundred times out of a hundred, this is a "limitation" how?
Spoken like someone who hasn't met very humans... ;)

Seriously, though, it's a "mindset" issue. Wolves and humans think about the world in very different ways, and thus have very different sets of expectations and reactions in similar scenarios. Kind of like Democrats and Republicans, and we know how compatible they are these days. :D

AbbeyRoad
12-14-2010, 04:35 AM
People are extremely impressed by Slayer, but the man ran away from Egwene, and has stated himself that he cannot use TAR like the chosen can.
I feel like his opinion of the Forsaken is a bit misguided. The Chosen are known as powerful and omnipotent among Darkfriends, and have a stigma that they certainly don't often live up to. I think Slayer would kill almost any of the Forsaken, and that they are less powerful than he thinks. This is coming from his limited perception of them.

As we see, the moment she meets Perrin, it comes crashing upon her that she has been misusing her strength in TAR. Thereon, I'd argue she shows greater skill than Perrin, but what she lacks is tactical experience which Perrin has since he has been in more fights.
I don't think she has more skill than Perrin. Perrin's skills seem to have manifested rather powerfully. Perrin is much faster and better at hand to hand combat than Egwene, and has at least as much sense of self to make any attack like columns of fire or any other weave more or less useless against him. Balefire had no effect, and I think Perrin could duplicate the effects of weaves and the like if he really wanted to. Perrin doesn't shoot fire at people because he doesn't need to; he can transport behind them and slit their throat before they knew what was happening, as well as hunt and track them with deadly precision. Plus, he can dispel fire with a mere thought, so feels it is insignificant compared to putting his own strength into physical blows.

Also, people ascribe way too much to Perrin stopping Balefire. It is important to note that he could stop it because he could see it. If the Black sister had sent an invisible club of Air, Perrin wouldn't have known to stop it, just like he couldn't stop the arrow Slayer shot from behind him.
Well of course, but the same could be said for anyone. Perrin could theoretically shoot invisible arrows at Egwene, or all sorts of other things that could incapacitate her. TAR seems to be more or less limited by imagination only. The point is he doesn't need to. If he is hiding in a position to be able to launch some sort of projectile at Egwene, he would be able to transport behind her and kill her just as easily and probably more effectively. Anyone who isn't looking can be struck by something they can't see. However, Perrin's senses are much stronger than Egwene's, and he would be more likely to smell her, see her at a distance, or hear her approaching, breathing, etc.

And how are these any more dangerous from things we've seen from Ishamael and Rahvin; in TDR, Ishamael takes Rand through a veritable obstacle course of death, where air turns to soot, spikes fly from nowhere, molten stone encases him, etc. Rahvin tried to separate Rand's consciousness from himself. Rand was able to fight through everything without knowing what he was doing; Perrin not only knows what he is doing now, but is very self-actualized. Egwene might put up a better fight than some think, but I doubt she could go toe to toe with Perrin for too long.

GonzoTheGreat
12-14-2010, 05:48 AM
Since humans will trounce wolves in imagination and intelligence a hundred times out of a hundred, this is a "limitation" how?Humans are also a lot smarter than earthworms. But stuff a worm and a man into a six feet deep hole, dump earth on top of them, and which would survive?

Whether or not intelligence is an advantage at all depends on the circumstances.

finn
12-14-2010, 07:19 AM
Weaves aren't a great advantage as Egwene proved when she decided to spear "Mesaana". And if she's down to using physical weapons then I see Perrin winning.

Imagination is important and its not like Perrin lacks it, on the contrary he is very adaptive. The pigeon warning system in particular was impressive. Perrin could always make up for the explosive impact of some weaves by imagining Aludra's fireworks to do his work. He represents the best of both wolves and humans and Hopper did show imagination in how he used T'A'R.

It's not just imagination but strength of the individual that provides the advantage in T'A'R, "This place is about what a person is." Egwene's strength comes from being Amyrlin to the WT which is a great asset. Perrin knows all of T'A'R as the "wolf-dream" and makes it his own, him a wolf as its ruler.

Enigma
12-14-2010, 06:21 PM
I think the main difference is that Egwene is probably better that Perrin if she is given time to plan or think something out. It does not have to be hours but if someothing unexpected comes up Perrin does not have to think he can react and his instincts are much better that Egwene's.

Khoram
12-14-2010, 07:45 PM
I think the main difference is that Egwene is probably better that Perrin if she is given time to plan or think something out. It does not have to be hours but if someothing unexpected comes up Perrin does not have to think he can react and his instincts are much better that Egwene's.

But then, Perrin is also good at thinking things through - that's been his "motto" since the beginning - "Think things through before you act". Yes, his instincts have definitely gotten much better since he's accepted the wolf within him, but that core of thinking before leaping is still with him - Egwene is more brash about things than Perrin is.

GonzoTheGreat
12-15-2010, 06:01 AM
Egwene has a bit of a tendency to prepare for entirely the wrong opponent, which may also reduce her effectiveness somewhat.

Squocka
12-15-2010, 09:24 PM
Burning Question

If Egwene thinks fire around Perrin like she did in the Tower, Does Perrin burn for the amount of time it takes him to believe it is not real. 1/4 second or less

I think that he would burn as it is real and you cant unmake the burns that happened for the microseconds it took as they did happen.

Slayer also says something to Perrin like it is possible to heal yourself in TAR in a round about way. Not fully but reduce the effects which Perrin hasn't learned yet.

I assume that you can imagine yourself not bleeding and the would with pultices on it etc and closing up for example and it would reduce the effects of a sword cut or arrow

Will have to reread tht section

AbbeyRoad
12-16-2010, 03:44 AM
If Egwene thinks fire around Perrin like she did in the Tower, Does Perrin burn for the amount of time it takes him to believe it is not real. 1/4 second or less
Balefire moves pretty quickly as well, and he was able to dissipate it with barely a thought. I don't think reaction time would be an issue; "it's just a weave."

GonzoTheGreat
12-16-2010, 06:33 AM
Slayer also says something to Perrin like it is possible to heal yourself in TAR in a round about way. Not fully but reduce the effects which Perrin hasn't learned yet.

I assume that you can imagine yourself not bleeding and the would with pultices on it etc and closing up for example and it would reduce the effects of a sword cut or arrow

Will have to reread tht sectionWhen you do, also reread the section where Slayer practices what he preaches. He happens to catch an arrow Perrin shot at him during the TR campaign, and he leaves in a hurry right after.

CreationEdge
12-16-2010, 10:15 AM
Burning Question

If Egwene thinks fire around Perrin like she did in the Tower, Does Perrin burn for the amount of time it takes him to believe it is not real. 1/4 second or less

I think that he would burn as it is real and you cant unmake the burns that happened for the microseconds it took as they did happen.



I think something about thinking (and not Weaving) someone on fire wouldn't instantly start someone on fire.

It'd be Starter's will & TAR Mastery vs. Victim's will and TAR Mastery.

Just like changing people's outfits. A strong enough Wise One can change someone else's clothing. A strong enough victim can resist it.

Mesaana tried to will Egwene stupid. They both resisted each others' attempts. Eventually the exertion ruined Mesaana, but they had to struggle first.


Also, I think you could probably let fire appear around you, but not let it burn you. ;)