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View Full Version : Elan/Ishamael/Moridin: the odd duck Forsaken


SixPips
11-14-2010, 08:07 AM
I enjoy trying to think outside the realm of the obvious theories and questions, and many times I like to come up with a theory that is wildly implausible just to see if I can defend it. It was one such theory that I came up with that I found had much more merit than I initially realized and thought it may be provoking enough of an idea to post it and get some review from other people. It involved Elan/Ishamael/Moridin, and if you will hear it out I think it has some merit. I am going to put a few points out before I name the theory, so try and see if you can come up with it before I name it.

There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again. Ishamael talks about his past fights with Lews Therin/Rand and how the two of them are spun out to fight one another.

There is only one of the Darkfriends/Forsaken that serve the Dark One without the typical failings of ambition, greed, and aspirations of self. When Rand and Moridin are sharing a dream together, Moridin reveals he follows the Dark One out of his own twisted logic. If the light and darkness fight eternally as long as the light keeps winning, and the fight only ends when the darkness finally wins, Moridin reasons that one should serve the darkness since it will have to inevitably win and once done, it is over.

Moridin is the only man who remembers past fights that would be the expected equivalent of The Last Battle. He tells us about all the different strategies he has tried to bring the absolute victory to the Dark One during his reminiscence over his much speculated board game.

Moridin is linked with Rand, they share physical attributes such as pain, like when Rand lost his hand.

I feel the pattern spins out people with a purpose when it brings them back into prominent positions such as the Dragon or the Dragonís antithetical foe. I feel there is a good chance of converting Moridin to the light, if one can shatter his logical worldview. I think the way this could be done would be very reminiscent of how Galadís worldview is broken during the fighting in Towers of Midnight against the Trollocs. Moridin feels one should simply surrender to the Dark Oneís own inevitability, and that one should enjoy the time one has left until he does win. There are a couple of logical points one could prove to Moridin that if done so, I feel may turn him to the Light.

Moridin thinks one should live life until the Dark One is victorious. However, if one could show him that it is far better to enjoy life in times of peace, to know love and happiness instead of pseudopower and false control, he would realize that as long as he fought the Dark One he would have a much more preferable life. If he thinks the Dark One will inevitably win and destroy all of existence, he should feel it is logical to fight him and put that ending off as long as possible, since he would have a MORE enjoyable life in the meantime, and the end results would be the same.

In conclusion, I think that Moridin/Ishamael/Elan has the best knowledge and opportunity to cause the greatest damage to the Dark One. I think he can be turned from the Dark to the Light if he is presented the proper opportunity and the proper lessons, and I feel that if there is any way to rid the Pattern of the Dark One, he has the best shot of revealing it. It may even be that he feels ridding the Pattern of the Dark One is illogical since he told Rand that killing him would be monumentally stupid, but what if he knows some obscure thing that would help to do so if he shared it?

Terez
11-14-2010, 08:57 AM
You aren't the first to suggest it. I find it highly unlikely - RJ painted him as a character beyond redemption.

SixPips
11-14-2010, 09:43 AM
You aren't the first to suggest it. I find it highly unlikely - RJ painted him as a character beyond redemption.

It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption. True she says this while speaking about padan fain, but I feel that it could carry weight here as well.

GonzoTheGreat
11-14-2010, 10:25 AM
Would be fun if Fain begged Rand to help him return to the Light.

Terez
11-14-2010, 10:37 AM
It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption.
Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that RJ intended Ishamael to be redeemable.

alleluia_cone
11-14-2010, 11:12 AM
It seems that way, but consider this, Moiraine points out in book two that no man is so deep into the shadow that he is beyond redemption. True she says this while speaking about padan fain, but I feel that it could carry weight here as well.

Fans have been theorizing since almost the beginning of the series that one of the Forsaken would turn to the light and I have to say, it seems every time Jordan was broached on the issue he was quite thorough at either shutting it down completely or hinting at how we were misinterpreting the characters. He seems to like Black and White characters.

Tower of Ghanja
11-14-2010, 01:36 PM
They need an enormous shaft down which Moridin, gavely wounded, can toss the Emperor, I mean, Dark One.

Belazamon
11-14-2010, 08:12 PM
Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that RJ intended Ishamael to be redeemable.
Could at least lead to a good "We were so close to redeeming him, in the end" moment, though...

Dewairah
11-14-2010, 09:06 PM
There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again.


I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?

SixPips
11-15-2010, 06:54 AM
I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?

That is true, but assuming that the author would not leave such important information offscreen, RJ hasn't mentioned any of the other Forsaken being reborn time and again as servants of the Dark One.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 08:02 AM
I dont recall that being proven anywhere.

I know Ishamael stated that he had lived and fought rand a thousand times..

But i dont remember any passage that stated that of all the forsaken/dark friends/etc only he had been spun out more than once..?

Ishamael was half mad. Ishamael theorized that this Good/Evil battle had happened repeatedly with him on one side and LTT on the other. That doesnt make it fact.

To quote RJ, "You believed Ishamael?!?"

Terez
11-15-2010, 08:59 AM
Ishamael was half mad. Ishamael theorized that this Good/Evil battle had happened repeatedly with him on one side and LTT on the other. That doesnt make it fact.

To quote RJ, "You believed Ishamael?!?"
Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 11:00 AM
Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.

Stupid interviews...

One Armed Gimp
11-15-2010, 11:12 AM
There is only one man on the side of the shadow who has been spun out into the pattern time and time again. Ishamael talks about his past fights with Lews Therin/Rand and how the two of them are spun out to fight one another.

This is still a fail though. Ishydin and Rand are definitely intertwined, but we do know that there is very little room for change in the Pattern, some changes it allows, others it doesn't. I would imagine that the forsaken are generally the same souls from one pass of the age to the next.

Grig
11-15-2010, 12:06 PM
Yes, but Brandon confirmed it. Do try to keep up.

Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.

One Armed Gimp
11-15-2010, 12:20 PM
Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.

If she is referring to the quote I think she is, he merely confirmed that Rand's soul and Ishy's soul are "frequently woven together in the Pattern."

SixPips
11-16-2010, 07:42 AM
Did he ever confirm that Ishamael actually has the memories he pretends to have? Because until then, we're still in "You believed Ishamael?!?" territory here. He has long deliberately lied to and misled the protagonists. So he figured out that they've fought throughout the ages (or the DO told him that), but that doesn't make him any better suited to "cause the greatest damage to the DO" or anything like that.

I am not referring to a time when Ishamael spoke with a protagonist, or even another of the forsaken, but when he plays his board game by himself and we see his idle thoughts. Why lie in his own mind? It would accomplish less than nothing. its not a matter of "You believed Ishamael" territory, its a matter of "Ishamael believed Ishamael" in which case I don't think he is mad. The man is too logical, too straightlaced in his service to the Dark One, and too predictable (everything he does is bound to affect the three village boys) to be anything but a Logical Minded, Intelligent, Sane man.

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 08:00 AM
You can be totally logical in your train of thought but still have insane conclusions if the given information you're applying logic too is wrong.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2010, 08:48 AM
I think that Ishamael got at least some of his information from the DO, and that makes it just a trifle suspect.

dominominic
11-16-2010, 09:15 AM
I think that Ishamael got at least some of his information from the DO, and that makes it just a trifle suspect.

You mean we can't trust the Father of Lies?

Caveatar
11-16-2010, 12:53 PM
You mean we can't trust the Father of Lies?

I wouldn't trust ANYONE in Randland.
Except maybe Mat. Yeah, Mat.
:)

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 12:55 PM
I wouldn't trust ANYONE in Randland.
Except maybe Mat. Yeah, Mat.
:)

That's Coplin talk for you. Surely you would trust Bran al'Vere?

dominominic
11-16-2010, 01:57 PM
I wouldn't trust ANYONE in Randland.
Except maybe Mat. Yeah, Mat.
:)

I like the style of that Murandian king too.

Although when his serving man asked him what colour he'd like his new coat he did say, "I demand red!"

Whatever that means...

Toss the dice
11-16-2010, 02:35 PM
Yes, I know. But that doesn't make it true, nor does it mean that RJ intended Ishamael to be redeemable.

He's not citing this theory as true, only that it is possible. I agree with him.

Just because you don't THINK it will happen doesn't mean it can't, Terez. I give this theory about 50 times greater chance of coming about than any of your recent "theories." Speaking of which, how did ToM work out for you? (I already know)

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2010, 03:41 PM
He's not citing this theory as true, only that it is possible. I agree with him.

Just because you don't THINK it will happen doesn't mean it can't, Terez. I give this theory about 50 times greater chance of coming about than any of your recent "theories." Speaking of which, how did ToM work out for you? (I already know)

Wait, are we talking about this theory, or Terez's theories? And why are you asking questions to which you already know the answer?

Caveatar
11-16-2010, 08:28 PM
That's Coplin talk for you. Surely you would trust Bran al'Vere?

Is he the man whose chromosomes are responsible for Egwene al' Vere?
If so then, Nah. :D

SixPips
11-17-2010, 06:36 AM
I like the style of that Murandian king too.

Although when his serving man asked him what colour he'd like his new coat he did say, "I demand red!"

Whatever that means...

I don't know if this is in the book or not, and if it isn't its a funny joke; if it is, does anyone else see it as BS sneaking in and saying "I AM DEMANDRED"?

Mort
11-17-2010, 08:00 AM
Wait, are we talking about this theory, or Terez's theories? And why are you asking questions to which you already know the answer?

Silly dog, they are fighting. Or at least throwing snyde remarks at each other, which on the Internet is close to trench warfare. :)

On topic: I would like to see a redemption thing happen. Not very likely though. The only ones who would be candidates for something like that would be Asmo, Moridin and since ToM, perhaps Cyndane/Mierin. Asmo is dead, Moridin might be turned if he saw "the error of his logic", but he is pretty firm to his convictions, unless Jesus Rand can turn him around. Mierin has never really been a true pet of the DO. She made offers to Rand to rule together, fighting the DO. I think she was honest about that. Somehow maybe she might help Rand out in defeating the DO. Especially as it seems she has been broken by Moridin in ToM, unless it's a trap, but I don't think so.

SixPips
11-17-2010, 09:22 AM
Who knows, I'm still not convinced Sammael is dead yet :D Rand turns his back, and when he turns back around Sammael is gone and everyone assumes the man is dead??

Mort
11-17-2010, 09:44 AM
Who knows, I'm still not convinced Sammael is dead yet :D Rand turns his back, and when he turns back around Sammael is gone and everyone assumes the man is dead??

RJ confirmed Sammael died in Shadar Logoth. Can't remember if he ever said he could be brought back though. Seems kinda hard if your soul gets eaten. He probably would be back already if he could have been.

Landro
11-17-2010, 11:40 AM
Ishy has mentioned that it's possible to turn the Creator's champion. (This what the Borderlanders' prophesy warned about) Wouldn't it then be logical for it to be possible to turn the DO's champion?

The argument against this is that Ishy's game only includes the Creator's champion but the Fisherking could be representation of both champions rather than just the Creator's champion as Ishy assumes.

GonzoTheGreat
11-17-2010, 11:55 AM
RJ confirmed Sammael died in Shadar Logoth. Can't remember if he ever said he could be brought back though. Seems kinda hard if your soul gets eaten. He probably would be back already if he could have been.I've heard RJ give the following comment on Sammael:
Sammael is dead. He is dead. He is dead. He may be reborn again, but then he will not remember he was Sammael. He cannot be reincarnated. He is dead.From that, I concluded that Sammael is dead, but I could of course be mistaken.

dominominic
11-17-2010, 12:46 PM
I don't know if this is in the book or not, and if it isn't its a funny joke; if it is, does anyone else see it as BS sneaking in and saying "I AM DEMANDRED"?

Just a joke sir.

morat'corlm
11-17-2010, 05:39 PM
Ishy has mentioned that it's possible to turn the Creator's champion. (This what the Borderlanders' prophesy warned about) Wouldn't it then be logical for it to be possible to turn the DO's champion?Perhaps it would have been before Shai'tan got the direct interface to his brain in the last book or so. I'm guessing it's too late now for Elan Morin Tedronai.

I wonder if Moridin can expand/shrink his body and cut off access to the Source the way Shaidar Haran can.

SixPips
11-18-2010, 07:04 AM
I've heard RJ give the following comment on Sammael:
From that, I concluded that Sammael is dead, but I could of course be mistaken.

Nope, I think that's pretty clear. In the Bible saying something three times shows the great resolution of the truth behind it, plus RJ tends to follow the oath "I will not lie to my fans because they will hunt me with a vengeance if I do."

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 07:38 AM
Nope, I think that's pretty clear. In the Bible saying something three times shows the great resolution of the truth behind it, plus RJ tends to follow the oath "I will not lie to my fans because they will hunt me with a vengeance if I do."Well, technically, if you assume that the "he" refers to Sammael, RJ said it four times. Which may throw some doubt on things once again.
If you assume that it does not refer to Sammael, then that raises interesting additional questions, which I will leave as an exercise for the reader.

SalvorHardin
11-23-2010, 11:48 PM
Ishy has mentioned that it's possible to turn the Creator's champion. (This what the Borderlanders' prophesy warned about) Wouldn't it then be logical for it to be possible to turn the DO's champion?

The argument against this is that Ishy's game only includes the Creator's champion but the Fisherking could be representation of both champions rather than just the Creator's champion as Ishy assumes.
This is how I think the story ends.

The Dark One spent 12 books trying to turn Rand, not kill him, and as Rand says in ToM, "He almost had me." The ultimate victory for the DO isn't breaking free; it's turning the champion of the light to evil.

Which leads me to believe that the greatest victory of the light would be to turn the DO's champion.

It's certainly been hinted at that Rand and Ishydin are two sides of the same coin, and Graendel remembers a time when Elan had real, legit feelings. Being beyond redemption doesn't mean being beyond repentance.

I also remember Ishydin musing to himself, in the sha'rah chapter, about never losing if you're playing both sides of the board. Certainly seemed like he was talking about more than just a game of chess.

In that chapter and several others, the character is written in a way that seems to convey a weariness with a fate he's lived out thousands of times.

Combine all of the above with Rand's epiphany that he's not a weapon, and the "One lives, one dies," and a whole slew of other prophesies/dreams/viewings, and I'd wager Ishy takes the road less traveled in AMoL.

z10
11-24-2010, 12:57 AM
I find Moridin to be the most interesting character in all of Randland. Certainly, he seems to be the only one that has gone to the shadow because of a sound rational reason and not out of a desire for power or immortality. A true philosopher, even if his position is one that most won't agree with.

GonzoTheGreat
11-24-2010, 04:17 AM
The Dark One spent 12 books trying to turn Rand, not kill him, and as Rand says in ToM, "He almost had me." The ultimate victory for the DO isn't breaking free; it's turning the champion of the light to evil.I do think that the ultimate victory for the DO would be breaking free, but in order to manage that, having the Champion of the Light help would be very beneficial*.

* "Beneficial" does not seem the right word. Maleficial (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/maleficial) might be better.