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View Full Version : What can Aviendha do differently? We know she tried and failed


jana
11-15-2010, 05:28 AM
From the vision:

But that raised a larger problem, one her mother had often spoken of. What was it to be Aiel, now that their duty to the past had been fulfilled, their toh as a people cleansed?

What is the consensus on what the Aviendha in the visions knew?

My feeling is that the "future Aviendha" only spoke to Nakomi, and didn't go through the columns. That would explain why she is questioning what it is to be Aiel, but wasn't strong enough to do more than that.

But what was the purpose of the Aiel now? If they did not wait for the Car'a'carn, what did they do? Fight, yes. And then? Continue to kill one another on raids? To what end?

This is Aviendha's thought before she goes through the columns, so "future Aviendha" would have said the things that Padra remembers even if she hadn't gone through the columns.


So the "real Aviendha" has to do more than just question things.

People often mention that she'll have Rand include the Aiel in the Dragon's Peace, but I really don't think that would matter. The Seanchan didn't attack the Aiel. It was the other way around. All they had to do was be responsible and not attack the Seanchan. Would words from Rand really be enough to keep them from doing this? I don't think they would be. I feel like they would do the same thing even if they were involved in the Dragon's Peace, if nothing else changes.
"This peace of the Dragons will not last long, anyway," Alalved said. "Skirmishes between the nations are common, though none speak of them."
"The Dragon's Peace-"
"What care do they have for the Dragon?" Hehyal asked. "They are invaders who forced him to bow to their Empress. She is considered above him. They will not keep promises they made to an inferior."

All of these were assumptions. Several decades after the first quote, the Peace still existed between everyone except the Aiel. Even if the Aiel had been included in the Dragon's Peace, they still would have assumed it would have been broken.

I also don't buy that Aviendha can change anything by convincing Rand not to kneel to Tuon. Most of the above quotes apply to that too. He kneeled to her, but the Seanchan still kept their word. This is all down to the Aiel being stubborn and deceitful and convincing the wetlanders to fight the Seanchan

She has to stop that somehow and it won't happen by including the Aiel in the Peace or by convincing Rand not to kneel. She might try both of those things but she has to come up with something else.



And here is that something else:

Change the names of her kids. I was extremely upset by their names.

Padra
Jandhuin (this one I'm alright with)
Alarch (wtf?)
Marinna


If it was up to me they would be named after Rand and Aviendha's heroes, and Aviendha needs to make sure that the consonants run together in annoying ways to make them more difficult to pronounce. (See: Albus Severus. It should have at least been Severus Albus) They all need middle names, too. So here goes.


Thomoiraine al'Thor
Nynaeve Verin al'Thor
Tarna Alanna al'Thor
Rodelanfear Matuon al'Thor

Now they will be so ashamed of their names that they will refuse to speak at public functions, and will never suggest that fighting the Seanchan is a good choice to make.

Terez
11-15-2010, 06:05 AM
I also don't buy that Aviendha can change anything by convincing Rand not to kneel to Tuon.
I'm glad you said this. Most people seem to jump to that conclusion, probably because we're so set on the idea of the Seanchan prophecies having been corrupted by Ishamael, etc., so obviously Tuon believes the wrong prophecies. But Oncala's assumption didn't seem to have any real merit.

She has to stop that somehow and it won't happen by including the Aiel in the Peace or by convincing Rand not to kneel. She might try both of those things but she has to come up with something else. I have an idea that covers all of the major problems quite neatly, though I bet some would find it to be distasteful.

Aviendha has to convince the Aiel to return to the Way of the Leaf after the Last Battle. They can no longer seek honor in war in an age of peace, or they will lose honor for no purpose. Urien says that the old prophecies claim the Aiel will 'take back their places of old'. Which means that they will have to return to earning honor through service, rather than through warfare.

That leaves another problem. The Aiel presence might well have been the only thing that was holding off the post-Tuon Seanchan from attacking. Without the Aiel, the non-Seanchan nations would all be relatively defenseless.

And yet another problem - who are the Aiel to serve, if not the Aes Sedai? I imagine they could serve the Aes Sedai as they did before, but it seems to serve no real purpose.

And the final problem...in the future Aviendha saw, the Seanchan still used damane. The practice of slavery and collaring channelers is reprehensible and none of us want the series to end with that not having been resolved in some way.

So, the solution. Aviendha convinces Rand that he must accept the Consolidation. The only way to keep the Seanchan from bloodily swallowing everything up in the future is to allow them to peacefully swallow it all now.

In order to convince Tuon to do away with the practice of collaring channelers and slavery, she will have to be offered something in return. The offer of completing her Consolidation might just do the trick.

The practice of da'covale can be abolished, or perhaps limited only to criminal offenses like Suroth, with no hereditary implications. The Aiel can fill that gap, earning honor through their service to the Empire.

jana
11-15-2010, 06:27 AM
The Aiel presence might well have been the only thing that was holding off the post-Tuon Seanchan from attacking. Without the Aiel, the non-Seanchan nations would all be relatively defenseless.

I have one little nitpick, but I actually like your idea. But the nitpick first. I seem to recall (but don't feel like looking right now so maybe you can tell me) that the Aiel fighting them, or maybe it was the rest of the nations joining in, actually helped the Seanchan because they had a lot more damane to use. I just... don't feel like there's an indication that the Seanchan would have attacked without being provoked, but maybe that's wishful thinking.


Anyhow, I don't have much of a problem with Seanchan taking over everything if they abolished slavery.

Or Aviendha could attempt to talk Rand into asking them to destroy all of the a'dam and promise not to create anymore in exchange for kneeling to Tuon. I'm not sure she'd go for that, though.

David Selig
11-15-2010, 06:32 AM
Yes, it was mentioned that Oncala's plan backfired:
ToM, Ch.49

The real turning point in the war had been the entry of the other nations. After that, the Seanchan had been able to seize wetlander peoples and cull more channelers from their ranks.

finn
11-15-2010, 06:57 AM
Aviendha has to convince the Aiel to return to the Way of the Leaf after the Last Battle. Rand could do that instead of "abandoning the Aiel" as Aviendha heard alleged within the ter'angreal vision. Prophecy says he will "slay his people with the sword of peace, and destroy them with the leaf"

And the final problem...in the future Aviendha saw, the Seanchan still used damane. The practice of slavery and collaring channelers is reprehensible and none of us want the series to end with that not having been resolved in some way.

So, the solution. Aviendha convinces Rand that he must accept the Consolidation. The only way to keep the Seanchan from bloodily swallowing everything up in the future is to allow them to peacefully swallow it all now.

In order to convince Tuon to do away with the practice of collaring channelers and slavery, she will have to be offered something in return. The offer of completing her Consolidation might just do the trick.
The Karaethon cycle again hints at the solution and perhaps contradicts the Essanik cycle. Instead of Rand kneeling to Tuon, "He shall bind the nine moons to serve him." Making Tuon damane for a bit, exposes the suldam lie and brings the Seanchan hierarchy tumbling down. They'll have to adapt to Mat's alternatives in warfare if they can't continue relying upon suldam as they once did.

jana
11-15-2010, 07:08 AM
The Karaethon cycle again hints at the solution and perhaps contradicts the Essanik cycle. Instead of Rand kneeling to Tuon, "He shall bind the nine moons to serve him." Making Tuon damane for a bit, exposes the suldam lie and brings the Seanchan hierarchy tumbling down. They'll have to adapt to Mat's alternatives in warfare if they can't continue relying upon suldam as they once did.

I don't think they contradict each other. They can both easily happen. Kneeling to Tuon is a simple gesture. It's important to her, but the kneeling itself doesn't mean she commands him. The strongest of the two is clearly the binding the nine moons part. I really doubt she'll be collared though. I think Mat would have a hissy fit. I suppose it could happen before he arrives, though.

That scenario would piss me off though. I want her to come to the realization herself that the whole thing is wrong, not be forced into it by being collared.

dpt24
11-15-2010, 07:37 AM
I wouldn't burn my book, but if the Seanchan were to be given all of the continent, then books would be thrown. I think they'll let the Seanchan keep what they've got, and that Mat will be involved in ending the slavery, especially since he's saved 4 Aes Sedia, and his sister can channel. I think Tuon's ability to channel is going to be important, although how, I'm not sure. Then, the focus of thet Outriggers is reclaiming Seanchan. Seanchan+Altra+Tarbon+Falme is more than enough land for any 1 empire

Terez
11-15-2010, 07:44 AM
The Karaethon cycle again hints at the solution and perhaps contradicts the Essanik cycle.
Actually, the Karaethon Cycle appears to contradict the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle, brought across the ocean with Luthair Paendrag. The Essanik Cycle is a different thing altogether.

Terez
11-15-2010, 07:45 AM
I wouldn't burn my book, but if the Seanchan were to be given all of the continent, then books would be thrown.
No one cares.

There's not anything inherently bad about the Empire; they just need to get rid of some of their more repulsive practices.

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 07:46 AM
I don't mean to refute anything said before in this thread, but I want to defend my thinking at least, about Avienda convincing Rand not to kneel. The reason I predicted she would take that course is that it will in turn prevent a peace from ever happening. I think refusing to kneel will enrage Tuon and cause her to continue her course of agression against the nations in Randland after the last battle. I was hoping this would in turn cause the nations to come together, as they did in the Aiel war, and demolish the Seanchan.

I know it isn't likely and I think Terez's solution is the most sensible, but I hate the Seanchan. I have hated them since the first appeared and everything I've learned about their culture has caused me to hate them more. I want them to suffer total annhilation, with no mercy and no quarter. That being said, I know it won't happen. One can wish though.

To me its not just the damane and dacovale. Its the entire structure of their society that is sickening, with their stupid rules of conduct between regular people and people of the blood and high blood. You can't even look a person of the blood in the eye? Their entire culture is disgusting. I don't want them coexsiting with the people of Randland in any way.

Terez
11-15-2010, 07:49 AM
To me its not just the damane and dacovale. Its the entire structure of their society that is sickening, with their stupid rules of conduct between regular people and people of the blood and high blood. You can't even look a person of the blood in the eye? Their entire culture is disgusting. I don't want them coexsiting with the people of Randland in any way.
Tuon has already made steps toward accepting Randland traditions and ideas about these things. It need not be so bleak, especially with Mat on board.

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 07:53 AM
I don't think anyone should have to assimilate into any function of the Seanchan culture. If they leave everyone alone and let them live their lives and don't force them to behave like worms under the boots of the blood then fine.

Their entire rank system needs to be scrapped. When Perrin and Tylee were trying to get the forkroot and they had to kiss the ass of that stupid functionary? That was obscene. There needs to be a degree of equality.

finn
11-15-2010, 08:07 AM
Actually, the Karaethon Cycle appears to contradict the Seanchan version of the Karaethon Cycle, brought across the ocean with Luthair Paendrag. The Essanik Cycle is a different thing altogether.

Huh, I never knew that.

I don't think they contradict each other. They can both easily happen. Kneeling to Tuon is a simple gesture. It's important to her, but the kneeling itself doesn't mean she commands him. True but given what the empire currently stands for, I think Rand would have trouble with that despite the stability it offers. It's too high a price when you consider the damane and dacovale.

The strongest of the two is clearly the binding the nine moons part. I really doubt she'll be collared though. I think Mat would have a hissy fit. I suppose it could happen before he arrives, though.
Yes, that's how I see that happening. Tuon attacks but finds herself confronted by Rand, Perrin, Gareth Bryne, Ituralde and practically every bloody army there is. She gets taken, Egwene puts the collar on Tuon herself. Mat saunters in, sees what's up and yells bloody murder.

Mat: "Tuon!! Noooo! Uncollar her, right this minute!"
Egwene: "Oh shut up Mat!"
Elayne: "Do you know who this is?"
Nynaeve: "Do you know what she said about you??"
Teslyn: "Mother, I do be thinking you should be listening to Lord Mat-"
Egwene: "Mat, this is the Seanchan Empress. Now sit over there quietly and let me deal with her or I'll have Gawyn thump you."
Gawyn: "Er.. I know I'm a blademaster now but can I sit this one out?"
Elayne: "Ooh, make her do those skylights again. Also, Fortuona too silly a name. Let's call her Mimi."
Mat: "Blood and bloody ashes mixed with mother's milk in a cup!"
Bode: "I'm telling Ma you said that!"
Nynaeve: "Matrim Cauthon, you are the most woolheaded, irresponsible, foulmouthed-"
Mat: "That's MY WIFE you've got channeling there. Unhand her AT ONCE!!"
*silence* *Bela neighs softly*

That scenario would piss me off though. I want her to come to the realization herself that the whole thing is wrong, not be forced into it by being collared.
It may nevertheless come to that. Right now she's all "the White Tower is doomed". A sharp lesson may be the only thing that convinces her she's in the wrong here. She completely lacks any empathy with the damane, when she could so easily become one of them. For instance, I don't see Elaida changing Tuon's mind about how she's treated, do you?

HunterOTS
11-15-2010, 08:08 AM
@Terez- Anyway I probably shouldn't turn this into a Seanchan bashing thread. I'm sure you're right or close to it on the outcome of the entire situation. My personal sentiment is that I dislike the Seanchan and find their culture offensive but that doesn't affect what will happen.

WinespringBrother
11-15-2010, 08:18 AM
Ugh. That is indeed distasteful. I can see the Aiel returning to their service to the Dragon, but not to the Seanchan. The Seanchan do not treat their "servants" as honorable, while the Aiel do. And their repulsive practices are what differentiate them from the Wetlanders. For all the order they bring, they are no better than the Whitecloaks or the Sharans for the price they extract from their version of law and discipline. They have totally lost Hawkwing's dreams of a peaceful land. They need some new prophecies to reshape their purpose if they are intent on conquering the Wetlands. Perhaps Elaida can serve some useful purpose for a change.

I can see a treaty between them, assuming the Seanchan avoid the blood feud spoken of.

One problems both the Aiel and the Seanchan have is they way they deal with their male channelers. That will definitely have to change, and I think Rand will definitely have something to say in that regard.

Terez
11-15-2010, 08:53 AM
Ugh. That is indeed distasteful. I can see the Aiel returning to their service to the Dragon, but not to the Seanchan.
But, chances are Rand is not going to be hanging around. He'll either be dead or in seclusion from the looks of it. They have to serve someone.

The Seanchan do not treat their "servants" as honorable, while the Aiel do.
Yes, I know this. The implication is that things would change - obviously the Aiel would never consent to being treated like that, and it would be far from honorable (and honor is, after all, the point).

Zaela Sedai
11-15-2010, 08:55 AM
I'm really interested to see how Mat changes the Seanchan, because he will. Their noble society is his worst nightmare. There is no way he is going to conform to it. I really hope we see it in aMoL

Terez
11-15-2010, 08:56 AM
I'm sure we'll see the beginnings of it - we already have, in a way - but I doubt we'll see much detail unless Brandon does the outriggers. Which I really hope he does.

The Angry Druid
11-15-2010, 10:09 AM
No one cares.

There's not anything inherently bad about the Empire; they just need to get rid of some of their more repulsive practices.

Any society that bases it's power on slavery and torture is inherently evil. Don't kid yourself.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 10:49 AM
Any society that bases it's power on slavery and torture is inherently evil. Don't kid yourself.

THIS.


I'm sure the Southern Planter class had some redeeming qualities too...but they were still evil.

TankSpill
11-15-2010, 10:59 AM
Any society that bases it's power on slavery and torture is inherently evil. Don't kid yourself.

I certainly agree. The entire Seanchan infrastructure is focused on the damane/sul'dam relationship. The power of the Empress comes from her sul'dam and damane. Her power is literally proportional to the power of her channeling force. I think the entire society on this side of the Aryth Ocean is going to make some major changes. Perhaps 'Old Seanchan' will stay across the seas, while 'New Seanchan' will be more inline with how we've seen Tuon treating Beslan and with her learning experiences on this side.

Also, I agree that while I want to see Tuon realize the evil-ness of slavery all on its own account, I do believe there are going to be more drastic events that somewhat force her to reconcile (such as being collared). Remember, Leilwin is on her way to the White Tower - she will be able to tell Egwene who the Empress is, which may possibly give Egwene the advantage she would need to collar Tuon.

Davian93
11-15-2010, 11:05 AM
Egwene collaring Tuon? I dont know how sucky you could make a book but that would be up there with pure crappiness.

David Selig
11-15-2010, 11:06 AM
So, the solution. Aviendha convinces Rand that he must accept the Consolidation. The only way to keep the Seanchan from bloodily swallowing everything up in the future is to allow them to peacefully swallow it all now.

In order to convince Tuon to do away with the practice of collaring channelers and slavery, she will have to be offered something in return. The offer of completing her Consolidation might just do the trick.

The practice of da'covale can be abolished, or perhaps limited only to criminal offenses like Suroth, with no hereditary implications. The Aiel can fill that gap, earning honor through their service to the Empire.

Interesting idea, but I think it requires too much change in mentality from both sides. I don't see the Randland rulers agreeing to submit to the Empress even if she abolishes slavery and leashing of marath'damane. I really can't see Egwene, Perrin, Elayne or someone like Tenobia just submitting to the Empress, even if Rand tries to force their hand. I can't see the Aiel changing drastically so quickly too.

Fortuona will probably refuse such a deal too. The damane are the foundation of the Imperial power after all. If she releases them and lets the Westlands channellers stay free, what guarantee does she have her rule won't be overthrown in a few years by an army made of channellers? Even if she is convinced somehow, let's say with some ta'veren help, the other Seanchan high nobles will probably make an alliance to depose her for betraying the core values and traditions of the Empire.

TankSpill
11-15-2010, 11:08 AM
Egwene collaring Tuon? I dont know how sucky you could make a book but that would be up there with pure crappiness.

Just using it as an example of Tuon being forced to realize the harshness of her culture's ways, not trying to say "I think this will happen," or "I hope this will happen."

Davian93
11-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Just using it as an example of Tuon being forced to realize the harshness of her culture's ways, not trying to say "I think this will happen," or "I hope this will happen."

Oh, I know...sorry, I ddint meant to derail the conversation.

Its pretty clear that gentle persuasion is not going to change Tuon at this point. Something pretty serious needs to happen for her to break her mental block towards demane.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 11:21 AM
Egwene so abhors the collar that it would take a book to develop a plot line where she ends up collaring Tuon. More likely, someone else in Seanchan will discover it, or perhaps one of the new Tower damane will say something. Once it's out, they'll do a test because Tuon is somewhat reasonable.

But my main point is that there just isn't enough book time left to solve the whole problem. I do think this is going to be one of those unresolved plot lines, at least insofar as Seanchan dominion or how they deal with the Aiel. I think the future Aviendha saw will be prevented, but that we won't know the real future until the outriggers (if they do them, and even then, maybe not the whole thing).

Tuon is still so happy about being a great damane trainer that I'm worried her conversion to anti-a'dam is going to seem contrived.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 11:23 AM
Interesting idea, but I think it requires too much change in mentality from both sides. I don't see the Randland rulers agreeing to submit to the Empress even if she abolishes slavery and leashing of marath'damane. I really can't see Egwene, Perrin, Elayne or someone like Tenobia just submitting to the Empress, even if Rand tries to force their hand. I can't see the Aiel changing drastically so quickly too.

Fortuona will probably refuse such a deal too. The damane are the foundation of the Imperial power after all. If she releases them and lets the Westlands channellers stay free, what guarantee does she have her rule won't be overthrown in a few years by an army made of channellers? Even if she is convinced somehow, let's say with some ta'veren help, the other Seanchan high nobles will probably make an alliance to depose her for betraying the core values and traditions of the Empire.
Great points. This makes me wonder if someone is going to find the secret to hacking the a'dam. That's the only way I can really see the sul'dam /damane issue going away, because of exactly what you said about mentality.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 11:29 AM
The practice of da'covale can be abolished, or perhaps limited only to criminal offenses like Suroth, with no hereditary implications. The Aiel can fill that gap, earning honor through their service to the Empire.

I'm skeptical that this specific practice has to be abolished, although, I think with Mat there, it probably will be. But even so, unless channelers are made da'covale simply because they are channelers, I think Tuon can argue that da'covale are simply a unique cultural institution much in the same way that the Aiel and the Sea Folk have their own. I grant that it is a distasteful one but unless the Seanchan unfairly beat or torture their da'covale I don't see why Tuon would have to (note I didn't say should) surrender on this point in exchange for the Consolidation.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 11:33 AM
I'm skeptical that this specific practice has to be abolished, although, I think with Mat there, it probably will be. But even so, unless channelers are made da'covale simply because they are channelers, I think Tuon can argue that da'covale are simply a unique cultural institution much in the same way that the Aiel and the Sea Folk have their own. I grant that it is a distasteful one but unless the Seanchan unfairly beat or torture their da'covale I don't see why Tuon would have to (note I didn't say should) surrender on this point in exchange for the Consolidation.
Maybe the compromise is that people can only be da'covale (or damane, for that matter) for a year and a day.

It's still slavery, but more palatable. Like cheese sauce on vegetables.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 12:28 PM
I think this may be a first, but I completely agree with Terez's theory about the resolution to the Seanchan and Aiel plot arcs.

Grig
11-15-2010, 12:28 PM
If it was up to me they would be named after Rand and Aviendha's heroes
...
Tarna Alanna al'Thor
...


While we're at it, Elayne should name a boy Daved Hanlon al'Thor. Or Doilin Mellar Trakand? Except he only threatened and failed. /facepalm

The Seanchan didn't attack the Aiel. It was the other way around. All they had to do was be responsible and not attack the Seanchan.

They leveraged their status as not part of the Dragon's Peace to justify their attacks and deceptions. Were they part of the Dragon's Peace, as an honor-based society they would be less likely than the others to break the Peace.

Just using it as an example of Tuon being forced to realize the harshness of her culture's ways, not trying to say "I think this will happen," or "I hope this will happen."

You don't seem to understand Seanchan at all. They are aware at how harsh the culture's ways are. They think this is a positive, as anything that is not Proper is squashed mercilessly. She is soothed by watching damane be broken, ffs.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 12:32 PM
She is soothed by watching damane be broken, ffs.Or Sanderson believes she would be, at any rate. I'd call that sentence the single most out-of-character one he's written, and that chapter near the top.

(Egwene's soothed by Nynaeve being broken, too.)

Icarium
11-15-2010, 01:02 PM
What if Tuon is offered the use of the Oath Rod to make all Seanchan channelers swear fealty to the Empress? Assuming their society survives the repercussions of this and they learn to link this will actually make them stronger than before. They would have to promise to stop treating the channellers like animals, obviously, to help in the Last Battle and not to attack other countries later. Plus, it might be worthy just for the fit Egwene is sure to have upon hearing the idea. :)

As for Rand kneeling - what if it happens in private? That way Tuon won't be able to gain political capital from it and the prophecy would (technically) be fulfilled. Maybe even with a loophole like announcing that Rand is to be a Senchan vassal after the Last Battle. Since Rand doesn't expect to survive it, he might agree. if enough Seanchan see the power of circles and how the White and Black Towers help save the world, it's possible they might rethink their stance on channellers.

The Aiel have to change, no doubt. That's why I don't believe the theories that Nakomi is an agent of the Shadow. The Aiel remaining stuck in the past shoudl be in the Shadow's interest as this will most likely lead to them being embroiled in endless wars. Plus, there is no point to them returning to the Waste, seeing how much of Randland is sparsely populated and belonging to no country.The future of the world depends on both the Aiel and the Seanchan stopping the clinging to the past.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 02:00 PM
Egwene collaring Tuon? I dont know how sucky you could make a book but that would be up there with pure crappiness.

Egwene is already on Rand's sh*t list and in the process of going on Perrin's sh*t list, she might as well go for the trifecta.

I have to say, brilliant strategy on behalf of the White Tower; let's get all three ta'veren, the three people preventing the world from falling to the Shadow, to hate us.

Edit: While they're at it, they should cover all bases and have some random Aes Sedai insult and switch Faile, one of the Warders to rough up Tam al'Thor, and finish by locking up Olver in one of the Tower's cells.

finn
11-15-2010, 02:28 PM
Egwene collaring Tuon? I dont know how sucky you could make a book but that would be up there with pure crappiness.

Why would that make it crappy? Egwene hates the Seanchan. She collared and left Renna to be discovered in retribution for her own captivity. Tuon has already had the WT attacked once, is about to do so again and her assassins nearly killed Egwene & Gawyn. It's all coming to a head imo.

WinespringBrother
11-15-2010, 02:29 PM
Since it is unlikely Tuon has actually channeled yet, the a'dam will be nothing more than a silver necklace to her anyway.

Hopefully Egwene has got some intel from Joline and co. to help her deal with the Seanchan. Not that I expect a calm reaction when she learns that Mat married the enemy ruler, but that is only fair based on her experiences. Egwene will have to come to some accomodation with them, somehow. It will obviously be tough, since the WT and its new allies/partners (the Sea Folk and Wise Ones) have all had nothing but hostile dealings with them.

Grig
11-15-2010, 03:54 PM
Or Sanderson believes she would be, at any rate. I'd call that sentence the single most out-of-character one he's written, and that chapter near the top.

True. I did find it quite upsetting, as I really did like the character. But she did train damane before. And she's not an idiot. It's obvious that damane training is harsh, but she considers it harsh and necessary. That's the main part I was trying to point out.

Since it is unlikely Tuon has actually channeled yet, the a'dam will be nothing more than a silver necklace to her anyway.

She trains damane. That puts her on equal ground with the other sul'dam we've seen collared, who didn't channel themselves before but were still affected by wearing the necklace.

David Selig
11-15-2010, 04:13 PM
Or Sanderson believes she would be, at any rate. I'd call that sentence the single most out-of-character one he's written, and that chapter near the top.

(Egwene's soothed by Nynaeve being broken, too.)
I don't see much difference between this sentence and this one from Winter's Heart:

Winter's Heart, Chapter 14

Actually becoming a sui'dam was unthinkable, of course, but she found as much enjoyment in training damane as in training horses, and she was as good at one as the other.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 04:34 PM
You don't see the difference between "training" and "breaking"?

Consider that until she met Mylen she had in all likelihood never seen a damane who was not subservient and begging to be leashed, and even Mylen was already broken. While Tuon is no doubt trained in the harsher techniques Renna employs, there is no indication that she has ever had to use them, much less that she was "soothed" by watching "stubborn damane sent to the ground writhing in pain." This isn't the place for it, but numerous other aspects of the chapter were off, and for the most part it seemed because it was written as if from the perspective of someone of a completely different class. The things noticed are not the things a Seanchan High Blood would notice, much less the Empress; the thought process does not follow that which we've seen both internally in KOD and from Mat's perspective in several books.

But there is a definite difference, both in kind and in scope, between "training" and "breaking." It's kind of like the difference between the way Egwene uses positive reinforcement with Meidani to achieve compliance and obedience and the way she physically and emotionally tortures Nynaeve for same.

David Selig
11-15-2010, 04:50 PM
I'd think even the Seanchan born damane need some measure of breaking to get perfectly obedient and start thinking of themselves as just objects to be used. The comparison with horse training is telling. She just don't see damane as human in any way.

Sure, there's a stretch from this line to getting soothed by watching damane being broken, but I don't think it's that big. Every new damane which is broken means more power for the Empress after all, and they are not really human in her mind, so they have to be broken for their own good.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 04:57 PM
I love how differences with the Seanchan are supposed to be resolved in half a book, if even that, but Elayne consolidating Andor, one of more than a dozen nations in the world, oh no, we have to waste 4 or 5 books on that storyline. This would almost be comical if it wasn't so sad.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 05:10 PM
Elayne is one of six main characters. Tuon, sadly, is not. However, she is an absolute monarch. If she chooses to treat with the Dragon and requires for that the steamhorses to run on time, by the Light the steamhorses will run on time.

alleluia_cone
11-15-2010, 06:15 PM
Elayne is one of six main characters.

I've never been able to get over this. The books would have been at least 15% better if Aviendha was one of the main characters instead of Elayne.

Crispin's Crispian
11-15-2010, 06:16 PM
Elayne is one of six main characters. Tuon, sadly, is not. However, she is an absolute monarch. If she chooses to treat with the Dragon and requires for that the steamhorses to run on time, by the Light the steamhorses will run on time.

Plus Seanchan was potentially a story to be wrapped up later. Andor needs to be wrapped up now, and as m'c said Elayne's a main character.

But as I've already said, I don't see much of this being resolved. It's not critical the plot of the final book except as to whether the Seanchan will fight alongside the others in the LB.

Callahan
11-15-2010, 06:27 PM
In Aviendha's vision of the future, there is mention of some troubles between the nations because there is no one to enforce the Dragon's Peace.

What if the Aiel become the enforcers of that Peace instead of those who break it ?

jlrx81
11-15-2010, 07:28 PM
Has anyone considered this whole "Raven Empire" and "Raven Empress"? It could be time that changed the name, or maybe connected to our Prince of the Ravens and Tuon's POV about it being a fairytale if she didn't have to plot against him, or amazing that there is one.

morat'corlm
11-15-2010, 07:36 PM
It could signify that in this world the Seanchan continent was never reunified with Fortuona's empire-in-exile. Perhaps someone across the Aryth Ocean claimed the title of Emp(eror/ress) of Seanchan and sat on the Crystal Throne, and the name of the Ebou Dari empire changed to accommodate that.

Or it could mean exactly the opposite, that the Empire was reunified but that it needed a new name since it was no longer limited to Seanchan.

Cloudrunner
11-15-2010, 09:38 PM
Well it seems weird but here I am posting on Theoryland after an almost 10 year absence. I got lost in the migrations and never recovered my username. I come here 4 or 5 times a week but never have time to post... anyway here I am. :eek:

I think the future is very malleable right now. The rings are acting somewhat like the Accepted test ter'Angreal. As we have seen the future shown in the tests is not very accurate but close enough to be a bit spooky. The future Aviendha sees is but a possible future and not necessarily a "something has to be done or we are doomed" thing. Yes, Aviendha is critical to the future of the Aiel. The Wise One's have been on her case since TSR. But... maybe this is a plot device to give background to some things she will be required to do that would make no sense for her to be involved in otherwise. It increases her gravity in the main plotline beyond being a love interest.
Maybe this was RJ's way of making her a real player - someone who has alot to say about how the future is shaped. Truthfully, would she have even thought about the possibility that the Aiel might deteriorate to the point of being honorless nomads? She worried that they might grow soft not honorless. Maybe now she can wonder if the Aiel insisting on remaining warriors is not such a great thing?

jana
11-15-2010, 09:46 PM
Maybe this was RJ's way of making her a real player

I agree with this. I've said it in other threads but Aviendha didn't have much of a point until now. I loved her, but... she really didn't. She didn't really make Rand see the Aiel as his people.

Now she could be on of the most important characters of the series.

Dewairah
11-15-2010, 09:53 PM
Hence me being kinda bummed that so many things have been introduced and then given no time to be given a proper story arc with a good resolution.

For example no we have this whole thought about how aviendha is going to be this major player and will in some ways help define the future of randland - yet we've only got 1 part of one book (ToM) where we discover this and whatever else BS can cram into what is likely to be the most jam-packed and hectic of all books in the series. I'd really have liked for Aviendha to have been given some more time on the page to identify the problem (which was done in ToM) then formulate a plan/get things in motion and hopefully resolve the issue of the future of aiel/randland.

I doubt this will be done well in a book which is going to feature so much other stuff (Black Tower/Tarwins Gap/Demandred/red veiled pointy teeth aiel etcetc)

I suspect her resolution will be like one chapter and will somehow involve the dragon's peace.

I feel shortchanged. :(

ShadowLord
11-15-2010, 10:30 PM
Sorry, but I'm a 63 year old black man. For me, Seanchan folks need to all burn in hell.

Rand al'Fain
11-15-2010, 10:45 PM
About the only things I have a real problem with, are of course, how the Seanchan treat those that can channel, as well as rulers who did not out right grovel to their "oh so high and mighty" ways and ended up having their minds shattered.

ZaderGru
11-15-2010, 10:48 PM
The reason the Aiel are so strong is because they have Strong Leaders.

Only the strong could survive the trip to Rhuidean.

Now most Aiel know the past, suviving the Ter'Angreal, is no longer a sign of a good leader.

To survive in the future, any person wishing to be a Leader will have to see "That which Avi has seen."

I believe there is good reason to draw parallel's between The Jenn Aiel calling the all the Chief's to Rhuidean and Avi's trip through the Ter'Angreal.

The Aiel, or I should say Avi, has been given a possible future, continue on believing your only purpose in life is to fight the Seanchan, and your entire race will be wiped out.

A new way of life and honour must be found. This is going to take strong Leaders, and only Leaders who have passed the test of the new Ter'Angreal will be jugded fit to lead.

Perhaps the Aiel have been going about things the wrong way. For Ten books we have seen the Aiel trying to convert Rand to the Aiel lifestyle so He would see himself as one of them, and so save as many Aiel as was possible.

Maybe they should have been studying him and trying to adapt to his way.

While it would seem that Rand has not included, The Aiel, in the Dragons Peace. It may be, that to survive as a race, they have to choose voluntarily to follow it.

Terez
11-16-2010, 06:33 AM
Sorry, but I'm a 63 year old black man. For me, Seanchan folks need to all burn in hell.
Slavery sucks; we all get it. But people who are raised in societies with slavery are basically brainwashed to believe it's justified. Doesn't mean they can't change.

Nei
11-16-2010, 07:02 AM
Actually, what worries me about this is that it might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. :/ That's my general apprehension about 'visions of the future'.

Ishara
11-16-2010, 07:39 AM
Sorry, but I'm a 63 year old black man. For me, Seanchan folks need to all burn in hell.

If it helps, I'm a 28-year old Canadian, and I agree. ;)

What is killing me is that everyone who swears they hate the Seanchan practice of damane and da'covale propose that Tuon being collared is an actual solution. I don't mean to Godwin the entire thread, but ride with Hitler much people? That's called an eye for an eye and it doesn't work. It's not worth people like Egwene lowering themselves to the Seanchan level to "make a point" that may never be made. We're talking about changing the foundation of an entire Empire here, one that spans culture, nationality and continent. That takes years of active effort - not one moment of turning the worst of their society onto themselves.

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 07:53 AM
Slavery sucks; we all get it. But people who are raised in societies with slavery are basically brainwashed to believe it's justified. Doesn't mean they can't change.

Look how difficult it was to change in the USA where there was a group opposing it. I don't think there are any abolitionist Seanchan. All of those morons walk around sputtering "May she live for ever" whenever they even think about the empress. They're all so brainwashed that it will take a massive change to alter their thinking. The fact that last battle is imminent doesn't even change their stupid idea that they must reclaim Randland. I don't know what could possibly happen that will be big enough to fix the Seanchan. Even Matrim Cauthon isn't lucky enough to make them into decent human beings.

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 07:58 AM
What is killing me is that everyone who swears they hate the Seanchen practice of damane and da'covale propose that Tuon being collared is an actual soultion.

I hate the Seanchan and I don't think collaring Tuon is a solution at all. I don't think anything will change the Seanchan, at least short term. You could introduce the idea that slavery is wrong to them and it would take at least a century for them to embrace that idea enough to change it. Then there is the rest of their society's disgusting habits that need to be overcome too. I don't think there is any peaceful resolution with them. They need to be soundly defeated and sent back across the Aryth. Let them turn their warful ministrations towards reclaiming the land they've already spend a thousand years subjugating.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2010, 08:47 AM
The fact that last battle is imminent doesn't even change their stupid idea that they must reclaim Randland. I don't know what could possibly happen that will be big enough to fix the Seanchan.They could run smack on into their own prejudice.

Lews Therin Telamon was the leader of the forces of the Light, the one to whom they were all sworn. The one to whom the ancestors of the Seanchan were sworn. Rand is LTT. If the Seanchan actually follow their own rules, they owe him their allegiance. If they do not follow their own rules, then they are oath breakers, precisely what they accuse the Randlanders of being.

Mind: I don't expect anyone to actually come up with this piece of sophistry. But it would be logical, wouldn't it?

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 08:48 AM
Haha yea I suppose it would be logical but I don't think any of them would see it that way, even if it were pointed out to them.

Terez
11-16-2010, 10:47 AM
What is killing me is that everyone who swears they hate the Seanchen practice of damane and da'covale propose that Tuon being collared is an actual soultion.
lol. Try not to generalize too much.

GonzoTheGreat
11-16-2010, 11:00 AM
lol. Try not to generalize too much.Hey, this is Theoryland! In general, we do not discourage generalisation.

Terez
11-16-2010, 11:01 AM
But since generalization often leads to slavery, we should probably avoid it here.

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2010, 12:42 PM
Look how difficult it was to change in the USA where there was a group opposing it. I don't think there are any abolitionist Seanchan. All of those morons walk around sputtering "May she live for ever" whenever they even think about the empress. They're all so brainwashed that it will take a massive change to alter their thinking. The fact that last battle is imminent doesn't even change their stupid idea that they must reclaim Randland. I don't know what could possibly happen that will be big enough to fix the Seanchan. Even Matrim Cauthon isn't lucky enough to make them into decent human beings.

I'm sure several things could happen:


Sul'dam channeling becomes widely known
Someone hacks the a'dam
Mat convinces Tuon to change, and she forces the Empire to outlaw slavery
etc.

The problem is that any effect of these things has to take time to percolate and/or cascade down the chain to the culture. Either that, or in the case of a'dam hacking, the Seanchan have to be defeated in battle.

There's no time for this in the remaining book.

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 12:48 PM
Definitely far too little time to develop it in a credible way. But I'm sure the outriggers were to deal with part of that.

Terez
11-16-2010, 12:54 PM
The only thing I can see making it happen on the spot is Tuon channeling. In that case, she'd probably have to agree to free the damane after the Last Battle; it would be difficult to pull it off this late in the game otherwise.

HunterOTS
11-16-2010, 01:01 PM
It would be nice if in a moment of extreme duress Tuon channeled something she had not admitted to herself that she had seen the weaves of from one of her damane.

Crispin's Crispian
11-16-2010, 01:19 PM
It would be nice if in a moment of extreme duress Tuon channeled something she had not admitted to herself that she had seen the weaves of from one of her damane.

She and Mat will get into a fight, and she'll be so angry that she'll try to will something bad to happen to him (nothing too bad...just a spanking or something). His medallion will grow cold, he'll look at her accusingly, and she'll have the revelation.

MistCloud
11-16-2010, 01:19 PM
I think someone is going to "hack" the adam -- why else would RJ/BS have put in the point that Cadsuane has people right now trying to do that. Also, Tuon might start down the right path re the damane if Setalle Anan reveals to her that she was once Aes Sedai. Tuon admires Setalle; this revelation would have to shake her to some degree.

solitas777
11-16-2010, 01:25 PM
Aviendha can prevent the war by getting the Dragon to negotiate the release of the wise ones. That was the impetus of the war. Then she can find a purpose for the AIel. They could be enforcers of the Peace of the Dragon, thus as enforcers they would have to abide by it.

Seanchan are a danger now but they will become relegated with time. Give male channelers enough time to repopulate and together Female and Male channelers, working together could change everything. Also, the relatively free societies of Randland will out innovate and create more than the Seanchan with its rigid societal structure.

War is inevitable against the Seanchan. If the nations of Randland fight now they will lose since they are not unified, will be weakened by the war with the shadow, and don't have enough channelers and ways to defeat the a'dam. The Seanchan are as fanatical and rigid in their thinking as the Empire of Japan was. Give the nations a century and I could see a one power nuke going off Seander created by Males and Females.

finn
11-16-2010, 02:06 PM
What is killing me is that everyone who swears they hate the Seanchen practice of damane and da'covale propose that Tuon being collared is an actual soultion.
I thought the reason given was the prophecy about binding the nine moons. Anyway, it's not like it hasn't been tried. Problem is, as repulsive as it might sound, it still doesn't work. Sul'dam who were captured were repeatedly collared by the Kin and yet refused to admit they can channnel, see weaves or be held by the a'dam. What's needed is for the secret to become known first.

alleluia_cone
11-16-2010, 02:19 PM
Honestly, given the time restrictions, I wouldn't be shocked at this point if Tuon saw an owl fly straight into a tree trunk and this "omen" caused her to change her entire world view.

I have what I call a "cheesy detector" by which I try to guess what long running conflict in the book will be resolved in a cheesy way. I have to say, the whole Seanchan, Mat, Egwene, damane thing? Very high on the detector. In my mind, there is a lot of potential for this seemingly intractable problem to be solved in the most unsatisfying and artificial fashion imaginable. The allotted time that been given to the solution to a problem that first came to light in TGH already doesn't bode well for how well this will be pulled off.

Callahan
11-16-2010, 02:20 PM
The only thing I can see making it happen on the spot is Tuon channeling. In that case, she'd probably have to agree to free the damane after the Last Battle; it would be difficult to pull it off this late in the game otherwise.

I believe she already has channeled.That was my impression of the ambush outside that "Hell" in maderin I think.

David Selig
11-16-2010, 02:30 PM
Honestly, given the time restrictions, I wouldn't be shocked at this point if Tuon saw an owl fly straight into a tree trunk and this "omen" caused her to change her entire world view.

I have what I call a "cheesy detector" by which I try to guess what long running conflict in the book will be resolved in a cheesy way. I have to say, the whole Seanchan, Mat, Egwene, damane thing? Very high on the detector. In my mind, there is a lot of potential for this seemingly intractable problem to be solved in the most unsatisfying and artificial fashion imaginable. The allotted time that been given to the solution to a problem that first came to light in TGH already doesn't bode well for how well this will be pulled off.

I suspect something like that too. There's just no time left for this to develop naturally.

Unless the resolution of all this is mostly left for the Outrigger novels.

greatwolf
11-16-2010, 03:13 PM
I'm enjoying this arguement, but I'm not really satisfied yet that aviendha saw the future. If there was a terangreal that enabled one to see the future in the aol, I doubt the sasg would have occured. Or the war of the shadow for that matter.

I think its more a case of her seeing what she feared or what she needed to see. But I'm not sure.

LordScimitar
11-16-2010, 03:36 PM
I think most people are missing one of, if not THE, most important details of Tuon realizing damanes are treated wrong, and that is:

Setelle Anan

If you'll recall, she was a member of the Kin that was believed, and then confirmed, to be a former Brown Ajah that was burned out due to an accident with a ter'angreal. Furthermore, she can't control damane. Once again showing the difference between stilling and burning out--but that's a separate subject.

Tuon had a GREAT deal of respect for her. However, Tuon never realized just who/what she was. She genuinely enjoyed her company and the lack of her rank meant nothing to Tuon. Which also greatly speaks to the influence she's feeling if even to Tuon rank was put aside.

I'm not dismissing Mat's influence.

I'm very open to Rand doing just what he did to the Aiel: Just flat out announcing it to everyone as well as showing the truth. He did it to the Aiel whom he liked--why not to the Seanchan? Then, they either acknowledge their Empress, who is a near GODDESS to them, is only slightly above a dog and only because of their usefulness--or they have to rethink what they...think.

However, I do believe Setelle Anan will play a part. Even if it's just Tuon talking about her, and Mat spitting out that she was a former Aes Sedai that got burned out.

Mark my words: Setelle Anan's existence will play a major role in Tuon's attitude.

dominominic
11-16-2010, 03:36 PM
I'm enjoying this arguement, but I'm not really satisfied yet that aviendha saw the future. If there was a terangreal that enabled one to see the future in the aol, I doubt the sasg would have occured. Or the war of the shadow for that matter.

I think its more a case of her seeing what she feared or what she needed to see. But I'm not sure.

I've read speculation that something Aviendha did to the ter'angreal adapted it to show the future.

Nafro
11-16-2010, 03:41 PM
I'm enjoying this arguement, but I'm not really satisfied yet that aviendha saw the future. If there was a terangreal that enabled one to see the future in the aol, I doubt the sasg would have occured. Or the war of the shadow for that matter.

I think its more a case of her seeing what she feared or what she needed to see. But I'm not sure.
I agree with this 100%

LordScimitar
11-16-2010, 03:58 PM
Problem with the "Dragon Reborn kneeling before the Empress":

1. It's quite possibly bonkers
2. They view Hawkwing as the highest of the high.

Let me break it down:

#1-Odd that this prophecy is only on that side of the Ocean. The army that Ishamael sent over there as it's pretty clear Ishamael was active during Hawkwing's time and controlled him. I would not be surprised at all if it's fake. That Ishamael created/twisted it. I do not take it as a "true" prophecy. Especially since he's going to "bind her to serve him".

I know many won't believe this. But, it's possible that it simply isn't true.

#2-Rand's new sword? I believe it's Hawkwing's. And Tuon will recognize and be impressed.

Furthermore--Mat blew the horn, and he could again, in front of the Seanchan. Then, Hawkwing rides out--and acknowledges HIM.

To the Seanchan...whoa. Not much more can blow them away. It'd be near to what the Islam world would feel if Mohammad made an appearance, or to the Christian world Jesus. Until Hawkwing bows to Rand. And this will cause them to weep with their mistake in thinking he must bow to the Crystal Throne. Especially if Hawkwing reveals the truth of what happened to him and how Ishamael tricked him. And if right there he were to say something against Damane--huge blow to the Seanchan.

morat'corlm
11-16-2010, 04:10 PM
But, it's possible that it simply isn't true.Whether it's true or not doesn't really matter if the Seanchan believe it is and make it a condition of their assistance.

You're right that the simplest resolution is that Mat appears at the next meeting between Rand and Tuon, picks up the Horn the EVA liberated from the Tower basement, and uses Hawkwing to settle the matter, though.

Justice will likely be a part of the formal surrender of Randland to the Empire.

jana
11-16-2010, 04:36 PM
Mark my words: Setelle Anan's existence will play a major role in Tuon's attitude.

I'm still holding onto this too. Tuon's still absent a Voice too. Though I always thought Setalle would be her Truthspeaker.

satuon
11-16-2010, 04:51 PM
Or Sanderson believes she would be, at any rate. I'd call that sentence the single most out-of-character one he's written, and that chapter near the top.

(Egwene's soothed by Nynaeve being broken, too.)

Yes, I found this very problematic, because Tuon is one of my favorite characters in WoT. She promised to be an awesome character, because she was very high-ranking but at the same time a very humane and decent person.

Jordan stresses this (that she's humane) by writing how she has cultivated her "stern mask", that she needs it because her eyes are too big and liquid brown and she was always worried that when she smiled she looked like a mischievous child.

As for the damane, in Winter's Heart she is shown to have a very positive attitude towards them. Yes, she doesn't think of them as of persons, but she shows great affection - after all, dogs are owned too and don't have civil rights, but most owners don't beat them just because can - in fact, most owners treat their dogs quite nicely. Here's just two quotes but they illustrate the point:

Before leaving, Tuon gave a few orders concerning the damane’s diet and exercise. The sul’dam knew what to do, just like the other twelve in Tuon’s entourage, or they would not have been in her service, but she believed no one should be allowed to own damane unless they took an active interest. She knew the quirks of every one of hers as well as she knew her own face.


And when Mat tells her his made up reason for visiting Teslyn:

“I was looking for a Windfinder, High Lady,” he said hastily, making a leg and thinking as fast as he ever had in his life. “She did me a favor once, and I thought she might like something from the kitchens. Some pastries, or the like. I didn’t see her, though. I suppose she wasn’t caught when . . .” He trailed off, staring. The stern judicial mask the girl always wore for a face had melted into a smile. She really was beautiful.

“That is very kind of you,” she said. “It’s good to know you are kind to damane. But you must be careful. There are men who actually take damane to their beds.” Her full mouth twisted in disgust. “You would not want anyone to think you are perverted.” That severe expression settled on her face again. All prisoners would be executed immediately.

Again, note how she "melts into a smile", then "that severe expression settled on her face again" - i.e. she puts conscious effort to seem meaner that she really is.

Now compare with that:
The floor was covered in woven mats where stubborn damane were sent to the ground, writhing in pain. It would not do for them to be harmed physically. Damane were among the most important tools the Empire had, more valuable than horses or raken. You did not destroy a beast because it was slow to learn; you punished it until it learned.
Fortuona crossed the chamber to where a proper Imperial Throne had been set up. She commonly came here, to watch the damane being worked or broken. It soothed her.


The way its written is out of character, because the narration is supposed to follow the thought processes of the character, and the way it is described makes Tuon appear a much colder person. But Tuon's whole point as a character is to contrast her good nature with the meanness of the empire she commands. I always thought that she would be a bit like Khrushchev - she might not make the Empire into a place of freedom, but at least she would destalinize it - sort of a change in the degree of meanness.

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:54 PM
The way its written is out of character, because the narration is supposed to follow the thought processes of the character, and the way it is described makes Tuon appear a much colder person. But Tuon's whole point as a character is to contrast her good nature with the meanness of the empire she commands. I always thought that she would be a bit like Khrushchev - she might not make the Empire into a place of freedom, but at least she would destalinize it - sort of a change in the degree of meanness.

I know someone who broke horses for a living. They never ever considered it mean. I'm just saying...

jana
11-16-2010, 04:57 PM
The way its written is out of character, because the narration is supposed to follow the thought processes of the character, and the way it is described makes Tuon appear a much colder person. But Tuon's whole point as a character is to contrast her good nature with the meanness of the empire she commands. I always thought that she would be a bit like Khrushchev - she might not make the Empire into a place of freedom, but at least she would destalinize it - sort of a change in the degree of meanness.

You summed that up a lot better than I've been attempting to. The details seems small but they were really painful for me. It started in TGS with her feeling like the creature was licking at her ankle when she looked at Nynaeve.

I believe she already has channeled.That was my impression of the ambush outside that "Hell" in maderin I think.

No she hasn't. Not sure where you got that idea from the fight. It was known long before then that Selucia and Tuon are very good fighters. And if you mean Thom's reaction, it's a secret that Selucia is Tuon's bodyguard. Thom was promising not to tell anyone.

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 04:58 PM
What is killing me is that everyone who swears they hate the Seanchan practice of damane and da'covale propose that Tuon being collared is an actual solution. I don't mean to Godwin the entire thread, but ride with Hitler much people? That's called an eye for an eye and it doesn't work. It's not worth people like Egwene lowering themselves to the Seanchan level to "make a point" that may never be made. We're talking about changing the foundation of an entire Empire here, one that spans culture, nationality and continent. That takes years of active effort - not one moment of turning the worst of their society onto themselves.

I advocate her being collared. So that she can realize that if she is not an animal then neither are the Damane. Then everyone gets uncollared and we can all have a carebear funtime.

You seem to assume that people want the collaring to be permanent. She just is not getting the message. Some change must happen and the best place to start it would be at the top. The fastest way to show her that damane are not animals is to show her THAT SHE IS ONE.

Ishara
11-16-2010, 05:00 PM
But since generalization often leads to slavery, we should probably avoid it here.

LOL


If you'll recall, she was a member of the Kin that was believed, and then confirmed, to be a former Brown Ajah that was burned out due to an accident with a ter'angreal. Furthermore, she can't control damane. Once again showing the difference between stilling and burning out--but that's a separate subject.

Tuon had a GREAT deal of respect for her. However, Tuon never realized just who/what she was. She genuinely enjoyed her company and the lack of her rank meant nothing to Tuon. Which also greatly speaks to the influence she's feeling if even to Tuon rank was put aside.


Mark my words: Setelle Anan's existence will play a major role in Tuon's attitude.

Minor nitpick: Setalle was not a member of the Kin. She just knew of them and their ability to channel. On the other issue, mmmm. I think not. Her attitude towards those who can channel is so thoroughly in grained that to her, if she maintains her level of respect for Setalle, it will be only because she can no longer channel. She is NOT like Egeanin who felt a sift spot towards Elayne and Nynaeve and then had to reconcile that with her ingrained feelings about women who could channel. She will not (and frankly, as Empress, cannot) change her mind.

I've read speculation that something Aviendha did to the ter'angreal adapted it to show the future.
I'd say that she certainly altered it, and that it's whether the future is real (like the past was) or simply what could be.

I'm still holding onto this too. Tuon's still absent a Voice too. Though I always thought Setalle would be her Truthspeaker. Strangely, I agree. She's kind of perfect for the job, but she'd NEVER take it if they maintain the practice.

jana
11-16-2010, 05:01 PM
I know someone who broke horses for a living. They never ever considered it mean. I'm just saying...

But she never showed any sign of revelling in seeing them in pain before. Now she casually thinks about them writhing. I always saw her as the least terrible, and I pictured her as using pain as a last resort. I considered her the opposite of Renna.

"You see, the a'dam can be used to punish, though that is seldom done."

tiredofbuttons
11-16-2010, 05:02 PM
But she never showed any sign of revelling in seeing them in pain before. Now she casually thinks about them writhing. I always saw her as the least terrible, and I pictured her as using pain as a last resort. I considered her the opposite of Renna.

Very fair. The pulling away in disgust was annoying too. I agree that she has been very slowly jumping the shark through the last two books.

Cloudrunner
11-16-2010, 09:47 PM
I just wanted to point out that anyone that complains about compressed plot lines shouldn't blame the author(s). The WOT fan base was continually complaining about the length of the series and wanted it sped up... so here you have it. If you don't like that there is only 1 more book to get this resolved in then we only have ourselves to blame.

When RJ got sick he caved in on his long held stance that it was his story and he wanted to write it the way he had planned it. He promised to wrap it up because he didn't think he had the time left to complete the series in the way he had planned to.

I think we got a break when they decided to break it up into a final 3 volumes. Personally, I wouldn't have minded if the series had extended another 2 or 3 books.:D

satuon
11-17-2010, 03:16 PM
Lol, I shouldn't have posted before reading the entire book, it seems. When I complained that Tuon was out-of-character, I hadn't yet reached the epilogue and there's one sentence mentioned rather offhandedly in Graendal's POV that might explain a lot:


She was in her elegant manor house a few leagues from Ebou Dar. Now that Semirhage was gone, Graendal had begun placing some strings around their new, childlike Empress. She'd have to abandon those schemes now.


So what were those schemes? Knowing that Graendal's style is to use compulsion, maybe she had been tampering with Tuon's mind.

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 03:52 AM
I don't think she had used Compulsion on Tuon. Doing so would have required channeling in her presence, and that would be a bit dangerous, what with all the protection surrounding the Empress.
But she may have used Compulsion on people around Tuon, and used those to give pass on advice and suggestions.

Jonai
11-18-2010, 03:55 AM
Couldn't she have just hid her ability to channel and reversed the flows?

GonzoTheGreat
11-18-2010, 04:33 AM
Maybe, maybe not. I think that if it were that simple, it would be used a lot more than it is. Which suggest to me that it is not that simple; there are likely some pitfalls of which the Forsaken are aware.

morat'corlm
11-18-2010, 05:03 AM
there are likely some pitfalls of which the Forsaken are aware.For instance, it's effective. Maybe too effective.

jana
11-18-2010, 05:04 AM
We didn't get much of Beslan but he seemed way too gung-ho to me. I mean, once he made the oath in TGS I expected him to keep it but... he just seems so psycho about his Seanchanness now

morat'corlm
11-18-2010, 05:21 AM
I thought about bringing up Beslan but I just don't want to condemn the kid, especially after what happened to his mother. He's making the best of a situation he's utterly unprepared for.

Still, that makes him suspicious in itself, as a twist Darkfriend. His behavior is sort of like Ingtar's, in a way.

Landro
11-18-2010, 05:23 AM
We didn't get much of Beslan but he seemed way too gung-ho to me. I mean, once he made the oath in TGS I expected him to keep it but... he just seems so psycho about his Seanchanness now

Beslan is a very impulsive character. When Mat escaped Ebou Dar he had a lot of trouble convincing Beslan to be out in the public and be seen while other rebels fired food stores. He would have much rather been among the others and be part of the action. It think Mat being Ta'veren was essential in convincing him not to.

Altara has always been a weak country and Beslan is smart enough to know that without the Seanchan he would never have been able to control more than 5% of it. Tuon treated him with respect and made him a very good offer**. It's not so surprising that his impulsiveness made him accept it right away.

**She made him an offer he couldn't refuse :D

jana
11-18-2010, 05:52 AM
Beslan is a very impulsive character. When Mat escaped Ebou Dar he had a lot of trouble convincing Beslan to be out in the public and be seen while other rebels fired food stores. He would have much rather been among the others and be part of the action. It think Mat being Ta'veren was essential in convincing him not to.

Altara has always been a weak country and Beslan is smart enough to know that without the Seanchan he would never have been able to control more than 5% of it. Tuon treated him with respect and made him a very good offer**. It's not so surprising that his impulsiveness made him accept it right away.

The two things are completely unrelated in my opinion. He wanted to help. In a lot of ways he's just like Mat. I don't see how his wanting to help people translates to him becoming deeply entrenched into any random thing that he comes across.

I understand why he did what he did and I don't have a problem with it in itself. The thing I have a problem with is that it was only a month or so ago that he was uncomfortable about the Seanchan attacking the White Tower and "deeply troubled" by Tuon wanting to "subdue the Dragon Reborn." Now he's fraught with worry that the "enemy" can Travel to the Empress. It wouldn't have been suspicious for him to stay silent.