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Spidy
11-14-2010, 05:44 AM
It must be no unplanned thing, that the Chosen have dwindled to the females as opposed the men.

Men are dust, even funky chicky babes like Bal'Ran'Gar.

Cept, da Boss and Demmy.

Toast list:

Aginor
Be'Lal
Rahvin
Sammael
Balthamael
Asmodean

What up with this dogs? How does work into a Theory for the LB that doesn't simply be Rand toasting the rest.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 07:08 AM
Well, there is my theory that Demandred would survive the LB, and simply walk off into the sunset.
Of course, that theory depended a bit on Taim disappearing in the same way, leaving Taimandred an unsolved mystery until after the end.

finn
11-14-2010, 07:16 AM
Rand is reluctant to kill women. That changed with Semirhage, who isn't on the list btw. He tried for Graendal but got Arangar instead.

Spidy
11-14-2010, 07:28 AM
That's an old Rand/new Rand phenom and I purposely left Sem off the list. Stil haven't got a reason from the peeps yet.

Terez
11-14-2010, 07:42 AM
Aginor - Rand
--Osan'gar - Elza with Verin assist
Asmodean - Graendal
Balthamel - Someshta
--Aran'gar - Graendal with Rand assist.
Be'lal - Moiraine
Ishamael - Rand
Lanfear - did she die? We dunno.
Rahvin - Rand
Sammael - Mashadar, with Rand and Moridin assist
Semirhage - Rand

I just realized that all of the Forsaken die in alphabetical order, with the exception of Asmodean and the 'gars (their second time). What's up with that? Mesaana's not dead yet. Not that the pattern can hold any longer - all we have left are Cyndane, Demandred, Graendal, Moghedien and Moridin.

The 'I beat a Forsaken but didn't manage to kill it' list:

Rand - Ishamael (twice)
Moiraine - Lanfear
Nynaeve - Moghedien (twice)
Egwene - Mesaana
Alivia - Lanfear
(not counting the circles that went against Forsaken at the Cleansing - even Alivia was beefed up with toys)

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 07:50 AM
Egwene - MesaanaTo be fair to Egwene: this may actually have been a good approach.

thedragonreformed
11-14-2010, 07:56 AM
Rahvin - Rand


I'd add 'With Nynaeve assist'.


The 'I beat a Forsaken but didn't manage to kill it' list:


Rand - Asmodean

Terez
11-14-2010, 08:59 AM
I'd add 'With Nynaeve assist'.
Yup. Might as well add Lanfear, since she told Rand where Rahvin was.

Rand - Asmodean
With Lanfear assist.

Kimon
11-14-2010, 09:18 AM
I don't think we should discount the possibility of some of the Forsaken surviving TG. It's implausible to suggest with some of them- Demandred and Moridin both would seem to require a showdown (likely both with Rand), and the same goes for Taim (with Logain), whether or not he's technically a Forsaken now. But Moghedien and Graendal? Rand thinks that Graendal is dead, so it's not implausible that unless he learns of his error, that she might escape being hunted down. Moghedien might well benefit from her willingness to maintain a low profile. And Cyndane? I can't see Rand taking her down, and honestly, with the exception of Alivia or Sharina (Nynaeve I suppose, but shouldn't she be busy tag-teaming the Dark One with Rand?), who amongst the forces of the light (on the female side) is strong enough to take her down, unless of course Moiraine's angreal is so uber-powerful as to make her a match for Cyndane. Certainly I don't want to see Egwene get another showdown with a Forsaken. That was the most ridiculously disappointing duel that the series has given us. So maybe two, or three, of the female Forsaken survive to sow chaos (possibly amongst the Seanchan) after the war...

thedragonreformed
11-14-2010, 09:24 AM
Yup. Might as well add Lanfear, since she told Rand where Rahvin was.

I am not sure if you are serious, but assuming you are not - might as well as add Rahvin himself, for having taken control of Andor in the first place and for being such a bad guy.

So basically Rahvin committed suicide, assisted by Rand and co!

dpt24
11-14-2010, 10:24 AM
Doubt any of the Forsaken survive, partly because I can see both Perrin, Mat, Avehandra, and maybe Sharina getting a Forsaken kill, not to mention Fain and Logain.

Plus, even if one were to survive, it might not mean much. RJ said many of the Chosen survived the War of Power, but never really went on to do a whole lot.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 10:58 AM
Moiraine - Lanfear


This is really stretching the issue. She knocked her down while she was completely distracted. Maybe Lanfear got scratched during the exchange, if that. When she actually had Lanfear's attention the fight was something like a fly against a really big fly swatter.

Alivia - Lanfear

This is even more questionable. The only evidence we have of this fight is that Alivia was severely injured. We're not even sure that Lanfear took any damage. The most you can say is that Aliva held off Lanfear but for all we know, Lanfear was getting the better of the fight before the big explosion at the end when Rand stopped channeling. Had anyone been "beaten" then either Alivia or Lanfear would be dead or stilled.

Kimon
11-14-2010, 11:23 AM
This is even more questionable. The only evidence we have of this fight is that Alivia was severely injured. We're not even sure that Lanfear took any damage. The most you can say is that Aliva held off Lanfear but for all we know, Lanfear was getting the better of the fight before the big explosion at the end when Rand stopped channeling. Had anyone been "beaten" then either Alivia or Lanfear would be dead or stilled.

Moghedien's comments from her vantage point clearly indicate that all of the other Forsaken had been driven off:

The battle was over, the other Chosen dead or flying in defeat. Plainly defeat, since the key still blazed in her head.

There is thus no reason to believe that she had gotten the best of Alivia. Cyndane injured her, yes, but Alivia drove her off. So, the duel was won by Alivia, just not decisively, as Cyndane was able to escape. The same could essentially be said about Verin's circle vs. Graendal, albeit with Kumira falling, and Daigian's circle vs. Aran'gar, albeit with Eben falling.

The fact that Moghedien also asserted that all other channeling had long since ceased however makes her supposition correct. All of the other Chosen, Cyndane included, had been defeated. The only caveat to that point is of course one of degree. Osan'gar died, the rest were repelled.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 11:26 AM
The fact that Moghedien also asserted that all other channeling had long since ceased however makes her supposition correct. All of the other Chosen, Cyndane included, had been defeated. The only caveat to that point is of course one of degree. Osan'gar died, the rest were repelled.

I guess you could call this "beaten," although, I still think this is stretching that word for all it is worth. Clearly, even Lanfear, and certainly not the others, was willing to go all in during the fight.

Jonai
11-14-2010, 02:39 PM
Alvia was using a very strong angreal, and Cynfear was unaided. And Alivia still got BBQed. A win is a win (if you want to call it that) but it was hardly a fair fight. I think without advantages, Cyndane would bbq any light sider, whether it be Nyn or Alivia. The exception being Rand, if we were willing to take her out. (He could have won on the docks).

oh and...MOGGY SHALL RISE AGAIN!!

Terez
11-14-2010, 02:44 PM
Alvia was using a very strong angreal, and Cynfear was unaided. And Alivia still got BBQed. A win is a win (if you want to call it that) but it was hardly a fair fight.
I noted that it was not a fair fight, and that including her was a stretch. She did something right, though, since she kept Cynfear away from Rand. She was rather determined to kill him.

I think without advantages, Cyndane would bbq any light sider, whether it be Nyn or Alivia.
But many Lightfriends have angreal and even sa'angreal, so there are plenty of opportunities.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 02:54 PM
I noted that it was not a fair fight, and that including her was a stretch. She did something right, though, since she kept Cynfear away from Rand. She was rather determined to kill him.

Yeah, the more I think on it, I think you can definitely consider this a "win." And even in regard to the advantages, it was still pretty impressive; she was going against someone who probably knows more about the One Power than anybody.

WinespringBrother
11-14-2010, 03:57 PM
Elza certainly needed help against O'san'Gar (read: Callandor) and help from Merise and Jahar (was Verin helping her a typo?)

Kimon
11-14-2010, 04:01 PM
Elza certainly needed help against O'san'Gar (read: Callandor) and help from Merise and Jahar (was Verin helping her a typo?)

Compulsion...

Terez
11-14-2010, 04:39 PM
Elza certainly needed help against O'san'Gar (read: Callandor)
Yes but she was a Darkfriend so she gets extra cool points for blasting him. Also, the second list was less definite than the first. Dead is dead. 'Win' is less strictly defined.

and help from Merise and Jahar (was Verin helping her a typo?)Compulsion...
Righto. Merise and Narishma don't get many cool points for this one.

WinespringBrother
11-14-2010, 05:05 PM
Compulsion...

Giving Verin credit there would be fair if you give Nynaeve partial credit for Aran'gar as well.

Yes but she was a Darkfriend so she gets extra cool points for blasting him. Also, the second list was less definite than the first. Dead is dead. 'Win' is less strictly defined.


Righto. Merise and Narishma don't get many cool points for this one.

Merise did let Elza control the circle, otherwise she would have been just lending a little strength instead of wielding devastating power.

shadar
11-14-2010, 06:04 PM
This is really stretching the issue. She knocked her down while she was completely distracted. Maybe Lanfear got scratched during the exchange, if that. When she actually had Lanfear's attention the fight was something like a fly against a really big fly swatter.
Lanfear was flyswatting with an almost sa'angreal that Moiraine left for her as bait. How effective it was in the long run is hard to tell - but it was planned and Moiraine won.
Moiraine with Angreal vs Lanfear might have been very different.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 08:26 PM
Lanfear was flyswatting with an almost sa'angreal that Moiraine left for her as bait. How effective it was in the long run is hard to tell - but it was planned and Moiraine won.
Moiraine with Angreal vs Lanfear might have been very different.

Two Points:

First, even though I don't have my books handy right now, I'm pretty sure Lanfear completely leveled both Moiraine and Lan before even picking up the almost sa'angreal; that came later.

Second, you're probably right that Moiraine with the almost sa'angreal against Lanfear unaided would be an interesting fight, but what this has to do with anything I was talking about is beyond me. I was simply making the point that the "fight" that did occur wasn't much of a real fight and whatever it was, it would be hard to argue that Moiraine "beat" Lanfear. I guess you can say that she disabled her and prevented her from killing Rand, so she "won" in that sense.

That being said, Lanfear against Moiraine with no gimmicks is not all together different than a gigantic fly swatter against an insect.

morat'corlm
11-14-2010, 09:54 PM
But it isn't as if that happened by accident; Moiraine planned the entire confrontation out ahead of time and manipulated the battlefield so it would play out that way. She definitely won, because as the defender she prevented the aggressor from accomplishing her goals; that she would have lost in a cage match is immaterial.

Terez
11-15-2010, 02:38 AM
Giving Verin credit there would be fair if you give Nynaeve partial credit for Aran'gar as well.
Not really the same.

WinespringBrother
11-15-2010, 08:36 AM
Not really the same.

Nynaeve found Graendal and Aran'gar through her own ingenuity. Nynaeve's healing ability and initiative gave Rand the idea in the first place. While Aran'gar just happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, one Chosen was going down no matter what, due to Graendal's sense of self-preservation.

Elza was just in the right place at the right time. While she had motivation from the compulsion, Nynaeve had motivation from her own sense of justice. I don't see how that difference causes one to get credit and one to not.

So yeah, not the same ;) Though both ended up getting lucky kills.

Neilbert
11-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Not really the same.

Yet you wanted to give Lanfear partial credit for telling Rand where Rhavin was. Even though Mat and Asmodean told him enough to have it well figured out.

Rand wouldn't have found Graendal if not for Nynaeve.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 11:15 AM
Yet you wanted to give Lanfear partial credit for telling Rand where Rhavin was. Even though Mat and Asmodean told him enough to have it well figured out.

Rand wouldn't have found Graendal if not for Nynaeve.

These technicalities are becoming a little ridiculous in any case, in my opinion.

If we really want to examine the issue in great detail, we'd almost have to give Lanfear 90% of the credit for Rand's defeat of Asmodean. Had she not come and warned him, not only would Rand have found it impossible to beat Asmodean, he would never have gotten the access key or, presumably, cleansed the taint.

So if we're going to start handing credit several people removed, a lot of what Rand did after meeting 'Lady Selene' was only possible because of Lanfear. Indeed, he would have long ago gone insane without her or been defeated by Asmodean or another one of the Forsaken. You might as well give Lanfear a token 50% credit for everything Rand did in the aftermath of their meeting (or better put, in the aftermath of their reunion).

So I think for purposes of sanity, we should simply eliminate this kind of thinking when determining who should get credit for what.

WinespringBrother
11-15-2010, 11:34 AM
These technicalities are becoming a little ridiculous in any case, in my opinion.

If we really want to examine the issue in great detail, we'd almost have to give Lanfear 90% of the credit for Rand's defeat of Asmodean. Had she not come and warned him, not only would Rand have found it impossible to beat Asmodean, he would never have gotten the access key or, presumably, cleansed the taint.

So if we're going to start handing credit several people removed, a lot of what Rand did after meeting 'Lady Selene' was only possible because of Lanfear. Indeed, he would have long ago gone insane without her or been defeated by Asmodean or another one of the Forsaken. You might as well give Lanfear a token 50% credit for everything Rand did in the aftermath of their meeting (or better put, in the aftermath of their reunion).

So I think for purposes of sanity, we should simply eliminate this kind of thinking when determining who should get credit for what.

Isn't sanity overrated?

I guess it's a good thing that when Nynaeve was raised, we didn't see the following:

Nynaeve: Oh by the way, Mother, you should add Graendal to my list of wins. See, there was this compelled messenger, a fortress and a lot of balefire ...

Sitters: WHAT??!!!

Especially if Graendal turned up there again in AMOL

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 11:46 AM
Isn't sanity overrated?

I guess it's a good thing that when Nynaeve was raised, we didn't see the following:

Nynaeve: Oh by the way, Mother, you should add Graendal to my list of wins. See, there was this compelled messenger, a fortress and a lot of balefire ...

Sitters: WHAT??!!!

Especially if Graendal turned up there again in AMOL

That's my point; if we start going into technicalities, we might as well start handing some of the Forsaken large swaths of credit, in Lanfear's case, almost half of whatever Rand has done since picking up Callandor.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 11:48 AM
That's an old Rand/new Rand phenom and I purposely left Sem off the list. Stil haven't got a reason from the peeps yet.
Poor Spidy...still no answer to the question.

What was it again?

Something about why mostly the male Chosen have been killed (excepting Semirhage, whom you've left off for some good reason)?

Clearly it's because the men are more willing to grab positions of power where they are exposed (Sammael, Bel'al, and Rahvin), whereas most of the women pull the strings behind the scenes (Mesaana, Graendal, Semirhage). The remainder are either the scared ones (Asmodean and Moghedien) or the ones who prefer talk to action (Isha'mael and Lanfear).

I'm purposefully leaving Aginor and Balthamel off the list.

Demandred is in one of those groups above, but his impact on the plot is going to be so stunning that nothing could be truly revealed about him until the very end. At which point he will be killed by Fain before he can get close to taking out Rand. :cool:

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 12:16 PM
This is an awful lot of purposefully leaving people off of lists for trying to draw correlations between what came of nine (ten?) people.

As for why... ah, here we go. (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RapeAsDrama)

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 12:58 PM
This is an awful lot of purposefully leaving people off of lists for trying to draw correlations between what came of nine (ten?) people.


Indeed. This is Theoryland, remember? And Spidy's been around forever. ;)